Crusader Kings

[ŞaoŞin]

any you guys heard about it?
its based on the HoI/Victorian Engine, and made by the same people iirc.

i havent found an official site yet only the forum :(
Official Forums (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=80)
Screenshot Page (http://207.44.246.62/hellzone_Strategy_Crusader_Kings.shtml) (im already loving it)

thoughts?

i think this will be a great game, albeit a hard one to go into :p. HoI took me a while to actually know what i was doing, i hope CK is much easier to learn :)

edit: i guess this is the official site o.o; official site (http://www.strategyfirst.com/games/GameContent.asp?iGameID=35&sLanguageCode=EN&sSection=Overview)

[Scipio]

IM geussing it is around the crusades time? NO thanx MTW is good enough for me I would like to see an ancient one maybe for Alexandarian time and such also a roman one wouldnt hurt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

BTW I must complement you on your sig pic and avatar did you make them yourself?

[ŞaoŞin]

it starts at 1066 to 1453. so its not just the crusades
another good preview (http://pc.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=4512) < read that one. has some pretty interesting stuff.

Quote[/b] ]as game saves will be compatible with Europa Universalis 2, further expanding the history available for that title.
-dude, this means that you can actually play from CK to EU hell maybe even to WW2

edit: yes sir. made em myself just today :p figured id start makin a sig for this here forum since everyones doing it already :p.

[Efrem Da King]

hmm....


I want to buy CK EU2 And V. Play all the way from early middle ages to 1920.

[Alrowan]

people on the Vic forums were talkng about a save game prog that would work from Eu2 and one to work to HoI


As for this game, ill be getting t the moment it ships, think MTW strategy mode, but 10000000x more in depth

[Trax]

I think this is the real official site.

http://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusaderkings.asp

[Basileus]

Havent been overy ipmressed by paradox games but i think i´ll buy this and try it out..

[RisingSun]

followed it for a while, kind of forgot about it. It will be very complicated with all the extreme realistic fuedal relationships, I understand.

[Russian Threat]

I've been tracking this one, as well. Thanks for the link to the screenies, m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Trax]

BTW Crusader Kings went gold few days ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Ivan Bajlo]

As one poster on Paradox forum said...

I was keeping my eye on CK progress until I found out Progress is a name of city in Russia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Paradox has same problems as with many other gaming companies - releasing unfinished games.

Fortunately unlike other they actually keep publishing new patches for a pretty long time and unlike other patches which only fix biggest bugs, they often rework entire game engine so you get completely new gaming experience with each new patch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

And since they make each game so you can mod 90% of things each game should last you at lest two or three years. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Trax]

First CK beta AAR has been posted http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-balloon.gif

The Deeds of Salamon, King of Hungary (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133924)

[ŞaoŞin]

yeah i read that in the forum too.
all i have to say is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Another AAR....

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134743

When you see that and see MTW campaign mode, you can only cry...

Louis,

[Baba Ga'on]

Seems a bit too... accurate to satisfy Activision's year report.



~Wiz

[Alrowan]

i tihnk CA and these guys should team up to make the worlds best strategy game, CA can focus on the battle side, paradox on the campagin mode, and then come up somewhere with both aspects. Id quit my job just to play a game like that

[Russian Threat]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 25 2004,14:48)]i tihnk CA and these guys should team up to make the worlds best strategy game, CA can focus on the battle side, paradox on the campagin mode, and then come up somewhere with both aspects. Id quit my job just to play a game like that
Great idea Forget jobs, I'd quit life just to play a game like that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Trax]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 25 2004,22:48)]i tihnk CA and these guys should team up to make the worlds best strategy game, CA can focus on the battle side, paradox on the campagin mode, and then come up somewhere with both aspects. Id quit my job just to play a game like that
Isn´t going to happen any time soon considering, what Johan had to say (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2670598&postcount=4) about MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[ŞaoŞin]

hehe ouch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif
some ppl there seem to, not like, MTW :p o well.

ill still be playing mtw till CK comes out

[Alrowan]

lol, hes just sayin that cus he couldnt figure out how to fight the battles, he needs the PC to manage that for him

[Alrowan]

well id suggest heading over to this link to see a tonn of screenshots from some lucky guy who got the game b4 its official release HERE (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137643)

aslo there is a new AAR HERE (http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134727)

[Nowake]

The game is awesome. I made a preview in november about it. The diplomacy is the best I ever heard of.

[frogbeastegg]

The more I hear the better it sounds, I'm only just getting to grips with EU2 but CK is practically a game made for me - history, depth, strategy, variety, more history, unlike EU2 it has a setting that really interests me, the only thing missing is MTW style battles. It appears to out do MTW in every respect bar battles, the game even has uglier people than MTW's freaks, beetle browed loons, and princesses with acid burns. This game is officially now on my I want it NOW I have to get this game list, that list has been empty for years.

Anyone know the UK release date? I would guess months away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Oh well, time to exercise my patience...

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 06 2004,12:59)]Anyone know the UK release date? I would guess months away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Oh well, time to exercise my patience...
If you have VISA you can order it directly from Paradox, they guess they will ship it around 24th of April. Seeing that the price for buying it from them (30€) is a lot lower than buying it here in the store (probably 50€) I didn't hesitate. And I'll probably get it a lot earlier then if I wait for the official release date.

[frogbeastegg]

Would the game be in English if I ordered it directly? The game itself probably would be from what I can gather, but what about the manual?

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 06 2004,14:35)]Would the game be in English if I ordered it directly? The game itself probably would be from what I can gather, but what about the manual?
hmm, good question. But I think that will be in english too since they said that the Swedish and UK version of the game are exactly the same. I think that includes the manual. But the manuals paradox produce are usually crap anyway.

[Alrowan]

aparently the manual is ok for this game...

lol

well any manual is better than the victoria one

[Efrem Da King]

rofl You can say that agian mate.

[ShadeFlanders]

Actually I think the EU 1 manual was the worst ever. It was crammed full of historical info (which is nice) but had only a rather sparse description about how to play the game. And the tutorial was long and tedious with no option to save your progress

[ŞaoŞin]

*looks at CK's campaign map*
...
*looks at MTW's campaign map*
...
...
*cries*

[Efrem Da King]

Quote[/b] (ShadeFlanders @ April 07 2004,12:32)]Actually I think the EU 1 manual was the worst ever. It was crammed full of historical info (which is nice) but had only a rather sparse description about how to play the game. And the tutorial was long and tedious with no option to save your progress
Victoria has NO tutorial.

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 08 2004,07:40)]Victoria has NO tutorial.
Yes but the manual alone is still better then the manual + tutorial of EU1 combined. The vicky manual is also very crappy tough.

[Alrowan]

the best manual for any paradox game was the HoI one.. but at 100 odd pages who would bother?

[Baba Ga'on]

I remember spitting through those Zeus, Caesar, Pharaoh, etc manuals... those were big but very well-written.

[frogbeastegg]

As long as a manual is well written I don't care how thick it is. I always read the manual and if it doesn't help or is badly written then it does the game no favours in my eyes.

I went ahead and ordered CK from Paradox; the game is in English only, the developers get more profit, I save wear and tear on my boots trekking about looking for the game in town, I will probably get it a lot earlier (still no date for the UK), and most important of all it is about £10 cheaper even after postage I am guessing the documentation may be in English, after all they do expect you to know enough English to play the game...

[Efrem Da King]

Wrong again. They exept YOU to know enough english to be able to play the game.

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 08 2004,12:01)]Wrong again. They exept YOU to know enough english to be able to play the game.
I don't follow... Also again?

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 08 2004,11:24)]...I am guessing the documentation may be in English, after all they do expect you to know enough English to play the game...
Citaat[/b] (EfremDaKing @ April 08 2004,11:24)] They exept YOU to know enough english to be able to play the game.

lol, Efrem, what are you smoking?

[The Scourge]

Apparently ,the game's already in some stores in Denmark.
Think I might just take look later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Some great AAR's.A good AAR writer can make a game sound ten times better than it really is ,although I'm sure it'll be a great game anyway.

[ŞaoŞin]

those danes... *raises fist in anger*

[The Scourge]

Quote[/b] (Ky Kiske @ April 08 2004,11:00)]those danes... *raises fist in anger*
Believe me mate.Where I live 'I'm usually about a month or two behind the rest of the world.
That's why ,this time I've got to jump up a brag about it 'because it's not that often I get the chance.
So http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Efrem Da King]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 08 2004,07:19)]Quote[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 08 2004,12:01)]Wrong again. They exept YOU to know enough english to be able to play the game.
I don't follow... Also again?
Always the recriminations... But where is the praise???

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 09 2004,03:01)]Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 08 2004,07:19)]Quote[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 08 2004,12:01)]Wrong again. They exept YOU to know enough english to be able to play the game.
I don't follow... Also again?
Always the recriminations... But where is the praise???
Recriminations...praise...on/to what/who?

So still http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Efrem Da King]

I'm just messing with your head mate.



Revenge for you moving my game related thread to a forum where I couldn't post in it anymore.



But I think that you have learned your lesson.

[Efrem Da King]

NOT MOOOOHAHAHHAA

[frogbeastegg]

Have you been eating pep pills again Efrem? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_jumping.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Now back to your regularly scheduled CK. A new AAR (or at least one new to me but since I don't look at the AArs very often that is not hard) The House of de Hauteville (http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134727).

[Efrem Da King]

hmm I think that CK will be too complicated to be fun. It depends on the interface. Victorias inerface is something that you have to Get around to enjoy the game.

[ŞaoŞin]

but then all paradox games are like that :). not for your average gamer to play.

[noodle]

Am I right in saying that CK also has a multiplayer campaign mode? Something that CA have been avoiding so much that I'm now sure they're just doing it out of spite.

I'd buy it for that alone

[The Scourge]

Quote[/b] (noodle @ April 12 2004,08:27)]Am I right in saying that CK also has a multiplayer campaign mode? Something that CA have been avoiding so much that I'm now sure they're just doing it out of spite.

I'd buy it for that alone
I'd love to play a grand strategy game on-line.
Has anyone here actually had any success playing a game like EU ,or Civ on-line?
I've tried to find on-line games of both Spartans and Lords of the Realm 3 this weekend ,on game spy ,but so far no luck.

[Voigtkampf]

Guess I'll get a copy of it soon, maybe tomorrow; it will probably have to wait for me until the end of the week, because I'm once more due for some field trip. God knows I avoided it for almost a month But when I get around to it, I guess I'll make a review for the org as well, if it's not way too old by then

[frogbeastegg]

My preordered copy has arrived just this morning Weee A whole week before it is supposed to be reaching people Now to play and take screenshots, if anyone sees a frogbeastegg running about the Paradox forums that is me. Any screenshot requests here?

[Efrem Da King]

hmmm.....







CAN YOU PLAY WARS OF THE ROSES????


IF so get me picture of britain if not then get me pic of russia.








Please.

[Alrowan]

hmm, well ive seen a tonn of pics on the forums, most satiate what i desire, but what i want to know now is how complex the menue systems are, are they counter-intuitive like vicky, or easy to learn like EU2?

[frogbeastegg]

No war of the Roses in the default scenarios, there is only Hastings 1066 start, The Third Crusade 1187 start, and Hundred Years War 1337 start. The Hastings start is misleading because it starts in Jan 1066 with William already on the throne with the Godwinsons as his loyal vassals #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif Pics of Rusia coming up...

So far I have played for about #an hour, skim read the manual, and flipped through the quick in-game tips and I have managed well enough. It took me months to get anywhere with EU2, I've not played Vicky, but in CK I have already conquered Wales, handed lands off to a vassal, appointed advisors, proposed and dealt with diplomatic marriages, educated a couple of royal sprogs, hit someone with a trout, run out of manure in several locations resulting in a slump in farming, and sent death threats to a 2 year old king who refused to bend the knee like a good brat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif Now I get to start a new game, becasue the patch invalidated my old save game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[The Scourge]

Read two reviews.One on Strategy Games On-Line really loves it ,and another that I can't remember where hates it ,but I think it's more because he can't get it to run well on his machine.
On thing that concerns me a little ,is that a few are saying it's a little too easy.
No offense frogbeastegg ,I'm sure you're a good player anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Efrem Da King]

Well if you can't play wars of the roses then what sort of game is it???


How good are cannons


I want to got and blow the sh*t out of people MTW style

(a fav tactic of Richard the 3rd, unfortunatly his cannons were facing the wrong way at bosworth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif )

[Trax]

Quote[/b] ]The Hastings start is misleading because it starts in Jan 1066 with William already on the throne with the Godwinsons as his loyal vassals

I read, that they are going to change this soon, the scenario will have new startdate (after Hastings)

[frogbeastegg]

Cannons? Well so far the newly discovered short bow is considered the high of cool technology. In 1066 literally everything is left to research, people don't even know about simple things like clothing. I will try and play around with a later scenario as Russia to find out about cannons and take some screenshots.

So far the game is quite easy, but then I am playing on easy since I had a lot of trouble learning EU2, I'll ramp the difficulty up when I load my savegame. In my England 1066/mark 2 game I have conquered Wales, have tonnes of gold, all of my vassals are 100% loyal, no one has declared war on me or even sent hate mail, built all the economic upgrades available in my own provinces and watched my vassals do likewise. It is now 1078 and England is at peace, the only problem is the fact the heir to the throne looks like a pig crossed with the back end of a donkey No wonder his poor young wife has gone all 'ecclesiastical' recently with a few 'chaste' traits to boot

[the Count of Flanders]

hmm, I hope my copy has arrived when I get home from work

[Baba Ga'on]

Well, the AARs and you guys are making me interested in this game... would be the first time I've ever played a game like this so I think I might give it a go http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz

[frogbeastegg]

To further the point of difficulty in my second English 1066 game it is now 1091 and I am king of England, Scotland and France, controlling Wales (no king of Wales title that I can find) with 51 vassals France is a massive country and I laid it out in a single blow, just beat up the personal army of the king and lay siege to his castle until it fell. I then used 775 prestige to call myself king of France and forced the 'king' in the ruins of his castle to recognise me as the rightful king. I gained more than 2000 prestige, 30 vassals and a few new lands for my king to play with in his demesne - crazy

Don't ask how I ended up fighting France, long story involving them doing something obscene with the vassal I had controlling York, getting him on their vassal list instead of mine. So being the nice king I am I demanded Mr. York returned, when he politely told me to go to hell I declared I had a claim on the title and marched to war. France and Brittany were so friendly with their fair weather chum they declared war on me, so I mobilised all my armies and a few vassals and the rest is history. Way too easy, the Hundred Years War over before it can even begin, a huge country conquered with one battle and a siege, and the Norman conquest re-enacted in reverse. The only bad side effect is that I now have a 'rather bad reputation'. Oh, I forgot to add that somehow I have been controlling the Pope for the last 3 years. I can smash up entire countries in one blow, but can I persuade anyone to be my vassal peacefully? Nope, I've not figured that one out yet... It’s rather pathetic, my king with his three crowns and list of titles longer than his arm asking a one man band in a crappy backwater island (Isle of Man) to be his vassal and being refused. How can this puny weakling say no to the ruler of such a massive kingdom with great big armies, Papal support and more cash than a very cash rich person?

I think I shall really have to ramp difficulty up a notch or twelve. That and finish reading the manual, there must be a way to check vassal relations quickly, now I have 51 to check it is painful to go through them individually.

If any of this sounds negative, well it is a fun game and with more learning, higher difficulty and a few more patches to tweak I think it will become even better. I’m waiting for the Crusades era to kick in, research to really get flying, and life to generally become more interesting as time rolls on.

The music is a bit…odd, I’ve identified Carmen’s Toreador song, and Ieda (spelling is probably wrong for both), the rest is quite similar. Not bad, but it doesn’t quite mesh with the game’s atmosphere sometimes.

Pictures of Russia taken and added to the Arena space, just waiting for them to transfer over...hmm, I suppose I can do that myself. Even in a 1337 start I could find nothing to do with cannons, they aren't mentioned in the manual either.

[frogbeastegg]

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/games/frogbeasteggCKRussia.jpg
Russia in 1337, Russia is the big purple blob at the top of the screen. Part of the empire won't fit on screen so the final province is in the screenshot below. I have no idea what the fancy sword/flag arrangement means, I took this screenshot as Germany since the Russians weren't visilbe on the choose a kingdom list, they are probably squirreled away in the count or duke lists instead, since you don't have to play as a king.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/games/frogbeasteggCKRussia2.jpg
Yes, that isolated purple blob is the final part of Russia that won't fit onscreen with everything else

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/games/frogbeasteggCKEng1.jpg
This is England in 1066. The Creepy looking man in the top right corner is king William the Bastard

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/games/frogbeasteggCKEng2.jpg
This is England in 1091 in my current game. The new king is Richard, the one who's wife went all celebate and chaste...look at that portrait and you can understand why Note that the kingdom is now shaded in brighter orange than before, picture 1 was taken before the patch was applied, picture 2 after. The big crusifix under king Ugly's picture means I control the Pope, and in CK you can actually control him - excommunicate and recommunicate at will, so long as your pet Pope has more prestige than your chosen target. The two brown provinces slap bang in the middle of my French empire are:
On the right side: The old king of France is his old capital, which I didn't get even as a vassal for some reason...
On the left side: Some annoying province having a private war with my other lords, now my vassals. Again I don't know why I didn't get this province with the rest of France as they are French vassals...

[ŞaoŞin]

omfg...*faints*

[The Scourge]

But you'll never take our FREEDOM

[Efrem Da King]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif If there aren't cannons then I ain't getting the game

[ŞaoŞin]

ok 1st of all this is not in any way like TW series. so you wont command individual units but rather armies.

to my knowledge cannons werent invented on 1066...

[Efrem Da King]

Yes I know all that. I have HOI and Victoria and have played EU2.


While cannons weren't around in 1066 they were in 1337

[Trax]

According to FAQ the highest siege equipment invention is trebuchet.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139359

[Efrem Da King]

So cannons aren't in the game in way shape or form....

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Is this like MTW, where you can command armies on a tactical level, or is all of the combat abstract?

[The Scourge]

Abstract.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Ah, right. Still, I may buy it.

Efrem, if you can't actually see them blow chunks out of people, what's the big deal about cannons?

[Efrem Da King]

Well you can imagine them blowing chunks out of people... Thats what I do with victoria.

[Lehesu]

Quote[/b] (Efrem Da King @ April 17 2004,08:10)]Well you can imagine them blowing chunks out of people... Thats what I do with victoria.
Victoria the game, right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

I am interested in this game,shame you can't play the muslims(or the mongols),but i'm interested in the feudal system,i hear you can manage armies and the units are more than EU2's infantry,cavalry and seige,there are horse archers and the sorts although i know the battles are abstract i'm still interested.Also if possible i'd like to see a picture of the domain of the byzantines.and i'd like to know wether you can control the pope if your the byznatines or not.and one last thing is it possible to play as a small vassal country?

[ŞaoŞin]

ya its sad you cant play muslims, i think your also cant play byzantines since they fuction differently from the christian nations.
i have no doubt paradox could do it but it will be delayed for atleast another 6 months i think.

byzantines were orthodox right? so why would the pope even think of doing that?...well it is a game but still :p

yes from my knowledge you can play as a vassal :)


hey frostbeastegg, can you post a picture of the whole europe? with the political thingy on? not sure if there is something like that.

[Leet Eriksson]

They only said mongols,muslim and merchant leagues are not playable you sure byzantium is not playable?,i hope they ain't a merchant league,becuase nothing beats kicking muslim,pagan,and catholic ass like the Byzantines.Pity if i can't play them...although i know the russians are playable,they are orthodox as far as my knowledge goes on the eastern european region....

[ŞaoŞin]

yes but the russians were more feudal than byzantine politics...err you get what im saying?

[Leet Eriksson]

Ah well,guess i'll try playing someone else,just not playing the byzantines is pushing it far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Baba Ga'on]

The Byzantine system of pronoai set by Alexius I was quite feudal. So if Russia can be played, so must Byzantium be playable.

I really think I'm gonna buy this game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif



~Wiz

[frogbeastegg]

You can play as the emperor of Byzantium, but not any of the Arab/Horde nations. I can't find Russia (or Novgorad as it is called) on the playable list either, but that list is very long and split into 3 parts. You can play as a king (obvious) a duke (under a king, so you are a vassal, but you can claim independence and make counts/dukes your vassals and slowly build up to a crown) or count (lowest, is a vassal to either a king or duke, again you can make others your vassals and climb to a higher perch).

Units in armies are: knights, light cavalry, horse archer (Arab/Horde only), archers (both shortbow, longbow and crossbow types), heavy infantry (you can research swords, maces and axes), pikemen, light infantry.

Picture of the Byzantine empire, also one of thw whole world, I'll see what I can do. The world will have to be taken in several pictures since it is massive.

You can control the Pope if you are Catholic; the Pope's closest blood relative always controls him. I am not sure if Byzantium can control him or not, I'd guess not because they aren't Catholic unless something unexpected has happened to their religion.

To get back to the point of difficulty I shall change my mind slightly on how easy the game is. There is this tiny 'problem' (not a bug, more a stupid design decision in the eyes of many on the Paraodx forums) that vassals will rebel. Fine, expected, just go conquer them and take back what is rightfully yours. Except doing that gives you a load of BB points, so more vassals rebel. There is no way to claim back lost lands without going to a full blown ‘unprovoked’ war, if someone rebels you have to smile and let them go, except that harms your prestige so other vassals start to rebel. Try to fight rebellion and you lose, try to ignore it and you lose, try to prevent it...well eventually someone will rebel. So while I can go conquer France without too many problems with manufactured claims and a lot of fake stuff, but I can't claim back my own lands granted to disloyal vassals with a genuine claim because it costs too much in BB. Pathetic. What kind of king ever allowed rebellions to go uncountered?

Also diplomacy is lacking, unless there is something hidden deep in the interface and not in the not so helpful manual. There is no way to improve your relationship with anyone, so offering marriage seldom works, offering vassalisation has never worked for me. There is also no way to see how a person views you unless they hold land in your domain, so if I want to see if the king of France is friendly or not tough luck. Compared to EU2 diplomacy is unbearably simplistic. You can:
-fake claim on a title (prepare for war)
-declare war (if you have a claim on a title)
-offer marriage (seldom works)
-offer vassalisation (never works)
-offer peace (if at war obviously Very limited options, either you force them to recognise your claim, do nothing for white peace, recognise their claim and that is it, you can also ask for gold but who cares about that?)

So even if you do go to war on your ex-vassal to take back what is yours you will get a BB hit for going after him even though you are given a legitimate claim on his title (the claim allows you to declare war, it does not protect you from BB), you beat him in battle and subdue him totally, go to the negotiating table and all you can do is recognise his claim and let him go, white peace letting him go (two options for losing essentially) or demand his lands for yourself (huge BB hit, only way to get your land back). There is no option to let him swear allegiance again and continue to hold the land under you, no option to demand he gives the title to a heir to serve under you, no option to demand hostages for his good behaviour, no option to arrange dynastic marriages, in short nothing outisde of two lose options and a win that is more of a lose. To make matters even worse taking his land usually puts you over your demesne limit so you lose money and efficiency until you give it to someone else Usually about this point someone else will rebel.

So once someone rebels it is essentially game over. Prevent rebellions is the obvious solution, but how? No way to improve relations with gifts, titles do nothing (I gave Robert, brother to William the Bastard, the title of Duke of Cornwall when his loyalty dropped, but he just hated me even more), marriage to your family may help but they often refuse and it gives them claims on your throne as well as wasting a valuable resource and making me feel terrible. All you can really do is keep scutage tax low and keep your rep clean, but that is not exactly possible and it takes forever for loyalty to improve at those settings. By the time Robert has worked his way from 'disloyalty incarnate 0.0' to 'devotedly loyal 100.0' he will have rebelled...let's see it would take 20 months to go from 0.0 to 100.0 assuming you charged no scutage and nothing bad happened. Vassals can leave you at 50.0 loyalty, it is not hard for loyalty to drop that low almost over night with no warning. Even worse it is so hard to check loyalty, you have to go around clicking on each and every shield in your realm to get the readout for that particular noble

Also on the point of loyalty and rebellions changing any law immediately drops vassal’s loyalty to 0.0, so it is a worthless option since it is as good as clicking ‘surrender’.

A good game, but this aspect really needs work.

Oh, and since the interface was mentioned a while back it is mostly ok but some thing are hidden away or illogical. If someone has a title in your realm and you want to give them another you have to click on their shield to call up their court screen, then assign the title from there. If someone does not already have a title you just click on your own court screen and choose to assign a title, anyone with an existing title is missing from the list which made me think it was impossible to give more than one title to someone until I found the solution by accident.

Anyway I have started a new game as England; that previous one died because a single lowly French count rebelled (expected and understandable, I could have survived it easily) and that triggered the endless cycle of destruction I outlined above. I have played a few other games since then, but they all died in rebellions because I couldn’t get my land back without a lot of BB, but nor could I let it go. I’d like to add that those last games were peaceful; I didn’t go and conquer Wales, Scotland and France so rebellion cannot be blamed on that. I have now given up on changing laws, as it is impossible to survive, quite why the option is there when it is unusable is a mystery.

Well at least the loyalty of your vassals is historically accurate, even if the inability to repress them isn’t #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

OH YEAH BABYByzantium here i come

(just incase for the indelicate ears:i'm ordering the game online,and NOW)

[Voigtkampf]

Oops, I was away this week and didn't have time to check arena screenshots for any entries - not that there are many of them, anyway - so it was good that you did it yourself, Lady frogbeastegg. I'll let you know when I start off next time, but this was just for some three, four days, so I didn't bother.

I don't know who messed up, FedEx or UPS, I only know that I still do not have my promised copy of Crusader Kings Oh, well, our fair princess has submitted almost enough material for a decent review herself, so I won't do anything like that myself - I see a fair sense of doing a review only if the game is still fresh and unknown to most of the people.

BTW, hands away from a RTS called War Times. I mean it.

I'll be getting the Battle for Troy this evening (this one is confirmed), so I might post a review of that baby instead.

[Efrem Da King]

What is it????

[Voigtkampf]

What is what? #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Battle for Troy?

Click me just the way I like it… (http://www.valu-soft.com/products/troy.html)

[frogbeastegg]

One world map of CK in 1066, cobbled together by a frog and paint shop pro:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/games/frogbeasteggckworldmap.jpg

It's massive on screen, the place names are not readable, but it will load quickly. The map is in realm mode, so each colour is a different kingdom, it should be simple enough to spot the countries you are interested in on it.

As far as reviews for CK go, well I don't think the game is in any fit state to be reviewed yet. I don't mean it crashes a lot or has a load of bugs, more that the manual is bad, the tutorial is worse, and a lot needs tweaking by 'enhancement' patches that were supposed to be simultaneous with the release but the game is out earlier than Paraodx intended. I don't exactly like the idea, but since those patches are mostly to fix issues like William being king of England in Jan 1066 with the Godwinsons as his vassals I can be tolerant, if it was a bug fixing frenzy I would be most displeased. It is a good game, it is worth getting, but it really needs patching and some time to learn before a fair review can be given.

[The Scourge]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,06:18)]What is what? #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Battle for Troy?

Click me just the way I like it… (http://www.valu-soft.com/products/troy.html)
Agamemnon lead the Greeks ,who are wearing Corinthian helmets about 2 thousand years too soon ,and fighting skeletons no less.
Still let's know how it goes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (The Scourge @ April 18 2004,09:57)]Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,06:18)]What is what? #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Battle for Troy?

Click me just the way I like it… (http://www.valu-soft.com/products/troy.html)
Agamemnon lead the Greeks ,who are wearing Corinthian helmets about 2 thousand years too soon ,and fighting skeletons no less.
So, what's your point? #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[The Scourge]

Don't really know.Just doesn't look all that from the screen shots.
Anyway this the first i've heard of the game ,and there's only a few screen shots.
From the box it looks a bit AoE's ,but I'm curious to know what you think after playing it so do please gives us a review .

[Voigtkampf]

LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one. #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Baba Ga'on]

I must say, if what froggy says is true, with such limited feudal options and diplomatical options, this game is not as interesting as it was at first glance. I think I'll wait for a few more patches to come... keep me updated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



~Wiz

[The Scourge]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,11:19)]LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one. #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well you got me sussed then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
But as for the game .I've tried doing a search ,but I can't get much info at all.
Don't they have a site somewhere?

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 18 2004,06:29)]not a bug, more a stupid design decision in the eyes of many on the Paraodx forums
This is why I stopped playing Paradox games, however enjoyable they are. The devs just don't let you (me) enjoy the game. You just have to play it the way they intended it, and every new patch further restricts your options. The explanation is that e.g. EU2 was not a world conquest game. Well, what if I want it to be? That's what the customization is for after all. If I want to play without BB points, why not let me do so, and conquer the world as a German minor? Leave the BB system in for those who want to make their lives difficult, but allow it to be disabled for those who have a different idea of fun, which doesn't include artificial obstacles. And the patches just up the difficulty, create less of a laid-back game, and are generally put forward by people who are so jaded with regular gameplay that they need new challenges. Yes, their continued support is great, and the games have immense replayablilty, but eventually I just got fed up by exiting the game and editing the save file every time I annexed some fool who attacked me, just so that I would be even able to play around with diplomatic options (arguably the best thing about the EU engine). And that's even not mentioning all the cheating the AI does. Similar to the total war stage of the TW games, when the whole world attacks you eventually, and very anticlimactic - you are in fact getting punished for being successful.

Thanks for the review, froggy.

[Efrem Da King]

If you want world conquest get vitoria

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (The Scourge @ April 18 2004,17:29)]Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ April 18 2004,11:19)]LoL, I mean really In this attempt of subtle humor with hidden allusion to R:TW and, to a certain part of dedicated fans, an unacceptable introduction of historically inaccurate units, I think I didn't use the proper smiley. It should have been this one. #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well you got me sussed then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
But as for the game .I've tried doing a search ,but I can't get much info at all.
Don't they have a site somewhere?
Crusader Kings link (http://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusaderkings.asp)

Battle for Troy link (http://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusaderkings.asp)

Wasn't sure to which game that was referred to, so…

Just got my copy of Battle for Troy last night, this evening I'll grind my teeth into it.

[the Count of Flanders]

Just a word of warning to anyone thinking about buying this game (I have it since friday), it is still very buggy. The AI does some pretty stupid stuff: like the king of france mobilising all his vassals only to do absolutely nothing with those armies for years on end untill his vasals rebel and kick his ass.

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ April 18 2004,18:10)]...you are in fact getting punished for being successful.
You see, it's full of realism. But I'm sure they'll fix the BB for smacking down disloyal vasals.

[Sinan]

Thanks for that image Froggy. Looks very detailed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (the Count of Flanders @ April 19 2004,07:28)]Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ April 18 2004,18:10)]...you are in fact getting punished for being successful.
You see, it's full of realism.
Yes, but what I'm saying is that I have enough of that in real life. From a game, I prefer a pat on the back. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Well I found out a bit more about all that strage Victorian brass band music in CK - it's from Vicky and is never actually used in game. This does beg the question of why it ends up in the CK music folder in the first place... Anyway I'm fed up of the bare handful (about 8 repeating endlessly)of grandiose wannabe medieval tracks that actually do play in the game, so I'm going to stick my own music in. That just leaves the problem of finding some decent medievalish music, I've got 5 very short tracks and could use about another 20. Something with a bit of bounce to it, if everything sounds like 'there is no rose of such virtue' I'll get depressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

hrvojej you will doubtlessly be pleased to hear that many on the CK forums are calling for conquest to be made so hard it is barely worth while or even possible on a semi-large scale. Oh joy. I don't see why they can't leave it so you can go forge an empire if you want to, even if it is inaccurate historically. If they set inheritance laws up that prevent situations like Matilda inheriting the throne of England and other big accuracy crimes why not allow players to create a nice empire or two if they want? If conquest is made as hard as some people want the Normans would never even have got to England, let alone conquered it. You can't even have regents, that 2 year old boy does actually run his dukedom himself, with the same help from his court as an adult. No fair - I was planning to set up a good queen as regent because her dear husband had an 'accident' while jumping out of the 6th floor window of his tower

Peace is all very well, but it's nice to let loose the dogs of war very occasionally. Besides there are only so many marriages you can arrange before you begin to feel voyeuristic. Even worse you do find yourself wondering what the heck is the matter with your son and heir when he can't produce a child after 4 years of marriage to some relatively pretty young thing, and not even a bastard child with someone else I swear he must be interested in boys or something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif I mean the problem isn't her because of that little accident with a 'friend', resulting in a dear little boy who is a natural leader and I'm grooming him to be my future Marshall. Maybe the problem is that he looks so ugly he should be required by law to have a bag over his head at all times, even the most ambitious woman in the realm would run screaming from this prince http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif It took ages to find the guts to search out a wife for him in the first place, poor dear has my utmost sympathy Well I did get my pet Pope to excommunicate her cruel father who agreed to the match, so that's some slight comfort maybe. Now if the inheritance laws were more realistic for England I could just kill him and his wife would inherit because he has no son, bah

:froggy goes off and cries, her dreams of being Eleanor of Aquitaine and Matilda and setting up a alternate version of history where they won their civil wars, and then another game of conquering the UK, France and Holy Land to forge an English empire in tatters, but with a few dynastic births to hope for but only in a way not involving that fat twerp getting within 20 miles of his unfortunate wife who has suffered enough already:

[The Scourge]

Can't really make a judgment on CK yet ,maybe a bit of tweaking here and there is in order.
But if when I was playing EU , I could go and conquer at will with no consequences ,the game would have been off my hard drive in no time at all.
Most of the fun came in playing the political game ,and trying to manufacture a CB , getting around the BB rating.
Don't see it as a punishment for being successful .You're being punished because you're seen as a threat to world peace and stability.

[Baba Ga'on]

So if I take it right this game doesn't have the deep gameplay the AAR's want you to believe is there?



~Wiz

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 20 2004,15:57)]So if I take it right this game doesn't have the deep gameplay the AAR's want you to believe is there?



~Wiz
I haven't really read the AARs, just the Lion in Winter. It does have depth, but at the same time it doesn't. Some aspects like warfare and diplomacy are rather skimpy, but others like your characters and dynasty are incredibly detailed.

I feel no matter what I say I think I will be both selling the game short and making it sound too good. Let me say that this is a disapointing game, but becasue it is merely really good instead of amazingly great, rather than because it is crap. It is disapointing in the same way MTW was disapointing - becasue you can see where a bit more polish and work would have made it sparkle like nothing else available right now. I'll post a copy of my wish list for the next patch, that pretty well sums up what I don't like or think needs work. I've added a few notes in italic brackets to cover the gap between forums.

1. Vassals and BB - we need to be able to repress rebellions without the situation spiralling out of control.

2. Women inheriting - I was looking forward to building a scenario based on the civil war between Matilda and Stephan with an eye to her winning and becoming queen, that is currently impossible. Ditto controlling Eleanor of Aquitaine and raising hell. It shouldn’t be common to have queens, but it should be possible in a few countries at least. England needs it for historical reasons. Women need to be able to inherit titles and thrones, but only as a last resort kind of thing, if the husband dies and has no children then in England the holdings went to the wife. Marrying widows for their lands was a valid practise back then, and it would be good to have in the game. Maybe if in the case of the crown it would only go to a woman if there were no children, grandchildren or brothers of the dead king, making queens possible but incredibly unlikely…something similar would work for other titles and holdings. Of course in the interests of accuracy a queen would have a big problem with loyalty until she was firmly established…

3. Marriage - something needs to be done to make this easier to arrange, in the information and interface side anyway. (popular request, basically make it easier to find prospective spouses, easier to send the proposal, easier to track the results, but not to make it easier to make the AI agree to marriage)

4. Relations with other countries/people - can we get some kind of feedback on whether they like us or not? In EU2 you can tell that France hates you for that last war, in CK you can only guess and this makes arranging marriages etc harder IMO. If someone hates me they will not let me marry their darling daughter, but how can I know if they hate me or not without feedback?

5. The crusade piety penalty feels a little steep to me, needing to crusade is good, but being forced into nearly endless war is bad. Of course I haven't done much crusading so far… (penalty for me currently is -4 piety per month I lose that even while fighting, for about 50 years of game time You gain piety back by conquering and winning in peace treaties, so basically while the crusade mode is in effect you *have* to fight almost non-stop because piety is vital - it makes your BB go down)

6. Performance - I'm playing on a great PC (P4 2.4, Radeon 9800 pro, 1GB RAM etc) and it is very slow and jerky, even at the start of the 1066 game. Only one CTD so far though.

7. More diplomatic options - I want to send gifts to people to improve my relations with them, just like in EU2. I also want other ways to end wars, apart from me losing (i.e. gaining nothing), gaining gold, or me taking their titles and getting hit by lots of BB. How about offering to let the person become your vassal but keep his lands etc, they will start with low loyalty and you only get a medium BB hit, similar to in EU2. Also possibly include marriage in the peace deals (My son marries your daughter, you give me 500 gold and become my vassal. In return I stop killing your armies and protect you. Fair?)

8. BB score - can we have it listed in numbers as well as text? Similar to in EU2.

9. Improve the tool tips - show the actual effects of traits. (again a popular request)

10. Can we have some kind of family tree? Something that shows your entire dynasty in one screen, rather than having to hunt around character screens to find out if Robert de Normanie (3rd with that name) is royal or not.

11. Removing children from the court screen sounds great, it breaks my heart to find a great steward only to find she is 0 years old and useless.

12. Vassalisation by diplomacy - I would ask if it is even possible but I have seen people talking about success with it. It never works for me, I don't know why or what I need to do to make it work. Showing relations and allowing diplomatic gift would make it easier to understand this aspect of the game, but if they can't be included can we at least get some idea of how this works via a tool tip?

13. Assassination - can we have some idea of how likely an attempt is to succeed or not? Something either as a percentage (We have a 22% chance of killing this character) or as a statement (It seems unlikely our attempt will succeed).

14. The events (call estates general, marriage duty of eldest daughter etc) - can we have a little more background on them? Just some idea sketched out in a few sentences as to what is happening, EU2 has this and it would really improve the atmosphere of the game.

15. Group peace and individual peace - sounds great, just like in EU2. (people are asking for ways to include your vassals in peace treaties, right you peace only applies to you so your vassal will keep fighting.)

16. Bastards - I too have only seen male bastards, can we have some female ones too? Also is it just men who can have bastards or can women have them too? I think I saw a woman with a bastard son but I'm not sure... Anyway all things fair in love and war (well not in war ), and women having bastards would add considerably to the game since this caused quite a few storms in history when the heir to the throne turned out to look more like the jester than the king.

17. Armies - please let us disband the whole army in one go as well as individually (very popular, right now you disband regiment by regiment and when you have 5 regiments in a large army...)

18. All those message/history logging requests - agreed, there is so much going on that is unreported, or can slip past you if you blink during a busy time in the event log. (asking for more messages to genorate pop ups, event log entries, history log entries)

19. A screen or overlay that shows you the loyalty of all your vassals - for the love of all that's holy please let us monitor loyalty easily PLEASE I spend so long moving around clicking on shields just to see if people hate me... (again popular request)

20. A screen that shows all the provinces in your realm, how much they earn, who owns them (you, vassal, which character), what they are building, current state of army (levied or not, how many men, what kind of soldiers, location). An at a glance state of your kingdom, basically.

21. Traits - um, a character can have opposing traits and that's a bit crazy. I had a lustful, chaste king (sound like another game we know?)

22. Changing inheritance laws - basically it is next to impossible unless you are a tiny realm. Where is the point in being able to change them if changing the law destroys your realm by default? A big loyalty hit/penalty is needed, but -100% loyalty is way too steep to be practical.

23. Can we have a message when someone comes of age please? That way we know we have someone to marry, grant lands to, and use as an advisor. Likewise a message for people joining/leaving our court.

24. Can the message for people dying/inheriting be made a bit clearer please? It is often hard to tell which character the message is talking about – in my current game I have 2 Anselm de Normanies and at least 3 William de Normadies.

25. Assassins - please touch up the assassins so you don't get heavily clobbered for being successful. Coupled with some feedback on how likely the attempt is this should make assassination a valuable, but not over powered tool. Although perhaps a small increase in the amount of gold it costs would be a good thing.




An update on my crappy son and his lovely young wife - they did have a child after about 9 years, but he died before he was even a year old. The bastard I thought she had, well the boy didn't have the bastard trait but there was no father listed in his profile, so what he was and who is father was is a mystery. He died too, illness at the age of 10.

An example of what this game can do when everything falls into place: I noticed my king was second in line to inherit an old duke, second behind a boy of 1. I sent an assassin to kill the boy so I would be the sole heir, the first assassin failed but the second succeeeded. I was now sole hier, and the old buffer obligingly died of old age just over 2 years later. I inherited a dukedom consisting of 2 provinces without any fighting or title grabbing, however I still gained BB points for killing the boy. Now if this kind of thing could bre done more often it would be incredible, but sadly most people have 6+ heirs and my king is not one of them. Also the BB and piety #hits you would get from killing that many hiers would be worse than the amount you would get by conquering by force.

Scourge in response to your point about playing a political game in EU2 I would have to agree - that is most of the fun. However it is nice to go crazy from time to time and conquer Europe. In a game with good balance and options both approaches should be present and viabale, that way you can choose which you want. In a game called total war you know not to expect too much peace, but in EU2 the game is built in such a way to handle both if allowed. Personally I haven't found BB a problem in EU2 while conquering, but I haven't played all that much. In CK BB is crippling, and in CK the focus is more firmly on fighting than it ever was in EU2.

[Rosacrux]

Have you got the first patch that's out? I am planning on investing my money on this game (it does sound promising...) and I really care about your detailed opinion on it.

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, I have the 1.1 patch and I have played both 1.0 and 1.1 at some point. Both versions have their own advantages and disadvantages as far as raw 'fun' goes, but I would say overall 1.1 is a big step in the right direction. Hmm, how to sum this up?

This is a £25 game rather than a £35 game, well worth getting and with a lot of potential, but the less you pay the happier you will be and not just for reasons of economy. It needs work, there is a lot that has to be done before the game meets the potential it has, I spend much of my time when playing it wishing for some feature, tweak, addition, fix but the important thing is I am still playing, when I am writing my beginner's guide update I am planning things to try in CK. I am actually posting on the CK forums about what to include in a patch to improve the game - that in a way says it all. Did I ever post about the assorted MTW/VI patches and what needed adding? No, because although MTW needs a lot doing to it in my eyes the game is not worth the effort. CK is.

If those 25 points listed above are addressed this will be the best strategy game I have ever played hands down. As it stands with 1.1 it is in the top tier along with MTW in the so good, but if only they would do this it would be amazing

[The Scourge]

Well Paradox do have a reputation when it comes to supporting their games ,and it's not unusual for one of their games to be patched at least about four or five times before they really start to shine.
the good news is that the patches usually come pretty fast.

[frogbeastegg]

How fast roughly? I know their good reputation, but the only other Paradox game I have is EU2 and that was on patch 1.7 when I finally found a copy. How soon can I expect 1.2?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Victoria was out in November and is now at 1.03 (1.03 was out in February).

For TW fan that's really fast... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Louis,

[The Scourge]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ April 21 2004,08:02)]Victoria was out in November and is now at 1.03 (1.03 was out in February).

For TW fan that's really fast... #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Louis,
Yeah that sounds about right ,so don't lose faith.

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (The Scourge @ April 20 2004,08:19)]But if when I was playing EU , I could go and conquer at will with no consequences ,the game would have been off my hard drive in no time at all.
Just to clarify: a small option to click before you start a new game BB points on/off is what I'm talking about, just like you have difficulty, aggressiveness, and whatnot settings. You could still play the game you want, while I could also play a game of conquest if/when I felt so inclined. It doesn't detract from the game at all, on the contrary - unlike the restrictive thinking it adds to the game, and it exhibits a far more tolerant view than everybody will play the game I want, or else. This is the kind of design decision I cannot fathom.

edit: And you do have plenty of consequences anyway: revolts, lowered income, war exhaustion, increased stability hits and costs, etc. Not to metnion that the AI cheats many of those, so they are essentialy there to hamper the player specifically.

[Voigtkampf]

Finally, finally got the game, but I'm too tired to go for an install. Off to get my due four hours of sleep. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ April 21 2004,07:24)]How fast roughly? I know their good reputation, but the only other Paradox game I have is EU2 and that was on patch 1.7 when I finally found a copy. How soon can I expect 1.2?
Good reputation? They constantly bring out games that are bug-ridden and that aren't really playable till the 3rd-4th patch. I always feel like I am paying to be a beta tester. Vicky v1.3 is still unplayable IMO due to a very nasty pop income bug that messes up the whole economic model.
Still I'm having fun with CK, but I should have waited for another 6 months to buy it because by then it will be a great game (probably).

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (the Count of Flanders @ April 22 2004,07:23)]Good reputation? They constantly bring out games that are bug-ridden and that aren't really playable till the 3rd-4th patch. I always feel like I am paying to be a beta tester. Vicky v1.3 is still unplayable IMO due to a very nasty pop income bug that messes up the whole economic model.
I meant their reputation for always patching their games, rather than the non-existant rep for releasing complete, stable games.

I'm going to try and mod the game quite a lot now, things like events to end crusades after 3 years instead of 50, and to make the crusading season a bit more frequent to balance things out. I'll see how many of the niggles I can fix for myself. :remembers how it took several hours of work to successfuly mod the music into something more peaceful with more tracks, because the was notihng said about the tracks having to be listed in alphabetical order for some strange reason: Wish me luck - I'm going to need it

[Baba Ga'on]

From what I've read, this is sounding like some halfassed EU2 in another setting, seeing as there are all kinds of settings that should be in the game, but were left out, while they are in EU2...

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 22 2004,03:55)]From what I've read, this is sounding like some halfassed EU2 in another setting, seeing as there are all kinds of settings that should be in the game, but were left out, while they are in EU2...
there's no comparing the two games, they are completely different. EU is about grand politics, CK is a simulation of the feudal system.

[frogbeastegg]

An update to my modding of CK - everything I want to tweak is hard coded. Oh joy, 50 years of crusades with endless piety penalties while doing anything other than the last few seconds of a province capturing battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I'm now playing a new game as the duke of Ulster, this one is going so well I'm writing it up into a story. You can find Blood Red Hand (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=24;t=17419;r=1;&#top) in our own Mead Hall, if you are bored enough to want to read it.

Playing as a small dukedom avoids some of those problems I mentioned - no vassals can rebel if you rule everything yourself. Crusade expectations for my tiny realm should be minimal, just like the income.

[Baba Ga'on]

Quote[/b] (the Count of Flanders @ April 22 2004,10:39)]Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ April 22 2004,03:55)]From what I've read, this is sounding like some halfassed EU2 in another setting, seeing as there are all kinds of settings that should be in the game, but were left out, while they are in EU2...
there's no comparing the two games, they are completely different. EU is about grand politics, CK is a simulation of the feudal system.
What I meant is that it could easily have all kinds of settings that made EU2 so good implemented in it -- it is the same engine, after all.

[Rosacrux]

Frogbeastegg and all

I just got this game, returning home after a tiresome day at work. Found wife taking a nap, so installed and gave it a shot.

Well... it looks good but... how the heck does it play??? I started off small as a tiny little Byzantine count, but I kinda lost control and account of what was going on and why.

Froggie would you be so kind (extremely kind, actually) and point me to a rigid starting sequence and some basic game elements? Or point me at some kind of straring guide anywhere on the net?

I've skimmed through Paradox forums but most stuff I've found was for the advanced player (and I am not even novice player yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

Thank you very much in advance

[frogbeastegg]

No such thing as a rigid starting sequence, but I can give some general pointers.

Count is not really a good place to start IMO, as you have everything left to do. Start as an independent duke in some small backwater (Ireland, Scotland, those kind of places) or as a powerful king with a realm he can rely on (England), this way you won't be ordered around by a stupid AI intent on ruining you. You also have more to play with, but less hard work to do.

The moment the game starts PAUSE Now check your character, his family, his courtiers. Makes notes, who is married to who, who has what children, who holds what titles (title=count, duke, king, prince etc), what ages people are, what stats they have - basically get to know your people well.

If your king is married to a woman over 35 and has no/few sons consider having her killed so you can marry someone younger and more fertile. Ditto any sons you might have who are already married. Basically make sure your family will be breeding.

Look at your laws (click on your coat of arms, then on the sceptre), especially your inheritance laws. You do NOT under any circumstances want gavelkind law EVER I cannot make that clear enough, gavelkind will split your kingdom up on death and spread it between every son you have. This is a BAD THING You want (semi) salic consanguity or (semi) salic primogeniture. Look them up in the manual. Now the problem is changing those laws, if you have any vassals you will immediately lose all their loyalty and provoke a revolt (dumb, being fixed in a future patch), so ALWAYS change your laws when you are small and stick with them. You are most likely to be small at the beginning of the game.

Church laws and realm laws are different, you can change them without penalty, but must wait 10 years before you can change them again. For church law pick regal supremacy unless you like the Pope giving you strange foreign bishops who steal your lands. Realm laws, well I like feudal contract as it boosts vassal loyalty and increases the number of heavy infantry and knights in my armies.

Once you have set up your laws as you want them (or as close as you can get if you can't alter inheritance safely) click on the advance tab. All of those categories are advance types, you will never get all the advances and must prioritise the ones you like best. I go for chain armour in military (gives armour that boosts the troop types that make up my armies), power in economy (gives roads, roads increase tech spread rate), and whatever I feel like in culture. Focus now and stay focused, once you have roads you can change economy to something else because you have got the main important tech.

A note on tech and research - you don't actually research. Tech has a random discovery time, the more advanced it is the longer the meantime to happen for the discovery event. When you focus your research you are actually reducing the meantime to happen, not putting money towards a set target or waiting out a set time limit. This means you can literally discover the advanced goat in one day or one decade. Tech will spread from province to province, when you 'discover' a tech only your capital will have it, and it will slowly spread to other lands from there. You also get tech as researched by other nations spreading into your lands, this is how you manage to get a lot of your advances. Roads, advanced roads, schools and some other, more advanced buildings will speed the spread of tech, and that is a very good thing indeed, so build them everywhere

I find you don't really need to do anything with your treasury settings, at the beginning.

Now go to your court screen (coat of arms, then click on the people) and assign one person to each of the five jobs (marshal, steward, chancellor, diocese bishop, spymaster) never leave these jobs empty Each person in a job will add their relevant stat (marshal=marshal stat, etc) to your rulers and boost it. Even a paltry 1 makes a difference. Assign the courtiers with the highest stat in that area to the correct job. Note you can make women stewards, spymasters and chancellors, but not bishops or marshals. Never accept a marriage proposal for any of these characters, as they will leave you.

Marriage, that thorny problem you need to grapple with to get anywhere. Basically there are several rules of thumb:

1.Never, ever accept marriage proposals, as you will lose your character to the other court. If you propose the marriage the two characters and their children will stay at your court, giving you more human resources to play with.

2. You can only propose marriages for your own family. If you are playing as the of Ulaids you can only arrange marriages for people called XXXX of Ulaid. Yes, this does mean the only way to marry your 12 stewardship steward is to let the AI propose or to bring him/her into your family. Obviously this is what you use low grade (aka not important like heirs) family members for - marrying those high stat people.

3. Your ruler and his primary heirs should always be married, and always churning out brats. I do hope you are not as squeamish as me, or this game will give you conscience problems. If your wife is past 40, or has spent several years without getting pregnant and you still need heirs (if you have less than 4 sons is my rule) kill her and marry some young thing and try again. I feel so mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

4. Keep it in the family. No, don't marry your precious daughter to her brother (game won't let you), dump her with your cousin instead and then all their children will carry your name, and make your family powerful and numerous. Cousins (they have your name but don't have parents listed on their screen) should marry and produce children with your family name for your court. You can then use those children to marry your heirs etc. You can also set up lines of breeding so a certain family produces children with a high stat in one area, you draw your stewards etc from these people. This takes a generation or two to set up.

5. STATS Never, ever marry your ruler or his heirs, or anyone if you can possibly avoid it, to a low stat idiot. The children resemble the parents, so look for high stats (8+) and marry them.

6. Lust is good, chaste is bad. Lust increases the characters fertility, chaste reduces it. Um, quite obvious how that works and why you want to get that lust trait, and avoid chaste characters like the plague. To get the lust trait you simply have to go with 'indulge the passion' in the pretty wench/strapping young man event, this gives you a bastard and a chance to get the lust trait.

7. Bastards, get them in great numbers They can inherit, they have your name, you can do things with them, and best of all you might get a rep for lust in the process. If a pretty wench/young man catches your eye get over there ASAP

8. Age. So you're a 56 year old man, she's 16, does that make you a pervert or something? Probably, but you need children and there is no 'your bride has fled the country in horror' event. Basically young girls are what you always want, but men are fine until they are 60+. I feel ill now.

:gaps for breath: Now you know the basics of your realm, have enacted some changes and know what marriages you need. Time to get going. Still leave the game on pause though, or the AI will beat you to all the good stuff.

In the first generation you should marry your ruler first, then sons in order of importance. Get the best brides you can from the continent, search out high stat treasures and send a proposal to their liege. Do this endlessly while still on pause, spam the AI with requests for as many good people of yours/theirs as possible. Now unpause and wait for the responses. Note who accepts and who doesn't, pause the game once all your proposals have been answered, and fill any gaps you may have left. Once all your good characters are married start thinking about your crapper characters, either marry them within your court or propose to more foreigners. If you have females filling any of those jobs (spymaster etc) make sure to marry them to someone or the AI will spam requests at you. When you have every single person married your matchmaking duties are done, for now at least.

From here it depends on who you are and what you want to do. Try to build training grounds in each and every one of your personal demesne provinces, this boosts recruitment speed for your levies, in essence giving you a bigger army. Watch the loyalty of your vassals and make adjustments as needed to keep them at 100%.

Any questions?

[Rosacrux]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

questions? That was overwhelming... have to try it when I go at home... wonder if my spouse shall fall for going out to have a cup of coffee with one of her girlfriends... I certainly hope so.

If yes, questions shall come in tommorow.

Thank you, thank you, thank you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Scourge]

I made my wife a countess ,and she went and rebelled on me.
Maybe I should have paid her more attention?
Oh well ,I've got a feeling she's soon going to meet with an unfortunate accident.
Anyway ,Thanks for the tip about not accepting marriages for your more talented courtiers .
Bit late ,for me but...

[Rosacrux]

Holy banana, this game is overwhelming. I played around for a couple of hours and came up with a few questions:

- are there any positive implications by giving away my courtiers in marriages? At least the less talented ones, those I won't be able to use effectively, why shouldn't I give them to the first untermensch asking for their hand? And if I do, what do I gain?

- A strange thing happened: I was playing as Prince of Trapezous and I had started a war against the nearby muslim emirat (they had shattered the Gheorgians). I send an army in a province of them but in the course of the war (and while I was sieging them) my prince died. Funny enough, my whole army was disbanded (and reduced to a nuissance, after returning to their provinces). Why?

- Also, in same instance, it was not my son (my sole adult son at the time, despite my constant efforts with several wives) that inherited me, but one of my vassals Why? Was it because my son was my vassal (given him a province I grabbed from the Muslims) at the time? Or because I had elective law?

- The plague and Typhoid things (VERY nasty things, actually) are completely coincidal or not? Also, the same question about the degradation of my province (I've mostly played the game with a poor province).

Those are just a few of my questions... got more coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks in advance

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 13 2004,09:44)]Holy banana, this game is overwhelming. I played around for a couple of hours and came up with a few questions:
See? That bit I wrote last time barely scratched the surface http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif

Quote[/b] ]- are there any positive implications by giving away my courtiers in marriages? At least the less talented ones, those I won't be able to use effectively, why shouldn't I give them to the first untermensch asking for their hand? And if I do, what do I gain?
All marriages you arrange give you prestige, the higher ranking the people involved the more you get. You also get children, and sometimes with a lot of work you can arrange things so your or one of your people inherits land.

To inherit land (the inheritance laws are screwed from my English POV as women can't inherit squat) you need to find a title holder with no sons (call him barrenA), or one son (doomedA), and a single daughter (targetA) of childbearing age. You also need to make sure barrenA is operating under one of the SEMI salicwhatever laws, as that will allow any children his daughter has to inherit. Marry some guy of yours (creepA) to the daughter, pray for a son (boyA). Kill any sons the title holder may have, until boyA is at the top of BarrenA's inheritance list. Now give boyA some land with a title equal to what he will inherit, this is important as it will keep him as your vassal after he gets barrenA's lands. Now wait (or arrange) for barrenA to die, boyA inherits and brings the land into your kingdom. You can now try to revoke his title, or just leave boyA to play with his new land.

You can't marry rich widows or delicate young heiresses who have wound up holding large tracts of land, because they don't exist. Only children of women can inherit,. not husbands or the women herself. Screwed up, badly screwed up, and it ruins half my cunning plans :mutters under breath about crap inheritance laws:

Quote[/b] ]- A strange thing happened: I was playing as Prince of Trapezous and I had started a war against the nearby muslim emirat (they had shattered the Gheorgians). I send an army in a province of them but in the course of the war (and while I was sieging them) my prince died. Funny enough, my whole army was disbanded (and reduced to a nuissance, after returning to their provinces). Why?
I've not seen that before. The prince was definitely your character, and not a vassal? I haven't had anyone drop dead while commanding an army.

Quote[/b] ]- Also, in same instance, it was not my son (my sole adult son at the time, despite my constant efforts with several wives) that inherited me, but one of my vassals Why? #Was it because my son was my vassal (given him a province I grabbed from the Muslims) at the time? Or because I had elective law?
Elective law will pass on your titles and holdings to your strongest vassal. Make sure your chosen son is the strongest by giving him more land and titles than anyone else. If your current character is old it is even worthwhile to give your heir all your lands and titles bar one province and your best title. This way he will accumulate prestige and have a smoother transition to power.

Make sure you marry your son before giving him titles Vital, for some reason 16 year olds in this game find toothless grannies of 70 deeply erotic, and will always choose them for wives over the pretty young 16 year olds. On the rare occasion they manage to control their fetish and choose someone actually capable of having children they tend to pick low stat, ugly morons with bad traits. Obviously this is not good for your future heirs. The same applies to any daughters you may grant titles to, they pick low stat cretins for some reason. You will also be sobbing when you see your titled children arranging a marriage for their own children...yep, you guessed it, they love to marry old age idiots to their children too.

Quote[/b] ]- The plague and Typhoid things (VERY nasty things, actually) are completely coincidal or not? Also, the same question about the degradation of my province (I've mostly played the game with a poor province).
All of the disease things, except maybe the black death, are random and a real pain in the rear. They appear randomly, and disappear randomly. I once had typhoid in Essex for over a decade. The province income increase/decrease events are equally random.

Quote[/b] ]Those are just a few of my questions... got more coming #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks in advance
I still have loads of questions myself, but I am so busy writing my Ulster AAR I don't have time to play any more.

Scourge your wife is the same as any vassal, if she's rebelling go and take a close look at all your other vassals and pray it is not too late Children get a tiny loyalty bonus when you give them power, so they are very slightly less prone to rebellion, but the difference is barely noticeable to me. I would guess spouses get the same loyalty boost, but when measuring the invisible who can say?

[Komutan]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ May 13 2004,04:32)]Scourge your wife is the same as any vassal, if she's rebelling go and take a close look at all your other vassals and pray it is not too late Children get a tiny loyalty bonus when you give them power, so they are very slightly less prone to rebellion, but the difference is barely noticeable to me. I would guess spouses get the same loyalty boost, but when measuring the invisible who can say?
The loyalty bonuses are not invisible.If you let the pointer stay above the loyalty percent of your vassals a few seconds, you will see what effects them.
If your son is your heir, he #gets 2%(monthly) loyalty bonus for family ties, and 2% for succession order.Your 2nd successor gets %1,6 for succession order.But your wife gets no bonus at all for being your wife.I think she should get a bonus for family ties.

[frogbeastegg]

Strange, the tooltip I know about and use often, but I never get the family related loyalty bonuses listed. I only know they exist because I have seen it on the forums. I do have the trait tooltip mod installed, it shouldn't affect the loyalty tooltips though. I'll do a clean intall and slowly add the mods back in and see if any of them affect the loyalty tooltips, who knows I may even be able to get my custom soundtrack working this time...

[Dîn-Heru]

Following Froggy's advice of sending out a whole lot of marriage proposals for my 16 year old 2nd son as the Duke of Munster I got three acceptances, now he has three wives all with pretty decent stats.

Lucky guy(or unlucky if they don't get along, if you know what I mean... ;) ) #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Have you got 1.2 Dîn-Heru? They were supposed to be fixing that so that if one AI accepted all others would now refuse. I never managed to get more than one spouse, so I thought it was fixed. Maybe it is on the 1.3 list.

[Dîn-Heru]

Yes I have 1.2.

Perhaps it was because all the replies came in at once, so the game didn't register it or something like that.

[Rosacrux]

Oh, this game is fun... came in 1/2 hour late for work today because I missed to check the watch while playing a morning quickie session while zipping on a cup of coffee... luckily my spouse was already gone or I'd had more trouble http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Froggie, I just looove this game. I had another funny incident, and I'd like your advise.

Playing as the Prince of Hellas, I had the event about the disloyal vassal (although all three of my vassals were 100% loyal... go figure) for all my three vassals and I laid claims on the respective titles (not all at once, one at a time).

In the first two wars I waged against my disloyal (?) vassals, I had the help of the Byzantine Emperor. 2 or 3 of his regiments came in and helped me defeat the bugger quickly.

The same thing happened in my third expedition (Thessaly was the last to go) but... well, after I accepted the surrender (including the title of count and some cash) instead of owning the province, the Byzantine Emperor now owned it

What was that all about?

Also, I noticed that while the imperial corps were fighting alongside my forces, I had t pay a huge amount of money to the emperor... (upkeep cost for his troops?)

Darn, this game is extremely fun I have had 11 (yes, 11) kids from my lustful prince and chaste () wife, and married two girls wisely, so now their husbands are first in the line to inherit the Prince of Aegean and Epirus titles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[frogbeastegg]

The disloyal vassal event is either broken or retarded - it always triggers for vassals who are, and remain, 100% loyal, at least it works like that in my games.

If you are a vassal you will be supported by your leige when you go to war, in your case Byz stepped in to kick butt at your side. This is not always a good thing - the highest ranking commander present when a siege ends gets the province under his control. If your liege sends support he usually commands his army personally, in effect stealing your victory. Your liege can also make peace without consulting you, if he is winning he tends to demand those provinces he has captured.

I would guess that in your first and second sieges you had control of the province when entering peace negotiations, so when you demanded the titles they went to you. In the third seige the emperor must have snuck in and stolen your victory, so when you demanded the titles they went to the province holder - your liege.

I played a very short game as a vassal of the king of England. I tired to conquer Wales so I could become king of Wales, but William I kept stealing all my seiges and getting the titles in peace negotiations. I gave up on that game...

I don't think you pay upkeep for your liege's troops. Are you sure the money went to the emperor? Did it go in one big lump sum or in monthly installments?

When those husbands become princes they will be your equals, and therefore independent. Don't count on controlling their new lands.

You chose a chaste wife? Chaste is a trait to avoid like the plague, as it lowers fertility dramatically, just as lustful raises it. Every time you get the 'pretty wench/strapping young man' even you want to indulge the pasion until you get the lustful trait, you never want to choose refuse the passion because you will end up with the chaste trait. As the game tooltip says chaste is nothing to do with being a virgin, it's all about staying fauithful to your current partner.

I had a lusty, chaste king Robert of England once, poor chap must have been so confused. He finds it impossible to remain faithful to just one partner, but at the same time he finds it equally impossible to have an affair.

[Rosacrux]

Oh, that happened? Darn emperor... now how do I drive him out when he can mobilize 60.000 men to fight my meager 3000? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, my wife had extremely good stats and that's why I married her in the first place, not to mention that she is the first in line for a cute county after two brothers.

But despite her being chaste, she is breeding like crazy She bred 9 kids (I had two bastards from the pretty wench event - 11 kids in total)

So, the princes won't be mine, huh? What if I kill them off? Won't their kids (sons of my daughter now in my court) be the nominal heirs? And since they are underage, shouldn't I take them?

As for the upkeep goes: While the Byzantine emperor was fighting alongside with my troops, I was paying like 5.6 golds to him. I had 5.9 Gs. in total, so that left me with 0.3 earning each month. Oh... now I come to think of it, I may have misread it and it was the upkeep for my mobilized forces http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

I'll check it out next time.

Thank you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 14 2004,11:52)]Oh, that happened? Darn emperor... now how do I drive him out when he can mobilize 60.000 men to fight my meager 3000? #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
To become independant you must assume a title equal to or greater than your liege - become a king and you should be free.

You can't declare war without a claim, and even if you win your war with a claim against your liege you will still be his vassal with your new lands, unless those lands make you equal to him.

Quote[/b] ]Well, my wife had extremely good stats and that's why I married her in the first place, not to mention that she is the first in line for a cute county after two brothers.

But despite her being chaste, she is breeding like crazy She bred 9 kids (I had two bastards from the pretty wench event - 11 kids in total)
She must have had a very high fertility in the first place, 9 children is a lot

Quote[/b] ]So, the princes won't be mine, huh? What if I kill them off? Won't their kids (sons of my daughter now in my court) be the nominal heirs? And since they are underage, shouldn't I take them?
It's all in the title, regardless of who takes those prince titles they will be your equal, and therefore free of your control. The only way to make those princes your vassals is to get a title higher than prince yourself. Those brats may be under age, but some nice person will take over as rengent for them. In game terms the baby will rule alone, you just have to imagine that shadowy figure abusing their influence.

Quote[/b] ]As for the upkeep goes: While the Byzantine emperor was fighting alongside with my troops, I was paying like 5.6 golds to him. #I had 5.9 Gs. in total, so that left me with 0.3 earning each month. Oh... now I come to think of it, I may have misread it and it was the upkeep for my mobilized forces #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif :
Sounds like upkeep for your forces.

[Baba Ga'on]

Ok, my mom pulled the following smart move:

She told me that she would buy the game for me when I gave her my next good grade. Well, I just pwnd a Spanish test... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif



~Wiz

[Dîn-Heru]

This might be a silly question, but what is this BB thing you talk about?

[frogbeastegg]

BB, bad boy, aka reputation. The more unpleasant stuff you do (conquering, murdering etc) the higher this number gets. It affects vassal loyalty, and diplomacy, and if it gets too high the whole world will declare war on you. The number will go down with time, according to various factors that changed in the 1.2 patch and were not fully explained. Giving out titles decreases BB, as does piety by some formula. There are other, unknown factors that affect reduction too.

BB in CK is not nearly as compex as BB in EU2, unfortunately.

[Dîn-Heru]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I belived it was something like that, just wasn't sure. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rosacrux]

CK update

For the past five days (in the little free time I've got) I am trying to take Thessalonike (one of my favorite Greek cities nowadays #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) to the path of glory.

I am now into the 4th generation (around 1180) and I control 5 provinces myself and 12 through my lieges - I even managed to elect a few years ago my son in law as Pope (but since I haven't got a kingdom yet, he became independant and took Arta with him... bloody SOB).

I am having extreme fun with this game. I have recovered once from tarnished BB but now I am falling there again, and I don't think all the favors of the world shall buy me a place in heaven now #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My sole problem is the Byzantine emperor. I got the prestige to challenge him, but he's way too powerful (the bloody bugger has a 20-province demesne... geesh, talk about not trusting your relatives #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) and I am reluctant on doing this. I am slowly working my way towards the Kingdoms of Naples and Kroatia (I was very close to the crown of Serbia, but the Emperor beat me to it... bloody hell) to become independant of my liege, but truth is I'd love the crown of Byzantium # http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

A very interesting occurence: the second prince (son of the original prince) was married twice. The first wife gave him 6 kids (5 survived to adultery) and a couple of pretty wenches added two more. The second wife (my man got her when he was 54) gave him 7 more kids (6 survived) and another little bastard (literaly) was added by a passing wench. 14 kids made it, nevertheless impressive, no?

BTW Froggie, I've installed the LUCKS package and it severely ruined some of my gaming experience - hordes of CTDs for instance, not to mention that the disease_stress modification ruins the game in no time (try to play with a court diseased and/or crazed by 2/3s...).

I've kept only the cultural conversion mod and I am using the 1066 bugfix and everything goes swell
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Ah, Froggie, I just remembered something. From time to time, the emperor seems to be eager for money and I see the duty to liege meter to rise to extreme heights (and my net income dive to extreme depths).

Do you know how the mechanism for this works? Can't I simply refuse to finance this megalomaniacs world-domination dreams? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ May 20 2004,09:31)]CK update
I am now into the 4th generation (around 1180)
That's further than I've got, I keep giving up and restarting in the second generation after a decade or two of crusading. The piety losses are just too much; even if I conquer like a mad frog I still lose more than I gain back. Bah patch I should play Orthodox to escape the expectations, but the Catholics are more interesting to me.

Quote[/b] ]I even managed to elect a few years ago my son in law as Pope (but since I haven't got a kingdom yet, he became independant and took Arta with him... bloody SOB).
As far as I know the Pope is always independent, you can become papal controller but that just means you can excommunicate people. You can also become Pope yourself...

Quote[/b] ]I am having extreme fun with this game. I have recovered once from tarnished BB but now I am falling there again, and I don't think all the favors of the world shall buy me a place in heaven now #http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You think tarnished is bad? So did I - until I worked my way to despicable. Oh dear, I became king but at what a terrible cost I can have no vassals and will spend the next few decades doing penance and giving sweets to children to repair my reputation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Even low BB is a problem, as it affects vassal loyalty dramatically.

Quote[/b] ]A very interesting occurence: the second prince (son of the original prince) was married twice. The first wife gave him 6 kids (5 survived to adultery) and a couple of pretty wenches added two more. The second wife (my man got her when he was 54) gave him 7 more kids (6 survived) and another little bastard (literaly) was added by a passing wench. 14 kids made it, nevertheless impressive, no?
Survived to adultery? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Sorry I shouldn't laugh, adultery=having an affair with someone who is married/while married yourself. Adulthood=on becoming an adult.

14 children, impressive. Someone has managed more than 25 on the CK official forums, but I don't take much notice of the CK general discussions anymore since I feel the place has a bad atmosphere now, so the record may have altered. I think my best is something like 9: 2 bastards and the rest legitimate. It's a wonder I got that many, since that was king Robert of England, the single most ugly man the in the CK world.

All of the characters I have played (Culad of Ulster, William the Conqueror, Robert of England) have started off as 'old' men of 40 or more, and they die before they are 60. The only young character I’ve played is doing well on the fatherhood front, but the game is getting bogged down by those wretched crusade expectations.

Quote[/b] ]BTW Froggie, I've installed the LUCKS package and it severely ruined some of my gaming experience - hordes of CTDs for instance, not to mention that the disease_stress modification ruins the game in no time (try to play with a court diseased and/or crazed by 2/3s...).
I haven't installed LUCKS, it is far too early for it to be bug free. I have the tooltip mod and the cool courtier mod, but that is all.

Quote[/b] ]Ah, Froggie, I just remembered something. From time to time, the emperor seems to be eager for money and I see the duty to liege meter to rise to extreme heights (and my net income dive to extreme depths).

Do you know how the mechanism for this works? Can't I simply refuse to finance this megalomaniacs world-domination dreams? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I've not played as a vassal yet. I would assume duty to your liege will be at least mostly scutage, so perhaps the emperor has put scutage taxes up?

[Dîn-Heru]

How exactly do you crusade? Do you only declare war on any pagan or muslim country, or is there a special button that I can't see?

The reason I ask is that as the Duke of Munster I conqured Ösel, which was pagan, but it didn't seem to do anything with the crusade expectation, and they only seem to grow worse.

[frogbeastegg]

Beginner's guide to crusading: 1001 reasons why I hate organised religion

Crusade expectations are permanent until you get a message pop up telling you the crusades are over. The crusade expectations will grow as more land comes under he control of your dynasty, so the more you conquer the more you must conquer.

The crusade season will last for over 100 years, there is no set end and I have never kept going long enough to experience one. I have seen people say that they were expected to crusade for over 300 years Reportedly if you conquer all the non-Christian provinces on the map the crusade will end, but that takes a long time and a lot of resources.

You crusade by attacking and conquering Muslim/pagan provinces - if it isn't Christian in some form it is a valid target. On winning the siege in the province it will come under the control of the highest ranking person in the besieging army, so make sure YOU personally lead your armies with your character, or else your marshal/underling will take the province and become your vassal. On taking the province you are awarded a sum of piety with no message or anything to alert you. Provinces are worth different amounts; the historical targets like Jerusalem are worth more but are harder to take. You will only receive the piety points during the crusade season, when the sword and banner are beneath your portrait.

I found I was losing far more than I could ever regain, as England (king of England, Scotland, France and Wales) I set out to beat up the Almohads in Spain, using all the troops from my personal demesne. I took one small, crappy province and gained 20 piety, but lost more than 40 because it took so long to reach and capture the damn place. I took a quite few more places but eventually my personal armies were totally exhausted and my piety was getting worse by the month because the land I took increased my expectations. I couldn't fight on, but I couldn't get peace either because my warscore was always 0. This is because on taking a province ownership was mine, meaning I had nothing to hold over the heads of my enemies. I quit that game in disgust when the Almohads sailed off in their little ships and invaded both France and Scotland They wouldn’t protect their homes; they actually set sail as I was still conquering them

As Ulster I don't even have the manpower to take one crappy province, well I suppose I can take one province, but then I will get crushed by the lord who owns the demesne the province belongs to. I don't even have the money to ship my troops over to the mainland. That game is dead because of the piety loss, which I cannot replace. You can build churches, increase church donations from your treasury and so on to offset this penalty, but the technology for churches hasn’t reached me yet and my donations are on maximum already.

You gain piety by granting bishoprics, but only when creating a new one (giving the title to a character who has no current land), not expanding an existing one. It’s better to conquer land, and then make it into bishoprics. You can only give men with ecclesiastical education bishoprics; no one else qualifies. Of course the problem is that eventually you run out of characters to give land to, the AI vassals are suicidal, when your bishops die you will not always get to chose their replacement, and the land still increases your expectations. All titles can be given away to religious guys, count=bishop, duke=um…big bishop, king=er, really big bishop – sorry, I don’t remember the correct names You give the higher titles away in the same way as you give the duke/king titles, by giving enough land to make up the title to a vassal, then going into their court and granting them the higher title.

War and then peace, that is the limits of diplomacy with the non-Christians.

This is why I always quit and start a new game when the crusades begin.

[Rosacrux]

Froggie, you should really try to play as Orthodox... heaps of fun, you can focus on the political-military-Bene Geserit part of the game and forget about crusades, piety and other nuissances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

Actually, playing as any (or almost any) Byzantine vassal, the game is too easy (and even on top difficulty): in one or two generations, provided you've done your duty by gaining some more power by aquiring a couple of provinces and ideally another duchy title too, you get to inherit the Byzantine throne. The elective law works for you, you know.

After that the game can become a nightmare or a walk in the park, depending on your strategy and/or buildup.


P.S. Damned, I always get adulthood and adultery mixed up
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It's a good thing I am still far from adulthood (mentally, at least) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I'm thinking of playing as emperor of Byz next, it will be the first 'serious' game that will get past 1100. No crusades :smiles slightly and stares off into space, considering the huge possibilities that presents:

I've reinstalled the game, left it modless and repatched it to 1.2. I have almost got my custom soundtrack working at long last. I'm going to go on a Thief marathon, trying to finish both the original games before the third comes out on the 16th June. I will probably find time for the occasional 20 minutes of CK though, just for variety.

[Baba Ga'on]

Can you play as the Georgians ...? They would seem like an interesting starting point...

And yeah, I finally ordered the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Alrowan]

ive been palying as duke of gwynedd, who became king of wales, who became king of england.

so now my welsh dynasty is fighting the muslims in the iberian peninsual with some success. Piety is at -1500 though... only because i like to cull my hiers nd create a strong line