Weapons need impact points

[Acronym]

One thing I've noticed in the TW games is the weapons are not in 3d space. The weapons are assigned values and different "rock paper scissor" attributes(spears beat cav, sword beat spears), but what would be nice, and is possible with a 3d engine, is if weapons actually take up space on a 3d plain. So if any swordsmen get in close to spearmen, the spearmen are gonna get ripped apart, yet if a unit has 12ft spears then they should be able to hold the other unit from getting in close.

I'm not an xpert programmer, so I don't know what kind of number crunching collision detection would be needed, but more collision detection would make larger shields and longer spears serve a better purpose.

[some_totalwar_dude]

very good idea. This would ad more realism to the game. The one thing I missed in Medieval is the spear/shield wall.
But this way you could make a realistic phalanx, one that (almost) couldn't be beaten with a headon attack.\
also the effect of a broken Phalanx could be better simulated than before.

[Acronym]

Exactly what I had in mind, since I am a greek/helenistic freak I really want to see hoplites/phalanxes properly simulated.

[Stormer]

yes this would be great but what the hell would be ale to get near theses hoplites http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

longer spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Michael the Great]

I hope CA are listening to this...I've seen they did listen to most of the things we asked for,if this would be included,it would be THE BEST of all of them.

[Hakonarson]

I thought that's what the "hold formation" function was for - it simulated a shield wall by increasing teh defence at eth expense of decreasing the offence - seemed to work OK for me.

[econ21]

I am not exactly sure what "impact points" are, but some of what you mention is reflected in MTW in the higher charge bonus of spears. This means that they are better in the initial stage of a melee, worse later. The rank bonus for spears and pikes also captures some of the benefits of a well formed "phalanx".

I've been wondering about the higher charge bonus for spears, though, because it encourages them to charge even when on the defensive (eg vs horse). This does not feel right, at least for most medieval spears which were not well drilled and defensive (I know the Swiss pikes closed with the enemy fast). I'm going to try modding away the charge bonus for spears (similar to STW) to encourage more defensive use of spears. The cost of this is that I would lose the "impact factor" you mention. I am not sure I am not bothered about this, however, as I can't actually find much mentioned of Medieval formations using swords as their primary weapons (so I'm going to mod them out).

[Acronym]

I am not exactly sure what "impact points" are

What I mean by impact point, is basically where the tip of the spear impacts. So if a phalanx is charging at an enemy with small shields, if the weapons actually take up space on the 3d plain, then the chance of stabbing an enemy is greatly increased. But if they go up against an opponent with farely large shields(romans), then not as many casualties will occure, but the phalanx will be doing more "pushing", throwing back the enemy depending on the number of men are in formation.

Or if the phalanx is holding ground, the length of the spears will prevent an enemy from getting in close. We do not see this in STW and MTW, where the spearment basically use their spears like swords, fighting in eachothers face.

I think if Romans were to go up against Macedonians, it should take a lot of work, creating gaps, and pilum volleys before they can get in close and hack away the phalanx.

[Dionysus9]

Great idea, but I think you have identified the problem-- too much number crunching to give all weapons a 3d existence.

The solution? Give spearmen a bonus "to hit" at, say, 10 feet. No bonus at 5 feet. and a minus to hit value at less than 5 feet from the enemy.

Also, give units a "reach", currently it doesnt seem like spears or halbs have any better reach than a swordsmen. They still have to walk up toe to toe with the enemy before they can make an attack.

Spears should be able to sit back and jab at swordsmen.

So, I think CA could incorporate your idea with various bonuses and penalties give for the type of weapon being used and the distance from/to the enemy.

[Michael the Great]

Also,units regroup way to fast,they turn in formation to fast too,and when a unit is hit by let's say,javelin or arrow fire,it regroups so quickly that u cannot disorganise it and charge in....this is what roman legionares did,throw javelins,disorganise enemy,then charge through the gaps,this HAS to be included as well in Rome:TW,because they only used their javelins for a short time before making contact with the enemy.

[Acronym]

Also,units regroup way to fast,they turn in formation to fast too,and when a unit is hit by let's say,javelin or arrow fire,it regroups so quickly that u cannot disorganise it and charge in

Agree. There should be more disorganization. If a theban phalanx(50 rows) hit's a spartan phalanx(8-12), the theban should actually push back and disorganize the other. Or as you said for the romans throwing pila. The spears should disorganize and confuse the enemy at least a little.

[Michael the Great]

Thy devs should also make the correct animations for fighting in a phalanx with spears/pikes,by fighting over each-other's shoulders(If they're gonna improve the graphics and include motion capture,why not include this? it will make it verry realistic).
Also,units that are on hold formation,how I've said earlyer should turn around and march or charge at a much more slower pace than units on engage at will.

[Shahed]

Very good Idea. Imagine the day when we will see every man as a 3d animation each weapon can have multiple impact points on the body. A bit like the shooter games, but Total War like.

Anyway for MTW very good idea.

[Oberiko]

I'll be honost, I think that we're getting into the realm of unnessecary detail.

Dionysus9 got it on the nose, simply give the types of weapons different attack ratings at various ranges.

As for specific hit zones on units (if I read that correctly), I don't see how, considering we don't control the units melee combat directly, that would differ from simply taking the offense and defense stat, doing some formula to them, and then adding or subtracting a random number with each hit. It would certainly be more CPU friendly.