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View Full Version : Creative Assembly Limiting Mini-map info and line of sight



DthB4Dishonor
05-09-2003, 15:16
Hail Everyone,

A person made a reference in another thread which reminded me of a feature I would like to see tweaked a bit. The minimap IMHO gives too much information. Currently what you cant see with your field of vision you can see on minimap. I think the mini-map should be tweaked so that now mini-map only shows what is in your units line of sight. Also this would enable units to hide on downslopes of hills and mountains. It would also make scout cavalry more important. I'm just curious what you guys think about this feature being tweaked?

RTKPaul

Stormer
05-09-2003, 17:35
totally agree like napolieon could of done with a mini map at waterloo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

it does ruin it iv tried to hide units behind slopes but its imposible its like theres a spy plane which is sending info to both teams of postions i say do what you said with the line of sight thing or just get it out alltogether

Monk
05-09-2003, 17:40
yes i agree that the mini map should be tweaked

some_totalwar_dude
05-09-2003, 17:56
Quote[/b] (Stormer @ May 09 2003,18:35)]totally agree like napolieon could of done with a mini map at waterloo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

it does ruin it iv tried to hide units behind slopes but its imposible its like theres a spy plane which is sending info to both teams of postions i say do what you said with the line of sight thing or just get it out alltogether
I had that to when I set up a custom battle. I was on defence and placed some cavalerie upon a forest hill. I started the battle and the first thing that the enemy does is march it's cavelerie in a straight line to my "hidden" cavalerie. I mean in they weren't even suposed to see it if there weren't any trees on the hill, because of the angle of the slope.

CBR
05-18-2003, 12:54
Ok late reply but anyway.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have mentioned it in other threads too but Im used to repeating myself..

Yes minimap should only show what your troops can see, not the what the camera high up in the air can see. Right now you actually can see troops with the camera that isnt shown on the minimap...at least some times.

And I dont care if the camera is high up in the air. If your troops cant see anything neither should you.

Even if enemy units is in the line of sight you shouldnt be able to have them on the minimap nor see name and number of men by moving your cursor over them. It should depend on range.

At a certain distance you should not see them on minimap, see unit banners and no unit info. This means you might have difficulties counting enemy units and of course what faction they belong to. From a distance you can see that its cavalry but what type of cavalry is not as easy...all horses look the same http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

And that is what I want, more uncertainty. I dont want to sit back and have precise info on enemy units and where they are located. Yes on a normal steppe map its not a problemand its just straightforward action from the beginning. But on a large map with lots of terrain it should be easier to hide units and a lot more difficult to count enemy units.

Ranges..hmm maybe 10k range before they show up on minimap and same with info when moving cursor onto units and banners...I dont know..maybe 8k only. Just something that forces you to think a bit more and recon the area with lighter cav. From a distance you shouldnt be able to tell the difference between say 8 units in column and 3 units in a wide line or if they are feudal knights or mounted sergeants etc

CBR

The_Emperor
05-18-2003, 14:32
I agree about this.

Line of sight needs to be tweaked. And maybe it would also help if the AI couldn't see my units hidden in the woods

(the ai always marches directly into my ambush force in the woods when defending and ignores my main army)

Sorry just having a Sunday rant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nowake
05-19-2003, 13:21
well, I have another thing buzzing in my mind: the border forts ... It has no logic to show each and every detail from other province ... The role of spies is decresed a lot, and this is not a good thing, in my opinion ...

Mithrandir
05-19-2003, 14:30
Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ May 19 2003,07:21)]well, I have another thing buzzing in my mind: the border forts ... It has no logic to show each and every detail from other province ... The role of spies is decresed a lot, and this is not a good thing, in my opinion ...
The Border forts are supposed to gather information from travellers which crossed the surrounding regions (I think that was more or less the description of STW).

I liked the shinobi's rle in STW, though it was sometimes to easy, now in MTW the spies seem less strong in making a province rebel, but they have other uses like revealing vices ,giving information about unit etc. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

The minimap is fine as it is imho, but I'm used to a bit more arcade than reallife combat sims, if you want to hide units, you can use forests...but then again, sme more options to lure the enemy into traps would be nice too...therefore I vote neutral http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Shahed
05-19-2003, 14:47
Briefly, line of sight should be restricted to the line of sight of the units. This would allow ambushes in other than forest environments. It's realtively simply to conceal 100 Bedou on the side of a large sand dune, while the enemy marches by.

As such I believe it would add to the game if you had to take strategic points on the map in order to gain better vision of the battlefield. It would make the battles more interesting if you could lay ambushes behind hillocks, or dunes, provided the enemy did not have line of sight in that area.

More uncertainty will add to more creative tactics.

Line of sight can be an option which can be disabled such as fatigue, ammo etc.

Good Idea.

longjohn2
05-29-2003, 17:21
Previous TW games have only shown units on the minimap that are visible if you put the camera above one of your own units. There's plenty of scope for ambushing behind hills, or hiding in fog or duststorms

Also the AI is not aware of units it cannot see. It is however smart enough to figure out where an obvious ambush might be located. You'll often see it sending out units to scout. Sometimes to it'll just discover an ambush accidently as it just happened to be going that way.

some_totalwar_dude
05-29-2003, 21:11
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ May 29 2003,18:21)]Also the AI is not aware of units it cannot see. It is however smart enough to figure out where an obvious ambush might be located. You'll often see it sending out units to scout.
I saw the AI send its cavalery to my ambush 3 times in a row in a custom battle, this was on hard both players being Byzantines (Identical armies). They just went to my ambush in a straight line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Magyar Khan
06-01-2003, 18:59
Longjohn i hope u will understand once the difference between the noobie sp player or dev like yourself in reaction of teh AI or what a solid, well playing TW player would feel, do and react.

Accept that the radar LOS as we have now isnt good and should be improved. it could be done in many other wargamers so i am sure u know how to calculate line of sights yourself.

CBR points are good and just a few (read: lessthanahandfull) would disagree.

I cant see why most of your posts have a defensive nature towards what u and your buddies have programmed instead of thinking forward and try to improve the things that can be improved.

Your Universal Khan

KukriKhan
06-01-2003, 22:31
Now, that's a sure-fire way to keep me coming back to answer questions and concerns, if I am a developer:

Call me a defensive, little-talented, ignorant to input n00b, who should just quit explaining stuff and DO what he's told by his betters.

Sheesh. The nerve.

Good thing those CA guys have thick skins.

Catiline
06-02-2003, 12:12
Interesting notion of what a defensive post is you have there Magyar...

longjohn2
06-02-2003, 22:50
Defensive. That's not being defensive :-)

I'm sorry if you don't feel that I'm trying to take the game forwards. I spend many hours thinking about how to do that, but unfortunately I can't really discus upcoming games here.
What I do try to do is explain how existing games work, and the rational behind some of the decisions. You may or may not like them. Sometimes whether or not a particular design decision makes sense depends on what group of players you belong to. The needs of longtime MP devotees are different to those of novice TW players.

Unit visibility is an area where we try to strike a balance. Only showing units on screen that can be seen by your units can result in units appearing and disappearing as they move. Many would find this confusing, and many more would find the effect displeasing. Instead we introduced the restricted camera mechanism. This lets you scout forwards a little from your position, but still restricts what you can see.
The minimap is there to give you some information about what is going on in the areas of the battlefield you're not currently looking at. It only shows units that can be seen by any of your units, although we take the unit's viewing postion from slightly above it, rather than the view from ground level. Think of this as them sending a scout forward to a more advantagious position. The gameplay reason is that given that the player's camera is in the air, it's difficult to judge the field of view of a ground level unit. Making the unit's point of view similar to the player's stops players being surprised by enemy advancing over hidden ground that they'd assumed their units could see. This is a trade off between strictly realsistic LOS and playability. However, it is still possible to hide units behind any decent sized hill, and to sneak up through dust storms or fog.

CBR
06-02-2003, 23:30
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ June 02 2003,23:50)]However, it is still possible to hide units behind any decent sized hill, and to sneak up through dust storms or fog.
But where is the fog in MTW? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But what about the unit info you get when moving the cursor over enemy units? Cant that depend on range? I did see that once in a winter battle (big blizzard) I suddenly spotted a couple of enemy units but didnt get any info.. I love that uncertainty and Im damn sure a lot of others want it too.

Yes the minimap is nice...its just that its too nice. You can count number of units with minimap alone and easily spot enemy movement, concentrating forces in a 4v4.

Yes I guess its only really something that is important in big battles (read Multiplayer) but would it be a lot of work to cut the colour of enemy units..even make minimap dependable of range. Just as an option like with the restricted camera we have now?

And yes thinking of novice players is important too but giving them options for realism like we already have now, only expanding it a bit, should be good enough.

I'm of course a "hardcore" tactical battle player and love to zoom down to a unit and see height differences to gain even small advantages and move camera up again to get a better view http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Total War battle engine is the best combat engine I have seen and I really miss the things that will give the game more depth and historical accuracy... yes I know its only a historical themed strategy game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but there really is a lot of potiential in it.

CBR

FesterShinetop
06-02-2003, 23:48
I like the minimap as it is now, but I can also imagine that MP games have other standards than Single play so it would be nice if we could be able to choose from a few options Or maybe even have only 3 or so options: 1 easy, 2 moderate and 3 hard so all players can choose their own level of difficulty

I am very curious about the mini-map in RTW though. They can not restrict settings there too much I guess. With the big maps you might even miss each other entirely and spend a few hours looking for each other http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Balamir
06-03-2003, 09:31
I have somewhat different ideas than you guys. I think that, the units far away shouldnt be invisible. I think that they should be only a cloud of blackness, making you think "ah there's an army there". as stated before, I'd like the info to be shown when the units are close enough. This would set us free of bugys like appearing and disappearing as you stated longjohn. Its just like a real battle. What I dont want is being able to know where to go by the minimap. I'd say, when a unit is close enough to read its details, it should show up on the minimap. That option gives us both the option of checking how your other units are doing once they have collided, and it still gives us players that nice feeling of scouting. For example, if I have a unit of alan mercenaries, and they have a hill in front, you should restrict the camera to get on the hill and look downwards at it, and the units behind them shouldnt appear on the minimap as long as the alans dont see them, which would be when they are on the other side of the hill.

Another thing I hate, is that even if you are too far away, you can know who the king is with that concept of square flags. It just seems so absurd to me because, you just KNOW who the king is from 10 kms. For that problem once again, you can make us understand who the king is once they are in the circle where we can understand their details. That would save us multiplayer vterans from a stupid sniper shot from a serpentine to our general. Believe me its very frustrating. being shot from kilometers far away, where usually you shouldnt even know how many men there is in the enemy army, you can simply pinpoint the kings unit... I tell you what, that idea is not working mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif