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Loose Cannon
10-21-2003, 02:59
Remember the very simple {rock ==> paper ==> scissors} system which is set up in MTW:

shock (as in men at arms etc.) defeat spear
spear defeat cavalry
cavalry defeat shock

and: foot archers ALWAYS defeat horse archers.

in order to remember this, use logical assumptions.

valour also affects attack and defense: +1 def, +1 att., and +1 charge for every point in valour.

many dont know spearmen have supporting ranks and also pikemen:

spearmen recieve a +1 defence for every supporting rank. i.e., chivalric sergeants already defend with a 5 def., and their supporting ranks (a max of 2 supporting ranks for all spearmen) of which are two, give them a +2 defence, a total defence of 7. when fighting cavalry they recieve large def. bonuses.

pikemen also recieve +1 def for every supporting rank, and they can have up to four supporting ranks. So Swiss armoured pikemen, whose def. is 6, recieve a +4 def. bonus, a total def. bonus of 10. I also might add Swiss armoured pikemen when deployed correctly are the most powerful units on the field. Historically, only when the spanish deployed cannon in the 16th century were they rendered obsolete.
(they were the last melee infantry unit to be deployed during the Gunpowder age, because of the musket.)

those weilding axes on the field recieve att. bonuses against those wearing armour. **woodsmen are peasants excluding their axes and their incredible[I] charge.**

arbalest strings dont get wet; they aren't impaired by rain.
Against weaker cavalry (muslim included) it is more effective to order arbalesters in a hold formation que. One barage of Arbalest bolts is a effective as three composite bow volleys, and they fire more slowly and it takes them much longer to run out of ammo. Arbalesters are well armoured. All of these factors make arbalesters tactically flexible.

Im sorry ive run out of time...

Hetman_Koronny
10-21-2003, 09:27
*bows*

Very informative Loose Cannon, indeed. Been covered before but still worth reading. I actually didn't know about the supportive ranks for spearmen. So, to receive the highest defensive bonus pickmen should fight in 9 rows? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif I find it hard to believe.


Quote[/b] ]and: foot archers ALWAYS defeat horse archers.
Not always. However I agree that foot archers are usually more effective than the mounted ones.


Quote[/b] ]Swiss armoured pikemen when deployed correctly are the most powerful units on the field.
Not quite. It actually depends. But when you say deployed correctly it is hard to argue as it can mean just about everything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]arbalest strings dont get wet; they aren't impaired by rain.
Didn't know that either. But dont they get shoot poorly in a bad weather penalty just like most ranged units?? Nonetheless, I do agree that arbalesters are a very neat unit and I personally value them a lot (specially when it comes to slaughtering the Horde http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif).

*bows*

King John II
10-21-2003, 12:49
A greek phalanx employed spearmen up to 16 ranks deep.

In a shieldwall it is the ability to [I]push[I] which is critical.

If you can push the enemy back there is a chance some will trip and fall and their line will get disrupted generally. This opens small gaps in their shieldwall and makes a few vulnerable to injury from spear and shield.

So you got to fight with the shield of the man behind pushed firmly into your back and each man strained to gain a purchase of the mud beneath so as to push forward.

If neither side broke this could go on for hours at a time.

There are some excellent descriptions in Stephen Pressfield's Gates of Fire - a novel about Thermopylai.

lanky316
10-21-2003, 13:09
I must agree about the value of Swiss pikeman, as a relative noob I absaloutely detest them as especially in Switzerland they are so hard to out manouvre and remove from play. Once you break through and get round them thouygh it is usually a different matter...

Loose Cannon
10-22-2003, 03:31
Quote[/b] (Hetman_Koronny @ Oct. 21 2003,03:27)]So, to receive the highest defensive bonus pickmen should fight in 9 rows? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif I find it hard to believe.
im sorry you have misunderstood. Swiss Armored Pikemen (as all pikemen do.) recieve +1 defensive bonus for every supporting rank. Swiss Armored Pikemen, however, ALREADY have a defense of 6(&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, and since all pikemen can have up to 4 (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif supporing ranks, and recieve a (once again) +1 defensive bonus for every supporting rank (a max of 4 for pikemen; spearmen a max of 2) do the math:

Swiss Armoured Pikemen:

a defense of 6

+1 for every supporting rank (a max of 4)

= a defence of 10

im sorry if i hadnt clarified this more
i will refrain from any obscurity in the future.

Brutal DLX
10-22-2003, 11:30
It's one of the standard mantras: SAPs kill everything.
Luckily, not everybody takes Swiss armies in MP, and in SP you hardly have to worry about them.

Gregoshi
10-23-2003, 03:46
Belated greetings and welcome Loose Cannon. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Er, not to nit-pick (but I will anyway), but shouldn't the information you posted be for the tactically challenged? Well, either way it is still good stuff. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Lehesu
10-23-2003, 03:53
My strategery* is just fine, thank you.
































*George W. Bush