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PanthaPower
01-13-2003, 14:15
I think this utility from Wellington deserves a seperate post so that more people will read it. The original conversation can be found at
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=3822 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=3822)

This is a quote from Wellington:

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 09 2003,22:12)]Hi Guys,

LukMapMaker is now on the Org's test downloads. It's named "TEST_LukMapMaker_PROVISIONAL_VERSION.zip" and is around 150K. It contains the code/source, the required files and directory structure and a very small (for download considerations) test map called 'Islands'.

You also have to download "TEST_LukMapMaker_GUI_OCX" (22K). I missed this in the original download

IMPORTANT: Please read the "Installation Instructions" 1st. Then read the "FAQ". Then run LukMapMaker on the simple test map ('Islands&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Then read the "Readme". It will make far more sense if you do it this way

This a PROVISIONAL version. I'm currently spending 100% of my free time finishing it so expect another version in a week or two.

Two other (larger) test maps have been uploaded -
- "TEST_LukMapMaker_EXAMPLE_Britain.zip" (500K)
- "TEST_LukMapMaker_EXAMPLE_WestMed.zip" (1.3 Meg)

I STRONGLY recommend you download these 2 examples, include them in the correct folder and run them. They contain better examples of LukMapMaker functionality that is'nt in the 'Islands' example.

Note that LukMapMaker does A LOT of processing and is VERY CPU intensive. Therefore it can take some time to run (depending on how big your campaign map is). On my PC (1600 P4) the example maps take the following times to run -

Islands - 30 seconds
Britain - 3 minutes
WestMed - 9 minutes

I also did a copy of the MTW campaign map and ran LukMapMaker on it. This took 40 minutes You have been warned

Give it a try, see what's it's trying to do and feed any questions/ideas/comments back via the Org.

I have a few more questions regarding this whole area but for now just 1 -

Q1: Can anyone provide me with a document detailing the format of an MTW LBM file (specifically the LukMap's LBM file type format). Ok, I know it's an IFF-type but there are several different LBM formats. If anyone knows this for sure it will save me a lot of time playing around with a Hex editor ... Sigh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Welly.

Wellington,

in one word WOW You must have spend so much time in making all this. Right now I feel a bit overwhelmed about the potential and it seems that weeks of modding time are made useless in just 30 minutes of playing around with your tool. I'm at work right now and I don't have a playing MTW machine here. I also hardly have any spare time in the evenings at the moment but I hope I can find some time soon to test things with my LOTR maptex.

Anyway, here is some feedback on things without testing your results in MTW yet. I will post some more feedback after I tried your utility on my LOTR maptex, implemented your new script files into the startpos and ran a few tests in MTW to check for any errors, flaws, etc.


* About your question about the format of an MTW LBM file, sorry, can't give you any info on that.

* In "Installation Instructions.txt" you refer to the wrong download file in the "Graphics DLL" section. It should be "CSIFT.ZIP".

* I might think that someone wants to make changes (point castle, port, etc postions) to current LBM files and run that through your converter and make the scripts. I'm also thinking of people who want to use a part of the MTW maptex/lukmap as a mod. Not sure how much works this will cause you though.

* The part about making two region part of the "SameRegion" or connecting to regions as a "LandBridge" was not totally clear to me the first time I read your guide and looked into the paramters and examples. It might be a good idea to dedicate two or three more sentences in the FAQ on explainging how this works.

* The Factons and Parameters text file might look a bit dautning for new modders who are just getting into the mod making. It should be fairly easy for you to make a clickable GUI so that the these factions and parameter fields are also auto-created.

Wellington
01-13-2003, 21:11
Panthapower,

"in one word WOW"

In the words of Fred Dibnah "Did you like that ...eh" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


" ...it seems that weeks of modding time are made useless in just 30 minutes of playing around with your tool."

Er ... sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif


"* About your question about the format of an MTW LBM file, sorry, can't give you any info on that."

Ok. I hope someone can point me in the right direction here. I read in some post or other that someone had

created a utility that changes the Palette in an LBM (was that you Lord Gnome?). If whoeber did that is

familar with ALL of the LBM file format I'm all ears At present I'm creating '.bmp's for Lukmap and Lukmap2.

I also have a quick small utility that replaces the palette in an LBM with the palette defined in

LukMapMakers "LBMPalette.txt" so I can easily create LBM's from these 2 BIF's - however, it would be nice if

I can build the LBM straight away for the VB 6 executable version. (BTW: I'll post this quick utility,

"LBMPaletteReplacer", to "The Org" if anyone requires it).


"* In "Installation Instructions.txt" you refer to the wrong download file in the "Graphics DLL" section. It

should be "CSIFT.ZIP"."

Whoops - corrected.

"* I might think that someone wants to make changes (point castle, port, etc postions) to current LBM files

and run that through your converter and make the scripts. I'm also thinking of people who want to use a part

of the MTW maptex/lukmap as a mod. Not sure how much works this will cause you though."

The problem is that LukMapMaker requires to know what features are located where on any map. If you want to

change positions on the current MTW campaign map you would still have to provide a '.bmp' image with all the

features writen onto it. This may be a problem as LukMapMaker will most probably NOT allocate the same

regions ID's as in the original - so the Scripot is screwed up Might think more about this area.

I'm sure there are many other routes we can go down with this type of utility. At present I'm thinking about

LukMapMaker having 3 distinct parts in just the one utility -

1) create all the maps correctly and as much of the Script as possible.
2) add a clickable GUI interface for editing the Script (buttons, drop down lists, combo's ect). This would

allow defining region characteristics (Mountain/Hilly river etc), faction lands, culture/religions, goods and

resources, units and buildings on the regions. Obviously this could be only be done when you have a error

free map from 1)
3) create an Installer/Uninstaller (I already have one for MUMU - so this is'nt much work).

For now I'm concentrating on 1) - everything else can follow after I get 1) working correctly.


"* The part about making two region part of the "SameRegion" or connecting to regions as a "LandBridge" was

not totally clear to me the first time I read your guide and looked into the paramters and examples. It might

be a good idea to dedicate two or three more sentences in the FAQ on explainging how this works."

I've rehashed the FAQ and readme to explain this a bit better. Then again, an example speaks a thousand

words. I have a new version ready (maybe post it tomorrow) which now creates the small map BIFs and does a

few other things. I'll post this new Version of LukMapMaker when I'm finished all the documention.


"* The Factons and Parameters text file might look a bit dautning for new modders who are just getting into

the mod making. It should be fairly easy for you to make a clickable GUI so that the these factions and

parameter fields are also auto-created."

True. Then again, if you consider how much work/knowledge is required in this whole area of campaign map

modding I really think this type of utility will be a big question mark for new modders. For people who are

already au fait with this area of MTW modding I'm hoping LukMapMaker won't pose too much of a challemge -

hence the copius writeups in the FAQ and Readme.

Think of the "Factions.txt" and many parameters in "Parameters.txt" as being temporary (just to complete a

Script that will work Ok in MTW). Once I move on to writing 2) above this area will change and hopefully be a

lot easier/less confusing.


I'll post again to this thread when I have the next version ready - probably tomorrow.

(BTW: I've created a fantastic LukMap/LukMap2 of the USA circa 1850 - I'm busy trying to incorporate this

into MTW - as Whitey said the Pope may be a problem. The map looks great but it's 9 meg Too big to post

unfortunately)

barocca
01-13-2003, 21:26
Mithel wrote the lukmap pallette converter,
it's available from the general section of any of the tools download pages,

there is an email in the file he may be able to help,

ALSO you can save the pallette from his utility,
this might help,

the pallette needs to be ordered to allocate provinces,
mayhap you can decipher the pallette ordering from his utility and adjust your code to suit?

barocca
01-13-2003, 21:29
the LBMPaletteReplacer may be usefull,
it may be usefull to future members who want to work on LBM projects,
please upload it at the very least for posterity,
cheers
B.

Wellington
01-13-2003, 22:21
Barocca,

Great I'll E-mail Mithel and ask him if he has the LBM file formats defined in his program/utility.

Ok. I'll download the palette replacer. Before I do so I'll have to change it a bit - the reason being I have 2 similar 'bits of code' one for replacing and one for extracting palettes from LBM's. ALso they are specifically (at present) being used for my LukMapMaker testing and so rely on a couple of LukMapMaker characteristics/file structures.

Therefore, I'll merge these 2 bits of code, remove the LukMapMaker file structure dependencies, put a GUI on them, and download them as 1 simple utility to the test downloads area section. You'll then have a simple Import/Export type type utility just for LBM colour palettes (It's only a couple of hours work - and I HATE releasing something that is not 'done properly' - which is why MUMU is taking so long to release ... sigh&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Expect it in a couple of days. I'll post to this thread when I upload it.

Wellington
01-14-2003, 03:54
Ok,

Another question in this area of campaign maps -

Q: Do windows bitmaps ('.bmp' file types) have a transparency feature built into the file structure?

I'm using a Graphics package for LukMapMaker that does'nt appear to allow certain colours to be transparent for '.bmp' file types. It allows transparency features for '.gif' type images but as BifReader does'nt recognise importing '.gif' type files into frames this is no good to me (NOT a BifReader problem by the way&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

My problem is trying to ensure that certain bif files ("minimap.bif" and "factions map lukup.bif") retain some transparency in terms of Sea/Land region colours.

Please bear in mind I'm learning a LOT of this as I go along, and am by no means an expert in this area - therefore, for you guys who are more familiar with this area of graphics files than I am - can a '.bmp' type file support colour transparency within the file structure?

Thanks in advance for replies.

PanthaPower
01-14-2003, 10:44
Wellington,

I made some time yesterday to prepare a maptex for LukMap conversion and ran it on my P3-733mhz. It took about two hours for a 9 MB bitmap (yes it was Low-Res) but the result was very good. The program reported 2 errors and 5 warnings but because of the extra info it was easy to track the problems. I still have to run it again now after a small modification so I didn't test your scripts yet.

I have a question though. Would it be possible to make an extract of the newly created regions into a seperate file after the LukMapMaker is finished. Then using that file together with the Re_Identifiers as a guide to manually rename the regions. Then run a second utility to edit your fresh made script to change AddTitles and als create a new Names.txt, Changes.txt, GloryGoals.txt and Variables.txt. I'm sure you are thinking of something like this for your USA campaign too.

About your Pope problems, well I was speaking about this with Whitey via email and it might be an idea to just use the pope as the only Catholic in your MOD. The other religions should give you more then enough options left to play with. The only thing that would remain is that the Pope will not be easily kept of the map when conquered. All the effort Whitey and me have put into it to remove the Pope resulted in a crash or a reapearance of the pope within a few turns.

Hope this gives you some more ideas.

panthapower

Alrowan
01-14-2003, 12:17
where is the link, i cant seem to find it

PanthaPower
01-14-2003, 12:25
Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Jan. 14 2003,11:17)]where is the link, i cant seem to find it
Download it at:
http://www.totalwar.org//Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWbeta/

Download the four files which look something like "Test_LukMapMaker"

Alrowan
01-14-2003, 14:21
ahh. thanks

PanthaPower
01-14-2003, 17:12
Wellington,

I now have a perfect LukMap.bmp plus a clear script. The whole conversion went without any erros or warnings. I now want to test it in MTW ofcourse and make a new early.txt but I need to convert the files I have to the LBM format first. Although I have your Palette explained in a text file plus the BMP with the corresponding colours, I cannot find a way to convert the BMP to LBM with the palette you used (with the tools I currently have). If you use any special tool or conversion technique, could you please tell me what it is?

Thanks

barocca
01-14-2003, 17:12
to stall repetitive enquiries regarding changing province names,

i think in the loc file names.txt
the line ["Mercia"] {"Mercia"} controls the ingame displayed province name,
you can change {"Mercia"} to be anything you want,
but leave ["Mercia"] as it appears in the names.txt file.
then corresponding changes need to be made to
changes, events, glorygoals, names and variables text files, ALSO for completeness change JMTutorial.txt
(57 changes in total)

NOW
is it possible for the lukmapmaker to use and load an alternate set of province names for display in the reference image files? (if no new list is provided the program should simply use the default list),

i think you always need to use the default list for the campaign script file

PanthaPower
01-14-2003, 17:35
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 14 2003,16:12)]to stall repetitive enquiries regarding changing province names,

i think in the loc file names.txt
the line ["Mercia"] {"Mercia"} controls the ingame displayed province name,
you can change {"Mercia"} to be anything you want,
but leave ["Mercia"] as it appears in the names.txt file.
then corresponding changes need to be made to
changes, events, glorygoals, names and variables text files, ALSO for completeness change JMTutorial.txt
(57 changes in total)

NOW
is it possible for the lukmapmaker to use and load an alternate set of province names for display in the reference image files? (if no new list is provided the program should simply use the default list),

i think you always need to use the default list for the campaign script file
Barocca,

I'm almost 100% sure we need the offical Region_ID names to use in our scripts. No way to change them I guess. But we should be able to make changes to the display names, event names, etc.
What I asked for in my previous post was that if Wellington could include a conversion for this in his tool too but leave the Region_ID's intact.

Wellington
01-14-2003, 18:42
Panthapower/Barocca,

First, I should say you guys are at a 'more advanced' stage in this than I am. I've been writing the code as I go along (based on requirements for my USA campaign) but I see I'm going to have to provide a bit more functionality in LukMapMaker to get the next step moving (what I always anticipated to be stage 2 of this developement).

Obviously I was always anticipating proving this ID/Name translation for both the Script and the Names.txt in Loc/Eng, but I'm going to have to do something NOW.

Ok, what I propose is the following -


Region names and MTW Identifiers
================================

1) Another file 'RegionNames.txt' in each of your map's folders containing a cross reference of MTW Identifiers and specific names for your campaign. This will look like -

ID_Scotland "Utah"
ID_North_umbria "New York"
ID_Mercia "Florida"
... and so on

If you copy the file "Lookuptable.txt" into your map folder, rename it to "RegionNames.txt" and edit it as per the above you can be creating part of your specific "RegionNames.txt" now whilst I'm writing the code for it (providing your map is the final version you should now know exactly which MTW identifiers LukMapMaker has assigned to the various regions on your map).

2) LukMapMaker will write another "Ref_" type file ("Ref_Names.bmp") that uses the names defined in your RegionNames.txt - very similar to "Ref_Identifiers.txt"

3) LukMapMaker will use these names in the Script.txt (as opposed to the names it currently uses which are defined in the "LookupTable.txt").

4) LukMapMaker will also take a copy of the MTW "Names.txt" (in the Loc/Eng folder) and translate the MTW names to your specific names.

5) As Barocca pointed out, there may be a few MTW text files that require translating as per 4) - if you can you help me out by posting a definitive list of ALL MTW files that will need translating this will save me time (Note: once I've coded LukMapMaker to translate 1 MTW text file, "Names.txt", any other's filkes that require similar translating are easy - I can use the same routine for all of them).

6) Any MTW files LukMapMaker translates with your "RegionNames.txt" names will be written to the MTWFiles folder for the specific map.


LukMapMaker - 2 run's
=====================

This will require AT LEAST 2 run's of LukMapMaker.

1) run 1 (or more) - getting the map error free and final. Only then will you be able to correctly assign names in the "RegionNames.txt"

2) run 2 - to allow LukMapMaker to do the translation using the MTW IDs/names cross reference you've provided (ok - maybe a bit inefficient but it's quick and easy - I can redo/rethink this later).



LBM Palettes
============

I really hav'nt got this far yet (as I was anticipating writing the actual LBM) - still, whilst I'm waiting for LBM file format info maybe the following will be a quick workaround -

a) convert the created lukmap/lukmap2 BMPs into LBMs via the utility Gfx2 (Barocca knows all about this utility) or any other Graphics package.

b) use another small utility (that I'll provide and download together with the 2nd version of LukMapMaker) in order to replace the palette in the LBMs, as per a) above, with the palette defined in LukMapMakers "LBMPalette.txt" file.

This small utility will probably be called "LBMPaletteInOut.vbs" and will be a VB Script as per LukMapMaker.



LukMapMaker Files
=================

I may also add another table ("MTWNameFiles.txt"?) in the defaults which will just list the various MTW paths and files that require translation (eg: "loc/end/names.txt") with the required names provided in "RegionNames.txt". I'll have to think about this - may be a bit more flexable (instead of hardcoding a list) in case I miss an MTW file somewhere. Then LukMapMaker can just run through all the files you've listed for translation.

Hence the reference/input text files that LukMapMaker will be using would be -

- "LBMPalette.txt" - in the Defaults folder
- "LookUpTable.txt" - in the Defaults folder
- "MTWNameFiles.txt" - in the Defaults folder
- "Parameters.txt" - in the specific map folder
- "Factions.txt" - in the specific map folder
- "RegionNames.txt" - in the specific map folder



Conclusion
----------

I was going to release the 2nd version of LukMapMaker today or tomorrow. I'll wait until this extra code is in and working - maybe 2/3 days. I'll also include the "LBMPaletteInOut.vbs" utility to assist in replacing the 'lukmap.lbm/lukmap2.lbm' palettes with LukMapMakers "LBMPalette.txt".

Whilst I'm coding, are there any other "Ref_" type files that may be useful? Note: the 2nd version creates the "Xref.txt" which is very useful (it also creates the BIFs, and frames/borders, for the correctly sized small maps and does a 'few other things&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Have I missed anything? Let me know.

regards,
Welly


(BTW: Panthapower - beware of a small bug when LukMapMaker creates the Script.txt - look for a string of "ID_ID_", or is it "FN_FN_", in the created Script.txt)

MR EGG
01-14-2003, 22:55
Hello this is a brilliant program I got it to work but some land regions were in the sea etc.I Converted the luk map bmp's to png's with photoshop & then to lbm's with mith's image converter which seemed to mess around with your colour palette, but still it worked, can't wait for the finished product. Thx M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MR EGG
01-14-2003, 22:58
Hello this is a brilliant program I got it to work but some land regions were in the sea etc.I Converted the luk map bmp's to png's with photoshop & then to lbm's with mith's image converter which seemed to mess around with your colour palette, but still it worked, can't wait for the finished product. Thx M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-14-2003, 23:29
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 14 2003,15:58)]Hello this is a brilliant program I got it to work but some land regions were in the sea etc.I Converted the luk map bmp's to png's with photoshop & then to lbm's with mith's image converter which seemed to mess around with your colour palette, but still it worked, can't wait for the finished product. Thx M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Mr Egg,

Thanks for your kind comments. This is a very PROVISIONAL version at present. A new version will arrive in a few days (2 or 3) with more functionality (and correcting some issues) in respect of -

- providing the correct 'small maps' with borders/frames
- providing a 'quick and easy' (if somewhat 'dirty'&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif solution to Panthapower and Barocca's ideas/requests for associating MTW identifiers (eg: ID_SCOTLAND) with modders province names.

At this stage of developement I should really say I appreciate all the ideas/advice/answers to questions, etc that I've received from many other Modders in this group. The feedback to my original thread, and other similar threads (from Panthapower, Whitey, Barocca, Alrowan and many others), have aided me ENORMOUSLY in gleaning information from the work of others.

Ok, maybe I wrote the code but it really was a case of 'standing on the shoulders of giants' so my thanks to all who have contributed to this project (whether you realise you have contributed or not&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

BTW: this project IS'NT finished yet - so please add your ideas NOW - and (as far as I'm concerned) NO idea is a STUPID idea Speak now whilst I'm busy with it.

Mr Egg - nice to see a 'new face' looking at what we are trying to do in this small forum.

You said "I got it to work but some land regions were in the sea etc." Did you manage to correct your map ok by refering to the "Ref_" type files and /or the 'Errorlog.txt'? Any further problems?

Stay tuned

regards,
Welly

barocca
01-15-2003, 06:16
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 14 2003,10:35)]
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 14 2003,16:12)]to stall repetitive enquiries regarding changing province names,

i think in the loc file names.txt
the line ["Mercia"] {"Mercia"} controls the ingame displayed province name,
you can change {"Mercia"} to be anything you want,
but leave ["Mercia"] as it appears in the names.txt file.
then corresponding changes need to be made to
changes, events, glorygoals, names and variables text files, ALSO for completeness change JMTutorial.txt
(57 changes in total)

NOW
is it possible for the lukmapmaker to use and load an alternate set of province names for display in the reference image files? (if no new list is provided the program should simply use the default list),

i think you always need to use the default list for the campaign script file
Barocca,

I'm almost 100% sure we need the offical Region_ID names to use in our scripts. No way to change them I guess. But we should be able to make changes to the display names, event names, etc.
What I asked for in my previous post was that if Wellington could include a conversion for this in his tool too but leave the Region_ID's intact.
i also think you are correct,
the script needs the correct names (i think - alomst 100% certain),
(i must have misread your post,)

what i asked is for the ref_ images to use the "new" province names as chnged in the names/changes etc files...
BUT the script to use the default names

(in other words we asked for the same thing, just using different words to do so)

barocca
01-15-2003, 06:18
here's a clue,
mithels program lets you save the pallette from an official lukmap and then you use his utility to "order" the pallette entries in a new lukmap by loading the previously saved pallette (from the official lukmap),

Wellington,
can you "examine" the saved pallette from mithels program, maybe that will allow you to solve your problem??

PanthaPower
01-15-2003, 11:24
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 14 2003,21:58)]Hello this is a brilliant program I got it to work but some land regions were in the sea etc.I Converted the luk map bmp's to png's with photoshop & then to lbm's with mith's image converter which seemed to mess around with your colour palette, but still it worked, can't wait for the finished product. Thx M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Mr Egg,

I aso use the BMP to PNG to LBM via Mithel's tool but one crucial step in that process which you din't include is the Loading of the pallette (which includes the RGB values for each slot).
I assume you are just importing a pallette which you extracted from another LBM file in the past (which is probably the reason why you say Mithel's program messes it up). And because it messes up, the ID_Region's in the script will not recognize the correct regions anymore and give the proper attributes.

The only way we can make a working LBM file after running the LukMapMaker at the moment is either trying to find a way to import the pallette Wellington provided into the new files the tool creates (hoping that whatever program we use doesn't screw the pallette up while saving) or wait for an update of Wellington's tool.

I tried the first option to load the pallette but it didn't work for me. So I'll go for option two to just wait for the new tool and give some feedback while waiting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PanthaPower
01-15-2003, 12:06
Wellington,

I didn't have any time yesterday to do any testing or reply to your new post. I will test some things later this evening concerning the changing of Region names in different files and post the results here when 'm ready.

Thanks for telling me about the bug. I also noticed it yesterday evening while going through the script quickly. It seems that it only happens with the PlaceLeader:: section.

About this part where you state that some people on this forum (including me) are 'more advanced' in this stage of the campaign map modding, well, I don't feel that way. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

By the way, what would be a great addition to your LukMapMaker (can we call it LMM from now on?) is that you can run the program starting at different stages (saves a lot of CPU time and shortens the testing time). I'm not sure if your program will allow to jump in at different stages after the creation of some BMP files (e.g. to add a port) but it would be a great addition to change e.g. something in the parameter.txt/faction.txt and run your program again to create a new script without creating new LukMap.bmp, etc. My PC "chokes" for 1,5 hour to crank out the files so this option would be a warm welcome

Concerning your programming on the "Region names and MTW Identifiers" I have a question. As you write your ideas I get the idea that you will try to make things dynamic in a way that the user won't have to "supply" e.g. the names.txt. I get the idea that you will look in the registry for the MTW root (or using your idea of creating a "MTWNameFiles.txt") and use that directory as the source for your conversion process and write the results in the LMM-Mod directory or the MTW directory. If my assumption is right, you should be careful because most modders (including me) have multiple instances of MTW. I suggest that the user who wishes to run your program should manually make the files available in the same folder where you also put the initial BMP, parameters.txt and faction.txt. If not available, your program shouldn't generate anything. But that's just my two cents. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

About uploading the "LBMPaletteInOut.vbs"
to import your Colour table into the LBM, YES PLEASE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Okay, I will post some more later this evening about the Text files needed for translations.

barocca
01-15-2003, 23:36
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 15 2003,05:06)]...My PC "chokes" for 1,5 hour to crank out the files...

my PC has been smoothed - nothing running in the background and is actually 10% faster than the expected times for cranking out the files,
suggest check what is running behind your back and minimise the numbers of additional apps and utils loading at startup


Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 15 2003,05:06)]Concerning your programming on the "Region names and MTW Identifiers" ... If my assumption is right, you should be careful because most modders (including me) have multiple instances of MTW. I suggest that the user who wishes to run your program should manually make the files available in the same folder where you also put the initial BMP, parameters.txt and faction.txt. If not available, your program shouldn't generate anything...

agree 100%
I have 3 copies of MTW on my HDD...

Wellington
01-16-2003, 00:36
A few quick points -


Running LMM in 2 diffferent ways
================================

Good idea Panthapower. There are a few snags in this however. At present LMM can be thought of as consisting of 2 seperate 'parts', each part really doing it's own thing -

1) all the map making (which takes all the time)
2) building the Xref/Script text files and doing the names translation of the 'Loc/Eng' folder files (when I manage to get this done)

All the LMM routines for 1) are very inter-dependent in that one routine relies heavily on work that has been performed by prior routines. Therefore, you cant just add anothor port on your map and just run the LMM "Port routines" - LMM would still have to do all the prior work. Trying to change it would be a pain.

What you CAN do however (and I've already coded this in now&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif is perform 2 different types of run -

a) a Map and Script creation run
b) a Script creation only run

The idea is that once you have a set of maps your happy with, after running a), you can then start changing the various parameters relating to b) - factions.txt, regionnames.txt, parameters.txt ... and any others that we may add for the translation parts. This would allow you to do a bit of trial and error on various parameters for the Script etc. This will save a LOT of time.

Q: As regards the Script file that LMM creates do you we need another other options in generating this Sceript? A lot of the parameters for the keywords (MakeUnit:: etc) are hard coded. ANy thoughts on any paramters that may be useful to allow user definition?


Translation of names
====================

I've a quick look at the tables in loc/eng/names.txt - hhmmm ... may be a bit trickier than I 1st thought as there seem to be several different formats for MTW region names (ie "Ilse de France", " of Ilse de France", "The King of France", "chancellor of France", "Paris Castle" and so on ). These are all closely related but also unrelated if you know what I mean. Also titles may be a bit painful. Still anything LMM can do in this respect will be better than nothing. Any thoughts?

MTW Installation folder
=======================

As for the MTW root folder I've added 2 'browse for folder' calls (standard Windows API), one for the MTW root and one for the BifReader root.

I'm anticipating most/all users of LMM will specify an unmodded MTW folder as this is where LMM will get the 4 small bif maps and the loc/eng stuff from. It will just copy the required stuff into the MTWfiles folder of your map folder.

The BIF reader folder is required for the DOS call LMM makes to translate the 4 small map bmp's to bif's.

Note: You don't have to specify these 2 folders every time you run LMM - only the first time.

Barocca - I can't seem to find the 'special version' of BifReader (in "The Orgs" downloads) that RSW did for the DOS interface. I have a folder downloaded that was named 'RSW_read_bif_buf_v22a' - the Readbif.exe was dated 13th Dec 2002. I'll have to inform LMM users to download this version of BifReader, as opposed to other versions. Any ideas where it is?


It'll be another 2 days before I have the 2nd version ready.

barocca
01-16-2003, 11:08
i had it stored in my home drive,
just made a fresh version in upload folder
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloa....22a.zip (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload/RSW_read_bif_buf_v22a.zip)

includes readme's
readme22 (dos commands) and readme22a (pallette commands)

PanthaPower
01-17-2003, 12:33
Wellington,

sorry for the late response. I wasn't able to test anything the last two days.

Okay, back to your topic, some of the answers you asked for are being answered by some posts in the [b]Script files - can we collect our knowledge?[b] thread. So have a look at that too please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Concerning the tool, well, it would be really cool if you could implement that 2 different runs thing in your next beta-release. That would save a lot of time for changing scripts without changin the images. Concerning "jumping in" after already creating some BMP files, well, adding a castle, port, etc will not be too much of a problem for any serious modder I guess. And if not, we could just go for another full run.


To answer your findings on the translation of names, yes I also found that out taht it might become tricky. My idea is the following. I'll take the example you gave from Ilse de France:

"Ilse de France" in names.txt for the region_ID becomes "Netherlands"
" of Ilse de France" becomes " of %region_ID name%"
"The King/Eorl/Etc of France" becomes "The governor of %region_ID name%"
"chancellor of France" becomes "Chancellor of %region_ID name%"
"Paris Castle" becomes "%region_ID name% Castle"

I know that this will result in a very "basic" txt file but hey, it's at least better then changing everything by hand. IN the cases where you would really like to rename e.g. your castle to "Amsterdam Castle" things can still be done manually in the text files.

Concerning your question about more options to generate the script, well, I'm not sure at the moment. If you get the LukMap creation together with Border Attributes, etc plus the translation of names working, that would be cover most problems for modders already
One other thing I would like to see is that after the creation of the LukMaps, we will specify which provinces become rebel and which provinces are givin to which factions. After this step, the ultimate tool will even be able to make a clickable interface to select the different units available for each faction.

OKay, if you have any further question, let me know.

Panthapower

Wellington
01-17-2003, 20:06
A very quick update guys,

LMM PROVISIONAL VERSION 2
=========================

This should be ready and downloadable from the "The Org" tomorrow. I've now cracked most of the problems I was wrestling with in terms of maps. This 2nd prov version now provides correct BIF's for the 4 small maps (courtesy of RSW's BifReader - thanks RSW&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif that WORK in MTW ... you wont believe just HOW happy I was to see these maps (minimap/minilukup etc) showing up in MTW AND WORKING CORRECTLY

There are now 2 'run' modes working -
- a Map and Script run (do all the Maps and the Script work)
- a Script run (just do the Script work)

... and I may be able to get a "Test run" into this version (I'd like to add this - time providing). A "Test run" would merely validate features on the users Maps and create the "Ref_nnnnn" type reference stuff - but WITHOUT doing all of the CPU map processing. The idea being you can draw your features on your map and LMM would do a bit of processing and a bit of validation (NOT the full works of course) which would probably help solve 80% or so of initial errors in terms of the 'input map'. Anyway, if I can't get it into this version by tomorrow I WILL in the next prov version 3.

Not much progress in terms of translation unfortunately - I know how to do it (and have coded the 'framework' - which you'll see in version 2) but other issues have eaten away at time.

I'm now spending all my time on LMM's Script creation routines. I've solved many problems with how LMM was creating the Script file - but it's STILL not perfect. I've changed a lot of the Script creation routines in order for LMM to build all the Script keywords/paramters AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE to what we see in the 'early.txt'. Ok, maybe it's not important/relevant but if LMM follows the format of the CA provided Scripts that we KNOW works fine, it tends to eliminate potential testing for 'unknowns'. This all area of LMM providing a Script that, at least, shows up in the MTW Campaign panel is my major consideration at present (the translation stuff can all follow - once I'm happy LMM can generate test Scripts that MTW recognises).


Regardless of how much I manage to get incorporated into prov version 2 it WILL be released tomorrow - because having all 4 of the bif 'minimap type maps' is major progress (well .. for me it is&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and will help enormously in terms of feedback for version 3.

That's for all the info in the 'Scipts validation' thread. This is already helping me in respect of LMM generating correct/logical Script parameters.

Stay tuned - 24 hours.

barocca
01-18-2003, 00:11
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif barocca = one very happy modder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wellington
01-18-2003, 08:30
Another quick update,

LMM PROVISIONAL VERSION 2
=========================

The test run mode in NOW in LMM2. You can run in 3 modes -

1) "Test Map" run
- does 1 pass of the users map and creates all the "Ref_nnnn" stuff
2) "Map Script" run
- does multiple passes of the users map, creates all the "Ref_nnnn" stuff and all the MTW maps
- creates the Script/Xref files
3) "Script" run
- recreates the Script/Xref files (and incorporates any changes to such files)

In testing on my USA map (9 meg map, res = 2149x1472) these 3 runs take -

"Test map" run - 3 minutes
"Map/Script" run - 1 hour (sigh)
"Script" run - 1 minute


Barocca - version 1
===================

Can you remove the version 1 of LukMapMaker from the TEST downloads before I upload version 2. I won't be supporting version 1 and this should avoid confusion for new patrons who wish to download LMM.

DON'T remove the examples and DON'T remove the OCX.

Many Thanks,
Welly

barocca
01-19-2003, 02:31
will move it into the last backup directory now.
cheers,
B.

PS
please upload any test maps you have made,
cut into 2meg chunks and i will gather the pieces and "join" them together.

Wellington
01-19-2003, 18:00
LBMPaletteInOut in now available.

Check the thread "New Utility - LBM Colour palette ..." for details.

PanthaPower
01-20-2003, 10:53
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 19 2003,17:00)]LBMPaletteInOut in now available.

Check the thread "New Utility - LBM Colour palette ..." for details.
Thanks I tested it and it works great and quickly The palette.txt is also very easy to change manually which is great feauture

Wellington
01-21-2003, 00:06
LukMapMaker Provisional Version 2 (LMM2) is now released.

LMM2 is now on the Org's test downloads. It's named "TEST_LMM2_PROVISIONAL_VERSION.zip" and is around 320K. It contains the code/source, the required files and directory structure and a very small (for download considerations) test map called 'Islands' (well actually 2 test maps for 'Islands'&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Note: The provided example 'Islands' is very small and not really realistic. It's ONLY an example and is small to ensure you dont have long download waits.

You also have to download "TEST_LukMapMaker_GUI_OCX" (22K) (if you hav'nt already done this for the previous version of LukMapMaker).

There are also 2 extra map examples uploaded to "The Orgs" download secton for LMM2 -

1) TEST_LukMapMaker2_EXAMPLE_MiddleEast.zip (500k)
2) TEST_LukMapMaker2_EXAMPLE_USAref.zip (80k ... and this is a 2000x1500 image - see "Group mod making" below http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

There are also other LukMapMaker examples on the "The Orgs" test download that related to the prior version. These ARE compatable with LMM2.


LMM2 changes
============

Major changes/enhancements to LMM2 include -

- LMM2 now incorporates a 'water on land' feature
- LMM2 now creates the 4 small map BIF files required for new campaign maps (requires 2 'Browse for folder' dialogs)
- LMM2 now incorporates 3 types of processing ("run types")
- LMM2 has corrected several errors/bugs both in the map processing and the Script file generation.
- LMM2 now incorporates a structure for "Group mod making" (see the readme.txt in the 'USAref' example file for details).
The original examples for the 1st version of LukMapMaker can still be used in LMM2.


Note: Some new functionality in LMM2 (pertaining to Loc/Eng files that require translation) is NOT yet fully incorporated. Don't worry about this yet.


If you have downloaded the previous version
===========================================

LMM2 should be considered as a totally different release to the previous version. If you have downloaded LukMapMaker version 1 DO NOT TRY TO INCORPORATE LMM2 INTO your existing structure. The correct approach is to create a new folder for LMM2 and then copy any existing examples/maps from your existing LukMapMaker map folders (together with any specific 'Parameters.txt' and 'Factions.txt' files) into LMM2's structure.

If you do this ensure you run your existing maps/examples via the LMM2 "Test Map" runtype, as certain parameters in your existing "Parameters.txt" may now be obsolete in LMM2.


Problems
========

Any problems/questions/queries please reply to this thread. I know the documentation is'nt as good as I wanted it to be - BUT good documentation takes twice as long as coding and testing


Next release
============

The next release of LukMapMaker (LMM3) will probably be in 2 weeks time. This release will (I hope&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif solve the remaining issues still outstanding in this LMM2 release, these being -

- creating true LBM's, instead of BMP's for the LukMap/LukMap2 files.
- incorporating the translation of various fields in various LOC/ENG files
- include an installer feature for LMM3 created files
- resolve the 'MAJOR problem' when creating new Script files (see the Script thread)
- incorporate more error processing/validation for the "Test Map" runs of LMM.


For now, you will have to convert the 'bmp created versions of LukMap/LukMap2 to 'lbm's via Grafx2 or a similar product and then use LBMPaletteInOut to Import the LukMapMaker palette ("LBMPalette.txt") into your new 'lbm's.


Ok, if you've no idea what I'm talking about - don't worry LMM will eventually do 'everything' for you in terms of the requirements for new Campaigns in MTW.

Give it a try - let me know what bugs/documentation errors/confusion you run across.

regards,
Welly

PanthaPower
01-21-2003, 00:35
Wellington,

many thanks again. I'll look into the LMM v2 and post you my findings.

dr3mew3vr
01-21-2003, 10:29
Great Downloading now and will try out soon. I saw the Middle East map in the downloads, but I didn't see the USA map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Keep up the good work Wellington.

Wellington
01-21-2003, 11:38
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 21 2003,03:29)]Great Downloading now and will try out soon. I saw the Middle East map in the downloads, but I didn't see the USA map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Keep up the good work Wellington.
The USAref example isnt in the downloads yet as I'm writing a readme for it.

It's a special type of map that demonstrates the idea of using LMM for "group modding" - a group of people working on the same mod.

Bear with me - I'll upload it by tonight.

Glad you like LMM http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif - we'll get there (eventually)

PanthaPower
01-21-2003, 12:37
Wellington,

some small things which caught my eye first while I had a quick look at it at work.

1) Everytime I run the LMM2, I get the message "Warning: The creation date for "Readbif.exe" (13-12-2002 20:38:22), is NOT as expected (13/12/2002 20:38:22)." As you can see, I have the right date but your program doesn't seem to work with different date notations. I know it is not a stopper but if you could fix it in version 3, THANKS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

2) It might be a good idea to state the options for factions in the factions.txt. It is a bit prone for errors in my opinion. It would be enough to copy some info from the Early.txt and slighty modify it (like FN_ENGLISH becomes ENGLISH)

3) After running the option "Start Test Map" it would be nice if the menu would pop-up again to run the "Start Map/Script" option. Now after it has finished, you see it's finished in the screen-log but the button only states Cancel. When you hit cancel, the program exits. If easily done for version three, you could make two buttons after one of the three runs is finished. One button would be "Exit" and the other "Main Menu".

Pantahpower

Wellington
01-21-2003, 19:53
PanthaPower,

In reply to your points -

1) Sigh ... I'm an idiot. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I knew about this and was intending making the check-date a Parameter so it could be amended according to country specific notations. For now it's quite easy to change the program. so -

Right click on LukMapMaker and choose edit (Notepad) to edit the source. On line 34 is the date constant -

Const ExpectedBRDate = "13/12/2002 20:38:22"

Just change this to -

Const ExpectedBRDate = "13-12-2002 20:38:22"

save the .vbs file and it should be ok.
(I specifically put this date constant at the top of the program to remind me ... I still forgot&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

2) Yes, good point. I've just changed this file to add a RegionOwner= parameter in order to create more 'correct' scripts. I'll probably rehash all the documentation for the next release.

3) I don't follow you here There is no point in doing a "Map/Script" run immediately after a "Test Map" run. The reason being the "Map/Script" run does EVERYTHING that the "Map/Script" and "Script" runs do. Hence if you just want to do a "Map/Script" run - there's no point in doing a "Test Map" run immediately before it.

The idea is that users will (when creating a new map) first do several "Map Test" runs, just to get an 'error free as possible' map completed by refereing to the "Ref_" files the "Test Map" run creates (remember - a "Map/Script run ALSO produces this "Ref_" files). Once the map looks ok and appears to be error free, do a "Map/Script" run to create all the required MTW maps. The "Script" run is limited at present but is only concerend with creating a new Script.txt based on changes to the various files
- factions.txt
- parameters.txt
- regionnames.txt
- translationmasks.txt (not yet implemented)

Hope that makes sense

Welly

Wellington
01-21-2003, 19:59
Panthapower,

I forgot to say - check out the 'Xref*.txt' files in the LMMfiles directory. A different one is produced depedning on the run type (as different run types have slightly different information available to them). The importtant one is the "XrefMS.txt" whioch is produced by the big run - "Map/Script". These files should contain the info you where requesting in a previous post.

Welly

MR EGG
01-21-2003, 21:44
Hello Welly
got LMM2 to run got the same error message as P.P but it still ran fine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif did the file changes and put in to the MTW Textures/campmap file ,loaded the game and got intmap error http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I forgot to mention i had resized the map before I ran LMM2.This is ground breaking stuff Welly cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-22-2003, 05:03
HOUSTEN - WE HAVE LIFT OFF

Brief update -

LMM2 generated 'Script.txt' - CRACKED IT
LMM2 generated mini BIF's (that don't always work in MTW) - CRACKED IT

You may be reading this and be somewhat less impressed that I am Never mind. I said the next release would be in 2 weeks time (that's what I expected it would take to resolve some of the outstanding issues) - I WAS WRONG - they are resolved NOW

Tomorrow I'll be uploading a new version of LMM but I'll be changing the name from 'Provisional' to 'Beta'. This name change reflects the confidence/euphoria that I feel in terms of this next (albeit rather quick) release.

It also reflects the progress I've made in the last 2 days (you have to appreciate that when programming a 'new area' you can spend days/weeks with very little discernable progress - then SUDDENLY many things fall into place and the 'grey area' suddenly becomes a 'sphere of enlightenment'&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Tommorrow a new version. No major changes to LMM2 - just 1 new file, some more parameters for 'Factions.txt' and a new version of 'LukMapMaker.vbs'.

Ok, maybe you don't care - However please upgrade your existing versions with the new 'Beta' version tomorrow.

As the North American Indians used to say - "Today is a good day to die"

Don't do it Wait until tomorrow

Welly

PanthaPower
01-22-2003, 10:06
Wellington,

sounds like real good news I hope you will be uploading this Beta asap so that I can have a look at it Do I read from your lines that your script works now and that the script info could be pasted 1on1 to an early.txt? Or maybe even run in MTW straight away? Have you had a (so far) complete stable game running? Please give a small comment on this if you find two seconds.

I also have another problem with the LMM2. On two of my machines it works okay but at another one I experienced a problem. I accidently had an old version of the BIFReader. I pointed LMM at it and ran LMM. Ofcourse it said it was not the right version. So I downloaded the right version but still no go in LMM. I scanned for the registry but couldn't find why LMM still thinks I have the old BifReader. I made the LMM program find the BifReader directory again, rebooted my machine to be sure, started LMM and again it says that the BifReader I use is old. Well, I though it might just be a small error so I continued. But while LMM is running, I sudenly get a VBS error and the program stops. This happens everytime I run the program on that PC. It has Windows20000 on it by the way and your LMM1 worked fine on it. Could it be that the error is caused because your "paths.txt doesn't use quotes to allow spaces in my directory name structure? (putting everything between quotes in your text file results only in LMM asking for the right directorys again) Might it be possible that an old instance of the BifReader is available somewhere else on the harddisk and Windows might see that one as the default one? I'm at work and cannot check my theory now.

Here's some screenshots which should contain all the info you need.. Ask for more details if needed okay?

Panthapower.

http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/11887/1.jpg


http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/11888/2.jpg

Wellington
01-22-2003, 15:29
PP,

Yes. The Script now worksok insomuch as it shows up in the MTW campaign map. I changed a few things in the Script generation to try to "order" the various keywqords as close ly as possible to the Early.txt order.

There was another BUG in this. Check the LMM2 generated Script for the "SetActiveFaction::" lines. LMM generates FN_MAJOR - it should generate FT_MAJOR Sorry ... I missed it This is corrected in the BETA version.

I've now some succes with a game that uses the LMM bifs and Script together with the original MTW LukMaps and Maptex stuff. I still get a my own smaller Maptex.tga's working but I'm playing with this area at present.

I've not tested all combinations of the LMM stuff with the original MTW stuff because I've been concentrating on the code - the theory being if I get something out (BETA LMM3 - arriving tonight hopefully) that gets us to the point where we can all start testing we'll have more info. In other words I've spent more time testing LMM than testing LMM's generated stuff in MTW. Hopefully you guys will be doing some testing with LMM3 and I hope to receive some feedback on this.

This may sound like a "you do my testing for me" approach but the fact is I'm rushing to get something usable out ASAP because there a few people involved in new campaigns at present. Let's get something working 1st - the icing on the cake (Script editor/proper GUI/VB6 exectable) can come later.

A quick look at your problem suggest you may NOT have the latest version of WSH (Windows Script Host) on that PC (you need version 5.6 - downloaded from Microsoft MSDN). The "shell" is WSH object that may not be implemented on the version of WSH you have on that PC.

The version of Readbif.exe your using is NOT correct It may or may not work. I can't test all versions of Bifreader therefore my approach is use the one that works - and keep it in a seperate directory just for LMM. Bear in mind Bifreader does'nt issue errors so LMM has no idea whether the DOS calls to Bifreader have worked or not. The version I KNOW WORKS is dated 13/12/2002 - Barocca post a link to this version in this thread. I'd change it if I was you - read the FAQ also.

As regards the 2 paths - NO QUOTES. If you have any problems just delete the "Paths.txt" file and you'll be pronpted for the 2 "Browse for Folders" next time you run LMM.

Back to LMM3

Welly

PanthaPower
01-22-2003, 16:10
Wellington,

thanks for the answer. I'm looking forward to your LMM3 later this evening (hopefully).

I will check my WSH version and hopefully it will solve some problems. But about the BifReader, I guess you didn't read it correctly. As you can see in the attached imaged in my previous post, I DO use the correct BifReader. Check the date in the screenshot.... that's why I was so puzzled. And yes, I've thrown away the paths.txt and when I start LMM2 and point it at the MTW and BifReader directory it still says I have an old version.... I don't understand why... I three-double checked evything, downloaded the BifReader from the link in your installations.txt and still it doesn't work... I'm considered to be a computer specialist, sitting with my nose in complex server environments all day but still cannot figure out this small little error.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif Drives me nuts...

I just pray LMM3 doesn't have the problem anymore because I'm not going to reinstall my (main) pc for this.

Wellington
01-22-2003, 17:03
PP,

Now I'm confused also.

If you check the LMM source (do a find for the string "DateCreated")
the following line returns the creation date of the file (in this case readbif.exe).

"BRDate = MyFile.DateCreated"

However, the creation date on your version of readbif.exe looks a 'last accessed'
date (last night?). Did you open readbif.exe with a Hex Editor last night? If
so, it may have changed the date. Try this ...

Copy the following lines into a text file, change the path in the 1st line
to reflect your path to readbif.exe, save the text file as "CheckDate.vbs"
then run it ..


' start of code
file = "C:\RSW_read_bif_buf_v22a\readbif.exe"
Msgbox ShowFileInfo(file)
Function ShowFileInfo(filespec)
Dim fso, f, c, m, a
Set fso = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
Set f = fso.GetFile(filespec)
c = "Created : " & f.DateCreated
m = "Modified: " & f.DateLastModified
a = "Accessed: " & f.DateLastAccessed
ShowFileInfo = "Dates for - " & filespec & vbcrlf & vbcrlf & c & vbcrlf & m & vbcrlf & a
End Function
' end of code



Now right click on the actually file readbif.exe and check the dates displayed
via 'Properties'. Do they match the dates from the VBS prog? If not, you may
have hit a bug with your version of WSH. If they DO match, and both dates show
1/21/2003 then SOMETHING has changed the creation date in this exe.

Anyway, I've also noticed that your pc is configured with PM on the time so this
would eb a problem for LMM. I'll have to change this area of LMM anyway (maybe check
the date but NOT the time).

I'll look into this. Maybe I'll disable all this date checking of readbif.exe
in LMM3. Let me know if any thoughts spring to mind re this.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-22-2003, 17:22
Wellington,

thanks a lot for the tips. I will check them tomorrow evening when I'm able to check that PC (I live in two different cities at the same time).
And about me opening the ReadBif.exe with a hexeditor, no I didn't do that. Downloading the file from the Org and extracting it straight into this folder still gives this message. I've beens searching through the registry for clues but no luck...

I'll report the test results tomorrow evening.

Thanks again,
P.P.

Wellington
01-22-2003, 18:59
P.P.

I just re-read your original post regarding ...

"Do I read from your lines that your script works now and that the script info could be pasted 1on1 to an early.txt?"

... and I think I should clarify. Two points -

1) Yes - the LMM generated Script now "shows up" in the MTW campaign screen and works ok.

2) I don't understand why you would wish to 'paste' the LMM Script.txt into an existing Early/High/Late file.


Further to 2) - The whole idea of LMM generating a 'Script.txt' is to get a Script working in MTW that is -

a) directly related to the 'features' drawn onto your map
b) is amendable by changing the various LMM files relating to Script's (and then doing a quick "Script" run of LMM)
c) will show up immediately in the MTW campaign map panel

The Script that LMM generates will need amendment - depending on your specific mod - but the basic idea is to ENSURE that LMM generates something that is 'acceptable' to MTW whilst not complete/finished. Think of the Script.txt file as a 'working template' that can be added to. Eventually I'll write an "LMM Script generated GUI Editor" that will take us further down this road.

I can't see why you wish to cut and paste Scripts. Ok, I have done a LOT of this over the last week or so for testing in order to ensure the 'Script.txt' shows up in MTW - and it does in LMM3.

Now it shows up in LMM3 there should be no need to cut and paste between Script.txt and the other Early/High/Late files in the 'startpos' folder.

One final point -

Just because LMM manages to generate a Script.txt that shows up in the MTW campaign screen DOES'NT mean the Script.txt is error free All it means is that THE MTW ENGINE/SCRIPT VALIDATION ROUTINES think (I say again - THINK&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif that it is error free

There is a BIG difference between those two statements, and LMM will probably have to do more validation of generated Scripts in future release. It's just ONE hurdle overcome in MTW campaign modding.

Just thought I'd clarify ...

.. back to the LMM3 release

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-22-2003, 21:10
Wow. You are the man Wellington. I haven't had time to check out version 2 yet, and you already have version 3 beta coming out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif I'm glad that you are in the "zone" of enlightenment on this one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'll probably do some testing of this on the weekend. Great job again, u deserve a huge thx for this one.

Wellington
01-22-2003, 21:43
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 22 2003,14:10)]Wow. You are the man Wellington. I haven't had time to check out version 2 yet, and you already have version 3 beta coming out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif I'm glad that you are in the "zone" of enlightenment on this one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'll probably do some testing of this on the weekend. Great job again, u deserve a huge thx for this one.
Thanks for that - any encouragement is welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

However, LMM3 will be dependent on the structure of LMM2. In other words you cannot 'jump' from LMM1 to LMM3.

LMM2 changed the structure, and required you to install LMM2 as a 'seperate utility' and then move any specific maps/folders/files from LMM1 to the structure required by LMM2.

LMM3 relies on the structure of LMM2 and should really be seen as a "major upgrade to LMM2". It only has 1 new file (a BIF palette for the minimap stuff), a new keyword/parmetrte in the 'Factions.txt' file and a new 'LukMapMaker.vbs' program. Ok, it also changes a couple of parameters in "Parameters.txt" and generates another "Ref_xxxxxx" type file.

I don't think I'll release it tonight as I'm tired and I don't want to release it with 'silly errors'. Also, the introduction of a new file fil;e and mpre parmeters in "Factions.txt" means I have to fully test the error/warning messages that LMM generates.

Sorry .. but it's going to be tomorrow.

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-22-2003, 23:29
Quote[/b] ]I don't think I'll release it tonight as I'm tired and I don't want to release it with 'silly errors'. Also, the introduction of a new file fil;e and mpre parmeters in "Factions.txt" means I have to fully test the error/warning messages that LMM generates.

Sorry .. but it's going to be tomorrow.
Apology unnecessary. Take your time, I'm sure none of us would want you to rush into a release.

barocca
01-23-2003, 09:59
Wellington,

to avoid ALL bifreader errors please INCLUDE a copy of bif reader as an integral part of LMM,

it only adds 160K to the download and eliminates all possible bifreader errors.

B.

dr3mew3vr
01-23-2003, 10:23
Hey all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif If anyone is interested, I made a LBMPalette.txt that has the same color palette as Mithel's Image Converter program. The reason why I did this, is because, imho, I think the colors are grouped into similar colortones better than the default one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I have images of the MTW campaign lukmap with this color palette and region ids if anyone is interested to see how it looks. I made two separate images for sea and land regions...the black areas are just stuff I blocked out for visibility.Image Converter palette pics (http://www.geocities.com/dr3mew3vr/mtweditting1.html)

Here's the changed LBMPalette...
000 255,0,255 // PINK
001 0,255,255 // TURQUOISE ...Mithel's ImageConverter110 default--maroon 143,63,63
002 147,67,67
003 155,71,71
004 163,79,79
005 171,83,83
006 179,91,91
007 187,99,99
008 195,103,103
009 199,111,111
010 207,119,119
011 215,123,123
012 223,131,131
013 231,139,139
014 239,147,147
015 247,155,155
016 123,111,91
017 127,115,95
018 135,123,103
019 143,131,111
020 151,139,119
021 159,143,123
022 167,151,131
023 175,159,139
024 183,167,147
025 187,171,155
026 195,179,163
027 203,187,167
028 211,195,179
029 219,203,187
030 227,211,195
031 235,219,203
032 51,115,23
033 55,119,27
034 63,127,27
035 71,135,35
036 79,143,39
037 87,151,43
038 95,155,47
039 103,163,55
040 115,171,59
041 123,179,67
042 131,187,71
043 143,191,79
044 151,199,83
045 163,207,91
046 171,215,99
047 183,223,107
048 131,0,0
049 139,0,0
050 147,0,0
051 155,0,0
052 163,0,0
053 171,0,0
054 179,0,0
055 187,0,0
056 195,0,0
057 203,0,0
058 211,0,0
059 219,0,0
060 227,0,0
061 235,0,0
062 247,0,0
063 255,0,0
064 27,27,115
065 31,31,123
066 35,35,131
067 43,43,143
068 51,47,151
069 59,55,159
070 67,63,171
071 75,71,179
072 83,79,187
073 91,87,199
074 99,99,207
075 111,107,215
076 119,115,227
077 131,127,235
078 143,139,243
079 155,151,255
080 131,131,35
081 139,139,35
082 147,147,39
083 155,155,39
084 163,163,43
085 171,171,43
086 179,179,47
087 187,187,47
088 195,195,51
089 203,203,55
090 211,211,55
091 219,219,59
092 227,227,59
093 235,235,59
094 247,247,63
095 255,255,67
096 83,67,115
097 91,71,123
098 99,79,131
099 107,87,143
100 115,95,151
101 123,99,159
102 131,107,171
103 139,115,179
104 147,123,187
105 155,131,199
106 163,139,207
107 175,147,215
108 183,155,227
109 191,163,235
110 199,175,243
111 211,183,255
112 135,99,51
113 143,103,55
114 151,111,59
115 159,119,63
116 167,127,67
117 175,135,71
118 183,147,75
119 191,155,79
120 199,163,83
121 207,171,87
122 215,179,91
123 223,187,99
124 231,199,103
125 239,207,107
126 247,215,111
127 255,227,119
128 63,107,63
129 67,111,67
130 75,119,75
131 83,123,83
132 87,131,87
133 95,139,95
134 103,143,103
135 111,151,111
136 119,155,119
137 127,163,127
138 139,171,139
139 147,175,147
140 155,183,155
141 167,187,167
142 175,195,175
143 187,203,187
144 119,67,67
145 123,71,71
146 131,79,79
147 135,83,83
148 143,91,91
149 147,99,99
150 155,107,107
151 159,115,115
152 167,123,123
153 171,131,131
154 179,139,139
155 183,147,147
156 191,159,159
157 199,167,167
158 203,175,175
159 211,187,187
160 107,63,107
161 111,67,111
162 119,75,119
163 127,83,127
164 131,87,131
165 139,95,139
166 147,103,147
167 151,111,151
168 159,119,159
169 167,127,167
170 171,139,171
171 179,147,179
172 187,155,187
173 191,167,191
174 199,175,199
175 207,187,207
176 63,107,107
177 67,111,111
178 75,119,119
179 83,123,123
180 87,131,131
181 95,139,139
182 103,143,143
183 111,151,151
184 119,155,155
185 127,163,163
186 139,171,171
187 147,175,175
188 155,183,183
189 167,187,187
190 175,195,195
191 187,203,203
192 67,67,111
193 71,71,115
194 79,79,123
195 83,83,127
196 91,91,135
197 99,99,139
198 107,107,147
199 115,115,151
200 123,123,159 // Land UNUSED
201 131,131,163 // Land UNUSED
202 139,139,171 // Land UNUSED
203 147,147,175 // Land UNUSED
204 159,159,183 // Land UNUSED
205 167,167,191 // Land UNUSED
206 175,175,195 // Land UNUSED
207 187,187,203 // Land UNUSED
208 171,91,19 // Land UNUSED
209 175,95,23 // Land UNUSED
210 179,99,31 // Land UNUSED
211 187,107,35 // Land UNUSED
212 191,111,43 // Land UNUSED
213 199,119,51 // Land UNUSED
214 203,127,59 // Land UNUSED
215 207,131,67 // Land UNUSED
216 215,139,75
217 219,147,83
218 227,155,91
219 231,163,103
220 235,171,111
221 243,179,119
222 247,183,131
223 255,195,143
224 119,71,51
225 127,75,55
226 135,87,63
227 143,95,71
228 155,103,79
229 163,111,87
230 171,119,95
231 179,131,103
232 191,139,115
233 199,151,123
234 207,159,135
235 219,171,143
236 227,179,155
237 235,191,167
238 243,203,179
239 255,215,191
240 107,107,107
241 115,115,115
242 123,123,123
243 131,131,131
244 139,139,139
245 151,151,151
246 159,159,159
247 167,167,167
248 175,175,175
249 183,183,183
250 195,195,195
251 0,0,0 // Mithel's ImageConverter110 default--turquoise 0,255,255
252 0,0,0 // Sea UNUSED, Mithel's ImageConverter110 default--turquoise 0,255,255
253 0,0,0 // Sea UNUSED, Mithel's ImageConverter110 default--turquoise 0,255,255
254 0,0,0 // Sea UNUSED, Mithel's ImageConverter110 default--turquoise 0,255,255
255 239,239,239 // Sea UNUSED

Wellington
01-23-2003, 11:18
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 23 2003,02:59)]Wellington,

to avoid ALL bifreader errors please INCLUDE a copy of bif reader as an integral part of LMM,

it only adds 160K to the download and eliminates all possible bifreader errors.

B.
Barocca,

Great. I was'nt sure if RSW would be happy with me including his stuff in the LMM download. This would make things a LOT easier and I'll implement this in LMM4.

I can't do for LMM3 as I'm finalising this release now (just finishing the testing) and including BifReader in the LMM download will mean changing code and the folder structure of LMM - therefore, I'll do it for LMM4.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 15:30
Wellington,

thanks for the reply.

I don't have too much time so I'll answer quickly.

Good news that in LMm3, the automatic generated script will at least show up in MTW And to answer your question on why I would want to copy the script file code to an early.txt by hand. Well, I can be simple about that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif In LMM1 and LMM2, the script didn't appear in MTW so I needed to copy paste every paragraph of the script into an early.txt and test to see where the errors are in. It is time consuming so that's why I aksed if LMM3 now generates scripts which work straight away in MTW. Not because I want to do it manually.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Well, I'm looking forward to LMM3 and I'm curious to find out how error free the script is now.

P.P.

Wellington
01-23-2003, 15:54
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 23 2003,08:30)]Wellington,

thanks for the reply.

I don't have too much time so I'll answer quickly.

Good news that in LMm3, the automatic generated script will at least show up in MTW And to answer your question on why I would want to copy the script file code to an early.txt by hand. Well, I can be simple about that one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif In LMM1 and LMM2, the script didn't appear in MTW so I needed to copy paste every paragraph of the script into an early.txt and test to see where the errors are in. It is time consuming so that's why I aksed if LMM3 now generates scripts which work straight away in MTW. Not because I want to do it manually.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Well, I'm looking forward to LMM3 and I'm curious to find out how error free the script is now.

P.P.
Aahhh

I understand now That's exactly what I was doing - copying and pasting from 1 to another to see where the errors.

Yes. In LMM3 the Script shows up AND you can progress to the campaign game - although it locks up after 10 turns or so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif ... still it's progress insomuch that LMM now frees you from the hassle of getting a 'workable' Script

I have problems with the LMM generated LukMaps. I think I know what the problem is but I have to do some re-coding and re-testing. If I can get it done quickly I'll incorporate it into LMM3 - if not it will have to for LMM3.

Whatever, LMM3 is being released tonight.

Question for anyone - What do use to convert the a .bmp to a .tga? I've been using "Microsoft Picture It Publishingh 2001" but MTW does'nt like the maptex2.tga that is created by this MS product. In fact when I load the original 35meg maptex2.tga in Picture and then just save it as a tga it becomes 12meg What happened to the other 20meg?

Anyone advice on tga's would be most welcome.

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 16:15
Wellington,

I don't know that program you use for converting the BMP to TGA. One thing you have to make sure though is NOT using any kind of compression So e.g. no RLE (Run Length Encoding). MTW doesn't know how to handle that.

If I recall correctly using ACDsee doesn't screw things up. Adobe Photoshop doesn't screw up either.

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 16:23
Wellington,

I read your post again and forgot to talk about your "10-turn-crash". Well, this is as far as some of us came. Hope we can get the LMM beyond this point with joint effort.

When you realease lmm3 today, I will run a conversion and test the script. I have a free evening today (=rare http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif) so if things are uploaded in the beginning of the evening I can still play around with the script.

P.P.

Wellington
01-23-2003, 19:05
LMM3 is now available and on "The Org's" TEST downloads area. Think of this release as an upgrade to LMM2 (which you MUST have already installed) which gets us a lot further down the read.

The file -

TEST_LMM3_BETA_VERSION.zip - 50K

Read the LMM3 readme carefully.


I've also downloaded the original Britain example map for anyone who wants to create the maptex.tga/maptex2.tga from this map -

TEST_LMM3_EXAMPLE_Britain_Original.zip - 569K



Any problems let me know.

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 21:15
Wellington,

I downloaded your tool and implemented it in the LMM2. I have a problem now though. When I run the Britain map/script run, I get an error afte processing the line "20:27:06 (MS) Init: reading "BIFPalette.txt" parameters ..." from the message.log. The error.log says:

20:27:06 Error: Invalid keyword ("WriteXrefTxt") specified in "Parameters.txt"
20:27:06 Error: Invalid keyword ("WriteDicsTxt") specified in "Parameters.txt"
20:27:06 Error: Invalid keyword ("SETGoods") specified in "Parameters.txt"
20:27:06 Error: Invalid keyword ("SETResources") specified in "Parameters.txt"

The error that pops up on my screen is:

Line: 3300
Char: 5
Error: This key is already associated with an element of this collection
Code: 800A01C9
Source: VBScript runtime error

What I did now was testing my saved copy of LMM2 (seperate directory ofcourse) and it still ran correctly. I went back to LMM3 and checked if LBMPalette and BIFPallette are both in the Default directory. That is also the case and they are the corect new dates.

Reading your Readme brought me to maybe one clue. You say that key "OriginPortColour=(0,255,255)" has been changed in the Parameters.txt. Well, in my parameters.txt there is no such line. Adding it didn't work either. Did you make a new parameter.txt and forgot to upload it?

P.P.

Wellington
01-23-2003, 21:29
Yes, I did - but it was only an example Parameters.txt

Ok,

1) Just ignore the 4 errors and remove the 4 keywords from whatever copies of parameters.txt you have (I've removed these 4 keywords from parameters.txt - no longer required)

2)the crash your getting is something I changed at the last minute, so here is the solution for now - don't use the LBMPalette.txt I downloaded (yet) as the code assumes that this file has unique colours - the slots 251 to 254 are NOT unique so just change them - maybe ...

251 1,255,255
252 2,255,255
253 3,255,255
254 4,255,255

... that's what I've just done in my version of LMM3.

3) The "OriginPortColour=(r,g,b)" is just a new way to speficy the "Turquoise" colour - instead of coding it in slot 2 of LBMPalette.txt .... you will only require this paramter if, for whatever reason, you decide to a different colour than the 0,255,255 that LMM defaults to.

You should be ok with those changes - sorry

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 21:35
Thanks for the quick reply You were waiting for replies on your topic huh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, a quick reply deserves some quick feedback http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, I changed what you wrote above and LMM3 is now running at my pc

THANKS

P.P.

Wellington
01-23-2003, 21:43
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 23 2003,14:35)]Thanks for the quick reply You were waiting for replies on your topic huh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, a quick reply deserves some quick feedback http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, I changed what you wrote above and LMM3 is now running at my pc

THANKS

P.P.
I spotted the problem 15 minutes after I released LMM Sigh ... such is life.

I'm going to write a lengthy writeup and post it to this thread - later tonight or maybe tomorrow - and I'll try to explain 1 or 2 things a bit better. I'm sure it will useful as LMM3 gets us to the position in MTW where we can test/investigate more stuff.

For now I'm watching this thread every 30 min's or so ...

PanthaPower
01-23-2003, 21:57
Ah, doesn't matter. I'm happy you released it so that some testing can begin. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I finished running the script and now converting the BMP'a to TGA's and LBM's.

I will go out for a drink with a friend now but I will post some finding later on when I come home. I'm curious to see how far it runs in MTW.

MR EGG
01-23-2003, 23:08
Hello Welly when I run start test map in LMM3 with the Britain map I get the following error message:
Line:794
Char:3
Stream read error
Code:8000FFFF
source:cslmage file trial manage
It's probably something I'm doing wrong but can't figure it out
Cheers M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Wellington
01-24-2003, 00:37
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 23 2003,16:08)]Hello Welly when I run start test map in LMM3 with the Britain map I get the following error message:
Line:794
Char:3
Stream read error
Code:8000FFFF
source:cslmage file trial manage
It's probably something I'm doing wrong but can't figure it out
Cheers M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Mr Egg,

This error is being returned by the Graphics/Imaging program that LMM uses. This program

is being passed a path/file, by LMM.

The error message is being issued by "csImageFileTrial.dll" LMM is asking this Graphics

DLL to load the file (presumably 'Britain.bmp)' into memory.

The message says "I don't understand - something's wrong here". What does'nt it

understand? Well, either the path is not good or the file is not an image type that it

recognises.

3 questions -

Q1: Is your trial version of "csImageFileTrial.dll" still valid or has it expired?
Q2: Have you tried the 'Britain.bmp' example before this LMM3 version? (with LMM1/LMM2)

Did it work ok?
Q3: Are you 100% sure that the 'Britain.bmp' IS a Windows '.bmp'?


Could you try the following. Ok, I know you probably know much/all of the following but

just for the purpose of supporting LMM3 please bear with me.

Open the file "LukMapMaker.vbs" in Notepad (right click on it and select 'edit&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Make

sure wordwrap is off (in Notepads 'Format&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif then use 'Edit' goto... (or Ctrl+G) to goto

line 794 of the code.

This is a small subroutine, the code is -

...
Sub LoadAndCopyMap()
Dim fromfile
Call WriteMsg(0,"Main: loading """ & MapName & """ map ...")
fromfile = RefPath & Mapname
Source.ReadFile fromfile
W = Source.Width
H = Source.Height
Call WriteMsg(0,"Main: ... mapsize = " & W & "x" & H)
Image.NewImage W, H, Colour_white
End Sub
...


Your problem is with line 794 - "Source.ReadFile fromfile". The Graphics package is

really saying something like 'This is not a good path' or 'This is not an image file I

recognise'

DO the following. Insert a message box. Insert the following line "MsgBox RefPath &

Mapname" immediately above the line in error. The 3 lines in your subroutine will then

read -

...
fromfile = RefPath & Mapname
MsgBox = RefPath & Mapname
Source.ReadFile fromfile
...


Run it again. The program will stop when it reaches the Msgbox line. Is the displayed

path a good Windows pathname? Is it the correct pathname pertaining to your 'Britain.bmp'

file?

Post the EXACT line as displayed into this thread and I'll have a look at it.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 00:50
Wellington,

I tried all my tricks but I cannot find a way to create a good Lukmap.LBM from the BMP file that the LMM3 provides. I never had problems with it and still haven't when I use the ofical LBM pallette on other LBM files I made (based on the original pallette). But somehow the new BMP in combination with the pallette you used in LBMPallette.txt doesn't seem to work with Mithel's conversion tool. It creates a file but totally messes up...

Wellington, could you do me a favour and tell me what software/procedure you use to create working LBM's for LMM3?

I tried running the LMM3 made files in MTW. Everything looks good (faction select screen) but when the campaign map loads, I get a unknown error which is because of the lukmap problems I have.

P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 01:12
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 23 2003,17:50)]Wellington,

I tried all my tricks but I cannot find a way to create a good Lukmap.LBM from the BMP file that the LMM3 provides. I never had problems with it and still haven't when I use the ofical LBM pallette on other LBM files I made (based on the original pallette). But somehow the new BMP in combination with the pallette you used in LBMPallette.txt doesn't seem to work with Mithel's conversion tool. It creates a file but totally messes up...

Wellington, could you do me a favour and tell me what software/procedure you use to create working LBM's for LMM3?

I tried running the LMM3 made files in MTW. Everything looks good (faction select screen) but when the campaign map loads, I get a unknown error which is because of the lukmap problems I have.

P.P.
I also have problems with LBM's and TGA's. They are a real hsow-stopper at times.

At present, for LBM's, I use the Grafx2 DOS product (downloadable from the Org) to convert the BMP's to LBM's - is a perfect conversion NO It still f**k's up but at least it usable within MTW. After converting I use LBMPaletteInOut to correct the LBM's Palette.

With TGA's ... I've given up. NOTHING I've got, own, downloaded, creates good tga's.

Therefore, at present I'm using the ORIGINAL TGA's in MTW (the big ones) together with the specific Britain LBM created by Grafx2. This 'silly combination' DOES work to some extent - although the graphics ar'nt brilliant.

Try thaty approach. Barroca can give better advice regarding grafx2 - ARE YOU LISTENING BAROCCA ... WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU

(anyway, I'm toying with the idea of LMM writing the LBM's directly - I now have the file formats for LBM's so I now know how to do it)

Try the above approach and just remember P.P. - if this was easy then EVERYONE would be doing it

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 01:23
Thanks Wellington.

I did a search on the Org and found the utility but the link is dead... Would you be able to uypload the program to the section where you also upload the LMM files?

And, ofcourse I know that if this would be easy, everyone would do it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But trying to crack the nut is giving me lots of fun (and frustration sometimes) and hopefully soon, SATISFACTION
Anyway, I hope you can upload the GFX2 program so that I can run another test. If not, I will have to try and find another way of converting the BMP to LBM. My TGA files seem okay though.

Thanks,
P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 01:42
Gfx2 downloadable from the Org -

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Tools/gfx2b965.zip

It's an archaic program and DOES'NT produce perfect LBMN's but they DO show up in MTW.

What I did -

1) install gfx2
2) copy the 2 .bmp lukmaps to the gfx2 folder
3) start gfx2, click the open 'bit'
4) open the .bmps
5) select the .bmp file
6) change the filetype to .lbm
7) change the name to lukmap (or lukmap2)
8) save it
9) exit gfx2
10) start gfx2 again and doi the same for the other .bmp lukmap

After this 'nightmare of interfaces' copy the .lbms to your LBMPalettInOut - put a good palette into them and copy to MTW.

With the TGA's - ok your TGA's may work (MINE DON'T&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but it may be better to just leave the existing MTW maptex/maptex2 tga's in place for now. If we try to change everything at once we have no idea where the problem lies when we hit a problem. One thing at a time is a wise approach.

Bear in mind the standard MTW error is "Unknowm Error 0 (00000)" ...... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

With such 'professional' error messages we have no chance unless we take one small step at a time (which is one of the reasons for continual versiona of LMM - to overcome 1 hurdle then approach the next. Slow but wise

Barocca knows a lot about gfx2 and can probably provide us with workable - though not pewrfect .LBMS for the LMM test maps. Barocca are you listening? In the words of Pink Floyd ... "Is there anybody out there?"

Wellington
01-24-2003, 02:06
PP

GFX2 -

- TEST_GFX2_copy.zip" on the orgs test downloads.

MR EGG
01-24-2003, 03:49
Welly if your out there, your a genius this thing worked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I ran LMM3 with the Ilands test map and put the script in the startpos files and it ran for 150 turns I did not go any further but propably could have. as for the lukmap lbm's,I tried the gfx2 and it damaged the the file or disstorted the image quite badly,so I tried miths image converter (changed to PNG AND LOADED COLOUR TABLE first)then saved as LBM which I put in to the textures campmap folder with the tga which in turn got an unknown error message when i tried to load the campaign.Tried it with just the LBM and the defalt tga and it loaded but ran for 3 turns and locked up.So the scripts definatly work,could this just be down to map size,Iguess size does matter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I forgot to mention that it ran for 150 turns with the Byzantines,Ive just tested the almo's and it locks up after 2 turns. One thing I noticed was no niegbours showed on the map for Byzan but all others it did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif bah startpos files http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

barocca
01-24-2003, 08:51
where am i ??

at work most days, and sleeping the rest,
also having access traumas which will continue till the end of the month,
all regular downloads have moved to the 3D area,
see main page news article for details,

now who wants to know what about grfx????

Wellington
01-24-2003, 09:02
A quick update -

Mr Egg - Great We're making progress. As regards the TGA I'm not sure about this. Maybe some map sizes are 'good' and some are not. Note that the size of the Britain example is odd numbers Would this cause a problem? Maybe that's why my TGA's for Britain don't work. Can't tell until I've done a bit more testing - which is why I'm using the MTW default TGA's at present. Mind you PP and Whitey got there LoTR map showing up Ok.

Did you solve you problem with the Britain map? Does the BMP open up ok in Windows Paint? Was it corrupted when you downloaded it?

PP - What is the TGA size (maptex/maptex2) of the LoTR map your working on?


I'm now sick and tired of problems trying to create the LukMap LBM's from the .BMPs that LMM produces (it's a nightmare for me as well as you&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Therefore that's the next step for LMM. The next release will be a quickie that only does 1 extra thing. It will create the TRUE .LBM's for LukMap/LukMap2 (as well as the .BMP's - let's keep the BMPs for 'visual reference&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. How long? A couple of days maybe.

I know how to do this (LBMPaletteInOut play's about with LBM's) so let's incorporate it into LMM.

Eventually when I get around to doing the VB6 I'll write an LMM specific DLL for many of the 'CPU intensive' routines that LMM has to do for the map's.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 09:06
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 24 2003,01:51)]where am i ??

at work most days, and sleeping the rest,
also having access traumas which will continue till the end of the month,
all regular downloads have moved to the 3D area,
see main page news article for details,

now who wants to know what about grfx????
It was for PP who could'nt find the Gfx2 stuff in the downloads - does'nt matter now (read my previous update).

'access traumas' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif - try Visa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 10:37
Wellington,

thanks for uploading the file. I used the tool but still I couldn't get a working LBM file. What I noticed is that it seems that the LBM file is pushed out of proportions and that way screws up.
That's where I come to the resolution idea, I also thought of the same thing that it might all be resolution problems. Your resoluton was 485x485. So in order to catch that, I already made a new BritainTest with a little bit of extra sea to the left. Size is now 646*485 which is the exact dimension as the original MTW files but then ofcourse a bit smaller. The LMM3 is now running while I write this.

Wellington, I also think it is a great idea to all use one set of an easy test map to catch all errors and make reproducable tests. I will continue my current test and if conversion works now, I will upload my file so that you guys can have a look/test as well.

One last point, the LOTR map me and Whitey work on is the original 4096*3072 size.

P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 11:16
PP,

Brilliant Maybe the MTW rules are "the proportions (height/width) must stay the same as the original BUT the size can vary". Looking forward to hearing the results of your test.

One point. IF MTW requires new maps to be EXACTLY the same size as the originals it DOES'NT mean we (people using LMM) must always provide a correctly proportioned map to LMM

If this is one of MTW's "rules" I can just amend LMM to -
a) merge the users map, whatever the size, onto a background image of the correct size. I can tile all the 'empty space' with the wood.bmp (as I'm doing for the minimap)
b) increase the size of the lukmap's proportionally and fill the 'empty space' with the "Pink" colour.

I'm sure this would work - I'm already doing re-scaling for the minimap - hence the messages in Messagelog.txt you see about 'scaling factors = x.xxxxxx, y.yyyyy'

This is great progress

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 12:02
Wellington,

first tests are still not succesful. I'm not 100% ready yet but it doesn't look improved. But I did find one other problem which might be the cause of all this. To explain the problem I have to tell a bit about how I work.

The way I always converted my previous LukMap's was from PNG to LBM via Mithel's tool. The PNG is used because it doesn't mess up colours. I would do it like this:

* Load original LukMap.lbm in Mithel's tool
* Export palette
* Load PNG in Mithel's tool
* Load palette
* Save as LBM

That always worked for me till now

What I do now to convert your BMP's is:

* Copy palette you supplied with LMM to LBMPaletteInOut directory
* Import the palette into a LukMap.lbm.
* Load LukMap.lbm from previous step in Mithel's tool
* Export palette
* Load LukMap.bmp (from LMM) into Photoshop.
* Save as LukMap.png
* Load LukMap.PNG from previous step in Mithel's tool
* Load palette
* Save as LBM

Now EVERYTHING is screwed up and looks out of shape. You can open it in Mithel's tool and it will look okay. Open it in another LBMM viewer and you'll see the following:

http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12034/Lukmap2.jpg

I decided too have a closer look at the following process to see where things go different now:

* Copy palette you supplied with LMM to LBMPaletteInOut directory
* Import the palette into a LukMap.lbm.
* Load LukMap.lbm from previous step in Mithel's tool
* Export palette

What I did was using Mithel's tool as a reference.

* I took an original MTW LukMap.lbm and loaded it into Mithel's tool. I exported the palette.
* I took an original MTW LukMap.lbm and loaded it into LBMPaletteInOut. I exported the palette.

I now put these two results against each other in the following screendump:

http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12033/Colours.jpg

As you can see, the results are in some slots the same and in some they differ Because I use your tools and Mithel's tool to create an LBM for MTW, this can seriously be the cause of the screw up. I'm not saying that this is the problem but it can be.

Wellington, could you have a look at this all and see if there is an error in your LBMPaletteInOut tool? If you look in Mithel's tool, the colours nicely "flow". When I look at yours, there seem to be odd colours between the flow.

Okay,

let me know what you think.

P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 13:15
PP,

I think I know what the problem is. Give me a while to check it.

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 13:43
Wellington,

great I can't wait to hear more about it.

P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 14:06
Ok,

It's my fault http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Try this test -

1) copy the lines below into a txt file, change line 4 to represent your path, save it as "example.vbs" -

' start of code
Dim fso, Myfile, line, i, x, a(768)
Set fso = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
filename = "C:\LBMPaletteInOut\LBMPalette_xyz.txt"
If (fso.FileExists(filename)) Then
fso.DeleteFile(filename)
End If
Set MyFile = fso.OpenTextFile(filename, 8, True)
For x = 0 to 255
a(x) = x : a(x+256) = x : a(x+512) = x
Next
i = 0
For x = 0 to 255*3 Step 3
line = Right("00" & i, 3) & " " & a(x) & "," & a(x+1) & "," & a(x+2)
MyFile.WriteLine line
i = i + 1
Next
MyFile.Close
Set MyFile = Nothing
' end of code

2) run it - it just creates a "Test" palette of 3 ascending hex tables

3) use LBMPaletteInOut to Import this palette (LBMPalette_xyz.txt) into LukMap.lbm

4) open lukmap.lbm with a hex editor - look at position 48 in the lbm X'0030' (4 bytes after the "CMAP" header for the colour palette) - this is the start of the out Import - all looks fine

5) now use LBMPaletteInOut to Extract this palette from lukmap.lbm

6) now compare the 2 text files (LBMPalette_xyz.txt and LBMPalette_LukMap.txt) - they are different starting from the value 127

So, LBMPaletteInOut screws up when Exporting because it's interpreting bytes over 127 as SIGNED bytes ... sigh. I KNEW I should have used the ADO stream object for both Import and Export.

I'll amend it quickly and download a new version of LBMPaletteInOut. This, of course means that the LBMPalette.txt in LMM has ALWAYS been wrong. You'll have to replace this text palette via the new LBMPaletteInOut.vbs (save the small test program above - may be useful for testing the next version of LBMPaletteInOut


Well done PP - more progress.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 14:28
Wellington,

thanks for sharing this info and give some insight. And don't worry, as long as you upload a new LBMPaletteInOut.vbs soon, I will forgive your little error.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

One other thing I was thinking about. For the sake of speeding this project up it's good to upload so many small updates. But I think it may start to get a little confusing for other people wanting to test (not sure how many people that would be though). It might be a good idea to create a complete new package for LMM4 and ask Barrocca to delete the other files. But please don't let this comment stop you on giving me quick updates if you have any... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

P.P.

Wellington
01-24-2003, 15:43
PP,

It's on the test downloads now - TEST_LBMPaletteInOut_Version2.zip

This will ensure that the Export (Extract?) works correctly. If you Extract the original lukmap.lbm palette again, rename it to LBMPalette.txt and copy/replace to the LukMapMaker/Defaults folder - then run Britain again and check the lukmap.bmp you can now see that the land and border colours are in-sysbx as per the original MTW lukmaps.

However, I doubt it will solve any of our outstanding problems. Although LBMPaletteInOut was wrong - it STILL produced a Palette of colours and (in theory - what everyone says) as these colours can be anything this should not have caused a problem.

In other words, LMM created the 2 lukmap bmps' using the exact colours defined in the LBMPalette.txt LBMPaletteInOut was wrong - but it should'nt have caused a problem for LMM.

I'll update in a while re my thoughts on releasing future versions of LMM, and we can decide between us what the best approach should be - many thanks for the feedback PP

Welly

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 16:25
I'm running a new test now with the new palette Wellington. One "problem" though is that the palette still has troubles with default slot 215 till 254 (colour 0.255.255). I don't think this causes a problem but just felt like reminding you about this small error. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'll post my test results soon. I hope it works now

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 16:44
Wellington,

again no succes... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Well, I'm running the tool over my LOTR map now (original MTW resolution). I hope this will work... If not, I guess we will have to wait untill your new version is out.

Oh, I will probably not be able to post the results of this test before 8PM. But I'll post it as soon as I can.

P.P.

PanthaPower
01-24-2003, 20:19
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif The new run just crashed with an error. Not sure if I did something wrong but I'll look at it later. Hope you guys have more luck then me.

P.P.

Wellington
01-25-2003, 00:22
P.P.,

Please don't lose heart

In the six weeks since I started this project I've been encouraged by the support it's generated. Not a great deal perhaps but, then again, no ones gone down this road before.

I never expected immense interest for the simple reason many people will have little idea of what we are doing or what we are trying to do. Maybe in a few weeks or months time, when we overcome all the obstacles, other patrons may well say "Hey, these guys pushed the boundaries, were committed, did'nt give up and produced results".

What we are doing is IMMENSELY complicated. We don't know the fact's, the rules or the eventual outcome. However, speaking for myself, I'd far rather be involved in a project that pushes the boundaries of what's possible rather than sitting back and "gleaning comfort" in reproducing the work of others.

This type of project is NOT for the weak hearted We are working this out as we go along. We really don't know what progress we will make in the next few days or weeks ... BUT ... consider the progress we've made already. Within 6 weeks with LMM we now have a "MTW Campaign Generation Utility that NOW provides -

- the ability to create CORRECT Lukmaps
- the ability to create ALL FOUR of the minimap BIF's
- the ability to create ERROR FREE SCRIPTS

And how does LMM do this? By requesting the user to provide a simple map with 2 colours drawn onto it P.P. - is this progress or not?

Yes - we have problems. Many of the current problem's are related to file formats/maps etc: OK, we'll surpass these problems. We'll have to approach each problem as we hit it, but this is 'par for the course' considering what we are trying to do here.

MTW is hardly the most "modding friendly" game I've ever come across. MTW (and STW) incorporate graphics images that are totally unheard of in the Gaming industry. Why? Do you think CA are a company that don't understand new technology - or do you think they are a ground-breaking Company that choose to utilise none-standard interfaces/formats in order to protect their investment?

BIF's, TGA's, LBM's - it's an absolute f****g nightmare for most of us modders. However, my approach is to try to resolve some of these issues for the benefit of the "The Orgs" modders and patrons and reach a point whereby we can all create new campaigns - not just different Scripts - for the advancement of this modding community.

Will we solve these issues? YES LMM4 is already half-creating LBM's. LMM4 will resolve all the crap associated with attempting to change the BIF/LBM file formats from one type to another. The next stage I wish to conquour is LMM generating correct TGA's based on the users input map.

I don't like doing half-a-job. I hav'nt for 20 years and I have no intention of starting now. The outstanding problem's WILL be resolved. WE WILL GET THERE

Have faith http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MR EGG
01-25-2003, 23:57
Welly just a quick question how do you change the colours you have used in your palette for the luk map? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif why is scotland black ? sorry if this is a dumb question I'm just a bit interested why the defalt colour wasn't used.
By the way had some more progress got the border colours to show with the ilands map in MTW.I just put the lbm in the textures/campmapfolder with the defalt tga (as before)andthe borders showed up infact I'll post the screenshot later.I'm also going to uplaod my map tga's &lbm's with the startpos files for any body to tinker with cheers M.E

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 00:40
Ok, let me share some of my test results with LMM3. First of all, I changed my LBMPalette to the one I posted on page 3, with the exception of region 2 going back to the default maroon color and region 251-254 being...
251 1,255,255
252 2,255,255
253 3,255,255
254 4,255,255
I used Mithel's program to create the Lukmaps from converted png files on Photoshop (I wasn't able to change region 252-254 on Mithel's program, since they aren't on MTW's campaign lukmaps).

Tried it in MTW and got the same unknown error, so I went with Wellington's idea to test with the original maptexs instead. I used factionexample1.

I use win98se, have it on high res, normal,
almohad (couldn't select pope...is he selectabe in unmodified mtw?)
early (I noticed the 3 choices werer Britain map; I assume the top one was early).
I set the settings to auto everything.

The game started in year 1087 and lasted till 1282. The Golden Horde (reemerged once) was trying to take over Britain, and the Pope just reemerged for the third time and was also sending an army to Britain from the french coastline along with some religious agents.

Once I reached year 1282, I got a message saying "The Swiss Emerge", and then get subsequent message saying something about a warlord forming a new faction with some rebels creating a swiss rebellion in one of my regions. I then get an error saying "no portrait found for this type." This is probably an easily remedied script change(?) and all was running excellent before this happened. I reloaded from year 1279, but the same events happen in year 1282.

I will try some other changes and will see how far I can get.
p.s.(Wellington, I emailed you yesterday, but I used my darkwolfe handle in the message instead).

Wellington
01-26-2003, 00:40
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 25 2003,16:57)]Welly just a quick question how do you change the colours you have used in your palette for the luk map? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif why is scotland black ? sorry if this is a dumb question I'm just a bit interested why the defalt colour wasn't used.
By the way had some more progress got the border colours to show with the ilands map in MTW.I just put the lbm in the textures/campmapfolder with the defalt tga (as before)andthe borders showed up infact I'll post the screenshot later.I'm also going to uplaod my map tga's &lbm's with the startpos files for any body to tinker with cheers M.E
Mr Egg,

You can edit the RGB numbers in the actual file "LBMPalette,txt" in the defaults folder. The Best way is to download the 2ND VERSION of the utility LBMPaletteInOut from the orgs test downloads
(TEST_LBMPaletteInOut_Version2.zip).

There was a bug in version 1 of this utility - which is why scotland is black Your using the LBMpalette that does not reflect the real palette in the Lukmaps. DO the following and you'll then be using the real apolette -utility will allow you to extract the colour palette from the LukMap/LukMap2 LBM's into a text file that has exactly the same format as LMM requires. The steps should be -

1) download and read the readme
2) use "Extract" to create the file "LBMPalette_LukMap.txt"
3) Rename this file to "LBMPalette.txt"
4) change the 4 entries at slot's 241-244 from "0,255,255"
to make them all unique, eg -

241 1,255,255
242 2,255,255
243 3,255,255
244 4,255,255

5) copy this to the LMM defualts folder (replacing the one there)

LMM will now use exactly the same colours from the palette that was in the LukMap.lbm file.

Love to see the islands screen print. I'm still struggling with LBM and TGA formats http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 00:49
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 25 2003,17:40)]4) change the 4 entries at slot's 241-244 from "0,255,255"
to make them all unique, eg -

241 1,255,255
242 2,255,255
243 3,255,255
244 4,255,255
Shouldn't that be 251-254 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Wellington
01-26-2003, 00:54
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 25 2003,17:49)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 25 2003,17:40)]4) change the 4 entries at slot's 241-244 from "0,255,255"
to make them all unique, eg -

241 1,255,255
242 2,255,255
243 3,255,255
244 4,255,255
Shouldn't that be 251-254 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Yes it should be I'm an tired idiot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

MR EGG
01-26-2003, 01:12
Hi Wellington heres the pic. please don't get disheartened
with this project you have achieved so much already in a short space of time and I know many people are whatching this space .We are very close to a fully working map
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/00000002.jpg

MR EGG
01-26-2003, 05:04
Changed some palette entries in the defalt folder in LMM3
got it working also got minimap working.Is there away to increase the map size LMM3 CHUCKS OUT because this is the only thing i can see thats stopping the tga's working.LMM3 dosn't seem to be able to work with maps at 4096 /3072, is there away to amend this in LMM4.Cheers M.E
Oh anouther pic notice 8 turns .



http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/00000009.jpg

Wellington
01-26-2003, 05:58
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 25 2003,22:04)]Is there away to increase the map size LMM3 CHUCKS OUT because this is the only thing i can see thats stopping the tga's working.LMM3 dosn't seem to be able to work with maps at 4096 /3072, is there away to amend this in LMM4.
My thoughts exactly. Can't change the lukmap sizes with LMM3 but you will be able to in LMM4.

In all previous threads on this issue of map sizes most people who've tried this say the map sizes (Maptex and LukMap) can be any size. I'm not so convinced. ALso, it seems a good idea to stick with the original MTW map sizes whilst we are still sorting this out. If MTW does allow smaller maps sizes we can always do a bit of trial and error later.

So, for LMM4, I'm putting in a parameter ("MTWMapSize=YES") so we can then get LMM4 to create LukMaps that are the same size as MTW's. The actual users map size will remain as the size of the input map but it would be centred within the LukMap. Any extra 'space' will just be "Pink". The LukMaps will also be easier to install as I've now cracked the file format for them.

The Targa/TGA's are a bit of a pig but I also want LMM to create the 2 MapTex/Maptex2 TGA's based on the user's input map. Again same idea as the LukMaps, centre the users map within the actual MTW TGA sizes and tile any 'space' with the wood that MTW uses. That way it would look perfect.

Once LMM can produce the TGA's a nice touch will be to allow the user to tile his 'space' (if the users map is smaller that the MTW size) with whatever he wants instead of the wood. The users could optionally provide a bitmap, any size - does'nt matter, with a design of their own. Hence if your ECW campaign map of Britain was a bit smaller than the full MTW size you could tile it with an ECW image of you own choosiuing just to give it that 'special' touch.

None of this will be in LMM4 though (LMM6?).

How long for LMM4? 2 or 3 days I think (famous last words&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. LMM4 will -

- have BifReader with it (in the download) and remove the 'Browse for Folder'
- create the real LukMap/LukMap2 LBM files (I'll also produce the lukmap BMP's as they are quick reference in bitmap format)
- allow for the "MTWMapSize=YES" option.
- incorporate an Install/Backout facility (time providing)

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 06:30
I've been testing with Britain.bmp and Britain_Original.bmp as the same size as the original mtw MapTex.tga. What I did was convert the MapTex.tga to bmp and copied the britain bmps into the center of this new map. I tried 3 different ways...
1) just pasting the britain bmps with no changes
2) creating a pink rectangle around the edges of the britain map and then pasting
3) pasting the britain maps, and then extending the pink lines to the edge of this new map.

It goes fine until it reaches this step...
(MS) Main: increasing image by 200% ...

I then get this Windows error message...
Script: C:\Program Files\LukMapMaker\LukMapMaker.vbs
Line: 2164
Char: 3
Error: The parameter is incorrect.

Code: 8000FFFF
Source: csImageFileTrial.Manage

It's similar to Mr. Eggs error message earlier in the thread.

Sometimes, the LMM's error file shows that it has an undefined region 0,0 (I think this happened when I tried 1 and 2 above).

LMM3 worked fine for me before, so I'm not sure why I'm getting this error, other than changing the size of the britain and britain_original.bmp files.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 06:55
dr3mew3vr,

Can you look in the messagelog.txt for that run and tell mw LMM3 says the mapsize is. The lines you are looking for are -

19:50:26 ™ Starting Main routines ...
19:50:26 ™ Main: loading "Britain.bmp" map ...
19:50:26 ™ Main: ... mapsize = 485x485

This error is not being issued by LMM but rather by the csImage package.

The problem is that the graphics package we are using for all this map manipulation is saying one of the paremters is incorrect. Now all that line of code (line 2164) in LMM is doing is requesting csImage to make a new image in memory, ready for the resizing of lukmap to lukmap2. As the only parameters on that line are the height and width for the new image I can only suspect it's a limitation in the graphics package.

If you give me the mapsize I'll try a couple of things myself.

Welly

barocca
01-26-2003, 06:56
just so you know there are many peeps watching this thread,
do NOT give up,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

This utility will be a ground breaker,
and i can only imagine the extreme mods we will be able to make with it

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

WesW
01-26-2003, 07:09
Hi, guys.
I was reading the Script files thread, and came across something that might help you guys. Here is a paste:

SetAttributes:: ID_MOROCCO "Morocco" 0 MUSLIM_CULTURE ARID AT_ISLAMIC -1 255 "Morocco Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

What does this all tell you?

Well, it tells that for the Almohads (who control Morocco and Cordoba used in these examples) use different architecture attributes in the SetAttributes which means that architecture in SetAttributes is NOT related to culture and religion
As shown in the Cordoba example, SetBorderInfo can be chosen indepently of the SetAttributes info to create a different feel for the battle maps. The Southern European, Eastern European, Western European and Islamic properties are linked to the MTW\Models directory.

As everyone probably knows the object MUSLIM_culture and Catholic_culture used in SetAttributes are ofcourse related to the faction's SetReligion and SetBehaviour attributes.

Now, I have not fiddled with these particular aspects of the start position texts, but I can tell you with almost certainty based upon my previous experience that the SetAttributes section deals entirely and exclusively with the selection and creation of the battlefield maps, especially the castle map, and is not related to anything else in the file.
The MUSLIM_CULTURE refers to the style of buildings and structures placed upon the battlefield map, if present, and is not affected by which faction controls the province. The rest of the code refers to the attributes of the castle map.

You were right to say that SetAttributes is not related to the faction's religion and behaviour. It is in fact not related to the faction at all.

Hope this helps.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 07:25
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 25 2003,23:56)]just so you know there are many peeps watching this thread,
do NOT give up,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

This utility will be a ground breaker,
and i can only imagine the extreme mods we will be able to make with it

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
B,

No intention of giving up mate The fact is I KNOW it can be done and we WILL get there. The only unknown is how long it takes to work out all the stuff we don't yet know and thereby get to the stage where I can confidently release LMMx as a none-BETA version.

It's also gratifying that there are some bright people who are as enthusiatic as I am about this whole area, and the implicit potential, and MORE IMPORTANTLY giving me a lot of help with this project in terms of testing/ideas/opinions - which is really what I wanted ... so thank's guys - I appreciate all your doing.

BTW: It's also, for me, one of the most interesting and challenging mod projects I've been involved in. Cracking this will be a watershed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 07:37
9:35:27 PM (MS) Starting Main routines ...
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: loading "Britain.bmp" map ...
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: ... mapsize = 2048x1536
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: loading "Britain_Original.bmp" map ...

Here you go Welly--it's the exact size of Maptex.tga, as I used that file and converted it to a bmp. If you want, I can mail you the MessageLog.txt file.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 08:11
dr3mew3vr,

I was curious who darkwolfe was I'm also curious what the hell "dr3mew3vr" means http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Looks more like a password to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 08:41
it is supposed to be dreamweaver because I'm an artist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ...I originally used the name for AOL Instant Messenger, but the original spelling was already taken, so I changed the spelling up a bit. darkwolfe is more of my gamer name...as it sounds more ruthless than dreamweaver.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 08:44
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 26 2003,00:37)]9:35:27 PM (MS) Starting Main routines ...
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: loading "Britain.bmp" map ...
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: ... mapsize = 2048x1536
9:35:27 PM (MS) Main: loading "Britain_Original.bmp" map ...

Here you go Welly--it's the exact size of Maptex.tga, as I used that file and converted it to a bmp. If you want, I can mail you the MessageLog.txt file.
DarkWolfe,

I'm calling you DarkWolfe from now on, if that's ok with you - basically because I can never remember your dr3???? name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Please do zip and E-mail me the messagelog.txt - it may tell me something. Thanks for telling me your using W98se - this helps me a lot in terms of support (I'm using XP Home Edition). I'll try a few 'busting' tests tomorrow to ascertain the limits in terms of what this csImage package is capable of. Having said that I do think it's a pretty good package.

Just as an aside - the whole idea of the messagelog.txt was to have a reference of exactly what processing LMM had been through (both for the user and for myself in terms of support). Every main function/subroutine in LMM issues a message just so we can sure the order of processing is correct.

I really want to issue a "Technical Guide" to LMM which will try to explain some things in a lot more detail. I use LMM slightly different (in terms of testing) to you guys because I know what tables/files I can change and which I can't. I hav'nt given you this type of information yet. Not because I don't want to but rather I hav'nt had time to write it properly. Trouble is writing GOOD documentation takes a lot of time and a lot of thought.

If you guy's know what LMM is doing, why it is doing it, how it is doing it, what it uses to do it and how you can 'amend the processing' this helps everyone. I'll try to add a very brief "Technical Guide" to LMM in the next release.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 09:11
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 26 2003,01:41)]it is supposed to be dreamweaver because I'm an artist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif ...I originally used the name for AOL Instant Messenger, but the original spelling was already taken, so I changed the spelling up a bit. darkwolfe is more of my gamer name...as it sounds more ruthless than dreamweaver.
Aaaahhhh

The penny sinks (bet you don't know what that means&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Still, I'm calling you 'DarkWolfe' from now on. Dreamweaver suggests bad overtones for a BETA project http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly

Wellington
01-26-2003, 09:58
Quote[/b] (WesW @ Jan. 26 2003,00:09)]Hi, guys.
I was reading the Script files thread, and came across something that might help you guys. Here is a paste:

SetAttributes:: ID_MOROCCO "Morocco" 0 MUSLIM_CULTURE ARID AT_ISLAMIC -1 255 "Morocco Castle_xzy" INLAND HILLY NO_RIVER
------------------------------------

What does this all tell you?

Well, it tells that for the Almohads (who control Morocco and Cordoba used in these examples) use different architecture attributes in the SetAttributes which means that architecture in SetAttributes is NOT related to culture and religion
As shown in the Cordoba example, SetBorderInfo can be chosen indepently of the SetAttributes info to create a different feel for the battle maps. The Southern European, Eastern European, Western European and Islamic properties are linked to the MTW\Models directory.

As everyone probably knows the object MUSLIM_culture and Catholic_culture used in SetAttributes are ofcourse related to the faction's SetReligion and SetBehaviour attributes.

Now, I have not fiddled with these particular aspects of the start position texts, but I can tell you with almost certainty based upon my previous experience that the SetAttributes section deals entirely and exclusively with the selection and creation of the battlefield maps, especially the castle map, and is not related to anything else in the file.
The MUSLIM_CULTURE refers to the style of buildings and structures placed upon the battlefield map, if present, and is not affected by which faction controls the province. The rest of the code refers to the attributes of the castle map.

You were right to say that SetAttributes is not related to the faction's religion and behaviour. It is in fact not related to the faction at all.

Hope this helps.
WesW,

Many thanks for your input, its most appreciated.

However, can you put this type of info in the stickied Script thread. The reason is that the 'initial' Script problems for LMM have now been resolved. We will have to reappraise the info provided in the Script thread at a later date - at such time it will be essential to have all all "Script issues" collated in that thread in order to to ascertain the rules that a "Script Editor" utility (the logical follow-on to LMM) must incorporate.

There is a LOT of info in this thread but, at present, I really would like to keep the onus centred on the LMM releases and info pertaining to current LMM issues.

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 11:42
Addl Testing of MapTex sizes

I'm retesting the Britain map with original MTW MapTex.tga that I had working for about 200 turns (middle of page 4).

Experimented with size 1536x2048--original size is 2048x1536
Also tried 1024x768--half of original mapsize
(MapTex2.tga were double the size of above).

Both showed up with the same unknown 000000 error. So far, it's looking like it has to be the same EXACT SIZE and also can't be PERPENDICULAR even if the same size. I also tested with a graphically altered maptex of original size and that worked fine btw.

dr3mew3vr
01-26-2003, 11:51
Did you guys notice if you get a Lukmap working with MTW's MapTex.tga, something strange happens to the Strategy map ingame? Check out Mr. Egg's pic of his Strat Map (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/00000009.jpg). Do you see how if a region is selected the graphics for that region looks corrupted? This also happens when you click on additional regions, and even if you end the year. The only time the graphics become clear again is when you play with the video options, but once you click a province again, it gets corrupted.

PanthaPower
01-26-2003, 13:36
Hi guys.

I see you have been pretty busy I went away with my girlfriend this weekend and when I logged in on the board I see I missed so much already Well, I'll read through all the new info again a bit later and give some feedback on them.

Great work guys

PanthaPower

MR EGG
01-26-2003, 14:53
Welly[/quote]
How long for LMM4? 2 or 3 days I think (famous last words&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. LMM4 will -

- have BifReader with it (in the download) and remove the 'Browse for Folder'
- create the real LukMap/LukMap2 LBM files (I'll also produce the lukmap BMP's as they are quick reference in bitmap format)
- allow for the "MTWMapSize=YES" option.
- incorporate an Install/Backout facility (time providing)

Welly


Great news Welly cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Please check this out I resized the tga of the Ilands map to 4096/3072


http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/00000013.jpg


This confirms the tga maps need to be defalt sizes/4096/3072
and the other can't remember at the moment.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 17:39
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 26 2003,07:53)]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/ISSY%20WHIZZY/00000013.jpg


This confirms the tga maps need to be defalt sizes/4096/3072
and the other can't remember at the moment.
Mr Egg,

Can you elaborate on that statement "confirms ..." together with your reasoning. I'm probably being stupid (I'm a bit slow today&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I don't follow how anything is confirmed or not by looking at the resized Islands map.

Welly

MR EGG
01-26-2003, 18:35
Welly the tga is working in MTW AT 4096/3072 with the smaller luk map. No other size works apart from the defalt ,I take this as good as confirmed.

Wellington
01-26-2003, 20:01
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 26 2003,11:35)]Welly the tga is working in MTW AT 4096/3072 with the smaller luk map. No other size works apart from the defalt ,I take this as good as confirmed.
Ok, I see what your saying and I'm pretty sure your right. However, if you rescaled the Islands map (or any other other for that matter) to be the same size as MTW's, and then rescaled the lukmap also to be the same size (did you do this?) then I'd expect it to work. The reason being all 3 maps (Maptex/LukMap/Minilukup) would be in sync.

At present LMM3 does NOT ensure all 3 are in sync. LMM3's logic says -

a) produce the lukmaps based on the exact size as the users map
b) produce Minilukup based on the size of the MTW frame

These these 2 statement would only be compatable IF the users map is exactly the same size as MTW's map. LMM4 will try to sort this out via the new "MTWMapSize=YES" parameter.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-26-2003, 20:10
Guys,

I just converted my LOTR map and it seemed to work It runs at the default MTW map size and I tested it for 15 turns. I noticed one error till but I'll look into it if it's a drawing error from my side (one region had different origins for unit placement and the origin where the castle is located). The other regions I checked where all working 100%

Wellington, I don't know if it is in the LBM converter from Mithel or the LBM file properties itself or something else but the LukMap.bmp to LukMap.lbm coversion had no problems on the original MTW resolutions.... I'll try to look into this a bit further and post a screenshot later on.

Panthapower

Wellington
01-26-2003, 20:23
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 26 2003,13:10)]Guys,

I just converted my LOTR map and it seemed to work It runs at the default MTW map size and I tested it for 15 turns. I noticed one error till but I'll look into it if it's a drawing error from my side (one region had different origins for unit placement and the origin where the castle is located). The other regions I checked where all working 100%

Wellington, I don't know if it is in the LBM converter from Mithel or the LBM file properties itself or something else but the LukMap.bmp to LukMap.lbm coversion had no problems on the original MTW resolutions.... I'll try to look into this a bit further and post a screenshot later on.

Panthapower
Hi PP,

One thing to consider. Any users map might "confuse" the MTW engine depending on the shape of the Land region. Think of this ...

The Castle/Origin/Port X/Ys are all defined in the Script. MTW knows EXACTLY to position things in a Land region based on these X/Ys. However, how does it determine were the various Land region titles should be positioned?

What would happen if you drew a Land region in the shape of a thin horseshoe and specified the Castle x/y to be at one of the shoe and the Origin x/y at the other end (ie: a different land region in-between these 2 points&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Where would MTW then place the Titles? In the wrong region? What would happen when we truied to 'pick up' a title? Would MTW CTD?

These are all things to consider/check-out ...

MR EGG
01-26-2003, 21:12
Welly[/quote]
if you rescaled the Islands map (or any other other for that matter) to be the same size as MTW's, and then rescaled the lukmap also to be the same size (did you do this?) then I'd expect it to work. The reason being all 3 maps (Maptex/LukMap/Minilukup) would be in sync.

In a word no I didn't ,maybe I'm going in a different direction to you guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PanthaPower
01-26-2003, 23:10
Wellington,

that's an interesting theory you got about that horseshoe region... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, when LMM4 is ready, we could do some more testing with that.

I reread my last post again and noticed that I might not have been clear. I was in a hurry so sorry for that one. To make things clear, what I meant in my last post was that I had a region where my title would be at and where my units would stand. But the castle would stand in a different region on the map... And not even close to the one where my units would be at
But it could have been caused by one error that was made by me. I reshaped a few provinces on my LOTR map and accidently gave two castle coordinates to one region. Of course it gave an error in the errorlog but still I wanted to try the new map in MTW. I ofcourse deleted the extra castle out of the script file.

I'm now running a complete new run and I will test again. I think the run will last for one more hour. Takes so much time on my P3-450 laptop... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Wellington, one more question. The DLL that we are using will expire soon. Are you going to make your own DLL or will you keep on using this dll in the final version?

P.P.

Wellington
01-27-2003, 00:09
PP,

I'll update this thread tommorrow re- your comments.

At present I'm checking one or two things curious issues regarding the continued use of ChestySofts csImageFile product.

Tot slot - Engels gezegde "throwing a spanner in the works"

barocca
01-27-2003, 03:52
i'm on my way out the door,
so a quick note regarding the new file system,

you can still upload to and download from the upload pages, but files will only stay there for a day or so,
i must move then to 3D as fast as possible to keep our service host happy,

more information here
Notice of changes thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=5462)
and here
Upload Tools Index Pages (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Upload_Index.shtml)

just thought you should be aware of the changes,
usually you can download immediately from 3D, the longest wait i have had has been Four Minutes,
(queue estimate was 16 minutes - they allow one minute per user per download in their estimate, but most files take a few seconds to download)

dr3mew3vr
01-27-2003, 05:21
Question for you Wellington. Is there any way to make it so LMM doesn't have to go through the lookuptable.txt chronologically down the list automatically when deciding which regions to put into the map and script file one creates? What I mean is that if you only have two provinces on your map, those provinces will always be Scotland and North Umbria, etc., etc., with Sicily always last...going down the list. Is it possible for you to modify LMM so that the user can pick which region ids that he wants to use in his map (besides specifying the names in RegionNames.txt)?

dr3mew3vr
01-27-2003, 05:33
Related to the above is the "Swiss emerge" as a new faction around turn 200 of the Early game (Britain map, FactionExample1). The "Swiss emerge" also happens if I choose the Late game around turn 3. When they emerge it causes the game to crash because of a "no portrait found" error. Has anyone else experienced this type of crash? I was thinking that if Switzerland was one of the regions in the map that this crash wouldn't happen? Along the same train of thought...does this mean we need to have all the regions in any new campaign map? ...something to think about, I guess.

barocca
01-27-2003, 11:15
the "Swiss" is a hardcoded event,
they will always appear in Switzerland,

I Beleieve, (not certain)
You will need a province in THAT slot no matter what,
and you need the swiss as a "registered" Non Playable faction, even though they start with no provinces owned.

Depending on the campaign mod you make as to what you actually do with this "rebel" faction...

Wellington
01-27-2003, 13:33
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 26 2003,16:10)]Wellington,

that's an interesting theory you got about that horseshoe region... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, when LMM4 is ready, we could do some more testing with that.

I reread my last post again and noticed that I might not have been clear. I was in a hurry so sorry for that one. To make things clear, what I meant in my last post was that I had a region where my title would be at and where my units would stand. But the castle would stand in a different region on the map... And not even close to the one where my units would be at
But it could have been caused by one error that was made by me. I reshaped a few provinces on my LOTR map and accidently gave two castle coordinates to one region. Of course it gave an error in the errorlog but still I wanted to try the new map in MTW. I ofcourse deleted the extra castle out of the script file.

I'm now running a complete new run and I will test again. I think the run will last for one more hour. Takes so much time on my P3-450 laptop... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Wellington, one more question. The DLL that we are using will expire soon. Are you going to make your own DLL or will you keep on using this dll in the final version?

P.P.
PP,

If you had 2 castles in the same region that should have been logged as an error when you did a "Test Map" run (that's the whole purpose of the "Test Map" run type - to trap most errors before you try a "Map/Script" run&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Basically, if LMM says there are errors then you should correct these via LMM. Ok, you don't always have to BUT LMM does NOT GUARENTEE and error free Script if you have errors. Many utilities/programs will just stop at the first sign of any error and force te user to start again. LMM does not this. LMM says "let's try to notify the userrs of as mnay errors as we can" - and hence it tries to keep running - even though errors have occured. What the end result of those errors will be if you then try to install LMMs generated output is really undeterminable.

I'll add a few more posts to this thread later in terms of -
- Dreamweavers question
- the csImageFileTrial package
- LMM4 update

Welly

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 14:15
Guys,

I have a problem which I cannot identify... I succesfully converted my LOTR.BMP to a working script, Bif, LBM and TGA files using LMM3 (no errors in log). I ran it in MTW and everything seemed fine. But when I started playing I noticed that at least one region was not working correctly. I played as Almohads and they got the Regions Scotland and Livonia. The problem is in Livonia. I'll explain it in detail below what happens in MTW.

Take a look at a part from the Ref_Identifiers.bmp:
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12232/lbmproblem.jpg

* When you check the ID in Ref_Identifiers.bmp it states ID_Livonia.
* When you right click on Livonia inside MTW it shows the name Smolensk
* A title is available and it's called "Title * of Livonia"
* A castle is placed and the name of the castle is "Livonia Castle"
* Moving units out of the Livonia castle is only possible to ID_Volga_Bulgaria (the ID that is shown in Ref_Identifiers.bmp).
* Right click on Volga_Bulgaria gives an info screen that it's called Livonia
* When moving my Livonia units from the Volga Bulgaria region to Livonia it states that I'm invading Smolensk
* ID_Smolensk (the ID that is shown in Ref_Identifiers.bmp) does not have closed borders shown in MTW (e.g. the orange border colour for a region owned by Almohads).
* Right clicking on ID_Smolensk doesn't work and seems totally dead.
* Smolensk Castle is shown in the region ID_Smolensk.
* Checking the colours in the palette slots came up with the right rgb values in the right slots (Livonia 211,195,179/219,203,187 en Smolensk 227,211,195/235,219,203).
* SetCastle, SetOrigin and SetPort all have the right coordinates in the script I checked all of them and they are exactly as I specified.

Well, I'm puzzled. All the surrounding provinces seem to work fine and I cannot find any problems so far in the script. If you guys have any ideas or any further questions, please don't hesitate to share them with me. Can any of you guys also try one of your campaigns to see if you experiecne the same problem with Livonia, Smolensk and Volga_Bulgaria?

Wellington, one issue I would like to address. I see that the "income" value in SetAttributes seems totally random. Scotland for instance gives me 4102 florins a turn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Maybe you could put a fixed income value of 150 for every region?

Also about the thing that I had two castles specified, well it was an error from me. When I ran the full script/map process I thought I was running a flawless BMP (I ran it many times already). But I forgot that I was behind another pc with an old version of my BMP. I understand that is shouldn't test these things when i get erros but it was the first time that I got a working LBM file in LMM3 so I was excited to test it after a manual correction in the script file. Forgive my curiosity.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Looking forward to hear any ideas,
Panthapower

dr3mew3vr
01-27-2003, 15:29
I have a couple things to mention here.

Mapsizes
MapTex.tga size of 1024x1536 also crashes the game. This size also gives the line 2164 error in LMM again.

Factions.txt
The names have to be all caps in the RegionOwner field, otherwise those regions will not be owned by anyone.

The Swiss
Thx for the tip Barocca, I was thinking along the same lines. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
First, I tried just putting the swiss as SWISS=(minor,catholic,CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST,Swiss) without region ownership; swiss emerge in year 1405-1410 in high game. Result=no portrait found crash again.

Next, I gave them ownership of Switzerland and left them as SWISS=(minor,catholic,CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST,Swiss) RegionOwner=(ID_SWITZERLAND)
YES, it workshttp://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Lasted till 1453 although MTW gave me a defeat because I wasn't the most lasting dynasty and most glorious. The Swiss had only 3 provinces, the Papacy one, and me 47? I don't think I clicked glorious achievement when I started the game, oh well.

Here is what I did. I modified the Britain map and put it 51 land regions (up to Switzerland). I used the default mapsize for the Maptex again. I played the Almohads with 49 regions owned. I gave the Papacy Bavaria, and the Swiss Switzerland. I played on Easy, High, modified florin start money(gave almohads more and the others less http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif), auto everything. Since the Swiss were in the game from the start...no more irritating "The Swiss Emerge" event. I also had an event about the Portuguese sailing/trading around the world, but I didn't get any errors. I will try again again with a new map/script making the swiss a minor faction again without any land, to see if it crashes again. But, as of now, it looks like the Swiss and the Pope have to be in the game with land ownership.

Pantha
I think I've seen the same things in my games but I haven't really looked into the name descrepancy as I have been trying to see if I can reach year 1453. But I did notice titles weren't displayed right for royalty, and one royalty had a generic name which MTW said something about name not found in the notes which pop up in the game, but the game still went well.

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 16:00
Dr3mew3vr,

GREAT I see we are getting closer and closer. With everyone doing their own testing we are getting a lot of results in a very short time span
I also experienced that my game runs fine with these small errors on the map. I didn't have any crash to desktop at all in my game but I only played for a few years a few times(at least 25 turns).

About the pope and swiss thing, yes I also concluded the Pope HAS to be in the game. I was worried about the Golden Horde/Swiss thing but didn't come that far yet with my testing.
One thing to help you solve the Swiss portrait mystery, I heard someone (Barocca?) used a tool in the past which can look at what directory MTW is looking while you run into that Portrait error. One thing it gave a clearer view at is for instance the fact that Prince portraits are coming from the general portrait directory.

P.P.

MR EGG
01-27-2003, 16:50
Exellent I have just tested with the swiss in my E.C.W campaign after reading your posts and it seems to work so far so good.
P.P when you ran LMM3 with your maps were they defalt size?
sorry if this is a silly question but I'm working all hours at the moment and just grabing 5 minutes here & there on this. Cheers M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 16:54
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 27 2003,15:50)]P.P when you ran LMM3 with your maps were they defalt size?
M.E.

Yes it's the default MTW size I used. In other words, the BMP I provide to LMM3 is 2048*1536 in size which creates an LBM file of 2048*1536 and 4096*3072.

For me this is the only resolution where I get everything to work yet.

P.P.

MR EGG
01-27-2003, 17:01
p.p brilliant so you start off with 2048*1536 and this works no problem with LMM3? is there any thing you have done in particular (that I might be doing wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )that gets this to work, Ive had no luck with larger maps with LMM3 Cheers M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 17:10
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 27 2003,16:01)]p.p brilliant so you start off with 2048*1536 and this works no problem with LMM3? is there any thing you have done in particular (that I might be doing wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )that gets this to work, Ive had no luck with larger maps with LMM3 Cheers M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Not sure if I get what your asking M.E.

What I did is supply the BMP for LMM3 in the size 2048*1536. It runs through LMM3 and creates LukMaps of 2048*1536 and 4096*3072. I open them in Photoshop and convert them to PNG. I then open them in Mithel's tool and import the default MTW colour palette. I save it to LBM via Mithel's tool and copy them to MTW. I copy the script file plus Bif files to the FactionSelect and Campmap directory. I then copy my own made LOTR MapTex.TGA (2048*1536 and 4096*3072) to the texture directory and voila, a working campaign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well, except for a few problems but for that please read my previous post.

Hope this answer your question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

P.P.

MR EGG
01-27-2003, 17:26
Thanks P.P yes it does answer most of my question,but when I run any larger maps I get an error message:

Line:1031
Char:7
Error subscript out of range:'[number1]'
Code:800A0009
ScourcemicrosoftVb script runtime error http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 17:31
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 27 2003,16:26)]Thanks P.P yes it does answer most of my question,but when I run any larger maps I get an error message:

Line:1031
Char:7
Error subscript out of range:'[number1]'
Code:800A0009
ScourcemicrosoftVb script runtime error http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
M.E.

I had some weird errors too a few times with VBS crashes. But I solved it by downloading LMM2 and LMM3 again from the Org and making a complete fresh copy. I also updated all the files used by LMM (several DLL's etc) and after that everything worked again. But only making a fresh LMM3 directory with fresh MapFolder-test files solves the trick usually.

P.P.

MR EGG
01-27-2003, 17:36
OK thanks P.P I'll try that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-27-2003, 18:50
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 27 2003,10:26)]Thanks P.P yes it does answer most of my question,but when I run any larger maps I get an error message:

Line:1031
Char:7
Error subscript out of range:'[number1]'
Code:800A0009
ScourcemicrosoftVb script runtime error http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
There was a bug that I thought I'd fixed in LMM3 (I'll recheck it).

The problem I had was if I copied the parameters.txt file from one mapfolder to another but left the "SameRegion=(r,g,b)" or "LandBridge=(r,g,b) paramters in then I got this same crash. The problem is if LMM did'nt find the colours on the map it screwed up later. I thought I'd fixed it.

I think for LMM4 I'll change the name of the program from lukmapmaker to LMM4 - so just we can all be sure were running the correct version.

Anyway I'll you with update the LMM4 progress later (busy testing something at the moment - LMM4 NOW WRITES THE TGA's as well&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So what? Well ... I'm impressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Welly

Wellington
01-27-2003, 18:53
Mr Egg,
BTW - check my post on Barrocca's thread regarding UPLOADING FILES ...

PanthaPower
01-27-2003, 18:54
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 27 2003,17:50)]So what? Well ... I'm impressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Good job Wellington When will it be released?

Wellington
01-27-2003, 19:11
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 27 2003,11:54)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 27 2003,17:50)]So what? Well ... I'm impressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Good job Wellington When will it be released?
A couple of days maybe. I still have some things to do -

- finish the byterun1 encoding (the comression algorithm) for the 2 lukmap files
- finish checking for 'silly errors'
- change the scaling of the minimap.bif and minilukup.bif to reflect the real MTW sizes (at present LMM always 'fills' the space in these 2 bifs to reflect your map size - what it SHOULD do is size these small images relative to the 2048x1536 size

This means LMM4 will now produce true filetypes for the LBMs and TGAs (as well as the Bifs). The TGA,s are just created from the "xxx_Original.bmp" users map and if they are smaller than the MTW sizes they are either -

- tiled with wood (what you see MTW)
- tiled with any other image the users wants (a new optional file you can put in the mapfolders "BorderTile.bmp")

Looks really good

Installer/Backout
-----------------

I was trying to get an Installer/Backout facility in LMM4. This now makes sense as we have all 8 maps and the Script.txt (later on we'll have the various translated files in the loc/eng as well) so it makes sense to have an installer that just copies certain files from the MTWfiles folder into the correct locations in the users modding copy of MTW. The idea is also for the user to optionally provide a 'list' of all things (images/icons) related to a specific mod and keep them in the MTWfiles folders. In this way we can use LMM(5/6?) totally install all components of a mod and also back them out. This means working on 2 or more mods at the same time will be easy-peasy

A bit to think about though because this requires the LMM user to have 2 MTW folders (unmodded and modded) so LMM can do the 'backpout' by just copying the relevant files from one MTW installation to the 2nd one.

Ok, back to testing

Welly

MR EGG
01-27-2003, 23:20
Great news cheers Wellington. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I am impressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wellington
01-27-2003, 23:40
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 26 2003,22:21)]Question for you Wellington. Is there any way to make it so LMM doesn't have to go through the lookuptable.txt chronologically down the list automatically when deciding which regions to put into the map and script file one creates? What I mean is that if you only have two provinces on your map, those provinces will always be Scotland and North Umbria, etc., etc., with Sicily always last...going down the list. Is it possible for you to modify LMM so that the user can pick which region ids that he wants to use in his map (besides specifying the names in RegionNames.txt)?
Dreamweaver,

I'm writing this up for you now as a forerunner to a 'Technical Guide'. I'll post it ASAP.

Also I really would like your feedback/ideas/opinions on what I write up as your probably aware that yourself and the other guys in this small (albeit extremely competent&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif team are doing far more testing/investigation that I can currently do, and coming up with excellent observations, considerations and suggestions that I've not even considered.

This is great as it provides me with intelligent feedback that I trust and hence saves me a lot of time in terms of trial and testing the results of LMM/MTW on my own.

At present my time is more taken up with the writing and testing of LMM4 - OF WHICH I AM EXTREMELY SATISFIED WITH Don't want to get you too excited but I really think LMM4 is the release that finally cracks ALL of the 'technical' issues - and I mean ALL Other important issues (ID_SWITZERLAND, the pope, the golden horde, ... ) are LOGICAL issues that, whilst being critical to anyone producing new mod's, we can all contribute towards solving.

So, my apologies if I hav'nt replied to your post's as much as I'd like to. I'm watching this thread for ideas whilst being busy juggling half-a-dozen other balls with only one hand

Welly

Wellington
01-28-2003, 01:06
Very quickly I should say that the problems you guys see with some regions in the LMM generated campaign games may (and I mean MAY&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif be a result of the LMM 'adjacent regions logic' not being done correcty. I'm really not 100% happy with this part of the code as it relies on the user producing thin (preferably 1 pixel - no more than 2 pixels) border lines on their map.

LMM scans the users map from left to right. It tries to find adjacent regions by looking at the next 1 or 2 pixels. This can go wrong if a "Pink" boder is too thick. The referance '.bmp' ("REf_Adjacents.bmp") tries to show exactly where LMM has determined 2 different regions exists. All it shows is a single white pixel that LMM has determined (via the LMM program logic) represents the 1st indication (scanning left to right) that there are 2 different regions that are also adjacent.

I'm looking at this area of code right now. The best advice would be -

- if you have strange considerations regarding 2 adjacent regions on the MTW map, have a Look at the "Ref_adjacents.bmp". DO these 2 regions have a white pixel that looks to be adjacent to both of these regions? If now maybe the LMM algorithm for this bit opf processing needs rethinking (I'm, looking at it now and trying to work out all the possibilities).

The problem is at present that it's absolutely impossible for me to code LMM to deal 100% correctly with all of the potential input.

MTW does'nt have such a problem. The MTW map's are 'fixed' and should be considered as CONSTANTS in terms of the MTW engine. Therefore MTW does'nt have to conceren itself with such issues.

LMM is trying to do something different. LMM is trying to allow any modder to build there own campaign, based on the visable inherent rules that we see in MTW, whjilst providing all the required/correct technical files that MTW expects.

In other words - it's quite easy for any engine (MTW) if the INPUT RULES are fixed (ie: constants). LMM is attempting to provide INPUT RULES that are NOT fixed (ie: variable) and such variable rules change for any single map that any modder is trying to make into an MTW campaign.

A very big differnce - but not a showshopper My intention is to ensure LMM provides the required flexability for "The Orgs" modders to write/draw/develope there own campaigns.

I'm sure we are going to hit a lot of problems on the way. I'm also absolutely convinced that we can push this MTW engine (via LMM) to the limits.

Ok, I was just thinking out loud with the above diatribe - bear with me

Welly

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 01:16
Wellington,

I see you are getting very impressed by the new LMM4 functionality. I'm curious to see the new improvements and I'm sure it will make the modding and testing stage quicker and easier again. Looking forward to beta-test it.

About the bordr issues that we run into. Well, if you have a close look at the topic that I wrote concerning the three regions which mix up you see that two regions are borders but one is not There are even two seperate regions between it (the livonia unit issue). So your theory about the pixel width might be true in some cases but not in all We need to do more testing on this and I hope the other guys can test this too in their campaigns if it's always the same id_region's that are causing troubles or that it seems to be random. I haven't found any clue yet.

OKay, I call it a day. I'm going to have some rest. Speak to you guys tomorrow.

Panthapower.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 01:37
Wellington,

maybe there's a small clue here. Look at the three pictures. In the script file the Almohads get Scotland and Livonia.

As you can see in the Ref_Identifiers.bmp Livonia is at the top.
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12232/lbmproblem.jpg

IN the faction select screen however Livonia is displayed (orange colour) at the place where Volga Bulgaria should be indetified
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12326/mtw01.jpg

In the MiniMap Livonia is also displayed (orange colour) at the place where Volga Bulgaria should be indetified But you can see the castle and title's are placed correctly in the main map (lukmap).
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12327/mtw02.jpg

What I am thinking about is that there migth be a relation/interaction between the Mini-map/factionselect screen and the LukMap for units placement/origins etc????? I mean, it's curious to see that the minimap and factionselect screen both show an incorrect place for the ID_Livonia region. Maybe the Bif_palette or Bif creation procedure in LMM3 is wrong?

Well, I hope these pictures are of help for you. If you don't understand my example, please ask for more screenshots or more details.

Panthapower

Wellington
01-28-2003, 01:55
P.P.

Love the maps I always think a picture speaks a thousand words. I'll have a better look at these images tommorow and also maybe 'sit back' for the day and consider the implications of what I've now seen/heard from yourself, Mr Egg, Dreamweaver, etc ., and how LMM is currently some stuff.

BTW, great to see your image of MiddleEarth in the faction select menu, the Almohad Orange colour. Just shows me that LMM3 does it's job LMM4 will be better Together we are all getting there Great progress Guys.

Welly

Wellington
01-28-2003, 03:14
P.P.

Forgot to say .. regarding the land province values (4000+) that LMM generates in the Script for your LoTR map.

HOW DARE YOU CALL MY CODE ""RANDOM"" This value is actually calculated on a very scientific basis

It's actually 5% of the pixel count (the total number of pixels in any land region). Random Ie: the value of the land is diectly proportional to the land area.

I'll change this to make it a constant value - 150?

Allow me to assure you P.P. that, although my code may well be considered 'random' by the unenlightened, many people do not share my 'sphere of enlightenment'

If I do appear to write 'random code' on occasion - then please rest assured ...

... there will be a damn good reason for it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 08:09
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 28 2003,02:14)]P.P.

Forgot to say .. regarding the land province values (4000+) that LMM generates in the Script for your LoTR map.

HOW DARE YOU CALL MY CODE ""RANDOM"" This value is actually calculated on a very scientific basis

It's actually 5% of the pixel count (the total number of pixels in any land region). Random Ie: the value of the land is diectly proportional to the land area.

I'll change this to make it a constant value - 150?

Allow me to assure you P.P. that, although my code may well be considered 'random' by the unenlightened, many people do not share my 'sphere of enlightenment'

If I do appear to write 'random code' on occasion - then please rest assured ...

... there will be a damn good reason for it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly
Wellington,

I never accused you of random code. In fact, my exact words are: "I see that the "income" value in SetAttributes seems totally random.". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But if I offended you, my sincere apologies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

But now I know your code is not random and actually uses some intelligent calculation ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) could you keep using this formula but cap the limits to lets say 650?

If this is a bad idea, just tell me.

P.P.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 08:22
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 28 2003,00:55)]P.P.

Love the maps I always think a picture speaks a thousand words. I'll have a better look at these images tommorow and also maybe 'sit back' for the day and consider the implications of what I've now seen/heard from yourself, Mr Egg, Dreamweaver, etc ., and how LMM is currently some stuff.

BTW, great to see your image of MiddleEarth in the faction select menu, the Almohad Orange colour. Just shows me that LMM3 does it's job LMM4 will be better Together we are all getting there Great progress Guys.

Welly
Wellington,

I see you liked those Middle Earth map pictures huh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Good I hope other people will think the same when it's released.
But about the information in the images, I'm really curious to hear what you say about it. I didn't have the time to actually test my ideas yet and today I will not have much time either so it would be great if someone else could evaluate what's going wrong in the bifs/lukmap/script.

About your idea of sitting back today and let all the new info sink in, I think that is a good idea. I'm sure it is very hard for you to keep up with the new ideas we post, the results of tests, the crashes and the causes that we are thinking of, posting here at the Dungeon and also write the code for the new LMM version at the same time. Seems you have a full-time job there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, keep up the good work Wellington

P.P.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 11:49
Wellington,

I did a quick check concerning the Bifs for lukup that are created by LMM.

I opened an original MTW minilukup.bif and had a look inside the palette. I then opened an minilukup.bif generated by LMM and compared these numbers to the ones of MTW. I concluded that there doesn't seem to be any error.

I then opened the original MTW minilukup.bif again and checked the palette slot and colour for Livonia and Smolensk (slot 26 and 28). I compared that to the minilukup.bif generated by LMM and noticed that slot 26 and 28 are given to the wrong regions (refering to Ref_Identifiers.bmp)

So my conclusion is that the regions which are specified in Ref_Identifiers.bmp are in some cases not correctly processed into the LukMap.lbm or minilukup.bif. There is nothing wrong with the BifPallette in the Default directory of LMM.

P.P.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 12:20
Guys,

I FOUND THE BORDER PROBLEM http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'll explain it below.

I checked an original MTW Lukmap.lbm and looked up the values for Livonia and Smolensk. Here are the values:
Livonia - Slot 26 - RGB 195-179-163
Smolensk - Slot 28 - RGB 211-195-179

I then check an original MTW Minilukup.bif and looked up the values for Livonia and Smolensk. Here are the values:
Livonia - Slot 26 - RGB 136-96-160
Smolensk - Slot 28 - RGB 168-128-176

Now I looked in Ref_Colours.bmp and compared the data. Notice that the colours are NOT the same as specified in the LBM pallette/slot
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12336/colourproblem.jpg

As you can see, LMM sometimes attaches the wrong ID_Region to the the wrong slot

Hope you can find the cause of the problem Wellington.

Panthapower

Wellington
01-28-2003, 12:41
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 28 2003,05:20)]Guys,

I FOUND THE BORDER PROBLEM http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'll explain it below.

I checked an original MTW Lukmap.lbm and looked up the values for Livonia and Smolensk. Here are the values:
Livonia - Slot 26 - RGB 195-179-163
Smolensk - Slot 28 - RGB 211-195-179

I then check an original MTW Minilukup.bif and looked up the values for Livonia and Smolensk. Here are the values:
Livonia - Slot 26 - RGB 136-96-160
Smolensk - Slot 28 - RGB 168-128-176

Now I looked in Ref_Colours.bmp and compared the data. Notice that the colours are NOT the same as specified in the LBM pallette/slot
http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/misc/12336/colourproblem.jpg

As you can see, LMM sometimes attaches the wrong ID_Region to the the wrong slot

Hope you can find the cause of the problem Wellington.

Panthapower
PP,

Brilliant I'm checking this whole area right now. There may be a work-a-round in LMM3. Give me an hour or 2 to check all this.

One other thing I'm putting into LMM4 is the ability to include or exclude regions for any users map. Just optional parameters in 'Parameters.txt', for example -

IncludeRegion=ID_SWITZERLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_SCOTLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_WALES
...

This then forces LMM4 to ALWAYS use some region id's and/or NEVER use some regions id's. Will help a lot with testing.

Wellington
01-28-2003, 13:13
Guys,

The problem is that the LMM 'Lookuptable.txt' is wrong. The region ID_Volga_Bulgaria (slots 26/27) is in the wrong place and this throws the whole rest of the table out of sync with the lukmaps.

Have look in loc/eng names.txt the order should be -


@{"Muscovy"}
@{"Livonia"}
@{"Smolensk"}
@{"Ryazan"}
@{"Chernigov"}
@{"Lithuania"}
@{"Pereyaslavl"}
@{"Volga-Bulgaria"}

which is an entry-ordered table in names.txt - now look at the table a bit lower down -

["Muscovy"] {"Muscovy"}
["Volga-Bulgaria"] {"Volga-Bulgaria"}
["Livonia"] {"Livonia"}
["Smolensk"] {"Smolensk"}
["Ryazan"] {"Ryazan"}
["Chernigov"] {"Chernigov"}
["Lithuania"] {"Lithuania"}
["Pereyaslavl"] {"Pereyaslavl"}
["Khazar"] {"Khazar"}


This is the table I used to build the 'Lookuptable.txt' but it's wrong as the table above is NOT order-entry, rather its just keyword entry.

Basically I was looking at the wrong table http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

I've corrected the table now for LMM4. Just replace the entries inyour LMM3 table as follows -

024,025 Land ID_Muscovy "Muscovy"
026,027 Land ID_Livonia "Livonia"
028,029 Land ID_Smolensk "Smolensk"
030,031 Land ID_Ryazan "Ryazan"
032,033 Land ID_Chernigov "Chernigov"
034,035 Land ID_Lithuania "Lithuania"
036,037 Land ID_Pereyaslavl "Pereyaslavl"
038,039 Land ID_Volga_Bulgaria "Volga Bulgaria"
040,041 Land ID_Khazar "Khazar"


Excellent job PP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Welly

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 13:29
Ahhh, ofcourse. I was so excited with finding the error that I didn't check the lookuptable.txt...
But about the names.txt, this is a perfect example that whoever worked on this part of MTW at CA didn't make our modding life easier. There are so many mistakes in all the original script files. I'm sure we'll bump into more of these errors which mess up our mods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Anyway, Wellington, great that you gave us the new entries for the new table. Saves me time to look through the files myself to check if everything is alright. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Okay, I'll try a new run with LMM now but I'm only able to test it late this evening.

P.P.

Wellington
01-28-2003, 13:43
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 28 2003,06:29)]Ahhh, ofcourse. I was so excited with finding the error that I didn't check the lookuptable.txt...
But about the names.txt, this is a perfect example that whoever worked on this part of MTW at CA didn't make our modding life easier. There are so many mistakes in all the original script files. I'm sure we'll bump into more of these errors which mess up our mods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Anyway, Wellington, great that you gave us the new entries for the new table. Saves me time to look through the files myself to check if everything is alright. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Okay, I'll try a new run with LMM now but I'm only able to test it late this evening.

P.P.
Just ran Britain test again with the new table. The lukmap is now in sync. I'll test this tonight also.

Yeah ... it's annoying when professional programmers/systems people do think in a sloppy manner. It's make support a real pain ... still that's only human nature. No ones perfect.

I was strongly suspicious at first, just after I managed to get LMM2 to generate a good Script. It appeared to there were some 'hard coded' considerations in the MTW engine (ie: ID_Scotland must ALWAYS be adjacent to ID_North_umbria - that sort of thing). Seems it's not the case which is really gratifying. However, there may well be some hard coded considerations with some regions. Maybe ID_Malta must always be an Island? Can't tell yet but it's something to be aware of.

I'll change "Ref_Colours.bmp" to add the slot numbers on the left hand side.

Just so you know I've totally restructured LMM4. This was necessary as the code was growing and I needed to do some things in order to prepare the structure for LMM5/LMM6 (I know what I want to incorporate for these 2 releases). Therefore LMM4 will be a totally new release - NOT an upgrade to LMM3.

Welly

Wellington
01-28-2003, 13:57
Forgot to tell you. ANother parameter to deal with income for any land province in the Script.

"SETRegionIncome=(min, max)" LMM4 still bases it's caculation on the size of the region (the pixel count) but now consider the spread of values to be limeted by the users min/max range. FOr example -

SETRegionIncome=(100,400) will spread the income values for land regions between a minimum of 100 and a maximum of 400.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 14:12
Wellington,

all these changes that are going to be in LMM4 sound like it's going to be a mature Beta I like the way you solved the income issue now and the IncludeRegion/Exclude region option. Together with automatically generated TGA's, Bif's and LBM's this is going to be a promising release

And yes, please add the slot numbers in the "Ref_Colours.bmp" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif That would help if we have any further problems with borders.

P.P.

dr3mew3vr
01-28-2003, 14:14
Great investigative work fellows. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif I'm glad that you all were able to crack that issue regarding the strange regions....I'm still trying to get familiar with all the scripts in MTW.


Quote[/b] ]One other thing I'm putting into LMM4 is the ability to include or exclude regions for any users map. Just optional parameters in 'Parameters.txt', for example -

IncludeRegion=ID_SWITZERLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_SCOTLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_WALES
Excellent This will make testing of regions go a lot smoother.

btw, great looking lotr map :cool:Pantha

p.s. I'll be sure to comment on anything that catches my eye Wellington. So far, so good.

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 14:25
Wellington,

one more idea for the LMM4 release.

When you have a GUI or some other way of telling LMM that a region is e.g. SAND_DESERT or LUSH, it might be good to take that into the formula. I mean, refering to the original MTW map, a large country as Sahara shouldn't have more income than Wessex just because it's larger. It's better to add a percetage in relation to the terrain into the formula.

I mean something like this:
SAND_DESERT "SETRegionIncome=(min, max)*0,5"
LUSH "SETRegionIncome=(min, max)*1"
TEMPERATE "SETRegionIncome=(min, max)*0,8"

P.P.

Wellington
01-28-2003, 14:31
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 28 2003,07:14)]Great investigative work fellows. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif I'm glad that you all were able to crack that issue regarding the strange regions....I'm still trying to get familiar with all the scripts in MTW.


Quote[/b] ]One other thing I'm putting into LMM4 is the ability to include or exclude regions for any users map. Just optional parameters in 'Parameters.txt', for example -

IncludeRegion=ID_SWITZERLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_SCOTLAND
ExcludeRegion=ID_WALES
Excellent This will make testing of regions go a lot smoother.

btw, great looking lotr map :cool:Pantha

p.s. I'll be sure to comment on anything that catches my eye Wellington. So far, so good.
BTW: You can IN THEORY exclude regions now.

In lookuptable.txt just add 'UNUSED' immediately before the ID and LMM should not use that identifier. You don't have to change/delete anything eg: -

006,007 Land ID_Mercia "Mercia"
008,009 Land UNUSED ID_Wales "Wales"
010,011 Land ID_Wessex "Wessex"
012,013 Land UNUSED ID_Ireland "Ireland"
014,015 Land UNUSED ID_Norway "Norway"
016,017 Land ID_Sweden "Sweden"

In this way LMM3 should'nt use the identifiers for wales/ireland/norway but the integrity of the structure should remain.

You can then copy this table into a specific mapfolders folder just for 1 map as LMM always looks for a copy of one these tables in the mapfolders first (which is why you see the 'Specific'/'Default' lines inthe messagelog - just to tell me where LMM is reading things from.

The original idea was to have 2 folders with the same map (eg Britain1/Britain2) and same paramters BUT with different lookuptable.txt files. Then I could test the same map but with different MTW ID's and check the difference if any.

However, I HAVE NOT TESTED ALL THIS - I'm pretty sure it works fine but not 100%

Also, I really dont like the idea of playing arounf with that table as it's critical to everything - as PP just found out

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Therefore the idea of IncludeRegion/ExcludeRegion means we are not messing about with the important files.

Welly

MR EGG
01-28-2003, 15:01
Hello all just a little problem,I prepared a map with 19 land regions & 1 sea region at 2048/1536,loaded in to LMM3 started test map run got no errors or warnings,then started map script which ran for about 20 minutes until it reached increase images 200% then locked up.sorry to interupt your train of thought at the moment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif thanks M.E

dr3mew3vr
01-28-2003, 15:30
Mr. Egg, I had the same issue earlier.

Quote[/b] ]It goes fine until it reaches this step...
(MS) Main: increasing image by 200% ...

I then get this Windows error message...
Script: C:\Program Files\LukMapMaker\LukMapMaker.vbs
Line: 2164
Char: 3
Error: The parameter is incorrect.

Here's Welly's reply...

Quote[/b] ]Can you look in the messagelog.txt for that run and tell mw LMM3 says the mapsize is. The lines you are looking for are -

19:50:26 â„¢ Starting Main routines ...
19:50:26 â„¢ Main: loading "Britain.bmp" map ...
19:50:26 â„¢ Main: ... mapsize = 485x485

This error is not being issued by LMM but rather by the csImage package.

The problem is that the graphics package we are using for all this map manipulation is saying one of the paremters is incorrect. Now all that line of code (line 2164) in LMM is doing is requesting csImage to make a new image in memory, ready for the resizing of lukmap to lukmap2. As the only parameters on that line are the height and width for the new image I can only suspect it's a limitation in the graphics package.

I'm curious. Pantha doesn't seem to have any probs with the larger size. It may be our systems. Pantha, Mr. Egg, what are your system specs? Here are mine...

Win98SE, Athlon 1.2ghz, 256mb RAM, GF2 64mb Nvidia drivers, DX 8.1

Wellington
01-28-2003, 15:33
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 28 2003,08:01)]Hello all just a little problem,I prepared a map with 19 land regions & 1 sea region at 2048/1536,loaded in to LMM3 started test map run got no errors or warnings,then started map script which ran for about 20 minutes until it reached increase images 200% then locked up.sorry to interupt your train of thought at the moment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif thanks M.E
I doubt it's locked up. This is a very CPU processing routine as it's rescaling the small lukmap to the large lukmap2. I had a problem with the Graphics package (csImage) with this rescaling process as csImage ALWAYS uses a filter when rescaling/resizing. This is a problem for LMM as such filters always amend the colours which f**ks up the whole shooting match.

The only solution was for me to write my rescaling routine which did'nt apply filters or introduce different colours. Whilst it works correctly it's a pig to run because of all the call's required. Rescalling using my algorithm requires calling csImage 1 to get the lukmap pixel, and 4 times to write the correct lukmap2 pixels. For an MTW size map that means -

lukmap - 2048*1536 = 3,145,728 pixels read
lukmap2 - 4096*3072 = 12,582,912 pixels written

Which is ... er ... 15 million calls betwen LMM and csImage

Not nice and VERY slow but it was quick and easy. I'll be creating a DLL for some of these CPU-intensive routines eventually which will solve the problem as I'll just get the Windows handle for image in memory and amend it directly without using csImage. This will solve the problem .. but for now .. sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

One thing. The GUI for LMM is one of Jim Warringtons "specials". Every Windows 'expert' will tell you VB Script does not support non-modal dialogs (as you see with in LMM with the running log). They say it can't be done. Rubbish. A certain company DONT WANT YOU DO IT Other "specials" have been done in the past, and have had the source code freely passed around the Net. Nothing 'funny' - just excellent ways of doing things that in theory can't be done. The result of issuing such 'open source code' was that future releases and upgrade packs of certain products from certain companies deliberatly stopped it. Hence, this explains why I'm happy to release the source for LMM but anyone who downloads LMM in it's current VB Script version will NEVER get the source for the OCX.

Why am I telling you this? Because if you click on the GUI during this CPU intentive processing Windows will tell you "Not Responding" and I suspect that's why you think it may have locked up. Not true. It is 'responding'. Just let it run, ignore Windows and it will finish. If it does'nt I'm a liar

I'll put a % counter in this routine for LMM4, just for a bit of visual confirmation.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 15:48
Wellington,

wow, that is indeed a lot of processing.... Thanks for the explanation. It makes things more clear. And yes please put a % part for some CPU intensive tasks so that we get a feeling when things will be ready.

Wellington, I get the feeling you didn't see my small idea about the income formula at the beginning of this page. Am I right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Sorry for asking but I think it would improve LMM and it might be easier to implement now before you finish writing the code for the income formula already.

P.P.

dr3mew3vr
01-28-2003, 15:54
Quote[/b] ]LMM scans the users map from left to right. It tries to find adjacent regions by looking at the next 1 or 2 pixels. This can go wrong if a "Pink" boder is too thick. The referance '.bmp' ("REf_Adjacents.bmp") tries to show exactly where LMM has determined 2 different regions exists. All it shows is a single white pixel that LMM has determined (via the LMM program logic) represents the 1st indication (scanning left to right) that there are 2 different regions that are also adjacent.

Here's what I've noticed about the white pixels that refer to differing adjacent regions, since LMM scans left to right. They indicate regions that meet at a point, i.e. corners of adjacent regions, and most importantly, they just indicate the extreme leftmost portion of a region. The extreme rightmost portion and the vertical Y axis is not indicated--unless at a corner of adjacent regions. For most maps this may not be important, but strangely shaped regions (your horse shoe ex.) could pose a bit of a problem. I'm not sure of the feasibility, but what about optional scans (that one could input in scripts or through a gui) that can scan right to left, top to bottom, or bottom to top? Would that take care of some strangely shaped regions.

MR EGG
01-28-2003, 16:05
Thanks guys,the new problem is its not creating DicsXref file so I can't produce any script and getting the same error message as dr3mew3vr

Script: C:\Program Files\LukMapMaker\LukMapMaker.vbs
Line: 2164
Char: 3
Error: The parameter is incorrect.
Heres my system spec

Win98SE, Athlon 2.1ghz, 704mb RAM, GF2 64mb Nvidia drivers, DX 9.0

Wellington
01-28-2003, 16:19
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 28 2003,09:05)]Thanks guys,the new problem is its not creating DicsXref file so I can't produce any script and getting the same error message as dr3mew3vr

Script: C:\Program Files\LukMapMaker\LukMapMaker.vbs
Line: 2164
Char: 3
Error: The parameter is incorrect.
Heres my system spec

Win98SE, Athlon 2.1ghz, 704mb RAM, GF2 64mb Nvidia drivers, DX 9.0
Let me have a quick think about this. The problem may well be that I've considered LMM running on my system and hav'nt accounted for how other op/sys may handle storage issues.

I checked the csImage package limitations when Dreamweaver mentioned this and the package handles very big images ok. However, one potential problem is that if you check the code (the term and init subroutines) and the comments above I deliberately aquired all objects at the beginnning and did'nt release them until the end. This could cause memory problems. I thought it was a good idea to help anyone who wanted to check the code ... thinbking about it perhaps it was'nt.

Let me check a couple of things. I have a few tools for this sort of thing. I'll try changing the code for LMM3 a little and if I notice any significant decrease in memory usage I'll upload a new version (just the vbs) that you can now replace the exisitng version with and try again. Give me some time Mr Egg and I'll post back later.

MR EGG
01-28-2003, 16:23
Thanks Welly but don't let me distract your attention from more important issues http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-28-2003, 16:29
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 28 2003,08:48)]Wellington, I get the feeling you didn't see my small idea about the income formula at the beginning of this page. Am I right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Sorry for asking but I think it would improve LMM and it might be easier to implement now before you finish writing the code for the income formula already.

P.P.
PP,

I don't disagree with you. However, I'd really like to avoid doing much "Script parameter amendments" at present as I'll be doing a proper GUI for that eventually.

One point. The reason I decided to do the
"SETRegionIncome=(100,400)" parameter was NOT to provide a better/more correct Script.

The real reason was I realised that just using pixelcnt could cause problems with some testing, as if the map land regions were very big LMM would be generting BIG numbers and we have no idea what the effect of that would be in MTW. We don't yet know what the limits are (if any&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Hence, I only put the limit in to avoid unforeseen problems.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-28-2003, 16:39
Ah, okay Wellington. I understand. Indeed better not too create too much overhead on the basics before we finish testing. But just wanted to let you know before you finished writing that code. I hate it myself when ideas come in "late" when most of the work is already done. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

P.P.

Wellington
01-28-2003, 17:47
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 28 2003,09:39)]Ah, okay Wellington. I understand. Indeed better not too create too much overhead on the basics before we finish testing. But just wanted to let you know before you finished writing that code. I hate it myself when ideas come in "late" when most of the work is already done. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

P.P.
Yeah,

There was "a method in my madness" as we say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The whole idea of the "Script Editor" would be a VB6 GUI that basically shows the users map with combos/dropdowns etc and that would -

First 'lead you through' any amendsment to the Script eg -

- select regions that are EASTERN_EUROPEAN/ISLAMIC etc
- select HILLY/MOUNTAIN for each region etc

Second allow you specify (for each region) by clicking on it -

- faction owner
- troops
- buildings
... etc

and then rebuild the Script. All the info would come from the LMM gebnerated stuff (specifically a map image, and the details in XrefMS.txt).

Probably be part of LMM as it makes sense. Whilst I'm doing the VB6 GUI for LMM (all paramters will be clickable ) I also design the structure for the Editor as well. The LMM VB6 is released - I carry on with writing the Editor.

That's the plan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .. then again "the best laid plans ..." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Welly

Wellington
01-28-2003, 18:31
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 28 2003,08:54)]
Quote[/b] ]LMM scans the users map from left to right. It tries to find adjacent regions by looking at the next 1 or 2 pixels. This can go wrong if a "Pink" boder is too thick. The referance '.bmp' ("REf_Adjacents.bmp") tries to show exactly where LMM has determined 2 different regions exists. All it shows is a single white pixel that LMM has determined (via the LMM program logic) represents the 1st indication (scanning left to right) that there are 2 different regions that are also adjacent.

Here's what I've noticed about the white pixels that refer to differing adjacent regions, since LMM scans left to right. They indicate regions that meet at a point, i.e. corners of adjacent regions, and most importantly, they just indicate the extreme leftmost portion of a region. The extreme rightmost portion and the vertical Y axis is not indicated--unless at a corner of adjacent regions. For most maps this may not be important, but strangely shaped regions (your horse shoe ex.) could pose a bit of a problem. I'm not sure of the feasibility, but what about optional scans (that one could input in scripts or through a gui) that can scan right to left, top to bottom, or bottom to top? Would that take care of some strangely shaped regions.
Yeah, thats a very good idea.

First it would be dead easy to implement - "ScanAdjacents=LFTB" (left/right/top/bottom) which would control the parameters for the 2 loops. There's only one thing that put's me off. The main principles of LMM when I was thinking/designing it were -

1) do as much as you can
2) provide as much info as you can
3) make it easy

Whilst this 'little group' of ours understands what's happending in LMM and see the objective of a "ScanAdjacents" parameter I'm not convinced everyone (newbies?) would really understand it - regardless of the documentation. Also I absolutely hate adding complications to software. Too many programmers make the software easy to code, but difficult to use. IMHO the approach should be make it easy to use - and if this makes it difficult to code then so be it.

Anyway, this scanning for adjacents routine in LMM has been recoded 5 or more times now - and I've never been satisfied with any version http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

AT present this routine kicks in when the lukmap has been 'half done' but before the pink land borders gave been removed (and before the land border colours are added). The best solution, considering this stage of the processing, would appear to be -

"if any pixel is adjacent to a different colour, and that colour is pink, that scan outwards in that direction until a none pink colour is found. Then we have 2 adjacent regions"

Unfortunately even that logic does'nt work for all cases, and it could introduce a lot more processing overhead. One other thing. Maybe it would be better to code this routine in a different stage of the processing? Different info is collected by LMM at different stages in building the LukMap's, depending on how 'convenient/easy' it is to get this info.

Maybe there is no 100% correct solution that will work every time for all cases. Anyway I'm still thinking about this.

Any thoughts in this area would be especially welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MR EGG
01-28-2003, 22:19
Welly thanks for the vbs still not working with the large maps.
If the parameter that is incorect is the map size could it be a preperation error on my behalf although I've checked this and can't find anything,P.P has had success with the larger maps which looks like a memory problem although I have quite a good memory base.
cheers M.E:)

Wellington
01-28-2003, 23:22
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 28 2003,15:19)]Welly thanks for the vbs still not working with the large maps.
If the parameter that is incorect is the map size could it be a preperation error on my behalf although I've checked this and can't find anything,P.P has had success with the larger maps which looks like a memory problem although I have quite a good memory base.
cheers M.E:)
Mr Egg,

Please do the following -

Create a zip folder containing ALL of the below -

- the ChestySoft DLL you downloaded from their site
- the LMM (Lukmapmaker/LMM3v2 - whatever) you have been running
- ALL of the LMM related text files that pertain to this map -
a) LBMpalette.txt
b) BIFpalette.txt
c) Lookuptable.txt
d) Parameters.txt
e) Factions.txt
f) RegionNames.txt
The rule here is to check whgich iof the above files reside in the
same directory as the map. Others will reside in the defaults folder.

VERY IMPORTANT: also zip the "Ref.Features.bmp" that was created for your map. This file should ALWAYS be created first - and there is a VERY good reason for this.


DO NOT SEND ME YOUR ACTUAL MAP - just the 'Ref_Features.bmp'.


(BTW: there is a very special reason for LMM creating "Ref_Features.bmp" which I hav'nt explained yet. This will become clear after the release of LMM4. Just think about this. LMM extracts user drawn features from the users map. These features are IMMEDIATELY drawn onto a clear white image and saved as "Ref_Features.txt". Therefore, this image is EXACTLY the same as the original users map - think about it - it will become clear in LMM5/6)

Zip all this (NO USER MAPS PLEASE&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and E-mail it to mel. I'll create a special folder and see what happens on XP.

Welly

Wellington
01-29-2003, 00:03
*********************************************
*** IMPORTANT ***
*********************************************

Guys,

I won't be progressing further until we (and I mean WE) can resolve Mr Eggs problems with running LMM3 with large map images. Really, there is no point in us all 'progressing in our own directions' whilst one of our small group is experiencing op/sys problems.

LMM3 is not perfect but it seems to work ok on some op/sys and pretty poor on others. Obviously I have to sort this out and any clues I can elicit from you guys will be most appreciated. As LMMx is intended to be a utility for "The Org's" patrons we will only have the same problem later on. Therefore let's solve it now.

So - I'm running on XP home edition - I ahve experienced no problems with LMM up to now.

You other guys? What have you been running LMM on? Any ideas?

Just one point. When this project is finished there will be a few people asking a few questions regarding LMM. YOU guiys are NOW the experts in this. Better to crack any unknown op/sys problems now

Welly

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 00:23
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 28 2003,23:03)]*********************************************
*** IMPORTANT ***
*********************************************

Guys,

I won't be progressing further until we (and I mean WE) can resolve Mr Eggs problems with running LMM3 with large map images. Really, there is no point in us all 'progressing in our own directions' whilst one of our small group is experiencing op/sys problems.

LMM3 is not perfect but it seems to work ok on some op/sys and pretty poor on others. Obviously I have to sort this out and any clues I can elicit from you guys will be most appreciated. As LMMx is intended to be a utility for "The Org's" patrons we will only have the same problem later on. Therefore let's solve it now.

So - I'm running on XP home edition - I ahve experienced no problems with LMM up to now.

You other guys? What have you been running LMM on? Any ideas?

Just one point. When this project is finished there will be a few people asking a few questions regarding LMM. YOU guiys are NOW the experts in this. Better to crack any unknown op/sys problems now

Welly
Wellington,

I just came home very late (23:30) so I won't be doing a lot of testing today. I had a lovely Citrix Metaframe course this evening and after that I had a mechanical problem with my car...

But to answer one of your questions, I'm running LMM on the following systems:

P3-450, 192MB, Windows 2000 SP2
P3-450, 128MB, Windows 2000 SP3
P3-733, 256MB, Windows 2000 SP2

My laptop (the pc with only 128MB) is installed with dual -boot. The other OS is Win98 (S.E. I believe). I will try to do a quick test in a few minutes but I still need to register the DLL's etc. If things take too long (my laptop runs for 3,5 hours to generate my LOTR map) I will only post my findings tomorrow.

I experienced problems till now but when I closely looked, it was almost always a problem that I used an old Parameters.txt from a previous LMM version. What also makes LMM crash if you specify the wrong SameRegion or LandBridge colours in Parameters.txt. Using a right Parameter.txt file solved almost all my problems.

Hope this helps.

P.P.

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 01:15
Wellington,

LMM3 is now running my LOTR map in Windows'98 SE. It will probably run for 3,5 hours so I won't wait for it. I'll pass you guys the results when I wake up.

One small note so far is that Win98 seems to be quicker then Windows 2000... When I compare the first part of the message.log, it seems to be 20% quicker I'll post more about this in the morning too.

Speak to you guys tomorrow,

P.P.

MR EGG
01-29-2003, 03:18
Sorry to be a pain guys, thanks for your patience
yet anouther error message:

Line:2182
Char:3
the parameter is incorect
code:8000FFF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

dr3mew3vr
01-29-2003, 06:03
Where exactly can I find the new VB6 and what is it's name? I checked the beta section at the org uploads and it wasn't there. Didn't seem to be at 3ddownloads too, because the last modified date for anything is Jan 26.

If they removed it from the uploads to be transferred to the 3ddownloads directory, can one of you email it to me in the meantime? my email addy is dennis_n@pacbell.net

thx

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 08:11
Guys,

I just checked my laptop which was running the Windows'98 SE test and it crashed at the "Increasing image by 200%" section. Just like Mr Egg... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I received the following error:

Script: C:\Lmm3\LukMapMaker.vbs
Line: 2164
Char: 3
Error: The parameter is incorrect.
Code: 8000FFFF
Source: csImageFileTrial.Manage

The bad thing is that I used exactly the same pc and exactly the same files that I use with my dual-boot Windows 2000 (which always work) so I know they are error free. I of course installed Windows Script Host 5.6 prior to running LMM so I have the newest version. WshltwtNonModelDialog.ocx is ofcourse registered too.

In my opinion it looks like an error with Windows'98 handling the csImageFileTrial.DLL while processing the immense checkup and writing of colours. I tried to check at the Chestysoft website for known errors with Windows'98 but the only thing that I could find was an indirect saying that everything should work fine in Windows'98.

Hope this is enough info for you Wellington to look more into detail at this.

P.P.

PS What I said yesterday about Windows 98 running the script a little quicker then in Windows 2000, it looks like it's just a little bit quicker but not in extreme amounts. It's probably a little quicker because my Windows 2000 uses more CPU for small processes in the background.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 09:22
PP - I agree 100%

The key to this problem is that it is the 1st time LMM calls csImage to create a large image ready for the rescaling of LukMap to LukMap2. For large maps (MTW sizes) this could be a big depenmding on the users system. For the LukMap the memory required is 9meg (2048x1536x3), plus whatever overhead csImage requires.


So, the Lukmap is already sitting in memory. LMM calls csImage and says "prepare another image that is (4098x3072)" - 40meg - a big step. So -

- LMM calls csImage for a new image in memory
- csImage calls Windows to ask for 40meg
*** problem occurs ***
- Windows returns an error to csImage
- csImage DOES'NT really check for exactly what the Windows error is
- csImage presumes LMM has given a bad parameter and falls
- LMM never gets control back
- we (us guys) never know what the Windows problem was


Ok, this is the solution ...

LMM3v3
------

There is a new file in the org's test downloads -

TEST_LMM3v3_BETA_Version

All I've done is added another parameter to parmeters.txt -

"WriteHiResMaps=NO"

Mr Egg - add this parameter to your paramters.txt - all is does is NOT create the lukmap2 (still creates the smaller 9 meg lukmap), does'nt call csImage for this step and does'nt ask windows for another 40meg.

After LMM3v3 has run (and created your script) open the Lukmap in Windows paint, resize it by 200% (Image/STretch Screw .. ) and save as Lukmap2.bmp - problem solved


I'm also adding this parameter to LMM4 for the same reason. ALso, maybe not all users want the hi res stuff - depending on their PC. If they always run in lo res whats the point of LMM creating 40meg images that they'll never use.


LMM4
----

I'm rethinking this whole area for LMM4. LMM4 uses a 'trick' to create the TGA's (you'll see - you can look at the source code when I release it). I think I can use the same 'trick' to create the lukmap2 and AVOID calling csImage to give us 40meg. The other advantage of this is LMM will NOT then be doing 15 million calls to then create lukmap2 - so it runs a lot faster.

No guarentee this new method will solve memory problems. As MTW uses 40meg maps (the TGA's) there is'nt a great deal we can do about it. ALso I know the Lukmaps size is only 700kb (not 40meg). However, it's compressed from a 40meg image and before LMM can compress it LMM has to have the real size to start off with. Still I can do this in 'chunks'. Create a bit, compress it, stream it out, get the next bit. That reduces the memory requirement - but takes time toi write http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I was trying to avoid using 'tricky' programming to do some things. If the programming is simple I can write it fast. Now I'm rethinking some of the CPU-intensive routines. As I've totally restructured LMM4 now seems the right time to do it.

Welly

MR EGG
01-29-2003, 11:47
Great work guys thanks I'm just trying to run it now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 12:10
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,08:22)]After LMM3v3 has run (and created your script) open the Lukmap in Windows paint, resize it by 200% (Image/STretch Screw .. ) and save as Lukmap2.bmp - problem solved
Wellington,

I'm not sure how this works with Paint in Windows XP but my Windows 2000 Paint (version 5.0 build 2195) doesn't use the stretch function correctly. It changes the colors at the edges of each border just like most graphical programs. If you would use this newly generated BMP, convert it to PNG and then convert it to LBM via Mithel's tool, you'll end up with a lot of white pixels.
Chances are that it will still work in MTW put it won't look pretty because most colours to define the borders got lost in the process.

I'm not sure how Paint in Windows'98 handles the stretch but I can check it later today. If it also screws up then there is no quick fix for high resolution maps. I mean, if the correct strech functionality is only introduced in XP paint, then we still don't have a fix for Win'98 users.

Wellington, could you double check the stretch function in your XP paint?

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 12:29
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,05:10)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,08:22)]After LMM3v3 has run (and created your script) open the Lukmap in Windows paint, resize it by 200% (Image/STretch Screw .. ) and save as Lukmap2.bmp - problem solved
Wellington,

I'm not sure how this works with Paint in Windows XP but my Windows 2000 Paint (version 5.0 build 2195) doesn't use the stretch function correctly. It changes the colors at the edges of each border just like most graphical programs. If you would use this newly generated BMP, convert it to PNG and then convert it to LBM via Mithel's tool, you'll end up with a lot of white pixels.
Chances are that it will still work in MTW put it won't look pretty because most colours to define the borders got lost in the process.

I'm not sure how Paint in Windows'98 handles the stretch but I can check it later today. If it also screws up then there is no quick fix for high resolution maps. I mean, if the correct strech functionality is only introduced in XP paint, then we still don't have a fix for Win'98 users.

Wellington, could you double check the stretch function in your XP paint?

P.P.
PP - Your right. I'm being stupid (or going blind&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paint XP also applies filters. This means every single prghics product I've got uses filters and NONE allow a simple resizing whilst retaining EXACTLY the same colours. Is this weird or not?

So, looks like it does'nt work Mr Egg - my apologies.

Anyway LMM4 is doing it different now. It stills need to use csImage for some of the stuff but I'm going to reduce the csImage dependancy as much as possible.

I was playing with this last night, just for fun, trying to use the Paint API to pass it the handle of the image in memory and use a WSH wrapper to call the resizing function ... could'nt find a good wrapper for this though so I gave up ... just as well ... still would'nt have worked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

LMM4 will sort all this out hopefully - just use csImage for the lores stuff and create the LukMap2/MapTex2 a different way.

Welly

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 12:40
Well, there is one option left but it would require more work and more processing power.

* Prepare a new BMP image for LMM but now on 4096*3072 instead of 2048*1536.
* put "WriteHiResMaps=NO" in paramters.txt
* Run LMM and voila, you can use your map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-29-2003, 12:50
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,05:40)]Well, there is one option left but it would require more work and more processing power.

* Prepare a new BMP image for LMM but now on 4096*3072 instead of 2048*1536.
* put "WriteHiResMaps=NO" in paramters.txt
* Run LMM and voila, you can use your map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
PP - Good Idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Unfortunately it 'probably' would'nt work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

The reason is all the "Ref_xxxx.bmp" files that would then be asking csImage for 40 meg You could try setting these off in the paramters.txt by coding all the No parms for these files -

WriteCPOBmp=NO
WriteOriginsBmp=NO
WriteLandSeaBmp=NO
WriteAdjacentBmp=NO
WriteFeaturesBmp=NO
WriteColoursBmp=NO
WriteIdentifiersBmp=NO


You could try it It may work.

What I'll do for now is write a prog that just sizes the lo res to the hi res (nothing fancy). Ok, maybe it still requires 40 meg with with no LMM running - you might just get away with it. I'll write it now and upload it.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 13:22
Mr Egg - try this.

Copy the code below into a new text file. Save it as "CreateLukMap2.vbs" and copy it into the same folder that your Lukmap.bmp is. Run it (it still takes up 50 meg of memory but without all the other LMM stuff it may just work). If it fails it will fail immediately with the same error. It it works juust wait It takes 5 minutes to run on a 1600.



' START OF CODE
' *** just increases an image by 200% without losing colours
Option Explicit
Dim W, H, fromfile, Image1, Image2, OurPath
Const Colour_White = "FFFFFF" ' (ie: RGB ="255,255,255")
Dim Image_Package : Image_Package = "csImageFileTrial.Manage"
Set Image1 = CreateObject(Image_Package)
Set Image2 = CreateObject(Image_Package)
OurPath = GetLocalDirectory()
fromfile = OurPath & "LukMap.bmp"
Image1.ReadFile fromfile
W = Image1.Width
H = Image1.Height
MsgBox "Starting"
Call Increase200Perc()
MsgBox "Finished"
Wscript.Quit
' ***
' *** create lukmap2 by increasing lukmap by 200%
' ***
Sub Increase200Perc()
Dim x, y, x2, y2, colour
Image2.NewImage W*2, H*2, Colour_White
For x = 0 to W-1
For y = 0 to H-1
colour = Image1.Pixel(X, Y)
x2 = x*2
y2 = y*2
Image2.Pixel(x2, y2) = colour
Image2.Pixel(x2+1, y2) = colour
Image2.Pixel(x2, y2+1) = colour
Image2.Pixel(x2+1, y2+1) = colour
Next
Next
Image2.Writefile OurPath & "Lukmap2.bmp"
End Sub
' ***
' *** Get our (ie: this folders&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif pathname
' ***
Function GetLocalDirectory()
Const sMe = "[GetLocalDirectory], "
Dim iFile ' as integer
' find the LAST backslash...
iFile = InStrRev(Wscript.ScriptFullName, "\")
BugAssert (iFile > 0), sMe & " file path problem " ' if backslash not found...
' get the path to this script...
GetLocalDirectory = Left(Wscript.ScriptFullName, iFile) ' path (inc "\")...
End Function
' ***
' *** for critical errors
' ***
Sub BugAssert (bTest, sErrMsg)
If (bTest) then Exit Sub
MsgBox "Error Detected by BugAssert: " & vbCr & vbCr & sErrMsg, vbCritical, _
" > "
WScript.Quit
End Sub
' END OF CODE

dr3mew3vr
01-29-2003, 13:33
Good news guys The WriteHiResMaps=NO parameter worked from me and guess what...the resizing in MS Windows Paint for Win98SE doesn't distort the colors. I'm checking it out in Photoshop at this second, and so far it looks exactly the same as the lukmap.bmp...only twice the size Great work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 13:42
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,12:22)]Mr Egg - try this.

Copy the code below into a new text file. Save it as "CreateLukMap2.vbs" and copy it into the same folder that your Lukmap.bmp is. Run it (it still takes up 50 meg of memory but without all the other LMM stuff it may just work). If it fails it will fail immediately with the same error. It it works juust wait It takes 5 minutes to run on a 1600.
Wellington,

I checked this in Win98 and it returned with this error after a second:

Line: 23
Char: 2

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 14:08
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 29 2003,12:33)]Good news guys The WriteHiResMaps=NO parameter worked from me and guess what...the resizing in MS Windows Paint for Win98SE doesn't distort the colors. I'm checking it out in Photoshop at this second, and so far it looks exactly the same as the lukmap.bmp...only twice the size Great work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Dreamweaver, you're right

I double checked it with my Windows 98 and I see the old PaintBrush is the first program I ran into which doesn't use filters I also have a proper LukMap2 now

I tried using the PBrush.exe inside Windows 2000 to see if it still works but unfortunately windows overrides it and starts the paint.exe instead... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Good progress http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 14:12
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,06:42)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,12:22)]Mr Egg - try this.

Copy the code below into a new text file. Save it as "CreateLukMap2.vbs" and copy it into the same folder that your Lukmap.bmp is. Run it (it still takes up 50 meg of memory but without all the other LMM stuff it may just work). If it fails it will fail immediately with the same error. It it works juust wait It takes 5 minutes to run on a 1600.
Wellington,

I checked this in Win98 and it returned with this error after a second:

Line: 23
Char: 2
That's the line where it's calling csImage for a big map -

"Image2.NewImage W*2, H*2, Colour_White"

Exactly the problem as in LMM. Needs 50 meg of memory.
If you went into another directory, copied a small .bmp into it (anything) and this prog - renamed the small .bmp to "lukmap.bmp" and ran it again it would work.

dr3mew3vr
01-29-2003, 14:14
All that new code stuff is just extra work, I have gotten the fullsize lukmap 1 and 2 to work in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I tried it with Faction Example 1 using the Almohads. I just copied and pasted the Britain map to the fullsize MapTex and extended the pink lines to the edge of the map (exactly what I did before). The only difference this time is since I used LMM3v3 with the changed parameter.txt I had to resize Lukmap.bmp on Microsoft Paint on Win98SE...

Image>Stretch/Skew>200% Horizontal 200% Vertical>OK.

This works without screwing up stretching the colors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Ok, I then put all the necessary files into MTW and tested for 30 turns...runs like a charm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Also, remember how I mentioned if you click on a region (previously when using smaller lukmap sizes) that the graphics of that region would get corrupted (Mr. Egg has a few screenshots of this side effect on this thread)? With the correct MTW lukmap size, this unfortunate effect is also fixed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

I'm very happy with the results so far. It looks like everything is going as planned. Great work Welly and everyone else. It looks like this campaign map will be soon be cracked

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 14:22
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 29 2003,13:14)]All that new code stuff is just extra work, I have gotten the fullsize lukmap 1 and 2 to work in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I tried it with Faction Example 1 using the Almohads. I just copied and pasted the Britain map to the fullsize MapTex and extended the pink lines to the edge of the map (exactly what I did before). The only difference this time is since I used LMM3v3 with the changed parameter.txt I had to resize Lukmap.bmp on Microsoft Paint on Win98SE...

Image>Stretch/Skew>200% Horizontal 200% Vertical>OK.

This works without screwing up stretching the colors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Ok, I then put all the necessary files into MTW and tested for 30 turns...runs like a charm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Also, remember how I mentioned if you click on a region (previously when using smaller lukmap sizes) that the graphics of that region would get corrupted (Mr. Egg has a few screenshots of this side effect on this thread)? With the correct MTW lukmap size, this unfortunate effect is also fixed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

I'm very happy with the results so far. It looks like everything is going as planned. Great work Welly and everyone else. It looks like this campaign map will be soon be cracked
Great

Seems that everything is going on a roll now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington, do you feel happy too with this solution for Windows'98 users? As you can see in my earlier reply, I double checked if it worked (and it did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) so we can safely assume it will work for everyone.
We now covered LMM3 testing with Windows'98, Windows 2000 and Windows XP.

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 14:41
PP/Dreamweaver,

Great As long as there is a solution I'm reasonably ok with that.

Having said that the intention is for LMM to 'make it easy' so if I can avoid some of these inherent problems with big files I will. Problem is you can never cater for all users configs/opsys. If we can get LMM to 'do everything' for 90% of users - and have solutions/work-a-arounds for another 9% (there's always 1% you can never help&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif then thats probably as good as it will get.

Can you 2 help Mr Egg out if he still has problems with his maps. I'm going back to LMM4 for now - still a bit to do - but now LMM3 is providing 'the basics' I'm happy enough with that.

Great work guys

One last Question. What are thoughts on LMM giving the option for the user to input a hi res or lo res map? I've never been happy with this and I think I'll take it for LMM4. I can't see any reason why anyone would want to use a hi res map as input to LMM (any reasons you can think of?) I and now we see some of the problems with memory and big maps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The users MUST always provide the lo res map? What do you think?

Welly

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 14:54
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,13:41)]PP/Dreamweaver,

Great As long as there is a solution I'm reasonably ok with that.

Having said that the intention is for LMM to 'make it easy' so if I can avoid some of these inherent problems with big files I will. Problem is you can never cater for all users configs/opsys. If we can get LMM to 'do everything' for 90% of users - and have solutions/work-a-arounds for another 9% (there's always 1% you can never help&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif then thats probably as good as it will get.

Can you 2 help Mr Egg out if he still has problems with his maps. I'm going back to LMM4 for now - still a bit to do - but now LMM3 is providing 'the basics' I'm happy enough with that.

Great work guys

One last Question. What are thoughts on LMM giving the option for the user to input a hi res or lo res map? I've never been happy with this and I think I'll take it for LMM4. I can't see any reason why anyone would want to use a hi res map as input to LMM (any reasons you can think of?) I and now we see some of the problems with memory and big maps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The users MUST always provide the lo res map? What do you think?

Welly
Wellington,

I agree with you that providing a LowRes map is enough in most cases. No need to put stress on resources to create highly detailed LBM or BIF files (and the creation of the Ref_BMP's).
But I have one problem with the TGA. As you wrote earlier, in LMM4 you want to create the TGA's as well. But that would mean that the MapTex2 will just be an enlarged MapTex. I tested this out myself and I was not satified with the results. I didn't like the resolution of the new province names, certain edges, etc (while playing the map in MTW, it is usually zoomed more then 100%).
Before you started writing LMM I already created my LOTR map on 4096*3072 so I will always use this one and never the one LMM provides (except for testing LMM ofcourse)

So in my case I would like Low-Res for bif and lbm creation and Hi-Res for TGA creation.

And about the Windows'98 issue, I'm fine with your policy. As long as there is a good installation.txt, it shouldn't give any problems.

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 15:16
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,07:54)]Wellington,

I agree with you that providing a LowRes map is enough in most cases. No need to put stress on resources to create highly detailed LBM or BIF files (and the creation of the Ref_BMP's).
But I have one problem with the TGA. As you wrote earlier, in LMM4 you want to create the TGA's as well. But that would mean that the MapTex2 will just be an enlarged MapTex. I tested this out myself and I was not satified with the results. I didn't like the resolution of the new province names, certain edges, etc (while playing the map in MTW, it is usually zoomed more then 100%).
Before you started writing LMM I already created my LOTR map on 4096*3072 so I will always use this one and never the one LMM provides (except for testing LMM ofcourse)

So in my case I would like Low-Res for bif and lbm creation and Hi-Res for TGA creation.

And about the Windows'98 issue, I'm fine with your policy. As long as there is a good installation.txt, it shouldn't give any problems.

P.P.
PP,

Yes. It's no good us all doing a professional job with LMM if the documentaions crappy. The installion guide will still be small but I intend to write 2 things -

- A Technical Guide (really giving detail how LMM works and how it does things)
- A Parameters Guide (this is probably the best place to detail all op/sys dependant comments)

As regards the TGA's - not a problem. The whole design of LMM is based on 'optional' input. It has to be as users will be creating/adding/changing things as they go along. Therefore, we could do something like

- if the user has provided a 'Britain_HiRes.bmp' in the mapfolder then check the size (4096x3072) and then create the MapTex2.TGA from this.

BTW: LMM4 creates the 36meg MapTex2.TGA from a 36meg xxx.bmp in around 3 seconds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Having said that I might send you an E-Mail about this - a couple of issues to think about.

Welly

MR EGG
01-29-2003, 15:48
Hi guys just ran LMM3v3 with the 2048/1536 no prolems, script files done.just tested w/paint o/s w98 enlarges luk maps with no disstortion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif .Just one thing happens when loaded in MTW it locks before the first turn when you scroll across the map,but this must be a colour pallete issue.before i amend some of the pallete entries could any one confirm this happening to them .Thanks for your help guys M.E

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 16:03
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 29 2003,14:48)]Hi guys just ran LMM3v3 with the 2048/1536 no prolems, script files done.just tested w/paint o/s w98 enlarges luk maps with no disstortion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif .Just one thing happens when loaded in MTW it locks before the first turn when you scroll across the map,but this must be a colour pallete issue.before i amend some of the pallete entries could any one confirm this happening to them .Thanks for your help guys M.E
M.E. could you describe exactly how you created your LBM files?

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 16:14
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 29 2003,08:48)]Hi guys just ran LMM3v3 with the 2048/1536 no prolems, script files done.just tested w/paint o/s w98 enlarges luk maps with no disstortion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif .Just one thing happens when loaded in MTW it locks before the first turn when you scroll across the map,but this must be a colour pallete issue.before i amend some of the pallete entries could any one confirm this happening to them .Thanks for your help guys M.E
M.E.

Have you installed the bifs also? I expect them to work ok with MTW map sizes.

I don't know how many regions you are using on your map. If you are using a lot there 'may' still be a problem with the "BIFPalette.txt" file. I had to type all these RGB numbers by hand (and rechecked only the 1st 32 - I got pissed off with it, and went out for a beer, and never checked the rest - the 1st 32 were fine for what I was testing).

PP confirmed a few posts back that he'd checked these and they looked ok. If you wish to confirm this yourself then open the original MTW bif "minilukup.bif" with BifReader and check ALL the colour rgb's alongside the numeric values in the BIFpalette.txt file.

I can only presume any lock-up problem would be directly related to either the "minilukup.bif" or the "minimap.bif" and as the green quadralateral moves over the minimap as you scroll maybe it hits a colour that does'nt match with the lukmap stuff. Just a thought.

I can't see it being a problem with either the Maptex or LukMap - they've already loaded ok.

Another possibility is the MTW placing of titles on the regions. It seems logical that (for speed) MTW only checks positions that are currently visable. As you scroll it has to recalculate x/ys and maybe then it hits a problem and locks.

Try zooming in and out. Same problem? Check the extreme edges of the visable map when it locks up. What do you see. Is anything 'missing'?

Welly

(Nice to hear you solved the lukmap problem - I always thought Paint did'nt use filters for resizing - PP consfused me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif - http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 16:15
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,14:16)]PP,

Yes. It's no good us all doing a professional job with LMM if the documentaions crappy. The installion guide will still be small but I intend to write 2 things -

- A Technical Guide (really giving detail how LMM works and how it does things)
- A Parameters Guide (this is probably the best place to detail all op/sys dependant comments)

As regards the TGA's - not a problem. The whole design of LMM is based on 'optional' input. It has to be as users will be creating/adding/changing things as they go along. Therefore, we could do something like

- if the user has provided a 'Britain_HiRes.bmp' in the mapfolder then check the size (4096x3072) and then create the MapTex2.TGA from this.

BTW: LMM4 creates the 36meg MapTex2.TGA from a 36meg xxx.bmp in around 3 seconds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Having said that I might send you an E-Mail about this - a couple of issues to think about.

Welly
Wellington,

I haven't been thinking about the documentation yet so don't have to many good ideas right now. I'll have to sink it in to say something which makes sense... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

About the design of "optional" input, I agree 100%. And yes, please implement this 'Britain_HiRes.bmp'/'Britain_LowRes.bmp' thing for TGA creation. Because conversion only take 3 seconds from BMP to TGA, why bother resizing if someone provides a HiRes and LowRes BMP? Only if one exists, LMM would have to resize in order to create the other TGA.
And yes, I knew BMP to TGA conversion goes quickly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif A 24b BMP is the same size as a TGA needed for MTW so there's hardly any or no conversion/compression.

I see you want to write me an email concerning some issues. Well, send it and I'll think about it and write you my views on it. On the other hand, if you post it here, everyone can think about it (including any patrons reading these posts).

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 16:56
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,09:15)]And yes, I knew BMP to TGA conversion goes quickly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif A 24b BMP is the same size as a TGA needed for MTW so there's hardly any or no conversion/compression.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Did you know this all along

Jesus P.P. - you won't believe how much I struggled with these TGA formats. Yes - almost exactly the same size as a BMP - just 12 bytes difference in the header length. I knew it was a type 2 Targa (no compression) as the body RGB's where exactly the same as a BMP. So, I found 2 tech doc's on the web which described the header format for a type 2 Targa. These doc's gave different info Neither of them matched the headers for MapTex.tga and MapTex2.txt

Shit Still they loaded ok in 'Picture It 2000' - so the headers must be ok - nothing strange here. The next question was -

"Why have CA decided to use a none-compressed TGA type 2 format (that is an antique) for an image when it's just as easy to use a standard Windows bitmap for it?"

There must be a reason Yes? No? No one nowadays follws TGA formats - most people understand BMP formats. Therefore there must be a good reason?

Well, eventually I abandoned the 2 doc's I'd downloaded - and just tried a cople of things. Worked 1st time. SIgh

My conclusion is there is absolutely no reason for CA to use such formats - other than to prevent modding in this area.

Jesus, I would'nt mind if we were 'hackers' or doing something that would compromise CA's ability to continue providing excellent products. I could understand that.

I just think it's a bit Hypocritical/two-faced for CA to post to this modders forum being all 'nicy-nicy' and so 'helpful' whilst knowing they have made things especially difficult for us. I really can't understand the mentality whereby CA may consider modders to be a 'threat'.

Remember 'Target' from CA? He was great. Gave so much helpful information, and was really interested in assisting modders in technical issues. A REAL technician But, when was the last time he posted? Hhhmm ... did someone have a 'quiet word' in his ear?


Anyway, it does'nt really matter anymore. These 'Campaign Map Modding issues' have now been virtually resolved. Back to LMM4 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Welly

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 17:27
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,15:56)]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Did you know this all along
Ehhhm, yes, sort of. Thought you knew... But I ofcourse didn't know exactly how you would have to write the conversion code for LMM. Sorry...

But about CA making things difficult, yes, I also think it might be a possibility. I always found it weird that the normal questions to CA got answered quite often but the real modding questions were hardly answered. And yes, to me it also doesn't make sense to use such a weird uncompressed TGA format. One thing to give you something to think about, what if all these "erros" in the scripts are put there on purpose? I can hardly imagine the programmers used e.g. ID_Freisland. Such an important thing as the region ID's would have to be double checked before starting to write any code. Well, maybe it's just a programmer error. Who knows?

P.P.

Wellington
01-29-2003, 18:03
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Jan. 29 2003,10:27)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 29 2003,15:56)]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Did you know this all along
Ehhhm, yes, sort of. Thought you knew... But I ofcourse didn't know exactly how you would have to write the conversion code for LMM. Sorry...

But about CA making things difficult, yes, I also think it might be a possibility. I always found it weird that the normal questions to CA got answered quite often but the real modding questions were hardly answered. And yes, to me it also doesn't make sense to use such a weird uncompressed TGA format. One thing to give you something to think about, what if all these "erros" in the scripts are put there on purpose? I can hardly imagine the programmers used e.g. ID_Freisland. Such an important thing as the region ID's would have to be double checked before starting to write any code. Well, maybe it's just a programmer error. Who knows?

P.P.
If you knew, ok I forgive you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The problem is that people like us think as technicians, not Marketing people. It seldom occurs to us there may be no 'technical' reason for something.

With errors in the Script ... YES When I suggested sending you guys an E-mail (when we had the Script problems) was for exactly the same reason. I thought I'd spotted something in testing and did'nt want to be critical of anyone or cause any 'embarressment' for "The Orgs" Administrators/Moderators. As it turned out it was my fault because the LMM tables were wrong

Whatever the truth is ... it does'nt matter. I'm quite pleased that 'our little team' have done it all ourselves. A bit of interest, a bit of committment, a bit of technical knowledge ... and a LOT of factual feedback between us. Very, very satisfying http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, lets not get TOO euphoric - we still have some way to go http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Welly

MR EGG
01-29-2003, 18:16
I emailed CA with questions about startpos files several times before christmas but had no reply maybe they're to busy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
P.P got the luk map bmp's opened them in adobe photoshop changed them to png's loaded them in to mith's image converter,loaded original MTW colour palette & saved as lbm
is this your method?

PanthaPower
01-29-2003, 18:33
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 29 2003,17:16)]P.P got the luk map bmp's opened them in adobe photoshop changed them to png's loaded them in to mith's image converter,loaded original MTW colour palette & saved as lbm
is this your method?
M.E.

yes, that's the way I make a LBM file. But I have no clue why your game crashes while just moving around on the map. Did you right click on any country, clicked something else or just scrolled around the map without even clicking anywhere? Maybe Wellington is right and there migth be an error in the BIFPallette.txt. Wellington is right that I checked if it was the same as an original pallette but I didn't go through all slots. I just did a good random check... If you have the time you could go through it.

But to answer your question if I had this too, well, no but that was before we found these border problems and even then I didn't scroll around the map. I haven't been able to test my newly generated script and graphical files yet. I had not too much time the last two days and I spend the little time I had yesterday on testing LMM with Windows'98. Unfortunately, I won't have time to test things these evening either... Only tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif So I will report to you tomorrow evening if things run fine at my pc when I just scroll the map.

P.P.

barocca
01-30-2003, 09:37
odd and prorietary file formats were used for simple reasons,

CA did not just spring into existence out of thin air,
when started CA was on a shoe string budget,
their PC's were Amiga's - ancient Amiga's,
they used software that was so old it was now freeware and the file formats the software "produced" were also royalty free,
when required "invented" their own file formats to avoid paying royalties,

this was not part of a plan to give pain to modders,
just a financial decision from the early early days...

barocca
01-30-2003, 09:44
AND you can bet your bottom dollar CA DO NOT have a utility like the one being created here

whatever else you do put a copyright on it, to prevent some bastard from "selling" the fruits of your labours
and to prevent similar bastards from selling "products" made using or based on your utility,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

my usual copyright is along the lines of
"this file/program/mod can be distributed freely as long as all components of this package are included in such distribution and no fee is charged for distribution including, but not limited to, fees for media costs involved in distributing this file/program/mod"
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

in the case of this utility i would also include

"no file or mod created using this utility may be distributed for any type of finacial reward, including, but not limited to, fees for media costs involved in such distribution"
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MR EGG
01-30-2003, 12:24
Well that was a long break couldn't access anything here all night. Anyway my campaign is no longer locking up it's working smoother than the original well the same. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I checked through the bif palette in LMM3V3 and compared with MTW's and found one little error line 48 prussia 0,0,0 has the same entry as line 255 unused so i just changed line 255 to 1,0,0 and it seems to have got everything working together properly. having 2 entries like this may push things out of line I think ,maybe, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PanthaPower
01-30-2003, 15:03
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 30 2003,11:24)]Well that was a long break couldn't access anything here all night. Anyway my campaign is no longer locking up it's working smoother than the original well the same. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I checked through the bif palette in LMM3V3 and compared with MTW's and found one little error line 48 prussia 0,0,0 has the same entry as line 255 unused so i just changed line 255 to 1,0,0 and it seems to have got everything working together properly. having 2 entries like this may push things out of line I think ,maybe, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Great to hear your problem is solved

And thanks for checking the BIFpalette. It's good to know it's the same except for this thing with slot 255.

About the last slot, I think it should work even when you leave it as 0.0.0. If I remember correctly from a post of CA, the way MTW works is scanning through the slots and when they find the right colour in relation to the lukmap it uses that one.
I already made a whole set of MTW ready files to try this evening so I will not create another set now with the renewed BifPalette. I'll post my findings later.

P.P.

MR EGG
01-30-2003, 19:22
Hello anouther thing I noticed was in the LMM colour palette 1,255,255 the colour used for the atlantic coast,which is in fact 0,255,255 in MTW.
IF this region was selected maybe this would cause a crash because MTW would not understand this as the Atlantic coast oh well just a thought cheers M.E

Wellington
01-30-2003, 19:32
************* IMPORTANT ************

All the Sea regions in the LooupTable.txt are WRONG Same problem I was copying the wrong table in names.txt ... sorry

This is (I THINK&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif the accurate table for the Sea Regions -

216 Sea ID_North_Atlantic "North Atlantic"
217 Sea ID_Irish_Sea "Irish Sea"
218 Sea ID_Norwegian_Sea "Norwegian Sea"
219 Sea ID_Skagerrak "Skagerrak"
220 Sea ID_Baltic_Sea "Baltic Sea"
221 Sea ID_North_Sea "North Sea"
222 Sea ID_English_Channel "English Channel"
223 Sea ID_Atlantic_Ocean "Atlantic Ocean"
224 Sea ID_Bay_of_Biscay "Bay of Biscay"
225 Sea ID_Costa_Verde "Costa Verde"
226 Sea ID_Spanish_Coast "Spanish Coast"
227 Sea ID_Gulf_Cadiz "Gulf of Cadiz"
228 Sea ID_Straits_Gibraltar "Straits of Gibraltar"
229 Sea ID_Western_Med "Western Mediterranean"
230 Sea ID_Gulf_Valencia "Gulf of Valencia"
231 Sea ID_Gulf_Lions "Gulf of Lions"
232 Sea ID_Ligurian_Sea "Ligurian Sea"
233 Sea ID_Tyrrhenian_Sea "Tyrrhenian Sea"
234 Sea ID_Straits_Sicily "Straits of Sicily"
235 Sea ID_Maltese_Channel "Malta Channel"
236 Sea ID_Gulf_Gabes "Gulf of Gabes"
237 Sea ID_Afrika_Coast "Africa Coast"
238 Sea ID_Barbary_Coast "Barbary Coast"
239 Sea ID_Adriatic_Ocean "Adriatic Ocean"
240 Sea ID_Ionian_Sea "Ionian Sea"
241 Sea ID_Central_Med "Central Mediterranean"
242 Sea ID_Gulf_Sidra "Gulf of Sidra"
243 Sea ID_Mirtoon_Sea "Mirtoon Sea"
244 Sea ID_Aegean_Sea "Aegean Sea"
245 Sea ID_Sea_Marmara "Sea of Marmara"
246 Sea ID_Black_Sea "Black Sea"
247 Sea ID_Sea_Crete "Sea of Crete"
248 Sea ID_Dodecanese_Sea "Dodecanese Sea"
249 Sea ID_Eastern_Med "Eastern Mediterranean"
250 Sea ID_Nile_Coast "Nile Coast"
251 Sea ID_Atlantic_Coast "Atlantic Coast"
252 Sea UNUSED
253 Sea UNUSED
254 Sea UNUSED
255 Sea UNUSED


This order should match the BIFPalette stuff (I never noticed this as it's only now I've got the point in testing where I can can build ships).

After replacing these entries please double check to ensure ALL entries seem consistent with the 1st table in names.txt

Welly

Wellington
01-30-2003, 19:33
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Jan. 30 2003,02:37)]odd and prorietary file formats were used for simple reasons,

CA did not just spring into existence out of thin air,
when started CA was on a shoe string budget,
their PC's were Amiga's - ancient Amiga's,
they used software that was so old it was now freeware and the file formats the software "produced" were also royalty free,
when required "invented" their own file formats to avoid paying royalties,

this was not part of a plan to give pain to modders,
just a financial decision from the early early days...
Aaaahh ... the penny drops.

B - if you have an accurate file spec for a type 2 TGA's header I would'nt mind a copy

Welly

Wellington
01-30-2003, 21:28
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 30 2003,05:24)]Well that was a long break couldn't access anything here all night. Anyway my campaign is no longer locking up it's working smoother than the original well the same. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I checked through the bif palette in LMM3V3 and compared with MTW's and found one little error line 48 prussia 0,0,0 has the same entry as line 255 unused so i just changed line 255 to 1,0,0 and it seems to have got everything working together properly. having 2 entries like this may push things out of line I think ,maybe, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Now I'm really puzzled.

Changing the last entry in BIFPalette should'nt have had any effect. Let me explain this ...

The BIFPalette is only used to keep the sycronisation between the LBMPalette colours and the colours in the BIFs. LMM looks at the LBMPalette for the Land/Sea region and then knows what colour to use for the Lukmaps. It looks at the corresponding entry in BIFPalette to determine what colour to use for the Land regions in the 2 BIFs (sea regions are always 0,128,0 - this colour is hardcolded in LMM).

Hence changing any colour in the BIFPalette that either isnt used (255) or is a sea region should'nt make any difference - in theory.

The BIFs MUST have a consistent colour palette .. BUT LMM does'nt use the BIFPalette to build the correct palette for the BIF's. The correct BIF colour palette is already help in the BMP files in the Defaults/Images directory. The 4 files in here (factionsmapframe/minimapframe/HRback/LRBack) are specifically done like this in order to preserve all the header/colour/transparent information that was in the original MTW BIF's. That's why the 2 green BMPs (the sea colour) are there and I don't flood fill this area in LMM - it's not the colour that's important - it;s the header stuff.

These 4 .bmps were just extracted from the BIF's via BifReader and amended a bit.

That's why I don't understand how changing slot 255 in BIFPalette could affect anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I'll have to have a second think about all this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Welly

barocca
01-30-2003, 21:47
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Jan. 30 2003,12:33)]B - if you have an accurate file spec for a type 2 TGA's header I would'nt mind a copy
That i don't have sorry,

i'm not connected to CA just a lowly modder,
(made famous by writing some intriguing campaigns,
helping with Hecose' campaign editor for Warlords and
building the STW to WE/MI Naginata conversion bif's and actions pages)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MR EGG
01-30-2003, 23:26
Don't worry about it Welly I've changed it back and run another perfect map and script which is all working fine.

If the the chesty soft dll expires tomorrow how do you get hold of another? M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-31-2003, 00:17
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 30 2003,16:26)]Don't worry about it Welly I've changed it back and run another perfect map and script which is all working fine.

If the the chesty soft dll expires tomorrow how do you get hold of another? M.E http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
M.E.

Ok. Nice to know your running ok - although you have had to find work-a-arounds for LMM3v3. I'm now experiencing the exact same problems (lock-ups/CTD's) that you guys have been having for a few days - the reason being I never had any other product to convert bmps to LBM's or TGA's - so I'm only now begginning to test some of LMM4's output ... sigh ... its a unfair world http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Next post will be regarding csImage from ChestySoft.

Welly

Wellington
01-31-2003, 01:00
************ Important ***********

LMM's dependance on ChestySofts 'csImage' product
-------------------------------------------------

Ok, a couple of people of mentioned the fact that LMM uses csImage from ChestySoft. Why does LMM do this? For several reasons -

- csImage is an excellent product for developers
- LMM could NOT have been developed so quickly without the assistant of a graphics product such as csImage
- I spent some time evaluating what was available, what the rules were for various products and how the anticipated developement of LMM could utilise such products
- csImage is NOT a GUI - it is a package of interrelated routines that allow software developers to interface to it
- ChestySoft allow any person to download multiple trial versions, month after month, and register these new trial versions on their PC's - thus allowing deveopers who are TESTING to really TEST whilst using csImage to assist them


Many people may have downloaded test versions of products and realised it either suits there needs or does not - within a few days.

With a product such as csImage IT IS NOT A GUI product. It is a product that is impossible to evaluate/test in a short period. You can only evaluate a product such as csImage if you writing software that interfaces to it - and software takes time to write and test.

Chestysoft allow multiple downloads of csImage for this 'testing' purpose as they know the time span involved in writing new software with a 'new' interface/product such as csImage. If you current trial version runs out then just download a new trial version. LMM is still BETA remember

Anyone who is currently using/testing LMM will need a new version of csImage when their trial versins expire. That is no problem for any of us - as ChestySoft allow this. This is also no problem for ME personally at present as LMM is currently BETA and we are all still testing it.

HOWEVER - you should have the FAQ I wrote regarding this. It details my thoughts on the matter.

Once LMM is released to "The Orgs" community as a full utility then its a different ballpark. Probably LMM will still rely on the functionlity offered by csImage and it that case I would expect 'us' to respect the product offered by such a company as ChestySoft and NOT abuse their goodwill.

Whilst there would be nothing to stop people downloading continuous versions of csImage from ChestySoft in order to use with LMM, personally I would see this as abuse of the goodwill and honestly that a very small company, such as ChestySoft, offers to developers.

Once LMM becomes a fully-fledged none-BETA none-test offering to this community I would NOT expect any individual to continue downloading 'trial' versions of csImage.

There are many ways to deal with this - I may send Barooca an E-mail to ask his opinion on some ideas.

Conclusion
----------

Whilst LMM is still beta/test then please download new versions of csImage every month (register the new versions as well). This IS EXACLY WHAT CSIMAGE IS ABOUT. Test it to your hearts content but once your ready with your 'utility' that uses csImage - make a decision.

Once LMM becomes a none beta/test product then we have to resolve this issue (hopefully there is a way round - I'll E-mail Barocca - extract his thoughts).

Welly

dr3mew3vr
01-31-2003, 05:08
Sea names in lookuptable
OK, I just checked the lookuptable.txt with the first section of seas in names.txt. They all seem to match fine (they use the same name as the one in quotes in lookuptable).

Use of ports in maps
I noticed that LMM gives errors for regions that don't have ports--should these be just a warning, since some coastal regions in MTW do not have ports?

Wellington
01-31-2003, 08:40
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Jan. 30 2003,22:08)]Sea names in lookuptable
OK, I just checked the lookuptable.txt with the first section of seas in names.txt. They all seem to match fine (they use the same name as the one in quotes in lookuptable).

Use of ports in maps
I noticed that LMM gives errors for regions that don't have ports--should these be just a warning, since some coastal regions in MTW do not have ports?
Yes, the missing Port should be a warning. After LMM's released I'll have a second look at all these Error/Warning messages simply because I have'nt checked every single one I'll write a map that tries to produce every error and then a good look at the output.

MR EGG
01-31-2003, 19:08
Hello another thing I noticed was in the LMM LBM colour palette 1,255,255 the colour used for the atlantic coast,which is in fact 0,255,255 in MTW.
IF this region was selected maybe this would cause a crash because MTW would not understand this as the Atlantic coast I have not tested this yet so give me a shout if you think worth it,you have probably accounted for this already, oh well just a thought cheers M.E

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington
01-31-2003, 20:14
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 31 2003,12:08)]Hello another thing I noticed was in the LMM LBM colour palette 1,255,255 the colour used for the atlantic coast,which is in fact 0,255,255 in MTW.
IF this region was selected maybe this would cause a crash because MTW would not understand this as the Atlantic coast I have not tested this yet so give me a shout if you think worth it,you have probably accounted for this already, oh well just a thought cheers M.E

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Well spotted I forgot the 1st one is actually used. I think those 4 numbers at the end of the table should be -

0,255,255
1,255,255
2,255,255
3,255,255

or something similar.

I'm still testing with small maps so I hav'nt got round to checking all Land/Sea regions yet.

LMM4's looking good. All bifs, tgas and lbms work fine for a variety of maps. No problems with the Script. Hav'nt had a lock-up or CTD for 2 days. I'm putting in the Install/Backout facility into LMM4 to make things a bit easier. Soon be ready.

MR EGG
02-01-2003, 00:15
Good stuff Welly looking foward to testing it. I'll test the atlantic coast to see if it ctd's or not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Fairlight
02-04-2003, 18:30
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 31 2003,17:15)]Good stuff Welly looking foward to testing it.
Sorry to be a pain, but is there any news?

Wellington
02-04-2003, 18:54
Quote[/b] (Fairlight @ Feb. 04 2003,11:30)]
Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Jan. 31 2003,17:15)]Good stuff Welly looking foward to testing it.
Sorry to be a pain, but is there any news?
LMM4 - quick update.

The next release of LMM (LMM4v1) will be ready in around 2/3 days. The reason LMM4 has been a slow coming is that for the previous releases we were rushing to get something working ASAP - so the code structure suffered in order to get something out. Once we got to that point (for maximum size maps) in LMM3v3 the Guys who've been assisting in all the testing/ideas/feedback could actually test a working version.

So, for LMM4v1 I had the time to correct all the bit's and pieces that were rushed and restructure the code in preperation for future releases. Aside from the total restructure LMM4v1 will include -

- the ability to Include/Exclude certain regions (see the stickied "Script" thread re the Swiss and ID_SWITZERLAND)
- perform resizing (correctly) of all maps in relation to the users mapsize and the actual MTW size
- allow tiling for cases whereby the users map is smaller than the MTW size
- allow the users to ptovide 2 "_Original" files for creation of the 2 MapTex TGA's (1 lores and 1 hires)
- solve the problems with LMM creating big maps (36meg) and W98se users having insufficient memory
- produce correct BIF's/LBM's/TGA's (not just BMP versions)
- include an Install/Backout
- include the correct version of BifReader in the download

... and several other corrections/enhancements

Basically, LMM4v1 is intended to be the release that both tidies everythinbg up and does everything for the user.

The idea is that the user runs LMM4v1 on his map, uses LMM4v1 to install the results to his/her MTW moddable installation, starts MTW and all works 1st time (well, that's the idea but there will undoubatdly be more versions of LMM4 inorder to correct 1 or 2 problems I've overlooked)

(BTW: the documentaion for LMM4v1 may be a bit 'sketchy' - sorry but all this takes times. I'll probably release LMM4v1 and then add to the documnetation in the following week)

Welly

MR EGG
02-04-2003, 21:19
Exellent welly I think you have made a lot of people very happy thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PanthaPower
02-05-2003, 10:43
Great work Wellington.

Although I haven't been able to test or play anything the past few days I still check out this thread once a day. Things will ease down for me beginning of next week so expect me to be back to do further testing at that time.

Panthapower

Wellington
02-09-2003, 14:33
LMM4v1 will be released sometime tomorrow. Still not 100% perfect (what is?) but all major issues are now resolved.

Only thing I'm now struggling with is the IncludeRegion=/ExcludeRegion= (which is a bit tricky due to the many order-entry tables in LMM) but I'll try to sort it out for tomorrow.

LMM4 will require a fresh install as it's significantly different to previous versions.

Welly

dr3mew3vr
02-10-2003, 06:44
Keep up the great work Wellington http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Wellington
02-11-2003, 19:40
Well, I've released LMM4v1 together with a new example but it appears "The Org's" test download area does'nt want to know

I've tried as couple of times now but I have absolutely no idea whether or not theupload has been successful (appears to be - but I can't find the uploaded files anywhere).

If anyone can find 2 files -

- TEST_LMM4v1_BETA_VERSIN.zip (460K)
- TEST_LMM4_GMM_EXAMPLE_HOLYLAND.zip (110K)

then please let me know how I can find them in The Orgs downloads.

If no-one can find them but still wants the new release then E-mail me and I'll send in a return E-mail.

Welly

barocca
02-11-2003, 21:37
the files are here,
link to download page (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload)

when you upload a file you need to hit refresh on these pages to "update" your view of the directory

Wellington
02-12-2003, 04:42
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Feb. 11 2003,14:37)]the files are here,
link to download page (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload)

when you upload a file you need to hit refresh on these pages to "update" your view of the directory
B,

Ok, I see what's happening now. This stuff has gone to the directory (although I refreshed the directoroes I did'nt refresh my main panel - which explains some of the errors I was getting&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

So LMM4 is now in -

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWbeta/
http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....MTWbeta (http://www.3ddownloads.com/strategy-gaming/totalwar/Z_Beta_Files/MTWbeta/)

... when it should be in -

http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mtw_Uploads/MTWupload/
http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....Wupload (http://www.3ddownloads.com/strategy-gaming/totalwar/Z_Beta_Files/MTWupload/)


Can you move this either move this LMM4 stuff, or delete it (and I'll upload again).

Cheers,

Welly

Wellington
02-12-2003, 05:14
************************************
*** IMPORTANT ***
************************************


LMM4v1 is now released and is in "The Org's" Upload area.

download the main stuff -

- TEST_LMM4v1_BETA_VERSION.zip

into a seperate directory (NOT LMM3s directory) or whatever and then download the example -

- TEST_LMM4_GMM_EXAMPLE_HOLYLAND.zip

Read the readme.txt in the example and give it a try.

I should say I'm extremely pleased with this release as it solves all major outstanding problems (on my XP PC that is).

Unfortunately the documentation with this release is crappy (time problems) but I'll be uploading a new "Documentation" folder for LMM in a few days - when I finish writing it all.


For now just a few points that are imporatant -


1) you must change the "_original" name of any maps to "_Lores".
LMM4 accepts 3 maps -

- Britain.bmp (with all the features drawn on)
- Britain_Lores.bmp (Optional - what used to be called Britain_Original.bmp)
- Britain_Hires.bmp (Optional - a hires version for creating the Maptex2.tga)

2) Optional file "BorderTile.bmp" (see the example above for details)

3) Many parameters are now redundent/removed so if you get any Errors
message just delete the parameter in parameters.txt

4) some of the new paramters -

SETIncomeRange(100,500) just for the Script

SETMakeUnit=(ship,princess,emissary) just for the Script to generate other 'types' of units

IncludeRegion=ID_SWITZERLAND to include a region

or -

IncludeRegion(ID_SWITZERLAND,x,y) to include a region and 'force' it into a specific location on the map (x/y is the coords for the Castle for that region - only for land regions - not sea)

ExcludeRegion=ID_WALES opposite of the above

(Note: if you use these 2 the "Ref_Colours,bmp" gives a good idea of what's occured. Unfortunately theres still a minor bug with this as Include/Exclude seems to confuse MTW - but it still works ok)


ThickenSeaBorders=YES/NO obvious - just for the Lukmap generation

WriteHiResMaps=YES/NO if NO LMM does NOT write the LukMap2/MapTex2

BuildRealLBMs=YES/NO if NO LMM does NOT write the LukMap/LukMap2 (just the bmps)

BuildRealTGAs=YES/NO if NO LMM does NOT write the MapTex/MapTex2 (just the bmps)


5) 'Install'/'Backout' is IMPORTANT - I'll have the document for this finished ASAP

6) 'Build Group Map' - same as 5) but the example should help you understand it.


(Note: this option can also be used for campaigns based on the original MTW map - ie: a smaller version of the MTW map - but it's not working yet. Next release)

7) LMM4v1 requires version 3.0 of ChestySofts csImageFile.

8) DON'T try a "Test Map"/"Map/Script"/"Script" run immediately after another in the same invocation of LMM4v1 (not yet working properly). Always exit LMM4 and enter again for this.


Expect a new release (LMM4v2) in a week or so that corrects some bugs that will be inherent in LMM4v1 and provides proper documentation.


(Barocca - re the csImageFIle stuff from ChestySoft I'll E-mail you - I'll try to write up an apprpiate letter)


Any problems answer to this thread,

Welly

PanthaPower
02-12-2003, 11:20
Wellington,

here's some quick feedback so far for LMM4.

* I would recommend putting an extra zero in the documentation file structure for creating a more orderly sorted structure. (Chapter 1 would become Chapter 01)

* In the documentation of Chapter 2 in section C, you refer to the Islands directory but it's not part of the default LMM4 files that I downloaded.

* The Default directory doesn't contain a RegionNames.txt.

* The LMM4 files are full of statements that this is LMM2.

* The default parameters.txt contains the lines:
SameRegion=(255,255,0) // Colour used to identify 2 seperated regions as the same
SameRegion=(0,255,0) // (Any RGB combination)
My thoughts are that these need to be removed from the default files.

* The default parameters.txt doesn't contain the options BuildRealLBM and BuildRealTGA. I haven't tried it without them yet but shouldn't this be part of the default?

* Starting LMM4 for the first time will now also popup to provide a moddable directory. This means that in order for LMM4 to run, I need 2 MTW directories
I usually run LMM at my laptop during working hours so that I can test the newly created files in the evening on my MTW machine at home. I have free space for one MTW directory but not two just for running LMM.
I worked around this problem by deleting big directories which LMM doesn't scan for (yet). Could you build in another option for LMM5 for people who run LMM on machines without the need for two full copies of MTW (1,5GB in total)? Maybe supplying the needed MTW files in a seperate directory as I proposed before you wrote LMM2?

* The default Factions.txt contains "-//" in the first line of the file. This of course gives a harmless error in the errorlog.txt

This is it for now. I'll report more issues when I bump into them.

P.P.

Wellington
02-12-2003, 15:16
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Feb. 12 2003,04:20)]
PP,


Quote[/b] ]* I would recommend putting an extra zero in the documentation file structure for creating a more orderly sorted structure. (Chapter 1 would become Chapter 01)

* In the documentation of Chapter 2 in section C, you refer to the Islands directory but it's not part of the default LMM4 files that I downloaded.


Yeah, my next job is to make a proper job of the documentation.



Quote[/b] ]* The Default directory doesn't contain a RegionNames.txt.

Whoops, corrected.


Quote[/b] ]* The LMM4 files are full of statements that this is LMM2.

'files'? None of my files (Documentation, text files or source code) have references LMM2. ?


Quote[/b] ]* The default parameters.txt contains the lines:
SameRegion=(255,255,0) // Colour used to identify 2 seperated regions as the same
SameRegion=(0,255,0) // (Any RGB combination)
My thoughts are that these need to be removed from the default files.


This is rubbish. Just delete these lines.


Quote[/b] ]* The default parameters.txt doesn't contain the options BuildRealLBM and BuildRealTGA. I haven't tried it without them yet but shouldn't this be part of the default?


Does'nt matter. The defaults in the program are both YES for these. Most of the parameters in Parameters.txt also have hard coded defaults in LMM. Whatever paramters you cod ein paramters.txt only changes the defaults for these parameters in LMM.

Here are the program defaults - Colour_One = "FFFFFF" ' (ie: RGB ="255,255,255") - White
Colour_Two = "000000" ' (ie: RGB ="0,0,0") - Black
Colour_Palette000 = "FF00FF" ' (ie: RGB ="255,0,255")
Colour_OriginPort = "00FFFF" ' (ie: RGB ="0,255,255")
OnErrorQuit = False
WaterOnLand = False
FastPath = False
Image_Package = "csImageFileTrial.Manage"
NPixels = 1
IDsBorder = 25
IDsTextHeight = 11
XYMod = 16
MinLandIncome = 100
MaxLandIncome = 500
SETMakeUnit = "ship,princess,emissary"
SETArch = "LUSH" ' SetBorderInfo:: Default Architecture
SETLand = "AT_WESTERN_EUROPEAN" ' SetBorderInfo:: Default Land (type)
SETVista = "FLAT" ' SetBorderInfo:: Default Vista
SETRiver = "NO_RIVER" ' SetBorderInfo:: Default River
WriteCPO = True
WriteOrigins = True
WriteLandSea = True
WriteAdjacent = True
WriteFeatures = True
WriteColours = True
WriteIdentifiers = True
WriteNames = True
WriteOwner = True
WriteHiResMaps = True
BuildRealLBMs = True
BuildRealTGAs = True
ThickenSeaBorders = True


Quote[/b] ]* Starting LMM4 for the first time will now also popup to provide a moddable directory. This means that in order for LMM4 to run, I need 2 MTW directories
I usually run LMM at my laptop during working hours so that I can test the newly created files in the evening on my MTW machine at home. I have free space for one MTW directory but not two just for running LMM.
I worked around this problem by deleting big directories which LMM doesn't scan for (yet). Could you build in another option for LMM5 for people who run LMM on machines without the need for two full copies of MTW (1,5GB in total)? Maybe supplying the needed MTW files in a seperate directory as I proposed before you wrote LMM2?


Problem is LMM needs unchanged copies of some MTW files. It needs the 4 Bifs and any file specified as "MandatoryMTW=" or "OptionalMTW=" (if found) on 'InstallBackout.txt'. However, you don't really need a full MTW install for this.

You can get round this problem by just creating a pseudo MTW directory in order to fool LMM. Just create a new folder such as - "c:\PseudoMTW" and create the necessary file structiure LMM requires (as specified in the InstallBackout.txt for the 8 MTW files) -

c:\PseudoMTW\campmap\minilukup.bif
c:\PseudoMTW\campmap\minimap.bif
c:\PseudoMTW\frontend_files\FactionSelect_menu\factions map.bif
c:\PseudoMTW\frontend_files\FactionSelect_menu\factions map lukup.bif
c:\PseudoMTW\Textures\campmap\LukMap.lbm
c:\PseudoMTW\Textures\campmap\LukMap2.lbm
c:\PseudoMTW\Textures\campmap\MapTex.tga
c:\PseudoMTW\Textures\campmap\MapTex2.tga


If you add files later on in your 'InstallBackout.txt' you would also have to add these files to this pseudo directory. For example -

c:\PseudoMTW\Loc\Eng\Names.txt
c:\PseudoMTW\Loc\Eng\Changes.txt



Quote[/b] ]
* The default Factions.txt contains "-//" in the first line of the file. This of course gives a harmless error in the errorlog.txt


Solved.


The new documentaion will arraive ASAP

Welly.

PanthaPower
02-12-2003, 17:00
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 12 2003,14:16)]
Quote[/b] ]* The LMM4 files are full of statements that this is LMM2.

'files'? None of my files (Documentation, text files or source code) have references LMM2. ?
Well, I haven't checked all files but I noticed that at least in the reame.txt and chanegs.txt it states "PROVISIONAL VERSION 2".
It's of course nothing important but just wanted to let you know.

P.P.

Wellington
02-12-2003, 17:12
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Feb. 12 2003,10:00)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 12 2003,14:16)]
Quote[/b] ]* The LMM4 files are full of statements that this is LMM2.

'files'? None of my files (Documentation, text files or source code) have references LMM2. ?
Well, I haven't checked all files but I noticed that at least in the reame.txt and chanegs.txt it states "PROVISIONAL VERSION 2".
It's of course nothing important but just wanted to let you know.

P.P.
PP,

Ignore me - I'm lying to you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I was scanning for literally "LMM2" - not "version 2". I'll correct all this whilst I'm doing the proper documentation.

There is another potential problem with LMM4. On some users maps the Lukmap.lbm may not align correctly with the MapTex.tga (it may 10 pixels out). I'll sort this out properly for the next release.

Have you tried the "HolyLand" example yet? If so, did it work ok?

Welly

PanthaPower
02-12-2003, 18:01
Wellington,

No, haven't had time to run Holyland yet. I'll try it tomorrow. But I have one other weird thing about LMM4. The LukMap.lbm's it creates are huge I mean, take the default MTW 4096*3072 LukMap2.lbm. It uses only 701 KB. Now look at a LukMap2.lbm created by LMM4 on the same resolution. It takes 12.385 KB Making my own LBM files from the BMP's generated by LMM3 would result in a 499 KB file. That's more than 24 times smaller

I haven't checked if the LMM4 generated files worked yet in MTW but I wonder if you know about it.

Wellington
02-12-2003, 18:53
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Feb. 12 2003,11:01)]Wellington,

No, haven't had time to run Holyland yet. I'll try it tomorrow. But I have one other weird thing about LMM4. The LukMap.lbm's it creates are huge I mean, take the default MTW 4096*3072 LukMap2.lbm. It uses only 701 KB. Now look at a LukMap2.lbm created by LMM4 on the same resolution. It takes 12.385 KB Making my own LBM files from the BMP's generated by LMM3 would result in a 499 KB file. That's more than 24 times smaller

I haven't checked if the LMM4 generated files worked yet in MTW but I wonder if you know about it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Yes I know

The reason is I originally coded the correct algorithm (byterun1 encoding) for this but in order to do this algorithm 'correctly' required the same old "5 million calls to csImageFile" to get the colours and another 20 million loops in VB Script for the large sized maps.

Therefore it ground to a halt and required 15 minutes to create the 250K and 700K LukMaps (that would be an extra 30 minutes on an 800mhtz PC - just to create 2 lukmaps&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Therefore I used a 'trick' to create them and the result is 2/3 seconds per map (that's the reason for some of the new binary files int he Defaults folder)

Obviously the problem was magnified as LMM is currently written in VB Script. Its the same old IT problem of speed verses storage.

I will be changing this when I have a none-BETA VB Script version at which point a I'll create the VB6 executable.

But, at present, PP the question is - "Do you want to wait an extra 30 min's for the 700K lukmaps, or are you happy with 3 seconds but a 12meg lukmap?"

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly

Wellington
02-12-2003, 19:00
P.P.

By the way, I'm busy trying to incorporate a fastpath option in LMM (it's actually an option now in LMM4v1 - "FastPath=YES" - but it's not working correctly yet). I hope to have this working for the next version LMM4v2.

I've tested this and it halfs the time for "Map/Script" type runs (from 1 hour for a full sized map to 30 min's)

Unfortunately it wont be suitable for everyone as this option will use a lot more memory (approx another 40meg).

The idea is to keep an image of the main LukMap (around which all processing revolves in LMM) in an array and thus reduce the number of calls to csImageFile. It's almost working but for me to test it on large maps takes so long. Next version maybe.

Welly

Lord Krazy
02-12-2003, 19:15
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 12 2003,12:00)]By the way, I'm busy
What's new http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

no rest for the wicked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Wellington
02-12-2003, 21:39
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Feb. 12 2003,04:20)]Could you build in another option for LMM5 for people who run LMM on machines without the need for two full copies of MTW (1,5GB in total)? Maybe supplying the needed MTW files in a seperate directory as I proposed before you wrote LMM2?
PP,

Yes and no. It's no problem to amend LMM to check, perhaps, just 1 directory into which the user has previously copied all relevent files that LMM requires.

The problem is that the new "Group Map Making" facility in LMM is intended to be 3 things -

1) a means for passing LMM parameters to each other (via E-mail) for people designing a mod as a group but without, in most cases, requiring large map downloads - 9meg and 36meg

2) a means for such a group to also add none-LMM stuff required for the mod (castle flags, new units, shield, iconms - whatever) to the LMM structure and by defining such additional files in "InstallBackout.txt" having the ability to both Install and Backout a COMPLETE mod.

3) a means for the recipient of such a mod to build the required files and Install/Backout as required. In other words LMM will not just be for people building mods but ALSO for the recipients to both minimise downloads and ensure such mods are Installable.Backoutable in a simple manner.

The problem is that in order to effectively Backout a COMPLETE (containing other stuff) such additional files would have to be copied from an unmodded MTW.

Welly

barocca
02-12-2003, 22:21
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 12 2003,11:53)]But, at present, PP the question is - "Do you want to wait an extra 30 min's for the 700K lukmaps, or are you happy with 3 seconds but a 12meg lukmap?"
Make this an OTPION,
the smaller maps are easier to share over the net

reducing the size of peeps campaign mods,
very important in my humble opinion

Wellington
02-12-2003, 22:53
Quote[/b] (barocca @ Feb. 12 2003,15:21)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 12 2003,11:53)]But, at present, PP the question is - "Do you want to wait an extra 30 min's for the 700K lukmaps, or are you happy with 3 seconds but a 12meg lukmap?"
Make this an OTPION,
the smaller maps are easier to share over the net

reducing the size of peeps campaign mods,
very important in my humble opinion
Barocca,

Not necessary at present. The VB6 version will resolve this. It's only an issue for the VB Script version.

I'm not expecting recipients of mods to have to download large files (LukMap's or Maptex's). The idea of LMM is for BOTH mod makers AND recipients of such mods to use LMM to build a campaign - thus circumventing (as much as possible) large downloads

Read the post above regarding "Group Map Making"

Welly

Wellington
02-13-2003, 00:58
Barocca,

One thing I forgot with LMM4. Could you please ask RSW to send me a brief E-mail authorising me to include BifReader in the LMM download.

Whilst I have your permission I do not have the permission of the author of BifReader. You'll appreciate the importance of this.

Thanks,
Welly

Wellington
02-17-2003, 16:11
Well Guys,

Er ... where are you?

Never mind. Since the release of LMM4v1 I've received virtually no testing feedback so I expect everyones busy with their own campaigns now (which is NOT criticism - just an observation - and only natural&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

However, considering what LMM tries to do it's impossible for me to test everything by myself - therefore I think it's time (considering all the progress made by this little team) to release the next version as none-BETA.

The implications of releasing LMM as a none-BETA version are -

a) I will be supporting all potential problems on most op/sys for the foreseeable future.
b) I shall be developing LMM further in order to cover other (not obvious) aspects of creating new MTW campaigns.
c) I shall be answering all LMM related questions on this thread.
d) I will start work on the Script editing utility.

In other words I think it's time to "open up" this thread to new faces and questions pertaining to this utility.

The next version of LMM (LMM4v2) will be released within a week or two and will provide (hopefully) sufficient documentation and all previous examples (re-done for LMM4) in order to get any interested parties parties 'up and running' ASAP.

Personally speaking I have no idea how many people have downloaded previous versions of LMM and/or how many have hit difficulties with using LMM or understanding some aspects of it.

Therefore, for such people, NOW is the time to speak (via this thread) whilst I re-write the documentation for LMM4v2.

LMM is far from finished but IT CANNOT BE FINISHED BY JUST ONE PERSON (I can't do it alone&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. I really need feedback on this, so, now is the opportunity. If your interested in this little project and want to see progress then please contribute questions/ideas/observations/bugs/confusion or whatever.

Basically, what I'm saying is that for the last 6/7 weeks it's been useful to develope LMM together with a few people who understand the implications, and if you've been following this thread you'll know how much progress has been made via this approach;.

Now, however, I think it's time to open LMM up to a wider group of patrons (who may not be so familier with this area of modding) if we are to progrss LMM further, who whilst asking a lot more questions will undoubtadly assist in the final developement of a utility that will open up MTW for new campaigns.

I should'nt need to say that if I get no feedback/assistance this project will die a short death and remain in it's current state of development - which I would hate to see

Help me out here

regards,
Welly

Warriorofmight
02-18-2003, 14:28
your lord of the ring map is ready but we got some probs after some turns the game chraches when there is a rebellion or somethinzg like this or while a pc turn does any bodfy know how to stop this?? all borders are correct

PanthaPower
02-18-2003, 16:32
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 17 2003,15:11)]Er ... where are you?
Wellington,

I know I've been absent in this thread for a while but things are really too busy for me currently. Having a full time job, a girl friend, courses to attend to, travelling and setting up a new business just sucks up all my available time. Haven't even played a game for even a minute the past 2,5 weeks. I don't see things changing soon again so I'm afraid I won't have time to really test things anymore. I will keep an eye on this thread though at work but don't expect too much feedback/input from me. I do hope that others who wrote feedback and/or followed this thread would be able help bringing LMM to the next level.

P.P.

Wellington
02-18-2003, 16:39
Quote[/b] (PanthaPower @ Feb. 18 2003,09:32)]
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Feb. 17 2003,15:11)]Er ... where are you?
Wellington,

I know I've been absent in this thread for a while but things are really too busy for me currently. Having a full time job, a girl friend, courses to attend to, travelling and setting up a new business just sucks up all my available time. Haven't even played a game for even a minute the past 2,5 weeks. I don't see things changing soon again so I'm afraid I won't have time to really test things anymore. I will keep an eye on this thread though at work but don't expect too much feedback/input from me. I do hope that others who wrote feedback and/or followed this thread would be able help bringing LMM to the next level.

P.P.
no probs,

It's about time I released this as none-BETA anyway. That's bound to get some feedback

Is Warrior of Might taling about your LOTR map in the post above? If so can you zip and E-mail me your "Ref_Features.bmp" and I'll take a look at it.

Welly

PanthaPower
02-18-2003, 16:50
Wellington,

WarriorofMight is not using the LOTR map that I was talking about. He is building a LOTR campaign too together with other modders.

Good luck with the non-beta LMM. I'm curious to see the results of people using LMM.

P.P.

Wellington
02-18-2003, 17:18
Quote[/b] (Warriorofmight @ Feb. 18 2003,07:28)]your lord of the ring map is ready but we got some probs after some turns the game chraches when there is a rebellion or somethinzg like this or while a pc turn does any bodfy know how to stop this?? all borders are correct
WoM,

Did you use LMM to build this map? If so can you E-mail me the "Ref_Features.txt" that was created.

Welly.

Warriorofmight
02-18-2003, 17:27
no we didn't but what files do i need to use this programm i've got it but the maps was ready at the release

dr3mew3vr
02-18-2003, 21:07
Great work again Wellington. Like Pantha, I haven't even touched MTW for the past few weeks. However, I'll try to get some testing done this weekend and let u know the results.

Wellington
02-18-2003, 21:22
Quote[/b] (Warriorofmight @ Feb. 18 2003,10:27)]no we didn't but what files do i need to use this programm i've got it but the maps was ready at the release
I don't understand you here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

If you are thinking of creating your maps via LMM I suggest wait a week unitl I get all the documentation finished at which point I'll be be releasing LMM4v2 as a non-BETA.

If your asking what could have gone wrong with your 'hand made' LoTR map then ... er ... almost anything.

From what little you've said the most obvious problems would be -

1) the Script file your using is incorrect in some manner or other
2) the new BIF files you've (presumably) created for the TGA (Minimap and Minilukup) are incorrect (wrong colours?)
3) you've used an invalid colouir in the Lukmap(s)

Really it could be anything (which is why this LMM project was started). If you still can't find it try reading through some of the problems encoutered in this thread, and how we solved them. There's a wealth on information here.

Also have a read of the "Script thread" that's also stickied. Might help.

Welly

Wellington
02-18-2003, 21:41
Quote[/b] (dr3mew3vr @ Feb. 18 2003,14:07)]Great work again Wellington. Like Pantha, I haven't even touched MTW for the past few weeks. However, I'll try to get some testing done this weekend and let u know the results.
Dreamweaver,

Don't worry too much about testing. You guys have already made a tremendous contribution.

When the next version is released I'll probably get some feed back then. Also a quiet spell, such as now, gives me time to sort out all the required documentation.

Welly

Warriorofmight
02-19-2003, 19:09
after some turns i got the message can't find a portrai or something like this. all collors are correct. but i`ve got a question could i send you our starpos file the luk map and the events file and you could have a look on it and try to find the problem??