Best use of Hashinin?

[Amir of Ness]

Hi, I'm new to this group and have enjoyed the quality of information given so far.

Can anyone please advise on the best use of the Hashinin units? I find that sometimes they are amazing in battle and in other occassions get torn up quickly. Would appreciate observations from generals that use this unit in battle.

Cheers

Mike http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[DeadRunner]

Amir of Ness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif welcome to the forum
dont hurry someone will ansker that

[Anti-christ]

my experience with hashishin is that they are wonderful backstabbers:)

no, seriously, they depend much on their valour if oyu ask me, a valour two hashishin is like five times better than a valour 0 or 1. but when thay pass some kind of magic limit they become wonderful, i mostly use them as a flanking or rearing group, you hide them in the field somewhere (since they can hide anywhere) and then they either attack the general or rear the main force.

its lovely to see the guys in the back who think they are in relative safety just open their eyes in surprise when they feel the sharp tinge of an arrow in the back of the neck... or just use them as an elite-group on the battlefield. did that answer your question?

[Cebei]

You know that they can conceal themselves in the open right? OK, hashisins (which is originated from the word hash-hash; a drug similar to present day illegal drugs. these guys took hashash before the assasination or battle that made them fearless and high. Thus their name means hashhash takers. The word developed into what is today assasin = hashishin)

They are best used for killing the general to demoralize the enemy. You have to deploy them somewhere that you think the enemy general will pass through, you do not move them unitl strike because they lose their cover while moving. Attack head onto the general to kill him. Or flank his coulmn.

[A.Saturnus]

Welcome Amir of Ness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
You already got some suggestions on their use. More of this and some nice stories about them as well, you should find without a problem in the archives.
Personally, I prefer to use them against light armoured units. When you mow down peasants with them, they get valour and rarely loose anything. Against tougher foes, you make better use of ambush. I have once exterminated a unit of Royal Knights (late) within seconds in a forest ambush. A nice possiblity is also to use them as traps. Place them right in front of your spear wall. When the enemy centre approaches, release the hashishin and you can create a lot confusion among the enemy, exploit it with your main forces.

[The_Emperor]

Ahh yes those lovely battlefield assassins... don't ya just love them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

A lot of good sugguestions on here.
I say use their element of surprise to the fullest, its not often you get to ambush on the field, and Hashishin with their ability to hide anywhere can have a major effect on Morale... I mean a flanking charge from cover into a unit produces a -8 morale drop, and that has all the makings of an instant rout

Just make sure you turn them off fire at will, or else all your efforts at concealment will be in vain.

Enjoy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

The best use for Hashishin...Quite clearly, for Hashining your shoes...Ok, you can hit me now... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Gregoshi]

Oh my.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Even I know that joke was horrible BKS - I love it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Welcome to the Entrance Hall oh Mighty Amir of Ness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

One word of advice on Hashinin: never set up a custom battle with no timer and nothing but Hashinin on both sides... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Amir of Ness]

Well... thank you for the welcome, what a nice bunch you lot are

Thanks to all for thier advice and comments (and even very crap joke).

I'll practice planting my unit and popping up to take out the general (nice tip on taking off the fire at will).

Appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Amir of Ness]

Have spent the few spare hours over the last few days trying the suprise attack out on enemy generals. I've found that firing arrows appears to be a better option than getting into hand to hand, even with units with very strong attacks.

There appears to be a problem in the strength of the general. I've had good units (attacing front and back) tied up for most of a battle just engaged with a single general. I understand fully how a very skilled fighter could hold off a small group for a short time, but over a 100 from all sides for over 30 minutes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Due to this unrealistic bias, I'm opting for missile attacks on the enemy general. Unfortunately it looks like a big cannon on a hill would be more effective than a Hashinin unit. This bothers me as it takes away a lot from the game as I really like the idea of Hashinin.

The other side of this though, is if I put a general in really good armour and a horse, then he might last whole battle almost immune to missiles and hand to hand.

Maybe I'll find the time to put in a mod for this superhero fighting skill that the general has.

Thanks again for your advice

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]There appears to be a problem in the strength of the general. I've had good units (attacing front and back) tied up for most of a battle just engaged with a single general. I understand fully how a very skilled fighter could hold off a small group for a short time, but over a 100 from all sides for over 30 minutes

Wait, I dont understand. Did the general hold off hashisins or normal spear class units? If the latter, it is normal. I spent an entire battle engaging one kataphraktos (king) with 2*100 saracens from front and rear. But in the case of hashisins, there must be something wrong. hashisins eat enemy generals.


Quote[/b] ]Due to this unrealistic bias, I'm opting for missile attacks on the enemy general. Unfortunately it looks like a big cannon on a hill would be more effective than a Hashinin unit. This bothers me as it takes away a lot from the game as I really like the idea of Hashinin.


You are attacking from flanks right? not head on.


Quote[/b] ]The other side of this though, is if I put a general in really good armour and a horse, then he might last whole battle almost immune to missiles and hand to hand.


Send a good armor Janissary Heavy Infantry with good weapon. Nobody is immune to anything. As for missiles arbalests pierce armor, so they are also general killers.

But I dont know hashisins are very handy warriorss.

[Amir of Ness]

Thanks for the comments and the welcomes I had since being a new member of the group

Will need to test Cebei's suggestion that a general can hold off a unit of Hashinin single handedly.

If anyone has already done this I'd appreciate knowing what your finding's were.

Given the cost and time to develop this unit, I'm wondering if two big catapults on a hill would effectively do the same job. It could be argued that this is less in keeping with the spirit of the game and a cheaty short-cut, but if it gets the job done...

A further issue is the use of Hashinin when attacking. The ambush potential is reduced due to the need to go over to the enemy rather than have them walk over to the Hashinin trap. Are they cost effective offensively?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Fragony]

You can turn hashisins into absolute jugernauts. Throw them into a peasant unit and they will gain valour very fast because there are only 12 of them. I never been really succesfull with their stealth ability, but as swordsman the kick serious bottom. Anyone ever did a test with them vs berzerkers? I have no idea how to mod them into a specific era.

[DeadRunner]

think them as a field ninja
shealt = to ambush to major units our suport units like archers our sneak atacks

[HopAlongBunny]

You will find some odd results against high valour generals (or any high valour unit) I've had a general slaughter over 450 of my men; not crap units either. Count the little flags

Hashishin valour up quickly because of small unit size. Spend some time to train them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Use them against regular units at first; some of the ambush ideas are good for this. Recombine, retrain as needed; a 1 str point Hasher takes only 1 year to rebuild in que.

[King John II]

Most units have health of 1. Generals get health 6 and that is like having a number of hit points - so they take longer to kill. A king can have lots and lots and lots more health (hence hit points) through various virtues and vices.

Meanwhile although you send two 100 man units to fight him just two of those men can actually engage him at a time.

Voila, enter superman.

Received wisdom is to target him with archers. Because all and any of their arrows can hit him, not just two at a time.

Cannon or ballista or other missile attack will work too but the received wisdom on that is they are insufficiently accurate.

[NewJeffCT]

To effectively ambush with hash-men, you have to make sure you take them off engage at will or skirmish, or whatever their default setting is, because as soon as they move, they are no longer hidden. I rarely use hash-men when on offense, but find them very good on defense, as you can hide them away from your main force.