RTW, Germanic Faction?

[Stefan the Berserker]

I think it's too late to make any big claims on RTW in general, but perhaps some things could be put into a Add-on or something else.

Both, the Germanics and the Celts have their Origin in the Aryan Invasion of 1800 B.C. .The "native Europeans", the Megalith Cultures have been pushed into the north (Megalith's Decandands today: Samens, Samojans, Estonians and Fins). This causes that the Celtic and Germanic Cultures were quite equal to each other (the Romans at first did not see any diffrence).

The Aryans were Steppe People coming from the Territory of the nowdays Iran (yes Dubya, Axis of Evil). They were deeply Influented by their Neighbours who held high Cultures, which were the Babylonians, the Persians and the Hindi. Some pieces of these Cultural Elements will play a important role later...

The Introduced Troop Type of the Aryans was this:

http://www.jadu.de/mittelalter/germanen/pages/uebung_jpg.htm

A mounted Spearchucker. Primitive, but effective. Through the Megalith could not breed and not ride Horses AND couldn't work with Metall they were simply slaughtered. The Mounted Spearchuckers used a hit&run tactic which made them quite effective for their time. While the Celts "forgot" this old Unit and the Hit&Run Strategy with Time, the Germanics used it further. The Movie "Druids" with Christopher Lambert shows them quite well...

http://www.melbar.de/Blankwaffen/Schwerter/Schwerter/M2046.jpg

This is a Sword of Type between 1800 B.C. and 500 B.C. used by Celts and Germanics. Neat, huh?

Later this ones became more important and replaced the old one ->

The Sax:
http://www.melbar.de/Blankwaffen/Schwerter/Schwerter/j2044.jpg

The Germanic Sword:
http://www.melbar.de/Blankwaffen/Schwerter/Schwerter/A2049.jpg

The Celtic Sword:
http://www.melbar.de/Blankwaffen/Schwerter/Schwerter/A2127.jpg

The Sax was invented by the Saxons and spread as a succsessful Tool around the Germanic Tribes. It was only sharpened at one side and used twiche: As a Weapon and as a normal Knife. It was for example used by Butchers or just in the Kitchen. The Sax was the "Peasant Sword" and mostly used by poor Farmers going to War...

The Germanic Sword is a development from the Celt's Iron Sword. Later on, the germanics also developed Steel and continiously improoved it. When they learned how to produce Damascus Steel in Dark Age, the germanic Sword became Stronger than the Gladius of the Romans.

The Celtic Sword is an indirect copy of the Gladius, through Gauls learned to produce Iron from Massala (Greek Colony) the todays Masseiles. The Main Diffrence is that the Celtic sword is larger and has this sweet little Man as the Grip. In Fact the Celts gave the Sword Grips the Shape of their Gods... Perhaps this explains the expression "Soul of the Sword" I read in the Finn MacCool Legend...

The Sax, Spears and Axes (all things used in daily life) were used by Germanic Peasants as Arnament. They also used Wooden Shields, which became a real Classic and were indeed used until Gunpowder reached the Battlefield. I think all know it:

http://www.schwert-shop.de/HelmRuestung/Schild/Wikingerschild/schild

But Germanics weren't only rude Bastards going to War (and they were very good at this point) but also CULTURAL People. As we found this:

http://www.archlsa.de/sterne/bilder/scheibe1.vs.jpg

The Germanic Priests and the Celtic Druids had a high knowledge of the Stars, even if the Dish looks Dork but it is indeed important. The Celts and the Germanics had no Calendar, a roman Invention, so their Priests watched the Stars and with their Changeing Position and formations the knew how late it was in the year. This Way they could tell the Farmers when they should seed (Similar happened 3000 years before the Germanics in Egypt, the Nileflood was announced through observation of Stars).

The "Thing" needn't be explained I hope, through it is the most important Element of Germanic Culture. "Germani consilium habet" is a sentence that you will oftenly read in roman sources. It was the Council of the Villagers and decided who would be the Village Chieftan and how the region should act in politics. How that developed? Easy, I guess you all did it: Political Discussions in Pubs. Imagine the Discussions and their Results would be gouverment of a small region, then you know what the Thing is.

Like the "Democratic Vision" in early rome moralised the Romans, the Thing was great involver of Germanics to their Duke's politics. As divine Law, the Result of the Thing which was held by Presence of Aristocraths and Priests, it was obviously that all followed the track that was once decided.

Runes were first used as Oracle Signs. When the Romans reached Germania the Germanics developed them to a writeable Script which is saved until today. Click on the Link to get it as Font here (saved as "älteres Futhark"):

http://www.acolina.de/content/download/down5.htm

They also have acient Greek Script as Font, so perhaps a good Link for Rome-Friend too.


So I'd please CA to put in following things to RTW...

Starwatch - Religious Building for Gauls, Germanics and Brits

Thingsquare - Exclusive Building for Germanics with bonus on Loyality of the Region and Unit Morale

Mounted Spearchuckers - Unit for Germanics

Edeling Infantry and Edeling Cavallary - Units for Germanics (these are Chieftans -> Knights of the Germanics, ELITE)

A small Campaign with Arminus - Varusbattle and forth...

Employ some Runes as Symbols for Germanic Units... In Battle there are Flags for the Units to seperate them more easyly, so why not put some Runes in for Celts/Germanics? Would be Realistic since it were, as said, Oracle Signs...

------------------

I'd hope ShadeFlanders was here, he could add a lot of this else...

What do you say?

http://www.ica-d.de/srv/chr/pic/m0009aaa.jpg

[AvramL]

Much of your info their isn't entirely correct, largely that dealing with the Megalithic peoples and their disappearance due to the arrival of Indo-Europeans (or whatever they're called, certainly not "Aryans" though), simply put, almost nothing is known regarding that event. The Celtic culture first appeared in central Europe around 1000 B.C. or so (not positive on that) and quickly spread, meanwhile the Germanics or Teutonics have their origins in Scandinavia/Northern Germany and emerged as a distinct culture during the late Bronze age.
Here is a page full of useful links on these people
http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/lyfja/ghp/germanic.html

The first thing I'll do when I get RTW is to adorn the sacred oaks with the Roman slain in honor of Tiwaz the Wuldorfadur

[Stefan the Berserker]

Your Post is correct, AvramL. The "Celts" appeared first in 1000 B.C. and Germanic Tribes are indeed "Norse" and prefered to settle in Denmark and Northern Germany and Northern Poland.

"Aryans" is the Name of a Tribe who lived in the Territory of the today's Iran and are seen as the Indo-European/Indo-Germanic people who invaded Europe. Through Hitler has used the Name "Aryans" as beeing blonde-Super-Humans (however he imagined this) they were indeed dark skinned and oriental in culture. The Name Aryans and the whole resarch on Indo-Europeans goes back to Mr. Johannes Bop. It's sad but there is only a few Research on the Megalith and their Heirs... So there is only the few we know today... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Tiwaz the Wuldofadur -> Teiwaz, Tyr, Dien and Tue are also his Names. The Germanic Wargod with just one hand after Fenrir bite him... Immportant note, that this God belonged to the Thurses before he turned an Ase He was the mightiest God in the early germanic Religion, before the Cult of Wotan (Odin, Odur, Wodanaz, Wedan) became dominant.

Do you know Asatru? Seems so... The Tiwaz-Rune means "Way of the Warrior"... What's your favorite Rune? Mines are Ansuz and Gebo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Perhaps they could intigrate some kind of Oracle or Mythic things in RTW... For example that you can increase the Morale of your Troops by sacrifice to the Wargods (Mars, Tiwaz, Seth and all others) or even control the Weather if Jupiter or Wotan are helpful... If included this "Mythic-Gameplay" should be able to be switched on/off in Options Menue...

[AvramL]

My knowledge of Asatru is sadly limited to only what I have read online, I would have to say though that my favourite Rune is Tiwaz.

Have you been to Kalkriese and seen the museum there? It is one of the places I want to visit when I Travel to Germany next summer. You seem to know something about Proto-Germanic language and Religion, so I was wondering wether or not you could comment on something thats been bugging me lately, Germanic tribal names? Is there even any reconstructed names for them or do we just have to go with the Latin names that Tacitus provides us with?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, Arminius is named "Hermann" in German.

Germanic names are combinations of Words and most of them are even still given to us today.

One Example:
Harald. Split it in "Har" and "ald", them you get "Hair" and "old" in translation. So the name means something like "Oldhair".

You can simply make your own Germanic name with giving "Har" another adjective, let's say "Rot" (red). Makes "Harrot", which is quite soundy...

By combination of a Noun and an Adjective of acient german/ medieval English-German-Scandinavian, or by simply makeing the Singular of a tribal Name (Frank, Prus...) you can create Names how the Germanics wore them. Note: the Slavic word "Mir" (Peache) was also oftenly used instead of an adjective.

Some Examples because it makes fun:

Donaumir, Harrot, Rheinard, Canader, Batavar, Rotkarl, Husgurd, Yorker...

So our ancestors made Names like the native Americans... Some shock for the "We-are-the-supirior-Culture-on-world"-Guys. But I think Germanic Names should now be more transparent to you...

Most Historic Germanics are only known in their Latin names, through the early Christian Emperors (heirs of Carl the Great, Charlemagne) started to persecute Asatru's fellowers and destroyed alsomost EVERY Rune-Stone in Germany. A Guy called "Ludwig der Fromme" ordered to eliminate everything Pagan in Germany. Unlike in Ireland the Celtic Texts and acient Songs of Legends, and after the Vikings became Christian the Sagas were written down the German Monks tried that too. They had saved a lot Sources the Germanics made byself, almost all religious Forumaltions of acient Asatru and even the Song of Herman (the Story of Arminius from Germanic point of sight)... But this stupid fanatic Christian has destroyed it, just because it didn't fit in his ideology. I think many guys here in the Community would like to get their hands on the Song of Hermann...

I was in Kalkriese and in Detmold were the Hermann-Monument is... This nice Statue I posted...

Runes are connected to Uesetia, Germanic Meditation which is realitive to the Buddhist/Hindu Meditation. The Runes symbolise Emotions and you try to concentrate on this Emotion symbolised through the Rune to moralise yourself. Tiwaz is a Rune that symbolises the Emotions discipline and wrath, the feeling in Combat. Ansuz is Wisedom, Gebo is Frienship/Love, Sig is Glory, Algis is protection...

If you want to try Uestia, just tell me and I'll post a complete explaination of it in the Monastary...

[AvramL]

Actually, I was asking about the Names of the tribes themselves as opposed to personal names.

[caesar]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ May 22 2003,13:01)]Both, the Germanics and the Celts have their Origin in the Aryan Invasion of 1800 B.C.

This causes that the Celtic and Germanic Cultures were quite equal to each other (the Romans at first did not see any diffrence).



So I'd please CA to put in following things to RTW...

Starwatch - Religious Building for Gauls, Germanics and Brits

Thingsquare - Exclusive Building for Germanics with bonus on Loyality of the Region and Unit Morale

Mounted Spearchuckers - Unit for Germanics

Edeling Infantry and Edeling Cavallary - Units for Germanics (these are Chieftans -> Knights of the Germanics, ELITE)

A small Campaign with Arminus - Varusbattle and forth...

Employ some Runes as Symbols for Germanic Units... In Battle there are Flags for the Units to seperate them more easyly, so why not put some Runes in for Celts/Germanics? Would be Realistic since it were, as said, Oracle Signs...
Few things.

I'd say the Germans and Celts language and aspects of their culture like religious words and ideas came from the iranian/aryan/scythian/central asian type horse tribes.
Certainly celtic peoples migrated from the east, as thier is evidence of celts in poland, but I doubt all celts and germans were originally from central asia.

Considering Rome was captured by celts and celts lived all over north italy, whereas Germans did not, I'm sure they knew what a Celt was and what a German was. But celts and germans intermingled, and banded together in invasions etc etc so at times were indistinguishable. That's why sometimes we dont know if a particular tribe was celtic/german/germanised celt/or celticised germanic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I reckon most of their religious buildings were totems and sanctuaries that didn't really require buildings, though I'm not expert.

Germans were more widely regarded as an infantry people. The certainly was german cavalry (espec nobles)and the Romans later employed them as mercenaries etc, but I'm pretty sure Germans stuck mainly to infantry, mainly spearmen.

[AvramL]

Germanic warriors were just that: warriors, plain and simple, they could fight on horseback if it was advantageous, though most of the time it wasn't and so they didn't. the choice was none the less an often personal one, leading to intermingled cavalry and infantry. There was no clear distinction between the two. Having said that, the majority of germanic armies were composed of levies (the fyrd as the anglo-saxons later called it) not true warriors, and they usually lacked the skill and equipment (namely a horse) to fight on horseback. One also has to remember that at that time, densely formed infantry had little to fear from cavalry unless of course they were attacked in the flank or rear. Contrary to what one might imagine, evidence seems to indicate that most of the time the germanics did fight in dense infantry formations much as the Romans did, although they were not Drilled and disciplined the same way the Roman legions were.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Outdoor -> Yes, Cults were done outdoor. But actually the Priests need Houses and Matirial that must be made like building a Structure to display it in the TW-Engine.

Totems? Mostly holy Trees that have been a few Centuries old and decorated with Flowers. The decoration is variable through which god the Tree is sacered to (Tiwaz Oaks were "decorated" with Deer Stomage...)

Mainly the Organisation of Germanic Armies was influenced by Arminius, who introduced the Fylking as a kind of germanic "Legion". This development caused that Germanics began to use Formations aswell, but with less drill then the Romans. The Formations and Tactics Germanics used were also influence Through Arminus this way, to trick Roman Commanders. Oftenly they based a smaller Army at a Position so the Romans went there to get the bait, but then surrounded them to make a bloody end...

Germanics preffered Horses in Combat, but not all could afford one. So only the rich Aristorcraths (the Edelings) and the Mercenaries in Service of a Fylking rode Horses. The Monted Spearchucker as shown was mostly made up from Mercenaries (In times of Peache these Men were Robbers).

[Nowake]

I didn't read all this thread, but a small corection:

the fins were related to the hungarians, who came much later ...