You have found a savepoint

[frogbeastegg]

Savepoints, or more accurately saving your game in general - what do you think? Do you like savepoints? Do you like to be able to save anywhere and any time without limitation? Do you want to have a limited number of saves in each game, to be used at will? To quicksave or not to quicksave? Basically do you want to save when you want or when the developers decide?

I hate savepoints, I hate limited saves and I hate games without quicksave. I don't like playing for more than half an hour at a time so that often leaves me trekking on longer than I want in search of a savepoint. Is it more fun to keep replaying an area from start each time you die? I think not, let me save part way through and slwoly inch past whatever is killnig me withouit the boredom and frustration of redoing all the bits I can do How many times have we started a battle in MTW only to run out of time half way through? More times than we can count probably Why not have a quicksave in battle so you can go eat, or live, or whatever?

The argument I most often see against saving when you like is that people will use it to 'cheat' and reload near where they are dying or to get a better result on a battle or something. To that I say so what? Does it really matter if someone on the other side of the world is reloading his game just before a boss when he dies, instead of trekking back through the entire level to show how tough he is? No it does not Does it matter in MTW if someone reloads their battle in the middle so they only need repeat half of it, or just before the battle started so they have to fight it all again? No It would be in SP only so it wouldn’t affect anyone but the person reloading their own game. It's the same as those who condemn cheats in SP because they don't like them, therefore no one should use them. As long as it is SP only so what?

Hope that makes sense, I'm feeling a bit frazzled because (yep you guessed it) I spent 25 minutes longer playing Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy than I wanted to, looking for a savepoint so I could quit because I'd had enough. Damn good game so far but having to complete the entire first and second section in one go because there was no convenient savepoint really put my nose out of joint I thought finish the first section, there will be a save at the start of the second section so I can quit and pick it up from there later but of course there wasn't. Gah Yes, before anyone tells me there were two savepoints in section one but neither of them were close to where I wanted to quit and I couldn’t go back to them either. I just know that this game is going to be really good...I just know I am going to be trekking on longer than I want to find each savepoint. Gah

[Ser Clegane]

I definitely prefer to have the choice if and when I save a game.

My leisure time is too limited to spend it repeating half hour section of games over and over again because of a difficult game situation without saving option.

As much as I loved the original Dark Forces, the developers' idea of only allowing to save the game after alevel was finished was outrageous (I developed some rather violent fantasies when I played that game).

Regarding the cheating argument: GAH
If I buy a game it's my business how I enjoy it.

[Sjakihata]

Both aye and nay

I like to save and then quit, not running around to find the right spot. BUT I dislike to run around slay an enemy and save. Get to the next enemy, and if I do not do well, lose too much health, then just load, that is imo cheat, but I can't help my self. This applies esp. to morrowind and half-life like games. Where you play a big campaing.


So, I guess saving is cool, but games like rogue spear it would be uncool to save in a mission.

[Cazbol]

In general I'm not too fond of limits on saves but there are cases where it seems to work. Operation Flahpoint comes to mind. There it's an essential part of the feeling of the game, the feeling that resembles the fear of death better than I've seen in any other game. In the 5th mission or thereabout you're on the run in the woods with enemy patrols looking for you all over the place. That really gives you the do or die feeling and you catch yourself chanting I'm going to make it out of here.

In X - Beyond the Frontier you have to pay game money to be allowed to save.

Other games would be almost unplayable if it wasn't possible to reload old saves. Imagine dying just before meeting Nihilant in Half-Life and having to do him with the crowbar.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

The trouble is, though, in some games the ability to save whenever you want can rob them of tension. However; in general I do enjoy being able to save whenever I want.

Cazbol, do you have X2? If so, what do you think of it?

[Crazy Duke]

I agree with you I do save my games, almost for each turn. Also quick save during the battle is something that I need badly, cause sometimes it long for more than I have no time to finish it. So that will be good to continue next time.

Also AI sometimes simply make wrong moves, espeacilly when you sure your assasin with few star can kill a simple figure with no experience, on his land, and he just been catch and murdered. And when you look back how much time you spent training him, no way, I will turn the game on, so I save my all turns and will do that always.

Also in some games I don't like limited saves, especially when they too tough.

Many people will say it's like a real world, try to realize that. I agree with that. But this is still game, and I want to play it on the way I like
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 22 2004,16:03)]Do you like to be able to save anywhere and any time without limitation?
I believe that anything other than unlimited, anytime saving is punitive. I should get to play the game however I like and not be forced to repeat whole levels or parcel out saves like they were precious.

Not all saves are defensive insurance policies. Sometimes I intend to revisit a part of a game later because the future looks interesting and I may want to try a different approach or tactic. I may clobber the boss on my first attempt but go back days later to tackle him again a different way because it was so much fun the first time.

We all need to save to avoid having to repeat boring or tedious parts of a game. You know, those stretches that can occur even in our favorite games that we just don't like.

I understand the value of tension. To preserve tension, don't use saves It's simple. In my Red Baron days I never resurrected a dead pilot. When they died I left them dead and started a new campaign. It made me a very conservative flier. It also had me sweating out a lot of near death experiences as I limped home across No Man's Land.

[frogbeastegg]

I remember spending months trying to finish the last level of Dark Forces because I couldn't find where to plant one explosive charge, you had to drop down some tiny hole in a conveyer belt system. The reason it took so long was the way I had to start the level from scratch each time. Well that and the presence of many other identical holes all of which lead to death drops

I also remember having to pay for saves in X-Beyond the Frontier, one in a long line of Privateer 2 semi replacements I tried (didn't replace it, drat). It hurt at the start of the game when you were dirt poor but once you got going it didn't matter much, I can remember having to run trading runs on energy cells from a solar power plant to the main station in the first sector each time I wanted to save - about 7 minutes work for one puny save That meant I was only really progressing by 20 minutes per play session.

If the option to save anytime is there you can use it or not. If the option is not there you are forced to go with 'not'.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Feb. 22 2004,16:30)]Cazbol, do you have X2? If so, what do you think of it?
I don't have X2, at least not yet. The thing is that I haven't even got very far with X. The fact that the English version was sold out and I therefore had to get the German version may play a part in that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[hrvojej]

The one and only reason I'll never play Diablo 2 is its save policy. I hate it when you cannot save anytime anywhere. Games are things of fun, not proving grounds of how tough you are. And besides, you can always choose not to save if that suits you. More options is always better than fewer ones.

[Matt Deckard]

They do have advantages though. The very fact that you don't want to reply a section means you wrok harder to stay alive.

There was a game on the Xbox that was totally ruthless (needed a massive controller, the name escapes me). Basically, throughtout the duration of the game, you had three mechs. Should one of them get blown up, you have to quickly hit the eject button. Failing to do that resulted in a game over screen and a wiped save file http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[spmetla]

I like saves so long as they're like at the end of a level or whatever the modern gaming term for it is. In strategy games it's a must. I need to say that one of the big minuses I felt form Delta Force to Delta Force: Landwarrior was the implementation of the save game ingame, it used to be a really tense game, now it's just another modern shooter game.

[Spino]

Save points are a mixed bag for me. The more mindless the game the more I despise savepoints, limited numbers of save slots, etc. and just about anything else that forces me to repeat ad nauseum some near brainless execution of shooting, killing and jumping. But in general save points are a no-no for me. Things like save points and limited numbers of save slots are but one of the reasons why I loathe console games. Designers should leave it up to the end user to decide how they are going to spend their time playing the game.

Besides, for those of us with grown up responsibilities that consume much of our adult lives the ability to save almost anytime we want is an absolute blessing.

[el_slapper]

I save as a crazy guy, because I used to have a buggy PC, in the past... 1 save every 15 seconds, maximum. Savepoints are helle when your config is unstable(fortunately, my new one is faaar better - but the reflex stays).

But the purpose is to reload as few as possible.

[The Wizard]

Personally I really don't like savepoints. The only game ever that I played where it was executed well was Silver by Infogrames (sounds so much better than Atari in its French glory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif), one of my all-time favorite games just 'cuz I remember it so.

I prefer the quicksave/save at all times option to savepoints or limited saves, but in some games it actually fits and it's not a nuisance.



~Wiz

[Catiline]

THere are some games where I think limited saves improves the game. Depends on hte sort of game. If it's a gorefest you need to be able to save as much as you or htings are hopelessly dull. On hte other hand games like Hidden and Dangerous 2 I think benefit massively from hte extra tension. For htose that haven't played it H&D2 had 3 saves per level, but each overwrote the last.The point i htink was to guide you into playing the game at its best which was as a squad based tactical simulation. some levels, especially the stealth ones simply wouldn't have been any fun with unlimited saves. It also forced you to live with your mistakes (like pressing quick save when a squad member died instead of quick load...) and accept that sometimes you lost good men, but you had to keep on going without them rather htan resurrect them, or use a reload and not be so irresponsible with their lives.

the argument against of course is that it limits gamers choice, which is evidently true. But not everyone can be as virtuous as Nelson and simply leave a dead pilot dead. Some games are clearly designed with a specific style of game play in mind, and i don't think it's un reasonable to structure the save system to encourage that. I certainly got a lot more out of playing knowing that everytime i shot Fritz or loaded a new clip i hadn't hit F5.

[frogbeastegg]

One reasonable compromise between saving when you wish and limited saves at save points that worked can be found in Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, but not the PAL version. In the American and Japanese version there were two kinds of save, a permanent save that can only be performed at set save points and costs one save token. The other is a temporary save that can be done anywhere and is deleted when you load it, enabling you to take a break but not to cheese your way out of mistakes. Sounds really good, and is a compromise that works.

Imagine the irritation when I rented the PAL version of the game only to find temporary saves had been taken out, leaving you with just permanent saves They were still mentioned in them manual but were not present in the game. Yes you could backtrack to earlier save points most of the time but since you had to use tokens to save (you started with 9 instead of 2 but extra tokens were rare) I would run out every quickly if I saved and quit every half hour like I wanted to. Besides why should the PAL gamers have to backtrack a lot and waste their time when everyone else can save and quit and then return immediately to the point they are at with no penalty? In the end I was spending 10 minutes walking back to where I left off, 12 minutes walking back to the save point and only 15 or so minutes playing the game. Needless to say while the game was good I didn't get very far in with a two day rental and I did not buy or rent it again.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Did any of you ever play Legend of Zelda:Majora's mask? That had a somewhat odd save system...

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Feb. 25 2004,17:31)]Did any of you ever play Legend of Zelda:Majora's mask? That had a somewhat odd save system...
Yes, a good but weird game and the save system was no exception. You could save anywhere which was good, but you lost most of your work which was bad. The only way to save without rewinding time was to find an owl statue. For the most part the owl statues were well placed, but there were many occasions where I had to rewind time and lose work because I couldn't get to an owl. I did finish the game but I don't feel the need to keep replaying like TOOT, the save system is part of the reason why. It worked as a one-off, just like the boat in wind waker, but I would not want to see it used again.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Feb. 25 2004,17:47)]
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Feb. 25 2004,17:31)]Did any of you ever play Legend of Zelda:Majora's mask? That had a somewhat odd save system...
Yes, a good but weird game and the save system was no exception. You could save anywhere which was good, but you lost most of your work which was bad. The only way to save without rewinding time was to find an owl statue. For the most part the owl statues were well placed, but there were many occasions where I had to rewind time and lose work because I couldn't get to an owl. I did finish the game but I don't feel the need to keep replaying like TOOT, the save system is part of the reason why. It worked as a one-off, just like the boat in wind waker, but I would not want to see it used again.
I agree, it screamed 'GIMMICK' at the top of it's voice.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Feb. 25 2004,06:05)]But not everyone can be as virtuous as Nelson and simply leave a dead pilot dead.
Truth be told, such virtue came easily in a game with a random campaign generator and four factions. It is tougher to do in a more static game world such as Diablo, a game where I shamelessly backed up my character outside of the game's own interface