Carthage in RTW

[Longshanks]

Anyone have any ideas or heard anything on how the Carthaginian faction will be handled? Historically about 2/3 to 3/4 of Carthage's forces were foreign mercenaries. Only a small core of the army was recruited from among the Carthaginians. The rest were mercenaries, or conscripts levied from subject peoples. Lybians, Greeks, Gauls, Iberians, Balearic slingers, Mauretanians, Celt-Iberians, Numidian calvary, even some Italians served in the Carthaginian Army at one time or another.

About Carthage's Army (http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/army-carthage.htm)

So will Carthage be forced to rely more heavily on foreign mercenary recruitment via a tavern or some similar structure? Or will the foreign troops who historically fought for Carthage be available to build by Carthage through barraks and such? Or will the game stray somewhat from history in that regard and have Carthage's buildable forces as largely native Carthaginian units?

[Leet Eriksson]

a special building where they recruit one unit of mercenaries(full unit for example:40,60,100)per year would be great(for balancing reasons,we don't want a full stack of mercs apearing near rome in the 3rd or 4rth year of the game)also to counter the support cost carthage should have alot of income generating structures or structures that generate large income.

[22(ReAl II]

I think the mercenary cap per year (season) should be five units. Because the point of mercenarys is to be able to hire fast and then kill them off fast because of their high support costs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

P.S. faisal your beating me in posts cause of a 60second flood thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Hakonarson]

I guess it will very much depend how CA are going to set the start points for factions.

Ideally (historically) in 264BC Rome should be able to build 2 full legions in a year without any bother, and Carthage recruit whole mercenary armies.

I imagine Carthage just won't get buildings and/or troop types that are "native", or perhaps many of their "mercenaries" will be considered "native" - especially the Liby-phoenecian spearmen.

I can see several ways "around" the problem.

[Catulus]

Many sources say that Spain was important source of manpower (and wealth) to Carthage after it lost Sicily. On the other hand Numidian cavalry changed sides on the whim of Numidian kings.

I think that land ownership (or influence perhaps) and alliances should have more to do with "mercs" than any generic building. After all, Rome acquired her Italian auxiliaries through alliances not through her purse.

[Hakonarson]

Carthage neverrealy "had" sicily though, and there were only a couple of Numidian kings who changed sides - although they made a heck of a difference. Strictly speaking the Numidian Kings were allies and not mercenaries, although there were also Numidian mercenaries serving both Rome (later on) & Carthage independantly of the Kings.

Rome didn't use mercenaries much at all and that's the difference that's being talked about - how will the different natures of the Roman and Carthaginian armies (citizen vs mercenary) be reflected in RTW.

[71-hour Ahmed]

have them territory based to make the Carthage fight to hold onto land and make the game better.

[Catulus]

Yes, well not all Roman troops were citizen (like most of the Italians at early period) and not all Carthaginian mercenaries (as such). That was my point. And yes, should have talked about "Carthage’s foothold in Sicily".

[Hakonarson]

Actually almost all Roman troops WERE citizens - the Latins and other italians being granted "citizenship without the vote" (I forget the latin phrase) at an early stage - ie they had all the obligtions of "real" Romans including service in the army, but did not get to vote for any public offices.

2nd class citizens perhaps, but citizens none-the-less http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The number of Carthaginian citizens serving in their armies was miniscule in the 2nd Punic War with only a few as body-guards/advisors, etc to teh generals. IIRC the last time the citizen "sacred band" served was in the 270's. The third Punic War was fought by citizens of course, but then it wasn't much of a war

[Nelson]

Legionaries were enfranchised citizens until Gaius Marius introduced the capite censi (head count) into the ranks. He did this because the middle class was not large enough to field the large armies Rome began to need so frequently. As they had no taxable property the state had to provide their arms whereas the land owning soldiers prior to Marius owned their own equipment, the exception being the public horse for some of the equites. This single change in the composition of the army had the most profound effects for the future of Rome and the Republic.

[Catiline]

THe capiti censi were enfranchised citizens aswell. It's simply that the electoral and political system was weighted to make their votes worthless.

[Nelson]

Quite right Catiline. I should have referred to enfranchised citizens as enfranchised citizens of means. The proletarii were indeed citizens. Fifth class IIRC.

[Spino]

Speaking of mercenaries, given that Carthage's armies were overwhelmingly mercenary in composition I don't see how Carthage should be able to build more than a small handful of faction-specific units. Nearly every mercenary unit Carthage can hire should be hireable by most of the other factions in the game or in the very least to the Successor kingdoms in Egypt and the middle east.

It would also make sense to lift some restrictions on mercenary units to make Carthage more competitive with other factions who rely on professional soldiers or conscripts. The inability to merge two depleted mercenary units of the same type should be overlooked under certain circumstances.

[Hakonarson]

I think raising mercenaries is going to have to be culture-specific.

For example Rome never raised any African Spearmen that formed the main strength of hte Carthaginian battle line even when they owned Africa, and neitehr did the Numidian Kingdoms that you'd have thought would have access to them.

So perhaps a building for raising mercs that Rome only gets the 1st level of while Carthage gets 2-3 levels or something like that?

Or Rome might only get to raise a single merc unit per season per province, while Carthage can raise whole armies of mercs? Whereas Rome can raise whole armies of citizens while Carthage can only raise single units?

[Catulus]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ May 11 2003,17:31)]Actually almost all Roman troops WERE citizens - the Latins and other italians being granted "citizenship without the vote" at an early stage
That's not true. Only quite small area enjoyed Roman citizenship (even a half one) Cumae, Capua and Ostia most notably. The rest of Italy was connected to Rome by separate treaties that brought security in exchange for troops. Rome did not have any direct authority over these areas or their inhabitants. This didn't change until 92 BC in the social war. After that (full)citizenship was granted to all Italians south of Po - this effectively brought down the Comitia Centuriata system.

[Hakonarson]

92 BC is "quite early", but you haven't really contradicted me - the Capuans etc are "other Italians" - I wasn't meaning all of Italy.

Many of these places may have had non-voting citizenship (civitas sine suffragio) as early as 300BC-ish - Campania may have had it granted during or at the end of the first Samnite War 343-341BC.

The absorbtion of Campania seems to have provoked the Latins to revolt, and the Latin war of 340-338BC saw Rome victorious and again it absorbed the defeated by placing colonies of Romans and defeated Latins in conquered territory, granting many of them full citizenship, and civitas sine suffragio to others.

The social war was about granting FULL citizenship - that is essentially granting the vote. The allies who revolted already had civitas sine suffragio - indeed by this time the granting of "Latin" citizenship (ie civitas sine suffragio) was pretty much standard in conquered areas that Rome trusted reasonably.

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Hark knows Rome

In the 1st Punic War - Carthage's citizen warriors came out to play.

By the 2nd - the "local troops" were mainly Iberian and Lybian "volunteers". Throw in the Celts from up north and the Horse from Numidia and Spain and Gual and you have a good mix. Toss in some Oliphants.

By the 3rd... its ugly... Merc-Central.

.................
So - Carthage will have a natural Population Pool from Iberia and the Tunisia area - other than that - its mostly Mercs.

///BW

[shingenmitch2]

Hak,

while you are quite right that rome SHOULD be able to raise 2 legions per year -- no way does that happen in this game.

That would be the equivalent of buying 32 decent units per year -- 2 full armies, if each army is supposed to = a legion. (approx. 4 turns though i know that will be running different too) In terms of game balance, that is just out of whack.

[Hakonarson]

I don't know Shingen - if all other nations are able to raie troops by army instead of unit then it seems reasonably balanced.

[Shahed]

Yes it simply means restructuring the recruitment system. It's worth it IMO.