Best tactics for advanced generalship

[Lord Rom]

What are some of the best tactics used by advanced generals? What exactly do the hold formation, hold position do for you? I know what the manual says but what exactly do they do? I know the spear troops get a bonus form hold formation but when if ever do you put other troops in it? The hold position when do u use it? And what about the engae at will? I've been playing a long time fairly successfully and rarely use these keys Let us know your good tactics

[Oaty]

Its all a matter of taste, but I can can tell you a tactic I love but don't get many opportunities to use. Occasionally My shock class troops get too far ahead of my spearclass/anticavalry class units and I suddeny see a massive cavalry charge coming, so all I do is rout all those guys that are ahead of the spearman and rout em of course this boosts the morale of the enemy but not for long as it leads into a trap. What happens is the cavalry have a broken formation by trying to chase my routers and the support for there cavalry have been pushed back by these guys that are now routing wich causes there line to be really broken and there cavalry then fall into a wall of spears wich in turn rout then I bring in my cavalry


As far as hold formation spears are in hold formation automatically unless you are defending a castle or you select otherwise. The main purpose of having a unit in hold formation is to reduce the amount of damage from a strong chare and occasionally I will put a unit in hold to take the charge then put them at engage at will. As far as spear units in hold formation I keep them like that until it looks like I'm about to win the battle. I then let them go at engage at will wich when they rout they will be easier to catch because a unit in hold formation isnt going to catch many routers.

Another use for hold formation is on skirmishers, I typically do this to skirmishers that are well protected so they dont try to skirmish away from the 1 or 2 men that slip through the line trying to attack them

As far as hold position I have never used it

[Jeebus_Frist]

Hold Formation also allows you to move the entire army in formation. I usually use this in conjunction with three line defense/foot first line so that I can quickly re-adjust my formation when the enemy tries to slip around the side in the pre-engagement manuevering.

Engage at Will should be used with offensive units such as feudal men at arms and mounted seargents since their primary role is attacking and not defending. It is also very useful as it allows the unit to break formation and more effectively pursue routing enemy troops.

Hold Position is especially effective when used with missile troops. I place my archers on hold position because if I give them a specific target they will only continue to fire at that target while it is in range instead of wandering off in pursuit once it moves out of range. Any unit ordered to hold position will return to that spot after any future orders are executed until such a time as the hold command is removed. This means if your cavalry is holding and you order them to chase off some archers, when they capture or kill the last archer they will return to their original position. This helps you from having units spread all across the map.

I wouldn't recommend using the rout option to slow troops that get to far ahead. if you have time to select them amd hit the rout option, you should also have time to select them and hit control + W which is the withdraw command. This will cause them to proceed towards the place where they entered the map with all possible speed. In addition you do not experience a morale penalty and you can stop a withdrawal at any time, unlike routing units.

Play around and have some fun with the different formations. My favorite is placing a cavalry unit into wedge formation and charging them downhill into an approaching enemy unit. If you zoom in as close as you can, you can often see the tip of the wedge make it almost all the way through the enemy unit. Just don't forget to return the cavalry to a square as they lose the wedge bonus once their impact is blunted.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[motorhead]

What exactly do the hold formation, hold position do for you?
hold formation: +2 defense, -2 attack. Soldiers stay in their ranks and will not move very far to engage an enemy. Rarely use for anything other than spear/pike unit
hold position: exactly what the manual says, use it mostly on defense, keeps your units from drifting out of position during combat

engage at will?
default mode for non-spear, non-missile troops. Put spears on engage at will when fighting in forest as they lose their rank bonus in this terrain anyway - putting them in this mode allows them to break ranks to seek out a nearby enemy to engage.



Quote[/b] ]Jeebus_Frist: Hold Formation also allows you to move the entire army in formation. I usually use this in conjunction with three line defense/foot first line so that I can quickly re-adjust my formation when the enemy tries to slip around the side in the pre-engagement manuevering.
Incorrect. 'Hold Formation' is a unit level engagement mode. When you select several units the formation button becomes highlighted. From this screen you can select from the pre-defined formations (spears in front with missiles behind, etc). They are now grouped and when moved as a group they will do so in the selected formation.


Quote[/b] ]Lord Rom: what about the engae at will?
I don't mean to offend you, but asking questions about very fundamental things such as 'engage at will' indicates you don't have enough understanding of how the game works yet to discuss advanced tactics. I would recommend you completely read these highly informative topics Beginner's Guide (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=9190) and Table of Contents (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=3823). Play a few custom games and try out the many ideas/suggestions these threads have already covered.

[Lord Rom]

Motorhead, anytime you begin a sentence with the phrase I dont mean to offend you you've already done so. I have found in my life that it is very foolish to underestimate the abilities of others. I already stated that I had read the manual. Your information merely restated the same. I am really looking for detailed advanced generalship tactics relating to hold formation, hold position, and engage at will. Often time data stored in our memories can be made more useful when given examples of practical uses.

[Aelwyn]

Hold Formation actually is basically the opposite of engage-at-will. When you see shock troops mixing up with the enemy, so they aren't in neat rows, they are engaging at will. In hold formation, your morale is increased +2, but your men will stay in rows, which is why you may see the flanks of units of attacking spearmen just standing there, not really engaging the enemy. If, at that point, you move to engage at will, they will 'collapse' towards the unit they are fighting, sometimes wrapping around the enemy unit and getting a flank bonus.

What its used for: I use hold formation when I have a unit waivering, or if I have allies or other units routing. Unless they have high morale, they may need this extra boost to morale in order not to route themselves, depending on the situation. The time provided by that extra +2 morale is sometimes enough for you to bring that unit help, averting a potentially bad route.

Hold Position will, like already stated, give your unit -2 attack, +2 defense. The best use for this is defense. If you have an anti-cav unit being charged by cavs, the very best thing you can do it put them on Hold Formation and Hold Position to recieve the charge (also make sure they're not moving, and facing the correct way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). Then once the charge is over, take off both and let them engage at will (provided the situation is correct where they will not route due to morale factors).

To move your whole army together, simply group them together. If you want to change their facing but not position, have them all highlighted and grouped, and hold down Alt while right clicking where you want them to face. The same goes for movement. Highlight and group all, and left click where you want them to move while holding down Alt.

At least I'm pretty sure its Alt, I just do it without thinking. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[motorhead]

Rom: I am sorry that my post offended you. I think a more specific tactical question would be lead to better discussions (bridge battles thread in main hall is a good example). I posted the links to those two threads because explanations with examples covering your questions are already there. Specifically, the semi-n00b tactical primer (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=20;t=5896) already gives examples of close/loose/wedge/retreat/hold/engage.

Aelwyn: Where did you obtain your information? I've never heard of hold formation giving +2 morale (The strat guide give HF +2defense/-2attack). Also, the guide does not give hold position the modifiers you state.

[Cebei]

I dont know according to what criteria great general is identified, but I can give you one tactic that really pisses enemy off and disrupts his formation both on defence and offence: Usage of horse archers

Do not employ a pre-determined tactic before the battle. If you are on the defence, send your horse archers to enemy's flanks when enemy is halfway and this will cause the peppered units turn towards your orse archers. When the enemy's front formation is split, this will create a gap where your heavy cavalry can fill.

On the offence, employ the above tactic, but this time, your whole army must be marching towards the defensive formation.

It is mostly a matter of time and sequence. With experience you will see how you can be quicker during battle.

Oh, and another veteran tip: when the enemy's routing, do not attack your troops to routing units. Instead run your units through them. This way your units will enjoy a charge bonus and wont stop when capturing routers..

[Lord Rom]

Thanks guys these tips are gold [U]I'll check back to see if anyone else can contribute later. Right now i've gotta get my notepad and write some of this down. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[[DnC]]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Oct. 05 2003,11:55)]Oh, and another veteran tip: when the enemy's routing, do not attack your troops to routing units. Instead run your units through them. This way your units will enjoy a charge bonus and wont stop when capturing routers..
Downside of that is that you constantly have to direct the charges, because the enemy shifts from direction when you charge straight at them.

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Oct. 04 2003,22:55)]Aelwyn: Where did you obtain your information? I've never heard of hold formation giving +2 morale (The strat guide give HF +2defense/-2attack). Also, the guide does not give hold position the modifiers you state.
What you refer to from the strat guide for Hold Formation is actually for Hold Position. The Hold Position icon is the one with the men crouched holding their spears at an angle for oncoming attackers. It makes sense that they'd get -2 attack, and +2 defense. Also the Hold Formation is opposite of Engage at Will. If the men are mixed in, and don't know where the rest of their unit is, it will not help their morale. But being in well defined rows does, they stick together, thus the +2 morale.

I know you didn't ask all that, specifically where I got the info. I can't really say, maybe from reading this forum, or from playing MP since June of last year....not sure. But if I am wrong, then I've been employing these tactics on MP completely wrong for over a year, and I better get my story straight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[motorhead]

Aelwyn: I think you should dig out your strat guide and turn to page 37/38. I'll quote a section from mine for Hold Formation: Soldiers fight defensively, which the combat system simulates by subtracting 2 from their Attack factor and adding 2 to their Defense. Spear and pike-armed units get an additional Defense bonus due to the wall of spears they present. I think that pretty definitively defines hold formation as getting the attack/defense modifiers, don't you? And on Hold Position: This is in contrast to Hold Formation mode, which affects the behavior of the individual soldiers within the unit. It also lists three behaviors units in Hold Position exhibit (facing, pusuit, and position) but lists no attack/defense/morale modifiers for being in this engagement mode. Units are penalized -2 morale for being in disordered or loose formation, but other than your post i can't find any reference to +2 morale for being in a particular formation or mode.


Quote[/b] ]But if I am wrong, then I've been employing these tactics on MP completely wrong for over a year, and I better get my story straight. I'm afraid you've been clicking the wrong buttons for the wrong reasons for the past year. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Aelwyn]

Don't have a strat guide. Maybe I'm wrong, but my tactics have worked pretty well for me, so I'll keep using them. .

[motorhead]

Aelwyn: By all means, play the game however it pleases you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif . However, before you dole out any more information, perhaps you should re-read the beginner's guide and the table of contents. Have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Kongamato]

Wedge has very limited uses. When you need a quick way to re-form your unit into a compact formation, wedge will work, especially when charging through a gap in the line. However, this is about the extent of it's usefulness. The added attack may help a bit when charging, but that gets limited to a very few men. The bulk of the wedge mostly smashes into itself, giving you a very compact, flankable ball of warriors. When I read about how a strong cavalry unit nearly charges through another unit, I imagine what would happen without wedge on. You want the most men possible to hit the enemy during the charge.

An unintended use of the wedge is where you can use a wedged unit in Hold Position and Hold Formation and have it attack a unit that is in Hold Formation, like a spear unit. Only a miniscule amount of men will be fighting, so you can send in javelins, naptha, and even arrows at the unit that your wedge is fighting and you'll have a big open target to annihilate. It only works if the enemy is in Hold Formation, though.

When dealing with missile units that have a long reload time, I find that having them in Hold Formation and Hold Position helps. It may not help in the same way that it does in multiplayer, but it is key to the use of a tactic that I like to use. When you see a unit approaching your Hold/Hold wall of arbs/xbows/maybe even arquebusiers, turn fire-at-will off and press Halt. This will completely stop them from firing. Next, wait until the approaching unit is about 20-25 meters away. Then, turn fire-at-will back on, and Pow devastation. It's fun to watch a whole wall of your men go into their firing animation at once, aiming at one unit. Just make sure you have a unit behind the missile wall in case the unit you fired on does not rout. This is actually like a tactic used to stop cavalry in the days of the musket. If you had not had your wall in Hold/Hold, it's likely the Skirmish mode would have set in, and your wall would have turned tail and ran.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Lord Rom @ Oct. 03 2003,20:49)]What are some of the best tactics used by advanced generals? What exactly do the hold formation, hold position do for you? I know what the manual says but what exactly do they do? I know the spear troops get a bonus form hold formation but when if ever do you put other troops in it? The hold position when do u use it? And what about the engae at will? I've been playing a long time fairly successfully and rarely use these keys Let us know your good tactics
Great thread Rom Much has been said, and I agree with Aelwyn. I am no advanced general, but here's my two cents . . .

Hold Pos Once in position, I set pavs to Hold Pos to keep them from marching off. Also, they will return if run off by enemy units. I sometimes use this setting for my infantry when I need that extra defensive bonus or when I want to keep track of my units.

Melee units not set to Hold Pos will chase routing enemies and when the routing enemies are all dead or out of contact your unit will just stop and stand. With Hold Pos on they will return to their position when they lose contact with the routing enemy. Both settings have their advantages and disadvantages. For example, on Hold Pos a unit that is returning to its original postion will walk dangerously close to enemy units and become vulnerable to missile fire or flank attack. Off Hold Pos it is a little easier to see that the unit is standing (the icon shows no motion).

Hold FormOnce in position I set my pavs to Hold Form. Now they won't run if approached by charging enemy. This means that I must guard them closely, or an enemy cav can wreak considerable damage.

For spear units, this is an important setting since it holds the troop in formation - in effect one solid unit - imagine riding a horse into a well formed wall of spears Don't use this for swords and axes as they work just fine as 60 independent guys.

Engage-at-will I set my other missile troops (like Nizaris, or Byz Cav) to EAW in order to get them to fight melee. Notice how a missile troop (like Bulgarian Brigands or Genoese Sailors) changes from skirmish to EAW if you select that unit, hit Alt-left click on an enemy unit.

Regarding the wedge: I string my pavs out until they are 2 deep, making a thin but long unit. This allows all in the unit to shoot, but makes manuevering in close quarters risky. If I want to reposition a 2 deep pav unit I quickly switch to wedge, relocate, then return to tight or loose formation, and the unit will return to the 2 deep state.

Kongamoto's suggestion about turning Fire-at-Will off then blasting appraoching units is great. I also turn FAW off to conserve arrows. For example, you have 2 pavs and the enemy has 4. Send your two within firing range - after you start to lose men switch to loose formation. The enemy is now wasting arrows on fewer and fewer men. When the situation is reversed, turn a unit or two to FAW off and save the arrows. This is especially important for Longbows and Nizaris and the like. These units can go thru their arrows really fast - so set to FAW off and wait until melee troops are in range - then turn FAW on and watch the bodies fall.

ichi

[Hetman_Koronny]

*bows*

In defensive battles I tend to put my ranged units behind infantry. I set the former in Hold Formation and usually FAW. And then it depends. If I have spearmen or the like in front I usually order Hold Position especially when facing a lot of cavalry.
I’ve been playing the Turks recently and my 2 greatest, top notch armies consist mostly of Janissary soldiers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif My first line is made of JHI (4 sometimes 5 units) and the second is formed with JI (3 units in most cases). Then the JHI shouldn't be put on HoldPosition I guess as it’d decrease their attack value (correct me here please). I dont really wait untill the enemy charges at me - I command attack when they're really close and watch the cavs learning their last lesson ever http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Quite often, when I form a tight defensive structure the enemy seems somewhat discouraged and tends to walk or jog in front of my soldiers getting slaughtered by arrows. After a while is stops being fun so I usually attack them once they get really close. If I happen to be having spear units in front I switch off the HoldPosition (to avoid -2 to att in HP) and then double click enemy unit. Does it seem right? Should I also set EAW?

*bows*

[The Wizard]

Defense is my strongest playing style... there has never been a battle where I was forced into the defense that I lost... well, maybe one.. or two... heh.

Seriously now, I play best when defending, but I've never really used hold formation.. maybe once or twice hold position but that's it i guess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Aelwyn]

Also something I forgot and ichi reminded me. Putting your missles on hold position will stop them from chasing after units they're shooting that are being pulled back. By this I mean, if you're shooting an inf. or cav unit, and your opponent pulls back the unit, if your unit is on hold position it will not keep running forward trying to get a shot in. That will prevent you from being lured into a bad position by your enemy, and will keep your missles closer to their support, so they don't get ran down by cavs.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (Hetman_Koronny @ Oct. 07 2003,10:33)]

...JHI shouldn't be put on HoldPosition I guess as it’d decrease their attack value (correct me here please)...
... spear units in front I switch off the HoldPosition (to avoid -2 to att in HP)...


HK: Hold Formation gives the +2defense/-2attack. With respect to spears the strategy guide states: Setting a spear-armed unit to Hold Formation is the best way to keep it well-formed and further magnifies its defensive properties.

Hold Position affects the behavior of the unit as a whole. From the strat guide:
1) the unit will not change its 'facing direction' to shoot at targets, nor will it turn toward enemies attacking it
2) if firing missiles, the unit will not pursue targets that move out of range
3) if the unit is forced to move away from its last ordered position by an enemy advance, it will attempt to move back to that position afterward
4) if the unit is engaged in melee combat and its opponents run away or disengage, it will not pursue them unless its Morale is in the Impetuous state.

[lancer63]

A lance, wedge cav. formation was designed to provide the most concentrated charge force applied to a particular point of an enemy formation, in order to disrupt it and break the morale of the enemy. Of course it can be a costly formation given the high casualties taken by the front riders. I agree it's not the most effective formation, but it sure is fun to watch two wedges of royal crash headlong at each other or a unit of pronoiai plunge into a wall of sarracen infantry.

Thanks for the tips on formations guys. Very enlightening. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[icebrain]

I've managed several battles along the lines of 373 killed/120 captured to losing 28. In these cases, I found a hill, set up a bunch of chivalric sergeants in a half-circle, and deployed six units of arbalesters in single-deep rows behind my spear units. Everybody got hold formation/position. As the arbs ran out, I'd withdraw them and bring in more. I also kept a unit of chivalric men at arms as a skirmish force, hiding them around back and running out to hit someone if they came too close. This works especially well against the turks.

Another very nice defense: I've beaten off the golden horde before they even established. Basically, I had 700 chivalric sergeants/MAA and some arbalesters. I put everyone in the big central forest, and slaughtered the horde.

What's even more interesting is that, when they reappeared 20 years later in a different province, a rebel faction killed them off.

I've only been driven off the field once, and that was 120 cavalry (royal knights mainly) against my 100 woodsmen.