View Full Version : Israel's Options
1- A greater Israel should be pursued. Ignoring international opinion or pressure the occupied territories won through war and sanctioned by scripture should be formally annexed. Occupants will either become citizens or be driven East of the Jordan River. Palestinians are Jordanians, any other designation is contrived.
2- A two state solution with the proviso that peace be attained first. Peace is the necessary precondition and guarantee that both parties are honest brokers. Peace will be pursued through a policy of negotiation/retribution for hostile acts.
3- A two state solution is possible but only after the elimination of all threats to Israel's security have been removed. This view advocates the proactive removal of all percieved enemies to the state. State sanctioned assasination of any/all Palestinian threats is acceptable.
4-A two state solution with the West Bank and Gaza physically divided from Israel via an improved and strenghed Hadrian's Wall model. All ties, commerical or otherwise are cut. Jewish settlements either return to Israel proper or sever citizenship. The Palestininans are to have no contact(commerical/travel) with Israel. They are free to fend for themselves.
5-Unilateral withdrawal to the 1967 border. Removal of all Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Immediate recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of a new Palestinian state regardless of any continuation of terrorist acts or future hotility.
6-Immediate deportation of all intifada leaders. Declaration of martial law in occupied territories. Imprisonment/deporation of all malcontents. Establishment of an Israel friendly commitee of Palestinians. Through this council negotiate the final stages of a two state solution.
7- Declare for immediate UN occupation and administartion of occupied territories, declaring a willingness to accept any decision of the Security Council regarding the ultimate state of Palestine even to and including the ultimate control of Jerusalem.
8- Declare for immediate UN occupation and administration of occupied teritories, declaring a willingness to accept any decision of the Security Council regarding the final state of Palestine except, in regards to Jerusalem, which will either be declared a free city or remain in Israeli control.
Some of these options are more realistic than others. There are no doubt other options as well. These represent what I thought of late at night. Even so, what would you choose?
I voted 8, but I would like to make the restriction that not virtually any decision must be accepted. Israel should work fully together with the UN and let them enforce a bilateral solution. But this must also mean that the UN recognizes Israel`s interests when searching for a solution.
Those stupid Israelis should let the Palestinians have their land http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Sharon is a disgrace to all of Judaism, and Humanity in General http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif He is such a hypocrit. The Israeli army is the real terrorist organization Why do we support them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
To the Krazy Munkey,
I sense there's an opinion pushing your writing. #
I'm interested in the their land clause and the disgrace and the real terroist organization clause, please explain in more detail how these conclusion have come about with such force.
All the solutions rest upon force; the only way force will create a lasting peace is in the annihilation of one side.
Number 5 does not; the chances of this coming to pass and not being exploited for the accomplishment of the above are practically zero-given the present political situation.
Possible pre-conditions to peace might include a realistic assessment of what an economy for Palestine might consist of. I suspect it would look like Isreal's, less the massive infusion of money from the U.S.; in other words no real economy at all.
Both sides must be committed to peace for it to work. That means accepting the fact that violence will occur, and trusting the other to deal with it as violence; not as a blow for US against THEM.
Excellent subject Pindar though it can get more than a bit ugly and easily turn in to a flame war between hot heads. It will need a close guarding from the rest of us.
Krazy Munkey, cool down … throwing accusations to people or states is no the best way to do business or go around in the forums especially when the subject is so delicate
I voted 8 though the write in my hart is 6. Unfortunately things have changed a lot since then. Both sides have lived in a war stat for so long that the hate runs deep. Both sides do not recognize the right of the other to exist. Though many times peace returned it was never long lasting nor untroubled. Even when historical agreements have been made radicals from both sides managed to have it there way.
We have seen this many times. The problem now is that from both sides the true power lies in the hands of extremists.
The Palestinians authority is totally power less to control the organizations like Hammas. There is also the oxymoron that the State of Israel demands that the Palestinians authority controls these organizations but also demands that the Palestinians authority is disarmed????
The Israeli on the other hand have turned to the radicals from the continuation of suicide bombings. Spearheading them is Ariel Sharon who was indicted from the War crimes tribunal in Belgium but the indictment was stopped since he is a head of state.
(Something that has not stopped several US administrations from taking aggressive actions in other cases)
I personally feel that peace will not come in the Middle East as long as the US is fully supportive of all actions and statements of Israel and the they do not accept the leaders of the extremist in the same table with Arafat who in that position can somewhat control them. Also disregarding Arafat is the singe most important evidence that the current Israeli government does not wont a true solution (i.e. My way or the high way … this is not recommended in foreign policy unless you are backed by someone truly powerful)
As a sub note …
It is well known that Israel has Nuclear weapons (last post on the subject appeared in the Guardiant … I think) and is considered to be the 5th ranking nation in nuclear capacity (Janes). Though denied by the official state it never hide its nuclear istallations.
I think what the Krazy Munkey was try to saying that in the time that israel was other the direction of england (after 2 world war) the israellist have done the same thing that the palestines are doing now,sharon give autorization to a a group of anti palestine enter in a refugee camp(palestine) was a slaugther womens and children was the mainly ppl there ,sharon was done the same thing that he acused arafat.
I voted 8 option
my mainly cause is because that territory is important for 3 of the main relegion of this world what better thing that the onu (the humanity high representation of justice to take care of that area ).
that place already see to much blood in is sole m8s
I voted number 1.
#That land belongs to Israel and the Scriptures have said so. If you don't believe/ the Scriptures then look at this. When the British Mandate ended in May 1948 the Land that GOD has given Israel, that same land was granted to the newbron State of Israel by the British as they withdrew. Thirdly secular historians have proven that a Kingdom of Israel did exist on that land thousands of years ago and in the Middle East the older the claim the better it is. the Palenstenian claim in comparsion are younger then Isreal's. The Palenstenians are NOT the descendents of the people living in Israel before Joshua's conquest. Secular historians have aknowledged that the events in Exodus and Joshua had happened btw. The Palenstenians are a arabic people that came to Israel around the time of great islamic conquests (sorry don't remember the date, could someone help me with that), thusly their claim is younger. Another point would be that the Israelis are not terrorists and they are just fighting to defend themselves against terrorists. Israel is the only democary in the Middle East and thusly the UN or the US would most different need to support its claims to the land. Any Palenstenian state would be a Autocratic state or a Dictatorship, with Yasser Arafat as its head, and no one wants him in a place of power, his cousin Haj Amin Hussieni was best friends with Adolf Hitler. I think that a Israeli state in complete control of the lands the Scriptures say that they must hold is the only way that things must be.
1 i am here to have fun not to get http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif .
2 for respect i will not engage you
but i will make a question
you are right I love history and i know that isralit ppl was there , WAS there but leave that place ,of course is place was taken its is the same thing if know appaers somone that saying that is ppl and him are celts Than almost of europe was for him (lolol let out this way the way you are saying is this a native american (cheyene etc ) could apears now and say hey my ppl are the owners of this place we have full right to be where m8.
Firts think what you want to say m8.
and the isralist have done terorist actions against england m8 ,that was the reason that the english want to get out of there
ps I ask sorry to all moderators and other users if a get to violent
Shogun 144 , with the same logic you can say the coalition forces should withdraw from Bagdad and it should be given back to Mongolia. The Mongols have conquered it in a fair way and the original inhabitants don`t need it anymore (because they have all been slaughtered). The Mongol Khans were descendants of the Grey Wolf and the whole world is therefore rightfully theirs. And Mongol territory was much more peaceful than Saddams regime or any Islamic regime we can expect there.
In any case, your policy would mean to avoid peace at all costs. And that`s what we all want, isn`t? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Deadrunner, A. Saturnus that logic was only meant for that situation only appling to others is a different matter entirly and derveres their own disscusion. also A. Saturnus I want peace as much as next man but this is a fallen world and war is rampart here, patictury in the Middle East.
Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 10 2003,19:00)]Deadrunner, A. Saturnus that logic was only meant for that situation only appling to others is a different matter entirly and derveres their own disscusion. also A. Saturnus I want peace as much as next man but this is a fallen world and war is rampart here, patictury in the Middle East.
Well, that`s the definition of double-standard. If you argue in a certain way, it is only honest to apply the same logic in all comparable situations. Otherwise you get an ethic of particularity which is unfair in the extreme.
The reason I used that counterexample was to show your arguments would lead to obviously absurd consequences if applied in an unbiased case.
A. Saturnus that is your opinion and I have mine which I have stated, neither of us isn't going to change the others mind so why don't we drop this and believe want we want.
like i said shogun i am here for fun m8 ,nest time you must try to see the big picture nothing is white and black
Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 10 2003,19:31)]A. Saturnus that is your opinion and I have mine which I have stated, neither of us isn't going to change the others mind so why don't we drop this and believe want we want.
What do you mean with my opinion? I explained why your argument is invalid. If you want to argue that it is valid, we can have an interesting conversation about logic - a topic I´m highly interested in - so that would be off topic.
I do of course realize that you probably won`t change your opinion about the best policy for Israel. That`s ok.
Most discussions here don`t lead to a change of opinion. But it is still worthwhile to present the reasons one has for his opinions and let them be judged by others. It´s a way to widen our horizons and it even may help us to make our opinions even better defended, since we learn what counterpoints can rise against them. What I said proves in no way that your opinion is false, only that the arguments for it are vulnerable. I invite you to defend them or find better ones. If you do, I will challenge them or accept them, by this, we both learn.
Let's keep the discussion on a rational & civil level please. A similar topic in the Tavern got nasty a time or two. I don't want to see a repeat of that here. Thank you.
Edit: Very nice statement on the purpose of these discussions A.Saturnus.
Well said ... discussion is one of the things that separate the human race from the animals. If we can't have one civilised rational discussions then we should start thinking.
The scriptures say many things ... many of them are allegoric so they are not meant to be taken in a word-by-word basis. Also scriptures have been written down by men, wise men non-the less but men after all. They had their passions, their biasing, their faith ... not all is as it appears to be at a point in time. That is why we do not write history unless a generation or two pass
If you consider this as you said it then follow this ... if at the end you thing it is crazy this is exactly what you claimed …
Starting from me ... I am Greek ... today’s Greeks are the descendants of many nations ... we can also claim that we are the direct descendants to the Byzantine Empire. Since the Byzantines were actually Romans ... and Rome was invited by Germanics we can claim that we are actually the only descendants of the Roman Empire and since we are Greeks the only descendants of the Alexandrian Empire ... So actually we should claim ... Europe, as north as Hadrian’s Wall in Scotland, the Rhine and Danube rivers. The North Africa, Middle east ... and as East as the Caspian sea, Afganistan (Bactria), Pakistan, and a large part of India (the high of Bactrian kigndom). Crazy ... wait it gets worse ... since the modern mathematics are based on some simple rules derived by Thalys, Pythagoras, and others ... every time you open your PC, Calculator, design a building, can, plane ... etc you should pay royalties to Greece ... nice if it was true http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .
Well both the Israelis and the Palestinians would have to live in the same patch of land ... they better find a way with out the It is my diving right to be here stuff This is just the thing that gets people killed down there.
Komninos, I have just read your post and I understand what you are saying. However the scriptures where written by the Holy Spirit of God working through man, thus God is the true author of the Bible. I understand that you and probably many others wont like the statement and I accept that. I second thing is that I did not state the land belongs to Israel by right of conquest. Another thing is that the Palenstenians do own the land Israel now inhabits they invaded it does not belong to them it belong Israel and no one else.
shogun 144 i respect your beliefs .
1. the jews left israel by thei own foot a vacum was created in that place ,than otherr clan appaer and take over the land the same way that they take when they arrived from exodus.
2.ancient israel was large numbers of wars (they conquer some locations)
3.they leave to become exiles by their own hands they get to all europe that way
4.2 world war after this the winners of the contest resolve to put thejews in one place several locations here put ,one was Madeira ,other the know israel.
5.the new home was in conjuction with the palestine english become the guardias in that place working other the comands of the new formed group O.N.U
6.isrealist started to put bombs ,making ilegal trips to get miliatry equipment to the way of conquering the new land from england .
7.engalnd get out of there to prevent more blood in their ranks
8a) isreal is declared by them a republic ,palestine made tghe same thing because he fell under pressure
b)isreal started war against palestine arab world response(engalnd and france give secret help to cairo against israel)
the porcess till our days our a nightamre to the ppl (palestine and isralist crimes our comited against the two sides ,sharon is one of that criminals
this is the reason that onu must intervine to put order and justice in a place that is holy to 3 main religions of the is world
# 1. The Jews did not leave by thier own accrod they where forced. After Jerusalem fell the Roman armies of Titus in AD 70 they began to force the Jewish population to leave the land in event called the Great Dispora.
# 2. the Kingdom of Israel never made any conquests after Joshua, with the exception of the conquest of Jerusalem by David.
# 3. The Jews did not become exiles on thier own arrcod they forced by out by three different powers: Assyria, Babylon, and the Roman Empire.
#4. After WW2 the UN forced Britian to fufill an old promise made to the rabbis in 1918 to create a Jewish State, it was the UN's idea to create a Palenstinen State.
5. The creation of a new Jewish State was not made in corallabration with the Palenstinens, they wanted to destroy Israel and anyone that got in thier way, even the British.
6. Israel did not conquer the land from the Brtish, it was granted by a UN resolution. Never did Israel make anything even partly resembing a terrorist attack on Britain or any other country for that matter.
7. While the British did want out because the Palenstinen attacks where more brutal, the withdrawal was mainly due to the Un resolution that created a Jewish State.
8a. the Palenstinens had no intention of creating a republic, Islam simply does not allow such a thing.
8b. Israel did not start the wars against the Arab nations, the National Arab League Council in Damacus declerced war on them. Britian and France never supported the arabs, I believe what you are referring to is the 1956 war where Britian and France gave materials to Israel to sieze the Suez Canal in Egypt so that Britian and France could place the Canal zone under their control.
whooo, well that is all I am posting for today. cya later.
Show me the scriptures Shogun 144
Perhaps I can assume your a non-Jewish Christian Zionist?
Why should Israel concern Christians anyway, the reason seems to be eschatological rather than any prophetic obligation on the part of Christians. Although, I do not see how it would quicken the Second Coming as most would argue.
ANyhoo, my views.
The way Arafat is behaving, he makes Ariel Sharon look like a dove and the Israelis doves too.
Bring back the former Palestinian PM and for goodness sakes give him some real power
The problem is not Israel, it is the attitudes and mentality of both sides since Israel gained independence. Through misunderstanding, war and plain political correctiness, both have entrenched positions making any initiative hard. Any initiative is seen as a sign of weakness....hint. developed through years of warfare.
The only initiative between the Arabs and the Jews came from Sadat and Rabin, who paid with their lives. Hmmm strange coincidence there.
Shalom, Salam, Pax, theres a word for peace in every language but no one knows how to put that into action.
Word of Faith movement is HERESY....thought I'd put it there for posterity.
I personally blame the Palestinian Leadership(namely Arafat) for supporting some of the Terrorist. and would agree with Kataphrakoti in saying get the old Palestinian PM Back.
Quote[/b] ]2. the Kingdom of Israel never made any conquests after Joshua, with the exception of the conquest of Jerusalem by David.
Well, the scriptures say explicitly that the Jews came from Egypt and conquered the land they called then Israel. Of course, more reliable sources see things a bit different, but certain is that there have lived non-jewish people in the region before.
Quote[/b] ]Shalom, Salam, Pax, theres a word for peace in every language but no one knows how to put that into action.
That`s right, peace sells... but who`s buyin`?
A. Saturnus the conquest of Israel was by Joshua. And kataphraktoi I am not a Catholic. Unlike them I support Israel and also the meaning of the word Zionist is a Christian that supports Israel. For the most part Zionist are Protestants. And Saturnus as I said the Palenstenians are desendents of the peoples living in Israel at the time of Moses and Joshua.
shogun the jewsleave israel only to return ............ a lot of centuries later.
I regert what happen in ww2 but is time to stop to blame us (woldr) to what happen but always take the lesson to that dont repit.
and for that we are clossing our eyes of the extermination that palestine ppl are surfering form isral what sharon and is lap dogs are doing is the same that hitler have done m8 is genocide
what way have a poor country to fight back than terrorist acts .
i dont like terrorism and i am aganst it when civils are in way .That is way ONU must enter in isreal and control that place is the only way to peace m8
unless you whan genocide of the palestine
I know the Jews left only to return, but what I am saying is that they did not leave by thier own will.
Also what you are charging Ariel Sharon of doing is what the Palenstinens are doing to the Israelis. Do know how many people die each day because of the Palenstenin terrorists? Do you know how many die because of the suicide bombers, car bombers and more? Israel is only defending herself Deadrunner, and it is Arafat not Sharon who is most like Hitler. For goodness his cousin Haj Amin Husseini was best friends with Hitler. I bet that is where the Palenstenins get there ideas for how to kill innocet Israeli civians.
I am not saying that arafat is a angel but sharon is not a angel to
sharon was responsible of massacre in a refugee camp.
i am not married but one thing that i am realy thinking is not to put a child in this crazy world that the first choice is war, the second is war .............. if war dont do the job then is a nuke in the bastards.
we are in xxi century and we still like the kings in dark ages
the law of the stronger
m8 i am tired to see the news is always the same thing
israelist and palestine must go to paece abd for that the sharon and arafat must shut up
I understand what you are saying but there will be no peace in the world until the return of Jesus, I know you probably wont agree on that point but even if UN does intervene it wont make any difference all we can do watch and for those that think like me support Israel for they are the apple of God's eye. I know you probably wont agree with that either.
does anyone here know what the actual topic is? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
when you find out, let me know. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Oh Hello Katar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
What we discussing is what course of action should Israel take. Feel free to state your opinion on the subject.
Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 11 2003,22:32)]Also what you are charging Ariel Sharon of doing is what the Palenstinens are doing to the Israelis. Do know how many people die each day because of the Palenstenin terrorists? Do you know how many die because of the suicide bombers, car bombers and more? Israel is only defending herself Deadrunner, and it is Arafat not Sharon who is most like Hitler. For goodness his cousin Haj Amin Husseini was best friends with Hitler. I bet that is where the Palenstenins get there ideas for how to kill innocet Israeli civians.
Well, untill now, much more Palestinians have died in this conflict. And more of them must live in fugitive camps under bad conditions. But we still cannot speak of a genocide yet. Though it may still come if both sides keep their current policy.
well, isreal got the techology, the #, why waste it, send in tanks ,swat teams, helicopters and bombers, take out all palnestian leaders, then take out every terooist u can fine, and i mean shooting squads. if nothing works, hey isreal's the only nuclear power left http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Citera[/b] (bighairyman @ Okt. 12 2003,10:55)]well, isreal got the techology, the #, why waste it, send in tanks ,swat teams, helicopters and bombers, take out all palnestian leaders, then take out every terooist u can fine, and i mean shooting squads. if nothing works, hey isreal's the only nuclear power left http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
And it would only make the Israelis the biggest genociders (atleast second, the nazis killed more people than those in concentration camps. How many lives in Gaza and Palestine by the way?)in history. Good example on the oppressed becoming the oppressors...
Shougun 144, do you belive that anything in the Bible is true and that nothing in the Bible is outdated? It would be quite surprising considering that God didn't directly wrote it and it would need good knowledge of the future. And concidering the free will of the humans it would be quite hard to do that. And to add it even worse, to give the humans a book about the future would definatly intrude on the humans free will. Yes it would be nice with an update of the Bible, we need a new prophet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
About the qustion, I voted alternative 8 because it seems to be the only way. We NEED a third part in this conflict that has gotten to far and the hatred has grown too much. Sadly the Israelis refuses any UN-activity in the area and the US supports them with their veto. The other option is that the Israelis endure the attacks and withdraws from atleast most of the area witch I find quite hard. The Palestines has it alot harder considering that they only need one person to break a ceese-fire.
The Bible is still revelent today as it was when it was written. Also UN intervention will not change a thing, no peace will come to that area and indeed the whole world until the return of Christ. I know that you will probably not like the above statement but that is my belif.
I just returned from a stay in Uganda, two of the available five TV channels in my University guest house were evangelical Christian ones run by Americans. Both channels had different programs that were very excited about the return of the Jews to Palestine. They said this signposted us as being closer to the Second Coming as foretold in the Bible. Reading Shogun144's writing, I believe such an opinion is consistent with his.
The scarey thing is that adherents of this view are lobbying to influence the US foreign policy and, I fear, sabotage the future of Middle East peace talks. Like Shogun144 said there will be no peace until the second coming. The unstated inference being, so why bother?
I only wish these folks would stick to prayer and leave diplomacy to those who will engage with the realties on the ground now, rather than the writing of some people from the region two thousand years ago.
Quote[/b] (Shogun 144 @ Oct. 12 2003,20:19)]The Bible is still revelent today as it was when it was written. Also UN intervention will not change a thing, no peace will come to that area and indeed the whole world until the return of Christ. I know that you will probably not like the above statement but that is my belif.
I have all respect for your belief and maybe it is as you say, but I hope you understand that more worldly people still try to find a solution that doesn´t require a divine interference. Anything else would be fatalism.
I may be pessimistic. The only place where keeping conflict at bay through force was tried, failed. (re: choice#8)
Tito did manage to keep a lid on things so long as he was alive. As soon as he was gone, factions proceeded to do what they wanted to do.ie: ethnic cleansing of regions, establishment of nationalist claims and so on. Despite the normalization of living and working together for decades, the minority of ppl in the former Yugoslavia could over-ride that state-of-affairs. Once the shooting starts, the choices are pretty clear: join the cause and get some protection; stand like a deer caught in the headlights and get rolled over.
Northern Ireland may show some hope for that kind of solution. If the UN can commit to centuries of policing the situation, there may be hope.
Wow, I just saw this poll…
I voted for option # 2
As HopAlongBunny stated; to force a peace between the two in question might lead to worse hostilities later. Who would be able to force Israel anyway?, which leads to the other topic in this thread... First thing first.
Who is going to teach these people... they obviously do not quite comprehend the consequences of their current “reactiveness” or is it pure blind hate?
The hatred has to be undone for this to be a lasting peace.
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians need to actively let the past be the past and ‘forget’ any atrocities committed by either.
There is no use in living in the past. You cannot move either of the ‘nations’ out of the area.
Take a country like postcolonial South Africa.
If any black South African would interpret his contemporary life to that of the massive atrocities committed to him or his parents since 1948, a peaceful coexistence in that country would not be possible.
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have a surplus of traumatic history and they both must actively agree to forget this past.
Reconciliation is not possible without politic and redistributive justice.
On this point, the responsibility weighs heavier on the Israelis, because it is the Palestinians that have been bereft of politic, social and economic rights by the Israeli state since 1948.
Unless the Israelis accept this fact, the bloodbath will continue.
As Simon and others have already stated;
The situation in Israel is a hot topic amongst the Christian denominations, as most of them believe that in the very last days the worlds combined forces will stand against Israel (UN?).
Moreover, on the very day that they are about to attack, the Messiah will come and split mount olives in twain and wreck havoc on Israel’s enemies (in all the apocalypse books e.g. John’s Revelation).
This is the day (according to Christianity) that the Jews will be converted...
The day that they will acknowledge Jesus Christ, the one they crucified, as being their God...
Well, it seems (to these people) that any peace negotiation in Israel will be futile and that all one can do is waiting for this doomsday.
It has all been prophesied and therefore not changeable.
Is this why America (the country with probably the highest density of fundamental Christians) is such a supporter of Israel?
You had better be on the right side when the sh*t hits the fan... If this be the case, it grieves me that so much pain and suffering is shielded under the wings of misconceived religious faith.
The day that the ma kind leave is whell chair behind will be a happy day in all world .
Religion was a tool to explain what havent explanation in that time.
are we still the australoptecos of the ancient time that only have sounds to express the fellings are none animal type is so eager to kill is species then mankind only thing we see is destruction ,that was the main gift of religion(war for god was the nickname to massacre).
war to the second coming (what human still lives when that thing resolve to appear)
you said bad to the fanatics of islaim but you are equall to then death of the infidels i thinkid that crusaders where only in total war.
what now they dont convert lets go for nukes
i know lets put them all in a gaz chamber(only thing lefts is put the hand in the air and say sigh heil)
lookliked that one holocaust is not enough to mankind learn the lesson
lololol and we said that we are smart .......................... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
its is the end of the world and i fell fine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I have the relipes to recent posts and in reply to Simon Appleton I have this to say. In the Bible it says that he who supports Israel is truly blessed and he who does not has much to fear. And to A. Saturnus my worthy opennet I have this to say. I understand what you say and secularists will look to a wordly solution. However I and many Christians have our beliefs which we will continue to follow.
Quote[/b] ]In the Bible it says that he who supports Israel is truly blessed and he who does not has much to fear.
Why do you equate the Israel of the Old Testament with Israel the 20th Century State?
Quote[/b] ]Shogun 144,
In the Bible it says that he who supports Israel is truly blessed and he who does not has much to fear.
Why do you equate the Israel of the Old Testament with Israel the 20th Century State?
there are several answers to that question, but unfortunately none of them are flattering to the wee lad. #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Yes, yes, yes I've heard it all before about being blessed by God if you bless Israel and being cursed if you curse Israel. Somwhere in Genesis.
But what does that have to to with supporting Israel?
Does the verse in Genesis have anything to do with the modern state of Israel? No, it is referring to Jews and the descendants of Abraham, not the modern state of Israel. I've read the arguments before: look at Rome, look at Byzantium, look at Russia, look at Spain, etc, etc.
Persecution of Israel and persecution of Jews are two different concepts altogether.
Christians are Jews too. Think about that.
Circumcised by heart of by flesh?
Children of Abraham by faith or by lineal descent?
Israel is as much my land as it is the Jews.
If I'm correct, Christians share the same privileges from the Old Covenant as the New Covenent. WHy should the Jews have all the perks?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I wonder Shogun, u sound like one of them evangelical/pentecostal/charismatic types, they're the ones who are into the whole Christian Zionism thing.
You ask how I equte the Israel of the Old testment to the modren state. Well here is your answer: The Israelis are still the children of God, it doesn't matter what time you are talking about the Israelis are still Jewish and therefore they are desendents of Abraham so there for they are the same people that God says to support. And even if you are Jewish and not an Israeli you still part of the Nation of Israel because in the Bible it says that Jewish people are part of the Nation of Israel, it matters not if you are or aren't part of the State of Israel.
Quote[/b] ]And even if you are Jewish and not an Israeli you still part of the Nation of Israel because in the Bible it says that Jewish people are part of the Nation of Israel, it matters not if you are or aren't part of the State of Israel.
ah well... that puts me out of the running, i`m Celtic and i`m atheist. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Quote[/b] (katar @ Oct. 14 2003,14:17)]
Quote[/b] ]And even if you are Jewish and not an Israeli you still part of the Nation of Israel because in the Bible it says that Jewish people are part of the Nation of Israel, it matters not if you are or aren't part of the State of Israel.
ah well... that puts me out of the running, i`m Celtic and i`m atheist. #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
shogun 144 if the bible says that you must jump to fire you will do it??
1 of it is prove that bible itself was been so much raped and changed by the time (to serve the church better)
2 the most sad is to see that fanatism in relegion (we see in fundamentalism islamic groups) i was with the idead that catholic fanatism was over my mistake
with this topic i am starting to think another possibility nuke the place .
no more holy places to the 2 religion
Here is my ansrew to you:
The bible the speak of here is the Catholic Bible, the bible used by Prostestants is the same as the Stepenguit or the Greek bible. When Martin Luther saw the corrupt Catholic bible he had a illegal Greek Bible brought to his church and he translated it to German completly unedited. William Tyndale translated the German one into English using the Greek Bible to cross check it. Tyndale's edited bible was later mass produced as the King James Bible (for King James I authorized it). The King James is the one that most Protestants use.
# # I am not a Catholic fanatic Deadrunner I am a Prostestant. I am not a fanatic of any kind period. #
The point is:
Israel is no longer a Jewish monopoly.
Even the Bible u read says that a real Jew is one that follows the law by faith rather than by works.
Being a Christian entitles you to the same rights as a Jew.
I am sick and tired of the Theophoric arguments for the Jews claiming they have special privlieges and special treatment as if they're superior to the GOYIM(non-Jews).
By the logic of the Bible - supporting the state of Israel does squat for God's blessing or cursing. There is a deeper implication that is greater than being an ethnic Jew.
Israeli has never designated a Jew - it covers the Palestinians, the Druzes, non-Jews and Jews.
Israel no longer consists of 12 tribes(at least for now) - no Jew knows what tribe they belong to, the only identifiable one is Judah.
Israel takes on a bigger meaning than just the Jews.
I refuse to be blackmailed by enthusiastic Zionists/Pro-Israeli supporters who say that unless I support Israel I am somehow against God himself. (I'm not pointing to you Shogun)
There should be a Palestinian states anyway. If you believe that Jesus will bring peace in the end, then there should be no worry about a Palestinian state. According to the Bible everything will be his, so theres no need to get hung up about whether a Palestinian state is unbiblical or not.
Quote[/b] ]Who would be able to force Israel anyway?
Israel is potentionally vulnerable to the application of economic pressure. Should US funding be reduced, it would certainly feel the pinch. Whether the political will to sanction Israel exists is another matter.
I understand what you say but the Bible does say that even though Gentiles now have the same conavent as the Jews they are still the apple of God's eye nonetheless.
And also When Israel was created in May 1948 it was created as a Jewish state, a homeland for Jews all over the world. Yes there are others living in Israel, but it is a Jewish state first and formost.
I also understand about your views about the two state solution. The matter is that God said in the Bible that all of the land the he gave them must beinhabited by Israel when they return to the land.
Everyone, I have a final annoncement. I am backing out of this debate. I have done here all that I could and no one looks like there going to budge for thier position. Thus I am leaving this debate.
I've been trying to say all along, the logic of the Bible you use in the end arrives at the point that anything the Jews have, Christians have as well. Even if Israel is the apple of God's eye that means Christians too because they are part of the new Israel in the new covenant. Nothing is more worse when people seem to give the Jews a superior status over Gentiles. The logic of the Bible states clearly that a Jew has, from the beginning denoted those who believed in God and followed his precepts, Christians, if they believe are Jews
What is Israel, how do you define Israel and the borders it must have???????????????
Does the Bible say that Israel must have the West Bank and Gaza Strip?? If thats the logic, Israel might as well claim Syria up to the Euphrates then
Israel is a Jewish state but it is a secular state. My point is that Israel the modern state has no place in the Bible - the Bible focuses on the Jews not their political manifestation in the 20th century.
Did you expect people to change their views in the first place? Debate does not, and has not achieved anything, it is only there for stating your views and opinions.
Unlike the rest, Ive tried to debate on the same level as you using the logic of the Bible, but like interpretations, they are bound to be different.
Kind of like a Protestant saying Catholics are idol worshippers and heretic and vice - versa.
All this talk about scripture and Israel reminded me of an e-mail I got recently from the Left Behind Prophecy Club. #I don't know if any of Tim LaHaye's books have made it to Europe or not, but they are supposedly best sellers in the U.S. #They are a fictionalized account of the 'end times' wherein all good evangelical Christians will be magically transported to heaven and the rest of us will be forced to endure unimaginable suffering on earth until Jesus sorts everything out. #Here's an excerpt from their webpage:
Breaking Faith or Part of God's Plan?
A number of Christian groups have been urging Christians to contact the White House and urge President Bush not to move ahead with the road map. As we have reported in the past weeks, these groups feel that nothing should be done to weaken Israel's position and the potential to fulfill prophecies about the restoration of Israel to its biblical boundaries—therefore hastening Christ's return. Others share the belief that these prophecies will be fulfilled, confident that it will occur in God's timing and totally under his control. For these groups, the attempts of the president to pursue peace are laudable and may, in fact, open doors to the gospel within the Muslim world. You may well find yourself aligned with one of these views. Whichever approach you favor, it seems appropriate to pray for God's will—whatever direction that takes us at this time.
You see, for these folks, every crappy rotten thing that happens in the world is GOOD... because it means the 'end times' are near. #They think that when the shit really hits the fan they are all going to be 'taken up' and spared the messy consequences of earth's final days. #War in the Middle East... YAY #Environmental destruction... YAY #They don't think that they're in it for the long haul anyway.
The really scary thing is that these people have a lot of influence on the Bush administration.
Here is a MUST READ. #It is a transcript of a Sixty Minutes program from last June. #It will tell you why Evangelicals love Israel so much. #Scary stuff.
Here is an excerpt:
What's the number one item on the agenda of the Christian Right? Abortion? School Prayer? No and No. Believe it or not, what's most important to a lot of conservative Christians is the Jewish State. Israel: Its size, its strength, and its survival. Why?
There is the alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islamic terror. But it goes deeper. For Christians who interpret the bible in a literal fashion, Israel has a crucial role to play in bringing on the Second Coming of Christ.
Last fall, supporters of the Christian Coalition gathered on the Mall in Washington to express their faith and to lobby the administration. The rally was organized by the Christian Coalition, which wants to make sure that the Bush Administration sees the struggle in the Middle East between Jews and Muslims their way - the Christian way...
We REALLY have to get these people away from the White House
Peacemongers at it again...
Does the right to live also comes with the right to kill ? Does the right tp form a state meas also the rights to deprive others of one ?
God's chosen people ? From my understanding they're God chosen not because they're better than other races but because they're the worst. Many prophets are sent to them because they always distorted God's command. They change their scriptures.
LestaT, you're walking into a minefield with that last post.
1) Who is to judge who's the worst?
2) It is human nature to bend the rules to your advantage when you can - irregardless of your race, religion or culture.
Quote[/b] (LestaT @ Oct. 16 2003,09:05)]God's chosen people ? From my understanding they're God chosen not because they're better than other races but because they're the worst. Many prophets are sent to them because they always distorted God's command. They change their scriptures.
That misinterprets the idea of God's Chosen People. #God recognizes that humanity is flawed but he also saw the the Isrealites put their faith in him. God chose them because of where their faith lay. #Remember that the worshippers of the Golden Calf in Exodus, who did not follow the ten commandments, were destroyed. #Also if you read the Old Testament at first God does not differentiate between people, then he favors those that don't worship other deities, then he favors those that follow his commandments. #It is an evolutionary process based on faith and the recognition of human frailty.
According to this non-Jews understanding of Judaism, it is for this reason that the Jews have survived while their oppressors ultimately haven't.
Theophoric = God chosen nation/people
American Evangelicals are patriotic nationalist Theophoric sycophants, while I acknowledge that this is a generalisation, it is a generalise that has more depth in describing them Evangelicals than any another religious sect/denomination.
i already told what i think ONU must take over(it is funny but eeryone forget that place is not only holy to jews it is to catholic and islam, everbody have the right to prey to what they want if i want t prey to a pill of dog shit is up to me only)
palestine have more right now to stay there than the jews
Quote[/b] (DeadRunner @ Oct. 16 2003,14:28)]palestine have more right now to stay there than the jews
So where should the Jews go?
america http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif , j/k
but i think there should be 2 states in wht is the country of isrealie right now
I have one concept I struggle with:
is there such an ethnic group as the Palestinians?
It never really been discussed before, the evidence for an ethnic group called the Palestinians is lacking before the 20th century. And, incidentally, was never a term used by the Arabs in Palestine - as it was applied to the Jews exclusively.
Over the past 2000 years, there has never been a Palestinian people. The term used in modern books is only an anachronism.
The argument that the Philistines are linked to Palestinians is a flimsy construction and one used by revisionist historians who are, coincidentally, Palestinians. One could tell straight away because of the heavily layered Arab nationalism in the history texts.
There are also discrepancies as well:
Palestinian Arabs are Semitic
Philistines are Hamitic
Yet, the word 'Arab is put in front of the name Philistine which is erroneous in tiself.
In my opinion - and I don't want to sound anti-Arab, but unfortuantely, people will look at it this way - the modern day term Palestinian is a construction in the context of Arab nationalism. It was made from political necessity as a counterpart to the term Israeli.
Palestinian was, in the first place, a term for the Jews in Palestine, interestingly, it was rejected by the Arabs in Palestine. Since Palestine did not belong to either Syria or Egypt or Jordan it was stuck in a mezzanine situation - a situation not helped by the diverse ethnic mix in Palestine in the first place.
To me Palestinian denotes a regional identity, not an ethnic identity or a race, or a people. It is a modern adaption of a historical region for political means rather than any deep heartfelt meaning. However, it has become a political myth for today's Palestinians who haev embraced it as if it is real.
Although I still believe they should have a state of their own - even if I don't believe they are a nation or a people. It is only fair for the Arabs of Palestine to have a state after all their occupation of the regionf or centuries allows them to claim it as their homeland.
Heres another little topic to think about:
If the Israeli Jews live in historical Judaea and Samaria/Roman Palestina for a 1000 yrs can the Arabs argue that the Jews aren't indigenous but transplants from another country. This is bssed on the logic of Arab ownership of Palestine - they came as occupiers, then settles, then natives - the Jews are doing the same but in the context of an abnormal homecoming.
Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Oct. 16 2003,13:52)]
Quote[/b] (DeadRunner @ Oct. 16 2003,14:28)]palestine have more right now to stay there than the jews
So where should the Jews go?
i am not saying to take out the jews i am saying that ONU must take over that place israel stay under juridtion of ONU Period
Quote[/b] ]is there such an ethnic group as the Palestinians?
Your sense for this question's answer is correct. There is no historical Palestinian ethnicity. The former Arab occupants of the disputed territories referred to themselves as Southern Syrians. The term Palestinian is a product of the Twentieth Century. Even so, I think one who believes in self determination must by that sentiment allow for self identification. Thus, if a group wants to be known as a Palestinian I think one must concede the point regardless of contrivence.
Quote[/b] ]If the Israeli Jews live in historical Judaea and Samaria/Roman Palestina for a 1000 yrs can the Arabs argue that the Jews aren't indigenous but transplants from another country. This is bssed on the logic of Arab ownership of Palestine - they came as occupiers, then settles, then natives - the Jews are doing the same but in the context of an abnormal homecoming.
I think this is also correct. Both are transplants. The real criteria that allows legitimate claims to land is victory in war. War is the great clarifier whether it be questions of ownership over Prussia, Manchuria, Brittany, America itself or any other territory.
Quote[/b] ]Thus, if a group wants to be known as a Palestinian I think one must concede the point regardless of contrivence.
Palestinians must be the archetypal example of political construction for political ends. They were used by the Arabs in Egypt, Syria and Jordan and created as Palestinians but those countries never bothered to help them at all. They were deliberately impoverished to serve as propaganda fodder. A sad day for Arabs and Jews when such deception is generated to further conflict instead of peace.
I could never tell people my views on the Palestinians beause I'd be pulverised to a pulp. Especially some pro-Palestinians who would never hear a word of it. Sigh - meaningful dialogue is selective isn't it???
I wanted to make the following statement in a thread in the Tavern, but it was closed due to a dispute of two fellow members. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif But I think it fits this thread as well.
When we talk about Israel`s options, we should realize that - in spite of some claims - there`s no real danger to the state of Israel at the moment, whether a Palestinian state exists or not. There are horrible acts of terrorism, sure, but these don`t threaten the existence of Israel. I assume that per year more people die there in car accidents than due to terrorist attacks. Only a military threat could endanger Israel. But at the moment there`s no one in the region who might actually be willing to attack Israel. And even if, the chance to succeed would be minimal. It might change if someone got nuclear weapons, but in that case Israel`s option would change completely anyway.
Since it is not in danger, Israel hasn`t a need of a way to survive but to get rid of a terrorist threat. To achieve that a Palestinian state might actually be of advantage. Israel could then close it`s state borders to Palestine without that anyone could claim they were oppressing Palestinians. If Palestine as a state is hosting terrorists, it could be made accountable for it. In any case, giving the Palestinians an own state would give the enemy a solid shape. The enemy would then be a state that is supporting terrorists and not just the terrorists as it is now.
Quote[/b] ]Palestinians must be the archetypal example of political construction for political ends. They were used by the Arabs in Egypt, Syria and Jordan and created as Palestinians but those countries never bothered to help them at all. They were deliberately impoverished to serve as propaganda fodder. A sad day for Arabs and Jews when such deception is generated to further conflict instead of peace.
I think this is essentially correct.
Quote[/b] ]To achieve that a Palestinian state might actually be of advantage. Israel could then close it`s state borders to Palestine without that anyone could claim they were oppressing Palestinians. If Palestine as a state is hosting terrorists, it could be made accountable for it.
I don't believe there are any with a power position within Israeli politcs that argue against the two state solution. The sticky point seems to revolve around the fate of Jerusalem and whether state recognition should require the prior cessation of terrorist activity. Recall there are still a variety of terrorist organizations that claim driving the Jews into the sea as their ultimate goal.
It is an irony that Eastern Jerusalem contains the ingredient for much of Israeli identity and consciousness of a people is claimed by the Arabs. I don't believe a split of Jerusalem should happen. It would be like a Berlin Wall situation and a permanent reminder of emnity between Arab and Jew. I don't believe in internationalisation of Jerusalem either, that would cause more problems than its worse. It would give a pretext to extremists on both sides: Christian, Jew and Muslim.
In the end, I believe it will go to Israeli or a Palestinian state.
Quote[/b] (Pindar @ Oct. 19 2003,03:39)]I don't believe there are any with a power position within Israeli politcs that argue against the two state solution. #The sticky point seems to revolve around the fate of Jerusalem and whether state recognition should require the prior cessation of terrorist activity. #Recall there are still a variety of terrorist organizations that claim driving the Jews into the sea as their ultimate goal.
The cessation of terrorist activity is exactly what I mean to be a failure to make it a premise of a Palestinian state. What I meant is that agreeing to a Palestine might be helpfull in the fight against terrorists. One thing is sure, terrorists won`t stop suddenly when there is a Palestinian state. But it takes them an argument for their propaganda. At the same time, there`s no danger that they might actually succeed in driving the jews into the sea.
The fate of Jerusalem is of course a problem. I would propose that it stays part of Israel and Moslems gain a right to visit it. It is after all the most important place in Judaism and only the third place in Islam.
Quote[/b] ]The fate of Jerusalem is of course a problem. I would propose that it stays part of Israel and Moslems gain a right to visit it. It is after all the most important place in Judaism and only the third place in Islam.
Yet it was Arafat's refusal to give up the claim on Jerusalem that lead to the failure of the very initative considered the closest to ushering in a new Palestinian state. Arafat's stand was widely lauded throughout the Arab Middle East: particulary, by Palestinians. I don't think Muslims, in general, are particulary concerned with the Jewish ranking of Jerusalem on the holy scale: especially since they are considered to have corrupted the original covenant.
personally i think israel and palestine and jordan should meet and discuss a reasonable solution to the problem such as palestine controlling land to the north of jerusalem and israel holding the land to the south of jerusalem and jerusalem should either be in control of the UN council or the Swiss both are neutral at all topics.
edit: also the jews have no claimant to the land it has been in islamic hands (pre194?) for over a thousand years if that doesn't satisfy squatters law nothing will.
I just read in a Norwegian newspaper that UN’s special envoy to the Middle East, Terje Rød Larsen is quitting his job. He was hand plucked and appointed by Kofi Annan 4 years ago and have worked hard in the region negotiating between the two camps that lack the will to compromise. Lately that is.
We all know about the incident of Yasser Arafat and Shimon Peres sharing the Nobel’s peace price in 1994 nearly 10 years ago… how soon they forget… I guess the final rhetoric from the people around Sharon, about not taking the words of this top diplomat serious on the grounds of his nation’s fostering of Quisling, has left him unable to continue serious diplomacy… he is taking a new job (headhunted) as head of The International Peace Academy in New York.
Quote[/b] ]We all know about the incident of Yasser Arafat and Shimon Peres sharing the Nobel’s peace price in 1994 nearly 10 years ago…
Giving Arafat the Peace Prize was one of the most quixotic moments in Nobel history. The blood on his hands and the wilful ignoring, by the international community, of the continued vitriol he spews in his Arabic speeches about terrorist martyrdom is truly deplorable. Arafat is an evil man.
a most debateful topic, thus i quote an ancient Chinese proverb: Time heals all wounds.
One may say this is the case, but the scientific community sees otherwise, that time is not on our side. Things could in the future, the NEAR future, escalate to WWIII... i quote another proverb: only time will tell.
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