Poland

[Cheetah]

early

[Cheetah]

high

[Cheetah]

late

[Cheetah]

Author: Heynow
Topic: Polish woes...



Heynow
New Patron

Posts: 2
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 08-29-2002 11:50 PM

Ok this is my first post, I've been playing the hell out of this game and here are my thoughts.
My first harddcore game (the first few aborted attempts were just learning) I chose the Poles, expert setting. They looked to have the hardest start and I wanted a challenge. I grabbed the Baltic sea states asap so I could set up my navy. The AI doesn't seem very aggressive, and it is woeful about exploiting the seas. Why does it build so many ports and not build ships?

Anyway, I decided to lay low and build like crazy. You can play a LONG time doing nothing but grabbing neutrals and building your economy. Finally I thought I had a big enough lead tech-wise to start fighting the real armies. I went to war with the Danes.

Despite having a two generation lead in technology, I was SPANKED for one reason. POLISH LEADERS ARE HORRIBLE. Not once did I get a 4 star general in all those hours of gameplay. And my navy was worse. Out of over a dozen ships maybe 2 had a single star admiral, the rest were completely incompetent. It didn't really matter though, because about the time I had finally gotten my 4 star general (through battle), my empire disintegrated into civil war. Split into 2 pieces. I saved and quit and haven't decided if I'll play it through.

It may sound like I'm griping, but I'm not. It actually seems realistic that Poland has so many dunderheaded leaders, I mean they've never been a great power. The only problem I have is with the AI's treatment of the seas. It's way too easy to set up a huge chain of ships all over the world and never have to worry about anyone messing with it.

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Lord Aeon
Patron

Posts: 216
From:Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: May 2001
posted 08-29-2002 11:56 PM

Uh huh. That's the price you pay when you're unwilling to get into the thick of things. Your generals will never improve fighting 200 non-faction peasants with a 600 man army. As a result, your generals weren't up to snuff when it was ime ot engage in some serious combat wih a rival faction.
Also, with respect to your navy, it looks as though, because you didn't spend time improving your military through hard-fought battles (whch is quite expensive), you had plenty of money to cultivate your navy. Sure, you dominated the seas, but only because you weren't really spending money on anything else.

But that's juts my opinion; i could be wrong.

------------------
You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple.

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dancho
Patron

Posts: 43
From:
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 08-29-2002 11:57 PM

Yeah, I got pretty frustrated playing Poland. Kraellin seems to have the right idea (see his posts in the 'Preliminaries' thread). He went north to fight the Rus. Seemed to work for him.
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malkuth
New Patron

Posts: 17
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 08-30-2002 12:35 AM

I think you picked the wrong faction to pick on first. The Danes have some great generals throught the game.
Sounds like you lost though. Tough luck. But you wanted a challenge and you got it. You should be happy that a faction AI actually gave you a good fight.

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Papewaio
MTW forum moderator

Posts: 1764
From:Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 08-30-2002 12:52 AM

Cool
You wanted a challenge and you got it I would say save the game. Play a few other campaigns and come back to this one in a month and see if you can win it from this setback.

Nothing like a challenge to bring out a grin.

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Boleslaw Wrymouth
Patron

Posts: 33
From:NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 08-30-2002 05:42 AM


It may sound like I'm griping, but I'm not. It actually seems realistic that Poland has so many dunderheaded leaders, I mean they've never been a great power.

Acually about a hundred years after the game ends they WERE a graet power. But that doesn't help you too much.

I had the same problem with Poland and have two comments and a question. First, go east young man and don't stop until its all red. This is what I did and and its easier then getting involved in the west early on. Its also nice to own some well developed provinces in the east when the Horde shows up. Also, once you have enough troops to quell disorder (you don't need a lot) bribe Pomerania and Prussia. Save your money for this if you have to, it can really help at the start.

Second, although its tempting to command the troops yourself when faced with an easy battle in order to minimize losses your better off letting the computer handle it. Your generals almost always get a star. (A bug?)

Finally, what is your tax rate like. Someone else on the board was having the same problem that you and I did and it was suggested that he lower the tax rate. I had most of my provinces on high and very high so I tried it and put most of them back to normal. Its about thirty years later and I'm getting much better generals. This may be a coincidence but try it if you can afford it.

It may be coded that Poland gets poor generals early then starts to get better ones later on. Its the mid 1200's and I have gotten many 4 and 5 star commanders and royalty recently. If thats the case, hang in there.

I know nothing about navies. I only use ships for trade and transport and by the time I put my first ship to sea, Denmark and England were history, and my very good friend the HRE took care of the military ships for me. They're gone now so I guess I'm about to find out about crappy admirals.

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[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ April 06 2004,18:49)]early
MTW/ VI, GA-goals:
The key IMHO to a good Polish campaigns relies on access to the sea and more territories. I usually follow this master plan:
Only military build-up in Poland on early.
Money upgrades in Silesia and all new territories.
Peace with all naighbouring factions.
First conquer the Baltic states an then advance east.

1087 AD: In Poland I que WT/ Bow/ H.breed and TP. In Silesia and for all new provs I tend to go with this order in building; WT/ Fort/ TP/ +20%/ (mines)/ (port)/ BF/ +40%/ (mine complex) and now first I either goal a warf or military buildings.
1091 AD: Que peasants (or similar) for gov´s in Silesia. Don´t be satisfied until you have replaced all gov´s below 5 acc.

Go for Pomerania early since their guarding force isn´t that strong so you can usually take it with your original army. Prussia will usually req some add troops, espeially archers.
From here I either go for Lithuania and Livonia and then head south or go directly south and take Volhynia, Moldavia, Kiev before I head north against Lithuania and Livonia. The last is usually better since it will cut off the Hungarians from the Russian steppes and force them to deal with the Byz. And later I will like to hold that bridge in Kiev when the Mongols arrive ;) My initial conquering is usually finished before 1105AD. So now you have something to forge a kingdom out of.

Around 1100-1104AD you should be able to construct my 2nd armystack which I tend to let my heir command from Poland to guard my western and south front against HRE and Hungarian alliance breakers. By around 1120AD your first ships in the Baltic should be hitting the water and a couple of years later your warf in Kiev will produce that vital Black Sea fleet that will reach the rich Med.coast fater than if you only build ships in the Baltics. Ofcourse you can even get ships in 1102 AD if you go directly for fort, keep, warf. Although with my delay I will actually have a sound economical infrastructure early instead which will finance the fleet which will finance a 5 stack army just two decades later.
Where you go from here is really up to you. Good luck

[HopelessCelt]

To add to Ramesses post i usually only go to the line of 3 provs to the right of poland, and leave it there. This amkes it easy to guard from the horde or anyone else who decides to attack from the east, you can one army there to save money. You do need The two p's north of poland for water. Now you should have a water prov in the north section of sea and the south. Then from their pick who you want to fight. I usually go south through hungry and take const. and leave that as a border. Then i take scand. and then progress west. have fun

[ah_dut]

top tip take Kiev and Moldavia. this allows for a defendable bridge and steppe cav in Kiev and Avar nobles in Moldavia http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif I feel so enlightened

[katank]

I like to go for moldavia right away to get avar nobles and cut off Huns from expansion into the steppes and the rare byz attempt at land invasion of steppes.

as for the steppes, race the Byz to Khazar and grab Kiev on the way as well as trying to secure Crimea.

Livonia, Lithuania, and Chernigov are the onyl steppe provinces really worth it to me and the Novgorod can bash their heads on the rebels in worthless little provinces if they want.

as the polish, be sure to take advantage of special builds of armored spearmen, and mtd-xbows

the slav warrior units are also ideal for garrison and slav javs good king killers.

if you want to take on Byz, have a few mtd x-bows run them ragged and then hit them with multiple javs while pinning with armored spears.

the mighty katank princes all fall easily under a hail of bolts.

[katank]

new tactic: ransom Hungary.

Attack hungary with everything in Poland first turn.

Pull all units from Silesia to Poland and queue some slav warriors in Poland

the battle in Hungary will be tough dealing with all the HAs.

just use a huge encirclement maneuver and you'll be fine.

have the spear wall hold and run the RK and your own HAs well clear of the enemy HAs until you are at their back and order a charge towards your own lines and the HAs will skirmish away from you cav right into your spear wall.

close your forces around those HAs like a iron fist and you'll have collected your victory.

move every unit from Poland into Hungary and assault the fort on the second turn with king's forces.

after it falls, move in the slav warrior unit just built into hungary and attack Croatia with everything you got except for enough to maintain loyalty in Hungary

this shoudl net you a 11k ransom and make the rest smooth sailng.

your first heir should have matured in hungary so send him to finish off the Hungarian King in Croatia and later take Moldavia and Wallachia while your king goes for Venice on a delayed version of the Hungarian or German Venice grab.

then ceasefire and ally with the Italians using your princess.

note: Venice grab only works when their Doge is there and you have superior forces.

by this time, you have gotten aroudn the biggest problem for Poles: the cash and also gianed two iron provinces, a bunch of nice farmladn etc.

you can beat the Byz to the Balkans and both the Byz and Russians to the steppes.

I personally like to chime in when the Turks war on the Byz and grab Bulgaria which gives semi-unique brigand unit, Greece for trade, and Const. for wealth and development.

never underestimate javs and bolts for hitting Byz armor.

be comforted if defeated in battle by the Byz that your units are a lot more replaceable and cheaper and that you'll win in the long run.

let the Turks weaken them.

units to build: slav warriors are really cheap and work as nice garrison troops with decent charge. they are actually better than vanilla spears and I use them to pin sometimes. they are also fast so they can catch any infantry they are able to rout

UM for flanking armor on a budget.

slav javs: hits armor real well form the behidn with javs and then charge in for the kill. also fast and can catch routers.

medium cav: cheapo light cav for the early years where any cav is a huge advantage.

mtd x-bows: bread and butter skirmisher unit for you.

you are the only eastern faction without access to generic HA so this is your bet. good thing it has decent melee and can shoot armor piercing bolts.

plays havoc with katanks and can lure them into javelin traps easily.

good for annihilation of armor. just dont' try and duel archers using these as the slow fire rate will have them even more dead than vanilla archers. charge them or run away.

[Zortanius]

Hi everyone,

I Think the tips for playing the Poles were very insightful - of course my first campaign with the Polish was done bereft of this knowledge (sigh...). However certain trends do happen to occur - eventually King Kasimierz turns up, lives till 70, gets upto rank 6 or so and presides over a large and established realm. Thereafter within 10 or 15 years, civil war erupts. I have played the poles 3 times - each time expanding in different directions and each time eventually civil war erupted. Unlike other factional fratricides though - this one is most self defeating - the 2 rival factions are roughly equal - if one is bigger (more provinces and or more men) the other faction will have better troops. Basically watch out when your higher nobility starts seeming to spring from the same families - Jagellionczyk, Turek, among others and when the names get so large that the font gets smaller in the banner at the top of the profile pages.

Additionally, IMHO, the fate of the hungarians is inextricably tied to the your diplomacy towards them - if you ally with them and act nice to them (which I did out of fear at the start), they will expand nicely as well. If you take a chance and kill them off early - so be it. Other factions don't seem to grind down the hungarians as much.

The above 2 phenomena happen in normal, hard and expert. I have never played the poles in easy. The first time I played the Poles, I wanted a challenge and played as normal - I allied with the hungarians, attacked the germans and did little else (being absolutely new to the game back then). I got as far as swabia but then in a rash attack got my king stuck in a forest with some german UM and spearmen - needless to say he died, everyone else fled, I had no remaining heirs (another heir died in another battle), and my realm degenerated into petty factions et al.

Second time round was better - I played normal, got all of the steppes and eastern europe, most of central europe, most of asia minor and got as far as antioch before civil war erupted.

Third time (hard) all the way upto naples and cordoba altho not beyond kiev - civil war.

Finally played expert - balkans, denmark, western steppe and upto lorraine and tuscany before.. you guessed it civil war. This one was quite challenging.

And yes I agree when the civil war happens you feel very sapped and just don't wanna hang aroun trying to beat or get all your previous armies back. Plus it hurts having to slaughter all those CMAA, Knights and arbalesters you yourself trained. Sorry, I take my game very personally =).

Also despite having played the game with almost every faction - some of my most enjoyable battles were with the Poles - beating the Mongols with spearmen, archers and merc cavalry was classic. That battle lasted a very long time.

The Polish are hard to play but that much more exhilarating - even on Glorius achievements.

Anyway that was quite long,

Cheers

[Doug-Thompson]

I don't play Catholic factions much, but will have to try Katank's ransom blitz. I tried a different strategy but now the Hungarians are a dangerous threat, full of Szekelys. Very scary. ~:( Looks like eliminating the Hungarians early is the way to go.

I have found, though, that one one unit of horse archers the Poles get in early scares the dickens out of HRE units. They abandoned Bohemia and Austria without a fight when I invaded with a lot of woodmen and the HA. Then I took Barvaria from them temporarily -- just to start an HRE civil war. I then abandoned Barvaria, let it go rebel and grabbed Venice. Didn't get one excomm warning the whole time.

Went north, built up Pomerinia and crossed the Baltic. Again, the big bunch of woodsmen and the single HA scared off the Vikings in Sweden. I'm only a few moves into the game and the empire stretches from the Arctic to the Adriatic. The only "battle" fought so far was storming the keep in Venice.

The only thing keeping the Hungarians from wiping me out is the threat of the Byzantines. Hopefully, those two will get into a war. Hopefully I can tech up and get some armored spearmen going.

Right now, my plan is to seize Denmark, get my warning, storm the keep before I can get excommunicated and then either reduce the HRE or stab the Hungarians in the back.

[Doug-Thompson]

Also, woodsmen should do about as well as urban militia for an anti-armor flanking unit. They're cheaper and can come straight from the fort.

[katank]

woodsmen are awesome add some armor and they rock for the price.

simply use them in woods and they should be fine.

only protected archers can kill them cost effectively and also they are vulnerable to cav but in the woods, all that is solved.

dashing in bad weather from tree clump to tree clump until up close and then unleashing swarms of woodsmen is a good tactic.

after two or 3 waves of pure woodsmen, all the best enemy units should be heavily attrited and you can finish them off using your own elite units.

get some armor for the woodsmen and build em from Lithuania for good measure.

[MerlinusCDXX]

In my experience as playing the Poles, I've found that I have to keep careful watch on my heir stats (i.e. kill off any heirs that have low command/ bad vices so i don't get a drunken idiot as my next king). I usually keep my borders to Poland/ Silesia in the west, Moldavia/ Kiev inthe south, Lithuania / Livonia in the East, and Sweden/Pomerania/ Prussia up north. this gives me good trade income and upgradable troop production, decent borders, lets me satisfy my GA goals, and gives me a few ship/ agent provinces.

~:cheers:

[BAD]

O_o my first topical post!!!

Well I needed a challenge after playing as the Spanish Steam roller and rich as Hell Egyptians. So I figured the Polish would be a good bet. They have large borders, poor lands and no Tanktakeonallcomerunits. I also decided to limit my ship building to only guard my home waters and limit the trading upgrades to one for each age reached (in each province). And have only bought one merc unit so far ---------> English Longbowmen ~:)

First thing I did was take up all the rebel provinces I could north and east of my homelands. This had the "advantage" of poor lands and establishing pre-empitive borders with the Mongols. Soon enough I had all the steppe provinces but Volga-Bulgaria,, Khazar, Finland and Novgorod. Oh yeah and the HRE crusaded for Livonia :furious3: !!! Soon enough I decided to take Moldavia from the Hungarians to even up my borders to the south. What problems did i have there? SZEKELY's :dizzy2: !!!

However eventually I just cornered them all and advanced behind my armored spearman wall and the army soon crumbled and the province was mine with flanking provided by Horsemen units (A massive bonus in early). They tried to retake it and even attacked Poland too but I crushed both the Invasions and their Leader was Duke Nukem'd by my own King :duel: !!! Unfortunately my armies were not in postion to take over there now very weak position and guess who jumped at the Chance. . The Byzantines. . . I considered going for all out war with them but I needed to prepare for the horde appearing.

The challenge I set for the Horde was to not use Halbs and as few Armour piercing shooters as possible (one per province) and no chivalric units. So My basic starting army consisted of(Stationed in Muscovy, Ryazan, Chernigov, Kiev):-

2 Armored Spearmen
2 Militia Seargeants
1 Feudal men at arms
1 Feudal Knights
1 Royal unit
5 Archers
1 Pavise Crossbowmen
2 Catapults
1 Slav Warriors

I used the Armored Spearmen cos the mogols don't have any armor piercing wepons and they held every position against the horde they were given. (Flanks protected by Militia Seargeants or men at arms of course ;) . If there was a forest then the seargeants and slav warriors set up shop there and I use it to guard the whole of my Armies flank.

The key is to really not put your archers on fire at will. DON'T DO IT. Especially in bridge battles. You need to concentrate all your fire on one unit at a time. This way there Morale gets destroyed and the units battle effectiveness is reduced quickly. I normally stop shooting something when it gets to half strenght and find a larger target (the armored Spearmen and flanking seargeants and/or Knights should be able to take the half strenght units out. Also made sure that my crossbowmen and catapults only fired at the Heavy cavalry so as to maximize their fear and armor piercing properties.

I also remember getting one lucky shot and crushing a mongol prince/general with a huge rock. SPLAT!!! ~:cheers: There was much rejoicing. At the moment all the mongol Invasions have been crushed except I gave up Peryeslav (was too poor) and they are now stuck there and volga bulgaria with the Byzantine Machine behing=d them and me in front. I plan on taking them out in one attack and the I am sure the Byzantines are getting too big for their boots :dizzy2: . . .

It's a greta game atm. Money is tight but I still have 7 standing effective Armies, without getting the rich provinces such as Constantinople or Venice :book: . Try it this way, it's hard but a great challenge ~:grouphug: . I also limited my agents to oly a few of each type and the now 2 6 start spies I have literraly rock the world ~D !!!

Oh yeah also I (well Marquis de Said) changed a few royal units to make the game more interseting. The Danes got Huscarles in early (they actually did something ~:eek: ) and Poles got Polish Retainers in early. While an advantage at first (big unit size ;) )you soon use them efficiently as the get whittled down adn you can't repair them . I have one general now who is from the old days, is totally dis-loyal, 1 man (I refuse to repair the old ones from early ~D ) who is like a heat seeking missile. He goes for the enemy general every time in the flank. He more often than not succeeds as well and chases them down as they flee before his wrath :charge: !!!

Lets see the how the game is panning out soon. . .

[Sir Patrick]

Unlike many other players, I tend to attack the HRE before I move East. There are very fertile lands in the Holy Roman Empire which serve you very well later on in the game when you need to bolster your empire with a huge army. Ever since the first time I played as the Poles, I have had a patent distrust for the HRE. It tends to break alliance and attack at the worst possible moments. The easiest way to deal with this is to attack early in the game.

Also, the early HRE armies are surprisingly weak if you take the time to bolster your own army with regular troops. HRE armies consist of a great number of peasant units early on in the game, which makes them very easy to break. If you conquer a few rebel territories before you move on against Germany, you can use woodsmen against the Imperial troops, which is a great advantage. Polish Retainers are also invaluable when charging the less experienced peasants and foot soldiers that they can array against you.

The fighting isn't easy, and you may be forced to flee in the face of superior numbers on a few occasions, but the fruits of your efforts are some of the richest lands in all of Europe. At this point, you are poised to make moves against many of the European powers including Hungary or Italy to the south, France to the west, or Denmark to the north. Russia can be used as an effective breakwater against the mongol invasion when it arrives and the Baltic states can be used to create a great navy for trade and further invasion.

Personally, I prefer to move into the Crimea as my next step and then prepare a navy for an amphibious landing against the Holy Land. The idea of a Polish crusader state appeals to me for some reason. In a situation where you are playing for Glorious Achievements, this decision is particularly useful because you are then depriving the other European powers of many important glory points if you remain allied with them and remain on the Pope's good side. It is extremely important to remain on the Pope's good side as the Poles. The Papacy can be a very powerful ally which will protect you from some of the more aggressive ambitions of the other European powers.

Cliff's Notes: Try moving against Germany after you conquer the rebel territories to the east and north. After this, you have a multitude of different choices, but one of the cooler ones is to make a campaign against the Holy Land or to annex Hungary or both. Use Russia as a breakwater against the Mongol tide later in the game. Also, stay in the good graces of the Pope. Keep his Holiness as a pal, and he will pay you back time after time when he sides with you over other aggressive powers. Don't underestimate the power of both Polish Retainers and Woodsmen against less experienced or lighter troops. These units, along with Crossbowmen should be the shock troops of your army early on in the game. Do this, and the world is your oyster. :charge:

[Charlè]

Comrades, my first post.

Playing with the Poland faktion is very exciting and challenge. Agreed, they have no leaders to start, and regret, armies leave the battle field before 1/4 time have ellapsed. In some cases, routing can only be avoided by withdrawal from the field, especially when facing superior armies and troops from HRE and Danes. So much for Polish courage, but complete armies have been lost in single battles . . . !
I used halbadiers4 and arbalesters4 steppe cavalry2 and boyars1 very succesfully as Russian faktion, but somehow, the same strategy does not work so well for the Polish faktion. The strategy is well described in the posts for Russian Guides. Thank you cde Katank and others ...
Any suggestion on what strategy can be emplyed for Polish armies?

cde Charlè

[m52nickerson]

The key to Poland (in VI) is in the stepps. You have to make use of the units you can make there. You can get Avar nobles from Molavia. They are one of the best (if not the best) Heavy calvary in early. You need to also use the two stepp calvary types. Normal Stepp calvary is damn fast and great for flanking. Nice in early when you have to use spears. Then you get the Heavy Stepp calvary. They are one of the best missle cav in the game.
If you can manage to take Pomerania, Prussa, Volhynia, Lithuania, Kiev, and Molavia quickly and get trade going you should be in great position to build up and crush everyone later on.

[m52nickerson]

It seems as Poland has gotten a bad rep by some in MTW. This is unfounded. Poland is probable one of the most fun factions to play. They have a great starting positions, a lot of different units they can easily get, plus they can get very good generals towards the end of the game. Lets look closer.

Poland's starting position

Some would say that Poland is in a terrible position to start, this is not so. To the west of Poland you have the HRE and the Hungarians. Both are catholic factions and can be allied with easily at the start of the game. They will all most always leave you alone until much later in the game. The HRE gets into wars with every one else and love that fact that you protect its eastern boarder. The Hungarians tend to get in to a war with the Byz.
Now to your east you have the Stepps. All rebel territory just waiting to be taken. You can more then double your size in ten turns. Gaining 5 sea provinces on your way. Never getting into a war the whole time. This means that you can have a large empire, with the begining of a great trade network before you ever have to get into a major conflict.

The Polish units roster

Poland get only one unique unit, the Polish Retainers. They are arguable the best Medium cav in the game. You do have to wait until the late period to make them, but they still have a advantage over kights. There stamina. Retainers can run for longer amounts of time on the battle field. This means they can chase router, and flank charge more often then knights. They are also cheaper to produce and maintain.
Poland also has access to a number of other semi unique units (units available to other factions as well). Lets look at these.

Slav warriors - these are cheap peasant like unit, but they are far better then peasants. They are great for garrison duties, and can take out most early spear units because of there numbers. Very early they will be a the back bone of your armies.

Slav javelin men - javelins are great for taking out any thing with armor, and those pesky jedi generals.

Armoured spearmen - These guys are great. They are basically Chivalric sergeants -1 defence. They can stand up to almost any early unit very well. They give you a huge advantage in the spear category. Even when Chivalric sergeants become available these guys will remain very useful. Just a great unit.

Mounted Crossbows - These are the bane of the Byzantine Kataphraktoi. Like all crossbows they are armor piercing so they can easily destroy Kataphraktoi which are not fast enough to catch them. You can also put one unit right behind your arches and just let them fire at will. Because they are on horse back they will not get a sight penalty.

Woodsman - these guys are the best at flanking charge or ambushes. Why, they have an 8 charge. That is as high as most cav. They are also armor piercing. So pin with your Armoured spears, then flank with your woodsmen and watch the insta-rout.

Next Poland has easy access to a number of units that can only be produced in certain provinces. While any faction can produce these, no one can get them as easily as the Poles.

Avar Nobles - produced in Moldavia these are basically Kataphraktoi with normal speed and a slightly weaker charge, and they are in early. This is a great heavy cav for any age. In early they can dominate the field if used correctly.

Steppe Cavalry - Produced in a number of the provinces to Poland's east. Stepp Cavalry is fast, fast, fast. They are the best at taking out Horse Arches, and are great flankers. They are not weak nether, so they can take a beating. Again available in early.

Steppe Heavy Cavalry - This unit is a medium cav that also thinks that they are Horse arches. They are great at both. They can wear units down with there bows, then engage them in melee quite well. They high armor also protects them from most arches. A great multi-purpose unit.

Lithuanian Cavalry - They come from Lithuanian and are very close to Retainer. They take a long time to reach (tech wise) so are not that useful.

Bulgarian Brigands - Arches with some melee skill. They are also fast of infantry. They are great to use at your flanks were they can wear down enemy units then engage them until you can send help.

Viking Huscarles, Landsmen - Poland is very close to Sweden and Norway. If you can get them early you can produce both Viking Landsmen (Good) and then Huscarlers (Better). These guys can kick the hell out of most other things in early, and in late, and still some things in high. They can only be produced in early so make as many as you can. Beware the Polish Vikings.

So lets review, Poland, with a little work can field any army in early that is as good (if not better) then most armies in late. A Polish army of Armored spear with Vikings on the flanks, backed up with Steppe Heavies and Avar nobles is a scary thing. No other faction, save Novgorod, is in a position to do this. So does anyone still think Poland is weak?

I almost forgot. Poland my not start with a good number of stars in there royal line, but this can be a good thing. Each generation of royals will be slightly better then the last. You will never run into a situation were your nine star king starts to produce zero star heirs. Polish generals also seem to pick up the mighty warrior, and natural leader virtues very often. So your general may only have 3-4 stars, but give +2 moral, and can beat up the other general in a fight. This with the fact that your kings tend to produce a good number of heirs means you will find your self with some good general.

[The Darkhorn]

...

Avar Nobles - produced in Moldavia these are basically Kataphraktoi with normal speed and a slightly weaker charge, and they are in early. This is a great heavy cav for any age. In early they can dominate the field if used correctly.

Steppe Cavalry - Produced in a number of the provinces to Poland's east. Steep Cavalry is fast, fast, fast. They are the best at taking out Horse Arches, and are great flankers. They are not weak nether, so they can take a beating. Again available in early.

...
You are so right. I love playing Poland . These two you mentioned are the best Heavy and Medium in Early AND High. Steppies butcher, cook, and eat Horse Archers and then come back and still charge into the rear of a stuck in Mongol Heavy Cavalry (routing them of course)...and still have the fun of running down routing infantry. I sometimes have trouble tiring them out!

I recommend spamming Avar noble if you can afford it and basically use them as your Heavy Cavarly for the rest of the game. Tech it up as much as possible with Silver armor and Master Horse Breeder. You've only got till 1205, so you have to capture it fast. Silver Avars will kick butt. Try charging 8 Avars right at the enemy....while flanking and charging their flanks and rear with 8 Steppies. Watch the great skidaddle and laugh menacingly!

[Byzantine_Fury]

I basically do the same as most of you said, i ally with my neighboors and build up slowly expanding, but i try to keep novogrod around as they can provide a bunker for when the horde shows up, so that later i can step in and the take their weakened provinces.

[Librarian]

yeah, i do exactly the same, i am playing GA at hard, year is 1353 and i still haven't fought with anyone apart from rebels:)
i have developed a well earned trade system, took Constantinople and Portugal cause of high income, i am currently behind at score but advancing well, Almohads look burned off. Still awaiting for climax.

[Librarian]

forgot to ask, what versions and level difficulty do u play?

[m52nickerson]

I have played a lot on normal. My current campaign is hard GA, doing Ok but not as well as I would like.

[Librarian]

I have played a lot on normal. My current campaign is hard GA, doing Ok but not as well as I would like.

how do u start? ok i know the two starting provinces are nothing really, but with 6000 florins u should be able to manage well with the rebels near u. I started with attacking the two rebel provinces that drive u to the sea, i don't remember the names, one is to the north (Norht sea) and one drives to the south (Black sea). that will help u to start develop sea trade and accelerate ur income. and also avoid conflict with main powers like HRE and Byzantines. It will be very good also if u can take Sweden before Danish do, cause of its high income.

[Librarian]

sorry meant 4000 florins:)

[Bill Westwater]

A good start is to take Moldavia ASAP, probably (turn 2 or 3), and immediately start building for Avar nobles, which will take about 25 years. After another 4 or 5 years move into Kiev. Rebels in Moldavia will retreat but in Kiev they will fight. Make sure you have enough and the right kind of troops to beat horse archers and steppe cavalry, which can sometimes be tricky, take your king and one of his heirs. In Kiev build for trade and shipbuilding initially, and steppe heavy cavalry later. Kiev is potentially your richest province once you get its trade working.
After Kiev head up and take Pomerania and again build for trade and shipping. You should be able to take all three before 1100. It is a good idea to consolidate for a while before heading for Lithuania (Volhynia should prove no problem, but leave Prussia as it is rebellious and not worth much) with its three trade goods. In the short term you will be down to virtually no money but by about 1150 you should start to see your income pick up considerably as your trade routes grow.
All the time you are doing this you want to keep on good relations with HRE, Hungary, and Byzantium, making alliances. Don't do anything to lose them as allies (sometimes attacking Novgorod can lose you Byzantium, which is bad news) Though Poland starts weak it is not too difficult to build it into a powerful faction by around 1150-1200, as mentioned in earlier mails, its army is excellent. In early the cavalry combination of Avar nobles (easily the best buildable cavalry in the early period IMHO. ) mounted sergeants and steppe cavalry, plus Armoured spearmen and lithuanian woodsmen, make it, for me, the most enjoyable faction in the early period.

[m52nickerson]

One thing that can help, try to fight the rebels in each provence instead of making them retreat. That way you will not have to face huge rebel armies later. For example Moldavia normally has only one unit of spears guarding it. Send in a unit of Slav warriors to take the provence. It will be a close fight but you should win and kill most of the spear unit.

Also try to bribe the forces in the forts in Kiev and Lithuania. Once they accept your bribe move the rest of your forces into the provence, that way the rebels will not be able to retreat into the fort, there is a less of a chance of the building being destroyed.

[HopelessCelt]

I have played Polish several different times from the first time I got the game up to now. I find them different to most of the other factions, being unable to launch Crusades, having large boarders and always having to face the Horde makes them a challenge in most cases. I generally grab several lands around me, and then see how the situation is around me to see where to go next. In the East, the best two lands are Kiev and Lithuania; these give you only two provinces in the east. One army can cover both of them, usually placed in Kiev due to it’s easiness to defend.

My aims in the early years (first ten) is to take control of Prussia, Pomerania and Volhynia. These, along with Poland and Silesia, become the back bone of your army production. I generally use Prussia and Pomerania as ship produces to take control of the North Sea Trade and troop movement for later. Now it’s time to check the rest of the world. Depending on who is weak (HRE or Hungary), you will advance West or South. I generally leave the Danes alone until I can attack Denmark via land just so I can retreat with ease.

If Hungary is weak, make a push towards Constantinople, thus going to war with the Byzantines. Hopefully, you will crush the Hungarians completely and take them out of the game, but the Byzantines will be left alive so peace is necessary (not for land reasons, but the Byzantines are buggers for building ships and interrupting trade.) This push south would have allowed you to start building ships in the Balkans and increase your trade more. Placing a nice defensive army in Constantinople, you know have two boarders guarded with two armies, keeping most of your armies in an offensive role.

The push west depends on who has taken power there, and it is usually a long slog before you reach your target provinces of either Toulouse/Aquitaine or Navarre/Aragon, depending if you wish to go to war with the extra two provinces. Now take Scandinavia and Britain, and you should now have removed any northern boarders. With choke holds in the east, south and west, your two main problems lie in the Horde appearing and the Italians/Papacy (depending again on how far you pushed). I generally like to push up to the Papacy as they are generally quiet and only require a small boarding army. Now spend your time readying to defeat the Horde (if it hasn’t already appeared.)

Once the Horde has been subdued, it’s down to you whether your attention turns to Spain, the Steppes or Asia. Once again, I like to take Spain and hold Morocco. Now your three Boarders are covered in by four provinces, economic or what? Now the Steppes, stopping at Khazar or Georgia. Prepare yourself for the assault on Asia and dig in. Push yourself along North Africa and into Egypt. Moving your two eastern armies down, you will generally catch the rest of Asia stuck between three armies and each other if one has not taken dominance.

Finally, it’s the island assault to finish of the Byzantines and Sicily. Finally, crush the Pope and the world belongs to the Poles.

Enjoy.

[KrooK]

As natural born Pole (:P) i think i should reply here.
First of all Poland on early had some great generals. King Boleslav Krzywousty won war with HRE.
During high era there were feudal division into Poland (same like in rest of europe) but there were some well generals too. But similar situation was on every country in the Europe.
But on late in Poland there were so many great generals that mentioning their would take really long time. For example king Wladislav Łokietek - the one who united country and held Teutonic Order or king Wladislav Jagiello - winner from Grunwald Battle. They should have not less than 4 to 6 stars :)
In campaign best option is capture rebel countries on east. If there are mongols, you should start war with them - at the beginning they got strong army but weak economy. If you crush their army, there will be no next.
When you conquer east Europe, you should upgrade economy - especially Novogrod, Kiev, Khazar and Latvia. And if you manage to do it - you can attack whatever you want :)

[Charlè]

The Polish leaders are just not good enough to keep the men on the field. The Russian leaders are able to keep the men in battle even when outnumbered. Perhaps my strategy need to improve.

This is what I do in battle:
Form a medium length line with Halbs and Arbls, 5 units of each, supported by Polish retainers to flank and chase the routed troops.
Put the Arbls on HOLD POSITION, to keep them in place so that they fire at least 3 shots at the advancing enemy
Move forward with Halbs to make contact with charging enemy.
(I never allow enemy to attack the flank of my line, I meet them square on), but the Polish Halbs lose their courrage very quick and run. Soon I have chaos of getting everybody over the border with many losses, because the halbs are slow, and Arbls dont fight to well in the gaps left by the 'not so brave comrades'

I have adapted a cowardly strategy to abandon the field as soon as I notice the 2nd or 3rd Halbs units are losing their courrage. They loose courrage when only 6 men out of 60 have perished, where Russian Halbs have fought to the last man!!!:furious3:

Now I have to command my Retainer and Arbls to run, this way I save 1/2 my army (exept the Halbs) but not much pride . . . :embarassed:

[Vladimir]

I've found Froggy's guide very informative in regards to halberdiers. Their morale is so low that they require a lot of management. I don't use them in battle, but as castle defenders they're hard to beat.

[Odin]

The Polish leaders are just not good enough to keep the men on the field. The Russian leaders are able to keep the men in battle even when outnumbered. Perhaps my strategy need to improve.

This is what I do in battle:
Form a medium length line with Halbs and Arbls, 5 units of each, supported by Polish retainers to flank and chase the routed troops.
Put the Arbls on HOLD POSITION, to keep them in place so that they fire at least 3 shots at the advancing enemy
Move forward with Halbs to make contact with charging enemy.
(I never allow enemy to attack the flank of my line, I meet them square on), but the Polish Halbs lose their courrage very quick and run. Soon I have chaos of getting everybody over the border with many losses, because the halbs are slow, and Arbls dont fight to well in the gaps left by the 'not so brave comrades'

I have adapted a cowardly strategy to abandon the field as soon as I notice the 2nd or 3rd Halbs units are losing their courrage. They loose courrage when only 6 men out of 60 have perished, where Russian Halbs have fought to the last man!!!:furious3:

Now I have to command my Retainer and Arbls to run, this way I save 1/2 my army (exept the Halbs) but not much pride . . . :embarassed:

Well you might want to change your melee troops from Halbs to something else, spearmen are a nice cheap substitute and can usually handle a pretty good load. LEadership might be the issue to, as I recall when I played Poland last I didnt have remarkable generals.

Also those Polish Retainers, if I recall, have excellent charge stats, might want to flank when your Halbs are engaged and charge in, might give your army the boost it needs.

[Loucipher]

Looks like The Polish are still a faction hard to master by some MTW players.
I have yet to play this factions with VI installed, but the very, very first campaign I played (and managed to finish actually) was with this faction. Well, being a Pole (salute to my compatriots m52nickerson and KrooK - Witajcie!), what other faction could I choose for the start?
My campaign got pretty much as described by many people here. I started by rushing towards the first Rebel provinces I could get - Pomerania (to prevent HRE taking it), then Prussia and then Moldavia (which was just another province close to my borders at the moment, since Avar Nobles, the main reason for its taking, were unavailable without the VI add-on). Then, I went east, eventually stumbling into The Novgorod. Taking out Rebel provinces one by one was really just a target practice for my generals, therefore I have managed to outlive the initial crappiness of my commanders, simply by schooling the chosen ones, and letting others die. From early on I have reasoned (knowing the medieval history of my country reasonably well) that cavalry has been always a hallmark of Polish armies (we owe some of our most brilliant victories to our mounted troops, and our last genuine, horse-equipped cavalry units fought as late as the September Campaign of World War II in 1939). So I have intuitively begun the buildup towards cavalry units, soon getting Polish Retainers in Poland - for early, these were my Riders of Doom (I once got a splendid skirmish between my 40 riders and a Rebel unit of 60 Archers, which ended with 12 Archers slain, the remainder captured, all that with... 0 losses - these wretches broke almost instantly) :) Rushing all the way east, I have enlisted Steppe Cavalry into my services, which let me literally ride the eastern armies down. My typical army rooster of that time included: 2-3 Steppe Cavalry, 3-4 Polish Retainers or Mounted Sergeants (later Feudal Knights where available), 2-3 Archers, 3-4 Spearmen (later Feudal Sergeants), 2-4 Woodsmen, Urban Militia or Militia Sergeants (later included 2 FMAA instead of Woodsmen). Such armies could prove dangerous to almost any threat, when used with just a little care.
With the advent of the High Period my armies were a little bit outdated, but I was able to field Chivalric Knights, Chivalric Sergeants and Crossbows (both on foot and mounted) almost instantly. My country was at that time involved with a huge exchange of blows with Byzantium, which lasted on two fronts (one around the weakened Hungary and the other in Georgia-Khazar choke point), so most of my armies were close to where the Mongols emerge.
Nonetheless, it was a bit of a surpise. My jaw made a heavy :jawdrop: when I saw a Stack comprising of 16 MHA units, led (as is historically true) by Ogadai Khan himself.
But having 4 stacks of a decent composition (one army made entirely from High Era units, led by a freshly-emerged 5-star heir with 20 High RKs) meant that the Mongols were in for a massive amount of beating.
And what a beating they got!
In two defensive battles the Mongols lost 2/3 of their forces (especially MHA would sell themselves dearly :duel: ), and the remaining, including Ogadai, were captured and executed. The Mongol Horde never conquered a single province on my map, thus having no chance of reappearing. Having taken care of any wounds inflicted by this sudden onslaught, my armies proceeded to finish off Byzantium, flushing out the Hungarians in the process (yes, it is true than we and the Magyars are two nephews, as the old line goes, but we need to be united under one banner before it actually works :) ).
That left me with almost half of the Europe under my reign, the Holy Land within a camel spit, and the Germans valiantly shielding my back (as incredible as it may seem, the alliance settled in 1090 miraculously survived until 1252 - gute Deutschen :D ). Well, the time has come to pay them for their faithful services and dismiss them into oblivion.
Having shifted the majority of the armies (only some of the troops were performing mop-ups in the Asia Minor, before striking into the deserts) to the European Theatre of Operations, I have launched an all-out assault into the very heartland of HRE. Unsurprisingly, I have learned the most obvious lesson: don't mess with fellow Catholics while you are the strongest in the lot, or you'll get expelled. The Pope stepped in, which caused excommunication and some minor loyalty problems, but did not save Germans from extinction. The reappearance of the previously vanquished French didn't help them, either, as they too began chewing at their borders in a vain hope of regaining former glory (in essence, they screwed up, and lasted in a single province for some 10 years, until they drowned under the wave of red which was slowly devouring the Europe. The two factions, that were my allies at that time - the Danes and the English, escaped the destruction and were left for later.
In the meantime, I have shifted my attention to the south, where the Almohads laid lazy and drunk over the remnants of both Iberian kingdoms - they were lucky (or just aggressive enough) to crush both Spanish and Aragonese. Their armies were the most problematic, as I recall, and it also took massive pains to bring back the population into Catholic Church, as most of them have gone Islamic under Almohad rule :)
The clock has hit the Late Period before last defenders of the Black Crescent finally withered and died. Only weakened Egyptian Sultanate stood against my rolling forces by then. As a mop up, I have had crushed the Danes in the meantime, so both the Baltic and the Black sea were my internal ponds for breeding a large navy, which I had to muster to allow final subjugation of the Mediterranean isles as well as the biggest archipelago in Europe - The British Isles.
My armies were already waiting at the French shores for the opportunity to attack, but I had to take out British navy first, for if I had fought my way up from Flanders I would surely get excommed - something I could not allow to happen just then.
I had managed to sweep the seas clean of English fleet in one turn, which allowed me to launch a naval attack next year against every single province on the Isles - including Ireland. It was already my second turn of hostilities against a significantly weaker Catholic faction, so it was to no surprise that the pesky Pope sent me a reprimand. I was already enraged enough at him for his constant nagging about my politics (and the continuation of it, along the line of Clausewitz), but his plans were thwarted by a mishap that had befallen the English royal milk-sob - he chose to retreat from the province and was captured when the province he retreated to was overrun, then... well... his coffers proved to be empty :) The rebels are of no importance to that fat bloke in Rome, so I could finish them off quickly.
Just then, it happened. Some of my most trusted generals turned against me.
Fortunately, the choice was simple. The rebels were so overwhelming that I sided with them, and ended up fighting the former members of my own royalty :)
After this slight political incident I have invaded the Papal lands, to teach that perfidious and sanctimonious excuse of a priest not to mess with the power of the White Eagle. Not surprisingly, he was swept away - so fast that he didn't even manage to sign the excommunication! He reappeared some 30 years later, when I was busy disposing of the last points of resistance on the Mediterranean, but was instantly crushed again - this time for good.
In the meantime, the Byzantines reappeared, conquering (among other provinces) Rhodes, Crete, Malta and Naples. Instantly driven out of the mainland, they lived on for some 10 years on the islands, until in 1412 the last defenders of La Valletta capitulated before my armies.
All in all, it was the first and so far the most rewarding MTW campaign I have finished. No other faction brought such amount of fun to me.

[m52nickerson]

Looks like The Polish are still a faction hard to master by some MTW players.
Taking out Rebel provinces one by one was really just a target practice for my generals, therefore I have managed to outlive the initial crappiness of my commanders, simply by schooling the chosen ones, and letting others die.

Many players seem to miss this opportunity at the start of the game. Then you can normally bribe one good rebel general to your side. My current game I bribed the general in Lithuania right off the bat, he only had two stars, but had the great leader, and famously brave virtues.
:poland:

[Loucipher]

I always take this into consideration, especially when this general sits in the garrison and there is no field army in the same province (a successful bribe means you get both the general and the province for the same money without risking any mess with the buildings - very nice!), but at the very start of the game bribery is an option which is not always affordable...
Anyway, the one you're talking about is probably worth the money - he has a great potential to evolve into a 9-star butcher :)
I'll try him out in my recently started Polish campaign - Lithuania is still independent, and my treasury can afford the reasonable bribe... my emissary will take care of it on his way back from Novgorod.

[m52nickerson]

The general may not be as the same in your game, it seems random what V&Vs they get.

I always try to bribe lithuania of Kiev to keep the buildings intact. Most of the time I can afford to bribe one, but only a few times both.

[Loucipher]

True said. The general in Lithuania, although 3-star, turned out to have no V&Vs whatsoever. Well enough - he got raided and scared away into the fort by my 5-star youngest offspring, Prince Leszek. Time to wither and die, weakling :charge: :surrender:
I tried to attack Kiev, but the Byzantines, damn Eastern dogs, moved in with a huge stack of crappy peasants and stole my province for themselves :furious3: Come to think of it, really Byzantine way of exploiting an alliance - aid your ally in attacking, then seize the province. They'll regret that, I swear.

[Zain]

Every time I play a campaign the poor Polish get their butt's kicked. So I modded them and gave them all sorts of money. It's fun to see the Polish conquer the HRE!!! :smile:

-ZainDustin

[Vladimir]

I'd like to advocate for the taking of Bavaria first and bribing that long rebel province to the East if you're playing XL. I just started a Polish game and that rich iron producing province will help my troop production and the land to the east will help me establish a "core". To complete the formation of my buffer states to the east I just need to conquer Lithuania (damn boyars!) and I should be fairly secure there. The HRE never lasts for long, plus I'll leave the rebels there to draw attention away. If the Huns give me lip I'll invade into Hungaria. It's so fun attacking downhill.

[Asmodai]

I'd like to advocate for the taking of Bavaria first and bribing that long rebel province to the East if you're playing XL. I just started a Polish game and that rich iron producing province will help my troop production and the land to the east will help me establish a "core". To complete the formation of my buffer states to the east I just need to conquer Lithuania (damn boyars!) and I should be fairly secure there. The HRE never lasts for long, plus I'll leave the rebels there to draw attention away. If the Huns give me lip I'll invade into Hungaria. It's so fun attacking downhill.

My first serious post in this forum. Whow!

My experience from Polish campaign: Early/expert/GA on VI+XL mod.

Taking HRE early isnt a problem, but you may be having trouble in future, especialy on XL mod, where most of the rebel provinces (in vanilla) is taken by new minor fractions such as Lithuanians, Russians, Cumans, Bulgarians...
Lithuanians and Cumans tend to be agressive. If you not deal with them quickly, expansion to the steppes will be harder, if impossible.

Secure volynia(preferably by bribing that horse archers) and attack Cumans in Moldavia at once. One thing to remember. Slay every prisoner captured in Moldavia. After securing moldavia, raid Carpathia only. If you have spare troop(not in expert difficulty setting, belive me...hardly enough for securing volynia and moldavia without risking loyalist or rebel revolts), secure it also.

Now, observe the reaction of Cumans and Russians. Propably, they will be fighting each other, probably in Kiev. Wait for that moment and attack Kiev also. In three sided battle, place army on high ground and wait. Cumans and Rusians massacre each other. Mop up the rest.

Leave some spears and missile troops, and prepare to strike Lithuanians in Lithuania. If you secure Kiev, Moldavia, and Lithuania, key to the steppes lay in your hands. But do not advance into steppes yet. Secure Pomerania and Prussia. Now, strike smolensk and Chernihov. If you have big army, attack Livonia. Leave other provinces to Novogorod, Russians(if they survive), Cumans and Bulgarians. They will be excelent buffer, when mongols arrive.

Polish troop roster and availability of troops in other steppe fractions in quite the same. Some may say, that the Poles are without any chance....
Heh, only one unit has potential to break the power of the steppe chieftains.
Knights. Good using knights(not only for flanking manuvers) is the key.
Royal knights are the great for defending Poland and Siliesia. Leave one spearmen(or armoured spearmen) and one unit or royal knights. If HRE or Hungary attacks you, retreat to the stronghold. Assault on keep with feudal foot knights inside...without heavy cavalry bad idea. I once butcherer couple hundreds of german spearmen. Well, only 9 knights and about 30 spearmen survived, but i won siege battle and counerattack was on the way.
But this is another story to be told


Have fun with Polish.

[Charlè]

Cde Odin
I have followed your advice more or less as follows. I have replaced 50% of the halbs with spearmen, to cover the flanks. They take a lot of punishment, but I can not make any attacking move with them, therefore my attack comes from the center, with the halbadiers. I works out well, provided that the front line does not have to face too many enemy units at the same time. I now use the Retainers to divert the attention of the enemy by charging the enemy flanks, with no reservations. Previously I used the retainers as an 'impact in the center' when the forces came in contact, but it did result in much success, so the retainers were always in reserve. The new strategy is a 50% sacrifice of the Retainers, but for the glory of Poland no sacrifice is too costly!!!
The new strategies are satisfactory, because even if I still lose many of the battles against strong factions, it was not without a brave fight from all the units.
The trend of routing has thus been reduced, but I still need to improve my strategy more to hold my ground in every (evenly matched) battle.

Question:
Do you use different troops for attacking/defending. If so, please give me an idea of your defensive and attacking army structures.

[Asmodai]

Hmm, changing halberds to spearmen...

If you like halberdiers, invest some money and buy more chivalric knights.

I dislike polish retainers for one reason. They have excellent stats, but they are slow, at least for light cav. When they are available (in high), they are usualy outdated , cos steppe cavalry is faster, and steppe heavy is shooty.
In early, mounted sergeants and mounted xbows do the light cav tasks.

I use combo of Chivalric Knights(usualy 8), Steppe Cavalry/Mounted Crossbowmen/Steppe Heavy(rest). This mix is pervect to deal with any army. Few Chivalric Knights on foot will punch great hole in any spearwall, while shooty cav decrease their morale with bow/xbow fire. Rest of your chivs charge and finish the battle in spectacular fashion.
I rarely use any infantry, for garrisoning duties they are excellent.
In early, avar nobles are great unit (as good as feudal knights, but disciplined also).

Russians...ah, one of the hardest enemy of Poles.
Spearwall is good, but their boyars(your prime target as spearmen) also shoots, so they will be evading your spearmen blocks. Also, when caught, they are very good at melee, so they loss only few men. So, charge them with Knights. If you using blocks of spearmen, tie their infantry, and hit their flanks with knights. Or....concentrate couple units at one point, deploy them on wedge formation and charge them at one unit. Your target will take horrendous casualities and near always, they break. Break through, and charge their whole line from the back...or, roll their line from that break. While whole line starts to run for their lives, chase them with light cav. Few enemy units may hold their ground, so, finish them off with you free units of knights. This rush tactic have one drawback. Problably one or two of your units will take heavy losses, about 50% or more. But it pays off, when you crush enemy army with one swift blow, taking couple hundreds of prisoners.

[Agent Miles]

Poland/Early/Expert/GA (no mods, no VI)

First off, I built three peasant units in Poland and a fort in Silesia. The peasants took over garrison duty and I invaded Pomerania with everything else. The rebels fled and I built a fort, a port, a keep, a shipwright and a barque in Pomerania. I was on a tight budget during this time period, so I only expanded my forces after the shipwright was nearly done. I was able to marry off two daughters to the HRE and Hungary, as well as ally with most of the Catholic factions. I then invaded Sweden with my king, his three sons, four spearmen, two urban militias, one HA and two mounted crossbow (MC) units. The rebels again fled.
At this point, Denmark invaded Saxony. I took advantage of this to take Denmark. Their king returned, looked at my army and fled. I auto-calced the siege and shipped in a peasant garrison. Then I invaded Saxony. The Danes retreated to the fort and I auto-calced this siege too. This got me ex-communicated, but most of my allies stayed with me and the Pope soon died of old age.
I rebuilt my army and invaded Norway. The MC’s slaughtered a third of the Vikings before I engaged them, for an easy victory. I concentrated on my trade fleet and was quickly clearing 2k florins a turn. I was careful to fill all the governor slots with really loyal peasant units. I only had a 2* son and a 3* “crackbrained” son (with only two loyalty), so I exiled the 3*. To fix this leadership gap, I decided to bribe some rebels. This got me a 4* and three 3* generals, as well as Prussia and Lithuania (after another auto-calced siege). Brandenburg rebelled against the HRE, and I invaded. They fled to the castle and I waited them out for another easy victory.
In less than one hundred turns I have Lithuania, Prussia, Pomerania, Poland, Silesia, Brandenburg, Saxony, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. I have the highest GA total. My governors and most of my generals are quite loyal (As soon as my daughters come of age, I can marry them off to the low loyalty generals and correct this.). I have had no rebellions. My alliances are strong and my trade fleet stretches from the Baltic to the coast of Portugal. So far, this has been one of the easiest factions to play.

[xgeoff]

I just started playing MTW, and have only played the Poles, so I don't have any insight into how they compare with the other factions.

I am on my second game right now, having bumped up the difficulty level to HARD from my first game, which was on EASY. For my EASY level game I played through the entire EARLY period.

I am surprised at the posts here which indicate that the Poles are a difficult faction to play, particularly in the EARLY period. I learned a lot in my first game, but despite my numerous mistakes, by the end of the EARLY period I had NEVER lost a battle, had 100,000 florins in the treasury (this seemed like a lot, is this considered a lot?) and my empire stretched from Friesland to Moscovy.

I also really hadn't been able to exploit some of the advantages that the territories have to offer. For instance, I couldn't figure out how to build Heavy Steppe Cavalry and Avar Nobles (though I am attempting it now in my next game).

My armies usually consisted of the following:
1-2 Armoured Spearmen
1-2 Woodsmen
1 Horsemen
2 Slav Warriors
4 Royal Knights

I haven't really mastered how to use archers effectively yet. I tried using javelins and mounted crossbowmen but they were pretty useless.

The Royal Knights are pretty much the core of my forces. I think they are relatively cheap and easy to build, and they have thrashed every opposing unit I have sent them against.

All in all pretty good, I think. Relations with the neighbors were great (many alliances, no wars), I would just snap up any provinces of theirs that rebelled. I bribed Sweden and Norway, which was pretty cool, and was just starting to understand sea power when I decided to start over on the HARD level.

Now, I just started my HARD game, so I don't have a lot to go on yet, but some early observations include:

1. My generals and princes aren't as good. On the EASY level I had exceptional princes (lots of 4, 5, 6 stars) and fairly able generals. On the HARD setting my generals suck and my princes are mediocre.

2. Battles are pretty much the same, I still have never lost one. I do notice that the opposing armies seem to abandon the provinces more readily, however. I am getting close to being able to create Heavy Steppe Cav and Avar Nobles. Am looking forward to trying them out.

So I haven't really had any difficulties yet, though I haven't had to deal with the Golden Horde or the Civil Wars that were mentioned in earlier posts.

Not sure why others have had such difficulties with this faction.

[Maloncanth]

Just wondering, has anyone tried starting in Late with the Poles? It looks pretty batty. :sweatdrop:

[Deus ret.]

Yes, I once played a hard GA game in Late with the Poles. I used MedMod, though, mainly to profit from the excellent cavalry they gain in Late, but it was quite a challenge. Actually it was too much of a challenge for me...

In the beginning, I decided to secure Prussia (in order to cripple the Teutonic Order) and to turn eastwards subsequently, figuring that the HRE would have enough trouble to leave me alone. In this part of tha calculation I was correct, and also in assuming that the main threat would come from the horde since poor and underdeveloped Lithuania would not be able to hold them off for long. Well, the horde killed off 1-province Novgorod and then turned on the Lithuanians which they crushed quite easily. Intending to avoid a fight in my heartlands I seized Lithuania , creating an 'offshore' battleground. Indeed there was ample opportunity to display some skills in fighting off the Mongols (they had only me as enemy), but the war against them took up most of my resources, and I often found myself seriously undermanned despite barely expanding at all. When the horde got into conflict with the Hungarians I hoped for better times...until that one disastrous turn where both made peace and attacked me simultaneously. My small kingdom probably would have been able to fight off both of them had not the Danes decided to join the feast. It was this strong and decently reinforced incursion which broke my neck, and within two turns I found myself being confined to Ruthenia, the most underdeveloped province. Having no choice but to fight against the (allied) invaders with my incompetent ruler at the head of the remaining army (itself still quite decent, just severely lacking missile units), my fate was sealed two more turns later. I was so shocked that I have abstained from another campaign with them since.....maybe turning west is a better option? but then again, the HRE isn't particularly weak right from the start, and expanding westwards wouldn't solve the Mongol problem. Anyway, before solving this question I switched to PMTW where a successful Polish campaign proved to be pulled of more easily.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Poland is hard to play as,from the starting postions in each era.. They don't got a Bad army selection or anything, so you could easily raise up a small,half decent army and take over and/or bribe the rebel provinces,Like Prussia,etc....

[Kavhan Isbul]

In Late the Polish are not as bad as they appear, as long as you play in the Glorious Achievements mode. They get plenty of points, the key is to crush the Horde (which happens quickly as everyone attacks them) and expand to the East. Then simply try to hold on for as long as possible, until 1453 arrives.

That goes for the vanilla game though, MedMod is much tougher. The Poles are easy in Early, but in late they face the two strongest factions - the Teutonic Order (superior troops) and the Horde (simply too many of them). As far as I remember the Poles were limited to crossbowmen, do they get anything better in Late? I need to check. If not, then it would be quite a challenge. Taking the Teutons out is first order of business, I agree. From what I remeber armies crossing from Saxony to Pomerania face a river battle, so kicking the Danes out of Pomerania early (while they still fight with the Swedes and the HRE) might improve the defensive position a little (then a fleet will become necessary, but even without it for the first few turns the Danes simply do not have enough men to attack everywhere along the coast). Maybe then you can take on the Hungarians while they still fight the HRE and steal Transylvania and Transdanubia. Usually the Wallachians will attack the Horde in Volhynia, and the Horde may also get in war with the Ottomans (this one is almost certain). Then it might be possible to hold out until the Mongols degenerate into civil wars.
It is a hard campaign, and I think I might try it just to see if my theories are plausible.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Tried the Plosih in late in MedMod and they are tough to play. Their cavalry is unstoppable, and their troops overall decent, but there are too many enemies. I invaded Prussia, but then the Swedish and the Order retook it before I could get into the castle. I finally captured it getting excommunicated in the process. This eventually got me in war with the English and a Crusade they sent. It captured Livonia and is sitting there now, unable to do anything more. I attacked the Horde and took Lithuania and Volhynia. However, they keep to come with more and mroe men, depsite they are in war with the Wallachians and the Ottomans. If anyone else attacks me, it will probably be the end of my knigdom, although now the situation is bearable.
The Polish are much easier in early, although their troops are poor compared to those of most of their neighbors.

[Camillvs]

I'm installing MTW XL in a while and after reading this discussion I know I want to play with my Country:) It's hard, as I can see, but love to the Motherland is stronger.

[Deus ret.]

Try MedMod (and don't be deterred by Kavhan Isbul's and my stories :beam:), it only has Early and Late periods but those are excellently crafted. In Late, the Polish unit roster shines, especially with their all-powerful royal cavalry (Rycerzy) and decent axemen, but it's a tough situation throughout.

Another option: download PMTW and play as Poland in the 16th/17th century. GREAT mod indeed and I had two really awesome campaigns as Poland (the second being prematurely terminated by the death of my heirless ruler).

If you like Poland, those two mods feature it at its best.

[Camillvs]

Thanks.

Well, I have some problems with mods at my computer. Game breaks down during loading PMTW, MTW XL or Samurai Warlords campaign. It also happens sometimes while playing "pure" MTW:VI.

I tried this game a few years ago for the first time. At that time game didn't break down in campaign, but since then I have changed Windows from 98 to XP.

I don't know if it's a good place for such technical questions.

[Camillvs]

What is it like with provinces in MedMod? Are they divided better than in "pure" MTW or even MTW XL? I must say, that in MTW XL I really wanted to have at least one more Lithuanian province. It's called "Żmudź" in Polish. Without it the Teutonic Order has to conquer or Lithuania. With this province it would be possible to connect Teutonic provinces without reaching very dangerous Golden Horde's borders.

[Camillvs]

[...] conquer or Lithuania[...]

I wanted to write "conquer WHOLE Lithuania". What a weird mistake;) Is there any possibility of post changing, editing?

[Camillvs]

MedMod also "kicked me of" while loading campaign, but "pure" Scottish campaign tested before installing the mode didn't break down...

[Kavhan Isbul]

What is it like with provinces in MedMod? Are they divided better than in "pure" MTW or even MTW XL? I must say, that in MTW XL I really wanted to have at least one more Lithuanian province. It's called "Żmudź" in Polish. Without it the Teutonic Order has to conquer or Lithuania. With this province it would be possible to connect Teutonic provinces without reaching very dangerous Golden Horde's borders.

No - in MedMod Lithuania is still a big chunk of land, but Poland is divided into 4 provinces. I found the Poles to be extremely fun in early - they have a relativelye asy position, even if most of their units are pretty crappy. The situation in late is entirely oposite - superb units and a horrible position with many strong enemies. Unfortunately there is no high campaign in the latest version of the MedMod.
If I were you I would not worry about the fact that Lithuania is still a single huge province. If you start in early, you will be either powerful enough to stop the Horde in Ukraine on one of the rivers, or they will goo all the way to the Baltic. In MedMod armies tend to be smaller numbers because of the homelands limitations and when the Mongols come with 15,000+ troops, no AI can really put up a fight.
Overall, if you are looking for a really tough challenge, which will test your skills to the maximum, the MedMod is the best choice. You will have hard times, but winning is so much more rewarding.

[Adrian II]

Early, Expert

Having played four Polish campaigns, I am quite confident about the right opening moves.

First off, you destroy the Hungarians. But totally.

On the first turn, build Watch Towers and train an extra unit of Spearmen.

On the second turn, let your King invade Hungary out of Poland. Autocalc. If the Hungarian King is captured, the Hungarians will pay 7000 florins for his release and he will reappear in Croatia. If he isn't captured in Hungary, he will flee to Croatia.

Third turn: attack Croatia, autocalc and the Hungarians will cough up another 4000 for their King. He will reappear in Carpathia.

Fourth turn: by this time you should have a half-decent Prince who will reinforce your attack on Carpathia. Easy pickings. And presto! No more pesky Hungarians. You are now in the money and the iron in Hungary and Carpathia is yours to toy with. This is essential if you want to withstand the Mongol onslaught 130 years down the line.

Now build up your empire by conquering Pomerania (a potential trading harbour, and it cuts off the Germans from the East) and Prussia (a potential trading harbour as well), then some Rebel states to the East (Kiev and Lithuania are a good combination, this leaves you with only two borders in the East) and finally some German territory to the West (preferably rich and iron-holding Bohemia).

If you feel lucky, attack Bulgaria and / or Serbia (which will be in Byzantine hands by this time) and prepare for some massive battles in which your Spears will face multiple Kataphraktos units. In my last Polish campaign, I outmaneuvered the Byzantines on their own Peninsula and managed to get hold of Constantinople for one turn. Acting in the knowledge that I couldn't hold onto it, I destroyed each and every building in Constantinople like a true barbarian. It worked: the Byzantines have never been a real threat again.

Don't forget to build fleets (Pomerania, Prussia, Moldavia, Bulgaria, Kiev) and take up trade, no matter what it takes! In my first campaign, I neglected trade and I was still scraping money for Spearmen when others were building Cathedrals and various Nice Shiny Things to keep hoi polloi happy. 't Was the Mongol what did me in...

Into the breach! :charge: