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Cheetah
04-07-2004, 01:02
EARLY ERA EGYPTIANS

1. Opening moves
Invade Syria on the first turn with everything you can, leaving garrisons in only Antioch and Egypt.
After that, many players wipe out the Turks immediately. I garrison Antioch and Syria and wait a turn or two. There is a good chance the Turks will offer a ceasefire and then get into a war with the Byzantines. Then you can attack again and wipe them out with less trouble.

2. Units to train
Desert archers will help you defeat Turkish horse archers, and are a good unit throughout the early era.
Bedouin camels are not fast enough to make an ideal counter to horse archers. However, they will destroy bodyguard knights. Bedouin Camel Warriors also tend to be good generals and governors. Egypt gets a discount on camels, too.
Nubian spears are a good early unit, excellent for garrisons, but watch their loyalty.

3. Early building
Every province on the Middle Eastern coastline except the Sinai is a glorious achievement goal for someone's Crusade. Therefore, the first order of business is to get the facilities to make dhows, and then build two. One should cover the Nile Coast and the other the Eastern Mediterranean. This cuts off direct invasion by sea.
The second order of business is to get a spear-maker’s workshop somewhere to make Saracen Infantry. The combination of those and desert archers are extremely effective on the rabble in the first wave of Crusades.
Use Armenia to produce Armenian Heavy Cavalry with a bonus. Build up Syria for their assassins. The two-star bonus there makes these assassins extremely effective.

4. The Navy
Extend your navy northward, through the Black Sea. This prevents a back door Crusader landing in Georgia. Then go to the Ionian Sea and up into the Adriatic. This trade route is not dependent on the Byzantines. Antioch is a money tree once a trade network comes to life. Tripoli and Egypt are rich, too.
If you are not at war with the Byzantines by now, start one. Always keep the most important goal in mind: Constantinople. Constantinople’s developed fortress is the key to getting a Grand Mosque for Imans and Nizari. I always build the Grand Mosque there, even though the glorious achievement goals want it built in Egypt. Be sure to take Georgia and fortify it, of course.
Now you have a very nice empire, defended with three land chokepoints: Constantinople, Georgia and Egypt. Expand along the North African coast at the expense of the Almohads. You can push all the way to Cordoba and still end up at a single chokepoint.

5. Crusades
War with Crusades is constant. You should have enough trade wealth to afford plenty of troops, though. Most of the early Crusades will consist of rabble such as fanatics and other unarmored units. These are very vulnerable to desert archers.
The movement programming of the Crusades means that French, English and German ones must keep trying to march through Constantinople if you push other factions far enough back in North Africa. The option of a Crusade landing in Cyrencia, for instance, will not exist as long as you own Cyrencia and have fleets to defend it. The Spanish could Crusade through North Africa, so keep a sizable army there.
Your goal is not to beat Crusades in a fair fight, not unless the odds are extremely favorable. Your goal is to corner them and have them die slowly. The enemy faction cannot launch another Crusade while its first one is dying, not unless the Pope gives a special call.
If you own Constantinople, you simply block Crusades with a large army. If your are not in Constantinople yet, the goal is to keep your armies in front of the Crusaders and to block them, keeping the restrictive movement rules for Crusades in mind.

6. Jihads
Build a ribat, which provides a good morale boost, and a Jihad in every province. Jihads are very effective, particularly in rebellions and civil wars.
That gets us out of the Early Era. Keep fortifying Georgia during this time, for the Golden Horde is coming. Also, build with Faris and Mamelukes in mind.

EDITED: To include the summery compiled by Doug-Thompson

Cheetah
04-07-2004, 01:03
high

Cheetah
04-07-2004, 01:03
late

Doug-Thompson
05-11-2004, 17:11
EARLY ERA

You have to take Syria. That means war with the Turks.

Syria borders Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia. You can garrison all those provinces or just garrison Antioch and Syria. The choice is obvious.

I don't even build towers first and see what's in Syria. I just invade.

The next step is less obvious. Many players go on and wipe out the Turks. I garrison Antioch and Syria and wait a turn or two. There's a good chance the Turks will offer a ceasefire and then get into a war with the Byzantines. Ideally, The Turks will take Lesser Armenia. Then you can attack again, wipe them out and take Armenia, Rum, Edessa and Lesser Armenia, too.

Taking Lesser Armenia means war with the Byzantines at some point, but that's fine.

As for which units to build, desert archers will help you defeat Turkish horse archers. Bedouin camels are not fast enough to make an ideal counter to HA. However, they will do a number on bodyguard units and also tend to produce good generals and governors. At least that's my experience. They are also dirt cheap for the Egyptian faction. Nubian spears are a good early unit, excellent for garrisons, but watch their loyalty.

Egypt is blessed with many rich provinces, but have little means to defend them. Just about all your coastline is a glorious achievement goal for somebody's Crusade. So, the first order of business is to get two dhows built, one to cover the Nile Coast and the other the Eastern Mediterranean. Now you're safe from direct invasion by sea.

The second order of business is to get a spearmakers workshop somewhere so you can make Saracen Infantry. The combination of those and desert archers will do a real number on the rabble you usually get with the first wave of Crusades. Also, bonused Armenian Cavalry are great. You can build them in any one of three provinces, but only those from Armenia are bonused, so I build them all there.

Build up Syria for their double-bonused assassins. Fully upgraded Syrian assassins start out at five valor, so keep developing Syria.

Extend your navy northward, through the Black Sea. This prevents a back door Crusader landing in Georgia. Then extend your naval control out through the Ionian Sea and up into the Adriatic. This will give you rich trade. Antioch is a money tree once you have a trade network. Tripoli and Egypt are rich, too.

If you aren't at war with the Byzantines by now, start one. Always keep the most important goal in mind: Constantinople. All decent Byz units come from there. It's developed fortress is the key to getting a Grand Mosque relatively early. I always build the Grand Mosque there, even though the GA goals want it built in Egypt and bonused Nazari, who require a Grand Mosque, are from Syria. I'd rather have Nazari earlier than bonused. Be sure and take Georgia, of course.

Now you have a very nice empire that can be defend with three land choke-points: Constantinople, Georgia and Egypt.

Expanding along the North African coast at the expense of the Almohads is the next step. You can push all the way to Cordoba and still end up at a single choke-point.

War with Crusading factions is pretty much constant. You should have enough trade wealth to afford plenty of troops, though. Also, the movement programming of the Crusades means that French, English and German ones they simply must keep trying to march through Constantinople if you push other factions far enough back in North Africa. The option of a Crusade landing in Tunisia, for instance, won't exist as long as you own Tunisia and have fleets to defend it.

All this means that you will get to watch Crusades whither and die a lot.

Build a ribat and Jihad in every province. Jihads are very effective against rebellions. Seek out Jihads. They increase the influence of your ruler immensely and just about can't fail, since you can launch many of them against the same province at once. Also, consider putting mercenaries in them. You don't pay upkeep costs for mercs until the Jihad's over.

Then comes ....

THE GOLDEN HORDE

Fortify Georgia. You should have a citadel with improvements and a garrison by the time the Horde arrives.

You should also have, literally, dozens of Syrian assassins.

Using assassins against the Horde is considered extremely cheesy. Some players consider it a mild form of cheating, or at least unseemly.

However, it is very effective.

Be sure to delete your observations towers during the turn when the horde is visible but not yet in play. This makes Georgia a free range for assassins.

The last game I played as an Egyptian, the horde avoided Georgia for years. I was getting ready to attack them when they finally launched a weak attack. Still, I withdrew my superior force inside the citadel, declared multiple Jihads and wiped out the Horde as a faction in about three or four years.

Conquer Russia. The rest should be easy.

katank
05-11-2004, 22:44
I would immediately finish off the Turks and Byz but that's only my playing style.

getting the Byz to entangle themselves in the steppes is a good idea as they then leave Const. virtually unguarded.

Nizaris are awesome with one of highest attack/charge combos in the game and can outduel just about any missile unit.

however, their defense is trash so armor them up or you'll regret it.

spamming imams is very effective and makes your jihads really good.

silver armored ghazis in Const. are also almost a must if you want to use those crazies.

Doug-Thompson
05-12-2004, 02:39
Quote[/b] (katank @ May 11 2004,16:44)]spamming imams is very effective and makes your jihads really good.
You bet. That's another reason I go for a mosque in Constantinople rather than waiting for building projects in Egypt or Syria. Agree with the other points about armor for Nazaris and Ghazi's, too.

Ulair
05-12-2004, 15:58
Quote[/b] (katank @ May 11 2004,22:44)]silver armored ghazis in Const. are also almost a must if you want to use those crazies.

Hey, why wouldn't you? They are so much fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif - kinda like Saxon war dogs. Bring 'em forward, put 'em in a wedge and let 'em go http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif . But yeah, give 'em some armour for goodness sake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

katank
05-12-2004, 22:13
yep, I like to get some armor for them so more than scraps remain and I can make more V3-4 ones which are really nice esp. retrained.

only problem is their impetuous status.

they are far more so than christian knights.

one moment not watching them and they shoot out the woods to charge a unit of fresh katanks head on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif another brave but destroyed unit.

Ludens
05-17-2004, 17:51
Doug-Thompson, how do you deal with high valour kataphraktoi? I have seen the Romans placing four of those on my border and each and every one of them is capable of destroying everything I trow at them.

katank
05-17-2004, 22:49
I don't know about doug but I would say mobile troops like HAs

get merc Mtd. X-bows and or jinettes.

merc druzhina which become FFK can also help you nicely once they are pinned.

Pin with saracen inf and flanking with ghazis.

shoot a bit with DAs and you might take out a few.

my favorite though would be using naptha.

those grenades don't give a damn how much armor or how brave the men are, they just get blown away.

if you get off two good volleys, they should be dead.

Doug-Thompson
05-23-2004, 02:58
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ May 17 2004,11:51)]Doug-Thompson, how do you deal with high valour kataphraktoi? I have seen the Romans placing four of those on my border and each and every one of them is capable of destroying everything I trow at them.
Sorry for the tardy reply, Ludens. I've been out of town for several days.

Jedi katanks is exactly why I like to wait until the Byz have either had a war with the Turks or have expanded into Russia, spreading themselves thin.

arghy
06-11-2004, 12:51
heh hello i have been visiting this web site for months now never botherd to register hehe im more of single player person but i have started an egytian camp and as my sig says heh im getting slaughtered normal dificulty i had 4 groups of ghazis 2 sar infs. 4 pavise arbs 1 ghulam cav 2 sharan cav 1 ghulam body guard and some abyssian guard, as the battle started the enemy abandoned the high ground which i gladly took hopeing to thin there ranks with my arbs instead the retreated into the sparse woods in the valley and wouldent respond to my skirmishing saharans hehe this was the first time the AI was showing great strategies and frankly scared me to death haha i would never win battles if they all fought like that do i decided to flank them then smash in from 2 sides my sar inf. and abyssian guards and my ghulam cav took minor archery fire couple deaths smashed into byz inf 54 which perceded to slaughter all those units even with ghulam cavarly charging in from behind while this happened my ghazis charged there katanks in the woods- i expected a simple fight and a quick route 160 golden armored ghazis tend to do that... not a chance before my second unit of sar inf could get there 2 ghazis WERE TOTALLY GONE this is only 24 katanks no armor no weapon wasent a heir i send my prince in to reinforce my ghazis with arbs attempting to put them down in the end i lost all my ghazis which routed once enemy spear men charged down from the trees plz tell me how i can counter these god like katanks? the end result was 800 dead 124 killed the katanks killed 500 even http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

ah_dut
06-11-2004, 17:04
I am reliably informed (by myself being a byz player) that the byz have INCREDIBLE generals. Sorry mate but they can be valour 4 Staring. so at Val 4 they will kick you hard. Princes, please don't remind me of my VALOUR 30 katank Jedi who took on thousands and killed them all. so wait for the byz to spread out a bit. They have a lot of armour so mamluk horse archers work well, so do mamluk cav when they're exaughsted

katank
06-12-2004, 02:37
ok, intentionally rout your troops to lure them past your arbs.

I still say pin with saracens and use naptha or siege.

naptha or siege ignores armor entirely so a single it from a good grenade throw will kill the enemy katanks without much ado.

a single well thrown nade kills about a dozen and you really only need to kill the unit leader to make the enemy less jedi as that is the man who kills by far the most due to multiple lives.

BTW, Byz princes can easily start from v7 up. best I had was v10 out of the box.

arghy
06-12-2004, 11:49
heh route hasent yielded good results one time i attempted it with my english campaign.... it was pretty funny first the 2 closest units routed then whole army routed like an inversed pryimid was laughing so hard


ill try that next time i face them i have a lovely build up of 8 heirs and king on crete hehe i keep a strong fleet blocking ocean squares so they dont escape or attack me hehe if i cant deal with 24 katanks i dont even want to think of a full unit much less royal blood


and after i posted i made the mistake of sending my glorious army against the golden horde in georgeia once again the AI amazes me 6000 golden armored units GH has 2031 units in there instead of running they fight i was unprepared for an extended battle so i auto resolved 1050 dead 600 captured and 300 lost rest retreated into the castle sure enough 3 armys come to break the siege still barely numbers more then 2000 against my 5700 so i went with pavise arbs and ghazis and arab inf wanted speed to counter the CAs- NEVER DO THIS ghazis were not ment to fight cav and never ment to hold the line i had a insanly good postion very steep hill with 4 pavis arbs stretched out in 2 man ranks with some nizaris and desert archers behind them to add volume fire with ghazis behind them to lead the charge, sure enough i under estimate the speed of the GH cant get ghazis out in time 2 arbs get slammed head on by the CA soon relieved when ghazis come in numbers then i realize something.... ghazis suck donkey balls there great down hill advantage they kill about 3 CA and manage to all get slaughtered the battle gos on with me summoning half my reinenforcements before i simply get to angry and ESC out of the battle in disgust feeling let down by my inf

i am currently in 1361 and because my glorious army turned out to be cowards will take me 20 years to rebuild my army outta my selection for bread and butter units: sarc. inf muhadib spearmen abyssian guard nubian spear men, should i focus on cavarly? or merely switch tatics and build more mamuluk archers? heh in my experience with all the units the spear men seem to hold there own but only in down hill charges

katank
06-12-2004, 15:10
ok.

don't try and take the horde with gold armor.

gold armor doesn't make the units jedi. gold armor vanilla spears will still suck, except slightly less.

try focusing on buffed saracens to pin.

ghazis are never meant to be head to head sword inf.

pin with saracens and flank iwth ghazis.

ghazis have 6 charge, 5 attack with AP, -4 defense with 1 shield.

with gold armor, they still only have only 1 defense from armor and they'll die like flies.

they are fast so they can maneuver fast and flank/rear attack really easily.

don't ever try and counter their cav heavy armies with your own cav armies.

that is quite dumb as outhording and outcavin the mongols is impossible and will break your bank.

simply have mounds of saracens for an iron solid spear wall and use the ghazis on the flanks and piles and piles of arbs to take out the mongols using missiles.

also, if MHC are really a problem, once they get pinned, blow them up using naptha.

easiest way to take out very armored jedi cav is using naptha.

ah_dut
06-12-2004, 15:25
like I said in my elmo summary, naptha on knights amusing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

arghy
06-12-2004, 21:47
haha gonna make napthas a staple in my anti-horde army

wow i never knew ghazis werent anti sword inf


i fought the horde again with a great victory useing 2 arbs on a big slopeing hill with 4 cav units on the flanks worked like a charm with sarc inf pinning in place while ghulams charged in from the sides and rear heh my generals unit 19 ghulam cav killed 106 taken 236 lost 1 i was very happy with my turn around:) i also did a cutom battle with assorted jav units and spear men against katanks heh almost got it down http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

katank
06-12-2004, 23:20
ghazis have armor piercing attack and super charge but among the worst defense ever.

therefore, their speed and shock power basically means flankers/rear attackers r us.

charge em head on and they die like flies.

they are fire and forget missiles. expect them to take out most units you charge them at forntally but don't expect any to come back alive, at least not more than single digits however.

charge them head on against heavy cav and expect to take out maybe 20 heavy cav but to lose the whole unit.

ghazis aren't really counters for any thing and can be used with devastating effect if you can rear attack against armored units.

however, they are impetuous and can make knights look cautious.

they will sometimes rip out of a forest far before the ambush time and end up slamming head first into the enemy heavy cav in which case it's time to say bye bye to that unit and just be happy that you took out some.

RollingWave
06-13-2004, 16:52
katank you ever find the abyssian guard of any real use??? I can't seem to find much of a use for them... they seem to be a slower version of ghazi with worse moral and marginally better defense and controlable... but it just seems that ghazi general do the job better in most cases and abyssian routing more often is a huge pain....

ah_dut
06-13-2004, 17:04
abyssinian guards are useless buy Ghazi. they have SWISHER SWEETS defense and are more expensive than Ghazi save the cash
SOrry i'm not Katank

katank
06-13-2004, 18:09
not really.

never found abyssinians to be as much use as ghazis.

4 charge and 4 attack with AP isn't as good as 6, 5 with AP

I use swords as almost exclusively flankers etc so ghazis do a better job

for slugfest, abys would actually do better with total of 0 defense compared to -3 which is ghazis counting shields.

they are also disciplined vs. uncontrolled and are easier to manage than ghazis I suppose and I don't know about routing.

they have 6 morale vs. 8 for ghazis and aren't that suceptible to routing although less so than ghazis.

they do have uses but I use ghazis and rarely use abys.

However, I'll occasionally use abys for the egyptian flavor.

at least they are better than arab inf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

arghy
06-13-2004, 21:03
heh i was wondering same thing when i first saw the abys's i thought they would be unarmored vargians ha guess the huge axe makes em look neat cause even with down hill charge against vanilla spearmen they lost

my real problem is im running outta strike units sure spearmen are pretty nice but can count on them to break the enemy line ghazis are great for flanking but when the enemy has you flanked they cant be used properly

also about the camel warriors how much of a bonus do they have against horses? i thought the enemy would route when they charged in i know the turks HA had some trouble when they were being chased by them but so far katanks and knights rip my mounted peasants a new hole i've tryed flanking and rear charges it normaly overruns about 2-3 units then just stops dead i've seen enemy spear men pined between sarc inf and camel warriors the camels lost 22 and routed before the enemy did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

katank
06-13-2004, 23:00
ok, the camels get 2 attack, and 4 defense against horsies.

they get +1 in sandstorms and -1 temperate zones.

take them out of the desert and they lose much of their power.

however, they are capable of eating horsies alive in the desert, particularly tired armored knights in a sandstorm.

due to more defense bonus than attack, the camels actually don't shine all htat much when rear attacking knights as much as you would expect.

however, they can still be devastating though archer chasing isn't that great and against spears, camels are dead meat.

the idea is that you take out the enemy more cost-effectively.

the bedouin camels cost 125 a pop and sure are cheaper than those fancy knights.

also, they need castle level at least to produce knights while you can field your camels from a fort.

your mounted peasants can easily win a war of attrition so bring it on

let the mustard horde overrun everything.

I suggest you use AHC if you want actual cav.

v2 AHC from Armenia is quite doable and stronger than kwarzies or anything else.

slap on some armor and they can easily rival knights.

else, you can try my buffed saharan idea which works wonders too especially in the router count.

RollingWave
06-14-2004, 15:52
I find bedoiuns problem is usually more in moral than their actural effectiveness.... build up some mosque and other moral raising buildings in places where u want to buidl those camels and then lead them with better generals preferrably with vitrues that add to moral...

For their price... they still are quiet effective money wise vs almost all mounted units outside of the desert... they can be used to chase weaker types of archers (desrt.. vanilla archers ... maybe arbies..) but DO NOT try to use them against things like longbow and turcoman foot etc... 3 units of camel will still easily maul a fedual knigth as long as their moral doesn't break outside of the desert... and 3 of them cost less :P (125x3

Doug-Thompson
06-14-2004, 21:33
Re: Abyssinian Guards

The biggest problem with this unit is that their upkeep cost is outrageous. I don't remember how much it is, probably because it's too painful to remember.

The only time I ever get Abyssinian Guards is when I declare Jihad. I disband all of them as soon as the Jihad is over, before I have to pay the upkeep costs. I don't even keep good governor candidates. It's strictly a matter of price.

Re: Camels

They tend to produce a lot of good generals. Four and five stars come pretty regularly.

Egyptians get them at a discount, too.

Blodrast
06-14-2004, 21:53
well, ok, then what _do_ you use as a main head-on sword infantry when playing egyptians ?
i mean, saracens are excellent spears, and the fanatics are really only good (ok, very good) for flanking, but you obviously need some head-on killers (i.e. swords), not just spears and units that hold the line...

katank
06-14-2004, 23:22
ok, blodrast.

the idea is that you don't have headon killers for eggy.

Muslims are maneuverability based armies.

so get away from the idea of total slugfest.

the idea is finesse.

pin iwth saracens and flank with ghazis.

even when playing catholics, I almost never charge my maa head on.

I almost always flank.

saracens are identical to chiv sarges and are able to hold the line against most units long enough for others to flank.

if you want to win by charging your units head on, try playing catholic factions who can usually get huscarles in early if you take scandanavia and then CMAA later.

sword rush is quick but not cost effective.

Doug-Thompson
06-14-2004, 23:46
In addition to what katank said:

Faris and mameluke horse archers are made for killing fanatics and other such trash. A lot of people don't like horse archers, though, and for some good reasons. They don't suit everybody's taste or style. Still, they're the main type of new unit the Egyptians get in the high era.

Nizaris are difficult to get, but not too difficult if you take over Constantinople. That gets you close to your main building requirements.

Blodrast
06-15-2004, 01:42
@Doug-Thompson: i am not yet sure if HA suit my style or not, haven't used them enough to figure that out yet, but it does certainly seem interesting, and I've watched some of Sinan's replays, and was quite impressed. Of course I'll get slaughtered the first x times, and by that time I'll know whether I like to use them or not. I reckon you either love them or hate them and never use them.

@Katank: ok, I'm not _that_ WINSTIN FULL FLAVOR a tactician, to just throw units head-on, although I believe that meatshields are very useful now and then. If they can also do some damage, even better. So I wasn't really thinking in terms of a slugfest, but I guess you do have a point. Fighting with a Muslim faction then must involve a significantly higher degree of micromanagement, right ?
What are your choices if you decide NOT to go with HAs ?
(well, do you have a choice ? ;) )
(besides what you already mentioned, i.e. hold w/ saracens and flank with ghazi/abyssinian etc).
And what do you do vs infantry-based catholic armies ?
assume they have a decent number of archers, so you don't simply rule the field with your HAs, neither you or them have significant heavy cav, and they have lots of (pretty good) swords, probably some spears/pikes/polearms. I'm asking because one on one your troops are not as good as say, CMAA, and even if you field some half a dozen HAs, they won't do that much damage if the opponent does not stupidly break formation and starts following them around with infantry (which I find kinda feeble).

thanks

arghy
06-15-2004, 11:02
what i ment by sword inf is you cant always flank haha theres always gonna be a moment when your armys gonna be out numbered and have to engage on crappy terrain what i was looking for was a breaking inf ghazis are great im sure but they got slaughtered before doing enough dmg to split the enemy down the middle my tactics are always based around my missle troops on defense on offense its based on the nearest hill hehe

defense: normally line up pavise units if i got em with normal bows behind them so they are protected from annoying HA and still can rain death apon aproaching enemy units while strong charge and attack units line up behind them to run through the archers and hit the enemy while spearmen whack there flanks *note doesnt always work if the enemy has more units then you cant plug up all the holes and looks like al fariz is gonna have to put down his bow and start fighten haha but normally works well with my cavs spread out on my flanks, though i can never line them up for a proper flank without loseing charge bonus



ofense: my worst attribute haha i always aim for back breaking blows i.e. 3 prong ghazi attack through the gaps between spear men while cav charges 2 seconds behind em to hit the speamen when they turn to attack ghazis rear while my ranged units pepper there range units in hope of distracting them from pouring shafts into the melee also this plan NEVER WORKS its just a fantasy of my men listening to me and the AI doing stupid stuff my ghazis always get intercepted and just stand there fighting the front line in melee while cavs attempt to get around or sit there and get peppered by there 4+ units of ranged units which comp always seems to have my flanking units are always hit with cav and prolonged battle starts with normally high loss's 300 is acceptable to me hehe

also the aby upkeep... i have 1,286,834 florins year is 1364 hehe TRADE BABY TRADE thats what i focused on in early game before i wiped out enough factions to be on hate list of whole world hehe cept for my lovely danes who protect my northen provenices hehe if you keep the byzs alive and an ally antioch can make alotta money from trade clocked mine with top trade improvments and fleet that spanned all the seas cept for a few which i dident need(bastid spanish decided i to fight back when i wanted to place my summer palace in castille)

katank
06-15-2004, 14:35
ok, muslims units are whole different flavor.

I love HAs and find them an essential part of any muslim army I field.

believe it or not, even if they don't respond at first, they eventually do break ranks after 5-6 volleys and come chasing after you.

when there's enough space, put a HA between their main army and that unit.

by that time, that unit is doomed.

I just drag it away further and have 3-5 HAs in a circle surrounding it shooting and when it charges at one, I back that off.

I can safely do that as all my other HAs are precoocpuying the rest of the enemy army.

after that unit is down to about 1/4 strength, charge from all sides and that unit should die in instant attempted rout.

@arghy, there's no back breaking frontal attack for muslims as you learned the hard way.

maybe the turks can use the JHI to launch such an attack but eggy, no.

just use your missiles to their fullest and make the battles as long as possible.

even out of the desert, my troops are usually less armored and fatigue less than the enemy running around.

in the desert, the effect is even more pronounced.

I often maneuver until the half way point in a offensive battle until launching a real attack and never stop in a defensive one

this allows for fatigue to wear the enemy down and also your missiles to do their job.

watch for opportunity and maneuver.

playing muslim factions in later eras is far more interesting tactically than catholics.

katank
06-15-2004, 14:38
If you really don't want to use HAs and they have an inf heavy army that has decent missile cover but little heavy cav, may I recommend pumped up Saharans?

I find v2 saharans with some armor to be my medium cav of choice and they can actually rival ghulams with superior speed tipping things in their favor.

runa around with them until your get the enemy to spread out by feigning charges etc. and eventually you'll be able to pick off a few inadequately protected archers or charge into a vulnerable flank.

RollingWave
06-15-2004, 14:59
If you REALLY need to charge spears head on as eggies then abyssians aer probably ur best (though rather CAMEL TURKISH GOLD) choice...

If you really want to use swords while being a muslim... play elmos... they have by far the best swords in early and it's pretty much the most overall useful/efficient sword unit in the entire game (AUMs of course) the once from granada are better than FMAA and actuarlly around the same as CMAA but cheaper... and with lesser build req and being acquired earlier it's not hard to squeeze more bonus stuff on them...

Eggies are probably the worest muslim faction in early though:/ they get no special units in early while both turk and elmos get some really awsome once... and if you can't take syria ur gonig NOWHERE... in fact if you can't take syria right away I hardly see how you can survive even against that rather dumb AI with ur thin line and horrible infrastructure... while having 4 outta 6 province that's either tagged on everyone's jihad/crusade list and/or is a rich almost undefended lamb.

They are probably best in high ....

katank
06-15-2004, 17:21
the difficulty rating is way skewed. I have no idea why CA classified turks as hard while eggy are easy.

the eggy have to sack syria right away and then push on to destroy the turks but getting pushed into instant conflict with Byz isn't great.

eggy are less suited to fighting byz than turks due to lack of early HA.

they are sitting ducks.

Turks, on the other hand, have the kidnap sultan trick I posted in guides section and other nice strategic strikes like into trebizond and straight for Const.

arghy
06-16-2004, 06:15
i have just taken khazar from the GH believe me it wasent easy my glorious army 5000 strong was pushed back many times but once taken i have some of thos wonderful hv steppy cav hehe while weak with arrows they are strong in melee i've started useing my turk tactics hehe multiple HA asaulting from all sides while bulk of my army does useless manuvers distracting the AI hehe i have made great progress with this no matter how elite they are they will route if you caused them to split there formation many times then charge in tightly packed

mostly i've been haveing problems with enemy archers you have to watch your HA and make sure they dont couple together loose formation works well though they are still big targets hehe any way to counter this? no matter how many HAs i have the enemy alwats has more archers so i end up taking more loses then i inflict


also a good unit to help in battles is the serpentine hehe i have justed used it 3 times in battle it has GREAT range smashing enemy units and even killing kings and generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

katank
06-16-2004, 16:02
never fight archers using HAs.

instead, shoot at some inf on an extreme flank and the AI will either have that unit chase you or bring archers to support that unit.

then, use your mobility to run to the other extreme flank and shoot at your leisure since those archers are a lot slower than your HAs.

Doug-Thompson
06-16-2004, 17:28
EARLY ERA EGYPTIANS

1. Opening moves
Invade Syria on the first turn with everything you can, leaving garrisons in only Antioch and Egypt.
After that, many players wipe out the Turks immediately. I garrison Antioch and Syria and wait a turn or two. There is a good chance the Turks will offer a ceasefire and then get into a war with the Byzantines. Then you can attack again and wipe them out with less trouble.

2. Units to train
Desert archers will help you defeat Turkish horse archers, and are a good unit throughout the early era.
Bedouin camels are not fast enough to make an ideal counter to horse archers. However, they will destroy bodyguard knights. Bedouin Camel Warriors also tend to be good generals and governors. Egypt gets a discount on camels, too.
Nubian spears are a good early unit, excellent for garrisons, but watch their loyalty.

3. Early building
Every province on the Middle Eastern coastline except the Sinai is a glorious achievement goal for someone's Crusade. Therefore, the first order of business is to get the facilities to make dhows, and then build two. One should cover the Nile Coast and the other the Eastern Mediterranean. This cuts off direct invasion by sea.
The second order of business is to get a spear-maker’s workshop somewhere to make Saracen Infantry. The combination of those and desert archers are extremely effective on the rabble in the first wave of Crusades.
Use Armenia to produce Armenian Heavy Cavalry with a bonus. Build up Syria for their assassins. The two-star bonus there makes these assassins extremely effective.

4. The Navy
Extend your navy northward, through the Black Sea. This prevents a back door Crusader landing in Georgia. Then go to the Ionian Sea and up into the Adriatic. This trade route is not dependent on the Byzantines. Antioch is a money tree once a trade network comes to life. Tripoli and Egypt are rich, too.
If you are not at war with the Byzantines by now, start one. Always keep the most important goal in mind: Constantinople. Constantinople’s developed fortress is the key to getting a Grand Mosque for Imans and Nizari. I always build the Grand Mosque there, even though the glorious achievement goals want it built in Egypt. Be sure to take Georgia and fortify it, of course.
Now you have a very nice empire, defended with three land chokepoints: Constantinople, Georgia and Egypt. Expand along the North African coast at the expense of the Almohads. You can push all the way to Cordoba and still end up at a single chokepoint.

5. Crusades
War with Crusades is constant. You should have enough trade wealth to afford plenty of troops, though. Most of the early Crusades will consist of rabble such as fanatics and other unarmored units. These are very vulnerable to desert archers.
The movement programming of the Crusades means that French, English and German ones must keep trying to march through Constantinople if you push other factions far enough back in North Africa. The option of a Crusade landing in Cyrencia, for instance, will not exist as long as you own Cyrencia and have fleets to defend it. The Spanish could Crusade through North Africa, so keep a sizable army there.
Your goal is not to beat Crusades in a fair fight, not unless the odds are extremely favorable. Your goal is to corner them and have them die slowly. The enemy faction cannot launch another Crusade while its first one is dying, not unless the Pope gives a special call.
If you own Constantinople, you simply block Crusades with a large army. If your are not in Constantinople yet, the goal is to keep your armies in front of the Crusaders and to block them, keeping the restrictive movement rules for Crusades in mind.

6. Jihads
Build a ribat, which provides a good morale boost, and a Jihad in every province. Jihads are very effective, particularly in rebellions and civil wars.
That gets us out of the Early Era. Keep fortifying Georgia during this time, for the Golden Horde is coming. Also, build with Faris and Mamelukes in mind.

katank
06-16-2004, 23:50
suggestions: wipe out Turks ASAP.

then, use inn in Palestine for some mercs and strike at Const. through Trebizond.

hit the Byz very early as every turn you delay, you risk having another deadly Byz inf coming out.

Isolate the emperor in either Bulgaria/Greece, Anatolia/Nicea/Lesser Armenia, Georgia/Khazar/Crimea and try to ransom him.

My best time ever was him getting ransomed from bulgaria/greece to Georgia and from there to Crimea, which they invaded even while I was pushing them hard in Const.

Khazar was still rebel.

I bribed Khazar from the ransom moola and hit Crimea and got him into Asia Minor and ended with him ransomed off into the islands.

that's a whole 4 times and he was worth 11k each time. Combined with a push from Syria to Rum and hit of Armenia, I had a total of 5 ransoms of royals and this helped my treasury and subsequent development greatly.

I used Const. to build a quick fleets and sank the Byz ones and made him my captive trading partner.

I modded in non-unique grand mosques and thus could spam Imams and Nizaris quickly from Const. while also building one in Egypt to satisfy the GA goal and another one in Syria to take advantage of valo bonus for Nizaris.

To complement Doug's units:

Armenian Heavy Cavalry, otherwise known as AHC, best heavy cav for you early on. With master horse in Armenia, they have are v2, giving them 5 attack, 6 defense which is better than vanilla chivalric knights. This is doable in 22 years starting from scratch. Add some armor and these boys will chew up any thing. Chivalrics in early

Ghulam Cavalry: what not to build. Lesser Armenia has a valor bonus for those but why bother? they are worse than AHC in stats, take longer to build to get to v2, and cost more upkeep which makes them more expensive in the long run.

Kwarzimian Cav: same story. this one can't even get to v2 due to reqs for master spear and master horse as well as no region bonuses. it costs more out of the box and far more upkeep. So why bother when you have AHC?

Ghazis: great when you get them from Const. since you can get silver armor for them. mosque is necessary for Grand mosque and sword and armor you should capture intact. crank some out and be amazed that some actually survive

Nizaris: awesome missile unit capable of outdueling just about any missiles except for turcoman foot but the turks are dead so they are the best shooters now. They also have 7 charge and 6 attack which makes for highest attack of any unit and a killer charge. charge into some flanks or rear for an instant rout

Saracens: crank them mucho as they are equivalents of chiv sarges except available in early and lower reqs. use them as your spear wall for pinning while ghazis flank.

my typical army for eggy out of desert consists of saracens, ghazis, AHC, and DAs (later on Nizaris).

for the deserts, nubians/muwahids, ghazis, buffed saharan cav, DAs or Nizaris.

ah_dut
06-17-2004, 19:18
Good stuff as usual Doug and Katank

Mightypeon
06-28-2004, 16:58
I have made the experience that Eggy is actually able to outcav the horde using hordes of Camels.
Back them up with AHC for Archer chasing (GH foots Archers read poetry to Camels) and you can have a lot of fun.

ah_dut
06-28-2004, 17:11
eeek, it's a bit difficult. the horse archers can make mincemeat of you and some of the horde freaks are none too bad either cough*mhc* they aren't that great but they can have thousands of them.

Doug-Thompson
06-28-2004, 23:08
Quote[/b] (Mightypeon @ June 28 2004,10:58)]I have made the experience that Eggy is actually able to outcav the horde using hordes of Camels.
I've done this and it is a lot of fun, but man it was a bloody battle. I didn't face the full force of the horde, either. They invaded Syria and I was ready for them. The desert terrain and some timely sandstorms -- which hurt their HA and Mongol Warriors -- came in handy.

The morale of my camels teetered on the brink of rout the whole time. If I'd lost a general, or had a lower-valor one, I'd have lost.

Now I prefer to fight the horde with some 2-valor Mameluke cavalry from Egypt and 2-valor Mameluke HA from the Sinai. Throw in some silver-plated Nizari from Constantinople and the highest-valor camels available.

2V Mam cav trumps Golden Horde HC
2V Mam HA trumps GH-HA (although the horde's HA are faster.)
Nizari are faster than GH Warriors and can run them down.

ah_dut
06-29-2004, 15:29
you're still outnumbered usually, doug

Doug-Thompson
06-29-2004, 17:04
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ June 29 2004,09:29)]you're still outnumbered usually, doug
Only if you take the full force of the Golden Horde in the opening move. I never do. Fighting huge battles with the horde is fun -- such huge battles are the reason for playing this game for many people. However, I never fight fair. Fight no battle you are not certain of winning, as Mao put it.

I put a fortress in Georgia and fill it with desert archers who have been replaced by Nizari in my field armies. The Horde passes me by and attacks my enemies in Russia, most times.

The combination of control of the sea, multiple Jihads, bonused Mamelukes and droves of 4- and 5-star Syrian assassins gives the horde quite a welcome when they come to Georgia.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

ah_dut
06-30-2004, 17:18
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ June 29 2004,11:04)]
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ June 29 2004,09:29)]you're still outnumbered usually, doug
Only if you take the full force of the Golden Horde in the opening move. I never do. Fighting huge battles with the horde is fun -- such huge battles are the reason for playing this game for many people. However, I never fight fair. Fight no battle you are not certain of winning, as Mao put it.

I put a fortress in Georgia and fill it with desert archers who have been replaced by Nizari in my field armies. The Horde passes me by and attacks my enemies in Russia, most times.

The combination of control of the sea, multiple Jihads, bonused Mamelukes and droves of 4- and 5-star Syrian assassins gives the horde quite a welcome when they come to Georgia.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
damn why are you people always right?

katank
07-02-2004, 22:08
After you beat them repeatedly in straight fights which is usually actually castle defense or bridge defense, you'll probably end up wanting to have a little fun like jihad spam (outnumbering them) or agents since fighting it out wouldn't be that much fun any more.

Once, I cranked jihad markers for about 50 years in Const. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

ah_dut
07-06-2004, 22:33
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 02 2004,16:08)]After you beat them repeatedly in straight fights which is usually actually castle defense or bridge defense, you'll probably end up wanting to have a little fun like jihad spam (outnumbering them) or agents since fighting it out wouldn't be that much fun any more.

Once, I cranked jihad markers for about 50 years in Const. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
aah.. the old jihad spam trick... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Doug-Thompson
07-07-2004, 15:37
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 06 2004,16:33)]
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 02 2004,16:08)]After you beat them repeatedly in straight fights which is usually actually castle defense or bridge defense, you'll probably end up wanting to have a little fun like jihad spam (outnumbering them) or agents since fighting it out wouldn't be that much fun any more.

Once, I cranked jihad markers for about 50 years in Const. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
aah.. the old jihad spam trick... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Jihad spamming makes a well-handled Muslim faction virtually unbeatable by the early 1200's.

katank
07-07-2004, 16:48
ever so true.

but what if an earthquake or something destroys the ribat?

I was so glad to vanquish the mongols without the earthquake thing happening.

cheap? perhaps. effective? hell yeah

massed jihads can pound Mongols, Papal resuregences etc. all to a pulp.

RollingWave
07-07-2004, 20:38
Just do what everyone else do and mass arby and hide behind a hoard of spears :P .........

seriously though... fighting the mongols with the turks without using jihad spam is probably the hardest due to no arbs (and that they are very likely to land in armenia... a province you can't give up)... you have serious problem with their reinforcement as your raerly able to keep ur arrows going for that long .... several time i had to hide in the trees letting them pound me with endless arrows and fight off the occasional heavy cav charge and wait till the timer ran out... those were... tt.... but prbably closer to a real challange and real battle....

If you want some real fun... fight them in a non/bridge/desert map and do it with no archers and just mass infantry things like abyssian guards and maybe some saracen or nerubian spears:P hide in the trees forever and pray ur moral doesn't break.....

katank
07-07-2004, 21:28
that's suicide.

mass arb in front of armored saracens who'll cover their ass from MHC.

that's the way to go.

shoot em all down in cold blood.

some nizaris can also be good for pure missile dueling and then flanking.

yay 2000th post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-balloon.gif

RollingWave
07-08-2004, 04:19
It can work katank :P (espically in armenia where u can find a high ground advantanage AND woods) just that u'll surely take huge casulaties and u'll have to constantly deal with ur own urge to charge out of the woods and die a horrible death :P between the high ground and the woods horse archer's don't do THAT much damage to you (and you could go into loose formation..) .... and in the woods heavy cavs are considerablly less effective so a mix of spear and anti armor guys will slaughter them...

However.. having to pay constant attention and watch for heavy cav rush for 120 min or more while they rain death on you is ..... errrrr......... challengin... XD

katank
07-08-2004, 17:15
I would just go insane.

I often arrange my battle lines for the perfect tactical maneuvers and when seeing the vacillating little AI prance around like an idiot, impulsively charge my entire army at them.

looks suicidal but I usually win those http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif just not with the kill ratios I'd like.

Doug-Thompson
07-09-2004, 22:01
The Egyptians get a 25-percent discount on Bedouins. They're 94 florins for a 40-man unit. Also, Egypt starts will all the Bedouin-producing provinces: Egypt, Arabia and the Siani.

The point about boosting their morale is very true. Use them often and keep any who get valor, too. High-valor camels are priceless throughout the game.

katank
07-09-2004, 22:02
I think Syria can also produce them

Doug-Thompson
07-10-2004, 03:14
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 09 2004,16:02)]I think Syria can also produce them
Oops. You are correct. And Syria.

RollingWave
07-10-2004, 21:46
I tried abyssian guards a bit more today.... they are pretty decent acturally if you don't consider their rigged upkeep..... their damage is slightly less than ghazi on paper but since more of them would be likely to be acturally alive and wacking the difference is minimal while they do survive MUCH MUCH better than ghazi.... (4 point difference in defense does add up to a lot....) i had a pack of mongol heavy cav charged into the back of one group of my abyssian (although i send some spear to help him out within a few seconds....) i was still quiet surprised that the abyssian only lost about 2 guys from the charge.... (they had silver armor though i think)

Another note.... fighting the hoard is ridiculasly frustrating when it's 2000 men vs 3000 things like that -_-.... i had 3000 land in georgia and armenia (i purposely let the byz have the stepps so i don't have to take the full blunt) but stil... the fight in georgia went on for a whole freaken hour if not more (well i pause a lot yes... but if u don't do that vs so many horse archer/heavy cav ur formation will break real fast....) then i realize i have ANOTHER such fight in armenia and just decided to auto solve (good thing it was lead by a 8 star 9 dread general there :P :P :P)

katank
07-12-2004, 01:42
their charge and attack are both weaker than ghazis.

I frankly use ghazis to flank.

if you ask the unit to get charged in the rear, ghazis aren't for you.

ghazis are more powerful but require better tactics.

MadKow
07-14-2004, 17:12
My first ever encounter with the horde was with the turks, in Armenia. By then i had half a dozen of JHI, and Saracens. I had to keep them in the woods at all times but i did won that battle. Abyssinian guards might pull it off, i imagine, in bigger numbers and with even more casualties.

On the other hand, as turk i had no arbs...

But i never did an Egypt campaign. My next project, thats why i'm browsing around here.

katank
07-14-2004, 20:35
abyss guards aren't slugfest units but can do well in forests I suppose.

they don't have much armor though and might get shot up even in the trees

BalkanTourist
07-15-2004, 03:49
This is off topic, but katank you go over 200 post in a week I thought life in NY was a little more fast paced? When do you have all this time? I read posts every night but I don't have a lot of time between working and playing the game.

katank
07-15-2004, 03:57
dude, they call it the city that never sleeps for a reason.

welcome to the life of an insane insomniac.

BalkanTourist
07-15-2004, 04:00
Love the city I want to move there whenever I can afford it https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

katank
07-16-2004, 16:29
nice...

interesting if people can found like TW clubs throughout the country. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

LAN party https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-balloon.gif

Doug-Thompson
07-16-2004, 23:38
Quote[/b] (RollingWave @ July 10 2004,15:46)]I tried abyssian guards a bit more today.... they are pretty decent acturally if you don't consider their rigged upkeep.....


That's a pretty hefty thing to never consider, though. You can train a new Ghazi for the cost of upkeep on one Abyssinian Guard.

katank
07-17-2004, 00:15
so true.

turkish ghazis are even cheaper.

they have no access to abyss guards but it's not a great loss.

KhaderKhan
10-18-2005, 16:33
ok, muslims units are whole different flavor.

watch for opportunity and maneuver.

I would also add ambush if the terrain permits, mind if I make a quick suggestion? Why don't you set up a quick ABC guide to tactics for Muslim factions? Am sure they'll be plenty (especially newbies) of posters who would find it extremly usefull....

Tsavong
01-07-2006, 21:53
i would find it very usefull.

Ravenloch
01-23-2006, 03:10
I too....currently in campaign as Egyptian...have the Byz king pinned on malta. The Golden Horde running from me...and now my biggest threats are Spain and Poland.:wall:

Umbramortii
02-08-2006, 22:30
Hmmm... I dunno. While Abyssinian Guard are more expensive than Ghazi, I find that Ghazi simply can't last in prolonged battles... After one, two or at most three charges against enemy elites, they will be at less than half-strength. Abyssinian Guard are almost as good in flank attacks but seem to last a lot longer.

In a long battle with > 1000 troops on both sides I keep having to withdraw Ghazi units from the battlefield and bring in fresh ones, whereas I can usually keep Abyssinian Guard for nearly the entire battle.

Plus there is the hassle of constantly sending decimated Ghazi back from the frontlines to replenish them.

Asmodai
02-10-2006, 11:48
You must choose, what unit suits you better.

Abysinians have better staying power than ghazis. But ghazis can potentialy cause more damage, but they are extremely vulnerable and they get buthered sooner or later. Treat the ghazis as living bomb, or fanatical mob of suiciders. (they in fact are the fanatical suiciders)

rvg
05-15-2006, 19:17
I find Abyssinians to be invaluable. In fact, they form the backbone of my army from High on. Abyssinians with Silver/Gold armor are very durable and have a pretty good survivability.
Ghazis are awesome when used as flankers, but if attacked even from the front, they literally evaporate on contact. In Early, a Nubian/Ghazi combo works out reasonably well, but from High on I find myself using mostly Abyssinians, with Nizaris doing the flanking. I find that by the time of the High Era upkeep is simply a non-issue.

greywolf
05-18-2006, 06:02
hey, i played mtw for three years and i''ve just stopped this year to try out rtw. i always hear about re-training units in mtw. is this really possible? if so, how do you do it? in rtw its been made very easy since there is a retain option in the interface. i hope you can answer this question since i've always wondered about it.

Joshwa
05-18-2006, 08:27
Move the unit to a proivince that has the capacity to train the troop type you want to retrain. Open the unit production box and drag the unit from the battle map into a production slot

greywolf
05-18-2006, 09:21
wow! that simple huh? imagine playing for three years and having to disband decimated units only to recruit a brand new one! well, that's what you get when you don't read the guides. thank you very much for the info.

hmmm...now i suddenly have this itch to go back to mtw.

KhaderKhan
10-26-2006, 13:43
Horse archers are a must, provided you know how to use them, in any Muslim faction army. Although you are required to micromanage (they get mauled easily) them they can once you are familiar with how they should be used they can become one of your most efficient units in your army.

E.g. Whilst playing the Turks I was repeatedly invaded by Crusading forces 2-3X larger then my army. The Horse Archers alone (I didn't even need to use my JHI!) killed 300-400+ troops and captured 100-200+ troops, the ransom money was phenomenal.

Not only that they're also perfect for (setting) ambushes.

Don Esteban
01-18-2007, 13:52
You must choose, what unit suits you better.

Abysinians have better staying power than ghazis. But ghazis can potentialy cause more damage, but they are extremely vulnerable and they get buthered sooner or later. Treat the ghazis as living bomb, or fanatical mob of suiciders. (they in fact are the fanatical suiciders)


I rather like using Ghazis to take out archers, their extra spped lets them catch retreating skirmish units and then rips them to pieces once they connect. If they can approach under cover of some trees then better still. Abysinians on the other hand can break through a defensive line with far lower casualties than Ghazis.

both good

caravel
01-19-2007, 17:19
IIRC Abyssinians don't quite have the Ghazis charge bonus or charge speed, but they do have better defense stats, so can melee quite well. Ghazis are pure flankers and are hopeless in melee. The best HA's for the Egyptians are the Faris, they better than the Mamluks.

Agent Miles
01-24-2007, 19:41
Normally, Faris would be better, but you can get valour 2 Mamluk HA's in the Sinai (province bonus) with a Master Horse Breeder, which beat even valour 1 Faris.

caravel
01-30-2007, 10:58
Mamluk Horse Archers:

Charge: 2
Melee: 3
Defense: 2
Armour: 3
Morale: 4
Dismount: Desert Archers
Requires: Castle, Bowyers Guild Horse Breeders' Guild
Available: High/Late
Valour Bonus: Sinai

Faris:

Charge: 4
Melee: 3
Defense: 2
Armour: 3
Morale: 4
Dismount: Dismounted Faris
Requires: Castle, Horse Breeder, Swordsmiths' Workshop, Bowyers Workshop.
Available: Late/Early
Valour Bonus: None

Otherwise pretty much identical.

The main differences are the dismount type and the charge. The Faris' superior charge is the key. A 2 point charge bonus is the standard horse archer/turcoman etc charge bonus. A 4 point charge bonus makes the Fari more useful. The Dismounted Faris are also a respectable unit.

Agent Miles
01-30-2007, 15:31
If you use Yas' comparison tool it looks like this:
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/EgyptianCav/?action=view&current=Farisattack.jpg

You can check it yourself at:
http://totalwar.co.kr/medieval/indexx.html

caravel
01-31-2007, 17:24
No doubt about it that with the +2 valour bonus from the Master Horsebreeder, the Mamluk Horse Archers are better in melee. The Faris would be better in the charge however and is available earlier. I prefer my cavalry to have a strong charge above all else. If they're pure horse archers that's not so important, and as pure horse archers the Mamluks win hands down, due to the higher starting valour, but we're not talking about simple horse archers in this case. More so their abilities to function as cavalry in the cavalry sense. Unlike defense, morale and melee, the charge bonus is not increased by valour, so no matter what general you put above them, they'll still have that 2 point charge bonus. The Faris, not being elite IIRC, also gain valour more quickly.

-Edit: No I'm pretty sure faris are elite in fact, so forget that last point.

-Edit2: The point I'm trying to make is that there is probably a better unit to throw into melee, once it's missiles are out, than a Mamluk Horse Archer. Faris IMHO would be a better choice due to the superior charge bonus. Valour can be obtained later.

:bow:

Agent Miles
01-31-2007, 19:50
Good point. I guess if you built Faris in Early, you could get them up to valour 2 (or better) by High, when Mamluk HA's became available. V2 Faris beat V2 MHA's.
I just can't bring myself to lead a charge of 'fairies'.:laugh4:

seireikhaan
02-17-2007, 00:06
Personally, I prefer to leave the Bizzies after I conquer the Turks so that they can deal with the horde. Then, when the two have worn each other down, I use the massive trade funds to blow apart the bizz with more advanced units (ie-Nizaris, faris). While I wait for that I usually conquer some Almo provinces to get some breathing room for Egypt. As for the units, I personally prefer Abysians to Gazis, I usually have so much money w/ Egypt that costs really don't matter much. I like that they listen to orders all the time and don't get themselves slaughtered just because they were so eager to get at the enemy that they charged Katanks head on instead of waiting for a full flank. I prefer Faris to MHA because I can mass produce one valor Faris, whereas there is only one province for two valor MHA. Also, I'm big on the charge bonus for my cavalry, Faris make pretty good flankers once you are done using them to wear down the enemy.

vonsch
02-17-2007, 18:27
I just came back to MTW (orgered MTW2, but not sure it's gonna run on my top system which I can't afford to upgrade).

Played Danes a bit, and England, but then switch to Egypt. Running XL too, so it's not out-of-the-box.

I took Syria turn 2, and Meso turn 4 or 5. Managed to throw Turks into rebellions (which helped Byzzies and Armenians grab a Turkish proince each). So I picked off Edessa once the rebels took out the Turks and then arranged a cease fire. Think I will mostly turtle now.

I have 4 full stacks armies, 4 Berber Camels, 4 desert archers, 4 Nubians and 2 UMs with 3*, 4*, 4*, 6* generals, but I am a wee bit intimidated by those top Byzzie and Armenian units. If they come to me, I can handle them in the deserts where camels are in their own element (and heavy armor isn't!), I think. If I go after them, I suspect it's gonna be massively bloody. That said, about to push my fleet into the Aegean (had some losses to the Turks) to keep an eye on the backdoor into Constantinople. If I can backstab my Byzzie allies with a good shot at grabbing that, I will. But leaving them as buffer to horde is appealing too.

Meanwhile Cyr is next. Rebellion there. Waiting for rebels to starve out Almo garrison. Almo's at war with Spain (of course), so backway up coast should be relatively open still. Until the crusades start. Need to be ready. Love to grab the whole north coast though.

Trying to convert Rhodes too. Saw the taxes are at low and loyalty is at 126. Dunno if I can convert enough fast enough to do much, but it's worth a shot. If Byzzies suffer a rebellion or civil war, having a lot of converts will probably guarantee it flips.

XL sure changes the economy. Trade barely paying for itself, but the farming is better. Treasury increasing a decent amount at the moment despite heavy building.

Question: How can I drop loyalty in Arabia? Trying to use it as training ground for heirs but it's hanging at 104 loyalty on very high taxes. Will a really BAD governor help? (I have it unassigned and with no buildings at all at present.) My king's stats went up and nudged it into the safe range even with nothing there to boost loyalty. I got two whole rebellions before it settled down.

Deus ret.
02-18-2007, 14:32
Nice campaign so far, vonsch!


Question: How can I drop loyalty in Arabia? Trying to use it as training ground for heirs but it's hanging at 104 loyalty on very high taxes. Will a really BAD governor help? (I have it unassigned and with no buildings at all at present.)
try to find someone with many happiness-affecting traits (of course negative ones), like greediness, unhinged loon et al. those will greatly affect loyalty and should provide the wished-for rebellions....
it may take a while for the traits to develop accordingly, though, so you might have to wait a little....

vonsch
02-18-2007, 17:46
Thanks, Deus. Couldn't remember if there was anything other than V&V on leaders to drop own loyalty in a province.

The Elmos didn't cooperate, they sent in a force to lift the seige in Cyr, so I just declared war. The Turk front remains stagnant with me, though the Byzies have taken another Turk province. I think they are down to one. I don't want to draw Byz attention to myself so not playing there. Artmenia is turtling in the middle (I'm allied with them),

Instead I rolled up the whole African coast. Was a lot easier than I expected. Never sent reinforcements to my army, just garrisons. Captured the Moroccan Keep or Castle without a seige! They have a fleet in the strait, so suspect they withdrew to Cordoba or Granada. Since this is XL, no land bridge there. Leon-Castille has the Elmos tied up in a war which they are slowly losing too.

Rhodes is up to almost 40% Muslim, so have hopes it will start getting unruly soon. Need something to throw the Byzies into turmoil. Those large stacks headed by skillion star heirs are scary. I have just my one great starting general parked in Meso with an anti-cav stack. Other than that it's middlin ones in the 3-4 range. All those Elmo retreats along the African coast didn't help that heir much. Sure helping the treasury though! Those are rich (aside from Cyr).

Starting to see the Crusader spies now. So have Syrian boys in all the target provinces to keep them uninformed and dead. By spies I mean emmisaries. :smash: Not many spies or assassins getting caught so far there. The Byzies keep sending emmisaries and princesses down to park in the borders... well, they did. They are mighty short of princesses now.

Arabia may not be worth the trouble as a training province. The current rebel spawn (king died, got a small downward tic that rebelled it) is a high quality heavy cav and some trash, so going to bribe that one. Forgot it's also a homeland objective which means I lose points if I forget to control it during a check year.

I'd use Cyr for training, except that risks breaking my LOC to the western coast. Sea lanes are so brittle. It's hard to find a good high rebellion, low value province (Scotland aside!) to use. And Scotland highlanders aren't pushovers. And it's too far from Cairo for this game. Portugal would work except it's pretty valuable. May end up using it though, since can't build caravels. Taking Iberia would mean loads of iron provinces too.

Deus ret.
02-18-2007, 21:45
Rhodes is up to almost 40% Muslim, so have hopes it will start getting unruly soon. Need something to throw the Byzies into turmoil.

Deploy spies there, the more the better...a whole army of spies (provided they don't have a border fort there)! Spies are much better than anything else at inticing rebellions.

As for the taking down part, the Byz are hard to come by in Early once they start rolling so I'm afraid you'll have to wait for a really good opportunity. Like when their, preferably newly ascended, emperor is isolated on a small island and you start the war by sinking their fleet (or blockading him at the very least). Depending on the Byz' average garrison, chances are some provinces will start rebelling; additionally, most AI factions seem to dislike the Eastern Romans and will maybe join a war against them. The Armenians should be in for that as they have proven to be nasty little backstabbers almost every time I had to deal with them.

If it all doesn't work out then...well, it may get hairy! Lure their heavily armored armies into the desert where they will fall prey to your light troops, especially the kats. Ghazis on a flank charge are damn effective against them.

vonsch
02-18-2007, 22:55
The Serbs decided they wanted North Africa. I disabused them of that, though it was bloody. Still, I was using cheap troops and I can afford the losses anyway.

Can't quite make spies yet. Syria or Egypt could build the alehouse, but Syria is pumping out assassins to ward off the Crusade scouts and Egypt remains my only top line ship and unit producer. Another decade or so should see a change there. Lots of castles about done. Rhodes is above 60% muslim. Still not drop in loyalty though, so suspect it's gonna take spies for the trigger. At least it will be easy to pacify. :laugh4:

It's 1133, and the Byzies agreed to an alliance again, so hoping to keep them calm. Trying to start army upgrades now: ghazi inf, saracen inf., faris, and some armor upgrades to move north... or hook left up into Iberia. Waiting to see if the Byzies move before I decide.

The Wandering Scholar
02-12-2008, 13:54
I have just started my first Medieval campaign as Egypt seeing asthough it said they were easy to play :). early days yet, nothing has much has happened. I have secured an alliance with the turks, not sure how reliable that will be (I may be too used to Rome)

I have built ports, farming and keeps in as much provinces as I can And I am building up a military. Should my firt moves be to the Byzantines or across africa? Will the Turks help against the Byzantines?

Martok
02-12-2008, 18:50
I have just started my first Medieval campaign as Egypt seeing asthough it said they were easy to play :). early days yet, nothing has much has happened. I have secured an alliance with the turks, not sure how reliable that will be (I may be too used to Rome)

I have built ports, farming and keeps in as much provinces as I can And I am building up a military. Should my firt moves be to the Byzantines or across africa? Will the Turks help against the Byzantines?

The Turks will almost certainly turn on you sooner or later. I learned a long time ago to take them out before I go after anyone else. :yes: They might assist you against the Byz, but it's usually only a matter of time before they backstab you.

I would try to get out of the alliance if possible, which in the Eggies' case might mean you'll have to forge a (temporary) alliance with the Byzantines themselves -- they'll be at war with the Turks eventually, which means you can then drop the latter as your allies. It's maybe not a very "Muslim" thing to do, but you'll probably find it to be necessary. :sweatdrop:

The Wandering Scholar
02-12-2008, 22:58
hmm ok. Thanks

Caerfanan
02-27-2008, 12:11
As the Egyptians, you can "choose" your bacstabb:
1/ Either you ally with the almohads which will probably get quickly stuck in a war agaisnt Spain, Aragon and various crusades... And you bacstabb your low province number Turkish neighbour who certainly has started a war agains the byz, and then secure all "Turkey" from Constantinople to Georgia.
2/ Or you ally with the Turks and do a very quick west expansion up to Morocco against the almohads, for as Martok said, the turks wil get in a war with the byz but will not necessarily take long before attacking you as well.

Depending on the time period, ytou might have to first of all kick the frenc out of Antioche, Tripoli and sink their boats, to let them rot in cyprus.

The byzantine tend to be repelled to Rhodes in the middle period (high?) So they could be a good commercial and innofensive partenr for a while.

caravel
03-03-2008, 23:03
Early on: As the Egyptians I tend to to take Cyrenacia from the Almohads early and then move against the Turks. I take Cyrenacia as a buffer zone to protect Egypt. This way if I end up with Spanish, Sicilian or Italian neighbours, their first invasion by land will not be against Egypt itself and if Cyrenacia falls I can respond by sending in a relief force from Egypt or even Palestine by sea. The Turks are your easiest victims and it is wise to work on them next. Syria is the obvious first target and taking this strengthens your position by reducing your borders to two provinces to the north.

It is then wise to prepare an all out attack on Rum if you want to seriously cripple the Turks. The thing to remember is that this region is not easy to defend and that you will only be reasonably secure when you have conquered as far as Georgia, Trebizond and Anatolia. This will bring you into conflict with the Byzantine and it is best to avoid this for a while.

In terms of unit training, the Bedouin Camels are your best bet, backed up with some Arab Infantry and the all important backbone force of Nubian Spearmen and Desert Archers. Saharan cavalry are ok for mopping up routers but don't overspend on them. Once you take Rum you will be able to train the Armenian Heavy Cavalry which will fit the bill nicely.

The Egyptians are an extremely strong faction economically with some of the best trade in the region (in fact I think Antioch may be the highest income province on the map once it gets trading). This is their main advantage.

gollum
02-16-2010, 19:14
Its not just the money they make though - they have a nice roster, if a bit lacking in terms of melee power, but without any overpowered units. They also have nice GA goals, particularly if one turtles with them, like the Jihad for Asia.