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Shahed
10-01-2003, 07:37
Inspired by Takuan Soho, Fudochishinmyoroku: The Mysterious Record of Immovable Wisdom.

My main question is about the No Mind. No Sword, I understand quite well. I have some trouble to translate from No Mind to No Sword and vice versa. Although it should be easy to transpose I have many questions about No Mind relating not necessarily to the martial art, but to life. I can't formulate some of these questions of No Mind clearly, yet. They are there but broken and distant, though I can feel the question I can't formulate it.

I'll start with a beginning of what I understand of the No Mind.

The No Mind does not stop at any one place. It's fluid like water, transient. It cannot focus on one thing.

If it does it becomes the abiding mind. It will become afflicted, the mind of delusion, the mind of ignorance and hence conflict.

The No Mind in non judgemental. It does not judge, it perceives. Judge less and perceive more.

Understanding No Mind is as being as Kanon with a thousand arms and a thousand Eyes. Half baked man calls this a lie, and slanders, this is the abiding mind.

The life of No Mind is not a life. Can we say this is true. Yes we can becuase life today is the afflicted mind. The No Mind is moving without thinking it is like the fragrance of a rose, which is dispelled regardless of action.

The Mind is No Mind. When this is the case life is a river, moving across obstacles, washing away those that stop it, and changing course from those beyond the current momentum of the No Mind.

As we think, rather the less we think the more we follow the No Mind. The No Mind does not need to think, even it does not need to think about not thinking. It IS, it IS, It IS being without thinking, as a spark from the stone.

KEN ZEN ICHI DESU

Gregoshi
10-01-2003, 14:53
Help me here Sinan. I need some context on your post. I'm soooo confused (like that is hard to do... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ).

A.Saturnus
10-01-2003, 17:48
It is delusion to believe that the No Mind doesn`t need to think, as it is a delusion to believe there`s perception without judgement.

Of course, I donĀ“t have any idea what we are talking about here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Togakure
10-01-2003, 19:21
The concept of No Mind is a difficult thing to wrap one's mind around http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif . I have been struggling to understand it for some time now (intuit it, would be a better description, IMHO). I am not really qualified to talk about this subject, but I will share what has come to mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif after reading your post.

Some things are hard to describe with words. An example would be the sensei who is asked by a student: How did you do these incredible things? Many a sensei has had to respond: I honestly don't know. I just do them, without thinking.

Rather than attempt to define or describe the No Mind concept from an intellectual perspective, I will share personal experience that I believe might have been No Mind in action.

As a boy and young man I studied classical piano very seriously for 11 years. In my latter years of study, at the peak of my development, there were occasions where, after practicing a piece for several years, i would occasionally find myself outside of myself as I played. The music would flow marvelously, and I was not consciously thinking about it anymore. In fact, when I did think about it, the flow would be interupted (the stopping mind), and my playing was flawed. But in those moments of no mind, my fingers, wrists, arms and body would do what they had been trained to do. Without the interference of conscious cognition, they performed perfectly. I became as one with my instrument, and the music. These moments, fleeting as they were, were the closest I have ever felt to being enlightened in the context of developing my musical awareness and skill.

I'm sure you can transpose this to some of your own experiences involving intensive training. The greatest challenge I think, is expanding one's training to every facet of one's life. To train and train and train, in everything we do, the goal being to achieve consistent no mind in all we do. If this goal is reached--welcome to enlightenment in the grand sense.

An old fool's two cents, offered with humility. It is so exciting to see someone scrutinizing such subjects, Sinan san. I wish you the best in your endeavors.

A.Saturnus
10-02-2003, 18:45
Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Oct. 01 2003,20:21)]Rather than attempt to define or describe the No Mind concept from an intellectual perspective, I will share personal experience that I believe might have been No Mind in action.

As a boy and young man I studied classical piano very seriously for 11 years. In my latter years of study, at the peak of my development, there were occasions where, after practicing a piece for several years, i would occasionally find myself outside of myself as I played. The music would flow marvelously, and I was not consciously thinking about it anymore. In fact, when I did think about it, the flow would be interupted (the stopping mind), and my playing was flawed. But in those moments of no mind, my fingers, wrists, arms and body would do what they had been trained to do. Without the interference of conscious cognition, they performed perfectly. I became as one with my instrument, and the music. These moments, fleeting as they were, were the closest I have ever felt to being enlightened in the context of developing my musical awareness and skill.
I can`t say if this is a valid description of the No Mind, since I never heard the term before. But I can offer a somewhat different, for some maybe unsatisfying point of view to it:
The phenomenon you describe is surely known to practitioners of any art and it`s not surprising if some wise men of those arts make a philosophy out of it. But this may be a sign of wisdom, it contains not real knowledge.
For psychologists this phenomenon is something normal. There are very simple - you might call them profane - experiments that show that there are automatic actions by humans and behaviour that needs explicit control by the consciousness (though, the question if the consciousness actually 'controls' anything is yet undecided). Most actions are actually automatic, such as walking, chewing or moving your eyes to an interesting stimulus. Only unusual or difficult actions need explicit, serial control. But if they are practiced, the become well known, synapses between neurons that stear those behaviour intensify and the actions become automatic and unconscious. The control of unusual behaviour is maybe one of the reasons we have a consciousness.
Note that for a psychologist 'No Mind' is definitely the wrong expression for this, since these actions are still under control of the mind, only not anylonger conscious.
I don`t think that it`s possible to exist in a state where all actions and mental processes are unconscious or that it is even something we should wish for.

Russ Mitchell
10-02-2003, 22:16
There is no need to understand. Stop thinking. Do. That is all...

(and totally non-western...)

Pindar
10-03-2003, 07:12
The no-mind view you are trying to develop is itself a product of Zen thought which is a out growth of the

Yogacara school (Hosso in Japanese) of Mahayana Buddhism.

Zen is an anti-rational approach to knowledge. Subsequesntly, any rational attempt to articulate an aspect of satori, or an enlightened state is doomed to fail. Rather the focus is on inuitive knowledge. It cannot be taught, there is no dicta or canon to appeal to, it is simply understood or not.

Attempts at clarification vis a vis conceptual notions of unity or oneness are themselves victums of distintion and the abiding mind. Thus this very sentiment:


Quote[/b] ]I can't formulate some of these questions of No Mind clearly, yet.

is in error.

A.Saturnus
10-03-2003, 20:30
In other words, no one understands No Mind, only some think they do and others not.

Pindar
10-03-2003, 20:53
Quote[/b] ]In other words, no one understands No Mind, only some think they do and others not.

Hehe.

I like the quote on communism under your signature

A.Saturnus
10-03-2003, 22:00
Quote[/b] ]I like the quote on communism under your signature

Oops, I forgot to name the source. Sorry, Nelson

Gregoshi
10-04-2003, 03:03
Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Oct. 02 2003,16:16)]There is no need to understand. Stop thinking. Do. That is all...

(and totally non-western...)
Look what kind of trouble this philosophy caused for George Bush... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That can be interpreted a number of ways, can't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

A.Saturnus
10-04-2003, 18:54
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Oct. 04 2003,04:03)]
Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Oct. 02 2003,16:16)]There is no need to understand. Stop thinking. Do. That is all...

(and totally non-western...)
Look what kind of trouble this philosophy caused for George Bush... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That can be interpreted a number of ways, can't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Very true. This poll (http://www.theonion.com/3938/news1.html) here clearly shows that his perceived popularity is diminishing

A.Saturnus
10-04-2003, 18:57
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Oct. 04 2003,04:03)]
Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Oct. 02 2003,16:16)]There is no need to understand. Stop thinking. Do. That is all...

(and totally non-western...)
Look what kind of trouble this philosophy caused for George Bush... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That can be interpreted a number of ways, can't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Very true. This poll (http://www.theonion.com/3938/news1.html) here clearly shows that his perceived popularity is diminishing

A.Saturnus
10-04-2003, 18:58
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Oct. 04 2003,04:03)]
Quote[/b] (Russ Mitchell @ Oct. 02 2003,16:16)]There is no need to understand. Stop thinking. Do. That is all...

(and totally non-western...)
Look what kind of trouble this philosophy caused for George Bush... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That can be interpreted a number of ways, can't it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Very true. This poll (http://www.theonion.com/3938/news1.html) here clearly shows that his perceived popularity is diminishing

edit: that was my first double post.

Gregoshi
10-04-2003, 22:39
Er, that was a triple post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

A.Saturnus
10-05-2003, 18:44
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Oct. 04 2003,23:39)]Er, that was a triple post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Not really, it were two at first, but when I edited, another one appeared.