Explain this!

[frogbeastegg]

All this talk of Baldur's Gate II and Planescape Tormanet makes me want to play them again, but I'd rather actually understand the rules, combat, magic, character building etc this time, dying constantly because of bad builds and general cluelessness is not exactly good. So anyone want to give the frog a moron level explanation, we are talking extremely basic, talking to a prat type explanation without using numbers and fancy terms like THAC0 all the time.

Failing that can anyone give me a good set of character builds for Planescape? I want a fighting Nameless One, what is the better weapon, knives, axes or hammers? Also stats would be nice I want to talk and think more than hit things, but I hate mages and don't understand the magic system in the slightest I want to get as many memories etc as possible in the one game. Hints for the other characters would be nice too...

Since the topic is here may as well ask for the same for BGII and it's add-on, I can put that build on ice until I finish PT. I usually go fighter type with swords and fancy armour, but I finished BGII as a kensai. Male character gets more quests, right? I think so...female got one possible romance quest thing but male got about 4.

Don't worry about hitting me with spoilers, I have finished BGII and Throne of Baal once but only with a hell of a lot of cheating. I got about 3/4 of the way through PT before my lame character builds buckled under the strain.

[barvaz]

I am playing through BG II again myself. After a rather disappointing experience with SW:KotOR I felt the urge for a real RPG with a party system and there is nothing better than Baldur’s Gate series (actually, I wanted to play the original BG again but the 640x480 resolution was killing me, so I skipped to BG II).

Anyway, never played Planescape Torment so I can’t help you there but there is tons of information for it and BG II on GameBanshee (http://www.gamebanshee.com/) and GameFaqs (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/25804.html) has some AD&D rules explained for BG II and character creation and game tips.

One advice I can give is when playing BG II again, don’t worry about powerful characters and the perfect party. The game is beatable with pretty much every character and party you can come up with. Just roll a character you enjoy playing and put into your party the NPC’s that are the most fun to play with.

If you have more specific questions about BG II just ask away.

- barvaz

[econ21]

I've always found DnD fairly intuitive. The important things are classes and stats.

The best thing about the DnD class based system is mixing different types in a party. With BG2, I would look for about 3 warrior-types (fighter, paladin, ranger); 2 healer types (druid, cleric); 2 mage types and one thief. Yes, that's more than the 6 you are allowed, but there many of the NPCs have two classes. There are lots of workable fun combos, although good and evil NPCs don't mix in BG2.

Generally speaking in 2nd ed DnD, dual classing is insanely powerful. The reason is the almost exponential rise in the cost of going up a level. In BG2, IIRC, if you start as a level 9 fighter, you can get about mage levels 1 to 9 for about the same experience cost as your 10th level of fighter. 3ed fixed this problem. You'll find that dual classed mages in particular get good spells significantly before the multi-classes - although the multi-classes are generally pretty good anyway. Personally, I don't like dual classing - it destroys the immersion for me.

With stats, all you need to know is which ones matter and if you want to, maximise those and minimise the others. In pure DnD (BG) it goes like this:
Dexterity is good for all (better armour class; also better ranged attack)
Constitution is good for all (more hit points).
Strength helps you carry stuff and is the primary stat for melee combat.
Wisdom is for clerics
Mages need intelligence.
Charisma is not that important, except for paladins where very high charisma is a prerequisite and maybe the party trader at shops.

But in PST, I think they made pretty much all the stats worthwhile. I seem to remember wisdom even raised experience and so was a good thing, but it's a long time since I played PST.

One thing to bear in mind about 2ed, is that only very high (15+) or very low (7-) stats matter. There is also a wierd thing about have 18 strength - there are different sub-divisions and an 18/00 (ie role sixes on 3d6 and then a 100 on a d100) is way better than an 18/01. The other thing to bear in mind is that stats matter more than you think - in DnD, even a +1 modifier is a big deal; it can sometimes double your chance to hit.

For example, a great BG fighter would be:
Str 18/00; Dex 18; Con 18; doesn't matter what else
Personally, I find such builds soul destroying, so I never redistribute stat points, just keep re-rolling until I get some stats I like - very high str, decent dex and/or con.

Races are less important than classes or stats, in BG, I'd pick the one that you identify with more. Some races incline more to certain classes but that should be obvious.

I never tried magic in PST, but it was great in BG2. I loved the mage duels where you would fight high level mages that would cast spells granting lots of immunities that required specific counter-spells. The manual is your best friend here, but look out for the very high level protection and counter-spells- stuff like breach, ruby ray of reversal, warding whip etc.

Weapons and stuff should be fairly intuitive - just take the one with highest magic bonus (+3 or whatever) and decent damage. PST was a bit wierd in deliberately depriving you of swords and armour in favour of crude weapons and tatoos. Price is often a fair guide to effectiveness. It pays to specialise in particular weapons - to do this, it also helps to know what special weapons are in the game.

[Phatose]

I've played through torment ten or so times - and I really, really, really recommend against a fighter nameless. Nameless is invincible to begin with, making the main advantage of fighters, their durability, worthless. There is no armor either, so their other big benefit, armor choices is equally as worthless. Axes and Hammers are only marginally better then knives at any point, and the ultimate weapon can be any weapon type you will it to be. Early on you can flaunt your immortality while Dakkon and Morte deal the damage.


The secondary reason is one of stats. Nameless only gets so many to toss around. To be an effective fighter you have to drop those in strength and dexterity - however, the main determinants of how much of the game's plot you see are intelligence, wisdom and charisma. Intelligence is the prime requisite for a mage. Wisdom is just plain important for any nameless - it opens up a lot of conversation options, and at 23 gives a 35% bonus to all your earned XP. Charisma is a place to drop extra points in once wis and int are maxed out - but again, a mage benefits the most because they can use the friends spell to raise it when neccessary. Constitution is useless (you're not gonna die anyway), strength isn't important either, and dex can be handled with tatoos if you really need it.


To be honest, I doubt you can get the 'good' ending as a fighter, at least not without a lot of leveling for extra stat points. I don't think a fighter would have the stats neccessary to get the conversation options needed.



Anyway, the rule for Torment, if you want to see as much as you can, is to get wisdom to 23 ASAP (lots of conversation choices and memories are keyed to wisdom, plus the huge XP bonus), then get INT to 23, then CHA - preferably supplementing those stats with Tatoos and spells whenever possible. Learning how the magic system works is definitely worthwhile, and it's not that complicated - but if you really don't want to, then make Nameless a mage and switch to controlling Dakkon or Morte or someone in battle and let the AI do the spellcasting.



As for the other characters, be sure to talk to them lots, especially when they're in your party. Become a mage, at least for a while, get int and Wis as high as you can and ask Dakkon to teach you about magic - a HUGE amount of his character is revealed in his teaching you in magic.


I could probably go on for ages, but I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll just give the general advice. Use your initial stats points to raise wis and int to 18 and cha to 12. Learn to raise the dead in the mortuary before leaving, the go immediately to the smoldering corpse and talk to O until he opens his head for a free +1 wis. Get Dakkon - and then its up to you, but I really recommend you make a beeline for Mebbeth and become a wizard pronto. Raise INT, WIS and CHA, and if one of your party members seems like they should have something to say, talk to them.

[frogbeastegg]

Thank you all, most helpful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

Right, my new Nameless One is sorted...until I start deciding spells to learn in which case I'll probably get lost again, but that's life.

For BGII/ToB I was thinking kensai/mage dual class. Human male (female voice set is terrible, also you get hit on by Amomen who does little more than whine if I remember correctly), single weapon style with katanas. Apparantly according to all the stuff in the links barvaz posted dualing from kensai to mage at leval 9 is the best option for this character, don't ask my why. 15 str and 17 int are required (again no real idea why. Str to hit stuff and int for good spells obviously, but why those precise numbers?) and I suppose anything left over can be dropped into dex and con. By my incredibly shacky calculations I'll have to finish most of the game before I get my kensai abilities etc back...somehow wandering Amn with what is essentially a level 1 mage sounds likely to prove fatal Am I missing something?

At least this time in BGII/ToB I have some kind of party to build towards, rather than just taking people who didn't argue or complain all the time

[Mount Suribachi]

Froggy, the Kensai/Mage can be a very powerful character, I created one to go with my Paladin (Lady Deburah of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart)

the 15/17 stats is becos to dual class you need 15 in your first class (fighter) and 17 in your 2nd class (mage).

dual at 9th level is to do with the points you get to spend on your weapon specialities IIRC.

As for levelling up - you'll start the game at around level 7. Very quickly you'll make level 9. Once you dual class you'll got through the first few levels very, very quickly. A slightly cheesy way of levelling up your mage is to dump everyone in your party, then learn all the spells off the scrolls you've collected (take a potion of INT beforehand to boost your % of being successful). You get quite a bit of XP for learning spells. You should get to level 10 in no time. There are several good quests in Amn that don't involve too much fighting that you should be able to do.

As for having a powergamer party, or not. Half the fun is having everyone argue Oh, and if you decide to do the Jaheira romance, there is a bug in it, its fixable though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

*suddenly wants to play BG2 again*

BG2 is a great game froggy, make sure to enjoy every bit of it - especially its cast of disfunctional characters http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[barvaz]

About when to dual class:

The question when to dual class is often debated among BG (and other AD&D games) players. Dual too early and you don’t get enough of your starting class to make it worth it, dual too late and you will be playing more of the game with your second lower level class (without you starting class abilities) and possibly not reaching full potential by the end of the game.

As to which level exactly to dual class, it depends on the class you are starting with. For Kensai, you get +1 bonus to hit and damage for every 3 levels, -1 to speed every 4 levels, extra Kai ability every 4 levels and since you are a warrior, you get bonus of half attack per round at level 7 and 13 and extra proficiency slot every 3 levels.

So, dual classing Kensai makes sense at:

Level 9 - Extra proficiency slot, +3 hit/damage
Level 12 - Extra proficiency slot, +4 hit/damage, speed bonus, Kai ability
Level 13 – Additional extra 1/2 attack per round.

Dual classing at level 9 will let you finish the game as 9 Kensai/17 Mage before you hit the exp cap. Dual classing at level 13 and reach only 14 level Mage and painful 13 levels of lower level Mage before gaining back your Kensai abilities. Personally, I don’t think playing most of the game as lower level Mage to be the most powerful by the end of it is worth it but some people won’t play the game otherwise.

The combination of Kensai/Mage is considered the most powerful character among many, some say it is too powerful to the extent of eliminating any challenge by the end of the game.

Myself, I am playing this time through with a goody Paladin and including in my party all the friends that made the long way with me (Imoen, Minsc, Jaheira).

- barvaz

[Mount Suribachi]

Isn't Minsc possibly the greatest computer character ever?

Boo is very small and there is ever so much of Minsc to search

Ewww..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[econ21]

Minsc is great, but could get annoying with his delirious raving when your reputation gets high. There was only so many times I can bear hearing him sing Just you and me and Boo too, hamsters and rangers, heroes everyone or some such.

As an NPC, I preferred Imoen as she was in the starter dungeon (made me feel so protective for some reason) and as a character, I found Irenicus as interesting as he found my character ... I could never find it in myself to hate the guy (unlike the instantly loathesome Saarevok of BG1 who I was desperate to find and gut from the opening pre-rendered movie onwards).

[frogbeastegg]

Once again most helpful, thank you.

Now why couldn't the manual have the bit about dual classing and stat requirements? I checked the bits on dual classing and on the classes themselves but found nothing. It is probably filed away somewhere obscure. The bit about using scrolls to level your mage up will work neatly, I'm not interested in avoiding minor cheese as just finishing the game without rampant cheating will be a major step in the right direction. Minor cheese avoidance next time.

Speaking of spells can anyone point me in the direction of some good ones in PT? I am about to get the bronze sphere and go through the pregnant alley into the next district. I have done Dakkon's zerthimon quest thingy and unlocked all the circles but half the spells seem useless. The anger of (something) spell (red circle icon, level 1 spell) sounds good but I didn't get that one. Magic missile is the only really useful spell I have, armour seemed great until I worked out it set your armour class so it was worse than my characters item etc influenced classes. Shield seems, well a bit pointless. I have several spells like knock and blood bridge but even at level 7 mage I don't seem to have many spell slots. Fortunately at fighter 2/mage 7 with wisdom 23, int 20, char 12 everything is much easier...for some reason this Nameless One is better in melee than my higher dex and str fighters were.

Minsc is one of the best characters in BG, quite the opposite of whining Anoemen and Aerie the depressed fairy. Maybe they get better if you romance them or something, but my main memories of these two is hearing things like: I have no wings, the ground is horrible and everything on it is horrible, oops I didn't mean you and Verily we art doing good, tis fair justice to hit things Now if only I were a knight I could be better, this is all your fault - I have only just met you but I blame you for everything ever. Anomen was good in a melee though, and when you got him knighted he powered up a bit. Imoen was much better in BGII than BG. I don't remember exactly why I found her a bit annoying in BG, I think she may have been a bit too chirpy or kept dying or something. Irenicious was great, but all the way through the game I was trying to place his voice as it was familiar.

Go for the eyes Boo Go for the eyes *squeak*

[Phatose]

First level you pretty much want to stick with magic missle. Humdrum, sure but effective and fast, not to mention that you end up being able to cast it a ridiculous amount of times after the specialization bonus. At level 11+ chromatic orb also becomes pretty nice, since it can paralyze enemies for quite a long time. I seem to remember that melee attacks on paralyzed creatures are instant kills too. Outside of combat, friends and identify are good standby spells.

Level two is all about swarm curse. Good area of effect, doesn't hurt your own guys, good damage total, and it prevent spellcasting the whole time it's in effect. Good crowd control.

Level three you want ax of torment of ball lightning. Elysiums tears is theoretically better, though it's so horribly innaccurate that you're almost always better off with ball lightning or the ax.

Level four, blacksphere is the best. Area of effect, acceptable damage, but most importantly it can hold enemies making them ridiculously easy targets.

Level five has two absolutely killer spells. Cloudkill can wipe out huge groups of weaker creatures. Enoll Eva's Duplication is probably the best spell in the game. It duplicates, well, everything you do for a while. If you cast a spell, you get a second one free, and if you attack, you get a second attack free as long as it lasts.

At level six, you want chain lightning storm. The rest of em kinda suck

At level seven, bladestorm is the big damage dealer. At level eight, anything but power word blind is good, and every level nine spell rocks.

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Mar. 07 2004,10:08)]Irenicious was great, but all the way through the game I was trying to place his voice as it was familiar.
I forget his name, but he's a famous British character actor who's been in a ton of stuff. The one that comes to mind right now is Titanic - he's the security bloke who handcuffs DiCaprio to the ship whilst its sinking.

A word of warning about PS:T spells, at the higher levels they have FFVII-like animation sequences that last for ever. They're pretty cool, but I'm glad I did most of the game as a fighter, cos constantly casting those spells in combat would have got on my nerves.

btw Phantose if the good ending is Spoiler Alert! Highlight to read. where you get to spend eternity fighting in those demon wars (I forget their name) as penance for all the evil he has done in his lives - you get an FMV of TNO picking up a mace and resolutely walking down a hill to join the fray - then I got it when I did the game (ie as a fighter). I gotta say, I was gutted, I wanted sooo badly to be able to start a new life with Annah and put my past lives behind me and love a good, loving mortal life with her. I was totally gutted that I couldn't do that. I really cared for Annah, so brash & feisty, yet in reality so vulnerable and in need of love. A love that *I* TNO could have provided.

And I found her tail incredibly horny. :blush:

[/QUOTE]

[Eastside Character]

I now play BG2 again and I play a single character, a mage, now level 31. I have to say I didnt expect to be so powerful. When my mage casts a spell the ring of Gaxx reflects the spell effects which together with adamantine dust covering the robes (just came from the Underdark) looks great. Then you feel something strange is happening, time is about to stop...

Regards,
EC

[Phatose]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Mar. 07 2004,09:59)]
A word of warning about PS:T spells, at the higher levels they have FFVII-like animation sequences that last for ever. They're pretty cool, but I'm glad I did most of the game as a fighter, cos constantly casting those spells in combat would have got on my nerves.

btw Phantose if the good ending is Spoiler Alert! Highlight to read. where you get to spend eternity fighting in those demon wars (I forget their name) as penance for all the evil he has done in his lives - you get an FMV of TNO picking up a mace and resolutely walking down a hill to join the fray - then I got it when I did the game (ie as a fighter). I gotta say, I was gutted, I wanted sooo badly to be able to start a new life with Annah and put my past lives behind me and love a good, loving mortal life with her. I was totally gutted that I couldn't do that. I really cared for Annah, so brash & feisty, yet in reality so vulnerable and in need of love. A love that *I* TNO could have provided.

And I found her tail incredibly horny. :blush:

[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the higher level spells do have annoying animations, and I rarely used things like Mechanus Cannon or Celestial Host. Fortunately, you rarely have need of them.

As for the ending, all endings include that particular bit - that's the way the game ends. Whether it's the good ending or not is determined by Spoiler Alert! Highlight to read. Whether you merge or destroy the transcendant, and whether you get to save your friends or not.[/QUOTE]

[Mount Suribachi]

I'm pretty sure I got the good ending then.

[frogbeastegg]

:sigh: yup, I need more help. PT was going great, I'm stomping everything and really beginning to get to grips with cloudkill (6 dangerous wyrm things dead in one go, weee) but now the game has fallen apart - I'm down to 2FPS in all areas, unplayable.

Yes this is a tech thing and probably should go in the apothecary, but I thought I'd give it a chance here first as this was a problem with the game engine rather than with the PC it is being played on, all infinity engine games have done this. Problem is I don't remember what the fix was.

Ahem, PT is patched up and running in windows 98 compatibility mode. It has been a perfectly smooth ride until I went into under sigil, then it just died and went to a 2FPS chugfest in every singe area on disc 1 and 2. I remember this happening the first and second times I played PT, always at the same place with the same effects. Both BG games and Icewind Dale 1 also had set points where the game died on most PCs, the game engine is famous for it and there was an equally famous fix...but what was it?

If no one can remember I'll go visit Krae.

[Mount Suribachi]

It was some kind of memory leak and IIRC the solution was to go to the relevant game folder & delete all the files in the Cache folder I think it was. In fact, sometimes you didn't even need to empty the cache, just exiting and reloading was enough to solve the problem.

[frogbeastegg]

Memory leak, that was it. They never did fix it, it was in every single game and it is the main reason I hate the infinity engine. Exiting the game makes no different, I have deleted the contents of torment/cache but still no improvement. 2FPS in all locations and even in the inventory, I'm in the last quarter of the game and it's unplayable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

I think there was another fix, something about fiddling with some setting somewhere...