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dessa14
12-01-2003, 14:43
CHOOSE
Do You Think The Moderators are doing a good job
(noone black list me please)
thanks dessa

Sir Moody
12-01-2003, 14:49
somewhat baiting a bear here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ser Clegane
12-01-2003, 15:44
Absolutely brilliant of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

*practises brown-nosing for next week's year-end review at work*

Taillefer
12-01-2003, 16:13
Enters stage left into a room bare of all furniture which feels very draughty. The panelled walls are hung with portraits of some VERY HANDSOME PEOPLE, but what was that that moved - no never the eyes had come alive - gosh they are peepholes.

Bows and leaves very swiftly closing the door quietly.

An extract from:-
ACT1 Scene1 'Little Bo Peep' (Pantomine showing at the Alhambra Music Hall Huddersfield. Tickets from......)

Taillefer.

dessa14
12-01-2003, 16:18
go the pantomine horse
thanks dessa

Taillefer
12-01-2003, 16:26
She's a two man job - you get to play the legs -
dangerous when I'm on the local gassy brew.

...now if you bring a keg or two of Fosters I might talk....
...instead .Ho Ho.

Cheers.
Taillefer.

dessa14
12-01-2003, 16:54
oh great a bunch of suck ups
thanks dessa

FoundationII
12-01-2003, 17:18
I might transferred a different answer, but I think they're doing very well. They track almost everyone to see if they should promote him/her, that has to take a lot of time.
We should respect them.

The_Emperor
12-01-2003, 19:14
So what's your opinion of the MODs Dessa?

Are you a Heretic? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

A.Saturnus
12-01-2003, 19:48
Watchtower topic

Kas
12-01-2003, 23:49
The moderators do very well on the Org.

Kas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

spmetla
12-01-2003, 23:55
Of course they're doing a good job. What could someone possible complain about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Papewaio
12-02-2003, 01:32
Well it was better in the old days.

Now that we have professional minded mods who actually mod and mod (moderate and modify the game) and they read all the boards (unlike the old semi-literate ex-mods). Back in the day when an annoying patron could be made into Gah or let loose to cry havoc on the boards

Now we have mods who are showered with money, fame, fortune, babes. Ok one mod who scores 2 out of four of those.

----

Mods are what keep these boards cool.

solypsist
12-02-2003, 05:35
All our good mods keep getting married off....

Demon of Light
12-02-2003, 09:13
I feel I am doing a horrible and pitiful job.

The_Emperor
12-02-2003, 15:13
Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ Dec. 02 2003,08:13)]I feel I am doing a horrible and pitiful job.
Your doing a great job DOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

The Throne Room does not get quite as hectic as some of the other forums around here, but still you do alright keeping the PBMs on track.

(Just a thought, maybe we should expand the role of the Throne Room to include more than just PBMs)

Nowake
12-02-2003, 17:27
I think they are performing kinda good. No briliant moves from their part, but all works smooth and everyone is content with this aspect. GL in future ...

Gah

HawaiianHobbit
12-03-2003, 00:10
their brillant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Papewaio
12-03-2003, 00:21
Quote[/b] (solypsist @ Dec. 02 2003,13:35)]All our good mods keep getting married off....
So when is the big day then?

Obex
12-03-2003, 09:35
The responses to this poll would have been more interesting if it had been conducted a few months ago. And yeah, units do tire to quickly.

dessa14
12-03-2003, 14:26
i was just seeing whether everyone was in agreement with me on the moderator topic and it seems so and don't bring up the bitching that happened in the jousting field and that.
thanks dessa

A.Saturnus
12-18-2003, 23:22
Ok, who were that 4 people?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Papewaio
12-19-2003, 02:15
The Admins and your mum

Demon of Light
12-19-2003, 09:34
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Dec. 18 2003,14:22)]Ok, who were that 4 people?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I've always wondered if I could alter quotes...(DoL)
I'm volunteer myself as having voted this way. Do I need to go to Belgium to "discuss" it with you?


P.S: I'm kidding. At least about going to Belgium. I'd prefer you come to the U.S.

P.S.S: I'm kidding about the discussion. I would never do anything that violates the forum rules regarding threats of violence. (Looks at Tosa and smiles innocently)

P.S.S.S: I'm kidding with regards to my vote on the poll. Mind you, I'm not kidding about the vote I made but I am kidding when I say we're doing a horrible and pitiful job.

P.S.S.S.S: I'm kidding about all things I said I was kidding about (except in those cases [all cases] when I wasn't serious. In those cases, I was kidding)

Brutal DLX
12-19-2003, 11:44
Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ Dec. 19 2003,08:34)]
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Dec. 18 2003,14:22)]Ok, who were that 4 people?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I've always wondered if I could alter quotes...(DoL)
I'm volunteer myself as having voted this way. Do I need to go to Belgium to "discuss" it with you?


P.S: I'm kidding. At least about going to Belgium. I'd prefer you come to the U.S.

P.S.S: I'm kidding about the discussion. I would never do anything that violates the forum rules regarding threats of violence. (Looks at Tosa and smiles innocently)

P.S.S.S: I'm kidding with regards to my vote on the poll. Mind you, I'm not kidding about the vote I made but I am kidding when I say we're doing a horrible and pitiful job.

P.S.S.S.S: I'm kidding about all things I said I was kidding about (except in those cases [all cases] when I wasn't serious. In those cases, I was kidding)
You could have just said Gah and meant the same. Now, this particular mod needs to work on his effectiveness. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hosakawa Tito
12-19-2003, 18:38
Teh ban. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

A.Saturnus
12-19-2003, 19:07
Quote[/b] (Hosakawa Tito @ Dec. 19 2003,18:38)]Teh ban. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Oh come on, DoL was just kidding. More or less. Somehow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

The_Emperor
12-19-2003, 19:45
By the way I love the new Christmas look of this place...


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/santa.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Demon of Light
12-21-2003, 03:25
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Dec. 19 2003,10:07)]
Quote[/b] (Hosakawa Tito @ Dec. 19 2003,18:38)]Teh ban. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Oh come on, DoL was just kidding. More or less. Somehow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Glad to see you could take the joke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif One thing I've wondered for a little while: If you're in Belgium exile, where are you from originally?

A.Saturnus
12-22-2003, 14:13
I was exiled from my personal heart of darkness. Just kidding, I´m an education fugitive from Germany.

Lord Rom
01-09-2004, 03:16
The forum moderators are excellent. This is a fun place to visit I like the way we can learn, discuss, and have a good time here while avoiding flames, repugnant photos, and disgusting behavior. Fun with class and some dignity goes a long way. Thanks to all the moderators You are appreciated more than you know m8's.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Shaitan
01-14-2004, 07:30
Of course they are doing a good job here

shaitan

Ja'chyra
01-14-2004, 10:19
Hmmmmm, is that the tail of a Tiger? Wonder what happens if I give it a little tug http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I think the mods do a good job, vigilant without being oppresive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Dhepee
01-14-2004, 15:27
Unlike some forums the mods here actually contribute to the threads and not just to close them down. There are some forums where the only time that mods appear is to either close a thread or warn a member. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

A.Saturnus
01-14-2004, 21:24
Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Jan. 14 2004,15:27)]Unlike some forums the mods here actually contribute to the threads and not just to close them down. There are some forums where the only time that mods appear is to either close a thread or warn a member. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif
Well, I think that´s understandable. Mods have to restrict themselves.

makkyo
01-19-2004, 17:18
We love our moderators, for they are wise in all ways of man and beast. *brown-nosing*

Rob The Bastard
01-21-2004, 21:18
http://www.wise.net.nz/users/robm/brownnose.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

|OCS|Virus
01-22-2004, 04:44
They keep most of the trash and flaming out, I havnt seen em' make any royal blunders i'd give em' a thumbs up were did our thumbs up icon go? maybe I am thinking of a different forum... well this will have to do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

A.Saturnus
01-22-2004, 18:22
You mean this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif ?

Dhepee
01-22-2004, 19:53
Wouldn't it be ironic if a mod just closed this thread for no reason and red carded a couple of the posters. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-behead2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Teutonic Knight
01-22-2004, 20:11
Mods are brilliant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

A.Saturnus
01-22-2004, 23:41
Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Jan. 22 2004,19:53)]Wouldn't it be ironic if a mod just closed this thread for no reason and red carded a couple of the posters. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-behead2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
hmm, nice idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It´s not my forum, though...

Nowake
01-24-2004, 15:12
Hmm, let me guess .. the guilotined man sais Gah? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Kas
01-25-2004, 12:53
No no...you must lay your head there before you vote, that's why we all really appreciate the moderators on the Org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

TheSilverKnight
01-31-2004, 15:21
I voted for GAH But I do think the mods are doing a great job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cazbol
03-22-2004, 13:25
Me love them. Me love them. Me love them looong time.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

Voigtkampf
03-25-2004, 07:52
Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Mar. 22 2004,06:25)]Me love them. Me love them. Me love them looong time.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
Tooo beacoup, tooo beacoup

VikingHorde
04-03-2004, 19:40
They are doing a great job, keep up the good work
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

nightcrawlerblue
04-03-2004, 22:53
I haven't seen any large amounts of spam or anything on this board. Seems they're doing a fine job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Tricky Lady
04-10-2004, 09:52
Quote[/b] (nightcrawlerblue @ April 03 2004,22:53)]I haven't seen any large amounts of spam or anything on this board. Seems they're doing a fine job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Well check this:

Shrine of Gregoshi (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=16969)

Seems like some good ol' spammin' to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Gregoshi
04-10-2004, 15:19
It's embarrassing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

Axeknight
04-15-2004, 20:03
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ April 10 2004,16:19)]It's embarrassing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif
Kinda funny though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Yes, they're doing a good job. No flaming, not much spam etc here. Keep up the good work and maybe one day you can all have religions Can you imagine, there'd be jihads, crusades...~:thumb:

Tribesman
04-28-2004, 04:54
Good job by Saturnus in the Tavern today . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Dhepee
04-28-2004, 16:12
Yes A.Saturnus deserves all the acolades available for getting rid of those damned "protest clubs" or whatnot. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif He keeps the Tavern livable, for those of us who like to live in Taverns. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Gawain of Orkeny
04-29-2004, 19:38
Yes thanks Sat for cleaning up that mess. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

JAG
05-01-2004, 04:05
Yes thanks Sat for cleaning up that mess. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Gawain of Orkeny
05-01-2004, 18:07
Quote[/b] ]Yes thanks Sat for cleaning up that mess.

He He your the one who made it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

JAG
05-02-2004, 02:13
Funny, I thought you were proud of the fact that you started the first club, nm.

John86
05-02-2004, 02:25
Quote[/b] (JAG @ May 01 2004,20:13)]Funny, I thought you were proud of the fact that you started the first club, nm.
Yes Jag, Saturn cleaned up the mess. Mostley, your very random rooms (The drinker room....).

Gregoshi
05-02-2004, 05:32
Does an argument have to break out in every topic these days? Or snide remarks posted?

It seems one can't even say "thank you" (like this topic) or say something nice to another (Things I like about the USA for example) without the someone throwing in a cheap shot - all in "good fun" of course. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif There is a proper time and a place for everthing, yet when it comes to getting a dig in on an adversary, the rule has become "every time and every place". It makes our job that much harder when confrontations start creeping into even the most innocent of topics. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsdown.gif

Gawain of Orkeny
05-02-2004, 06:49
I find it kind of funny and very ironic that a moderator has to step in on a thread called are the moderators doing a good job.

Voigtkampf
05-02-2004, 08:06
No, there is nothing funny in it. In fact, it's rather saddening. I agree with Gregoshi wholeheartedly, there should be enough of civilized behavior to at least avoid some of the pointless and extremely annoying side stabbing in every possible topic.

The lengths to which A.Saturnus has been forced to go is the best and most obvious proof that the things have been radically pacing up as they were going down the hill.

There should be measure in things.

dessa14
05-02-2004, 12:31
i like living in taverns, just not in the .orgs tavern. every topic is POLITICS, POLITICS, POLITICS.
and any topic not about politics is pushed down by politics.

thanks, dessa

Apocalyp$e
05-02-2004, 13:45
I think that they are doing a great job, this is the most friendly message board I have been to ever... And it is all about war between our root nations(unless you are asian, or native american) you think there would be more flaming...

Gawain of Orkeny
05-02-2004, 15:21
Quote[/b] ]No, there is nothing funny in it. In fact, it's rather saddening

I meant funny as in strange or ludicrous not hilarious.

Gregoshi
05-02-2004, 19:12
Thanks for clearing that up Gawain. BTW, I would have made my post even if I was not on the Org staff...except I would have changed the "our" to a "their" in the last sentence. The point of the post is legitimate whether I am a moderator or not.

Voigtkampf
05-02-2004, 20:35
Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 02 2004,00:49)]...funny and very ironic...
I find that there is no necessity of elaborating this statement whatsoever, yet the intention may not be entirely in accordance with the expression itself. However, "in dubio pro reo", as they so finely put it, and I always, when in doubt, like to believe that there is no malevolent thought behind it rather than otherwise.

Gawain of Orkeny
05-02-2004, 20:56
There is nothing FUNNY as in the way of hilarious at all about a moderator having to step in and moderate a thread on are the moderators doing a good job. If you think I found humor in it you are sadly mistaken.

Kaiser of Arabia
05-12-2004, 00:02
not really, and they know why.

ShadesWolf
05-12-2004, 11:29
YES they are brilliant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

dessa14
05-12-2004, 12:04
i see 8% are anti moderator.
hmm do i see a minority coup coming.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
thanks, dessa

Kaiser of Arabia
05-12-2004, 13:51
That would be fun

Teutonic Knight
05-12-2004, 20:17
fun.... but deadly

solypsist
05-15-2004, 21:36
i think we're doing a pretty good job

of course, it would be immodest to comment on my own performance
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Gawain of Orkeny
05-16-2004, 00:22
I hate to disagree but I have come to the opinion that the mods are prejudice towards certain parties countries and religions. How can Pape make a post like he did and have the mods say he has a good reputation and let it go yet punish me for something I said and forgot to put a smiley face after it.
Pape called the whole US armed forces lapdogs and many other derogatory things about the US. I on the other hand called 1 member a lapdog and on top of that I apologized for it. It was meant in good fun and also to make a point but I hardly think it was worth any action by a moderator. I have been called much worse many times and nothing was ever done about, It seems only those on the right that stick up for their principles are ever punished and some on the left are protected by the moderates. Now this is only my opinion but I'm getting a little tired of it. This reminds me of football where one man commits a foul but they always catch the guy retailiating. I can name two instances where because the mods failed to do their job properly people on the right took matters into their own hands and responded to posts as in a like manner to the original post and were punished for it.

hrvojej
05-16-2004, 01:12
There is a difference between ad hominem attacks and attacks on the ideas for the sake of the (heated) discussion, and there is a further difference whether the issue at hand is about a patron of this forum or not. Surely the mods are not perfect machines, they are just human beings. They are also patrons like everyone else, and entitled to their opinion, which they will have no matter how hard they try to be even-handed. They are therefore not devoid of making mistakes, and oversights happen with respect to both sides, and also there are things that can influence their judgement. For example, one of the things that can influence the judgement is how prone is someone to cause trouble. Exactly like the football analogy - refrees tend to jump the gun more on the known troublemakers. So, in other words, if it hurts when you get spanked, don't let yourself get into that kind of situation in the first place - not only that one time when you do get spanked, but with general attitude and behavior. And the bottom line is that some things are done at the discretion of the staff, and patrons should accept it as such.

Teutonic Knight
05-16-2004, 01:17
Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 15 2004,19:22)]I hate to disagree but I have come to the opinion that the mods are prejudice towards certain parties countries and religions. How can Pape make a post like he did and have the mods say he has a good reputation and let it go yet punish me for something I said and forgot to put a smiley face after it.
Pape called the whole US armed forces lapdogs and many other derogatory things about the US. I on the other hand called 1 member a lapdog and on top of that I apologized for it. It was meant in good fun and also to make a point but I hardly think it was worth any action by a moderator. I have been called much worse many times and nothing was ever done about, It seems only those on the right that stick up for their principles are ever punished and some on the left are protected by the moderates. Now this is only my opinion but I'm getting a little tired of it. This reminds me of football where one man commits a foul but they always catch the guy retailiating. I can name two instances where because the mods failed to do their job properly people on the right took matters into their own hands and responded to posts as in a like manner to the original post and were punished for it.
a few weeks ago I would've disagreed with you, but in the past weeks I have definitly noticed something that I've had a hunch about for a long time...

ICantSpellDawg
05-16-2004, 02:11
things were more "moderate" with hosokawa tito

i had no idea where he leaned, but our current mod (one in particular) has obvious "Not Right" leanings - so much as to make posts himself to show his bias

i think mods shouldnt make posts - maybe they could have alternate names to post with when they want to say someting in the tavern

otherwise the obvious bias will be offensive if a "right winger" is ever scolded - even if the scolding is in fairness

just food for thought

ive said some stupid things in the past - i have deserved every scoldign ive gotten


ps - you never knwo if the others have gotten a warning - maybe they did and just didnt bring attention to it

there really isnt a way to tell - the yellow boxes dont show up liek they used to

ALSO - i thin the moderators are doing a great job - i like this forum alot

Voigtkampf
05-16-2004, 10:20
Quote[/b] (TuffStuffMcGruff @ May 15 2004,20:11)]things were more "moderate" with hosokawa tito
The Tavern is being moderated by five mods, A.Saturnus, Dhepee, Hosakawa Tito, Jaguara and my humble person, of which I and Dhepee are the new assistant moderators. Ergo, there was no change in staff, Tito stepping back and others taking over.


Quote[/b] ]i think mods shouldnt make posts - maybe they could have alternate names to post with when they want to say someting in the tavern

I certainly try not to, especially in the tavern, but we all live and love these boards and we don't get paid for doing this. Not to post would rob us of great a deal of pleasure the Org gives to us. And alternate names? Bad idea.


Quote[/b] ]ps - you never knwo if the others have gotten a warning - maybe they did and just didnt bring attention to it

there really isnt a way to tell - the yellow boxes dont show up liek they used to

That is the point. If the members see the card, the said person is "stigmatized" automatically. Some might even try to bait him into an open discussion and annoy him so that he would get angry and make even more conflicts, resulting in the staff restricting his rights further. The cards are only visible to the staff, and are visible to everyone when there are three of them - by then everyone knows that the said member is in deep troubles anyway.

Personally, I would like anyone that has grievances with moderators PM me and bring the subject they have problems with to my attention. There should be no taking sides and I personally don't care a jot if the offender represents my opinion or a total opposite, if he uses foul language, call names and otherwise behave inappropriately, he'll be punished no matter the left/right/liberal/conservative. We (the staff) always consult each other on these boards and I firmly believe that all the mods are fair and impartial, and hence reluctant to believe anyone of them would take sides in an argument and abuse his moderating rights.

ICantSpellDawg
05-16-2004, 17:14
fair enough

Papewaio
05-17-2004, 09:46
Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 16 2004,09:22)]I hate to disagree but I have come to the opinion that the mods are prejudice towards certain parties countries and religions. How can Pape make a post like he did and have the mods say he has a good reputation and let it go yet punish me for something I said and forgot to put a smiley face after it.
Pape called the whole US armed forces lapdogs and many other derogatory things about the US. I on the other hand called 1 member a lapdog and on top of that I apologized for it. It was meant in good fun and also to make a point but I hardly think it was worth any action by a moderator. I have been called much worse many times and nothing was ever done about, It seems only those on the right that stick up for their principles are ever punished and some on the left are protected by the moderates. Now this is only my opinion but I'm getting a little tired of it. This reminds me of football where one man commits a foul but they always catch the guy retailiating. I can name two instances where because the mods failed to do their job properly people on the right took matters into their own hands and responded to posts as in a like manner to the original post and were punished for it.
The difference is I titled it a Rant and acted an insitution not an individual. If I take a pick to the side of a building it is vandalism, if I did the same to an individual it would be assault.

Rant:To utter or express with violence or extravagance.

Now to get back on track I apologise for the violence and extravagance of my claims. They where to highlight a potentially very bad situation where the US gives up all its values to fight a tiny amount of people.

Gawain of Orkeny
05-17-2004, 16:33
Quote[/b] ]The difference is I titled it a Rant and acted an insitution not an individual. If I take a pick to the side of a building it is vandalism, if I did the same to an individual it would be assault

So by directing it at all of America that makes it ok. I took it personal you cannot hide behind the fact that it was not directed towards any one person. You directed it towards American people not some intimate object. By the way Redleg also labeled his a rant. Does that mean I can label something a rant and go around calling Muslims names?

On top of this Redleg gets a warning and we are all told what a fine fellow you are. Ludicrous IMO.

ElmarkOFear
05-24-2004, 04:33
Gawain, this is par for the course here at the .org. There are certain individuals, who are given much more lee way when it comes to their posting.

You will find when you criticize or make fun of these certain patrons, you will recieve a nice PM from one of the moderators. This is one of several reasons you do not see a vast majority of older veterans of MTW/VI frequenting this forum.

If you and Redleg would care to email me, or post in the ugli.org forum, I can explain further. The invitation is open to all who might be curious, but please state your .org username in the email. My email is: el-marko@insightbb.com To explain further here, would probably result in a PM, describing how I am on the borderline of being banned, (like I have been threatened with in the past from certain unnamed individuals).

Colovion
05-24-2004, 11:42
As long as the comments don't become overly personal - in an intelligent discussion there should be all open ideas and sharing of them, even if someone has an opinion that is controversial to some people on the forum. IF it insults you then take it up with the person and discuss it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

scooter_the_shooter
05-31-2004, 03:03
well i only saw to moderators i liked here and they are gregorishi and frogbeastegg they seem more fair then the others but i have not spoken to all the mods yet so i really cant comment but it seems a few of em are just siding with who they want http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif but as i said i really cant comment but i did



PS i thought i couldnt post here yet is somthing wrong

son of spam
05-31-2004, 03:48
The tavern is a lot better now that there is the Frontroom.

Still, I bet a lot of people still hang around the tavern (like me) because it's just so darn fun to argue with others about politics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

squippy
06-01-2004, 13:07
Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 17 2004,10:33)]
Quote[/b] ]
So by directing it at all of America that makes it ok. I took it personal you cannot hide behind the fact that it was not directed towards any one person.

Quote[/b] ]
So by directing it at all of America that makes it ok. I took it personal you cannot hide behind the fact that it was not directed towards any one person.

Well, yes. If you choose to take an issue personally merely becuase you hold the passport of a particualr state, then that is YOUR CHOICE. Don't go blame other people for that.

And what does this imply? If it is the case that some members take criticism of the US "personally", does that mean that the entire forum has to ban anything critical of the US? Is that the desired outcome, a totally censored environment in which hoinesty dare not raise its head and legitimate opinions cannot be aired?

Anyway, this is hopelessly inconsistent - where was your outrage, Gawain, when the board was full of "freedom fries" and offensive remarks about France? If its legitimate to slander France baselessly, why is it illegimate to level genuine and grounded criticisms at the US?

If you - or Redleg - wish to make "martyrs" of yourselves in this way, you have only yourselves to blame.

Gawain of Orkeny
06-02-2004, 17:10
Quote[/b] ]Anyway, this is hopelessly inconsistent - where was your outrage, Gawain, when the board was full of "freedom fries" and offensive remarks about France?

You cannot compare the few jokes about freedom fries and some criticism of France to the post I was referring to or for that matter the constant US bashing that has been demonstrated in these forums. This has changed IMO recently and people seem to be a little more thoughtful in their posting. By the way squippy although I disagree with almost everything you say I support your right to say it other than the Nazi stuff, to me using that to describe someone is just like using the N word and is not acceptable whether you think it applies to the person or not. Admit it you do have a very aggressive and irritating posting style and do so intentionally. I actually miss you and Redleg battling it out.

squippy
06-03-2004, 15:30
Quote[/b] ] You cannot compare the few jokes about freedom fries and some criticism of France to the post I was referring to or for that matter the constant US bashing that has been demonstrated in these forums.

France has not invaded anyone recently. do you think that might have anything to do with it?

you are correct that they cannot be directly compared. There is a legitimate criticism that can be levelled at American Imperialim; all the francophobia is simply spite and bile to discredit opponents.

However it should also be pointed out that we are not by any means talking about "just a few" jokes about the French; we are talking about a complete free-for-all that went on for months and in some sense is still happening today (its moderated only by the fact that the situation has become a debacle). By all means, refresh your memory by scouting some pages from the outbreak of the war.


Quote[/b] ] By the way squippy although I disagree with almost everything you say I support your right to say it other than the Nazi stuff, to me using that to describe someone is just like using the N word and is not acceptable whether you think it applies to the person or not.

I must say I find that completely bizarre. Nazi doesnnot have a history of being an abusive term; it is merely our "ritual enemy" in Western culture. There is no comparison with terms that have been used for the purpose of racist abuse at all.

Teutonic Knight
06-03-2004, 18:29
Well if Gawain considers "nazi" offensive, then can he in turn, call you "pinko nigger"? Is that offensive? What's the difference?

A.Saturnus
06-03-2004, 19:17
Quote[/b] ]
Anyway, this is hopelessly inconsistent - where was your outrage, Gawain, when the board was full of "freedom fries" and offensive remarks about France?

In the Entrance Hall, if any. Gawain did not have a chance to defend the French because he wasn´t present at that time. It´s therefore not fair to hold it against him.

scooter_the_shooter
06-03-2004, 21:06
i am offended by the amirica stiff not all of it but when some idiot just goes"america is dumb and i hate them" that is what makes me mad they have no evidence no backup so i consider it a flame but the mods stand by and do nothing when they are flaming not one person but millions there is somthing wrong with that

Dhepee
06-03-2004, 21:54
Quote[/b] (ceasar010 @ June 03 2004,16:06)]i am offended by the amirica stiff not all of it but when some idiot just goes"america is dumb and i hate them" that is what makes me mad they have no evidence no backup so i consider it a flame but the mods stand by and do nothing when they are flaming not one person but millions there is somthing wrong with that
The difference is that when you make a comment about "America" you are commenting on the entity that is America but not the people who are themselves Americans. America, or any entity, represents whatever that entity stands for but it does not itself represent the people that make it up. For that reason any attack on the entity, as long as you don't bring the people into it, is permissible. America is a nation but Americans are people, that is the difference, a subtle one but an important one.

If we were to disallow an attack on "America" then we would have to disallow attacks on any entity if we were to be consistent. It would severely limit your ability to criticize the actions of any entity such as a religious entity, corporate entity, national entity, etc, and this would make for very boring threads.

What is not allowed is any attack on a person or person(s) so for that reason a statement flaming the American people would not be allowed, just as a statement flaming any other national, racial, ethnic, or religious group is not allowed.

We cannot afford "America" any special protection that we do not afford to all other countries or entities and to afford that protection would fetter much of what we say in the Tavern.

The rule of thumb is this: You can say "Mars is an awful place" but you cannot say "Martians are awful." In the first example you attack Mars without attacking the Martians but in the second, the not allowed, example you attack the Martians. If there is one thing that I will not tolerate it is flaming martians.

scooter_the_shooter
06-03-2004, 22:33
when they have evidence and resons to support their reasoning i am find but when they just start sying stupid things about the place is what gets me

squippy
06-04-2004, 09:17
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 03 2004,12:29)]Well if Gawain considers "nazi" offensive, then can he in turn, call you "pinko nigger"? Is that offensive? What's the difference?
No, becuase as I pointed out, nigger has several hundreds of years behind it as a term used primarily for abuse. If he resorts to such language, he is demonstrating an attempt purely to offend.

If I make a comparison between a persons politics and the politics of a specific real world institution, then that is clearly a comparison and a claim, not an attempt to offend.

The faux-martyrdom routine doesn't change this one bit. Please note that redleg could not only not dispute, but in fact reinforced, my claim by restating his position on Fonda.

Redleg
06-04-2004, 13:09
Quote[/b] (squippy @ June 04 2004,03:17)]The faux-martyrdom routine doesn't change this one bit. Please note that redleg could not only not dispute, but in fact reinforced, my claim by restating his position on Fonda.
Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and manned an anti-aircraft gun and pretended to shoot at American Aircraft that were engaged in warfare against that country. As a citizen of the United States she committed an open act of treason.

Then she went to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison and caused several POWs to be questioned and then tortured by the North Vietnamese. Then she reported when the evidence of maltreatment was plain to see that the North Vietnamese were treating the POWs humane.

Jane Fonda is a traitous witch for these reasons. Which I will ackownledge that the term witch is wrong of me, but since like so many in the past have told me, when a person is a public figure and their actions are known to all, some labels are acceptable. I actually have even more crude forms of labels for what I think of Jane Fonda and her traitorous actions against her country during her visit to an enemy nation who was activitily engaged in warfare against her nation.

Just like you want to equate the term Nazi to historical fact - well guess what Squippy - Jane Fonda is a traitor because of her Physical actions, which are indeed fact with propaganda pictures from North Vietnam to show the truth of her actions. That the United States did not prosecute her for her actions shows how much disconent was in the United States at the time but it does not negate her crime. Its just that the government decided not to punish her for her actions. That does not negate the fact that she conducted traitorous acts against her country.

And who is making a martyr of themselves. I brought an issue to the watchtower because I felt it was necessary. After I calmed down a little - I realized that part of the problem was myself. I have attempted to change some of my posting methods to maintain a tone of civility to the consevation. Martyr's don't correct themselves they keep on going on an issue until it burns them up. So who indeed is the Faux-martyr on this?

Who continues to show one of the major reasons why the Tavern and now even these threads in the Watchtower have broken down to name calling, finger pointing, and denial of their own culliblity to the problem? Who continues to violate the rules of the forum? Who continues to not review their actions to see where the fault lies within their posting style and the language that they use?

You brought me into this conversation by naming me, which I don't mind. I can at least try to review my actions and omit when I might be mistaken, incorrect, or even flat out wrong? Can you say the same for yourself in regards to your actions in the forum?



Quote[/b] ]I must say I find that completely bizarre. Nazi doesnnot have a history of being an abusive term; it is merely our "ritual enemy" in Western culture. There is no comparison with terms that have been used for the purpose of racist abuse at all.

Yes indeed the term Nazi has been used as insults against police officer doing their job of protecting citizens. It has been used to make an emotional response because of the actions of an individual be it in the work place, home, or just in the community. The term has indeed become an insult regardless of the historical accuracy of the description of the term as it relates to a politicial movement in the 1930's. THe aftermath of WW2 and the use of the term over the last 50 years has made it an offensive insult. A point that has been brought up over and over again - but one that you as an individual continue to use even after the moderators have informed us all that it is an offensive word.




Quote[/b] ]Well, yes. If you choose to take an issue personally merely becuase you hold the passport of a particualr state, then that is YOUR CHOICE. Don't go blame other people for that.


When you place someone's name in the same phrase - then you are indeed placing a label on the individual or the group. If you used the term America and the American government - I just might agree with you, however as it has been pointed out over and over again by the moderators when you place someone's name in the comment - you are no longer talking about an instituation but the individual. When you say americans are facist - you have crossed that line. A point that I have ackownledged about my own posting stlye and am attempting to refrain from doing in the future.

Are you as an individual willing to find fault in your own actions Squippy? And attempt to change them? Or has you attempted to accuse me of just going to go down the road of faux-martyrdom?


edit to add this link about Jane Fonda's actions during Vietnam.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

Teutonic Knight
06-04-2004, 13:19
Quote[/b] (squippy @ June 04 2004,04:17)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 03 2004,12:29)]Well if Gawain considers "nazi" offensive, then can he in turn, call you "pinko nigger"? Is that offensive? What's the difference?
No, becuase as I pointed out, nigger has several hundreds of years behind it as a term used primarily for abuse. If he resorts to such language, he is demonstrating an attempt purely to offend.

If I make a comparison between a persons politics and the politics of a specific real world institution, then that is clearly a comparison and a claim, not an attempt to offend.

The faux-martyrdom routine doesn't change this one bit. Please note that redleg could not only not dispute, but in fact reinforced, my claim by restating his position on Fonda.
no offence squippy, but I think you're way off base here.

There's no way in hell what you're saying is just "comparing his personal politics to a real world institution" you called him a Fascist and a Nazi. You could have said "your ideas remind me of those held by the Nazis and Fascists of the last century" but no, you said he was and maintain that he is a Fascist and a Nazi.

I could be totally wrong here but I seriously doubt it...

Redleg
06-04-2004, 13:24
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 04 2004,07:19)]
Quote[/b] (squippy @ June 04 2004,04:17)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 03 2004,12:29)]Well if Gawain considers "nazi" offensive, then can he in turn, call you "pinko nigger"? Is that offensive? What's the difference?
No, becuase as I pointed out, nigger has several hundreds of years behind it as a term used primarily for abuse. If he resorts to such language, he is demonstrating an attempt purely to offend.

If I make a comparison between a persons politics and the politics of a specific real world institution, then that is clearly a comparison and a claim, not an attempt to offend.

The faux-martyrdom routine doesn't change this one bit. Please note that redleg could not only not dispute, but in fact reinforced, my claim by restating his position on Fonda.
no offence squippy, but I think you're way off base here.

There's no way in hell what you're saying is just "comparing his personal politics to a real world institution" you called him a Fascist and a Nazi. You could have said "your ideas remind me of those held by the Nazis and Fascists of the last century" but no, you said he was and maintain that he is a Fascist and a Nazi.

I could be totally wrong here but I seriously doubt it...
Your not off TK.

He has called me the same- terms he has direct at me in past posts.

Nazi
Facist
Imperialistic Racist


And I have been just as guilty of making insults direct back at him.

The difference is I see where my actions were wrong and decided to try to change.

Voigtkampf
06-04-2004, 14:39
Quote[/b] (Redleg @ June 04 2004,07:24)]Your not off TK.

He has called me the same- terms he has direct at me in past posts.

Nazi
Facist
Imperialistic Racist


And I have been just as guilty of making insults direct back at him.

The difference is I see where my actions were wrong and decided to try to change.
FYI, all of those words are rude and offensive; plain insults.

Redleg, I'm glad to see you trying to correct yourself regarding your dictionary, for your own good and peace of mind. I believe you know well that all the truthful content of one's post is gone with the wind if the person starts insulting others; it diminishes the poster and makes his statements "less" valuable.

To believe you can call someone a Nazi or a Fascist clearly demonstrates that the person representing that point of view either isn't mature/intelligent enough to understand how terribly wrong that is or it is plain "ox-manure".


Again, to all, PM me or any other Tavern staff member if you see someone using foul language and seemingly is getting away with it.

Bhruic
06-04-2004, 15:50
Sorry voigtkampf, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. 'Nazi' is a term that describes a particular political party, one that has significant negative overtones to it (to put it mildly). So, certainly, calling someone a 'Nazi' would be wrong.

'Fascist', however, refers to a system of government ('Fascism'). To suggest that we are unable to refer to a system of government would be, imo, ludicrous. You'd pretty much have to ban "Democrat" and "Republican", as both of those refer to systems of government.

Bh

Teutonic Knight
06-04-2004, 16:29
Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ June 04 2004,10:50)]'Fascist', however, refers to a system of government ('Fascism'). To suggest that we are unable to refer to a system of government would be, imo, ludicrous. You'd pretty much have to ban "Democrat" and "Republican", as both of those refer to systems of government.

Bh
just don't call people names they find offensive, ok?

Most people are offended when you call them a fascist, so just avoid name-calling period.

Dhepee
06-04-2004, 16:59
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 04 2004,11:29)]
Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ June 04 2004,10:50)]'Fascist', however, refers to a system of government ('Fascism'). To suggest that we are unable to refer to a system of government would be, imo, ludicrous. You'd pretty much have to ban "Democrat" and "Republican", as both of those refer to systems of government.

Bh
just don't call people names they find offensive, ok?

Most people are offended when you call them a fascist, so just avoid name-calling period.
But what do you classify as "name-calling"? While calling someone a "nazi" is clearly offensive if you ban all name calling how would you treat someone who calls another member "liberal" or "conservative"? If you allow someone to use those names then your rule is no longer a consistent one. It becomes either a rule by list, this list is okay and this list is not okay, or a contextual rule, in the context of a statement or discussion a name used is either permissible or not.

On the one hand we have our current system that combines rule by list and rule by context, which are both subjective. The downside is that any subjective standard is debatable and someone will always say that it is unfair; usually the person being sanctioned. The upside is that it allows for more free-flowing and lively conversations. You can make more forceful statements as long as you don't pick fights or flame someone.

On the other hand you have a hard and fast rule against name calling of any kind and the result is that enforcement is very cut and dried. There can be no debates either the offender did or did not use name calling. In this system there can be no question of fairness as long as the rule is applied to everybody. The downside is that conversations become very stilted and the forum losses some of its vivacity because you cannot actively engage other members.

In our current system we rely on members to self-moderate. In exchange for more freedom is the need to use it responsibly. We allow a degree of name calling, i.e. liberal/conservative, but we also expect that everybody will not consciously seek to offend or start fights by using names or themes that are generally offensive or generally give rise to conflict, i.e. nazi, racist, etc.

If people can self moderate then we can have a better forum with better discussions. If one or two people can't self-moderate then better to sanction them than to create overly restrictive rules for all of the members.

Bhruic
06-04-2004, 18:26
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 04 2004,11:29)]just don't call people names they find offensive, ok?

Most people are offended when you call them a fascist, so just avoid name-calling period.
If someone advocates beliefs that are fascist in nature, then I don't see anything wrong with calling them a "fascist". If correctly labelling someone's beliefs offends an individual, then I suggest they have a closer look at what those beliefs are.

I suspect the reason most people are offended to be called a "fascist" is a simple one - most people aren't fascists.

Bh

Teutonic Knight
06-04-2004, 20:16
Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ June 04 2004,13:26)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 04 2004,11:29)]just don't call people names they find offensive, ok?

Most people are offended when you call them a fascist, so just avoid name-calling period.
If someone advocates beliefs that are fascist in nature, then I don't see anything wrong with calling them a "fascist". If correctly labelling someone's beliefs offends an individual, then I suggest they have a closer look at what those beliefs are.

I suspect the reason most people are offended to be called a "fascist" is a simple one - most people aren't fascists.

Bh
I can agree with that.

Voigtkampf
06-04-2004, 20:52
Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ June 04 2004,09:50)]Sorry voigtkampf, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. 'Nazi' is a term that describes a particular political party, one that has significant negative overtones to it (to put it mildly). So, certainly, calling someone a 'Nazi' would be wrong.

'Fascist', however, refers to a system of government ('Fascism'). To suggest that we are unable to refer to a system of government would be, imo, ludicrous. You'd pretty much have to ban "Democrat" and "Republican", as both of those refer to systems of government.

Bh
Your agreements or disagreements are irrelevant here, and make the content of my statement not more or less truthful.

Comparing Democrats and Republicans with Nazis and Fascists, calling them all merely political currents, is nonsense. Fascism was a political movement before it became a system of government, much like the communism was the movement the spawned communistic governing system. These two are basically opportunistic to democratic view of the world and are barren of all respect for the essential human rights and freedoms.

I am not discussing semantics here. I leave that to those with much more time and patience then I do have. Fascism and Nazism were two movements/government forms/call it what you want that have been directly responsible for murdering millions, much like communism, and calling someone fascist is also implying that the said person is as malevolent as those former movements/governments et cetera.

And if this doesn't convince you, go out the door and pick any number of people and tell them they are fascists, and be sure to tell us how it went.

Bhruic
06-04-2004, 23:56
I'm not sure that avoiding my point really helps yours any. Of course I'm not advocating randomly calling people fascists. To suggest I am is simply creating a strawman for you to attack in an attempt to make me look bad. But as I never made that argument, it does nothing to disprove my point.

I'll make my point extremely clear: If someone is advocating Fascism, then to describe them as a Fascist would, by definition, be accurate. If someone is advocating positions that are similar to Fascism, then again, labeling that individual as a Fascist would be accurate.

And, please, don't go with the "directly responsible for murdering millions" line. Catholicism was directly responsible for the torture and mutilation (and death, of course) of thousands during the Inquisition (at a time when thousands was a substantially larger percentage of the population than now). Should we decide that Catholicism is unmentionable? Should we ban people for calling someone else a Catholic (or, worse yet, admitting to being one)?

I'm all for eliminating so-called "name calling", but the runaway movement to simply eliminate words from our vocabulary because using them might offend someone seems a little on the oppressive side.

Bh

Gregoshi
06-05-2004, 00:44
The problem with simply slapping a label on some one is that you are assuming that the other readers know enough to associate the statements of the "accused" with the label given. In the case of fascism, how many people here know what it is all about? I don't. I know Mussolini was a Fascist, but in all the reading I did on WW2, I don't recall ever coming across the ideals of fascism.

A better (and more educational) way of saying the same thing is to relate the belief expressed with those of fascism. "When you say you believe XYZ, that is very similar to the beliefs held by Fascist." A further word or two about why that is a bad belief to have (if it is not obvious) would further support your position.

The thing about name calling is that half of it is the name itself, but the other half is the context. "Liberal" and "conservative" might be "safe" labels but in the right context could become a flame. Calling a conservative a "liberal" (or vis versa) may be intended and/or taken as an insult.

Bhruic
06-05-2004, 01:10
I agree Gregoshi, and (hopefully) that's what I was pointing out. Someone saying something like "You Fascist", or "You're a Fascist" without anything to support or back that up would, imo, be wrong. I'm just suggesting that saying "It is always wrong to call someone a Fascist" is not a good way to look at it. There may be a situation where it is correct, and as long as it's handled correctly, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't mean to imply that it should freely be used as an insult.

And I agree with the second part of your post as well. When it comes down to it, there's almost nothing that can't be used as an insult, if one portrays it as such. I could very easily use "Catholic" as an insult, for example, by drawing the parallel with the current "altar boy" style scandal. But the potential for causing offense should not outweight the fact that the word does have a proper use and a proper context.

Bh

Duke John
06-05-2004, 07:00
Bhruic
Could you please make another post in the Tavern where you discuss wether calling someone a fascist is a nice thing to do. It seems that you are discussing just for the discussion and this thread is about how the moderators can improve their moderation.

(Everbody)
And could everbody please do that? Or perhaps just make a seperate topic on how the Tavern Moderators are doing their job. It seems that the only moderation in the Org (=gaming site) is about handling political issues...

Voigtkampf
06-05-2004, 11:05
Bhruic,

I wasn't attacking you. I was trying to appeal to one thing; common sense.

I wasn't avoiding your point, yet you failed to realize that. The fact that you disagree with me upon this behalf doesn't change the fact that my statement is true; my disagreement with the fact that the moon is Earth's satellite and claim that it was a planet itself won't make it so.

And why not come with the statement that the Nazis and Fascists have killed millions? While catholic inquisition has killed thousands indeed and has done some severe atrocities in the medieval times, almost all other religions did the same, as well as various government forms have conducted wars and killed hundreds of thousands.

Does that make them the same? Never.

The essence of Christianity and Islam, like many other religions, is to do good and respect life, love the fellow man and help unselfishly whenever possible. Those who do not follow those principles do wrong and hurt their religion more then anyone else. The guidelines of Nazism and Fascism were to do harm; to kill a Jew or another member of "lower value races" was considered duty.


Quote[/b] ]but the runaway movement to simply eliminate words from our vocabulary because using them might offend someone seems a little on the oppressive side.

I cannot possibly believe you thought this one through. Well, interpreting this would mean that people should call Afro-Americans "ni***rs", homosexuals "qu**rs", et cetera, and wonder stupendously why these find themselves offended. Or even scream how "oppressive" is to forbid these words.

Someone can scream "democrat", "Catholic", "liberal", "conservative" at me as much he wants, but when someone calls me a "fascist", he is in for big trouble.


Ergo, to put it down as clear and obvious as it should be all the way from the start, many people would find themselves offended when they are being called fascists. There are many other terms that various groups of people resent, and for that mere reason this term should not be used here. And, once again, if someone has doubts whether some term is socially/publicly accepted, he should go out in the real world and try it out to find out himself how appropriate is to call people certain ways.

Bhruic
06-05-2004, 15:25
voigtkampf -

See, that's just it. You thinking you are correct doesn't make it true either. To use your own example, if you thought that the Moon was made of green cheese, that doesn't make it so. Similarily, in this case, just because you believe that "Fascist" should never be used doesn't make it true. It makes it your opinion. I seriously hope you don't believe that all of your opinions are automatically true.

You are also incorrect about what the "guidelines of Fascism" were. As I said, Fascism is a form of government. The Nazis were a party. Trying to equate the two is utterly incorrect.

Fascism: a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism is an excellent site that details the political ideals that Fascism represents, as well as the numerous governments that have been Fascist (up to 1975, well after WWII).

It's quite obvious from your description of what "Fascism is" that you have no idea what Fascism is/was really about, so perhaps after reading that site you'll have a better idea.

As for the word choice, no I'm not advocating the use of "derogatory" insults. Words that are designed and function purely as insults really have no place here.

As to your final "criteria", how is that supposed to be an indication? Were I to walk around calling random people Communists, I'm sure they would be offended. Were I to walk up to someone belonging to the Communist Party of Canada and call them a Communist, they'd just nod their head.

I really don't understand how you can be missing this point. The fact that a word doesn't apply on a global scale is irrelevant. If it is applicable to the situation, then there seems no reason not to use it. Please don't continue to presume that I am advocating randomly throwing it off at any forum user I please. I'm not. I've demonstrated that I'm not. Continuing to argue against that point is futile.

Bh

ichi
06-05-2004, 16:01
Is it just me, or does this seem to be WWWWWAAAAYYYYYYY off topic?

I like this thread - it allows me to get a little feedback from the people who care enough to comment on the moderation here at the Org. Sometimes that feedback is positive and sometimes it is critical, either way it is useful stuff.

Lately it has become a thread about posting responsibility and the semantics of name-calling. Maybe some useful stuff, maybe even some ideas that are pertient to moderating, but IMO much would be suited for other threads.

ichi

BTW the Mods in the MP Forum are doing a great job

Bhruic
06-05-2004, 16:11
You're right ichi (although I wouldn't sum it up as "semantics" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). My apologies for the off-topicedness (?) of my posts - if voigtkampf wants to continue this elsewhere (although I suspect not), I'd be happy to move there. Otherwise, in general, mods are doing a good job by my standards. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Bh

Voigtkampf
06-05-2004, 19:34
You are right, ichi, this is slightly going off-topic.

Bhruic, you are partially right; I won't get into this anymore. Obviously you are experiencing an urge to discuss ad nauseam, and I am obliged to discuss this one out with you because I am an AM here at the Org and have to deal with similar issues in the Tavern on a daily basis.

So, you think because Google threw out the vikipedia entry you can argue down someone that has a legal education and has studied basically all the different forms of governments and diplomatic systems from ancient Babylon to modern states? If so, good luck in future discussions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The point is; it is inappropriate to call someone a fascist, and for that reason you will never hear any politician/educated person saying that to another politician/educated person, and only places where you'll hear someone calling another a fascist is in the Tavern before a brawl starts.

Furthermore, I will never allow the use of that word on my watch.

Respectfully,

voigtkampf

Teutonic Knight
06-05-2004, 20:10
Quote[/b] ]Someone can scream "democrat", "Catholic", "liberal", "conservative" at me as much he wants, but when someone calls me a "fascist", he is in for big trouble.


The defining sentence of the last three pages...

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-05-2004, 20:21
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 05 2004,20:10)]
Quote[/b] ]Someone can scream "democrat", "Catholic", "liberal", "conservative" at me as much he wants, but when someone calls me a "fascist", he is in for big trouble.


The defining sentence of the last three pages...
But why is Fascist such a touchy word. I'm inclined to Agree with Bhruic here. It's just a term for a political movement.

Teutonic Knight
06-05-2004, 20:26
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ June 05 2004,15:21)]
Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 05 2004,20:10)]
Quote[/b] ]Someone can scream "democrat", "Catholic", "liberal", "conservative" at me as much he wants, but when someone calls me a "fascist", he is in for big trouble.


The defining sentence of the last three pages...
But why is Fascist such a touchy word. I'm inclined to Agree with Bhruic here. It's just a term for a political movement.
but so is Nazi so that's a mute point.

It's the historical implications that go with the term that make it offensive.

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-05-2004, 20:33
But the difference is, that I doubt there are any Nazis on the forum, whereas there might be some people who support policies that might be deemed fascist. What else are we going to call them?

Teutonic Knight
06-05-2004, 20:34
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ June 05 2004,15:33)]But the difference is, that I doubt there are any Nazis on the forum, whereas there might be some people who support policies that might be deemed fascist. What else are we going to call them?
there's a hole in your argument.

You're suggesting that if there were indeed Nazis on the forum we should call them Nazis correct?

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-05-2004, 20:41
Well, if they came out and said 'I'm a card carrying member of the Nazi party", I think it would be fair.

Teutonic Knight
06-05-2004, 22:19
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ June 05 2004,15:41)]Well, if they came out and said 'I'm a card carrying member of the Nazi party", I think it would be fair.
well what if they didn't, as is comparable to this situation. What if their political beliefs only seemed to mirror those of the traditional Nazi party, but they didn't claim to be nazis themselves, then would it be ok to call them nazis?

ichi
06-05-2004, 23:22
Thanks Bhruic and Voigt for heeding my pleas.

I guess TK and BKS are going to continue debating whether calling someone a Nazi or Fascist or Liberal or Whatever is right or wrong.

Oh well . . .

In my opinion the Frontroom idea is working well.

The primary aspect that people post on in this thread has to do with warnings and closing topics and such (AKA Forum Fascism), http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

but I have found that moderating is about a lot of other things, like making stickies and unmaking stickies and providing hints and ideas to folks.

Anybody got any ideas about moderating that isnt focused on the Fascist aspect

ichi

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-06-2004, 01:09
Quote[/b] ]I guess TK and BKS are going to continue debating whether calling someone a Nazi or Fascist or Liberal or Whatever is right or wrong.

Sorry man, I didn't notice that. I apologise, and will cease any kind of debate.

Teutonic Knight
06-06-2004, 01:13
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ June 05 2004,20:09)]
Quote[/b] ]I guess TK and BKS are going to continue debating whether calling someone a Nazi or Fascist or Liberal or Whatever is right or wrong.

Sorry man, I didn't notice that. I apologise, and will cease any kind of debate.
AND I WILL REFUSE TO ACCEPT

TO THE DEATH....or hot lovin' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink3.gif

whichever may come first http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Gregoshi
06-06-2004, 02:43
BKS, the point being made was not that the debate has no merit, but that it is off-topic for this thread. It should have its own thread if anyone wishes to discuss it further. BTW, I was guilty too of taking the thread off course. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

ichi
06-06-2004, 08:59
*Totally changes direction and takes this thread back Off Topic*

@BKS I actually saw the Wish You Were Here Tour, in '78 I think. My friends tell me I had a great time. Historical records from that era are spotty at best.

@TK (a la Homer) mmmmmm.... hot lovin

OK, back on thread

Maybe a better title for this thread would have been "How can the Mods improve?" instead of are they doing a good job.

How can we?

ichi

dessa14
06-06-2004, 11:35
9.24 percent against current mods.
11.76 are too afraid to say.
thanks, dessa

A.Saturnus
06-06-2004, 15:54
I really don´t see where the problem is. When someone doesn´t want to be called a fascist (and that are supposedly most people), you don´t call him a fascist. If you know that someone doesn´t want to be called a liberal, you don´t call him a liberal. And if someone doesn´t want to be called Eddy Baby, you don´t call him Eddy Baby.

Voigtkampf
06-06-2004, 16:08
Quote[/b] (ichi @ June 05 2004,17:22)]The primary aspect that people post on in this thread has to do with warnings and closing topics and such (AKA Forum Fascism), http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

but I have found that moderating is about a lot of other things, like making stickies and unmaking stickies and providing hints and ideas to folks.

Anybody got any ideas about moderating that isnt focused on the Fascist aspect

ichi
True enough, ichi. Unless you are moderating the tavern

I was/am in charge for custom avatars section, people would upload custom avatar/signature pictures, I would check whether they match the criteria and make them available for use, often have I offered my help (though not obliged to do so) and have helped some members by altering their pictures for them. They would say "thank you, you are so nice" I'd say "aww, you'll spoil me, I'm just doing my job" and there would be love and peace everywhere. I also host the Arena screenshots page where patrons can upload the shots from their games.

The world was fine until I accepted Saturnus' offer to work in the Tavern. Oddly enough, in a PM some two weeks before that he said to me "if anyone offers you this job, refuse" Obviously, I didn't listen to him…

Ichi, your area of MP is relatively quite and peaceful, and you should be grateful for that. In Tavern, the mods are bound to be declared a Nazi/Fascist/bigot/partial/incompetent/unfair, all in day's work.

Hence the tavern is the killing ground of the Org, and no place for gentle souls. Fights escalate within minutes and we are bound to spend more time warning people then giving them advices or helping them out. When people have nothing better to do, they go to tavewrn, looking for a fight.

I hope it will change as soon R:TW comes out. Hurry up, CA


PS Don't mistake my statement about gentle souls; I'm not implying that you're one, incapable of acting; err, also not implying that you are a brutal soul… I just wanted to…

And hence begins the bashing and swearing and cursing and closing and editing and warning…

The Blind King of Bohemia
06-06-2004, 16:43
Luckily i've been made an AM in the Dungeon and fights and such never occur. I feel for the moderators in places like the Tavern because things can get heated and i admire anyone who tries to sort out the problems there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nowake
06-06-2004, 17:39
Quote[/b] ]Hence the tavern is the killing ground of the Org, and no place for gentle souls. Fights escalate within minutes and we are bound to spend more time warning people then giving them advices or helping them out. When people have nothing better to do, they go to tavewrn, looking for a fight.


Just started to frequent it more often voigtkampf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Anyway, my point: why so hard to deal with the troublesome? You warn them, delete/edit their posts, and if they don't comply, ban directly. After 2-3 examples of these kind of determined action, everybody will be very polite. The Org is big enough to support the new policy even if some will choose to call the place a tyrany and leave it. I myself tested this on some forums where I am a mod, and it proved very succesfull.

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-06-2004, 18:16
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ June 06 2004,02:43)]BKS, the point being made was not that the debate has no merit, but that it is off-topic for this thread. It should have its own thread if anyone wishes to discuss it further. BTW, I was guilty too of taking the thread off course. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
That was how I took it. When I said I was going to cease debate, I menat in this thread.

ichi
06-06-2004, 20:17
Quote[/b] ]PS Don't mistake my statement about gentle souls; I'm not implying that you're one, incapable of acting; err, also not implying that you are a brutal soul… I just wanted to…

I like to think of myself as a rabid, gentle spirit. For example, I set things on fire for a living, but I do it for a good reason.

And yes, I am glad that the controversy in the MP Forum is not nearly as bad as that in the Tavern (altho it does get testy once in a while).

ichi

hrvojej
06-06-2004, 20:51
Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ June 03 2004,16:54)]The difference is that when you make a comment about "America" you are commenting on the entity that is America but not the people who are themselves Americans. America, or any entity, represents whatever that entity stands for but it does not itself represent the people that make it up. For that reason any attack on the entity, as long as you don't bring the people into it, is permissible. America is a nation but Americans are people, that is the difference, a subtle one but an important one.

If we were to disallow an attack on "America" then we would have to disallow attacks on any entity if we were to be consistent. It would severely limit your ability to criticize the actions of any entity such as a religious entity, corporate entity, national entity, etc, and this would make for very boring threads.

What is not allowed is any attack on a person or person(s) so for that reason a statement flaming the American people would not be allowed, just as a statement flaming any other national, racial, ethnic, or religious group is not allowed.

We cannot afford "America" any special protection that we do not afford to all other countries or entities and to afford that protection would fetter much of what we say in the Tavern.

The rule of thumb is this: You can say "Mars is an awful place" but you cannot say "Martians are awful." In the first example you attack Mars without attacking the Martians but in the second, the not allowed, example you attack the Martians. If there is one thing that I will not tolerate it is flaming martians.
What if I had it from good authority, as in a guy from Jupiter told me, that the Martians are in fact the scum of the Solar system, that they are mostly drug dealers, terrorists and criminals, actually if anything that they are at least as bad as the Neptunians? Would that be ok to write then? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Voigtkampf
06-06-2004, 22:11
Get back to Earth you two… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

hrvojej
06-07-2004, 00:30
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ June 06 2004,17:11)]Get back to Earth you two… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I am on Earth and from Earth, that's the whole point. We're talking about principles here.

Voigtkampf
06-07-2004, 07:24
Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ June 06 2004,18:30)]
Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ June 06 2004,17:11)]Get back to Earth you two… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I am on Earth and from Earth, that's the whole point. We're talking about principles here.
I know that, I was joking Relax… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hrvojej, I believe that you have enough common sense to judge yourself what is all right to be said or not. I've seen your posts and know you are quite eloquent and civilized person.
There are no exact rules here at the Org about permissible slanders, we are all trying to maneuver our way through each and every crisis.
In my eyes, it is never appropriate to bash Mars; mostly it goes like "Mars is a typical example for low-lives, and they ain't even naturally green", then some Martians go "Since it comes from Neptunians, anorganic molesters and abusers of ammoniac, I won't even bother to answer.", and some Martians will go "Oh, yeah? Well, up yours, you intergalactic human abducting scum", Neptunians go "We were merely researching, you were sodomizing that helpless bipedals" and so forth ad infinituum.

Unfortunately, rarely someone says "I disagree with Mars' decision to conduct extreme probing on humans, it throws a bad light on that planet and will eventually bring them in a warning from Interstellar Organization for Protection of Undeveloped Civilizations", and even when someone manages to be so eloquent and non-offensive, there will always be a Martian with "Up yours" attitude.

Ergo, it is best/safest to let go of bashing any planet. Unfortunately, beyond the principles that are being listed in the forum rules, there are no further guidelines and moderators are being left to interpret them to their best extent. So, no exact rules can be established.

Duke John
06-07-2004, 07:56
Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately, beyond the principles that are being listed in the forum rules, there are no further guidelines and moderators are being left to interpret them to their best extent. So, no exact rules can be established.
voigtkampf, you do talk the talk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smartass2.gif

Voigtkampf
06-07-2004, 15:13
Quote[/b] (Duke John @ June 07 2004,01:56)]voigtkampf, you do talk the talk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smartass2.gif
Yessir, but I can also walk the talk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif Besides, when you receive a lawyer's education, even if you do not practice law, you are deemed to preserve some ability to wiggle around the issue

On the serious side, how do I work? If something said could be a subject to a sue before a court of law, and would have a reasonable chance of succeeding in the pending process, I tend to step in and wave the moderator's red card.

Nigel
06-10-2004, 11:20
From what I have seen in the MP forum recently, very good moderating action from all mods involved.

Editing a post to comply with the rules.

Listening to and commenting on comments made and concerns voiced.

Taking actions to try and steer the conversation to the appropriate dircetion and location.

And finally, closing a topic where all points have been made and things are now threatening to develop into a mere flaming match.


Well done, IMHO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

ah_dut
06-10-2004, 22:46
I also agree that the mods do a good job, however, i think that a stricter policy may be necessary in that place the TAVERN. I want to be a mod but in the tavern no way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

King Edward
06-29-2004, 13:44
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ June 06 2004,15:54)]I really don´t see where the problem is. When someone doesn´t want to be called a fascist (and that are supposedly most people), you don´t call him a fascist. If you know that someone doesn´t want to be called a liberal, you don´t call him a liberal. And if someone doesn´t want to be called Eddy Baby, you don´t call him Eddy Baby.
I have no Objection to being called Eddy Baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

ah_dut
06-29-2004, 15:39
eddy baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif and i think the mods are doing a good job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

Navaros
07-12-2004, 11:49
certain Mods here are too lax

other Mods here are too strict

other Mods here crackdown on some things like flaming, yet at the same time turn a blind eye to worse offenses, like spamming made simply to increase a spammer's spam count

so i say average. the Mods here could be doing a better job, and they could also be doing a worse job

props to Gregoshi tho, that guy rocks hardcore

TosaInu
07-12-2004, 13:38
Hello Navaros,

There are certainly different styles between the mods as there are between posters. There are also different types of forums, the Mead Hall for example doesn't compare to the Tavern (that's fine as there's a place and time for many things).

I do not agree that spamming (in the designed places) is equally bad as flaming. Spamming (when is a series of post spam?) is annoying in serious topics only. Flames spread throughout the entire board.

I can imagine what you mean though. One of the problems for moderators is that you first have to spot the offense, then rate it and finally take action. All 3 are error prone.

About 500 posts are made every then, and some are quite large. Within that post can be a hidden insult. And even if the mod finds the needle in the haystack, can he see it's a needle? That's not always obvious.

How serious is the needle? Not rarely people are throwing needles at each other. Not nice, but should there be action now? Medicines can be nastier than a disease and some diseases cure by themselves.

Actions are usually done behind the scenes. A PM is sent, the first warning cards are invisible. We want to stop something, not nail a person in public. Of course there are public actions when the private ones sort no effect, or when there is a history.

And yes, when a mod edits your post it reads edited by ... But a behind the scenes edit doesn't seem a nice system either. Not that any of the mods would abuse it, but it's not a comfortable idea.

Actually, I'm a quite disappointed that moderators, password protected accounts, password protected databases, flood control and all other things are required on a forum.
A forum shouldn't need any of this, only keep the software running and help each other out. Fortunately, the latter part is still the main job of moderators.