We Need Another Room [Archive]

dessa14

05-04-2004, 11:03

things like politics are not what i consider conversation topics in my house.
i like to talk about sport, music, art, literature....
not politics, what happened to this poor guys factory, or the growing number of run over pedestrians.

it may be different for others, but i believe political opinion are something to save for political party meetings and private conversations between freinds with obvious similar political opinions, not for outrageous public debate.

thanks, dessa

p.s: i was here when that linked thread higher up on the page was made, and i believe it was too early for the split to happen back then, softer threads could survive back in those days, they cannot even survive one day if they can't keep up with the political posts, which is really hard now days.

Kaatar

05-04-2004, 11:26

Agreed. The tavern has become a scary place and it'd be nice to have a lighter forum for other non-polical or religious stuff.

Every time I post in the tavern I check the thread the next day hoping to God I wasn't quoted ... because we all know what happens when you get quoted in there ... *shivers and cries*

dessa14

05-04-2004, 11:38

as said in the other earlier thread, it would intensify the political room, but the tavern has become this intense political room that was predicted if we split the rooms. this is the first time i have ever seen things like a conservative club, and a Liberal club, where people refuse to answer others in that room, and even when requested to not post in there, they still did.
it has become outrageous.

thanks, dessa

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 14:57

Perhaps it is time for a political/religious debate room to be opened.

If we have reached a point where people are not going to the Tavern because of the intensity level then something needs to be done. Part of the problem is the lack of civility that I alluded to in another Watchtower thread. Part of the problem is also that these political/social issues are so numerous and those of us who enjoy them get vocal and start posting more and more of them, which in turn pushes all the movies/jokes/sports/cars threads to the bottom. I agree that it does make the Tavern one-dimensional and unfriendly at times. I would propose the following solution:

1) Keep the Tavern as the "socializing room" and open it up to all Senior Patrons who want to discuss "lighter topics".

Prohibit any threads that are political/social issue in nature. Any Senior Patron that wants a political/social discussion can start it in the Entrance Hall; which should be a catch-all room for new members.

2) Create the a separate room for any topic that is political or social issue oriented including but not limited to religion, the war in Iraq, George Bush, the conduct of the US and US elected officials, EU politics, world politics, abortion, etc. This room is only open to Members and above.

3) I think that the moderators do a great job in the Tavern and I have only had great interactions with them, however there are not enough eyes watching the bar so to speak.

I would propose increasing the number of moderators in both the Tavern and the prospective Political room because those rooms' topics require greater attention than other rooms' topics that are not given to such extreme disagreement.

More moderators might be able to share the responsibility to monitor and move inappropriate threads from the Tavern to the Political Room and to maintain a baseline level of civility in the Political Room. The more often a moderator can pop in and do this the less likely people are to get to personal or too intense. I would also say that it almost always be done publicly to give people a sense of what is going on and what is acceptable.

4) Given the current political and social climate in the world today discussions seem to get very heated very fast. People also seem to lose sight of civility in these heated discussions. In order for the Political Room to work and not to turn into an all out brawl, the forum rules need to be rigidly enforced and moderators need to be stepping into threads that begin to offend on a consistent basis. Again I am not criticizing the existing moderators they have a huge job and they do it well.

In my opinion, if the org wants to maintain a room or area that has lots of political/social topics there may need to be more members who are willing to step forward and help moderate those topics.

The intensity in the Tavern right now is what is driving people out. I enjoy the Tavern and when I first came to it there were more diverse threads. If there is only one type of thread in a room then there will only be one type of poster in that room. Perhaps it is time to split the Tavern into a Tavern and a political/social room.

These are only my suggestions based on my observations and I welcome any criticisms that others have. I think that we as the members of the org need to find a solution whereby people don't feel shut out of any room because of the intensity level or the dominance of one type of thread.

Ser Clegane

05-04-2004, 15:13

Well said, Dhepee http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

IIRC we already had a discussion about the very same issue some time ago.
While at that time I did not feel that a split of the Tavern would be necessary, the situation has developed into a direction where I think a split would be a good step - I actually would prefer to have the off-topic discussions all in the Tavern, but lately non-political topics had a tendency to disappear from the starting page in no time and therefore often did not get the attention they might have deserved.
If people now tend to avoid the Tavern altogether for the atmosphere that is developing there (and the trend of allocating the patrons to political camps in a rather superficial manner certainly promoted that atmosphere) a split into political and non-political subforums should be seriosly considered.

I think Dhepee's suggestion for implementing this sounds very feasible.

frogbeastegg

05-04-2004, 15:18

Quote[/b] (dessa14 @ May 04 2004,08:31)]isn't the mead hall for stories made by members, not books.
Books too, there is a Discworld thread in there for that very reason.

Quid

05-04-2004, 16:31

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ May 04 2004,15:57)]Perhaps it is time for a political/religious debate room to be opened.

If we have reached a point where people are not going to the Tavern because of the intensity level then something needs to be done. Part of the problem is the lack of civility that I alluded to in another Watchtower thread. Part of the problem is also that these political/social issues are so numerous and those of us who enjoy them get vocal and start posting more and more of them, which in turn pushes all the movies/jokes/sports/cars threads to the bottom. I agree that it does make the Tavern one-dimensional and unfriendly at times. I would propose the following solution:

1) Keep the Tavern as the "socializing room" and open it up to all Senior Patrons who want to discuss "lighter topics".

Prohibit any threads that are political/social issue in nature. Any Senior Patron that wants a political/social discussion can start it in the Entrance Hall; which should be a catch-all room for new members.

2) Create the a separate room for any topic that is political or social issue oriented including but not limited to religion, the war in Iraq, George Bush, the conduct of the US and US elected officials, EU politics, world politics, abortion, etc. This room is only open to Members and above.

3) I think that the moderators do a great job in the Tavern and I have only had great interactions with them, however there are not enough eyes watching the bar so to speak.

I would propose increasing the number of moderators in both the Tavern and the prospective Political room because those rooms' topics require greater attention than other rooms' topics that are not given to such extreme disagreement.

More moderators might be able to share the responsibility to monitor and move inappropriate threads from the Tavern to the Political Room and to maintain a baseline level of civility in the Political Room. The more often a moderator can pop in and do this the less likely people are to get to personal or too intense. I would also say that it almost always be done publicly to give people a sense of what is going on and what is acceptable.

4) Given the current political and social climate in the world today discussions seem to get very heated very fast. People also seem to lose sight of civility in these heated discussions. In order for the Political Room to work and not to turn into an all out brawl, the forum rules need to be rigidly enforced and moderators need to be stepping into threads that begin to offend on a consistent basis. Again I am not criticizing the existing moderators they have a huge job and they do it well.

In my opinion, if the org wants to maintain a room or area that has lots of political/social topics there may need to be more members who are willing to step forward and help moderate those topics.

The intensity in the Tavern right now is what is driving people out. I enjoy the Tavern and when I first came to it there were more diverse threads. If there is only one type of thread in a room then there will only be one type of poster in that room. Perhaps it is time to split the Tavern into a Tavern and a political/social room.

These are only my suggestions based on my observations and I welcome any criticisms that others have. I think that we as the members of the org need to find a solution whereby people don't feel shut out of any room because of the intensity level or the dominance of one type of thread.
Ditto

Spoken like a true genius http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Nothing more to add to that.

Quid

Gawain of Orkeny

05-04-2004, 16:33

I suggest you start a tea room then and leave the tavern alone. If you cannot take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 16:44

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 04 2004,11:33)]I suggest you start a tea room then and leave the tavern alone. If you cannot take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
That was uncalled for and needlessly snide. The point is that some people don't like the dominance of political/social threads in the Tavern and would like a room where non-TW threads that aren't political won't sink like stones. We have a separate forum for historical matters and for other games.

The Tavern is not a strictly political room by design but it is becoming that way by practice and that is shutting out patrons who don't want to talk politics but do want to talk about sports/movies/cars/hobbies and have no other room in which to do it.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-04-2004, 16:49

Quote[/b] ]That was uncalled for and needlessly snide

No it wasn't. I was agreeing with you. Have a tea room for the more tame and civilized discussions and leave the politics to us rowdy alcoholics.

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 17:03

Maybe, but I don't want to discuss semantics.

I was thinking that the Tavern would be kept for the more diverse topics, which was its original intent, and open a new room for our political debates/brawls called "The Bear Pit". I'm pretty sure that rowdy drunks can fight in bear pits just as well as anywhere else. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

The_Emperor

05-04-2004, 17:12

You know when Politics has taken over too much, its when the One-Word-Story Thread doesn't appear anywhere near the top anymore...

I agree with the idea behind creating a political forum, allowing the Tavern to revert back to its previous 'fun' status...

As many of you know we have had people leave the forum because of the mud-slinging that goes on in the Tavern, and when members are slowly avoiding posting in there you know its getting too serious and heated in there.

At any rate we have two choices either we create a seperate forum for Politics, or we have a policy similar to TotalWar.Com's Off-Topic Forum...

Quote[/b] ]5. Off Topic (Non Total War Discussions) - In this forum content not
related to Total War products (but limited by guideline #3) is allowed.
All content is subject to moderator actions if deemed unsuitable.
Material deemed unsuitable for this forum includes material which
involves politics, religion and sex. This forum is meant to be a light
hearted discussion area so please treat it as such.

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-04-2004, 18:12

Quote[/b] ]Quote
5. Off Topic (Non Total War Discussions) - In this forum content not
related to Total War products (but limited by guideline #3) is allowed.
All content is subject to moderator actions if deemed unsuitable.
Material deemed unsuitable for this forum includes material which
involves politics, religion and sex. This forum is meant to be a light
hearted discussion area so please treat it as such.

That didn't really work too well for the .com forums... I don't see what banning political discussion is going to acheive.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-04-2004, 18:12

Quote[/b] ]Quote
5. Off Topic (Non Total War Discussions) - In this forum content not
related to Total War products (but limited by guideline #3) is allowed.
All content is subject to moderator actions if deemed unsuitable.
Material deemed unsuitable for this forum includes material which
involves politics, religion and sex. This forum is meant to be a light
hearted discussion area so please treat it as such.

I still like the tea room where things can be discussed civilly over tea and crumpets.

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 18:37

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 04 2004,13:12)]
Quote[/b] ]Quote
5. Off Topic (Non Total War Discussions) - In this forum content not
related to Total War products (but limited by guideline #3) is allowed.
All content is subject to moderator actions if deemed unsuitable.
Material deemed unsuitable for this forum includes material which
involves politics, religion and sex. This forum is meant to be a light
hearted discussion area so please treat it as such.

That didn't really work too well for the .com forums... I don't see what banning political discussion is going to acheive.
The idea isn't to ban political discussions, it is to have a space reserved for them. You can't start a thread on the upcoming US presidential election in the Main Hall but you can in the Tavern. A politics room and a Tavern is the same idea.

If one type of discussion is going to take over a room that is meant for more than that one type then we are better off splitting the rooms so that everybody can post what they want to post without threads getting lost of pushed to the bottom of the forum.

The Arena is a good example of this. A lot of people wanted to talk about other games but there was no place where they could do this and have the threads stay active. A thread might get started on a game and then get overwhelmed by all the other posting in the Entrance Hall or Tavern. The Arena serves a niche in the org and it is a thriving forum with a lot of active threads.

BTW. I agree that banning politics is not a good idea. It creates more problems than it solves on forums, not just the com. People want to talk about politics and if they can't it starts to show in how everybody interacts in the forums. You can always tell that something is going on underneath the surface but it never quite gets out. When it does start to get out the thread gets closed. It creates a really contentious atmosphere in a forum between the members and between the members and the moderators.

I don't think a ban on politics is the solution. I think that given the huge amount of interest in politics on the org that there should be a separate room for them so that they don't overtake other rooms and prevent members from having the discussions that they want to have.

The_Emperor

05-04-2004, 18:47

I do not want to see Politics banned, but we really should give it a place of its own.

And a Tavern is not a place where people discuss politics, people go there to unwind and have a laugh.

Create a political Forum, maybe called "The Senate" or something.

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 18:53

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 04 2004,13:47)]I do not want to see Politics banned, but we really should give it a place of its own.

And a Tavern is not a place where people discuss politics, people go there to unwind and have a laugh.

Create a political Forum, maybe called "The Senate" or something.
The Senate is probably more appropriate than my suggestion, The Bear Pit. It fits with the RTW theme too.

Voigtkampf

05-04-2004, 19:24

The development the things are taking lately here at the Org and especially at the Tavern are unsettling, to say the least.

I was scrolling through the topics for the last few days and I was gravely disappointed when I realized one thing; if the Org had been like this when I had joined it, I wouldn't have bothered to stick around. This has also moved me to think how many of our new/old members are going to be averted by this atmosphere that is being created here lately. I've seen forums that have suffered by similar malaises; some have been hit more, some less, but none has profited from it. On a clan server a friend of mine was/is running I had the opportunity to observe something similar; once always full server was, after some heated accusations of cheating and both ill-tempered and premature decisions, closed for public and made available only for password use. Yet soon no one was visiting that place and even now, quite some time after that incident, and not to forget after the server was once again made available for public, you will never find anyone on it. All the time a heated debate was raging on special forums we were visiting, and even though all parties have excused themselves for their inappropriate behavior, the forums were left empty, much as the server has been ever since.

Now, before some old wise guru says "that won't happen to the Org", let me tell you that I do not believe that as well. But this animosity won't serve anyone, and a small member of overly eager people whose names keep popping up on every heated thread aren't doing favors to anyone, least themselves.

Alas, as the poets say, I fear that no one will "leave this keen encounter of our wits and fall somewhat into slower method". To expect otherwise would require a level of optimism and much less perception that I am able or willing to bring up.

So, I suppose that other than "holding fast" and waiting for R:TW that will, God grant, turn the discussion into those waters and away from dead presidents and near east conflicts, there is not much there can be done.

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-04-2004, 20:44

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ May 04 2004,18:37)]
Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 04 2004,13:12)]
Quote[/b] ]Quote
5. Off Topic (Non Total War Discussions) - In this forum content not
related to Total War products (but limited by guideline #3) is allowed.
All content is subject to moderator actions if deemed unsuitable.
Material deemed unsuitable for this forum includes material which
involves politics, religion and sex. This forum is meant to be a light
hearted discussion area so please treat it as such.

That didn't really work too well for the .com forums... I don't see what banning political discussion is going to acheive.
The idea isn't to ban political discussions, it is to have a space reserved for them. You can't start a thread on the upcoming US presidential election in the Main Hall but you can in the Tavern. A politics room and a Tavern is the same idea.

If one type of discussion is going to take over a room that is meant for more than that one type then we are better off splitting the rooms so that everybody can post what they want to post without threads getting lost of pushed to the bottom of the forum.

The Arena is a good example of this. A lot of people wanted to talk about other games but there was no place where they could do this and have the threads stay active. A thread might get started on a game and then get overwhelmed by all the other posting in the Entrance Hall or Tavern. The Arena serves a niche in the org and it is a thriving forum with a lot of active threads.

BTW. I agree that banning politics is not a good idea. It creates more problems than it solves on forums, not just the com. People want to talk about politics and if they can't it starts to show in how everybody interacts in the forums. You can always tell that something is going on underneath the surface but it never quite gets out. When it does start to get out the thread gets closed. It creates a really contentious atmosphere in a forum between the members and between the members and the moderators.

I don't think a ban on politics is the solution. I think that given the huge amount of interest in politics on the org that there should be a separate room for them so that they don't overtake other rooms and prevent members from having the discussions that they want to have.
I know what you meant Dhepee. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif It was just that the Emperor suggested a similar policy to the .Com, where they DID ban all political topics. That was what I was objecting to.

The_Emperor

05-04-2004, 20:51

I didn't sugguest it.

I was just explaining the only possible alternative we could have apart from creating another forum, or doing nothing.

Doesn't mean I endorse it as a course of action.

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-04-2004, 20:51

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 04 2004,20:51)]I didn't sugguest it.

I was just explaining the only possible alternative we could have apart from creating another forum, or doing nothing.
Oh, ok. My bad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

A.Saturnus

05-04-2004, 20:57

I have always been against seperating politics from the rest and still am.
One thing that must be considered is this: who´s going to moderate a forum that´s all political? The more topics we take out of the Tavern the more tension will be there. At the moment non-political threads may be pushed back by political ones but also vice versa. If there´s a place for all the non-political stuff, the first page of the Tavern will be overrun with political threads. And to be honest I also wouldn´t like to moderate the non-political area. How much of it would be spam-threads? I don´t know what should change when we split the Tavern. Someone who wants to avoid political debates can do so and still post in the Tavern. One thing we could do is to be more strict with bringing politics into a non-political debate. We could make sure that non-political threads remain non-political. If that can´t be done in one forum, it can´t be done over several.
I also think that it´s overal not so bad in the Tavern. I´ve seen non-political discussion boards that were worse. Atmoshere has been heated lately but that wasn´t the first time and it will calm down again.

And if politics and religion should be banned from the Org, I won´t be a Mod any longer.

TosaInu

05-04-2004, 21:11

Hello,

I'm not a Tavern regular, but the quick visits there and the 'remarks' in other forums gave me the impression that the situation changed a bit.

It's not the first time that there's a call for a Tavern split from various sides. Maybe there should be one now.

Creating the Arena and several other forums was not a problem at all, the topics more or less ensured friendly discussions. The political and world news ones tend to get overheated and, what I feel more sad about, boil over to other forums. The latter is unforgivable, the former shouldn't be much of a problem weren't it for the fact that this is a family and, in the first place, a game site (though I wouldn't care if some people only visited this site to have a discussion about politics and/or world news). If there's an exclusive forum for the heavier stuff, how do we prevent people to go ballistic and engage in a never ending series of personal attacks? How do we prevent things to get really ugly down there and most importantly: how do we ensure that the discussion stay in that forum?

I would like a reaction from the people who frequently post in such topics, please.

This is not an attempt to ban politcal talk nor an attempt to prevent a split.

Instead of creating a forum dedicated to politics/news only, a 2nd tavern could be added where these things will not be discussed (not open, not covert, not as side remark). A family Frontroom and a Backroom for the beer drinking tables.

Mouzafphaerre

05-04-2004, 21:45

-
We have that kind of duality over at our brotherhood forum (http://www.thelib.com/yabbse/index.php). The "Raven's Roost" is the main "tavern" for heavy and light topics alike. The "Back Porch" is where people go "absurd" intentionally either for the sake of it or when it gets too hot down at the roost. That's at least the way it's supposed to be.

We have (well, they have) strong political/religious debates in isolated threads but even the most marginal counter-parties can meet at the gaming boards or elsewhere for friendly chatter.

That all said, we are incomparably a smaller community than the ORG is. Being the main "unofficial" resource for Sea Dogs and PotC, most of our visitors merely hang out in the related boards and many of them usually stay there. Still, if things tend to go out of controle, we have our own county militia...err...admins I mean. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

All this babbling was to say that I like Tosa's idea. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
_

SwordsMaster

05-04-2004, 21:51

tessa seems quite interested on sports, shes stressing that continuously.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

I think we need another rrom for everything except poliitics. I might even post there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Dhepee

05-04-2004, 21:58

A front room/back room would be a good solution. It would allow a room to exist that is devoted to the heavier topics and one that is devoid of them.

Another site that I belong to,Armorama a model builders' site (http://www.armorama.com), uses this and they take it a step further. They have one OT forum called the Junk Drawer (every modeler has one) that is described like this, "For discussions without a home. Political rants or inflammatory comments/topics will be removed." and another called Der Sonntag Bund where anything goes, however you have to opt in by clicking that you have read the rules. That might be a little extreme for the org, but it shows that another site has made the split into a light OT forum and a heavy OT forum without the site falling apart or discussions getting heated in every forum.

Another issue, whether or not we develop another room, is that a lot of what is going on is political fights boiling over into other threads/rooms or a large number of side comments that while not overtly hostile, pick at other members. This picking at other members and "veiled flaming" is what is creating a lot of tension between members, imo.

In my opinion the solution is twofold, a "back room" Tavern and an acceptance that mods will be shutting down topics or moving inappropriately placed topics and even warning members who persist in posting material that is not appropriate to the forum that they are in. There might be a learning curve for a few people at first but after a couple of days people would start to get the picture. I also think that a "front room" Tavern should be opened up to Senior Patrons and the "back room" to Members, basically the way it is done now with the Tavern only open to Members.

Like I said in an earlier post in this thread it might require more moderators which means a couple of more members might have to step up and volunteer to help out with the site. A backroom Tavern would not be as easy to police as the Arena but with a little help it could work and it would allow for a friendly OT space in the Front Room that doesn't have some of the tensions that the Tavern does now.

I also see the other side of the coin. Essentially if we can't manage one Tavern how can we manage two. I think that in terms of forum management, a Front Room would be pretty self regulating after awhile. People would figure out that if they post an Iraq war poll in the Front Room that it will get shut down, hopefully. As far as spam goes it's like an ant colony, you'll never get the queen. Again, the back room would require more management but if a couple of people were added as moderators then the work load would be more spread out.

I agree whole heartedly with A.Saturnus if politics and religion are banned then I wouldn't want to post here. That is not the solution. We have to find a way to work together without losing sight of why we are here and the fact that this is a family and game oriented website. Politics will always be a topic of discussion and disagreement but there is no reason that we can't be civil about it.

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-04-2004, 22:03

Quote[/b] ]Another issue, whether or not we develop another room, is that a lot of what is going on is political fights boiling over into other threads/rooms or a large number of side comments that while not overtly hostile, pick at other members. This picking at other members and "veiled flaming" is what is creating a lot of tension between members, imo.

I agree totally, we have to get past people's opinions in other threads being belittled along the lines of 'Well, you're a [liberal/conservative, delete as appropriate] so you would say that'. In fact, I think that all this hostility began with the tavern being polarised into left and right wing groups, which has gotten really extreme recently. A person's perceived political affiliation seems to matter more than what they actually have to say nowadays.

dessa14

05-05-2004, 01:47

Quote[/b] ]Instead of creating a forum dedicated to politics/news only, a 2nd tavern could be added where these things will not be discussed (not open, not covert, not as side remark). A family Frontroom and a Backroom for the beer drinking tables.

i think this would be the best idea, and that it will fix the problem.

thanks, dessa

Malcolm Big Head

05-05-2004, 03:24

I think The Bear Pit might be to tame of a name. Possibly the Viper pit. I haven't been here long enough to see anything but the rough tavern but have no opposition to a split.

dessa14

05-05-2004, 11:08

i think vipers are too tame for the situation, i think it should be called the "Radical Pollies pit"
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

thanks, dessa

The_Emperor

05-05-2004, 11:53

In fact keeping it named as the Tavern would be a good idea... Afterall it is the Home of assassins (or maybe one of those upgraded Taverns in VI)

Malcolm Big Head

05-05-2004, 13:25

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 05 2004,05:53)]In fact keeping it named as the Tavern would be a good idea... Afterall it is the Home of assassins (or maybe one of those upgraded Taverns in VI)
In that case the watchtower should be renamed the brothel since the mods frequent it.

econ21

05-05-2004, 15:35

There is a danger that too much posting on politics can destroy a gaming community. I would offer comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical as a case in point. That usenet group was created to give grognards a place free from the off-topic c**p then dominating comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. However, due to a couple of profilic and aggressive right-wing posters, it became very unpleasant and now is pretty dead, almost completely devoid of any gaming material. (By contrast, *.strategic has perversely become more on-topic.) When political discussions get over-heated, they turn a lot of people off and away.

I am not sure what can be done to avoid this risk - it's probably largely a matter of self-restraint by posters and moderating to avoid personal attacks. Having a separate room for politics/current affairs/religion/ethics might help though.

However hopefully when RTW comes out, the Tavern and OT forums will be less alluring - we'll be interested in getting back to talking about TW in the gaming forums.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-05-2004, 17:39

I dont think these forums have much to do with the game itself. Few here play MTW online. All RTW will do is bring more people here. By the way do you have to buy the game in order to gain accesss to these forums?

TosaInu

05-05-2004, 17:41

Hello Simon Appleton,

I agree, making such a forum isn't going to be a magic solution. It could be part of it. Most of it depends on self-restraint by posters. Posters are the best moderators.

I'm interested in what the potential users of the backroom think?

TosaInu

05-05-2004, 17:59

Hello Gawain of Orkeny,

No you don't have to buy the game to use these forums. All we ask for, basically, is that this remains a fun place.

We used a flatfile forum in the past, it grew very big and put a lot of stress on the server resources. The host cut us off completely. Serious prunning was required to get back online, unfortunately this was also done to the 'important' TW topics.

This forum has about twice as much posts in one year as the previous had in two (the forced prune was at 70,000 posts IIRC and then we had a dreadful 10,000 limit). This is a far more efficient board, but the day might come that prunning is required. The OT forums will be the first to be prunned then (not deleted or closed, prunned). Having to download 200+ mb backups doesn't count as requirement in my books.

Ser Clegane

05-05-2004, 18:19

Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ May 05 2004,11:41)]I'm interested in what the potential users of the backroom think?
I think it would be a good idea. Positive effects would potentially be

- access to the threads on "lighter" issues for the junior patrons (like in the Arena)

- hopefully livelier discussions in the "lighter" threads as those do not get pushed down as fast by the political threads

I do not think that the moderating effort will necessarily increase. I do not see why the political discussions should get more hostile and thus require more moderating than they are currently - IMO the atmosphere would not be driven by a dedicated forum but rather by the people who post and what topics are "hot" (I remember that a year ago shortly before the Iraq war started discussions were sometimes getting quite hostile).
Especially in the beginning it will probably necessary to move some more threads from one forum to another but I expect that this would go back to a normal level pretty quickly.

We should make sure, however, that the forum rules regarding bahaviour still aplly in a new political forum - that's why I would rather not have a name like "Bear Pit" for the new forum as it already implies that hostile behaviour might be more acceptable, which IMO should not be the case - we should aim to maintain the generally friendly atmosphere of the org across all its forums since this atmosphere is the reason why many people came to and stayed at the org in the first place.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-05-2004, 18:48

I think a name like the Townhall for politics would be much more fitting.

Dhepee

05-05-2004, 19:50

Ser Clegane I agree with you. I think that a split to allow for lighter and heavier topics would help to keep this a friendly and interesting place.

Regardless of atmosphere politics, religion, and social issues are very popular with posters in the Tavern and tend to take up a lot of space and also tend to push other topics down the list.

I get the impression both from what was said on the boards and from a few familiar faces that have not been to the Tavern much in recent weeks that an OT forum that is almost completely dominated by politics, religion, and social issues is not representative of the entire org community's posting interests.

A dedicated "light OT" room would satisfy a lot of people who want to keep threads active like the James Bond thread or the Penguin Game thread that are both on the Tavern's first page as I post. It would also give everybody who wants to post about politics, religion, and social issues a dedicated space where they won't have to worry about threads like the "no more politics thread" that popped up couple of months ago.

I do, however, think that extra moderators might be needed. As Tosa said the best moderators are the posters, however it only takes one or two posters who get very upset over an issue to really affect the forum's atmosphere. A couple of extra full-time moderators would spread the work load around and would increase the likelihood that someone will see a spark in a thread before it turns into a flame.

You are right that a name like "The Bear Pit", would be counterproductive. I was being flippant about the way some political threads turn out. Someone else suggested "The Senate" which I like a lot.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-05-2004, 19:58

The name the Senate suggests authority of some type to me. Thats why IMO Town hall seems to be better, More of a meeting type place than a part of government.

Dhepee

05-05-2004, 20:14

Quote[/b] (Gawain of Orkeny @ May 05 2004,14:58)]The name the Senate suggests authority of some type to me. Thats why IMO Town hall seems to be better, More of a meeting type place than a part of government.
Good call, Gawain, "The Senate" does sound like it's the forum that runs the place. I like "Town Hall" or maybe "The Forum" or "The Agora" to go with the RTW theme.

Gawain of Orkeny

05-05-2004, 20:17

Quote[/b] ]Good call, Gawain, "The Senate" does sound like it's the forum that runs the place.
Especially with RTW coming out and also thats the name of the ruling body at the net.

ichi

05-06-2004, 06:48

My inclination is to think that this current situation of many heavy political posts will give way to less serious topics over time. People come and go and right now we have a bunch of people interested in politics. This is the thread Darwinism others have spoken of - the Tavern is full of politics because people post there on politic subjects.

But I can go there and find other interesting threads about dogs and tanks and lawyer jokes. I do wish that some of the more aggressive posters would lighten up a little.

The Tavern is active, some of the other forums can get a little stale. The more we split things up the less active some forums become.

I'm tempted to lean toward keeping things as they are. I don't think that a split (as has been described) would be necessary, but neither would it be a disaster.

The one thing to remember is that even if the Tavern got completely political and dark/ugly so that few went there, the main reason for the Org would continue to be the forums about the game. As long as those forums are inviting to folks, the site will continue to be healthy.

ichi

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

05-06-2004, 18:05

Wait 6 months and it will be over... It's US election time, it only last so long, after that things will go back to normal.

Louis,

Demon of Light

05-07-2004, 06:38

Like A.Saturnus, I don't support the idea of splitting the Tavern into two segments. The solution doesn't lie in creating a more concentrated version of the problem we have now. I would be more in favor of giving the Tavern mods bigger sticks. As it stands now, we get three or four flaming posts before the mods can even get a warning in. By the time the thread is closed, there are about half a dozen more posts with accusations, flame and what have you. If te Moderators could close out threads and discipline people faster, things might be less likely to spiral out of control.

Also, if there is a split, I've heard some people voice concerns over having sufficient moderators. That's hardly a concern. We have a few Assistant Moderators. Most of them don't have a heavy workload. Further, there are enough level headed members (Dhepee comes to mind) for there to be an ample pool to select from. One idea I had in passing is intentionally recruiting moderators that have contributed to the problem. Very risky BUT if the correct person is chosen then that person may hold themself to a higher standard and would be a decidedly militant moderator. Balancing it out between two people with opposed viewpoints might give both sides reason to think before they post.

dessa14

05-07-2004, 12:21

we could just get more mods.
with a world wide group of mods, we could have a mod on every hour of the day

thanks, dessa

TosaInu

05-07-2004, 13:31

Hello,

I guess we should give it a try and see if it works. The two can be merged without much effort if it doesn't.

Dhepee

05-07-2004, 14:23

Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ May 07 2004,01:38)]Like A.Saturnus, I don't support the idea of splitting the Tavern into two segments. The solution doesn't lie in creating a more concentrated version of the problem we have now. I would be more in favor of giving the Tavern mods bigger sticks. As it stands now, we get three or four flaming posts before the mods can even get a warning in. By the time the thread is closed, there are about half a dozen more posts with accusations, flame and what have you. If te Moderators could close out threads and discipline people faster, things might be less likely to spiral out of control.

Also, if there is a split, I've heard some people voice concerns over having sufficient moderators. That's hardly a concern. We have a few Assistant Moderators. Most of them don't have a heavy workload. Further, there are enough level headed members (Dhepee comes to mind) for there to be an ample pool to select from. One idea I had in passing is intentionally recruiting moderators that have contributed to the problem. Very risky BUT if the correct person is chosen then that person may hold themself to a higher standard and would be a decidedly militant moderator. Balancing it out between two people with opposed viewpoints might give both sides reason to think before they post.
Demon of Light thank you for your comments; they were very much appreciated.

I think that you are right on with your comments about needing more mods. Adding a few more mods would increase the chance that a flaming post doesn't get very far. I also think that the "bigger stick" is important. It may not be enough to just close a thread because of flames; mods may need more enforcement ability if they are going to prevent a flame from migrating from one thread to another. Of course any mod would have to use their enforcement ability carefully because you wouldn't want to create a members vs. mods scenario. I think that as long as it is clear that mods are still members of the org and not out to get any one member the relationship will remain on the good footing that it is currently.

I think that one of the biggest issues is that most flames don't just start out of nowhere, there is usually a series of veiled exchanges, sometimes in multiple threads, that lead to an all out flame only after a dozen of so posts. If mods had the power to step in to these veiled exchanges and giving some kind of warning to the participants it might keeps things a whole lot more civil.

Demon of Light

05-07-2004, 21:27

I was thinking on the issue of veiled exchanges but I couldn't really find a workable solution. The problem is that those posts are usually not themselves against any rules and their very existance (on a case by case basis) is open to intepretation. If moderators start commenting on these posts, the member in question can fall back to a position of claiming ignorance. Then there can be a lovely exchange about what was really meant by the post. The whole thing might end the first few times with a stilted apology like "I did not intend for my words to imply that any patron here is of substandard intelligence. I'm sorry if they were interpreted in that fashion". The next few times it happens though, there will start to be issues raised about moderator harrassment and persecution. It won't matter who's right. The whole thing would lead to a big mess.

Dhepee

05-07-2004, 21:46

Yes, I have thought about that too. People will often say that they were only joking or that they said it in response to an earlier post or a post in a different thread and it could turn into a case a moderator tracking down many many old posts. I don't think that there can be a system whereby moderators ding you for a veiled insult but a moderator who is posting in a thread a general warning that people need to dial it back. No one is being singled out, but people are aware that they can't let the thread get out of hand.

It goes back to what Tosa said in an earlier post, that posters make the best moderators. The awareness that everybody needs to calm down, without a specific warning to a person or reference to a single post, is often enough to get people to self-moderate and cool down the intensity. I have seen several mods make a general announcement that it is time to calm down and generally people do. My guess is that if we have a few more full time moderators in the Tavern that when things start to heat up it is more likely that a mod will be there early on to say something in general and it won't actually lead to warning a specific member or deleting posts/locking threads. But you are right Demon of Light a mod cannot ding people for what they are implying only for what they are saying directly, an over-regulated forum is just as bad as an under-regulated forum. It's all about balance.

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-07-2004, 23:05

I agree that more moderators are a good idea. It seems odd that the Entrance hall has more Mods than the Tavern.

hrvojej

05-08-2004, 04:23

Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ May 07 2004,16:27)]I was thinking on the issue of veiled exchanges but I couldn't really find a workable solution. The problem is that those posts are usually not themselves against any rules and their very existance (on a case by case basis) is open to intepretation. If moderators start commenting on these posts, the member in question can fall back to a position of claiming ignorance. Then there can be a lovely exchange about what was really meant by the post.
I think the issue can be complicated even further. It suffices to put a stupid emoticon at the end of the post, and regardless of what kind of rules were broken in the text itself, the poster can always claim he/she was "joking". That's even more transparent than baiting through doubletalk, but leaves plenty of room for feet stomping about how the mods are "unfair" and "disallow posting jokes".

I agree that general warnings tend to cool down the situation. And I agree that those warnings should be backed up by means to enforce them at mods' discretion. Whether the tavern needs more mods I couldn't say, however, since I don't keep track of how often they are able to comb the threads.

Voigtkampf

05-08-2004, 08:56

I agree with hrvojej, but in the end, only one completely certain rule will have its value in the Tavern; if the Tavern visitors don't choose the civilized way, then all the king's men and horses and moderators won't be able to patch things back together…

dessa14

05-08-2004, 09:57

i think even if they continue to act like this, with the amount of moderators we should have in the tavern, posts and threads would be deleted as soon as they do turn into flame wars, by doing this it would prevent retalitory action by the group getting flamed.

thanks, dessa

Fragony

05-08-2004, 10:50

I enjoy a political discussion, and apreciate the politeness and ideological diversity that is the tavern. But maybe, there could be a 'heated discussions' section, much like I saw on the avault forums. The bar of when a discusion is heated or not should be completely subject to the discretion of the moderators, who I can't compliment enough for allowing topics that would result in flamewars on many other less mature sites. Politics is very much alive nowadays, and the domination of political subjects in the tavern reflects that. The org could decide to make a 'fun' room, but I don't think that would help much since nationbashing can be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Mount Suribachi

05-08-2004, 14:42

Once again the topic of the Tavern & politics rears its ugly head..........

I was one of those who called for a separate politics forum last time the subject was broached, and I still feel that way.

Non-political subjects generally last less than a day in the Tavern, and some last only a few hours before they drop off page 1. Those who promote discussion board darwinianism are wrong I believe. One only has to look at the success of the Arena. Threads last for a week or more as people come and go and add to the discussion and keep topics alive, yet these popular threads just don't stand a chance in the Tavern.

The atmosphere in the Tavern is getting increasingly hostile. Non political threads are getting rarer & rarer and the ones that are posted don't survive for long. The only time in the last 18 months that the Tavern has cooled down was when ** & ** left at the same time. This had 2 effects

1) 2 of the main protaganists of all the arguing were no longer there

2) I think it had a sobering effect on most of the patrons and things calmed down.

Since then, the shock of patrons leaving has worn off, ** has returned, so has ** and ** has arrived. Now the politics is worse than ever. With the European elections, handover of power in Iraq & US presidential election all this year, I don't see it cooling down any time soon.

Now I don't mind whether the politics stays in the Tavern and new forums are set up - eg a sports forum, utilising the Mead Hall more for discussion of books, movies etc. (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=17979;r=1;&#top). Or if the Tavern stays and there is a separate politics forum, but something must be done IMO. As to the mods of this politics forum (wherever it is) I think they should be people who aren't tarnished as either a pinko leftie or an evil republican - having ** and ** as the mods would be a bad idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Edit: no naming please.