The Mongol roleplay!!

[Leet Eriksson]

OK this will be specifically centered on the mongols,but before we start i'd like to point out somethings:

1.before going out killing foriegners you must describe how you ended up in the mongol army.or rather a breif story of your life in Mongolia before heading out to conquer the world.

2.you can also be one of the rival factions(Persian,Pole,Russian,Chinese,Turkoman,Teuton....etc).

3.no cheap shots allowed(ie n00b:i rode my uber horse and killed the grandmaster with an arrow)Talk in detail about your battles,duels and adventures.

4.Historical figures are given to players on a first post first serve basis,unless you wanted to make an original charecter.You could be any historical figure,ie ghengis khan,Teuoton grandmaster,Jalal al Din,Henry the Pious...etc.

5.Its a freeform RP and not a recreation,so we should'nt be tied to historical events.You could do whatever you like with your charecter(ie if you are Ghengis Khan for example you could attack russia first instead of china).

6.We start in 1200 the begining of the mongol campaigns around the world,So if we switch to say the Yuan Era of the mongol empire we could also change charecters,if you want to remain on your original charecter you can in the form of his decendant(grandson,great grandson etc..)


OK thats it.Lets start shall we?In my next post i'll talk in detail about my Charecter Subudai Bahadur.

[ShadesWolf]

Hi faisal old buddy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


So how is this going to work then mate, will this just be pure fiction or do u intend to play some time of campaign, using MTW or Shogun MI

[Shahed]

Interesting, how about we throw some MP battles in as well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Nigel]

Quote[/b] ]... or do u intend to play some type of campaign, using MTW or Shogun MI

That's an interesting thought. In fact I have seen this work with other games, throwing in the occasional MP battle to make up part of the RP story.

Can be great fun.

[Dramicus]

This seams interesting...

Well, If this proves to be popular I will join in...

Just in case, im going to stake my claim in Germany as a Teutonic Knight... Ill put in more details as the battles make their way closer to Europe and as the story evolves...

[Monk]

this should be fun,

I think i'll be in Keiv as a Spearman with the Russian armies. I will begin to tell my tale as the Horde moves closer

[Leet Eriksson]

MP battles are welcome,So alot of players are interested in the european campaign,i'll have to scrap the chinese and persian ones then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ok some changes for it then,the game will use the MTW game for MP battles(don't have MI on my HDD http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif),we'll start with kalka and advance with the story slowly after each victory or loss.

So we start at 1223 at Kalka River,it will be an MP battle.I suggest 2 mongol players(8 units each,1 player light cav and warriors and other is heavy cav+light cav) Vs 1 russian(16 units) the 2 mongol players will be Subudai and Jebei the Russian player will be the Grand prince.Any suggestions or changes need to be made?

[Dramicus]

well, for one, once we get started we clear out all posts such as these so as not to clutter the topic...

and for the battles, perhaps some unit restrictions are in order to keep it historic and not about who has the best army combination, make it so the battles are fought as they were in history with similar units that were/may/would have been used...

[ShadesWolf]

Asa suggestion faisal, why dont you ask who is interesting in playing the battle ?

If you get 3 people the you can have your 2v1 (16v16)

However, if you find you have 4,5,6 interested it might make for a better battle, less units each person so more can actualy go on

Also it might be worth finding out where all the players are from as myself and Sinan have experienced some problems with timezones and people being online at the wrong time of the day.

[ShadesWolf]

BTW I can offer my services in some of the online battles, but sime is limited due to web site work, so I wont take part in the actually story part.....

To the first battle then

May I offer my services as a mongol general then please

[Orda Khan]

Sounds like a nice idea Faisal...I'd wait before offering to join as one of the Mongol Noyans, ShadesWolf, Jebe died through fever heading home not long after Kalka http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Talking of which, I hope you choose to use my interpretation, O_Kalka, as the CA map depicts a bridge battle, which it certainly wasn't. If you are considering both Golden Horde and Ilkhanate campaigns to follow, then you may find the named maps in my Map pack. All begin O_ and I believe Sko has included them in the MP Specific Map Pack.
Historical maps are O_ ....
Kalka
Liegnitz
Kose Dagh
Ain Jalut
Nishapur
Kulikovo Pole

........Give me a shout when we invade ...Orda will bring his Horse Archers

....Orda

[Dramicus]

well, I can play in probably most mp battles but I would rather keep in character and restrict my self to fighting battles in which the Germans are present... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Orda Khan]

My mistake sorry....Nishapur has not been uploaded yet and I am working on another map O_Aleppo, so I could upload both later on. There are many possibilities so I would not scrap any ideas just yet

...Orda

[LadyAnn]

I'll stack claim of the Dai Viet Kingdom (South of Han's Song Empire). Dai Viet only got in contact with Mongol in late 13th century, so they had time to prepare for the Mongol Invasion (and learned from the Song mistakes). Dai Viet claim of fame: fought 3 wars against Mongol and won all 3.

Annie

I'll start writing to cover the period from 1200 to 1257, (1257 is the year of the first Mongol Invasion)

[Monk]

I can fight in most of the MP battles, esp these first ones where the Russians are present.

I offer my services as a russian general

[Nigel]

Sound good. It seems things is takeing shape.

Just a few thoughts :


Quote[/b] ]once we get started we clear out all posts such as these so as not to clutter the topic...

may be worth while to keep them in a seperate topic (out of char. or Admin) to discuss new ideas or issues arrising and have a clean in-charakter topic for the actual game.


Quote[/b] ]some unit restrictions are in order

I would not mind if unit selection is done by faisal and I fight with the units that he sees fit to match the historical frame or to keep the game balanced.


Quote[/b] ]finding out where all the players are from

Good point. should be taken in consideration when arrangeing battles. I myself am in GMT.

Will be interesting to see what happens. Will the Golden Horde overrun Europe or will the Europeans be able to push them back and save their civilisation ?

[Leet Eriksson]

Ok then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif as Shadeswolf suggested,i'll make the battle bigger,i'll asign positons to the mongols and russians for the MP battle(3v3),Orda will be Jebei(Horse archers,Mongol warriors),Shades Wolf Subudai(Heavy cav+horse archers)and i'll be General x(no name yet)i'll get horse archers and infantry.

Monk will be Prince Mstislav and will have 2 more allies they are Russian Prince and Kipchak allies.I do not know the commanders names of the 2 russian allies.also we'll need 2 more players taking their role.as for the russian units line up,i don't know so suggestions are wlecome.

Lady Ann-sorry i scrapped the chinese and persian campaigns,it'll be based on Kalka river and europe mostly,but if WesW released his mod,it could be possible for a chinese battles.but you are welcome to be any charecter based on the mongolian campaign in europe.

EDIT:btw i'm GMT+4:00 Abu Dhabi,Muscat.we'll need a time set.RP begins after everything is set http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

EDIT again:if you have any suggestions and changes please mention them.

[Shahed]

Orda's maps are going to be great for MP. I'd love to participate, but I dont have enough time to devote on this thread. I could fight some MP battles.

SeljukSinan Presents Arms

I volunteer as a combat leader for either party.

*Salute*

[LadyAnn]

Oww http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
STW/MI is perfectly for the Eastern campaign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyways, I'll hold my horses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Annie

[Brother Derfel]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ Aug. 07 2003,17:16)]Monk will be Prince Mstislav and will have 2 more allies they are Russian Prince and Kipchak allies.I do not know the commanders names of the 2 russian allies.also we'll need 2 more players taking their role.as for the russian units line up,i don't know so suggestions are wlecome.
Three main divisions were organised for the Russian alliance. Those from Kiev under Prince Mstislav Romanovich, the second from Tchernikov-Smolnesk led by Grand Prince Mstislav of Tcherkinov and included the contingent of Prince Olga of Kursk. The Third group from Galicia-Volynia also had as it's leader a Grand Prince Mstislev (they loved that name) with his son in law Prince Danilo.



The Kiev troops moved down the Dneiper to meat up with the Galician army and the remaining Polovtians (Cumans or Kipchak), making a total of about 80-100,000 men based on a nucleus of about 20,000 heavy cavalry.


EDIT: Forgot to mention that this was an entirely mounted battle, so no foot troops took part. Unles you want to add the fight around the wagon laager at the end when 10,000 russians circled their wagons for protection, but that would be hard to do.

[ShadesWolf]

TIMEZONES
for Mongol campaign

MONGOLS (Horde)

faisal GMT +4
ShadeWolf GMT
Orda ????


RUSSIA

Monk GMT -5
SeljukSinan GMT +1

[ShadesWolf]

A few notes on the subject.....

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/map13.GIF

In 1223,Ghengiz, Great Khan of the Mongols, ordered an armed reconnaissance expedition into Russia, commanded by Subadai Bahadur and Jebei Noyon. *The Arrow*.
The Mongols met Prince Mstislav and his Russian and Kipchaq allies at the battle of Kalka River.
They tricked the enemy across the River Kalka by feigning retreat.
As soon as the enemy army crossed the river to pursue them, the Mongols quickly surrounded them, and Attacked.
The Russians fled the field, pursued by the Mongols.
For the Mongols it may have been a reconnaissance in force. But for Russia and the rest of the world, it was a disaster. Opening up vast regions to future Mongol conquest





---------------------------------------------------------
Links and documents

A nice PDF on the Subject -
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/khans_horses.pdf

[Shahed]

That's a really well written article Wolfie. Thanks for that.

Now we also need an order of battle for that day in history. That would really help with setting up the units.

Please remember to add me to the combat roster, whichever side is fine.

[Monk]

oh yeah, btw i am GMT -5.

[Brother Derfel]

There is a large article on Kalka in theis months Wargames illustrated, it is a good in depth article with all the historical background to the battle as well as descriptions of the type of armed forces for each of the armies.
Unfortunatly there is no set amry list to quote, and the full article is very long. However, i can do me best to get the important information for the armies out of it if you want?

[Shahed]

I'll go see if it is available in Lux. I suspect it would be helpful to the cause if you were to describe the tactis and order of battle described in the mag, for everyone else.

[Leet Eriksson]

Brother Derfel:please do,i'll need alot of info on the russian army so we can have a historical battle.

Now on ordas mappack where do i get it from,everyone will need it i suppose so we can have a well illustrated battle.

as for Sinan,you could be any charecter you want,but if you would like you can take the Kipchak allies leader for the kalka river scenario.

[ShadesWolf]

Thankyou Brother Derfel, I knew I had read the article somewhere, but could not remember where..... Now I know where it was.

I will not scan and post the images of the article on this forum as I will get told off again, and have my wrists slapped, but if anybody would like to email me, I will talk to you in detail about what the article says.

I have also ordered the Osprey Publishing Kalka River 1223
campaign book, so if we can wait about a week before we do this, then it will give it time to arrive....... and it should help with maps and army setup etc.....

[Leet Eriksson]

i can wait http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nigel]

faisal, how do you want to hold it with historical accuracy in the game ?

Do you want it to be like a re-enactment of the events as they really happened or will you allow the game to go freely and take whichever course it will ? Or perhaps it will be something between the two ?

If I can, I would like to play as a fictional character. But if you'd rather have us impersonate real ones, that's fine with me too.

Nigel

[Nigel]

btw.
Nice map, ShadesWolf. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Perhaps we can use it (or some other map) to update the progress of the campaign with it.

[Brother Derfel]

Gah

Sorry I am so late posting this, I havn';t had much time on my Hands, and can only post very breifly now (compared to the articles original length).

The Russians
The Russian military system resembled the feudal organisation oif western europe in some aspects, with each noblemen owing aleigance to a great magnate or duke. The houshold troops of each noble formed the core of the armed forces of each state.
Long experience of fighting the nomads had given the russian forces their particular organisation of dividing the troops into two groups, the 'senior' detachment of heavy cavalry equiped with lances and the 'junior' detachment of Horse archers.
They had borrowed the powerful box from the nomads for long range fire and also the sword, battleaxe, dagger and mace for close quarter fighting. For defence mail armour was in common use, together with scale armour of either western european or byzantine design. Sheilds, either lozenge shaped or round were carried by all troops.

For Kalka, the Rusian army numbered about 100,000 including the Polovtian allies. 20,000 of these were the 'Senior' Heavy cavalry. I am not sure that you would use for these as IIR the Russians in TW do not have a Lance armed cavalry troop.

The rest would be Horse Archers.

The Polovtians
Polovtian nobles were equiped in similar fashion to the Russians, again with lance and shield.
Because the main polovtian army had been smashed previously by the mongols for harbouring Khwarizm fugitives, their forces at Kalka were eager for revenge, but also greatly deminished. Becasue of this, the Polovtian allies at Kalka should not number more than about 20,000, 5,000 being Heavy cavalry and the rest Horse archers.


The Mongols
The corps led by Subedai was probably the best armed and equipped force in the whole Mongol army.
The Corps comprised of about 30,000 men (or 3 tumans). the vast bulk of which was generaly Horse archers, but in Subedai's case, up to two thirds of his army was made of heavy cavalry.



As i said before, this battle is entirely a mounted affair, so choose your OOB based on this.

[ShadesWolf]

This is only a suggestion. For a while I have been playing a campaign with my good friend Tarrak based on the 100 years war ( we are a stalemate at the moment as he cant get VI to work on his PC).

However, for this campaign we created our own map while I have posted an image of below. We could always create something similar if we thought the idea was ok and would not be to time comsuming.

http://www.shadesmtw.com/oooo/map1340winter.gif

[Shahed]

Well that looks real nice. We could do the same with this campaign. Perhaps once we scripted the battles and they have been achieved, we could place markers on the map to show current army positions.

BTW the 3 toumen army is a bit wierd no ? I thought that they used toumen in increments of even numbers, so 2 toumen, 4 toumen, 6 toumen etc..

Am I right ?

[Shahed]

Thanks brother Derfel for your post. That should be helpful when we finally battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Orda Khan]

Hi Sinan...The 3 Tumens at Kalka were the ones under Subedei, Jebe and Chingis Khan's son-in-law, Toguchar. These 3 commanders were given the task of hunting down the Khwarism Shah. They were ordered to destroy only the cities that refused to surrender or had given the Shah refuge. Maybe Toguchar felt confident as his father-in-law was the Khan, in any case he plundered towns that had already offered their surrender to Jebe. The Khan sent a common soldier to deliver the sentence, Toguchar was reduced to the ranks, his Tumen to be merged with that of Jebe and it was as a front line cavalryman that he died at Nishapur. His wife stood and watched silently as every living thing in Nishapur was slaughtered.

The account of Kalka is basically right, however they crossed the Dnieper and left behind a rearguard of 1000 men under Hamabek to report on and hold up Russian movements. Mstislav of Galicia decided to attack as the other Prince's argued about command. The Mongol rearguard held its ground and were killed to a man. Encouraged by this victory, the others crossed the river also and they all set out anxious that each had their share of the spoils. For 9 days the Mongols stretched out the attackers in a feigned retreat until they reached the western bank of the Kalka, where they turned, drew up their lines and prepared for battle.
Impetuously Mstislav ordered his Galicians and Cumans to charge. They were split by arrows and driven back by heavy cavalry that galloped into the gap created by the horse archers.The armies of Kursk and Volynia were disorganised by the fleeing Cumans and the Mongol horses were amongst them before they could reform. All this had taken place using smoke as a screen. The Chernigov army collided with its fleeing allies and was unable to regroup before the armies ahead were in total rout and they too were hit by the Mongol cavalry. The Prince of Kiev had built a fortification back at the Dnieper so arrived behind his allies. He ordered an orderly retreat, covering his allies. They were forced to retreat 150 miles back to the Dnieper where they found no ships. The allies they protected had escaped on one and burned the rest, leaving the Kievans to their fate.

Sorry I've been so slack following up this thread...too much going on lately..

I am GMT

One question regarding units used in these battles.....
Are we doing a sort of accurate account? The reason I ask is that these overwhelming odds would be hard to reproduce even at v4 w3 a3 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
For example a load of chivalric knights, MAA and crossbows would have a picnic. To remain true to the period I would suggest Feudal Knights and MAA (though not many FMAA as I doubt there were many )Spearmen, Woodsmen, some light cav and some archers....In other words lightly armoured units. As already pointed out by Brother Derfel, this was an all cav battle. Personally I like Faisal's idea of using other units for variety as we would never recreate a battle totally accurately. This way we can stray slightly from the facts while still maintaining the theme.

Will this be run on VI or MTW?.....Reason being Mongols get another archer cav in Steppe Heavies

Finally......I love that map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

....Orda

P.S.....Faisal plzzzzz reconsider including the Ilkhanate battles at least

[Nigel]

Gerat map, ShadesWolf,

it looks like you have created your own way of playing a Multiplayer Campaign with M:TW. I have always been interested in this sort of thing. In fact, when the Sword & Pistol was still open, me and some freinds did something similar with FireFly's Stronghold. It was great fun, but also a lot of work for the gamemaster, keeping track of all the units everywhere. I would be interested to learn how you manage.

In any case the map is great, and if it is not too much work, it would be cool to use something similar for this game. I'd be happy to lend a hand if needs be.

Just let me know,
Nigel

[ShadesWolf]

The biggest problems we encountered were

- Getting the map and placing the provinces
- Getting enough people online to fight multiplayer battles
- sorting out armies with split units in them.....
- Reg communication with players and updates

[ShadesWolf]

If u r interested then take a look

http://pub158.ezboard.com/fonerorderofomissionsfrm6

http://pub158.ezboard.com/fonerorderofomissionsfrm7

[ShadesWolf]

So has anybody else done any work on this ?

- Im still waiting for the books to be delivered, hopefully I should get them by Saturday.....

[Orda Khan]

I posted the account of the battle above. When you say work ShadesWolf, do you mean regarding the actual deployment of the armies? I don't know how readily available this would be. I have read a few accounts of the battle but none mention deployment per se, other than 'the Mongols turned and drew up in line of battle.' There was also a suggestion that some had peeled off during retreat, returning to hit the flanks of the attack. On the whole the pursuit was disorganised and impetuous. Nobody had overall charge so there was no clear order being followed. The attack was made even more hopeless by the fact that they had become strung out, the Mongols retreated slow enough for them to keep up but fast enough also to split the enemy.
The numbers per army vary from account to account...
20 to 30 thousand Mongols
80 to 100 thousand Russian, Cuman.
After starting out with 3 Tumens, they waged their way through Georgia and then across the Carpathians. They destroyed the Georgians and left them incapable of fielding another army and after crossing the the mountains fought a huge Cuman,Khazar,Bulgar and Alan alliance. Marvelous as these achievements may be, they must have suffered huge losses. After hunting down the survivors Jebe and Subedei split, Jebe rode to the river Don while Subedei went south west to the Sea of Azov. After organising alliegeances and espionage he rode to meet Jebe at the Don. Jebe had made a treaty in the meantime with the Brodniki and secured 5000 reinforcements. They marched unopposed to the river Dniester where they camped and conducted surveys and a census, drew up maps of Hungary, Poland, Silesia and Bohemia. After gathering all this information they began their long ride home, planning to meet up with Jochi, eldest son of Chingis Khan, with another Tumen. They were to finish suppressing the Bulgars of the Upper Volga and then return to report on their reconnaissance. Jochi was ill and his reinforcements would be late so Jebe and Subedei had to act quickly because there was a huge force massing around them.........

That is the bare bones of the background to Kalka

...Orda

Edit: Typo

[Nigel]

I've had a look at your links ShadesWolf.
Really nice game you have going there.

But I don't want to deviate or hijack this threat.
This here is to be about the Mongol roleplay.

I think we should leave it to faisal how much campaign-gameing he wants to do in this one. After all this is his game and a full campaign will require a lot of effort from the gamemaster. If it is roleplaying spiced up with an occasional MP battle where it fits, that's fine by me.

There seem to be a lot of people with historical knowledge around here ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Orda Khan). So there should be no problem getting information on army compositions.

If you ask me, we could use this info to make up armies and fight a battle and then spin the story from the outcome of these fights. Using historically accurate, or plausible armies to start at a point in history and then we'll see where we end up. I think I would prefer that to a pure re-enactment of history, but that's just my opinion.

Let's see what others think,
Nigel

[Shahed]

Greetings Friends

I just ran into a very interesting article about Mongols, I have posted it here:

Mongol vs Mamluke (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=10150;r=1;&#top)

I think it is pretty accurate. I checked up on the sources and they seem reasonable to me so I took the liberty of posting it. It is not totally scientific but makes for interesting reading.

Hope you enjoy it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ShadesWolf]

http://www.shadesmtw.com/graphics/map1.jpg

http://www.shadesmtw.com/graphics/map2.jpg

I will also have a look around and see what other stuff I can find on the Mongols in general and also this battle.

Most of my general history books skip over this battle with a one line sentence

[Shahed]

Nice maps Wolf, and really nice info there Orda.
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Skomatth]

CBR's mod could be utilized for mongol battle recreations, he does a lot better job than ca did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Orda Khan]

I agree with you Sko, the unit choices and gameplay would be much better for the roleplay too because he has included accurate factions in his Eastern Wars Mod. You also get less game restricting armour, so arrows are effective.
I'm all for it but it depends if everyone has the Mod

....Orda

[Shahed]

Does anyone have a link for download of Eastern Wars Mod ? please.

[Skomatth]

Theres no official one yet but heres a link to the beta....

http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/MPWarsBeta.exe tell me if that works...

[Shahed]

Thanks for the link. Will let you know how it runs.

[ShadesWolf]

The book has arrived and it is 92 pages long.

I will have a good luck at it and post some battle pictures over the weekend

So now we need to talk about
- Do we have a map/ battlefield to play on ?
- How far is the mod away ?

[Shahed]

Hi Wolfie

That's excellent news. :applause:
I REALLY look forward to your post.

Meanwhile Faisal has gone to London, and did not say when he will be back.

-We have Orda's Kalka map
-I have not tried the mod yet. Will do so tonight.

If you are online after 17:30 GMT please gimme a shout on MSN:

katsujin_ken@hotmail.com

We can check out the mod together in that case.

[ShadesWolf]

Could you email both to me

ihusselbee@aol.com

[Shahed]

okie

[Shahed]

For some reason only Microsoft wizkids would know, I can;t sign on to MSN for more than 30 seconds before it boots me out. I'll pop u the stuff by email.

[ShadesWolf]

I have now gathered some basic information from my book on the conflict....

So my question is how do you want me to present it ?

Shall I create a few ZIP files and link to them here, for you to download, or do you want me to post some info in this forum.

Currently I have a number of battle maps.
- 3 specific ones related to the actual battle and movement of troops.

[Orda Khan]

What's the name of this book ShadesWolf?

.....Orda

[ShadesWolf]

Kalka River 1223 (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S2334~per=41)

I find Osprey quite a good book company, they run some good series. I have quite a few on the 100 years War as well as Rome.

I am also waiting for the new one that cam out last month on the Mongol invasion (a general look at the invasion)

[Orda Khan]

Thanks m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

.....Orda

[Nigel]

Greetings gentlemen,

I will be on vacation for the next two weeks.
If you want to get this game started in the meantime, no need to wait for me. I am happy to join in later.

Have fun allthewhile,
Nigel

[ShadesWolf]

OK thanks for the info Nige

I will try and post some stuff over the weekend about the actual battle.

I will also try to upload the ZIP file, for people to look at.

[ShadesWolf]

Ups sorry guys, seem to have forgot to up load it.

Well it up now anyway

Camp maps (http://www.shadesmtw.com/graphics/campmap.zip)

[Shahed]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Thanks very much. I guess this is it. Countdown.

[Orda Khan]

I checked out the book link and found a nice one on Tamerlane...couldn't resist it but man, how slack are these guys at Osprey? It's been ages and still no sign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

.......Orda

[ShadesWolf]

My last Osprey book has finally arrived.

Genghis Khan & the Mongol conquest 1190 - 1400.

So what the morale of the story, before ordering online check the local book store out, as they have a whole section dedicated to Osprey books. And yes u guessed it, the book has been there for a week or two now.

I will have a look an the two book I know have, and over the next week or so do some more work on this project.

BTW all those who havent downloaded the mod please do so as its quite good.

Also could we give some thought to if we think the unit content in the mod is enough, oe should we do a little modding ourselved to unit sizes ?

[Orda Khan]

I think the MPWars Mod is great just as it is....there are no Golden Horde Warriors, so maybe some adjustment to the suggested Horde armies is required. Personally I like the historical feel to it and normal Horse Archers can be used in their place.

....Orda

[Nigel]

Just came back from my holiday http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Got to go back to work tomorrow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
But glad to be back online and ready to play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Orda Khan]

Well the books arrived..

My views on Kalka River 1223?.....hmmmmm
Ok it makes an interesting read and there are some good pictures, maps etc...
I have read 5 accounts of this battle and then this one. The author keeps referring to The Chronicles which are obviously Russian chronicles. The whole account of the battle, from the first Mongol ambassadors to the conclusion is so different from every account I have read so far and very flattering towards the Russian / Cuman alliance. I have never heard mention of 'Teshi and Tsyugr khans' Who are these guys supposed to be? Also the field fortification using wagons? At Mohi and the Battle of Sajo the Hungarians encircled their camp with wagons tied together, I've not heard of this at Kalka until now.
As I said, there were some nice points about history regarding armour, weapons and the like but as to the actual battle I think I will favour the accounts I have already seen as this one seems more than a bit 'tainted'.

......Orda

[ShadesWolf]

Is that the Osprey book ?

[Orda Khan]

Yes ShadesWolf, I was curious after seeing the maps etc that you posted. After reading the book I have surmised that the author has taken all his information from one source. He even claims that the Russians were technologically better equiped and in many cases, tactically superior. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
He then says the Mongols were not superior in military development......I'm sorry but he should have done a bit of research, for the Russian and East European accounts of this period in history are biased to say the least. There are Polish and Hungarian claims of 'saving the rest of Europe and Christianity itself' and battles where they were totally crushed are seen as glorious victories. This is mere propoganda and I find the truth usually lies somewhere between the reports of victor and vanquished.
After Kalka he claims they were humiliated by defeat at the hands of the Bulgars, whereas the reports I read say they defeated the Kama Bulgars who rode out to meet them at the upper Volga. He seems preoccupied with the notion that this was an invading force when in fact it was no more than armed reconnaissance. They had not set out to occupy any territory, though they had been ordered to hunt down and punish the Cuman tribes who had been allies of the Khwarazm Shah so as they marched homeward they beat the Saxins and finally utterly annihilated the eastern Kanglis as punishment for providing so many soldiers for Khwarazm.
Lastly he points out that the Russians were greatly outnumbered on the battlefield. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Yes there were some interesting bits, I liked the different helmets, visors and armour, it helps you paint a much clearer picture than the 'King Arthur' type of medieval knight that people normally imagine but there are just too many contradictions...he even says Subedei was one-eyed. The guy who had one eye was Nogai, son of Boal and nephew to Batu.

........Orda

[Nigel]

hmmmmm,.....

I can't help getting the feeling that this project is getting lost in a historical debate.

Don't get me wrong, I know Orda is just speaking out for what he sees as the truth - and that is good and right.

But speaking for myself, I cannot contribute much to this discussion and have to sit and wait until the playing starts.

My opinion would be : lets move foreward with the game.
Knowing that it will be only one of many possible interpretations of history and knowingly accepting many inaccuracies for the sake of fun and gameplay.

That's my two cents,
Nigel

[ShadesWolf]

The problem we have Nigel is IMHO we need to wait for Fais and seeing he has not been around for a while its hard to decide what to do with the project.

Yet what I can say is, again IMHO, that we do have enough data to move forward, and there is so reason why a story thread for this could not be started......

[Orda Khan]

ShadesWolf is spot on there Nigel...after all it is Faisals project. Regarding my Historical post..I was just expressing my opinon on the book ( sort of idle chit chat while nothing is happening )
I agree with you also, there is no way of doing accurate historical battles and they would cause too many problems, I think, like you, it's a case of just having a bit of fun

.....Orda

[Nigel]

I guess Faisal's absence here is just what has been worrying me for the past days. His last post was on August 9th, I think. More than a month ago.

I only hope all our talk has not given him the feeling that we are taking things out of his hands. Well, you guys probably know him better than I do and maybe he is not like that and wellcomes others organizing part of his game (I know I would).
Somewhere in this thread there was a mentioning of him going to London, and perhaps that trip has taken his attention off his game.
I will try to pm him and see what happens.


But yes, we should respect the fact that this is his game.
So I will happily join you in waiting.
... and chatting
... and shouting

Oh, Faisal, where art thou

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Nigel

[Nigel]

hmmm, I didn't mean to stop this thread in its tracks.

Lets keep up the historical chit chat while we wait for faisal.

Anyne knows what happened after Kalka ??

[Orda Khan]

After Kalka...
The Mongol force rode east, where they met reinforcements led by Jochi. At the upper Volga they were attacked by the Kama Bulgars who were ambushed and routed and then they headed south east, the Bulgars claiming to the Russian states that they had driven off the enemy. As they went they cleared the Saxins and then completely crushed the Qangli or eastern Cumans who had provided a large quota of troops for the Khwarazm Shah. This time they did not ride on, they had a score to settle so the Qangli were crushed and their Khan was killed.
It was not long after and almost at Chingis Khan's camp on the Irtysh where disaster struck. At a point near the Imil river, Jebe died suddenly of a fever.

......Orda

[Leet Eriksson]

OK a small delay guys,real life impedes my progress in the mongol roleplay,i'd present you 2 choices,you could either replace me temporarily,or wait until i get over the issues and start roleplaying.any other suggestions are welcome.

[ShadesWolf]

I have no problem in waiting faisal.

Im not going anywhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Nigel]

Good to hear from you, faisal.

Glad you have not given up this project.
Dont wory about the delay. We know real life comes first.

I am happy to wait while I know you are still there.
No rush, enough other things to do in the meantime.
Just give the go ahead when your ready and I'll spur my horses.