XVI -XVII mod [Archive]

Hetman

05-07-2004, 09:43

Nomad

Recently I was working on my numer 1 mod ( a fantasy one), although I was only renaming/copying and pasting/inventing new units ( 238 in total)and projectiles ( spells for mages/wizards/shamans) and trying to balance the stats it took about 3 weeks when I decided it is ready to test. I'm really proud of this - I've solved so many problems e.g.
slow but tireless Dwarfs, Undead which don't flee, magic spells - but it was a nightmare and now it's still just playable in custom battles mode. For this reason I'm not going to do everything alone.

I'm aware this is not going to be easy, especially because I really don't now much about animation - I was only able to mod shields for my XVIth century Hussars ( Feudal Knights in fact) and to create a hypnotic shields for one of units in the fantasy mod.

What I'm really able to do now is mostly modding varius text files ( I mean almost all which can be edited using Notepad)+ info pics and some more.

Of course I've several ideas for units, although I'll need more information especially concerning Western Europe - Spain, England, Italy etc. Also everything which can be used in info_pics ( I'd like to use as many historical paintings as possible) is of much value.

I think that for now I'm able to make it playable without any animation changes, campaign map modyfications and probably another religion ( protestant). It is much easier to wait for other modders when it comes to map changes - especially the LORDS or WesW. I like the idea of adding 7-8 more provinces using remaining colours in the palette.

I know I'll need much more info, more skills and some help of course.
The timeframe - ending the mod in 1648 isn't a bad idea, although
as You know this year is 'a breaking point' for several countries -
Russia, Turkey, Poland, Hungary and Brandenburg for example.

Here You have an interesting webside about Polish military - it was much different than in western Europe no caracole for example.

links http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/index.htm
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/Contents.htm

Regards Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Eastside Character

05-07-2004, 10:24

Such mod would be probably comparable in its complexity to something like NTW, which makes it a very challenging endeavor.

Though using altered campmap (like the one Wes is making) is a certainly a good idea, the first release could use the original MTW map I believe.
A very basic mod could be first constructed using the original unit graphics, and only set in the period you here discuss, with appropriate (in that respect that representing appropriate, but not accurate in their appearance) units, buildings, tech trees, factions.

BTW, nice to see some other modder from Poland, Hetman. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Regards,
EC

Hetman

05-07-2004, 11:02

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 07 2004,04:24)]A very basic mod could be first constructed using the original unit graphics, and only set in the period you here discuss, with appropriate (in that respect that representing appropriate, but not accurate in their appearance) units, buildings, tech trees, factions.

BTW, nice to see some other modder from Poland, Hetman. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Regards,
EC
EC

I've tried this already, but because I need some help I decided to post the topic.

I'm going to use NTW battlefield maps, especially when it comes to castles ( for the biggest of them)

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-07-2004, 11:33

Great Idea Hetman.

It is an interesting period indeed. I think the end date should be 1700, (Charles II of Spain dies, and europe goes to war for 15 years, apart other campaigns all over the map)

I can get a lot of info about Spain, so if you need it give me a shout.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
THe pikes fade out as times goes by, but that is correct, after all you use much less x-bows whe you have arbs.

The problem I see, is how are you going to manage the incomes the nations received from the colonies? I think you should do something like, if you have a chain of ships from the western border of the map to your port, you get xxx cash.

Anyway, keep it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

You could also separate the mod into 3 periods:

1: 1492-1600
2: 1600-1648
3: 1648-1700

Or something similar.

Hetman

05-07-2004, 11:42

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 07 2004,05:33)]1.I can get a lot of info about Spain, so if you need it give me a shout.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

2.The problem I see, is how are you going to manage the incomes the nations received from the colonies? I think you should do something like, if you have a chain of ships from the western border of the map to your port, you get xxx cash.
Anyway, keep it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

3.You could also separate the mod into 3 periods:

1: 1492-1600
2: 1600-1648
3: 1648-1700

Or something similar.
1. Yes I need more info.

2. And no. It is impossible, but I'm going to add some structures like NTW East India Company but linked to certain provinces by colony 'trade good' and generating certain amount of cash exactly as Cathedral for example.

3. I thought about it and it really seems to be a very good idea.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-07-2004, 11:44

Everybody

my E-mail Cegorach@wp.pl

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

SwordsMaster

05-07-2004, 11:52

Quote[/b] ]1. Yes I need more info

What do you need to know?

Kings, gens? soldiers and weapons? princesses? land controlled? richest provs?

tell me what you need and i'll email you with what you need.

Hetman

05-07-2004, 12:17

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 07 2004,05:52)]
Quote[/b] ]1. Yes I need more info

What do you need to know?

Kings, gens? soldiers and weapons? princesses? land controlled? richest provs?

tell me what you need and i'll email you with what you need.
Unit ideas mostly. The rest if You like.

+ pictures for Info_pics if You have any.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

SwordsMaster

05-07-2004, 13:28

I'll work on that over the weekend. I'll try to find pics as well, but thats gonna be harder. I dont think they took many photographs in the XVI cent............ Ok bad joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Nomad

05-07-2004, 18:55

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hi Hetman,
I've emailed you some basic ideas for 16th and 17th century units taken from DBR army lists. There's a lot more info to be found there, which I'll be only to glad to do a little more research for.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

SwordsMaster

05-09-2004, 00:20

Ok, this is the most complete guide to the spanish army between 1460s and 1704 that I know about. There are some pics as well.

this page (http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html)

hope it is useful. I will send you some more detailed pics of armours and swords later.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

Hetman

05-09-2004, 12:01

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 08 2004,18:20)]Ok, this is the most complete guide to the spanish army between 1460s and 1704 that I know about. There are some pics as well.

this page (http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html)

hope it is useful. I will send you some more detailed pics of armours and swords later.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif
Are You sure about this link.
It seems that this doesn't work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

SwordsMaster

05-09-2004, 12:54

hmmm.. I just checked and it does work, but heres the URL anyway:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

hope you can get there. If not, tellme and I will put it into a word document.

Nomad

05-09-2004, 20:19

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif The link worked for me too
A good read.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Hetman

05-10-2004, 09:29

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 09 2004,06:54)]hmmm.. I just checked and it does work, but heres the URL anyway:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

hope you can get there. If not, tellme and I will put it into a word document.
I tried, but again I was not able. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

I don't know what was wrong.

It seems I'll need Your help.

Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Hetman

05-10-2004, 09:31

I've finally decided to use Eastside Character's idea - modding without changes in textures. At least we are lucky to have pikemen in the MTW.

So I'm going to make the techtree ( or rather techtrees
- HINT Master Horse Breeder only for Poland, Ottomans, Hungary, Crimean Tartars), startpositions, units, descriptions, names and so on.

If You have some proposals/ideas post them here or use e-mails or PM.

Now some ideas.

A.The timeframe

1. Age of Exploration 1492 - 1580

2. 1580 - 1648 ( no name yet),

3. 1648 - 1700 ( no name yet),

B.Expanding religion

First I'm going to implement Protestant religion.

Second - Trydentium, in the second era certain factions will be able to

'produce' Jesuits or other units to convert population's beliefs.

I'm going to implement religius tolerance, absolutism and democracy - for certain countries.
This means several buildings like The Parliament for example.

What does it mean moreover ?

Tolerant countries for example will not be able to produce priests of any kind, but will get access to several buildings which increase local happiness and not only.

Here is the first ( incomplete) list of:

1. tolerant countries

Poland, Hungary, Transylvania ( 1580+ period) + who knows.

2. democratic countries

Venetia, England ( but probably in a slightly different way), Poland, Hungary, United Provinces ( Holland).

C.Homelands

Of course I'm going to use this really great idea from WesW's mod.

Here is first list of homeland provinces for:

POLAND

Prussia, Pomerania, Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Livonia, Smolensk, Carpathia + some units from Silesia, Bohemia, Hungary, Moldavia, Vallachia, Crimea and in the east.

HUNGARY

Hungary, Carpathia, Vallachia, Croatia, Bohemia + Moldavia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Austria, Silesia, Poland, Volhunia.

SWEDEN

Sweden, Finland, Norway, Livonia + Prussia, Novgorod, Denmark, Saxony, Pomerania,

and ( restricted) in German countries.

DENMARK

Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Saxony, Pomerania, Livonia + Novgorod, Prussia and German countries.

D.FIRST UNIT

Here is a short description of my beloved unit - one of the most important reasons I've decided to make this mod.

Polish Winged Lancers/Polish Hussars or simply Husaria

speed- fast, but only slightly more than an average heavier cavalry;
more resilent horses,
causes fear in pikemen units,
charge - irresistible 10 probably - 5 meter long lance;
attack - 4 or 5;
defence - 3;
morale - 6;
armour - heavy but not very;
1 supporting rank to allow fighting ( and charging) in two ranks;
+2 to attack cavalry ( wings and a lance);
bonus vs. armoured troops;
disciplined;
production time 2 years;
unit size 40;
available only to Poland from 1580 ( second period);
buildable in Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Smolensk and Livonia.

IMPORTANT

If You have some unit proposals please describe units in some way.

I need basic ideas - e.g. fast cavalry, broadsword, pistols, for Sweden, high attack, irresistible charge, excellent morale, may charge without orders, low requirements + maybe more ( Jpeg, description, and so no).

Regards Cegorach/Hetman~:thumb:

SwordsMaster

05-10-2004, 10:45

Quote[/b] ]2. 1580 - 1648 ( no name yet),

suggestion: religious wars

BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

I suggest you make them slow (5 m lance on horseback is not exactly wieldy), and not armour piercing, but give them 'elite' status. I think that would be more accurate.

BTW, the +2 bonus should only apply to cavalry that isnt armed with lances themselves, such as lancers.(because the reach is quite similar).

Fast cav: german reitar: armed with pistols and sword.

very Fast,
strong charge, (5)
VERY good attack (6),
good defence,(4)
bonus vs armoured cavs during the first 2-3 secs because of the pistols, then the defence should drop 2-3 points.(1?)
no armor.(0)
unit size : 46
disciplined.
morale (2)

Available to HRE, Spain, Nehterlands, France (only 3rd periond), and to the rest of the world as mercs)

I'll put that page into a word doc. BTW, did you receive my email?

wilpuri

05-10-2004, 11:26

The second Era could also be called "The Great War" as it includes the 30-year war, which was known as the Great war during the 17th century. WW1 kind of stole that name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Some unit ideas:
for the swedish faction
Smålands cavalry: light, fast but not too powerful (small swedish horses) only available in sweden.
Hakkapeliitta cavalry: Light, fast, illdisciplined, impetous, excellent morale, irresistible charge. Can only be trained in Finland.
Finnish Conscripts/Hakkapeliitta infantry: Infantry recruited from Finland, known as hakkapeliittas as well because of the war cry that all Finns used (Hakkaa päälle).
Swedish artillery should also be slightly better to contempories, may be a slightly faster firing rate or something.

Quote[/b] ]New tactics in warfare proved the increasing significance of artillery. The numbers of trained artillerists increased in order to achieve more effect on the battlefield. At the same time, artillerists became a permanent part of the military organisation. During the country's era as a Great Power (1611-1718), Sweden became a leader in the development of artillery during that period. The first artillery general was Swedish - Lennart Torstensson.

http://www.mil.se/historia/english/17th.html

Just some ideas. I would really like to see a pike & musket mod realized. A time period completely ignored so far.

Cebei

05-10-2004, 11:26

Real good time frames. However, I got a question. I guess my part is to pile up an Ottoman ruler-unit-hero-province info thingy again; this time for post-1492.

We can do it neatly with Mouzapheare. Now what are we doing?

cutepuppy

05-10-2004, 12:34

just a small remark: why not a period 1568-1648 (80 years war)?
It may only be important for the Low Countries, though.
That way you've got slightly more evenly spaced time periods (about 75/80/50 years instead of 100/50/50)

Trax

05-10-2004, 12:39

Quote[/b] ]BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)
Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.

SwordsMaster

05-10-2004, 13:15

Quote[/b] (cutepuppy @ May 10 2004,06:34)]just a small remark: why not a period 1568-1648 (80 years war)?
It may only be important for the Low Countries, though.
That way you've got slightly more evenly spaced time periods (about 75/80/50 years instead of 100/50/50)
I think the breakpoint should be the death of emperor Charles I of Spain (Charles V of HRE) because the HRE separated from Spain and they became independent of each other. I think its a major breakpoint.

BTW, cant the length of the turns be changed? coz it would be better to have 6months turns instead of annual ones.That would show that the development was faster than in the middle ages...

Quote[/b] ]Quote
BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.

I didnt negate that, but they still should have a counterpart. If you give Poland invincible cavalry, give every nation an invincible unit... Then the problem would be what if all the invincible units face each other? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

My suggestions were purely due to balance purposes and logic considerations.(How fast could an armoured guy with a 5 m lance move? and not only move, but maniobrate in formation?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Anyways, what I thought about is that musquets/harquebus in formation should cause fear to all cavalry except german cuirassers (those guys had bulletproof armour which harquebuses couldnt trespass) if they charge from the front. I dont know if that is doable tho.

BTW, the swedish cuirassers should also be really powerful.
And their grenadiers aswell.

@Cebei: have a look at the link above somewhere, and click on "Foreign Forces" or something similar. There is a good bit about Ottomans.

gee, this was a long post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

BTW, have you thought of some cool short name? like hmmm... MTW (musket Total War) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Trax

05-10-2004, 18:03

The power of Poland can be balanced by other means, the low loyalty of her generals, the high rebelliousness of some of the provinces etc. these were the reasons why Poland didn´t conquer the world in real life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Quote[/b] ]speed- fast, but only slightly more than an average heavier cavalry;
more resilent horses,
causes fear in pikemen units,
charge - irresistible 10 probably - 5 meter long lance;
attack - 4 or 5;
defence - 3;
morale - 6;
armour - heavy but not very;
1 supporting rank to allow fighting ( and charging) in two ranks;
+2 to attack cavalry ( wings and a lance);
bonus vs. armoured troops;
disciplined;
production time 2 years;
unit size 40;
available only to Poland from 1580 ( second period);
buildable in Poland, Volhynia, Kiev, Lithuania, Smolensk and Livonia.

Irresistable charge - must be in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
causes fear in pikemen - well they were pretty much only cavalry able to defeat pikes with a frontal charge.
attack - for the sake of balance it may be 4
+2 attack against cavalry - unnecessary IMHO, their irresistable charge should give them natural edge against other cavalry.
bonus vs armored troops - they aren´t armed with an axe, are they? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Buildable in Livonia - I doubt it very much, the local nobles - the Germans had a very different way of fighting.

Duke John

05-10-2004, 18:28

Topic moved to the Engineers Guild as it has turned into mod development.

Duke John

SwordsMaster

05-10-2004, 21:06

@ trax I do support the unit in general, and i think they will add some visual to the game ,you dont see guys with wings everyday... And I still think they should be slower.
Irrest charge sounds good, and fear in spearmen as well agree with the Livonia thing, and the rest is pretty much what I said so I obviously agree with that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Another Unit for poland I thought about is the Pani:

Heavy cav armed with curved swords. Elite, undisciplined, fast, and colourful. REally good morale.

Something like that...

And for France I think you should include the Royal Musketeer as the late `best´musketeer unit... I have to think about the stats tho..

Mouzafphaerre

05-11-2004, 00:17

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 10 2004,13:26)]We can do it neatly with Mouzapheare. Now what are we doing?
-
Why, I'm in of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But let's please start it a bit earlier than 1492. I say 1481. Why? Simple: With little anachronisme, we can include Gem Sultan's revolt (rebels to the east) and give Ottomans a pain to deal with. Otherwise, they will be overpowered.

We can also include the Qurtuba Saltanat in Iberia (Cordoba), which will have been wiped off in 1492...

Thinking again, 1492 will do it too but it aint a coronation date... Anyway, tell me what you think.

I know a couple people who will be -potentilly at least- interested in this project too. Already, I've got a literature historian/historical litarary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif to work on names etc.
_

Eastside Character

05-11-2004, 00:25

Hello Hetman,

Nice to see the mod is progressing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

As for that Polish Winged Hussar, I think it'd be better called just Husaria, it's more distinctive. And I believe they really don't need that armor piercing ability with all their other bonuses, they should be the strongest heavy cavalry tho.

As for unit ideas, well I think you may have thought about some of them yourself:

Wybraniecka Infantry

period: high (and maybe also late, I'm not sure)
faction: Polish;
a kind of militia unit
- size - 80-100

feats;
- charge 4
- attack 2
- defence 1
- morale 2
- armor 2
- bonus attacking cavalry 1
- available preferably only in: Poland, Volhynia, Prussia, Livonia, Lithuania, Smolensk

Pancerni

faction: Polish;
a kind of strong, armored cavalry archer
- size - at least 40

period: all periods, but their building requirement shouldnt make them easy to get at the beginning of the early campaign I think
feats;
- charge 4
- attack 2
- defence 4
- morale 6
- armor 4
- armor piercing weapon
- preferably less arrows than regular cavalry archer units
- available preferably only in: Poland, Livonia, Volhynia, Kiev, Moldavia

Petryhorcy

faction: Polish
really Pancerni with lances, but due to the fact that Petryhorcy used those lances, bows were of no use most of the time, and were part of equipment, but not often used in battle
- size - 40

period: all periods, similar restrains as for Pancerni
feats;
- charge 6
- attack 3
- defence 4
- morale 6
- armor 4
- available preferably only in: Lithuania, Smolensk, Livonia, Chernigov, Kiev

Zaporohian Infantry

faction: Russian, Cossacks(if there will be such faction), Polish; Russians and Cossacks should get faction bonuses for this unit, or it could be their exclusive unit even I believe
a strong spear or pike unit
size - 100 or more

period: high and late
feats;
- charge 8
- attack 2
- defence 6
- morale 4
- armor 2
- bonus defending against cav. 4
- bonus attacking cav 2
- available preferably only in Kiev and Pereyaslavl

Cossack Sotnia Cavalry

faction: Russian, Cossacks, Polish, Crimean Tartars
a large cavalry unit, not very strong but fast and with decent morale
size - 100 (that must be if its Sotnia)

period: high and late
feats;
- charge 3
- attack 3
- defence 1
- morale 4
- armor 2
- fast
- available preferably in: Kiev, Chernigov, Pereyaslavl, Smolensk, Khazar, Ryazan

Dragoni Cavalry

faction: Polish
a light cav. unit
size - 40

period: high and late
feats;
- charge 4
- attack 2
- defence 3
- morale 4
- armor 2
- fast
- available preferably in: Poland, Volhynia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Kiev, Livonia, Prussia

Lisowczycy

faction: all factions, should be bound to the provinces not factions I believe, as it was hisorically created as a mercenary force
fast light cav.
size - 40

period: high only
feats;
- charge 4
- attack 4
- defence 2
- morale 4
- armor 2
- available preferably in: Moldavia, Carpathia, Wallachia, Kiev, Bulgaria

Semen Cavalry

faction: Russian, Cossacks
light cav.
size - 60

period: high and late
feats;
- charge 3
- attack 2
- defence 0
- morale 2
- armor 2
- available preferably in: Kiev, Pereyaslavl, Crimea, Chernigov, Ryazan, Muscovy

So, those are some of my ideas ( I have more ideas for units, but I'm tired of writing so much right now), I think I could help with other things as well.

About Husaria once more, I think I know how we could relatively easy give them their famous wings - provide them with shield attached to their back, and looking like the wings they had, the only problem (as for myself) would be appropriate coordinates for those wings... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
But there are guys here who'd know how to make it work, hope they'll help. And I'm sure it is possible, only that you need good coordinates (well and make nice image in unit BIF file obviously).

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 00:42

just a thought, maybe the dragoni should have a lil higher defence and attack, but a lil lower charge...after all tey were infantry on horseback.

Trax

05-11-2004, 00:59

Quote[/b] ]And for France I think you should include the Royal Musketeer as the late `best´musketeer unit... I have to think about the stats tho..
Good idea an elite cavalry unit, which can dismount into good infantry too (for sieges).
And then we could have d´Artagnan as an hero
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Eastside Character

05-11-2004, 01:21

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 10 2004,18:42)]just a thought, maybe the dragoni should have a lil higher defence and attack, but a lil lower charge...after all tey were infantry on horseback.
Yeah, maybe, the stats I provided serve more as a guide than as an exactly appropriate model. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
But if Dragoni should have weaker charge, the same should be applied to Semen Cavs. and Lisowczycy.

Regards,
EC

TheSilverKnight

05-11-2004, 02:12

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 05 2004,06:40)]Protestant factions etc.
Protestantism as a religion can not be created by what modders have tried. So every faction will have to be catholic (except for Turks and Russia of course).

Mouzafphaerre

05-11-2004, 03:47

-
AFAIK, existing faiths can be changed, ie Pagans into Protestants, no? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
_

Kanuni

05-11-2004, 04:37

Quote[/b] ]Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.
Everybody thinks so for their nation's cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif For example for me, the Ottoman Sipahi and Jannissary Cavalrymen are the best cavs ever existed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 09:36

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 10 2004,12:03)]1.The power of Poland can be balanced by other means, the low loyalty of her generals, the high rebelliousness of some of the provinces etc. these were the reasons why Poland didn´t conquer the world in real life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

2.+2 attack against cavalry - unnecessary IMHO, their irresistable charge should give them natural edge against other cavalry.
bonus vs armored troops - they aren´t armed with an axe, are they? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Buildable in Livonia - I doubt it very much, the local nobles - the Germans had a very different way of fighting.
So we are in the Engineers Guild now

Answers.

1. I'm going to make most of Polish units quite expensive (or very expensive especially the Husaria),
and requiring more time to build.

Low loyality of generals isn't the best idea.

2. bonus vs. cavalry is really important factor because the effect of the charge doesn't last too long.

And they really were armed with warhammers of different types and names + a brace of pistols, longsword caller 'koncerz' and a heavy sabre designed for them actually.

Generally. Husaria should be very, very powerful, but because it was the main strenght of the Polish army at that time.

Why Livonia - for now Livonia consists of a region which was in Poland for about 200 years ( presently southern Latvia) and in reality some units of the Cavalry were formed there. Of course in case of map changes this could be modified as well.

Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 09:37

My next idea is to modify 'agent units' in the MTW.

1. I'm planning to delete Grand Inquisitors and restrict ordinary Inquisitors to Spain, Portugal, Hapsburgs HRE and probably France and Venetia ( I'm still not sure about it).

2. Assassins will be harder to build - more expensive and take more time to build, Spies only slightly more difficult.

3. Emissaries should be much more difficult to produce - diplomacy wasn't as easy as it is in the vanilla MTW.

4. Religious agents - bishops, priests and so on will be less common and probably restricted to certain periods.

5. New agents - Venetian Envoy - Venetian diplomacy was much more advanced at that time. The agent will be much easier to build than an ordinary Emissary ( especially less time to build - 1 year);
- Protestant Preacher - to spread protestant beliefs in early era (1492+);
- The Jesuits - to convert population in ater ( 1580+) era;

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 09:41

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 10 2004,05:26)]Real good time frames. However, I got a question. I guess my part is to pile up an Ottoman ruler-unit-hero-province info thingy again; this time for post-1492.

We can do it neatly with Mouzapheare. Now what are we doing?
Yes You are right Cebei.
I've got some info about Ottoman army, but only from 1600+ and I think You can add much, much more.

Thanks for Your efforts Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Nomad

05-11-2004, 09:43

Hi Hetman,
As your not planning to make any new Bif's (yet)Are you thinking of using Duke Johns new animations for this mod. His swiss armoured pike might suit most Tercio style pike units, and his dismounted Chiv Knights could be used for many MAA's and dismounted knight units. Not to mention all the other potential uses of his stuff).
oh yes some more unit ideas

Ironsides (Paliamentarian Cuirassiers)
period: high (and maybe also late
faction: English;
Cavalry/Cuirassiers
- size - 40/60
feats;
- charge 6 or 7
- attack 4
- defence 3
- morale 3
- armor 3
- Disciplined
- available preferably only in: Mercia, Wessex, NorthUmbria

New Model Army Pike

period: high
faction: english;
- size - 80-100
feats;
- charge 8
- attack 2
- defence 3
- morale 2
- armor 2
- bonus defending vs cavalry
- available Mercia, Wessex, NorthUmbria

Saxony LifeGuard
faction HRE or Saxony
period High
size 40/60
feats;
- charge 7
- attack 4
- defence 3
- morale 4
- armor 3

- available preferably only in Saxony

Streltsy as Russian spearmen.
Period early/high
size 80/100
available Russian Provinces

Vityez as Gothic knights
early/high
size 40/60
available in Russian provinces

Just a few guestimates whilst I've got some spare time.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 09:53

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 10 2004,04:45)]
Quote[/b] ]2. 1580 - 1648 ( no name yet),

suggestion: religious wars

1.BTW, that polish unit is almost invincible,which isnt exacly true (because Poland would rule the world, LOL)

2.I suggest you make them slow (5 m lance on horseback is not exactly wieldy), and not armour piercing, but give them 'elite' status. I think that would be more accurate.

3.BTW, the +2 bonus should only apply to cavalry that isnt armed with lances themselves, such as lancers.(because the reach is quite similar).

4.Fast cav: german reitar: armed with pistols and sword.

5.I'll put that page into a word doc. BTW, did you receive my email?
1. Fortunatelly the conquest of the world is much, much more difficult than in the game.
And there were no more than 6000 of them, even in 100 000+ armies.

2. The lance was hollowed so it was quite light to use.

And they were faster than Swedish Cuirrassiers or any other heavy cavalry.

3. I'm going to give them +1 bonus, You know they had wings as well.

4. fast would be enough for them. Only eastern cavalry should be very fast e.g. Tartats ( the fastest in the mod)

5. Yes thanks

I'm now going to read it.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 10:10

Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ May 10 2004,22:37)]
Quote[/b] ]Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.
Everybody thinks so for their nation's cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif For example for me, the Ottoman Sipahi and Jannissary Cavalrymen are the best cavs ever existed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Yes they think, but Husaria was the best at that time.

I REALLY CAN PROVE IT.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 10:25

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 10 2004,18:42)]just a thought, maybe the dragoni should have a lil higher defence and attack, but a lil lower charge...after all tey were infantry on horseback.
You are right about ordinary Dragoons, but not when it comes to the Polish ones.
They were fighting mounted most of times as a very efficient ( I mean killrating) light ca.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Cebei

05-11-2004, 10:37

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 11 2004,04:10)]
Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ May 10 2004,22:37)]
Quote[/b] ]Well, they were almost unbeatable, maybe the best cavalry ever existed.
Everybody thinks so for their nation's cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif For example for me, the Ottoman Sipahi and Jannissary Cavalrymen are the best cavs ever existed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Yes they think, but Husaria was the best at that time.

I REALLY CAN PROVE IT.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Are these Polish Tatars? The ones which were attacking panzers with cavalry during WW2?

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 10:58

Ok, some suggestions for units:

Spanish Corselet:
(heavy pike unit)

only spanish homelands (Iberian peninsula, Naples, Lombardy)
size: 250 (thats the real size, change as you see fit)
disciplined
slow
good morale
best 4 ranks deep
armed with 15 feet pikes and a sword
charge 2
attack 4
defence 8 (bonus against cav)
armour 7 (15 kg of armour)

and yes, those guys were impossible to move if they held position.

Spanish pikeman: (lighter version of the corselet)

available to Spanish homelands+Spanish Netherlands

disciplined
normal speed
good morale
best 4 ranks deep
same gear but less armour
charge 3
attack 4
defence 6 (bonus against cav)
armour 4

Spanish Harquebusier

all territories controlled by spain, they rised them in big numbers
unit size 167 (again original size)
fast
good morale
charge 5
attack 5
defence 4
armour 2
armed with Harquebus, a sword and a dagger.

Spanish musketeer:

120 (original size)
long range
slow
disciplined
good morale
charge 4
attack 6
defence 5
armour 1
musket, sword, dagger.

Those 3 types of troops(and yes, 3 beacuse the 2 pikes are versions of the same type of unit) were the elite of the spanish army of the time.They were only inferior in quality to the royal guards.I will stick them in another post.

Those guys were the best infantry in the world until Louis XIV reform of the french army in the 1660's (correct me if the date is wrong).

BTW,about cavs again,I dont see how wings would help you in a charge...I think they were there for estetic purposes more than military ones...

Anyway lets not generalize, the Hussars won all the other cavs they fought, right? That is fair enough, because they adapted to do so and they were created to face their enemies. In the other hand, other types of cav were adopted for other purposes... I dont know how well the hussars would do against a mongol-type army. Very fast and harassing.probably they would be reduced to nothing before engaging. In the other hand, the mongols would be butchered by Cossacks or Ottomans, but Ottomans would be nailed by Hussards if they got hand to hand.... So every unit is good against some type of foe, but not against all of them...

@Nomad, the Vityez or Vityas were more early medieval werent they? correct me if im wrong...

So that is it, confusing isnt it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 11:11

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 10 2004,18:59)]
Quote[/b] ]And for France I think you should include the Royal Musketeer as the late `best´musketeer unit... I have to think about the stats tho..
Good idea an elite cavalry unit, which can dismount into good infantry too (for sieges).
And then we could have d´Artagnan as an hero
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
@trax, I actually thought they should be better infantry than cavalry, and you could dismount them in every battle, no only sieges...

You could build the unit taking the stats for the Spanish musketeer, and changing them to
fast,
smaller unit
elite
armour 0.

They werent that much better than the spanish ones, but they were better organized and had better muskets.

Another general thought...by 1680s some nations introduced bayonettes instead of pikes, is the mod going to reflect that?

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 11:30

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 11 2004,03:37)]My next idea is to modify 'agent units' in the MTW.

1. I'm planning to delete Grand Inquisitors and restrict ordinary Inquisitors to Spain, Portugal, Hapsburgs HRE and probably France and Venetia ( I'm still not sure about it).

2. Assassins will be harder to build - more expensive and take more time to build, Spies only slightly more difficult.

3. Emissaries should be much more difficult to produce - diplomacy wasn't as easy as it is in the vanilla MTW.

4. Religious agents - bishops, priests and so on will be less common and probably restricted to certain periods.

5. New agents - Venetian Envoy - Venetian diplomacy was much more advanced at that time. The agent will be much easier to build than an ordinary Emissary ( especially less time to build - 1 year);
- Protestant Preacher - to spread protestant beliefs in early era (1492+);
- The Jesuits - to convert population in ater ( 1580+) era;

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
I dont think emissaries should be more expensive.COz i use them mostly to remove titles from my gens, and should ALWAYS be able to do that. If not, you will just wait and wait till a gen with good stats appear, wasting time and loyalty and fighting rebellions.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

WOW, 3 consecutive posts, I will take a break... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-zzz.gif

Trax

05-11-2004, 11:34

i think they fought as cavalry most of the time, any way there were only 2 (I think) regiments of them: the black musketeers and one other. I have a book about the real d`Artagnan somewhere, I have to find it and see, what I can find about the Royal Musketeers.

BTW I think your attack and charge values for arquebusiers and musketeers are a little too high. Right now your musketeer has an attack value of 6 equal to Varangian guards in MTW. They can probably slaughter the pikemen in hand to hand right now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 11:52

They actually can. And they actually did. They have a sword and a dagger, so when the enemy got close, they left their muskets and fought as swordsmen.They were REALLY effective against pikes, even more provided that spanish cav was no match for the swedish or even the french except for the lancers. Thats the reason why spanyards used a lot of merc german cavs.

BTW, I dont think the Varang guard could stand a close formation of musketeers shooting...

Also they used Cavalry to transport Corselets faster through the battlefield. I dont think this could be implemented tho.

Another unit I though about is the

Fourageer:
available to all:
very fast inf
low morale
normal status
attack 2
charge 1
defence 3
armour 0

I dont know if this can be done, but their special ability would be to take the weapons of the defeated soldiers and use them during the battle, adopting 3/4 of the other units stats.... but only for infantry units.

eg lets say they attack and somehow defeat a unit of those pikemen i described above...

they would get the following stats:

charge 1
attack 3
defence 4
armour 1
normal speed
still low morale and not disciplined

They could only do it once in a battle tho

What do ye think? Do the experimented modders think this is doable?

Ok, now im definitely going to have a break

Hetman

05-11-2004, 12:20

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 11 2004,04:37)]Are these Polish Tatars? The ones which were attacking panzers with cavalry during WW2?
No I mentioned Polish Husaria.

The Tartars were fighting in one regiment of cavalry at that time, and were very good at it.

Second. Well Cebei Your sources seems to be rather unreliable - Polish Uhlans charging tanks is pure propaganda work Goebbels and Soviet actually.

The cavalry fought very good and caused serious casualities,

and NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER CHARGED ANY KIND OF TANK.

regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 12:37

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 11 2004,04:58)]1.BTW,about cavs again,I dont see how wings would help you in a charge...I think they were there for estetic purposes more than military ones...

2.Anyway lets not generalize, the Hussars won all the other cavs they fought, right? That is fair enough, because they adapted to do so and they were created to face their enemies. In the other hand, other types of cav were adopted for other purposes... I dont know how well the hussars would do against a mongol-type army. Very fast and harassing.probably they would be reduced to nothing before engaging. In the other hand, the mongols would be butchered by Cossacks or Ottomans, but Ottomans would be nailed by Hussards if they got hand to hand.... So every unit is good against some type of foe, but not against all of them...

@Nomad, the Vityez or Vityas were more early medieval werent they? correct me if im wrong...

So that is it, confusing isnt it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
Very good unit ideas.

1. No. Firstly this was to prevent the Tartars to use their lassoo like weapon called arkan.
Secondly - the combo of pennants attached to the long lances and the wings caused fear to enemy horses ( the sound or rather noise).

2. No. The Husaria was used against Tartats many times and because it was quite fast was able to catch them, although light cavalry was necessary to do it properly and in open field. BTW they were not using lances to fight Tartars.

The reason why I rate them so high is that they were quite very good at fighting ALL kinds of enemies - Swedish pikemen, western cavalry, Tartar riders, Russian hordes,
Jannissaries, Ottoman Cavalry, EVEN a fortified Ottoman army
( Chocim 1673) and Cossack infantry in wagons ( Kumiejki 1597).

The unit was a wonder of that time - almost unbeatable for 100 years ( 1580 - 1698) and invincible for 45 years ( 1580- 1625), even when facing 3-5 times bigger armies ( Kircholm 1605 vs Sweden and Klushino 1610 vs Russians and Swedes.

Please check 1 page of the post for a link about the unit and Polish military.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman~:cheers:

Hetman

05-11-2004, 12:44

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 11 2004,05:11)]Another general thought...by 1680s some nations introduced bayonettes instead of pikes, is the mod going to reflect that?
I don't think so. I'm going to avoid implementing unit types similar to the ones used in The NTW.

Second. Somebody asked about 6 months long turns.

I can say it is impossible, it is hardcoded, only Shogun TW's engine allowed such things probably.

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-11-2004, 12:45

Here is the first ( more to be added yet) list of units for the Polish faction.

1. Period

Ussaria light cavalry ( 'serbian' hussars), light, fast, unarmoured,

lance armed, very strong charge ( 6), 2 attack, 1 defence, +1 bonus attacking cavalry, good morale ( or average),

For Poland and Hungary;

Lancers - ordinary very heavily armoured knights;

Mounted Crossbows, - crossbow or arbalester (?),

Strzelcy ( Shooters) cavalry, - compound bow,

+ ordinary western european units at that time.

2.
wybraniecka infantry with muskets, ( and axes, but without bonus vs. armoured troops), similar to Eastside Character's idea,

wybraniecka infantry pikemen, - weaker than ordinary, 'vanilla' pikemen from this period, weaker morale, but still a pikemen unit;

Husaria medium/heavy cavalry, - probably I'll remove the bonus vs. armoured units ability because it wasn't so powerfull in long lasting melee against veavy cavalry, the rest will be the same;

Petyhorcy cavalry, well probably the same as in Eastside's proposal;

Cossacks cavalry, ( they weren't Cossacks in the majority), effective light cavalry with bows and no spear or lance;

Hungarian infantry,

German infantry,

Tartar cavalry, very fast and with good morale;

Zaporohian Cossacks wagon infantry, only if BKB will manage to create the Hussite Bohemian infantry. If yes this is going to be a very powerful defensive unit.

Zaporohian Cossacks infantry, probably the same as ECHaracter proposed.

Szlachta ( Nobles) cavalry, - cheap, undisciplined, light cavalry with low morale ( 1), armed with sabres and easy to get during rebellions for example;

Ukrainian Szlachta cavalry, - better than the above unit - higher morale ( 3-4), replaces Szlachta Cav. in Kiev and Smolensk;

Livonian ( or Courland) Reiter - pistol armed, but used to charge in gallop cavalry, in Livonia only and probably not for Poland only.

3.

Lisowczyk mercenary cavalry - a very good light cavalry available to Poland, Hungary and HRE as buildable mercenaries and to the rest as a mercenary unit.
Very fast ( almost as Tartat units), disciplined, armed with bows, other stats like in Eastside's proposal;
Available in Poland, Volhynia, Lithuania, Kiev, Livonia, Smolensk, Moldavia, Carpathia and Silesia for the factions I've mentioned.

Foreign infantry,
- both units similar to an average infantry units in western Europe at that time.
Foreign pikemen,

Cuirassiers - only in Poland, pistol armed ( 1 'unit' of ammunition) and similar to Swedish Cuirassiers at that time.

Polish Dragoons - fast and armed with a pistol cavalry which can dismount in every battle;

Pancerni cavalry, lance armed ( many were) cavalry with bows.

Polish light cavalry, - very fast and armed with an axe and a bow

As You can see I still do have to think about stats and so on.
And don't worry I'll balance all the units.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman:2thumbs:

Eastside Character

05-11-2004, 12:51

Hello people,

Just one more word about Huasaria, as it appears to be a kind of controversial unit..
They were NOT invincible, in fact they had been beaten quite a few times, especially by Cossacks during the Chmielnicki uprising (around 1648-49). And about their wings; not all of them really used wings, but from what I've read on the subject, the wings (apart from anit-arkan function) simply made those calavrymen look bigger, and the thinking that the sound the wings made is a common misconception, as well trained horses were not affraid of even gunshots, so why should they fear the wings (what about Husaria's steeds, wouldnt they be also affraid of the sound they heard...)? Also in many painting of Hussaria, they are not always with those wings, and yes 'koncerz' they used WAS an armor piercing weapon, it would overpower them too much tho I think.

Regards,
EC

Hetman

05-11-2004, 12:59

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 11 2004,06:51)]Hello people,

Just one more word about Huasaria, as it appears to be a kind of controversial unit..
1.They were NOT invincible, in fact they had been beaten quite a few times, especially by Cossacks during the Chmielnicki uprising (around 1648-49). ,

2.and yes 'koncerz' they used WAS an armor piercing weapon, it would overpower them too much tho I think.

Regards,
EC
EC
1. You are right about it, I can only add that if an idiot commands an army he can waste even the best unit.
And the Cossack-Tartar army was probably the worst enemy for the husaria, because they combined rock hard Cossack infantry units ( wagon infantry) and super-fast Tartat horsemen.

2. As You can see I decided to delete this option.

Regards Cegorach/hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Eastside Character

05-11-2004, 13:02

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 11 2004,06:45)]1.Tartar cavalry, very fast and with good morale;

2.Ukrainian Szlachta cavalry, - better than the above unit - higher morale ( 3-4), replaces Szlachta Cav. in Kiev and Smolensk;
1. What about naming them Lipki or Lipkowie , to make some distinction with Crimean Tartats? I believe they should be available only in Volhynia, Lithuania and maybe Kiev as they were settled in only those regions in fact.

2. Why Ukrainian, when they can be trained also in Smolesnk? What about naming them simply Ruska Szlachta, or Registered Cossacks (if they represent nobility of Russian lands under Polish rule that'd be the most suitable name I believe; historically I mean).

Regards,
EC

Hetman

05-11-2004, 13:02

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 11 2004,06:51)]
One more thing.

The wings really worked, even in the XIXth century cavalry horses were afraid of pennants attached to lances.

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Trax

05-11-2004, 15:24

http://www.fairfax.org.uk/
This is a great source about English army and Civil war in particular. Lots of good reenactment pictures.

Note thet musketeers dont attack with swords, but rather with the butts of their muskets. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

http://www.fairfax.org.uk/MAIN....ket.jpg (http://www.fairfax.org.uk/MAIN/GALLERY/gallery22/images3/clubmusket.jpg)

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 17:12

just had another idea... as we are all discussing units why dont you post all the units descriptions in thread along with pictures if there are any, just so we know what are we talking about, coz for me it is hard to distinguish between the different types of polish infantry you mentioned, could be easier with some pics....just a suggestion...

BTW, go u think that the furageers can be implemented? It would be an interesting unit available to all armies.

@ Trax, spanish musketeers and even the harquebusiers left the firearms and fought with swords in the middle of the pike formations,between the pikes, so the pikers were unprotected unless they dropped their weapons. That is, they left their firearms if they were so close they couldnt continue firing...

I'll describe for you the (extremely) expensive guard troops, and the wallons and italians later. Also i have to describe the spanish cav and artillery.

BTW, bear in mind that spanish infantry was the best of Europe between 1500-1648. Another thought i had is that as they had some reputation of being cruel to the native population, I think everywhere spanish troops are employed other than catholic countries, they should lower happiness.
Again if that is doable.

And i thought that if the hussars cause fear to horses they shouldnt cause fear to pikemen....maybe to infantry other than pikes. Just a suggestion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Cebei

05-11-2004, 17:30

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 11 2004,06:20)]
Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 11 2004,04:37)]Are these Polish Tatars? The ones which were attacking panzers with cavalry during WW2?
No I mentioned Polish Husaria.

The Tartars were fighting in one regiment of cavalry at that time, and were very good at it.

Second. Well Cebei Your sources seems to be rather unreliable - Polish Uhlans charging tanks is pure propaganda work Goebbels and Soviet actually.

The cavalry fought very good and caused serious casualities,

and NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER CHARGED ANY KIND OF TANK.

regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hehe my source is a Polish visiting instructor named Korap-Karpowicz who was in our university two years ago. We were speaking of Turkic-Muslim people, tatars mainly, and he told me story of Polish tatars charging German panzers. Actually didnt make much sense initially and took it with a pinch of salt; I thus remembered that discussion when you mentioned the cavalry unit.

It was just a question, so thanks, you already answered it. I should have guessed it when the guy told me he was a baron. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Trax

05-11-2004, 18:12

Quote[/b] ]@ Trax, spanish musketeers and even the harquebusiers left the firearms and fought with swords in the middle of the pike formations,between the pikes, so the pikers were unprotected unless they dropped their weapons. That is, they left their firearms if they were so close they couldnt continue firing...

Hmmm..
Maybe then give to them Trebizond archer or Byzantine infantry like stats, then they would be still effective against other infantry in hand to hand, but not almost invincible against cavalry, which should be able to easily overrun them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 18:18

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 11 2004,12:12)]
Quote[/b] ]@ Trax, spanish musketeers and even the harquebusiers left the firearms and fought with swords in the middle of the pike formations,between the pikes, so the pikers were unprotected unless they dropped their weapons. That is, they left their firearms if they were so close they couldnt continue firing...

Hmmm..
Maybe then give to them Trebizond archer or Byzantine infantry like stats, then they would be still effective against other infantry in hand to hand, but not almost invincible against cavalry, which should be able to easily overrun them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
okay, you right, cavs still sould be able to nail them...
It is just that the spanish didnt have any other shock infantry, so the musketeers and harquebusiers were as hand to hand troops as they were ranged troops, thats the reasno for the high stats.
So you are saying that the defence should be lower... Even for light cavs, they still should be tough, tho...

maybe defence 3 for the Harquebus, and 4 for the musketeer?

Trax

05-11-2004, 18:43

Playtesting will show some day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ther was´t much shock infantry around anyway, but didn´t the Spanish have some swordsmen with small shield in early 16th cantury, which were quite effective against pikes.

BTW the site about tercios mentioned that sometimes the skirmishing arquebusiers were protected from cavalry by detachment of halbardiers.

Some unit pictures:
Swedish and Imperial units
http://members.tripod.com/Strv102r/gustaf_ii_adolf10.htm

King´s musketeer
http://www.authenticwardrobe.com/Musketeer/musketeer.html

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 22:01

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 11 2004,12:43)]Playtesting will show some day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ther was´t much shock infantry around anyway, but didn´t the Spanish have some swordsmen with small shield in early 16th cantury, which were quite effective against pikes.

BTW the site about tercios mentioned that sometimes the skirmishing arquebusiers were protected from cavalry by detachment of halbardiers.

Some unit pictures:
Swedish and Imperial units
http://members.tripod.com/Strv102r/gustaf_ii_adolf10.htm

King´s musketeer
http://www.authenticwardrobe.com/Musketeer/musketeer.html
True. The harquebusiers were no match for cav, specially if flanked, the inly thing they did well against cavalry was a close formation volley, but they still had swords.... anyway, im not saying they had bonuses defending against cavs, but that they were hard to take out for type of troop.

And YES, i volunteer for playtesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif whenever it comes.

That early XVI century inf was the remainder of the middle ages and was developed to counter the swiss pikemen, and the diverse pike-type units, so the spanish cavalry had clear way. As i said before *points up the thread vaguely* the Spanish didnt have superior cavalry.(except the royal guards, but you wouldnt usually see them on a battlefield).

In the XVII cent the spanish almost forgot the halberd as a massed weapon. only officers used them (sergeants mostly)

BTW, Hetman, good idea of making the pistols as 1 reload weapon, didnt think about that, but maybe for some units they should be 2 bullets (because some had 2 pistols).And they should be short range. Because the carabinieri would have a carabin also with one bullet but longer range.

Eastside Character

05-11-2004, 23:20

Hello everyone,

As someone here requested, here are some pics of units:

Racowie Cavalry
early era, later evolved into Husaria, light lancers, fast, irresistible charge, good morale, good attack, very good defence, disciplined, elite, vulnerable to missiles, have shields, Poland, Volhynia, Moldavia, Carpathia, Kiev, Lithuania, Wallachia, Hungary; a pic:
http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/develop/Pics/p26.jpg

Wybraniecka Infantry
http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/develop/Pics/p08.jpg

Husaria
http://husaria1.webpark.pl/gfx/husarz3d.jpghttp://www.szkolawlombard.org/images/Husarz2.jpg

Pancerny Cavalry
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/images/%20pancerny%20na%20koniu.jpghttp://www.wawel.net/images/malar/kossak_juliusz/Rotmistrz_pancerny.jpeg

Lisowczycy Mercenary Cavalry
http://www.wawel.net/images/malar/brandt/Jezdziec.jpeghttp://pl.wikipedia.org/upload/d/db/Lisowczyk_1.jpg

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-11-2004, 23:46

Thanks EC, now, at least we know (and I refer to all ignorats that, like me, dont know much about polish warfare) how they looked like, and what kind of stats they might have.

BTW, theres no way I can upload a pic from my PC, do I really need it on a webpage first?

O yah, I can imagine it right now, Hussars charging a tank

Die, damn Iron thing I have my wings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

BTW, the spanish also had heavy crossbows, REALLY heavy guys.
Armour piercing,
slow
normal morale (2)
charge 0
attack 3
defence 2
armour 5

they had a sword in addition to the xbow, but the xbow was just too unwieldy to defend effectively with the sword.

Another unit:

Encamisado: (literally guy in a shirt)
This wasnt an actual unit, but it had very specific purposes and elite soldiers hadpicked from the ordinary men.
Something like the Ninjas in STW.

unit size: 17
elite
very good morale
fast
can hide anywhere
charge 3
attack 5
defence 3
armour 1

armed with 2 pistols, a sword and a dagger.
moslty used in the Flemish territories, but could be recruited anywhere.

Ok, its too late, Im gonna go get some sleep.

TheSilverKnight

05-11-2004, 23:56

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 10 2004,21:47)]-
AFAIK, existing faiths can be changed, ie Pagans into Protestants, no? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
_
I think.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Trax

05-12-2004, 00:17

Pistols - 2 shots very short reload time to represent the second pistol, range long enough to avoid the heavy cavalry to begin skirmishing away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
Accuracy very bad armour penetration very low.

Actually, some cavalry units could have more ammo so they can fight in caracole like Imperials in 30 years war.
The Swedish cavalry charging with cold steel was a nasty surprise for them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

Hetman

05-12-2004, 08:36

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 11 2004,18:17)]Actually, some cavalry units could have more ammo so they can fight in caracole like Imperials in 30 years war.
The Swedish cavalry charging with cold steel was a nasty surprise for them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
Yeah, I remember a description of the caracole tactic used in front of the Polish cavalry at Klushino 1610.
They simply charged when Swedish reiters were reloading.~:D

Hetman/Cegorach

Hetman

05-12-2004, 08:38

Several answers here.

Mouzapheare

But let's please start it a bit earlier than 1492. I say 1481. Why? Simple: With little anachronisme, we can include Gem Sultan's revolt (rebels to the east) and give Ottomans a pain to deal with. Otherwise, they will be overpowered.

I think I it is possible to change the starting time to 1480, although it is quite an abstract date.

We can also include the Qurtuba Saltanat in Iberia (Cordoba), which will have been wiped off in 1492...

ONLY if You are able to create a reasonably realistic unit roster for the faction in 'high' and 'late' era.

SwordsMaster

I think the breakpoint should be the death of emperor Charles I of Spain (Charles V of HRE) because the HRE separated from Spain and they became independent of each other. I think its a major breakpoint.

What about 1570 ?

'Anyways, what I thought about is that musquets/harquebus in formation should cause fear to all cavalry except german cuirassers (those guys had bulletproof armour which harquebuses couldnt trespass) if they charge from the front. I dont know if that is doable tho.'

They do cause fear to enemy units with shooting, but not in h-t-h combat. If we implemented this we would create a very strange unit which would be avoided by the cavalry only because they'd be afraid of the harquebuses even without any pikemen nearby.

Nomad

Hi Hetman,
As your not planning to make any new Bif's (yet)Are you thinking of using Duke Johns new animations for this mod. His swiss armoured pike might suit most Tercio style pike units, and his dismounted Chiv Knights could be used for many MAA's and dismounted knight units. Not to mention all the other potential uses of his stuff).

There is a problem of additional factions which very often require additional ( custom 1, custom 2 and so on) BIF files, although I like the idea the new animations are great I think we can find spare slots to use - we don't need Duke John's archers for example.

SwordsMaster

I dont think emissaries should be more expensive.COz i use them mostly to remove titles from my gens, and should ALWAYS be able to do that.

How many do You need for that purpose.

I dont know if this can be done, but their special ability would be to take the weapons of the defeated soldiers and use them during the battle, adopting 3/4 of the other units stats.... but only for infantry units.

No. Unitstats can't be modified during a battle. Please think about different ways to recreate the unit in the mod.

@Nomad, the Vityez or Vityas were more early medieval werent they? correct me if im wrong...

Yes, the Russian military at that time is quite different than in other european countries. They were using 'hulajgorods' ( I don't know how to spell it correctly) 'siege towers' armed with light cannons supported with numerous infantry and cavalrymen.

I guess we need somebody from Russia to provide much necessary info.

Eastside Character

What about naming them Lipki or Lipkowie , to make some distinction with Crimean Tartats? I believe they should be available only in Volhynia, Lithuania and maybe Kiev as they were settled in only those regions in fact.

YOU are absolutely right. They should be different from Crimean 'cousins'. HINT I'm going to add 2-3 different cavalry unit types for the Crimean Tartars.

Why Ukrainian, when they can be trained also in Smolesnk? What about naming them simply Ruska Szlachta, or Registered Cossacks (if they represent nobility of Russian lands under Polish rule that'd be the most suitable name I believe; historically I mean).

Yes, a different name is necessary, but I can't find any suitable translation for Kresowa Szlachta - I mean veteran Noble Levy.
Maybe Frontier Szlachta ?
About Registered Cossacks - I believe the ordinary Zaporohian Cossacks
are enough.

EVERYONE

Please add descriptions for the units if You feel You have a suitable one.

PROJECTILE STATS

The mod requires several, different types of firearms and not only.

Here is my proposal

MTLG - cavalry bow - use this for compound bow, which was in use in many armies of the Eastern Europe;

LONG - ordinary longbow - for English longbowmen from late XVth century
and for Scottish mercenary archers in the XVIth;

SBOW - ordinary bow - I think we don't really need this kind of weapon, so maybe we can use the entry for a gunpowder weapon - still to decide which one - maybe Jannissary Arquebus, it was better because of better quality ( e.g. more resilent metal alloys) - better range than ordinary muskets, although slightly longer reload time.

NINJ - ninja star - I'm going to use this for pistols;

HGUN - handgun - I don't think we really need old-fashioned firearms, so why not use this for the matchlock musket;

ARQB - present arquebus entry. I think we can leave this as it is;

CROSSBOW - I think we don't need this weapon, arbalest should be enough
The entry could be used for wheellock musket or other firearm

ARBALEST - let's leave this the way it is.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Hetman

05-12-2004, 08:43

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ May 11 2004,11:30)]I should have guessed it when the guy told me he was a baron. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
When it comes to this, he probably was right, but only because... in Poland most of the society can claim that they are nobles

I'll explain tomorrow.

Regards Cegorach/hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-12-2004, 11:24

SwordsMaster

I think everywhere spanish troops are employed other than catholic countries, they should lower happiness.
Again if that is doable.

Unfortunatelly not, but it is possible to give for some units the ability to affect religious beliefs of local population.

And i thought that if the hussars cause fear to horses they shouldnt cause fear to pikemen....maybe to infantry other than pikes. Just a suggestion.

The problem is that fear works in quite different way in the game than in the real life. I'm going to make all pikemen units to fear of Husaria only because there is no other way to give them an adventage when fighting pikemen. In reality they were the only cavalry which was able to crush pikemen in a head on charge. Their 5,5 meter long hollow lances were designed to allow this.
So in game they'll have bonus fighting enemy cavalry ( fear in reality)
and cause fear to pikemen ( bonus charging them in reality).

Encamisado
can hide anywhere
armed with 2 pistols, a sword and a dagger.

You'll have to choose 'hide or pistol' probably, because they would reveal themselves as soon as they shoot. I think we can give them bonus vs. armoured troops to represent their pistols used in a melee rather before.
Great unit idea, though.

Cebei

my source is a Polish visiting instructor named Korap-Karpowicz

The saddest thing about this fairy tale is that quite many Poles believed in this propaganda bull****, even one of the greatest Polish directors Andrzej Wajda had to ( was persuaded) recreate this in Lotna.

THE REAL SOURCE of this legend is an event which happened on the 2nd September 1939. The Polish cavalry brigade ( called Pomorze or Pomerania) was ordered to stop German 2nd Infantry Division (Mechanized - most were not). One of cavalry regiment charged a battalion of infantry at Krojanty - as far as I remember. They crushed the unit and the terriffied Germans fled, but while the horsemen were regrouping they were assaulted by german armoured vehicles. The Poles retreated suffering severe losses. On the bright side after the charge THE WHOLE German division refused to move for one day or even two.
During the war Polish cavalry units were elite, which could be compared to paratroopers and fought wery efficiently, many times stopping much larger enemy ( German or Soviet) forces.
The fairy tale was created to humiliate the Poles during the war and to
offend pre-wartime Poland during the Communist regime.

It was just a question, so thanks, you already answered it. I should have guessed it when the guy told me he was a baron.

Why the Poles are all nobles ? Quite simple in late Medieval and early XVIth century Polish Szlachta ( Nobles) refused to use any types of ranks ( e.g. no barons, counts and so on), because of that the number of nobles was the largest in the world, or probably only in Japan the numbers could be the same. Very often the period between XVIth and XVIIIth century is called 'the republic of nobles' - about 10 % of the population were nobles - it is 10 times more than in England, 5 times than in France and 2 times than in Spain.
In later centuries the population was growing and many more 'connections' were possible - so presently it is quite possible that most of the Poles are nobles.
So there is nothing special in being a noble in Poland and nothing to be too proud about this. Everyone is greeted using the word 'Pan' ( Lord) or 'Pani' ( Madam), so considering the language everyone is a Nobleman - baron or prince if You like. This man was an idiot if he really was so proud of being baron. So You can call me prince if You like.

Eastside Character

Racowie Cavalry

They were often called Ussaria in Poland. And they were used in Hungarian armies as well. Firsr Racowie/Ussaria/Serbian hussars were Serbs of course.

very good defence

I don't really think so. They were unarmoured most of times and were light cavalry.

vulnerable to missiles, have shields

As far as I know only units without shields can be vulnerable to missiles.

Lisowczycy Mercenary Cavalry

Very good paintings. I like especially the one on the left - very mean.

The second one is by Rembrandt and I think it is very good for Polish light cavalry in 'late' era.

Trax

Actually, some cavalry units could have more ammo so they can fight in caracole like Imperials in 30 years war.

Yes, it is a very good idea, but it is possible that they would shoot too often.

GENERALLY

I wrote first description for the mod.

Lisowczyk Mercenary Cavalry

{Powerty stricken nobles, deserters, even convicted criminals fill the ranks of this light cavalry. Although the scums of Polish society under the command of colonel iron-hard Lisowski they fight as a very effective fast cavalry. Disciplined and brave during the battle they still revel in looting and worse when the battle is over.}

Now You'll understand why I love them.

What do You think about preparing all the Info_Pics ( the ones in the production panel) using historical paintings, I tried this several times and the result is simply stunning.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 11:57

Quote[/b] ]Encamisado
can hide anywhere
armed with 2 pistols, a sword and a dagger.

I think if you turn off the fire at will, they wont reveal themselves. You are right, once they shoot they are revealed, but the same happened with the ninjas.

The unit itself has white shirt (that is why they were called encamisados), and darker bottom part. They wear no helmet nor hats, and only a leather ciurasse under the shirt.

As historical background, they wore white shirts so they could see each other in the middle of the attacks. It was a unique spanish way of warfare used in coups de main usually at night, so they obvously didnt carry drums and flags, thats the reason for the white shirts.

In a more general manner, the spanish military flag was some background (depending on the army corps) and ALWAYS a red burgundian cross.

As the spanish soldiers didnt wear uniforms, they had that red cross sewed somewhere on the cloths they wore.

Quote[/b] ]What about 1570 ?

seems good enough.

Quote[/b] ]CROSSBOW - I think we don't need this weapon, arbalest should be enough
The entry could be used for wheellock musket or other firearm

Then change my description of xbowmen to arbalesters.

Quote[/b] ]SwordsMaster

I think everywhere spanish troops are employed other than catholic countries, they should lower happiness.
Again if that is doable.

Unfortunatelly not, but it is possible to give for some units the ability to affect religious beliefs of local population.

And i thought that if the hussars cause fear to horses they shouldnt cause fear to pikemen....maybe to infantry other than pikes. Just a suggestion.

The problem is that fear works in quite different way in the game than in the real life. I'm going to make all pikemen units to fear of Husaria only because there is no other way to give them an adventage when fighting pikemen. In reality they were the only cavalry which was able to crush pikemen in a head on charge. Their 5,5 meter long hollow lances were designed to allow this.
So in game they'll have bonus fighting enemy cavalry ( fear in reality)
and cause fear to pikemen ( bonus charging them in reality).

Ok, they could increase catholic zeal in catholic provs, and make increasingly catholic non-catholic provs.

Fair enough for the Hussars. But to counter a lil bit that combat against pikes, give pikemen somewhat higher morale. Just to keep things balanced. Even in Hussars could crush pikes head on, it was not a very clever idea, i guess, and they would still take severe losses.

Quote[/b] ]I dont think emissaries should be more expensive.COz i use them mostly to remove titles from my gens, and should ALWAYS be able to do that.

How many do You need for that purpose.

I dont know if this can be done, but their special ability would be to take the weapons of the defeated soldiers and use them during the battle, adopting 3/4 of the other units stats.... but only for infantry units.

No. Unitstats can't be modified during a battle. Please think about different ways to recreate the unit in the mod.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

1-If you are going to make emissaries more expensive, then allow everyone to start with 2 or 3 of them from the beginning.

2-Then they should be a skirmishing unit, armed with a pistol, and a dagger.

Or alternatively, maybe so you could choose at the beginning of the battle what kind of unit did you want them to be of the ones you have and excluding cavs, and they would get 3/4 of that units stats as described above.

That looks too complicated tho... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

Trax

05-12-2004, 11:57

Why not concentrate first on one era and when its ready the others could follow?

I think the second era should begin with most important protestant countries already in place (the conversion of Henry VIII seems to be logical)
In that case people who will play full campaign will find themselves in entirely catholic Europe till the end though.

1st era 1492-1536 ?
2nd era 1536-1648 Wars of Religion
3rd era 1648-1700 The Sun Kings Ambition (Louis XIV against more or less everybody else)

wilpuri

05-12-2004, 12:04

I really hope that this mod gets done I have been itching for a pike & musket mod for ages http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

Here is one unit description I can think of (my favourite unit of the 30-year war)

Faction: Swedes, trained in Finland. (only available in the 30-year war period)

Hakkapeliitta Cavalry:
After the wars between Poland and Sweden-Finland (1617-18 and 1621-29), Gustav Adolf II reorganized and developed the cavalry of the kingdom. Recruited from among the farmers and horse-owning peasants, these superb horsemen get their name from their fierce battle cry Hakkaa päälle. The Hakkapeliitta Cavalry form an ill-disciplined, but fearsome unit. Their main weapon is their speed and their fierce, irresistible charge, where cold steel and horse alike serve as a weapon. Their light armor gives them some protection in meleé. The king was so impressed with his Finnish cavalry, that he would always have them on the right flank, where he himself was positioned.

Some stats would be irresistible charge, good against other cavalry, cause fear, and may be a bonus when attacking cavalry...

http://www.elvijapaulilappalaisensukuseura.fi/Histooria/Pussinen/kuva31.jpg

A very dramatic illustration of the charge of the Hackapels.

I also found a good picture of Sweden-Finlands infantry (time period: 1600 and onwards)
http://www.elvijapaulilappalaisensukuseura.fi/Histooria/Pussinen/kuva1.jpg

Swedish artillery (I that since Swedish artillery was slightly superior, at least during the 17th century, it should be also represented in the game).
http://www.elvijapaulilappalaisensukuseura.fi/Histooria/Pussinen/kuva23.jpg
During the reign of Gustav Adolf II, Swedish artillery was the most effiecient artillery on the battle field. Well drilled artillery crews and iron discipline enabled these crews to outgun their opponents
may be slightly faster loading time could represent this? I remember reading that they did load/shoot faster than their counterparts.

I've been wondering, how are you going to implement the swedish infantry companies, which comprised both musketeers and pikemen? The basic unit of the sweish infantry comprised of 72 musketeers and 54 pikemen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Eastside Character

05-12-2004, 12:26

Quote[/b] ]What do You think about preparing all the Info_Pics ( the ones in the production panel) using historical paintings, I tried this several times and the result is simply stunning.

Certainly using paintings for info pics is not a bad idea, obviously provided that there are paintings of all the units which will be present in this mod.

Some time ago, when I made myself Panceni units as late campaign units for Medieval(one with bow and one with pistols), I also used paintings for their info pics, only that I altered them a bit, to suit medieval graphical layout. Here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/infopics.html?1084360299890), you can see those info pics I made then. I actually enjoy doing graphic work of that kind, so if you ever needed sth like this to be done, you can let me know, Hetman.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 12:35

Quote[/b] ]I've been wondering, how are you going to implement the swedish infantry companies, which comprised both musketeers and pikemen? The basic unit of the sweish infantry comprised of 72 musketeers and 54 pikemen.
I guess you will train units of 72 musketeers and a different unit of 54 pikemen for Sweden and then combine them as you see fit.Thats just a guess tho.

Just thought of another detail:

1st- what map are you gonna use? We will have to add more provs for sure, but to do that we will have to remove existing ones, am I right?

2nd- Spanish armies were called Tercios. But a Tercio was composed of more than 3000 men, which cant be done.
So my suggestion is to call Tercio an army when that army grows to 800 men. So for instance, the Tercio of Navarre would be a unit of more than 800 men if the last unit added to the stack to reach the 800 was from Navarre.

wow, EC, beautyful pics.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

wilpuri

05-12-2004, 12:46

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 12 2004,06:35)]2nd- Spanish armies were called Tercios. But a Tercio was composed of more than 3000 men, which cant be done.
So my suggestion is to call Tercio an army when that army grows to 800 men. So for instance, the Tercio of Navarre would be a unit of more than 800 men if the last unit added to the stack to reach the 800 was from Navarre.

wow, EC, beautyful pics.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Weren't the infantry squares of the imperials also called tercios?

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 12:51

http://www.iupui.edu/~lmena1/velazquez/breda.jpg

Image of the surrender of Nassau in Breda (Netherlands) to the spanish general Spinola (the dutch are in the left hand side, and the spanish on the right hand side of the central image.

It isnt too descriptive, but it might be helpful. The picture is done in the XVII cent by the spanish royal painter Velazquez.

hope you like it

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 12:54

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 12 2004,06:46)]
Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 12 2004,06:35)]2nd- Spanish armies were called Tercios. But a Tercio was composed of more than 3000 men, which cant be done.
So my suggestion is to call Tercio an army when that army grows to 800 men. So for instance, the Tercio of Navarre would be a unit of more than 800 men if the last unit added to the stack to reach the 800 was from Navarre.

wow, EC, beautyful pics.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Weren't the infantry squares of the imperials also called tercios?
Yes, but a Tercio originally was a spanish name for a specific type of army. Charles V emperor of the HRE used spanish amries to pacify the HRE, so I guess they adopted the name. But it still was a spanish type of army.

TheSilverKnight

05-12-2004, 12:57

I think you should extend the campaign to go to 1715 (death of Louis XIV, and the signing of the treaties which ended the War of Spanish Succession), just to make it more accurate.

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 13:23

We wanted to stop before the war even started, because the bayonette was introduced and America cant be represented...

HEY, my post 200. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Trax

05-12-2004, 13:47

The Franch introduced the bayonet around 1680, I think it gave them great advantage, so in the mod we should have at least some grenadier (elite) units with the best and most modern equipment (flintlock muskets and bayonets).

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 13:50

Hetman said he didnt want any NTW type units, so I guesss we'll have to stick to the pikes and muskets.

@mods Guys, dont you think this deserves a sticky? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 15:35

BTW guys, did you realize that we all started saying our mod at some point, referring to Hetmans idea. We are starting to feel really involved into this... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Ostrogski

05-12-2004, 18:38

Some links about husaria, sorry polish language:

http://www.husaria.jest.pl/

http://www.kawaleria-polska.pl/modules....tid=138 (http://www.kawaleria-polska.pl/modules.php?name=Publikacje&sop=viewarticle&artid=138)

SwordsMaster

05-12-2004, 23:03

hmm yeah...google translates polish?
anyways the pics are good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hetman

05-13-2004, 08:17

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 12 2004,05:57)]Even in Hussars could crush pikes head on, it was not a very clever idea, i guess, and they would still take severe losses.

Well... not, check Your e-mail I'm sending You something about them (and not only).

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-13-2004, 08:21

Hello

IDEAS for the CRIMEAN TARTARS

Nogay Tartars - very weak, but very fast cavalry. In reality many poorest Tartars were armed with 'maslak' ( a horse jaw on a stick), of course they were not the majority and avoided enemy soldiers if possible.

Nogay Tartars - strong charge ( 4), attack 1, defense 1, armour 1, morale 3 ( only), very fast - 12-13 moving, 26 running, 29 charging,
using graphs. of Alan Mercenary Cavalry - very low requirements and very cheap, unit size 60-100;
for Crimean Tartars, Ottomans - in Crimea,Khazar,Moldavia, Kiev.

Tartar Horsemen - much better, although low requirements.

Very strong charge ( 5), 3 attack, 2 defense, 2 armour, 4 morale, disciplined, very fast ( as above), armed with compound bows, textures of presently used Mongol Horse Archers, unit size 50-60.
for Crimean Tartars, Ottomans, Poland - in Crimea, Khazar, Moldavia maybe.

Tartar Scouts - unique unit.

Strong charge ( 4), 3 attack, 2 defense, 2 armour, 6 morale, disciplined, very fast, quite high requirements because MAY HIDE IN OPEN, or rather behind a small hill, in long grass and so on.
Unit size 20.
for Crimean Tartars, Ottomans, Poland - in Crimea only.
Present Steppe Cavalry.

Crimean Cavalry - very strong charge ( 6), 4 attack, 3 defense, 4 armour, 6 morale, disciplined, fast ( 11 move, 21 run, 23 charge), compound bows, present Steppe Heavy Cavalry, high requirements.
For Crimean Tartars, Ottomans, Poland - in Crimea only.
Unit size 40-50.
Bodyguard unit for the Crimean Tartars faction.

FACTIONS

- Catholic - Spain, Portugal, France, Venetia, Poland, Hapsburg HRE; Pope ( for excommunic. and granting cash, no Crusades or Jihads);

- Protestant - England, Denmark, Sweden, Brandenburg, Saxony, Scotland, Hungary; Transylvania ( instead of Hungary in 'high')

- Muslim - Ottoman Empire, Crimean Tartars ( probably only in 'early'), Persia ( expanded map required for the faction);

- Orthodox - Russia, Ukraine ( only in 'late');

20 factions - Pope not playable,

First. Do we need more factions, especially something in Italia, if yes what to choose ?

Second. Protestant religion if impossible or too hard to implement it soon why not make all protestant countries ORTHODOX ?
I know one of the LORDS is going to 'create' protestants, but I'm not sure if he is going to succeed.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Nomad

05-13-2004, 09:03

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
A late reply for your qustion Hetman,
regarding the Vityez.
You said that they might be more early medieval. I tacked them on the list because they appeared in CDV,s Cossacks Game (the developers are Russian, you'd think they'd know there stuff, but maybe not) So I think they might have still been in use XVIth century. But couldn't swear to it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

SwordsMaster

05-13-2004, 10:58

Quote[/b] ]A late reply for your qustion Hetman,
regarding the Vityez.
You said that they might be more early medieval. I tacked them on the list because they appeared in CDV,s Cossacks Game (the developers are Russian, you'd think they'd know there stuff, but maybe not) So I think they might have still been in use XVIth century. But couldn't swear to it.

Well, I asked my dad (hes russian) and he said that the Vityaz were very early medieval heavy cavalry for the russian princes. Somewhere around IX-XI cent. So the guys of Cossacks just made up the unit to reflect that Russia had rather obsolete army or something, or just used the name for estetic reasons.

BTW, it was my comment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

@ hetman, i didnt receive any email yet, are you sure about the email address, or maybe the attachement was very large?

Coz i have to tidy up my storage space. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

The Ideas for tartars are really good, but as they were really light cav, theyr armour shouldnt get any higher than 2. I know it doesnt in your units, but what if you get armour enhacements? They could finish with armor 5 which is not light or even historically accurate. Maybe the Tartar cavalry shouldnt get armour upgrades, but only moral improvement or something.

The prob with the period is that everyone tended to wear less armour but better weapons as time passed, so i dont really see the point of having armourer buildings in the mod.

Another suggestion is for Cossacks ( Nomad gave me the idea, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif ) Is cossacks horse archers.

I remember seeing in a cossack museum in Zaporozhye, 3 meter bows fired from horseback, maybe we should implement them as well...

Im reading the guides in the Repository, (dont have much modding experience) so i might be able to help you with something after the 1st of june.

Trax

05-13-2004, 11:14

Well, if there is some problems with the protestant religion at the moment, why not concentrate on the first era first, so there no Protestants around yet?

Hetman

05-13-2004, 11:48

Massive reply here.

SwordsMaster

I think if you turn off the fire at will, they wont reveal themselves. You are right, once they shoot they are revealed, but the same happened with the ninjas.

The question is the AI will waste this unit's ability if armed with a ranged weapon. Of course if a human player is the commander it is entirely different matter. I believe we'll have to choose.

In a more general manner, the spanish military flag was some background (depending on the army corps) and ALWAYS a red burgundian cross.

Please, send me the flag You think is the most adequate. Changing the flag is very simple.

Ok, they could increase catholic zeal in catholic provs, and make increasingly catholic non-catholic provs.

Yes, it seems to be the best solution, but probably not every unit should have this ability.

But to counter a lil bit that combat against pikes, give pikemen somewhat higher morale.

I'm going to but because of lots of gunpowder weapons on battlefields at that time.

1-If you are going to make emissaries more expensive, then allow everyone to start with 2 or 3 of them from the beginning.

Should be easy to implement.

Then they should be a skirmishing unit, armed with a pistol, and a dagger.

How many bullets ?

Or alternatively(...)That looks too complicated tho...

Yes and impossible too...

Trax

Why not concentrate first on one era and when its ready the others could follow?

First I need more info concerning such cauntries as Sweden, England, France, Italian states at that time. I mean every kind of info - trade goods, units, provincional income and titles and so on.

In that case people who will play full campaign will find themselves in entirely catholic Europe till the end though.

Only if the timeframe for 'high' and 'late' era is going to be changed.

1st era 1492-1536 ?

It ends too early. I think that 'high' era should start in 1572 - the massacre of Hugenots in Paris and next period of religious wars in Europe. This way we'll get the Dutch in 'high'.

2nd era 1536-1648 Wars of Religion

Rather the Religious Wars or the Religious Turmoil.

3rd era 1648-1700 The Sun King's Ambition (Louis XIV against more or less everybody else)

Good idea

wilpuri

I really hope that this mod gets done I have been itching for a pike & musket mod for ages

So do I.

Hakkapeliitta Cavalry

I modified the description, because it's too long. Additional info, like about the reforms of the army could be added to faction descriptions from 'choose your faction campaign panel'.

EVERYONE - The descriptions should be no longer than 5 lines when written in Notepad. The unit panel description cuts anything too long.

So here it is:
Hakkapeliitta Cavalry
{Recruited from among the Finnish farmers and horse-owning peasants, these superb horsemen get their name from their fierce battle cry. The Hakkapeliitta Cavalry form an ill-disciplined, but fearsome unit. Their main weapon is their speed and their fierce, irresistible charge, where cold steel and horse alike serve as a weapon.}

Some stats would be irresistible charge, good against other cavalry, cause fear, and may be a bonus when attacking cavalry...

OK, irresistible charge, +1 bonus to attack enemy cavalry, fast, morale 5 (excellent). Fearcausing is a little too much for them, though - fear is too powerful to be used too often.

I've been wondering, how are you going to implement the swedish infantry companies, which comprised both musketeers and pikemen? The basic unit of the sweish infantry comprised of 72 musketeers and 54 pikemen.

Two different units, although probably different numbers.

During the reign of Gustav Adolf II, Swedish artillery was the most effiecient artillery on the battle field.

It is possible to add 'Swedish cannons' or something similar, but I'm not sure.

SwordsMaster

1st- what map are you gonna use? We will have to add more provs for sure, but to do that we will have to remove existing ones, am I right?

I'm going to wait for next WesW's MedMod map and NTW new map to decide. Or even someone is going make something for this mod actually, I'm not sure though.
For now the old MTW map will be used, although I'll remove the sill 'landbridges' and add two ( Finland-Sweden and Crimea-Moldavia), but now I still don't know how to do this.

So my suggestion is to call Tercio an army when that army grows to 800 men. So for instance, the Tercio of Navarre would be a unit of more than 800 men if the last unit added to the stack to reach the 800 was from Navarre.

Only units can be called, not armies - as far as I know.

It isnt too descriptive, but it might be helpful. The picture is done in the XVII cent by the spanish royal painter Velazquez.

I like Velasquez, and I think the painting can be used itn the mod.

TheSilverKnight

I think you should extend the campaign to go to 1715 (death of Louis XIV, and the signing of the treaties which ended the War of Spanish Succession), just to make it more accurate.

Too complicated, too many new units, most from the NTW.

Trax

The Franch introduced the bayonet around 1680, I think it gave them great advantage, so in the mod we should have at least some grenadier (elite) units with the best and most modern equipment (flintlock muskets and bayonets).

It is possible to add one or two units if I find place for adequate ProjectileStats though.

SwordsMaster

hmm yeah...google translates polish?

Well... I once tried, just for fun if nothing else. And Lord of the Rings was translated as Master of the Bells - quite unexpected don't You agree.

REVISED TIMEFRAME - what do You think ?

'early' 1480 ( abstract date) - 1572 - Age of Exploration;
'high' 1572 - 1648 - The Religious Turmoil;
'late' 1648 - 1700 - The Sun King's Ambition;

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Hetman

05-13-2004, 12:00

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 13 2004,04:58)]1.@ hetman, i didnt receive any email yet, are you sure about the email address, or maybe the attachement was very large?

Coz i have to tidy up my storage space. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

2.The Ideas for tartars are really good, but as they were really light cav, theyr armour shouldnt get any higher than 2. I know it doesnt in your units, but what if you get armour enhacement, improvement or something.
Greetings

1. Yes, quite large. I'm sending it once again, though.

2. Tartars won't be able to build this building.
Probably only level 1 armourer will be included in the mod.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-13-2004, 12:13

More units. I think we are going to have more Spanish and Polish units than everyone else's alltogether http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wallons were “allied troops” in the spanish army, when Spanish were “elite” the Wallons and germans and Italians were the more common soldiers. They fought in the same way as spanyards as long as organization was concerned, but they didn’t have that “national desperation” that made Spanish soldiers so feared in Europe.

(Hey, it looks good even for a unit description)

Wallon corselet:

Same as Spanish size.
Non disciplined
Slow
Good morale
5 m pike and sword (same as Spanish)
charge 2
attack 3
defence 6
armour 5 (the king didn’t spend so much money on their protection…)

available in Spanish Netherlands + Spanish HRE (maybe also Milan, not too sure tho)

Wallon pikeman

Same stats as swiss pikeman from vanilla MTW (NOT Swiss armoured pikeman)

Wallon musketeer/harquebusier

Same stats as Spanish, but not disciplined, 1 point less morale, and 1 less in defence and charge. -1 attack

Italian “allied armies” Available in Naples, Sicily, Lombardy

Same stats as for Wallons, except:

Corselet : +1 charge, -1 attack, +1 morale, -1 defence
Pikeman: same as wallon, +1 charge, +1 morale.
Musketeers: same as Wallon, +1 morale, +1 attack

Hope it helps….

I’ll try to post some more pics if I can get them.I cant post pics from my PC, and I have no webpage, so its gonna be hard…….

Quote[/b] ]Then they should be a skirmishing unit, armed with a pistol, and a dagger.

How many bullets ?
10 bullets but slow reload.

Quote[/b] ]The question is the AI will waste this unit's ability if armed with a ranged weapon. Of course if a human player is the commander it is entirely different matter. I believe we'll have to choose.

The computer used Battlefiled ninjas in STW with no prob... Only that the default setting should have the fire at will turned off.

Quote[/b] ]Ok, they could increase catholic zeal in catholic provs, and make increasingly catholic non-catholic provs.

Yes, it seems to be the best solution, but probably not every unit should have this ability.
Not all the troops, only the ones labelled spanish

Quote[/b] ]So my suggestion is to call Tercio an army when that army grows to 800 men. So for instance, the Tercio of Navarre would be a unit of more than 800 men if the last unit added to the stack to reach the 800 was from Navarre.

Only units can be called, not armies - as far as I know.
Ok, I had another Idea (dangerous thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif )

Give the spanish 3 titles of maestre de campo +2 command, +1 loyalty all three. That would more-less reflect the 3 main spanish tercios. The titles should not be dependent on provs, and they should be available from the beginning of high era for free.

BTW, the timeframe looks good.

And yeah, google learned english with Master Yoda (from Starwars)...hmmm... or maybe Master Yoda programmed google... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif scary isnt it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I'll send you a pic of flags in the evening.

just in case: my email addresses:

atorres@tcd.ie or
warriorzutd@hotmail.com (yup, this one is stupid http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif )

Ellesthyan

05-13-2004, 13:47

Don't forget the Dutch, people They absolutely should have a faction, if only to make all us from the Netherlands happy.

SwordsMaster

05-13-2004, 14:03

Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ May 13 2004,07:47)]Don't forget the Dutch, people They absolutely should have a faction, if only to make all us from the Netherlands happy.
For Dutch units, I suggest Wallon-type infantry, and heavier dependance on German troops (thats what they used, german mercs, and homemade troops based on spanish models) the only thing that should be added is give them higher chances of getting good gens. And lower the ship production costs.

BTW, Spanish fleet should be 1.5 times more expensive than everyone else's. All spanish development was orientated towards land combat. The only ship that should be cheap for spain is the Galley.

Ostrogski

05-13-2004, 17:47

@EC

Your pictures about polish Pancerny is wrong, both screns shows officers husaria`s.

Eastside Character

05-13-2004, 18:20

Quote[/b] (Ostrogski @ May 13 2004,11:47)]@EC

Your pictures about polish Pancerny is wrong, both screns shows officers husaria`s.
Those are the paintings of Pancerni:

Pancerny by Brandt
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/images/%20pancerny%20na%20koniu.jpg

Rotmistrz Pancerny by Juliusz Kossak
http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Kossak_Jul/Images/Rotmistrz_pancerny.jpg
This is a painting of a rotmistrz, so not a regular pancerny, but their commander - that's why the elaborate equippment of both rider and his steed.

If I'm wrong, it's only because these fine hisorical painters were wrong before me.

If you wish, I can provide more pictures of Pancerni, all of which present fairly the same representation of that type of soldier.

But if you still claim those pictures are wrong, why don't you provide the appropriate ones.

Regards,
EC

Hetman

05-14-2004, 09:13

SwordsMaster

Another suggestion is for Cossacks ( Nomad gave me the idea, ) Is cossacks horse archers.

I'm sure there will be such unit. BTW the game isn't very historically accurate at that time Cossack cavalry was rather poor, it was the infantry which was really dangerous.
Only Russian Don Cossacks were quite good.

I remember seeing in a cossack museum in Zaporozhye, 3 meter bows fired from horseback

Are You sure... 3 meter long bows ?

Eastside Character

I actually enjoy doing graphic work of that kind, so if you ever needed sth like this to be done, you can let me know, Hetman.

Please try to find more paintings if You can, I mean all nations.
BTW do You remember old boardgames ( Dragon range) - in Grunwald, Wiedeń or Kircholm there were very good pictures for unit icons, really good for the mod.

Trax

Well, if there is some problems with the protestant religion at the moment, why not concentrate on the first era first, so there no Protestants around yet?

The idea is to start with the protestant religion, why - this way it is possible to recreate the Protestant religion spreading out in 'early' and the Jesuits trying to counter this in 'high'.
I know it is not very accurate, but the problem is that a turn = one year, so the game isn't going to be realistic enough, anyway.

Second. I don't think it is possible to change faction's religion without renaming it, creating different faction ( e.g. Protestant English).

NEWS

First. We have Duke John's permission to use his graphs in this mod.

SECOND. I believe I've found the way how to implement Protestant religion in the game

Because there are only 2 orthodox factions ( Russia and Ukraine- Cossack rebells) why not make these factions PAGAN.
Of course it is necessary to rename Pagan religion to Orthodox and change the icon, but it seems to be quite easy.

Next step is to re-name the Orthodox religion into Protestant and change the adequate icon for it.

Why it the best solution ? Because, as far as I know, faction religion is connected to faction behaviour ( i.e. Orthodox Expansionist, Ortodox Defensive and so on), so it seems better to change some factions into Orthodox than Pagan, which would mean that every single Protestant cauntry would be Barbarian Raider ( The only Pagan faction behaviour).

When it comes to Russia and Ukraine I think we could easily change these into Barbarian Raider factions and still this should work quite well.
Of course this means serious changes for existing units, agents and buildings, but it seems to be the easiest possible solution.

Finally it is possible to modify current religion names, because it was done in Hellenic Total War and not only.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 09:33

hmmm... I think ive seen shorter than yearly turns in some mod, NTW, possibly.

I´ll write a more detailed post later.

Dead Moroz

05-14-2004, 09:46

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 12 2004,11:38)]I guess we need somebody from Russia to provide much necessary info.

Here I am http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 13 2004,13:58)]
Quote[/b] ]A late reply for your qustion Hetman, regarding the Vityez.
You said that they might be more early medieval. I tacked them on the list because they appeared in CDV,s Cossacks Game (the developers are Russian, you'd think they'd know there stuff, but maybe not) So I think they might have still been in use XVIth century. But couldn't swear to it.
Well, I asked my dad (hes russian) and he said that the Vityaz were very early medieval heavy cavalry for the russian princes. Somewhere around IX-XI cent. So the guys of Cossacks just made up the unit to reflect that Russia had rather obsolete army or something, or just used the name for estetic reasons.

Yes, the word Vityaz is more suitable for medieval times. It's not official name of any types of troops. It's rather idiomatic expression meaning brave knight.

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 13 2004,13:58)]Another suggestion is for Cossacks ( Nomad gave me the idea, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif ) Is cossacks horse archers.
I remember seeing in a cossack museum in Zaporozhye, 3 meter bows fired from horseback, maybe we should implement them as well...

Cossacks could use bows in 16-17 cent. It was widespread weapon in Russian army in 16 cent. But I'm not sure that it was main weapon of cossacks. And I think that bows became antediluvian in 17 century.

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 14 2004,12:13)]I'm sure there will be such unit. BTW the game isn't very historically accurate at that time Cossack cavalry was rather poor, it was the infantry which was really dangerous.
Only Russian Don Cossacks were quite good.

Cossacks are cavalrymen. They lived in steppes, they had to fight with Tatars, so that's why they are cavalrymen first of all Their infantry was just auxiliary troops, gathered from very poor cossack (they were enable to get horse). Of course, in some cases cossack had to fight dismounted.
Cossacks must be cavalry unit with option to dismount them before battle.

And there were no big differences between Zaporozhian and Don cossacs in 16-17 cent.

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 11:00

*points up to Dead moroz post* hes quite right.

Except for a couple of things: Cossacks still used bows during Peter the Great campaigns against the Swedes, and even during Napoleonic wars.

Im sure I have seen 3 meter long bows in that museum.What Im not quite sure about is if the bows were used by cossacks or tartars coz its been 12 years since the last time ive been to Zaporozhye. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Another thing about the cossacks is that they DID have infantry (mostly for siege or defensive purposes), and they even had artillery, but they were famous for their cavalry.

Check out this link, it is in polish, so my understanding of it is quite limited.

this link (http://eduseek.interklasa.pl/artykuly/artykul/ida/2236/)

It seems a good review of military tactics in the XV,XVI, XVII cent with pics of units, which is always good.

The cossack armored train that seems to be so controversial worked in the following way:

all the baggage carts were positioned in a circle, the cossacks(dismounted) laid under the carts shooting continuously (the guys behind them reloaded theyr rifles (they had about 3 rifles per cossack, so the speed of the shooting was incredible at the time) (the americans adopted the same style of defence in open field during the american civli war, 200 years later)).

Apart from that, more men (cavalry) charged from the flanks to the enemy after they were disorganized by the shooters.

Well, i dont know if that is understandable, but hope it helps.

thats another link to a spanish tercios page.There are some pics of helmets, flags and officer armours, also some pics of harquebusier and corselet. The flag we should use IMO is the one with the white background and red cross. It will be historically accurate and not too pretencious.

1 question: can u make different flags for different units?
something like, one flag for cavalry guards, and a different one for normal cavalry...

Sapnish tercios page (http://www.soldadosdeplomo.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=27)

PS. The way I see it Russia wasnt aggressive at all until the 18th century, so I dont know if Barbarian Raider is a good choice for them....

PPS. Hetman, just got your email at the hotmail address.

Dead Moroz

05-14-2004, 11:02

So, that's the info about Russian army in 16-17 centuries. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Cavalry

There were about 4 types of cavalry units in Russian army that time.

1. Noble cavalry. It was close to Polish pancerny (not Czterej pancerni i pies). They wore helmet, chain mail, different types of armour protecting chest, and shield. The main weapon was sabre. In 16 century they could use bow.

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/uniform1.jpg

You can also find them in these two pics:
http://vs1969r.narod.ru/Frend/Istor/ist26.jpg
http://art-rus.narod.ru/gal6/21-12.jpg

2. Common Russian cavalry. Our historians calls it Pomestnaya Kavaleriya. It means cavalry of estate owners. It was composed from people who get land for their service in army.

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/uniform2.jpg http://blin.exler.ru/articles/estoniatravel/0202.gif

3. Cossacks. It was light cavalry of people lived on borders of Russia (Ukraine, Don basin, Yaik (Ural) basin, Siberia, Northern Caucasus, etc.).
You can make 2 types of cossacks in the mod.
a) Zaporozhian Cossacks. They are well represented in the game Cossacks.
http://www.cossacks.de/english/encyclopedia/images/un_ukraine_cossack_stcher.gif http://www.cossacks.de/english/encyclopedia/images/un_ukraine_reg_cossack.gif http://www.cossacks.de/english/encyclopedia/images/un_ukraine_hetman.gif

b) Regular Cossacks (Russia only). Cossack from different outskirts of Russia. That's the pic of Ural Cossack (18 cent., but almost the same with 17 cent.).

http://www.voskres.ru/army/library/images/ural-kz.jpg http://www.cossacks.de/english/encyclopedia/images/un_russia_don_cossack.gif

4. Mercenary Tatar cavalry. The light cavalry armed with bows (like in game Cossacks).
http://www.cossacks.de/english/encyclopedia/images/un_turkey_tatar.gif

Infantry

The main type of infantry was Streltsy. It was first Russian regular troops organized in 16 cent. They were riflemen (not sure if they had harquebus or musket in 17 cent.; I will check it later). They also had halberd used like pedestal for rifle while shooting and as weapon in hand-to-hand combat.
There was also some number of mounted streltsy.

http://www.warclub.enjoy.ru/gallery/soldiers2/soldier/med_01.jpg http://www.warclub.enjoy.ru/gallery/soldiers2/soldier/med_02.jpg http://www.warclub.enjoy.ru/gallery/soldiers2/soldier/med_03.jpg http://www.warclub.enjoy.ru/gallery/soldiers2/soldier/med_04.jpg

Town and countryside population could organize militia during wars. Their armour and weapons were different.

Cossack also had some number of infantry.
This is pic where Siberian cossacks fights with Tatars:
http://vs1969r.narod.ru/Frend/Istor/ist24.jpg

You can also create small detachment (about 20-60 units) of Russian royal bodyguards (Ryndas).

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/uniform3.jpg

In 17 cent. Russian government organized small number of troops armed in Western European style. There were dragoons, riders, spearmen and musketmen. But they were trained worse then western troops.
You can find them in this pic:
http://vs1969r.narod.ru/Frend/Istor/ist25.jpg

So, that's all for today. Let me know if I can help you some more. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-14-2004, 11:16

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 14 2004,05:00)]PS. The way I see it Russia wasnt aggressive at all until the 18th century, so I dont know if Barbarian Raider is a good choice for them....
Actually Russia was agressive from the beginning ( XVth century) of Muscovy state.

The border between Poland-Lithuania and Russia was in an endless state of war almost till the destruction of Poland ( XVIIIth century).

Though, You are right they were not agressive enough to be rated very dangerous or powerful till Peter the Great.

Check Your e-mail for details.
Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-14-2004, 11:21

Ellesthyan

Don't forget the Dutch, people They absolutely should have a faction, if only to make all us from the Netherlands happy.

Sorry. I do mean to add them from 'high'.

SwordsMaster

they should be available from the beginning of high era for free.

Not possible. Why ? Because the number of titles is restricted to all these connected to certain buildings.

BTW, Spanish fleet should be 1.5 times more expensive than everyone else's. All spanish development was orientated towards land combat. The only ship that should be cheap for spain is the Galley.

I'm not sure it is possible. Probably only if we add a number of Spanish ships and for Spain only. The second is easier, granting a faction adventage for Spain should solve the problem.

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Dead Moroz

05-14-2004, 11:22

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 14 2004,14:16)]
Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 14 2004,05:00)]PS. The way I see it Russia wasnt aggressive at all until the 18th century, so I dont know if Barbarian Raider is a good choice for them....
Actually Russia was agressive from the beginning ( XVth century) of Muscovy state.

The border between Poland-Lithuania and Russia was in an endless state of war almost till the destruction of Poland ( XVIIIth century).

Though, You are right they were not agressive enough to be rated very dangerous or powerful till Peter the Great.

Check Your e-mail for details.
Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Agreed. Russia was aggressive state since IX century (the time of Rurik).
But we was not not agressive enough till Peter. We just had no luck in wars with our western neighbors. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 11:41

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 14 2004,05:21)]Ellesthyan

Don't forget the Dutch, people They absolutely should have a faction, if only to make all us from the Netherlands happy.

Sorry. I do mean to add them from 'high'.

SwordsMaster

they should be available from the beginning of high era for free.

Not possible. Why ? Because the number of titles is restricted to all these connected to certain buildings.

BTW, Spanish fleet should be 1.5 times more expensive than everyone else's. All spanish development was orientated towards land combat. The only ship that should be cheap for spain is the Galley.

I'm not sure it is possible. Probably only if we add a number of Spanish ships and for Spain only. The second is easier, granting a faction adventage for Spain should solve the problem.

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

Or alternatively, just change some royal councelor titles to Maestre de Campo (at least 1 of them).

Couldnt you have some sort of faction disadvantage as well? and rise the costs of all other ships....

Ok, agree to Barbarian Raider for russians,then, but im still not convinced that that depicted the situation really well....

Maybe you could PM one of the Lordz to ask if there is a way of making shorter turns....

Hetman

05-14-2004, 11:42

Quote[/b] (Dead Moroz @ May 14 2004,05:22)]
BTW do You know anything about 'hulajgorods' - the big 'siege towers' with small cannons the Russian army was using at that time?

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 12:01

hmm...read some of the material you sent me, and my conclusions are:

-Cavalry was polish spearhead, well trained, heavily armoured, etc..

-Cavalry was a shock troop, not well suited for defence.

-They couldnt fight effectively a musket-heavy army, specially if not in open field.

-they relied heavily in infantry to clear the way for the heavies. That leads to the thinking that the cavalry charged troops already disorganized and softened by artillery and infantry.

-the poles had a good sapping ability (that reminds me of Rome: TW somehow) and were able to build good fortifications in short time. (so maybe you could lower the costs of the first 2 levels of forts for the Poles)

-Cossacks were really good at fighting Tartars ans Ottomans. The Hussars were only used for defence against those foes.

Am I mistaken?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Dead Moroz

05-14-2004, 13:05

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 14 2004,14:42)]

BTW do You know anything about 'hulajgorods' - the big 'siege towers' with small cannons the Russian army was using at that time?

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
You can read about Gulay-Gorods here (http://www.xenophongi.org/rusarmy/streltzi.htm).

Gulay-Gorod (better to write gulyay-gorod) can be translated as walking town.

For the first time they was used by Russians in 1530 during campaign against Kazanian Tatars.
Gulay-Gorods has been used in sieges until the beginning of 17 century.

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/gulay-gorod1.gif

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/gulay-gorod2.gif

Eastside Character

05-14-2004, 13:14

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 14 2004,03:13)]Eastside Character

I actually enjoy doing graphic work of that kind, so if you ever needed sth like this to be done, you can let me know, Hetman.

Please try to find more paintings if You can, I mean all nations.
BTW do You remember old boardgames ( Dragon range) - in Grunwald, Wiedeń or Kircholm there were very good pictures for unit icons, really good for the mod.
Then I'll be making those info pictures.

A request to all and any who can provide appropriate pictures/paintings links, that can be used for making those info pics:

Send me a PM with links to such pictures, so I won't have to search for everythings myself (as many of you know your national units much better than I do).
Those pictures which are posted in this thread, you obviously don't have to provide again.

Dead Moroz
Great pictures http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif Could you find more for cassack cavalry and other eastern units? Those you've already posted - I'm making info pics for them just right now.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 13:17

@eastside character:

look in the links I posted already.Most of them have pics.

Anyways, I'll try get some more detailed ones.

cannon (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8788/tercios.htm)

apic of a spanish cannon in the middle of the battle.
Not too clear, but hope its usable

Ostrogski

05-14-2004, 18:07

@EC
it`s polish pancerny, those was oficers husaria and pancerny, first for sure husaria`s :-)) http://www.kawaleria-polska.pl/portal_new/marek/3.jpg
Armour weight ab. 11,5kg

http://public.srce.hr/husar/Polish%20Pancerny%201683.jpg

SwordsMaster

05-14-2004, 21:52

LOL, dunno about their capacity as cavalrymen, but the one on the pic surely drank lots of beer.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

BTW, forgot to say, that for the Ottomans, the galleys should also be cheaper, as for the spanish.

Nomad

05-15-2004, 08:07

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 14 2004,10:33)]hmmm... I think ive seen shorter than yearly turns in some mod, NTW, possibly.

I´ll write a more detailed post later.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I've tried to change years to quarters. But you can't, apparently it hardcoded. At least I was told on this forum it wasn't possible. But you can set the counter to what ever you like of course.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

p.s Intresting stuff about the Vityez.

Hetman

05-15-2004, 10:20

SwordsMaster

hmmm... I think ive seen shorter than yearly turns in some mod, NTW, possibly.

I'm quite sure it is impossible to change it. The shortest ( and longest) turn = one year.

Dead Moroz

Cossacks are cavalrymen. They lived in steppes, they had to fight with Tatars, so that's why they are cavalrymen first of all

YOU are right, my mistake. My statement was because comparing to Polish cavalry the Cossacks were rather poor horsemen - of course I do mean Polish professional soldiers.
It was said that 100 Poles easily defeat 1000 Cossack cavalry, but 100 Cossacks protected with wagons can defend vs. 1000 Poles - a French envoy witnessing battles between Poles and Cossacks.
At that time Cossack ( Zaporohian) infantry in wagons was very hard to break and many times Poles used this infantry if possible because of its very high quality - for example at Chocim in 1621, when Polish-Cossacks army defeated Ottoman invasion forces.

During the Chmielnicki's Revolt most of early Cossack victories were due to Cossack-Tatar ( tough infantry and agile cavalry) alliance and lack of good commanders ( at that time) in the Polish army, not because Cossack cavalry was so good.

SwordsMaster

but they were famous for their cavalry.

Yes, but from XVIII or even XIXth century.

1 question: can u make different flags for different units?
something like, one flag for cavalry guards, and a different one for normal cavalry...

A faction can use only one flag, unfortunatelly.

Dead Moroz

(not Czterej pancerni i pies)

Oh, I liked this tv series when I was 6-9 years old, even it was 'historically accurate' almost as 'XENA'. What a joy it was

You can also create small detachment (about 20-60 units) of Russian royal bodyguards (Ryndas).

Infantry or cavalry, and what type ?

We just had no luck in wars with our western neighbors.

Except the Swedish invasion of Poland in 1655, which changed the balance of power in Eastern Europe enough to allow Russia to conquer Ukraine, I belive.

SwordsMaster

Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

No additional titles can be added. We'll have to choose one of the existing ones to change if possible.

Couldnt you have some sort of faction disadvantage as well? and rise the costs of all other ships....

Only faction advantage can be granted ( smaller cost).

Ok, agree to Barbarian Raider for russians,then, but im still not convinced that that depicted the situation really well....

I believe it's quite justified, especially in later years of the reign of Ivan IV the Terrible.
Just few examples - after Polish-Lithuanian political union ( 1569) Ivan was so angry that after he had learnt about some boyar nobles from Novogrod are going to betray him ( or he just thought they are going to do this) he ordered them and THE WHOLE city to be destroyed i.e. thousands of people were tortured and killed.
Second when Russian army invaded Poland in 1654 one of the armies conquered almost whole Lithuania and it's biggest city Vilna. The army looted and burned the town ( it was burning for three days ), after the city was recaptured the Russian commander was found guilty of 'war crimes' and executed ( one of the earliest war crime sentence).
Finally as far as I remember between XVIth and XXth century Russia was conquering about 10 square
kilometers A DAY - probably the number should be higher, though.
So, Yes Russia was agressive, and from time to time this was really a 'barbarian rider' - especially during the later years of Ivan the Terrible reign, who was a real madman.

FACTIONS - probably the final proposal,

= the same=

Poland=

Hungary - Transylvania - replaces Hungary in 'high' and 'late';

Spain=

France=

Venetia - replaces Italian;

England=

Danes=

Russia=

Ottoman - replaces Turkish;

Crimean Tatar - replaces Almohad, 'early' only;

Austria or Hapsburg HRE - replaces German HRE;

Burgundy - replaced with United Provinces ( Dutch) in 'high' and 'late';

Sweden - replaces Novgorod;

Portugal - replaces Aragon;

Ukraine - replaces Byzantine in 'late';

Egypt - only in 'early';

The Knights of St. John - replaces Sicilian;

Pope - not playable;

Swiss=

additional factions - not in the first release, though;

Saxony

Scotland

Navarre

Florence

Genoa

Brandenburg

Persia - only in case of map changes;

GENERALLY - 26 factions, 25 playable;

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

PS I've tried modified Husaria already. I think it is possible to make this unit almost as the same as in reality.

Hetman

05-15-2004, 10:36

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 14 2004,06:01)]-they relied heavily in infantry to clear the way for the heavies. That leads to the thinking that the cavalry charged troops already disorganized and softened by artillery and infantry.
Plese try this link - really much info. about polish army

There is more info especially about Husaria attacking Tatars.

Answer. Infantry was really important to help cavalry, but the 'softening' was done by quite small units e.g. Klushino 1610 - there were about 200 - 300 infantrymen agains 5000 Swedes and 30 000 Russians, their main task was to demolish some fences and buildings were the Swedes were waiting.

http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/index.htm

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-15-2004, 11:27

Quote[/b] ]Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

No additional titles can be added. We'll have to choose one of the existing ones to change if possible.

Ok, then I have two questions:

1- Are we going to implement a general unit?
2- If yes, then just call the spanish general unit Maestre de Campo.

The Maestre de Campo had a guard of 8 heavily armed and armoured halberdiers that received really good salaries, so they fought to death.

Quote[/b] ]Finally as far as I remember between XVIth and XXth century Russia was conquering about 10 square
kilometers A DAY - probably the number should be higher, though.

You are right, but that included the expansion to the east, which is out of our scope. They did not conquer that much en europe tho, until the XVIII cent.

Quote[/b] ]hmmm... I think ive seen shorter than yearly turns in some mod, NTW, possibly.

I'm quite sure it is impossible to change it. The shortest ( and longest) turn = one year.

Thats a pity. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

About factions: Include NAvarre in early, but not in High or Late.They had some privileges, but they paid taxes and soldiers to the spanish king as everyone else.

Instead, include Genoa in High, coz those guys substituted the Spanish as the first naval power in the mediterranean in around 1620.

The pope should only hold Rome. BTW, the Spanish landsknechts (emperor Charles´ landsknechts) looted Rome in 1547(?) not too sure about the date.

So the pope was very careful when it came to Spain.He said nothing when Spain fought France.

Eastside Character

05-15-2004, 14:18

Quote[/b] ]Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

No additional titles can be added. We'll have to choose one of the existing ones to change if possible.

Titles

Well, I don't know where do you have that information from, but actually you can use a Military Academy to generate office titles, the same you can do with any other building. What is more, you can make a Military Academy generate 3 titles or even more if you like. I've been playing with titles some time ago, and it was no problem to have a building generate 5 titles. Even such simple structures as a Spearmaker or a Bowyer can provide office titles, you just have to add them to office titles list in campaign.txt file. A thing to remember while making some buildings title generators is, that it'd be better if such building couldn't be upgraded, as after if is upgraded, the title(s) it provides simply disappear. The only problem in having multiple titles was, when I wanted to add more provincial titles for a single province, the game would recognized only the first one.

The Pope

About the Pope in game, I think he shouldn't have the powers he has in regular MTW (to call for a crusade, to excommunicate, to grant money). To prevent such behaviors of Pope, his faction simply has to be given some other behavior model. Well, these are only my ideas, but I don't think the Pope should have any influence on what catholic factions do, especially that there are going to be much fewer of them in this mod compared to MTW. What do you guys think about it?

Regards,
EC

wilpuri

05-15-2004, 14:33

Alot of good information on the Sweish army, in the form of battle-reports, beginning from The battle at Brunkeberg 1471. Some good pictures as well
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-42039/BATTLEINTRO.htm

SwordsMaster

05-15-2004, 14:57

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 15 2004,08:18)]
Quote[/b] ]Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

No additional titles can be added. We'll have to choose one of the existing ones to change if possible.

Titles

Well, I don't know where do you have that information from, but actually you can use a Military Academy to generate office titles, the same you can do with any other building. What is more, you can make a Military Academy generate 3 titles or even more if you like. I've been playing with titles some time ago, and it was no problem to have a building generate 5 titles. Even such simple structures as a Spearmaker or a Bowyer can provide office titles, you just have to add them to office titles list in campaign.txt file. A thing to remember while making some buildings title generators is, that it'd be better if such building couldn't be upgraded, as after if is upgraded, the title(s) it provides simply disappear. The only problem in having multiple titles was, when I wanted to add more provincial titles for a single province, the game would recognized only the first one.

The Pope

About the Pope in game, I think he shouldn't have the powers he has in regular MTW (to call for a crusade, to excommunicate, to grant money). To prevent such behaviors of Pope, his faction simply has to be given some other behavior model. Well, these are only my ideas, but I don't think the Pope should have any influence on what catholic factions do, especially that there are going to be much fewer of them in this mod compared to MTW. What do you guys think about it?

Regards,
EC
Titles: Thats absolutely great So we have much more power of influencing the kingdoms. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

The pope: He definitely shouldnt be able to call crusades, but he could grant money from time to time.... Or maybe just remove him, or make him excomm everyone that fights against the faction that controls Rome.

BTW, as I´m quite bored Im working on some sort of signature for Pike and Musket TW. I´ll post it when im finished http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Eastside Character

05-16-2004, 00:15

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 14 2004,05:41)]Couldnt you have some sort of faction disadvantage as well? and rise the costs of all other ships....
The way I see this:
If all the factions get an advantage for producing all those ships you are here talking about - Spain is handicapped, as it has no advantage. Simple solution.

Quote[/b] ]The pope: He definitely shouldnt be able to call crusades, but he could grant money from time to time.... Or maybe just remove him, or make him excomm everyone that fights against the faction that controls Rome.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to leave the Pope with only some of his abilities (like granting money) if his behavior model is Pope. So you can either leave him all of his powers, or deprive him of all of them. And why do you think the Pope should grant money? I see no reason for this - human player will do well without it, and the AI cheats with money from time to time anyway.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-16-2004, 12:13

Yeah, can you do that?
I thought a faction could only have a small number of faction advantages, so you couldnt include all of the ships as advantages....

If its doable, then problem solved. Caouldnt you find a sollution for the Fourageer unit I proposed?

I know its kinda cheeky, but you already sloved 2 difficulties, so you might be able to solve the 3rd one aswell....

And about he Pope you are right, just give Rome to Spain from high onwards and problem solved.
The Pope might exist in the Early period as Pope.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

PS: BTW, guys do you like the sig?

Eastside Character

05-16-2004, 14:20

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 15 2004,18:15)]The way I see this:
If all the factions get an advantage for producing all those ships you are here talking about - Spain is handicapped, as it has no advantage. Simple solution.
Well, I was to quick to say so... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
I've tested multiple faction advantages for a unit, and it won't work. Only one faction can be given an advantage for a single unit type. Sorry for false information before.

So the solution to that Spanish fleet problem would be to give the Spanish their own, exclusive types of ships which would be appropriatelly more expensive compared to their regular counterparts. And about this solution, I'm 100% sure it is doable.

Quote[/b] ]Caouldnt you find a sollution for the Fourageer unit I proposed?

The ability of Fourageers to fight with the weapons of the unit they defeat, and also with changed stats, is impossible to be implemented. However, there can be other way to reflect that specific feature of Fourageers: very low building requirements (as they often use weapons of their beaten enemies), or ability to gain valor faster than other units (which would increase their stats in battle).

Regards,
EC

Edit:

Quote[/b] ]PS: BTW, guys do you like the sig?

Yes, it's nice.

ThijsP

05-16-2004, 17:20

About the Dutch units:
The Dutch mostly used muskets. About 2 thirds and one third pikemen. Most other country had 2 thirds pikeman and one third musket. And of course some cavalary. These should be armed with pistols and a sword. Also the Dutch relied alot on forreign mercenarys. In the 80 years war mostly English Scottish and German. Later more from Geman and Swedes. Dutch units were much smaller than Spanish and others(who had more than a thousand man in one unit), making them more manouverable.

SwordsMaster

05-16-2004, 18:55

Quote[/b] ]The ability of Fourageers to fight with the weapons of the unit they defeat, and also with changed stats, is impossible to be implemented. However, there can be other way to reflect that specific feature of Fourageers: very low building requirements (as they often use weapons of their beaten enemies), or ability to gain valor faster than other units (which would increase their stats in battle).

Ok, so the Fourageers would have the stats specified before, but the requirement for fourageers is any building producing military units (fort?). Also, as they are quite fragile, they should get valor twice as fast as a normal soldier. In the other hand, valor upgrades wouldnt affect them, they always have to start with low morale an dlow valor.( they were just teenagers that signed for the army as soldiers´ servants, but in case of necessity fought as everyone else.Usually they would sign up as proffesional soldiers when they had the necessary 17 years.)

Most of the Dutch army was composed by German and English mercs,as well as few national troops.

Eastside Character

05-16-2004, 19:24

Good news

I made Husaria, that actually looks like Husaria http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
(well, maybe not for Ostrogski http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )

Check it (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/husaria.html?1084731141180)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Regards,
EC

wilpuri

05-16-2004, 19:27

Quote[/b] (ThijsP @ May 16 2004,11:20)]About the Dutch units:
The Dutch mostly used muskets. About 2 thirds and one third pikemen. Most other country had 2 thirds pikeman and one third musket. And of course some cavalary. These should be armed with pistols and a sword. Also the Dutch relied alot on forreign mercenarys. In the 80 years war mostly English Scottish and German. Later more from Geman and Swedes. Dutch units were much smaller than Spanish and others(who had more than a thousand man in one unit), making them more manouverable.
And it was the swedes (or Gustav II Adolf) who developed the Dutch model into the most effecvtive army of the time of the 30 year war. So the swedes also used smaller units, and they had a longer and thinner battle formation than the imperial armies.

EDIT: EC, that is beautiful Great work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-16-2004, 23:44

@ EC: *stands in awe* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Beautiful work

only small thing, i think the wings should be brighter, so the unit could be immediately recognized.

@ wilpuri:
Quote[/b] ]And it was the swedes (or Gustav II Adolf) who developed the Dutch model into the most effecvtive army of the time of the 30 year war. So the swedes also used smaller units, and they had a longer and thinner battle formation than the imperial armies.

The only reason why the Dutch drove the spanish off Netherlands was because the commercial routes from America were obstructed by english pirates, coz the Spanish fleet was in crisis, so the king was short of money and of men.

About effectiveness, the spanish army lost its status as the best army in europe in the battle of Rocroi, when the spaniards let the enemy annihilate themselves with artillery. There is a quote from the memories of Iñigo Balboa , officer of the royal guard in Rocroi:

...When, finally the artillery broke the remainder of our company and the french cavalry surrounded our square, still fearing the pikes that were so deadly in the hands of those men i was proud of, the officer asked us politely to surrender.[...] Later, he asked me how many men were in the square originally.

I looked at the bodies lying dead in formation, loyal to their reputation and discipline. Then my gaze focused again at the face of the french.

- You are free to count the bodies, monsieur. - I answered.

Sorry about the possible inaccuracies.The traduction is google-quality which I tried to make up as I could.

Apart from that just say that despite the quality of the dutch army, the spanish fought them for 30 years, which is a long time. From the Archivo Nacional de la Biblioteca nacinal (Spanish national historical database). In the XVI-XVII ceturies there have NEVER been more than 18000 spanish soldiers at once in the Netherlands.And NEVER more than 7000 of them in the same place/battle.

Anyway, I dont want to raise nationalistic issues. I think the Dutch should have really good generals in Late, and possibly also in High, to reflect the fact that they really did have good gens, and also that they armies were quite resistent and steady.

Cebei

05-16-2004, 23:59

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 16 2004,13:24)]Good news

I made Husaria, that actually looks like Husaria http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
(well, maybe not for Ostrogski http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )

Check it (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/husaria.html?1084731141180)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Regards,
EC
EC these look awesome You have done much better than CA

Mouzafphaerre

05-17-2004, 01:57

-
Beautiful indeed.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
_

Hetman

05-17-2004, 09:30

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 15 2004,08:18)]
Quote[/b] ]Couldnt it be possible to add those 3 titles to...say...the Military academy or something?

No additional titles can be added. We'll have to choose one of the existing ones to change if possible.

Titles

Well, I don't know where do you have that information from, but actually you can use a Military Academy to generate office titles, the same you can do with any other building. What is more, you can make a Military Academy generate 3 titles or even more if you like. I've been playing with titles some time ago, and it was no problem to have a building generate 5 titles. Even such simple structures as a Spearmaker or a Bowyer can provide office titles, you just have to add them to office titles list in campaign.txt file. A thing to remember while making some buildings title generators is, that it'd be better if such building couldn't be upgraded, as after if is upgraded, the title(s) it provides simply disappear. The only problem in having multiple titles was, when I wanted to add more provincial titles for a single province, the game would recognized only the first one.

The Pope

About the Pope in game, I think he shouldn't have the powers he has in regular MTW (to call for a crusade, to excommunicate, to grant money). To prevent such behaviors of Pope, his faction simply has to be given some other behavior model. Well, these are only my ideas, but I don't think the Pope should have any influence on what catholic factions do, especially that there are going to be much fewer of them in this mod compared to MTW. What do you guys think about it?

Regards,
EC
I was not aware of that - so thanks EC. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Hetman

05-17-2004, 09:37

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 16 2004,13:24)]Good news

I made Husaria, that actually looks like Husaria http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
(well, maybe not for Ostrogski http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )

Check it (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/husaria.html?1084731141180)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Regards,
EC
Very good indeed

Please send me the Textures and txt files You've made.

e-mail - Cegorach@wp.pl

Regards Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Hetman

05-17-2004, 09:39

SwordsMaster

Cavalry was polish spearhead, well trained, heavily armoured, etc..

most of them were not heavily armoured - only Husaria was quite heavy.

Cavalry was a shock troop, not well suited for defence.

Of course they were not supposed to defend castles, forts or something.
Polish army preffered agressive defence i.e. tried to intercept enemy attacks, invasions, raids...

They couldnt fight effectively a musket-heavy army, specially if not in open field.

Yes they were not used to attack enemy fortified positions, infantry in woods or something like that, but it is very hard to win a war without any battles in open field.

The Hussars were only used for defence against those foes.

Defence was preffered, mainly because it were Tartats who were raiding Poland searching for loot, not opposite i.e. Poles were not very keen on raiding poor Tatar settlements.
Still. Quite many times Husaria was used to attack Tartars e.g. in 1672
( probably) when hetman Sobieski led about 2000-3000 Soldiers ( Husaria, polish dragoons, pancerni ) against 20000 Tatars and crushed them in several battles - almost always attacking. The cavalry was capable of attacking the Tatars, but remember that Poles were stopping enemy raids NOT trying to loot Tatar settlements, although it happened several times.

Second remember that the name 'Cossacks' was used to describe one of types of Polish light cavalry ( future Pancerni).

Eastside Character

Then I'll be making those info pictures.

I'll send You the first list of units in the mod as soon as it's finished.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-17-2004, 09:40

I need more info about the following units:

French Gendarmes
French Chevaux
STRADIOTS
DEMI-LANCERS- English units
LIGHT STAVES
CALIVERS
ELMETI - Italian units
CONDOTTIERI
GENET D'ARMS - Spanish units
HERGULETIERS
CABALLOS LEIGEROS

What do I need ?
Answer. As much as possible. Please post them - easier to correct mistakes.

UNIT SIZE -

Cavalry - 20 ( smallest units, especially unique, 'special' units) to
80 ( 'horde' units i.e. irregulars mostly), average is 40 (50 for certain factions)

Infantry - 20 ( very unique i.e. Encamisado) to 120 ( 'hordes'), average - 80/60 men.

CAVALRY SPEED

It's important to understand that while western Europe played with pikes and muskets 'forgetting' that cavalry can move faster, in the rest of the world horsmen still provided very important factor in successful armies.

The difference can be recreated using movement stats.

SO. This is the result:

Western cavalry

'early' most common speed - slow moving ( but heavier armoured), normal speed and fast cavalry units uncommon.
'high' common speed - slow moving, but some armies ( e.g. Sweden) get ability to improve their armies by military reform ( Military Academy, but not only) - so first 'normal' speed and fast units appear ( e.g. Swedish Cuirassiers).
'late' after military reforms - slow moving cavalry uncommon.

Eastern cavalry
- only the countries can build 'master horse breeder' structures.

1. Tatars

'very fast' in all periods.

2. Poland, Hungary - frontier countries

'early' - slow moving very uncommon, almost none.
'high' and 'late' - no slow moving cavalry, some 'very fast' units, although unique only.

3. Ottoman

Fast and very fast cavalry in all periods.

PORTRAITS

Because it is possible to add portraits for generals/admirals/kings/agent units and so on, the mod requires more sources of this kind.

So if You know appriopriate links post it here

CRIMEAN TATARS FACTION

1. Units - not much info necessary, because I posted most of these earlier.

Nogay Tatars ( 80 men),
Tatar Horsemen ( 80 men) the 'core' of the army,
Tatar Scouts ( 20 men),
Crimean Cavalry ( 50 men) - bodyguard unit and the heaviest cavalry available.

+ Cossack units ( not all),
+ Lipkowie cavalry ( Lithuanian Tatars) from Poland,
+ regional units from the area ( e.g. Moldavian Cavalry),
+ mercenaries ( not many),

Additional possible, depends from Cebei and Mouzafphaerre research.

2. Homeland

Crimea, Moldavia, Khazar, Ryazan, Kiev + other ( certain units only).

3. Techtree

Not very complicated ( because of the units), artillery by 'buildable mercenaries' option only. Most of infantry from Cossack units, peasants
and slaves.

Very primitive faction and very hard to play and win.

Please use the proposal above as the template for Your posts.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

SwordsMaster

05-17-2004, 11:16

You have been waiting for it, and here comes your reward http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The Fourageers dont have any sort of uniform, just random dirty clothes, they should appear in the battlefield as the kerns, not in a tight formation.

by 1530 the cavalry was just divided int heavy and light cav. The heavies were Men at arms and the light cavs were Jinetes

Spanish cavalry: after 1600 all of them used pistols instead of the lance.

mostly 4 types of cavalry from 1548-1704.

-Men at arms (Hombres de armas): Heavy cavalry, armed with a lance, a sword and 2 pistols, heavily armoured, but not as heavy as the french gendarmes.

-Jinetes: a lance, a pistol and a sword.Lightly armoured and faster than most of the european cavs.

-Harquebusiers: harquebus and a sword.

-Herreruelo: Cuirasseur unit.

-Archer: Lighter version of the Men at arms. faster, but still heavily armoured.

Royal guards:(cavalry)

-Men at arms: size 37. The best of the best.The best cavalry in spain.

-Archers of Burgundy: Lighter but faster version of the previous ones. Slightly bigger unit size.

Stats: Men at arms(royal guard):
size: 23
elite
disciplined
irresistible charge (8)
attack (6)
defence 5
armour 6
very high morale (7)
slow

extremely expensive and time consuming to train.(all the kings should start with a unit of those, or one of the other guards)

Archeros (royal guard)

size: 30
elite
disciplined
incredible morale
very strong charge 6
attack 6
defence 3
armour 3
fast

more affordable, but still as long training as the Men at arms.

Herreruelo:

size 40
disciplined
charge without orders
good morale
very strong charge 6
attack 5
defence 4
armour 5
normal speed

normal spanish heavy cavalry.Balance it as you see fit, they should be the average european heavy cav.

Harquebusier:

size 40
normal status
good morale
strong charge 4-5
attack 4
defence 3
armour 4
fast

those are the skirmishers some sort of dragon unit.

The real dragons were created in 1633, and are moslly equal to the german ones. (unit size 50)

After 1659 subtract 2 from the armour of all cavs except cuirasseurs. And the Harquebusiers became carabiniers. (attack 5, armour 2, defence 4)

there are some pics of Spanis kings usable for portraits here:

this page (http://es.geocities.com/capitancontreras/)

If you cant get there, i'll send them to you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Hetman

05-17-2004, 11:17

Eastside Character

The ability of Fourageers to fight with the weapons of the unit they defeat, and also with changed stats, is impossible to be implemented. However, there can be other way to reflect that specific feature of Fourageers: very low building requirements (as they often use weapons of their beaten enemies), or ability to gain valor faster than other units (which would increase their stats in battle).

I thought about extending the recruitment base i.e. beyond the Spanish homeland

BTW I finally figured out how to make Husaria more realistic.
One of the most important factors is to make them PERFECTLY_FORMED and change the unit's width - so they really can perform knee-to-knee charges.
The second step is highering the morale by +2 ( their 'normal' formation is loose actually and it is done to compensate for this.
I changed the unit size to 50 and I'm planning to weaken pikemen units
against cavalry, because most of horsemen units will not be powerful enough to break them anyway, and the Husaria should be able to do this.

ThijsP

making them more manouverable.

It is possible to make them slightly faster than the others.

SwordsMaster

In the other hand, valor upgrades wouldnt affect them, they always have to start with low morale an dlow

Yes, if require only fort to be recruited no valour modifiers will affect them. Good solution.

GENERALS AND TITLES

IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS FOR HISTORICAL GENERALS stats AND TITLES PLEASE POST THEM HERE
THANKS TO EC IT IS POSSIBLE TO ADD MUCH MORE- OF COURSE ONLY SOME I.E. THE BEST IDEAS ARE GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED.

BODYGUARDS

Do You want to add special unit/units for all/some factions for commanders only - i.e. something like General in the NTW, OR different units for different factions in different periods.
Remember that everytime a heir becomes adult he appears with his 'bodyguard' unit, SO CHOOSE WISELY.

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-17-2004, 11:19

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 15 2004,08:33)]Alot of good information on the Sweish army, in the form of battle-reports, beginning from The battle at Brunkeberg 1471. Some good pictures as well
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-42039/BATTLEINTRO.htm
wilpuri

Good info, especially about 30-year war.

When it comes to Swedish-Polish wars the link I've posted is much better, many battles are 'forgotten' in the Swedish webside ( 7 or 8 - 5 Polish victories - 3 in 1600 - 1604 period) and some ideas are quite funny indeed.

This is very good source nonetheless

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-17-2004, 12:04

Quote[/b] ] thought about extending the recruitment base i.e. beyond the Spanish homeland

Of course, they should be avail for everyone in west europe.

Titles: Capitan general: attached to some High building

+1 dread
+3 command

Spanish Command title.

Almirante del mar Oceano: (naval commander, attached to almir building) +2 loyal, +1 command.

Orden de Santiago:
piety +2
loyalty +1

Orden de Calatrava: extremely rare
loyalty +3
command +2
acumen +1

BODYGUARDS:

All spanish general units should start with 8 Archer bodyguards.

We definitely should have a general unit.

For spain the unit should be called Maestre de Campo.

GENERALS:

Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba Gran Capitan: (1453-1515)

Loyalty: 6
Dread: 5
Piety: 3
Acumen: 3
Command: 7

Skilled attacker/assaulter.
Loyal.

Ambrosio Spinola y Grimaldi:( 157- 164-)
loyalty: 8
dread: 2
piety: 2
acumen: 5
command: 4

skilled defender.
something +10 happiness.

Fernando Alvarez de Toledo (Gran Duque de Alba) (1507-1582)
loyalty 6
dread: 7
piety 4
acumen 3
command 6

-20 happiness.
loyal
master attacker
killer instinct

Juan de Austria: 1545-1578
loyalty 8
dread 0
piety 5
acumen 3
command 7

+10 happiness

Alejandro Farnesio (Duque de Parma): 1545-1592

loyalty: 5
dread 2
piety 1
acumen 6 (finished university)
command 5

+10 income from farming

Luis de Requesans:
loyalty 5
dread 2
piety 6
acumen 3
command 3

truly pious
trader.

I'll make another list for XVII cent and Kings.

BTW, in the link i posted before, click on Protagonistas on the left side and you will see the protraits.

PS: It is not only that pikes shouldnt be broken by cavs, they were specifically designed to fight them, so the ratio of kills should be REALLY favoravle to pikes. I mean, dont make them too weak just to make Hussars more impressive.

Eastside Character

05-17-2004, 12:32

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 17 2004,05:17)]BTW I finally figured out how to make Husaria more realistic.
One of the most important factors is to make them PERFECTLY_FORMED and change the unit's width - so they really can perform knee-to-knee charges.
The second step is highering the morale by +2 ( their 'normal' formation is loose actually and it is done to compensate for this.
I changed the unit size to 50 and I'm planning to weaken pikemen units
against cavalry, because most of horsemen units will not be powerful enough to break them anyway, and the Husaria should be able to do this.
The unit I made while testing those Husaria graphics, was indeed perfectly formed, also it was:

-- disciplined (Husaria did not always brake the enemy formation after the first charge, on numerous occasions they had to charge again and again - so they had to be really disciplined to engage and disengage the enemy a couple of times in a single battle);

-- 2 rows, due to the fact they are perfectly formed, they don't take to much space, and the width spacing I made 90 (though I think it could be even 80 or 75);

-- slower charge speed (16) than run speed (20), I applied that because from what I've read about Husaria's tactics, they didn't actually charge in gallop as it would easily brake their formation (and it was their formation that added to their effectiveness), and so they used to charge at slower pace (in polish it's cwal, I have no idea how to say it in English), the result of charge speed being slower than run speed looks pretty good in battle, as they slow down a bit at the last lets say 40 meters before the enemy formation, and they keep their own knee-to-knee formation at the same time, this slow down is 100% historically correct so why not to apply it here.

And thank you all for your kind words, guys.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Quote[/b] ]Please send me the Textures and txt files You've made.

I'm not really sure if I should send them now - they're not actually ready yet. I only made them look good, but they cant fight yet. What I mean is that I made only the images for a cavalryman sitting still (which I used for all unit's actions: run, stand, walk, charge, fight, die), and though IMHO they can use the same action for walk, charge, run, and stand, I believe I have to make them an appropriate animation for fight action. About die action, I'm not really sure If I want to do it, and for the time being I'll leave it the same as stand action. I don't use 3D modeling programs, it's all drawing by hand, so it requires some time (about 1 hour for a single picture, 1 movement animation is 12 pictures - so at least 12 hours of work). I plan to make a fight animation for palasz weapon, as I consider animations for koncerz too complicated for myself. Hopefully I'll make that animation this week, but I can't really say.
I made a sketch of 1580 campaign.txt, and oh boy, it's fun to fight with that Husaria against Turkish armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Oh, and in case you (meaning anyone) want to provide me with any pictures/files etc. send them here:
eastsidecharacter@hotmail.com

Regards,
EC

Edit: Given that I'll have enough time, I see no problem in making also graphics for other units that are going to appear in this mod. The only only is that I want to focus on cavalry units only, as they require considerably less work than infantry. And one more word about unit animations; if we decide that each unit (cavalry I mean) can do well with just two animations (fight and sit still), then it is possible to have really many units - one unit.BIF graphic could contain animations of 2-3 completely different units).

SpetzNatz

05-17-2004, 12:49

Hi, Hetman.
About that problem of Czechoslovakia, wasn't problem with borders by Versailles agreement? Czechoslovakia had to force Hungarian forces to leave Czechoslovakian border, too. And polish regime (minister Beck..) was close to German (or it seemed so). But let this problem be as it is. We won't change what happened and when Poland-Czech relationship isn't as it could be, I don't wont to make enemy from you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Could you be so kind and explain, what is this mod about? I'm lazy to read all text written here.
About Bohemians, are they in game?
I don't have lot of informations about them, sorry, may be later.

Eastside Character

05-17-2004, 13:14

Quote[/b] (SpetzNatz @ May 17 2004,06:49)]Hi, Hetman.
About that problem of Czechoslovakia, wasn't problem with borders by Versailles agreement? Czechoslovakia had to force Hungarian forces to leave Czechoslovakian border, too. And polish regime (minister Beck..) was close to German (or it seemed so). But let this problem be as it is. We won't change what happened and when Poland-Czech relationship isn't as it could be, I don't wont to make enemy from you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Could you be so kind and explain, what is this mod about? I'm lazy to read all text written here.
About Bohemians, are they in game?
I don't have lot of informations about them, sorry, may be later.
Though I'm not Hetman, but I'm Polish as well, and I have to say that no Versailles agreement or any other fact from the 20th century history has to do with this mod.

It's XVI - XVII century mod, so a couple of years before the events you brought up in your post. And as far as I know, there was no independent (or even semi-independent) Bohemia, or Czechy at that time. Whether there should be any Bohemian units in the mod, I don't know, you can tell us yourself SpetzNatz, as you should know that better I think.

Regards,
EC

SpetzNatz

05-17-2004, 13:26

Thats problem Eastside Character.
Because I'm answering to Hetman, so you can't know what we were talking about.
About that Bohemian unit. I don't know any, because Bohemians neither joined Austro-Hungarian Empire gladly, nor created any special national units.
From date, this mod takes part in, from fact that you are Polish (you and Hetman are main creators of this mod, aren't you?) and texts written here I've somehow got in mind, that Polish Winged Legend will be in game. Is it true?

SwordsMaster

05-17-2004, 13:33

@ spetz. m8, if you dont want to read ALL the posts you could read the first page at least http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Eastside Character

05-17-2004, 13:36

Quote[/b] (SpetzNatz @ May 17 2004,07:26)]1.Thats problem Eastside Character.
Because I'm answering to Hetman, so you can't know what we were talking about.

2.Polish (you and Hetman are main creators of this mod, aren't you?)

3.and texts written here I've somehow got in mind, that Polish Winged Legend will be in game. Is it true?
1. Sorry for interupting then.

2. I don't actually think so, the fact that I'm Polish as well as Hetman doesn't make me a main creator of this mod, as it's a collective work and everyone who posts in this thread tries to help in its creation. I'm simply one of those people.

3. Yes, I've even made some first graphics of Husaria. you can see them here (http://geocities.com/eastsideofwar/husaria.html).

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-17-2004, 13:44

Side note: Im continuosly using archer to refer to some spanish units.

They are not archers in the sense that they use bows.
They are archers because they used a type of axe called archa in the early period. They were NOT missile units, but melee.

Hope this makes it clearer.

BTW, Hetman, I might find something useful about the Caballos Leigeros. (Its a Portuguese unit isnt it?)

I'll let you know.

wilpuri

05-17-2004, 14:30

http://home.student.uu.se/o/orma1967/Kungar/index.htm
-Portraits of Swedish kings

http://members.tripod.com/minata/sv_kungar.html#aaa
-A LOT of portraits of swedish royalty, including females, for princesses. All in black and white, though.

ThijsP

05-17-2004, 14:49

Dutch generals should have a bodygourd of pikeman with roundschieldLike here (http://www.legermuseum.nl/nieuws/Van%20Breen%20aanwinst.html)

here are some portraits of dutch kings.Scroll down to Stadthouders van oranje nassau (http://home-l2.tiscali.nl/~mgelten/Staatshoofden/Staatshoofden.htm) The title should be prince. Titles of provinces should be Stadthouder.

Office titles :

Raadspensionaris
+3 Acumen
+2 Loyalty

Advocaat van Holland
+x Acumen
+x Loyalty

Admiraal Generaal
+x Command
+x Loyalty

Eastside Character

05-17-2004, 16:36

ThijsP,
Could you find some other, larger pictures of those round shield pikemen, the ones you provided are too small to use them for making info pics of quality similar to other info pics I'm now making.

Regards,
EC

ThijsP

05-17-2004, 18:07

Large pic with the shield on the back here (http://home.wxs.nl/~Kees.Leseman/leger.html)

Ostrogski

05-17-2004, 18:15

@EC

Very very good Im impressed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

very small things... make a feather white, it will be better

(sorry...)

Eastside Character

05-17-2004, 22:34

An update on info pictures

Click this link to see what do we have now. (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/infopicturesforXVI_XVIImod.html)

As you can see the quality of the pictures differs a bit, as the files used to make those pics were of different quality. However, I think they look quite alike and should do.

A request to Hetman:
Could you please put unit rosters for all the factions in one post, so we would all see it clear and wouldn't have to browse all the pages (the thread is developing so fast) in order to find some of the most essential information. You could simply edit your first post and put it all there. I'd really appreciate it, as every time I try to comprehend it all, I get lost. This would make things more clear, and we'd be able to see what exactly do we have here.

Thanx in advance.

Quote[/b] ]very small things... make a feather white, it will be better

Yes, I guess the feathers should be brighter, as also SwordsMaster earlier remarked.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-17-2004, 22:52

great pics EC.

The cannon thing is called FALCONETE, and the pikeman looks more like a CORSELET than a normal pikeman.

Also, a suggestion, to avoid misspelling in unit names write them in capitals.

Another Spanish pike unit:

PICAS SECAS: (half pikes)

disciplined
good morale
40 men
fast
attack 3
defence 5
armour 2
charge 4
bonus against cavs

this unit was armed with short pikes (about 2.5 - 3m) instead of the 5 m. and were lighly armoured (helm and leather cuirasse) they also carried a sword and and a dagger and usually also a pistol.

Its gonna be hard to find a pic tho.

French musketeers:
http://www.icorso.com/img_ala_16.jpg

Picture of the general Ambrosio Spinola I mentioned before

http://www.icorso.com/img_ala_13.jpg

Another pic, which is a recreation of the back of that picture of Breda i posted before. It might be useful...The spanish soldiers are on the left and Dutch on the right.

http://www.icorso.com/img_ala_15.jpg

I think the spanish have half a dozen pike units already....
If you see there are too many of them, remove the italian labelled units except cavalry, they were very similar to the native spanish ones, and can be grouped altogether.

Wish me luck for the exam tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

Nomad

05-18-2004, 09:15

Looks like things are happening with this mod,
Nice stuff Eastside. Glad there's going to be some fresh animations. I've Been reading through the various unit roster's and was wondering shouldn't the Spanish Marine Corp be represented, as they were the some of the best kick ass spanish units of the 16th century. Marine Corps units would of course, be slightly better equiped and have better honour/morale than there land based counterparts.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-18-2004, 09:46

EC

I don't think the Pope should have any influence on what catholic factions do, especially that there are going to be much fewer of them in this mod compared to MTW. What do you guys think about it?

Calling for crusade seems to be easy to remove - deleting crusade and making it impossible to build should be enough.
Excommunication. I'm going to leave this the way it is. Because this way the Pope could 'control' foreign policy in some way - Hapsburgs are encouraged to fight protestant countries and the Ottomans this way.
And this should recreate the religious conflicts which were common at that time i.e. France with large minority of protestants is starting the war vs. Hapsburgs ( both catholic factions) they are excommunicated
- this results in many rebellions, exactly like in the period of time.
Granting money - catholic countries fighing the Ottomans were given some money quite often. I ask why not - it's not much cash, but it's realistic at least.

SwordsMaster

PS: BTW, guys do you like the sig?

Yes, very good.

1- Are we going to implement a general unit?
2- If yes, then just call the spanish general unit Maestre de Campo.
The Maestre de Campo had a guard of 8 heavily armed and armoured halberdiers that received really good salaries, so they fought to death.

Good idea. I need more for other factions.

About factions: Include NAvarre in early, but not in High or Late.They had some privileges, but they paid taxes and soldiers to the spanish king as everyone else.
Instead, include Genoa in High, coz those guys substituted the Spanish as the first naval power in the mediterranean in around 1620.

This is the kind of info I really need.

PROTESTANT RELIGION

I've just done the re-naming pagan into orthodox and orthodox into protestant. And although it is only the tip of the f*** big iceberg it is really good to se 'Hungary a Protestant Faction' in info panel.
For Protestant icon I used the current catholic piety icon.

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-18-2004, 09:54

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 17 2004,06:32)]palasz weapon, as I consider animations for koncerz too complicated for myself.
Regards,
EC
You could use a sabre for Husaria.
In the NTW are really good examples of this weapon.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Hetman

05-18-2004, 10:00

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 17 2004,16:34)]A request to Hetman:
Of course. I'll post every unit idea + faction in one post.

Do You need more info than this ?

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Eastside Character

05-18-2004, 10:15

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 18 2004,03:54)]
Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 17 2004,06:32)]palasz weapon, as I consider animations for koncerz too complicated for myself.
Regards,
EC
You could use a sabre for Husaria.
In the NTW are really good examples of this weapon.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Ok, can be sabre. I simply wanted to give them some more distinctive weapon, and palasz is in fact a kind of heavy sabre.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-18-2004, 11:34

Soma more historical stuff:

Italy:

Italy was divided: Sicily, The kingdom of NAples, Milan-Lombrdy, belonged to Spain, Rome to the pope (at least as long as we are concerned), and all the rest, except Genoa and Venetia was french.I am not too sure right now whos were the islands of Corsica and Sardinia, but I think if you give the norther island to France and the Southern to Spain, that would be fair.Or give them both to France...

Spain should be something like the HRE in the original game, very tough soldiers, but expensive and with very long borders to protect against more or less everyone else.And lands in the Netherlands that are surrounded by enemies, and theres no easy way of getting there, except by sea.

The Spanish possesions in Africa were reduced to the lands around the cities of Ceuta, Melilla and Oran.

Quote[/b] ]shouldn't the Spanish Marine Corp be represented,

hmmm....maybe your right, and to get out of the monotony of Pike- musket units....

Something like this:

SPANISH MARINES or TERCIO DE FLOTA

unit size:30
elite, disciplined
charge 5
attack 6
defence 3
armour 3
maybe some bonus when attempting an amphibious assault.
armed with sword, harquebus, dagger and 2 pistols.

I wont be able to find a picture, im afraid...

I still have to post some desc and pics of the foot royal guards.

Ok. now Im going to get some info about the French. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Eastside Character

05-18-2004, 11:49

You're doing a really great job providing all that information, SwordsMaster, keep it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-18-2004, 13:05

Thanks m8.
You are doing a really good graphical work.

I think Im more focused in the investigation work now that Im in the middle of the finals, just to avoid studying....must be a psychological thing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Anyways: some info about french army:

Quote[/b] ]The French monarchy was the main enemy of the Spanish kings during the first part of the XVI century (1500 - 1557) and from 1635 to 1700.

During most of the XVI century the French army had a good cavalry and a good artillery but a poor infantry, especially the native one. Most of the best French infantry was composed from Swiss (6 000 to 16 000 men) and German mercenaries (5 000 to 10 000 landsknechts). The rest was composed by French mercenary companies or local militias drawn up for the campaign. It seems that a French company used to have at that time 400 men (10 officers, 240 pikemen and 150 harquebusiers).

The offensive forces of the French army were the cavalry. The cavalry was organised into Lances, each comprising one gendarme (heavy cavalryman), two mounted archers (a lighter version of the gendarmes), one coustillier (a light horseman) and two non-combatants. The lances were organised in company of ordinance of 100 lances ==> 400 horsemen.

In 1523, the French king Francois I invaded Italy with 1350 French lances (17 companies), 480 Italian lances, and 27 000 infantrymen, around 34 000 men in total.

The religion wars from 1560 and 1598 would destroy the military power of France even if one of the warlord the duke of Guise created the first 3 permanents regiment (Picardie, Piémont, and Champagne).

7.4.2 from 1598 to 1660

With the end of the religion wars, the new French king Henri IV began to reorganise his estate and the military forces of the kingdom. His reform would follow the path of the Dutch system imported in France by French Huguenot who fought with Maurice of Nassau. The reorganisation of the French army would continue with the cardinal Richelieu and the King Louis XIII.

In 1602 the French infantry was organised in permanent regiments (the old regiments and the small old
regiments) and provisional regiments raised for a campaign. Regiments were organised in 20 companies of 120 men with 40% of pikemen and 60% of harquebusiers/musketeers.

In 1635, cardinal Richelieu reorganised the army with 19 permanent regiments of 30 companies and more than 114 regiments of 12 - 20 companies. Each companies had some 53 men (1 captain, 1 lieutenant, 1 ensign, 2 sergeants, 1-2 drummers, 3 caporals and 44 privates). Some regiment like the Gardes Françaises regiment had more than 20 companies, 30 companies of 300 men (in theory) in this case.

In the following tables we show the evolution of the french company without the high officers (captain, lieutnant and ensign) from 1635 to 1659.

Cavalry was also reorganised by Richelieu in regiments. Each cavalry regiment consisted of 2 squadrons of 2 companies. A cavalry company would have between 100 and 37 men from 1635 to 1659. Cavalry was organised in:
- heavy regiments armed with swords and pistols and protected by an armor (back and breastplate)
- light regiments armed with swords and pistols and with little protection
- dragoon regiments armed with swords and light muskets or carabines and with no protection

Review returns for the period 1635-1643 show that companies had an actual strength of about 40 to 50 troopers. In the battlefield the cavalry was organised in squadrons of 120 - 150 men strength deployed on 3 rows.

Thats all I could get...

Trax

05-18-2004, 13:50

Quote[/b] ]I am not too sure right now whos were the islands of Corsica and Sardinia,

Corsica belonged to Genua and Sardinia to Spain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

SwordsMaster

05-18-2004, 16:23

cheers m8. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Datka

05-18-2004, 22:07

Hello. Good thing you are doing, people.

I have a suggesttion: what about adding one more faction? A Georgian one. You need somebody to stand against the Turkish in the east right? :). Besides, this faction will be absolutely different from all the others, which will make the game more interesting, I think.
Historically it would be absolutely correct, because the whole our 16-17 centuries history is just an endless list of battles against the invading Turkish and Iranians.
I can provide you with the historical information, needed for making a faction.
What do you people think about it? Isn't it better than adding several Italian factions which practically won't differ from each other?

SwordsMaster

05-18-2004, 22:19

More info about the french:

Quote[/b] ]the army of Louis XIV 1660 - 1715

The young French king Louis XIV, with the help of competent advisers (le Telliers, Turenne, Vauban,
Colbert etc..), organised a powerful French army. The army was divided in :
- The Maison Militaire du Roi (Louis XIV’s household troops) it was composed of the Gardes du Corps (4 companies of 400 horses), Chevaux-Légers (1 company of 200 horses), Gendarme (1 companie of 200 horses), the Mousquetaires de la Garde (2 companies of 250 horses), the Grenadiers à Cheval de la Maison du Roi (1 company of 250 horses), added in 1671 and the two foot regiment: Gardes Françaises regiment (30 companies of 200 men in 1671) and the gardes suisses regiment (12 to 16 companies of 200 men).
- The gendarmerie of France was the elite of the french cavalry, but was not technically part of the king’s household (16 companies of 80 to 200 horses)
- Line Infantry, Line Cavalry and dragoons
- fortress battalions and guns and the Militia.

In the line infantry, the main unit was the regiment but it was sub-divided in permanent battalions. By 1670, each battalion had 14 companies of infantrymen and 1 company of grenadiers. With the increase of firepower, the french battalion was reduced in 1695 to 12 company of infantrymen and 1 company of grenadier.

Infantrymen were first armed with musket and pike, but by 1680 the French Army introduced the flint musket or fusil and the bayonet. The pike disappeared completely in 1700.
The organisation of the line cavalry was changed in 1672, to regiment of 4 to 6 companies strong. Each company would have 54 horsemen with the 3 officers which made a regiment 340 men strong (with the regiment staff). Cavalrymen had little protection (maybe a buffcoat for some officers)and their main weapon was a sword (89.3 cm long) a pair of flintlock pistols and a carabine. Light cavalry was from east Europe, even if the first native Hussar Regiment (Hussard-Royaux) was created in 1690. Dragoon regiment were organised somewhat like a line-cavalry regiment, and had the same equipment except a long flintlock musket instead of the carabine.

the artillery was organised in 1666 in 6 guns companies which became the regiment of Fusillier du Roi in 1671, later changed to regiment Royal de l'Artillery in 1693. In 1684 the french created also the regiment Royal-Bombardier with the mortars and siege guns companies and the engineers companies.

I think thats all I can get for now.

Eastside Character

05-18-2004, 23:14

Quote[/b] (Datka @ May 18 2004,16:07)]Hello. Good thing you are doing, people.

I have a suggesttion: what about adding one more faction? A Georgian one. You need somebody to stand against the Turkish in the east right? :). Besides, this faction will be absolutely different from all the others, which will make the game more interesting, I think.
Historically it would be absolutely correct, because the whole our 16-17 centuries history is just an endless list of battles against the invading Turkish and Iranians.
I can provide you with the historical information, needed for making a faction.
What do you people think about it? Isn't it better than adding several Italian factions which practically won't differ from each other?
Hello Datka,

As far as I'm concerned, I would really like to see each and every independent (well or semi-independent) faction there really was in the times this mod covers. I'm all for historical accuracy as long as it can fit the mod. I wouldn't disregard any Italian faction, as every single faction (even if it owns only one province) adds to the game's playability and changes the gameplay in this way or another.

Was Georgia an independent country during the timespan this mod covers? The maps I have don't give a clear answer to this.

--> maps on pages (http://www.euratlas.com/time2.htm)

Regards,
EC

Datka

05-19-2004, 00:07

Hi, Eastside Charachter

Well this maps gives an answer :) : in 16-17 cent. Georgia was divided into several kingdoms and principalities (it happened to the united Georgian kingdom in 1460-s). This states were fighting for independance against Turkey and Iran. Sometimes with more success, sometimes with less. The most sagnificant was Kartli, which u can also see on these maps. This kingdom often succeeded in resistance to the invaders despite being totally outnumbered and having less develoed weapons at the same time.
Numerous battles were fought in this period of Georgian history, so historically it would be correct to add a faction:).

Datka

05-19-2004, 00:23

Yeah, and I have nothing against Italian factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif . I just ment, that if there are no more vacancies for the new factions, it's better to add a faction, which is different from all the others, and playing which is quite tough, rather than adding the one, which is similiar to several others. Just an opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 08:28

Hi, Eastside Character http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I saw your info pics. Good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif But I recommend you to darken the bottom of unit pics (as it made in background pic). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I noticed that your are not sure about names of Russian units. I offer these:

- Russian Nobles Cavalry
- Pomestnaya Cavalry or just Russian Cavalry (see my post on page 5 of this thread)
- Streltsy or Strelzy (Russian riflemen)
- Ryndy or Ryndas (Russian royal bodyguards). They could be mounted or dismounted. You can make them cavalrymen with dismount option or just infantry unit (because they were dismounted during service in palace).

Hetman

05-19-2004, 09:12

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 18 2004,04:15)]quote]
Ok, can be sabre. I simply wanted to give them some more distinctive weapon, and palasz is in fact a kind of heavy sabre.

Regards,
EC
They were using special 'Husaria sabre' though.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

Hetman

05-19-2004, 09:20

Quote[/b] (Datka @ May 18 2004,18:23)]Yeah, and I have nothing against Italian factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif . I just ment, that if there are no more vacancies for the new factions, it's better to add a faction, which is different from all the others, and playing which is quite tough, rather than adding the one, which is similiar to several others. Just an opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I'd like to add a very different faction and Georgia is quite good choice I think, but it really depends what info we get about them - units especially.
Please post some as soon as possible.

Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Hetman

05-19-2004, 09:22

It's going to be massive so beware...

The list is not finished. For this reason this post will be updated from time to time.

/////Units for several factions even for all of them/////

Lancknecht Pikemen,

Lancknecht Armoured Pikemen

Lancknecht Halbardiers,

Lancknecht Arquebusiers,

Mounted Crossbows,

German Reiters
- pistols, heavy armour,

Lancers
- heavy cavalry in 'early',

Mounted Arquebusiers,

Mercenary Cuirassiers ( high+),

Mercenary Pikemen,

Mercenary Musketeers,

Mercenary Dragoons,

Pavisiers
- pavise and spear ( gothic sergeants),

Mercenary Archers,

Town Militia Shot - 'Town Militia';

Mercenary Arquebusiers,

Mercenary Crossbows,

General - small unit for commanding, for most of factions,

///////regional units i.e. for many factions//////

Italian Mounted Crossbowmen,

Hanza Town Militia
- halberd,

Courland Reiters
- also called Livland Cuirassiers,

Moldavian Cavalry
- spear, wooden shield, similar to current horsemen.

Moldavian Skirmishers
- armed with javelins, current Slav Jav. picture is quite good for the unit.

Wallachian Cavalry;

Bohemian Pikemen, 'Kopinici'
- both for Protestant factions only,
Bohemian Musketeers, 'Musketyri'

Czeremis Cavalry - 'Czeremisi'

Czerkies ( Cherkesses),

//////Poland=///////

Polish Strzelcy ( Shooters) - 'Strzelcy'
- horse archers, compound bows,

Polish Cossacks - 'Kozacy'
- light cavalry,

Lipkowie cavalry ( Lithuanian Tatars) from Poland, - 'Lipkowie'

Wybraniecka Infantry pikemen, - 'Wybraniecka infantry'

Wybraniecka Infantry with muskets, - 'Wybraniecka infantry'
Pancerni cavalry - 'Pancerni';

Petyhorcy cavalry - 'Petyhorcy';

Dragoni Cavalry or Polish Dragoons - 'Dragoni';

Polish Light Cavalry,

Husaria, - 'Husaria'

Szlachta ( Polish Nobles) cavalry, - 'Szlachta'

Frontier Szlachta ( Frontier Polish Nobles) cavalry,

- 'Kresowa Szlachta'

Lisowczyk Mercenary Cavalry,

Cuirassiers ( Polish Reiters), 'Raitarzy'

Polish Foreign Pikemen,

Polish Foreign Musketeers,

Reformed Polish infantry
- Wybraniecka musketeers with axe-like berdishi ( berdysz), similar to Russian inf,

- 'Wybraniecka infantry'

//////Hungary - Transylvania - replaces Hungary in 'high' and 'late';/////

Hungarian infantry
- so called 'Hajduk' ( remember polish 'Janosik' tv series),v

Serbian Hussar Cavalry
- 'Racowie' cavalry ( also for Poland, known as 'Ussars')

////Spain=//////

Spanish Corselet,

Spanish pikemen,

Wallon corselet,

Wallon pikeman,

Spanish Harquebusiers,

Spanish Musketeers,

Wallon Musketeers,

Wallon Harquebusiers,

Italian Corselets,

Italian Pikemen,

Italian Musketeers,

Fourageers,

Spanish Reformed Musketeers ( bigger units),

Spanish Reformed Pikemen ( smaller units),

Spanish Arbalesters,

'Encamisados',

'Picas Secas' ( halfpikes so shorter pikes, 'long spears'),

Harquebusiers cavalry,

'Hombres de armas' cavalry - lance and pistol armed,

'Jinetes' - light lancers,

'Maestre de Campo' bodyguards ( 8 men halbardier unit),

'Herreruelo' - Spanish cuirassiers,

Later Spanish Royal Guards ( lighter armoured, no lance),

Later Hombres de armas cavalry - sword and pistol armed,

Later Jinetes - light cav no lance,

Carabiniers cavalry,

Rodeleros,

Royal guards - cavalry units -
Men at Arms - Spanish Royal Guards ( knights - lancers),

'The Estradiotes',

'Archeros de Borgona',

Royal guard infantry unit -
'Guardia du corps' - halbard & arquebus,

///////France=//////

Royal Swiss Pikemen,

French Royal Foot Pikemen,

French Royal Foot Arquebusiers,

French Gendarmes,

French Chevaux,

French Musketeers,

French Pikemen,

French Royal Musketeers,

//////Venetia - replaces Italian;/////

//////England=/////

Billmen,

Longbowmen,

New Model Army Pikemen,

New Model Army Musketeers,

'Ironsides' (Paliamentarian Cuirassiers),

//////Danes=/////

///////Russia=/////

Noble cavalry - 'Znat' cavalry - elite unit;

'Pomestnaya Konnitsa' - basic, average cavalry;

Mounted Streltsy - from 'high' - 'Stremenniye Streltsy';

Ryndas - mounted, but can dismount in every battle ( Tzar's bodyguard);

- 'Ryndy'

Kormovye Dragoons- regiments of so-called Komarits dragoons, - after military reform - like western dragoons;

- 'Draguny'

'Reytary' - after military reform - like western cuirassiers;

Cossacks on the state service - 'Gorodoviye Kazaki';

Russian hussars - copy of polish husaria ( but weaker), from 'late' - in Novgorod only

- 'Gusary'

Lancers - copy of polish pancerni ( but weaker), from 'late' - in Chernichov and Smolensk only;

- 'Stremenniye Kopeyshchiki'

INFANTRY

Russian harquebusers - 'Pishchalshchiki'

militia ( armed crowd) - 'Opolcheniye'

Streltsy - from 'high' - 'Streltsy'

Datochnye ( Conscripted) Gorodovye - after military reform

pikemen and musketeers ( weaker than western infantry, but cheaper);

- 'Datochnye Gorodovye Soldaty'
- 'Datochnye Gorodovye Kopeyshchiki'

Datochnye Vybrannye ( guard infantry)- from 'late'

pikemen and musketeers

- 'Datochnye Vybrannye Soldaty'
- 'Datochnye Vybrannye Kopeyshchiki'

//////Ukraine - replaces Byzantine in 'late';//////

Zaporozhian Cossacks - infantry - pikemen, v
- 'musketers',

Zaporozhian Cossacks wagon infantry - if BKB succeeds the unit will be very powerful,

Cossack Sotnia - cavalry,

Cossack Veteran cavalry,

Ukrainian Peasants - so called 'czern',

//////Ottoman - replaces Turkish;///////

Waiting for Cebei and Mouzafphaerre's research.

/////Crimean Tatar - replaces Almohad/////

Nogay Tatars
- horde of poor nomads ( No offence Nomad :)) - 'Nogay Asker';

Tatar Horsemen - 'Atli Tatarlar';

Tatar Scouts - 'Izci Tatarlar';

Crimean Cavalry -bodyguard unit - 'Kirim Suvari';

'Kipchak Asker';

'Keffe Bekci' - small units of infantry;

/////Austria or Hapsburg HRE - replaces German HRE;///////

Croat Light Cavalry
- broadsword, pistols, cuirass helmet

Empire Reiters,

Roundshielder,

Empire Cuirassiers,

//////Burgundy;////// - I'm not sure about this,

/////Sweden - replaces Novgorod;/////

Dalkarlar (early) - infantry;

Svennar elite infantry and cavalry for 'early';

Hakkapeliitta cavalry,

Finnish Hakkapeliitta infantry - pikemen +
- muskets

Smalands cavalry - 'Smaland ryttare';

Swedish Cuirassiers - 'Upplands ryttare';

Swedish Pikemen, - 'Pikenerare'

Swedish Musketeers, - 'Musketerare'

Swedish Dragoons, - 'Dragoner'

Swedish 'commanded' musketeers - smaller units, the same textures though.

- 'Kommanderade musketörer'

Drabanterna (early, high) Elite unit (best of the best), the kings bodyguard - infantry,

Kungliga Maj:ts garde och livregemente - bodyguards for 'late' - infantry,

/////Portugal - replaces Aragon;/////

//////Egypt - only in 'early';//////

Mamluk Horse Archers,

Mamluk Cavalry,

Egyptian Cavalry - Your ( EC) Info_Pic is very good for this.

Mamluk Arquebusiers,

Egyptian Camel Guns,

Saharan Cavalry,

Beduin Camel Warriors,

///////////Dutch/////////////

Dutch Pikemen - bodyguard unit; - 'Piekeniers'

Dutch Musketeers, - 'Musketiers'

Dutch Mounted Harquebusiers, - 'Bereden Harquebusiers'

Dutch Reiters - 'Ghemeijn ruyteren';

Dutch Cuirassiers - 'Gheappoicteerde curassiers';

/////The Knights of St. John - replaces Sicilian;//////

//////Pope - not playable;//////

//////Swiss///////

Swiss Armoured Pikemen,

Swiss Pikemen,

Swiss Halbardiers,

additional factions - not in the first release, though;

///////Saxony///////

Saxony LifeGuard,

///////Scotland///////

Scottish Archers ( mercenaries),

Highland Clansmen,

Scottish Pikemen,
- also mercenaries.
Scottish Musketeers,

Scottish Royal Guards - pikemen,
- musketeers,

//////Navarre////////

///////Florence///////

////////Genoa///////

/////Brandenburg///////

//////Bavaria/////////

///////Persia - only in case of map changes;///////

////////Georgia///////////////////

For now as a kind of regional unit available to all factions ( not for Ottomans),

Speramen Mkhedrebi - cavalry - 'Shubosani Mkhedrebi'

Swordsmen Mkhedrebi - cavalry - 'Khmlosani Mkhedrebi'

Elite Mkhedrebi - This is the royal unit - 'Elite Mkhedrebi'

Infantry:

Georgian Foot Warriors, - 'Kveiti Meomrebi'

Georgian Riflemen, - 'Metopheni'

Georgian Mountainers, - 'Mtiulebi'

Aragvian Warriors, - 'Aragvlebi'

Poland and Russia probably are finished.

New Agents ( 'welcome Mr.Anderson...');

Venetian Envoy - cheaper emissary,

Protestant Preacher - priest for protestant factions, high converting power,

The Jesuits - instead of grand inquisitor, high converting ability,

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-19-2004, 09:23

SwordsMaster

It is not only that pikes shouldnt be broken by cavs, they were specifically designed to fight them, so the ratio of kills should be REALLY favoravle to pikes. I mean, dont make them too weak just to make Hussars more impressive.

Don't worry, although I like the unit a lot I'm not going to unbalance the game. I'm going to weaken cavalry ( they were not medieval knights after all) and the pikemen.
First reason - more realistic Husaria.
Second reason - some units were very effective in fighting pikemen, and this way they won't be too powerful against other units.
Finally - pikemen had to rely on fighting in formation not alone, they were not skirmishers after all - remember that any unit fighting in 'hold formation' adds +2 to it's defence.

They are not archers in the sense that they use bows.
They are archers because they used a type of axe called archa in the early period. They were NOT missile units, but melee.

So maybe ARCHAS OR ARCHAROS ?

Eastside Character

-- slower charge speed (16) than run speed (20), I applied that because from what I've read about Husaria's tactics, they didn't actually charge in gallop as it would easily brake their formation (and it was their formation that added to their effectiveness), and so they used to charge at slower pace (in polish it's cwal, I have no idea how to say it in English), the result of charge speed being slower than run speed looks pretty good in battle, as they slow down a bit at the last lets say 40 meters before the enemy formation, and they keep their own knee-to-knee formation at the same time, this slow down is 100% historically correct so why not to apply it here.

Well EC... 'cwal' is the fastest gallop actually...
But You are right when it comes to slower charge speed. Husaria charged
in such way that the second rank was starting the charge before the first rank.
So I think the unit should move as follows - move 12 ( high stamina steeds), run 22 ( should be faster than Swedish Cuirassiers) and charge
19.
I think this is going to work much better.

SpetzNatz

About that problem of Czechoslovakia, wasn't problem with borders by Versailles agreement?

No the agreement was after the Czech army invaded the territory next to Olza.

And polish regime (minister Beck..) was close to German (or it seemed so)

Never, although some sources claim this is true. Poland balanced between Russia and Germany this way bought some time ( 3 years or more)
Actually Polish leader Pilsudzki tried to encourage French to wage a pre-emptive war in 1934-35 but was unsuccesfull and Poland signed the 'anti-agression' pact to buy some time.
I really regret our countries didn't try to fight together, this way the II World War would never happen ( well... maybe against Stalin). We have lost 50 years because of that.

Could you be so kind and explain, what is this mod about? I'm lazy to read all text written here.
About that Bohemian unit. I don't know any, because Bohemians neither joined Austro-Hungarian Empire gladly, nor created any special national units.

The idea is to add some ( 1-2 is enough) Czech units for Protestant factions only ( Hungary, Brandenburg, Danish, Swedish, Saxony or other). I think You could help with this - especially when it comes to
Czech unit names and description.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Mouzafphaerre

05-19-2004, 10:18

-
Attention - Dead Moroz

Will you empty your inbox so that I can send you a PM?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
_

SwordsMaster

05-19-2004, 11:26

Quote[/b] ]German Reiters
- pistols, heavy armour,

I think the Reitars were light cavalry.

For the Dutch, I suggest that you reuse the Wallon units.Or just make Wallons province-dependent. The spanish wont train any more wallons if they lose Netherlands and the Spanish HRE. I think that would make it more accurate.

If You think that there are too many units, remove the Italian labelled ones.Because I will still add 3 more units to the spanish roster (3 foot royal guards).

HARQUEBUSIER cavalry and CARABINIER cavalry are the same unit.

HARQUEBUSIER cav: 1500-1640
CARABINIER cav: 1640-1700

Quote[/b] ]So maybe ARCHAS OR ARCHAROS ?

How about ARCHEROS?

About the reformed units:

Available in Late only.

When the pikemen unit is smaller,it still should be equally effective. Muskets should be more effective (maybe faster reload). Just to make a difference.

Another unit:(spanish)

RODELEROS:

available in early (dunno if should be early only)
good morale
non disciplined
+1 against pikes
charge 5
attack 4
defense 4
armour 2
fast
armed with a heavy sword and a round shield.
designed to fight between the pikes disrupting their ranks.
used from late XVcent.

Later arquebusiers and musketeers substituted them.

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 11:57

Quote[/b] (Mouzafphaerre @ May 19 2004,13:18)]-
Attention - Dead Moroz

Will you empty your inbox so that I can send you a PM?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif
_
I had the same Error Message when I was trying to send my answer to you. But my Sent Items folder shows that the message was sent.
And I received your message 4 times.
Something strange is happening with Guild server... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Hetman

05-19-2004, 12:36

I've just learn about new BKB's campaign map.
I think we could use this till we make our own for the campaign.
What do You think ?

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 12:41

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 19 2004,12:22)]///////Russia=/////

Dvor cavalry ( less common, better cav.),

Boyar cavalry ( Pomestnaya Kavaleriya),

Semen Cavalry,

Bad names for Russian cavalry
Dvors (dvoryane) were people at the service of tsar (our king). They could be not rich and noble, and they could not be warriors. The name dvoryane comes from word dvor (yard and also court), and it means people who live in estate of king (and work for him).
Dvoryane were people who first of all formed Pomestnaya (Common)Cavalry. There were smaller number of dvors who can be described as Noble Cavalry.

Boyars were the highest Russian nobles. They were ministers, governors, generals, etc. So they are definitely the part of Noble Cavalry.

And what is Semen Cavalry? I've never heard about it.

And you forgot about Russian Cossacks They were regular Russian troops since the end of 16 century.

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 19 2004,12:22)]
Russian Town militia,

Russian militia,

I think there is no need for separate Town Militia and just Militia. Just create unit Russian Militia. But I'm not sure what type of weapon they must hold. Because there was croud of people armed with any weapon they could buy or made themselves. Maybe it must be sort of light infantry.

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 19 2004,12:22)]
//////Ukraine - replaces Byzantine in 'late';//////

Zaporohian Cossacks - infantry - pikemen,
- 'musketers',

Zaporohian Cossacks wagon infantry - if BKB succeeds the unit will be very powerful,

Cossack Sotnia - cavalry,

Cossack Veteran cavalry,

Ukrainian Peasants - so called 'czern'

Please use name Zaporozhian as it sounds in Ukrainian and Russian languages.

I think you should not make separate Cossacks and Cossack Veterans. It looks like Chosen bla-bla-bla... in RTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And why are you going to create Ukrainian Peasants? They were not regular troops, but just people who temporary took part in rebellions.

ThijsP

05-19-2004, 13:19

Citaat[/b] (Hetman @ Mei 19 2004,03:22)]///////////Dutch/////////////

Dutch Pikemen,

Dutch Musketeers,

Dutch Reiters,

The Dutch cavalary concisted of:
Lancers
Harquebusiers
'ghemeijn ruyteren' (curasiers)
gheappoicteerde curassiers(heavely armoured curasiers)
http://www.cavaleriehistorie.nl/images/Ruiter-12.jpg

Eastside Character

05-19-2004, 15:17

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 19 2004,06:36)]I've just learn about new BKB's campaign map.
I think we could use this till we make our own for the campaign.
What do You think ?

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
I'd rather wait for Wes' map, as I consider it to be better. This mod (even the first release) won't be finished before Wes gets his map to work, and making new campaign.txt files for every map is in my opinion a waste of time. I think it's better not to start making a campaign.txt file before we get Wes' map. It's just too much work that we don't need to burden ourselves with.

I'd suggest we now continue our researches, work on the graphics, battlesfield maps, names, describtion, factions, units etc..

Quote[/b] ]But I recommend you to darken the bottom of unit pics (as it made in background pic).

Ok, I can do that, but it will just take some time, and this means I won't be able to do other things. My time is limitted in a way, and probably in about 50 days I'll leave you, and the Org for at least half a year. Moreover I'm now finishing my BA degree studies, so I'll be probably very busy during June, actually I'm busy with it even now. Plus I have also some other modding stuff to do: Wes requested shields/flags for the new release of MedMod, and I also have to finish the same type of stuff for Fury of the Northmen Mod. In the few upcoming days don't actually expect me to do much for this mod.

Regards,
EC

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 15:29

Pictures of cossacks:

http://desertchild.narod.ru/ukraine/kozak.jpg http://library.tup.km.ua/prosvita/images/bitva.JPG

http://library.tup.km.ua/prosvita/images/garmata.JPG http://www.artukraine.com/postcards/icons/cossack01.jpg

http://newmedia.cgu.edu/stageart/priest/cossack.jpg

http://www.chruta.kiev.ua/images/kozak_big.jpg

http://www.lviv.ua/cossacks/images/11.jpg

Zaporozhian cossack (18 century):

http://kherson225.com.ua/im-site/otkr_hron/z_kozak.jpg

Pics of different Turkic cavalrymen:

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/turk_1.jpg

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/turk_2.jpg http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/turk_3.jpg

Pic that can be used for Russian Militia unit description:

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/uniform_4.gif

SwordsMaster

05-19-2004, 15:39

great pics, Dead Moroz, the 3rd one is a classic:Cossacks writing a letter to the Tzar, isnt it called something like that?

Eastside Character

05-19-2004, 16:44

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 19 2004,09:39)]great pics, Dead Moroz, the 3rd one is a classic:Cossacks writing a letter to the Tzar, isnt it called something like that?
Rather to Sultan, not Tzar...

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-19-2004, 16:48

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

Eastside Character

05-19-2004, 20:41

Hetman sent me an e-mail, in which he asked me to post this here (as he explained he wasn't able to post it himself):

Quote[/b] ]Here You can see the campmap for the 'late' era.
The Cossack revolt just started (purple).
It's easy to change faction colour so I want to see Your
proposals.

As You can see some changes are necessary i.e. new factions -
Saxony, Brandenburg, Scotland - to make Protestants stronger +
something in Italy.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

And he attatched this screenshot (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/Hetmanmapa.html?1084995213510).

Regards,
EC

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 20:51

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 19 2004,19:44)]
Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 19 2004,09:39)]great pics, Dead Moroz, the 3rd one is a classic:Cossacks writing a letter to the Tzar, isnt it called something like that?
Rather to Sultan, not Tzar...
Yes, it's Cossacks writing a letter to Sultan by our famous painter Repin.

Dead Moroz

05-19-2004, 21:08

BTW, if you going to create Scotland as playable faction you can use my little mod making Scotish highlandclansmen looks like they really wear kilt. Look for KiltMod.zip in org's download section.

P.S. Sorry for spam. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

SwordsMaster

05-19-2004, 22:21

Ok, sorry about my lack of pictoric culture. I remembered it was Repin´s but didnt remember who were they writing to...

Anyway, I wanted to talk about the map:

Italy:

In that gap between France and Rome should go Genoa at least, and maybe even another faction.
Rome should be given to the Pope? if we are going to include him at all.

N.Africa:

I cant remember right now, but Im sure something was going on there as well, apart from the Ottomans.

I just checked in the page that EC gave us a few posts ago (invaluable tool, *bows to EC*) and discovered that the kingdom of FEZ occupied the N. African gap.

Baltic:

The french and the Swedes have the same color.I suggest purple for Sweden, but that is more of a estetic consideration.

Central Europe:

In that gap should go half a dozen independent regions if Im not mistaken.

But hey, it looks VERY promising.

How about the other two eras?

Hetman

05-20-2004, 08:59

SwordsMaster

HARQUEBUSIER cavalry and CARABINIER cavalry are the same unit.
HARQUEBUSIER cav: 1500-1640
CARABINIER cav: 1640-1700

Different names require different units in crusaders_unit_prod

+1 against pikes

Swordsmen always get this bonus fighting spearmen/pikemen.

How about ARCHEROS?

Fine to me.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-20-2004, 09:02

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 19 2004,16:21)]1.The french and the Swedes have the same color.I suggest purple for Sweden, but that is more of a estetic consideration.

2.How about the other two eras?
1.I'm using darker, deeper blue for them.

2.I can't post pictures myself, but I've just sent the screen for 'high' to EC.

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Lord Zimoa of Flanders

05-20-2004, 09:33

Looking forward to this one,the progress seems very nice good luck to all involved http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-20-2004, 10:27

Dead Moroz

FIRST. Thanks for the info and pictures. Second, remember that it's just first 'pre-release' unit list.

Bad names for Russian cavalry

I know, but I didn't know how to call them - that's why I invited You to join ( remember the PM).

I think you should not make separate Cossacks and Cossack Veterans. It looks like Chosen bla-bla-bla... in RTW

The problrm is that during the Chmielnicki's revolt there were average Cossack units and 'elite' ones which should be more difficult to create. The veterans are for Cossack faction only, they really need something like that.

And why are you going to create Ukrainian Peasants? They were not regular troops, but just people who temporary took part in rebellions.

Yes, but the Cossacks enter the game as rebels actually. They need cheap ( meaning expendable) infantry for castle assaults, and garrison purposes. Besides the peasants are going to be better than ordinary ones.

SwordsMaster

In that gap between France and Rome should go Genoa at least, and maybe even another faction.
Rome should be given to the Pope? if we are going to include him at all.

I want him to be included and Rome is given to him actually, but the Pope's faction colour is to similar to the Spanish one.

the kingdom of FEZ occupied the N. African gap.

Yes, but 1. this means more units, info and so on.
2. For now I only replaced the existing factions with some new, I haven't added anything yet.

In that gap should go half a dozen independent regions if Im not mistaken.

The same as above.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

SwordsMaster

05-20-2004, 12:56

For the german territories, you could give them a mixture of german HRE troops + militia type soldiers.

BTW, I think every nation should have some militia unit (like Peasants in the original game), expendable, huge, and cheap, Ideal for garrison duties.

About Fez...it looks more complicated,I'll try to find something about them, but It looks hard....Anyway, with some inaccuracy, maybe we could make Morocco instead of Fez.

Another question, this mod is for vanilla MTW, or VI?
I just realized I didnt know... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

About Portugal:

I couldnt find anything specific, they had the same generic troops as all Europe, similar to the spanish ones, I'll try get something more info tho.The only unit that the Portuguese should have exclusively is the Iesuit (something like a Cardinal).

Portugal and Spain were a joint kingdom from 1581-1668, ruled by a Spanish king.Portugal should be technologically advanced, and rich country (due more to the colonies than its own production).

No info about units yet...

Datka

05-20-2004, 15:40

Quote[/b] ]Portugal and Spain were a joint kingdom from 1478-1668
Well, actually it was in 1581-1640. Before 1581 Portugal was independent.

Hetman

About Georgian units:

Well, this faction will be very specific. It should have a weak gunpower side, but stron hand-to-hand fighting units, especially strong cavalry.
The units:

Cavalry:

1.Speramen Mkhedrebi - cavalry with especially strong charge

2. Swordsmen Mkhedrebi - cav. with especially strong attack

3. Elite Mkhedrebi - cav. armed with sword and bow. They are a bit stronger than sword mkhedrebi in hand to hand fighting, and also have a bow. This is the royal unit

Infantry:

1. Georgian Foot Warriors - armes with sword. good average infantry.
2. Georgian riflemen - armed with rifle and sword. in hand-to hand fighting are similiar to the Foot Warriors. In shooting should have power of an average European unit, but have less unit's size.
3. Georgian Mountainers - armed with spear and shield. have good attack and very strong charge.
4. Aragvian Warriors - armed with sword and shield. very good charge an excellent attack.

All units should have average defence and not very good armour, but very good moral.
Riflemen should not be in Early

Artillery
no artillery in Early
in high and late - one-cannon units only.

SwordsMaster

05-20-2004, 16:10

Quote[/b] ]Portugal and Spain were a joint kingdom from 1478-1668

Well, actually it was in 1581-1640. Before 1581 Portugal was independent.

Ok, thanks for the correction. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif but You are wrong, the treaty that granted independence to Portugal was signed in 1668.

Must have been a mistake in the source page, coz I just copied the date.

Can you get any images of those units?

Was there any cav unit armed with arquebus/musker/carabine?

Datka

05-20-2004, 17:00

Quote[/b] ]Can you get any images of those units?
Not sure about this regretfully. Anyway, if i cant get them, its possible to change mtw units appearance a bit.

Quote[/b] ]Was there any cav unit armed with arquebus/musker/carabine?

No

Hetman

05-21-2004, 08:27

ThijsP

Could You add something more about the cavalry i.e. were the cavalrymen Dutch or German, what was their main weapon etc.

Dead Moroz

Boyars were the highest Russian nobles. They were ministers, governors, generals, etc. So they are definitely the part of Noble Cavalry.

Thanks for the explanation. It is very interestiong.
I was mistaken because in Polish language the Russian nobles are called 'boyars' ( bojarzy) regardles of their real rank.

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-21-2004, 08:32

I added another topic 'XVI-XVII research'-factions, titles, provinces, trade goods and so on.

Please post any info You find useful.

Post there - provinces and trade goods, resources, titles ( including the 'national' linked to buildings - which ones, what stats and why, what building, brief description)- You know what.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-21-2004, 08:45

Because I'm not able to post pictures I need someone to do this for me as EC has just done.

This means the person who agrees will get the newest screenshots and possibly not only.

Any volunteers ?

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

ThijsP

05-21-2004, 09:47

Citaat[/b] (Hetman @ Mei 21 2004,02:27)]ThijsP

Could You add something more about the cavalry i.e. were the cavalrymen Dutch or German, what was their main weapon etc.

Dead Moroz

Boyars were the highest Russian nobles. They were ministers, governors, generals, etc. So they are definitely the part of Noble Cavalry.

Thanks for the explanation. It is very interestiong.
I was mistaken because in Polish language the Russian nobles are called 'boyars' ( bojarzy) regardles of their real rank.

Regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Dutch lancers

armour: looked allot like medieval knight armour.
armed with: 4 meter wooden lance, sword, pistol(wasnt used in attacks)

In groups of 25 they would march to the enemy. 60 meter from them they would charge with maximum speed. Then they trew away their(broken) lances and fight with their swords.

Inghemeijn ruyteren
http://www.cavaleriehistorie.nl/images/Kurassiers-11.jpg
armour: helmet, collar, breast and back plates, shoulder and arm pieces. One long iron glove for the left hand.
armed with: one 50 cm pistol( later replaced by a 60 cm carabin. and a sword.

i will post some more later.

ThijsP

05-21-2004, 12:09

gheappoicteerde curassiers
http://www.cavaleriehistorie.nl/images/Ruiter-12.jpg
Armour:the same as Inghemeijn ruyteren and tigh and knee pads. Their armour was also heavier. It could withstand a shot af a pistol.
Armed with: 3 pistols and a sword.

They had the best horses and had an extra horse to get supplies if they werent fighting.

Dutch Mounted Harquebusiers
http://www.cavaleriehistorie.nl/images/Harquebusier-13.jpg
Armour: lightly armoured with helmet, collar, breast and back plate.
Armed with: a 90 cm roer the predecessor of the carabin, and a sable.

They were light cavalary often used reconaisence. They had too little armour to fight effectively in hand to hand combat.

Hope it helped http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

wilpuri

05-21-2004, 13:17

Another picture oh Hakkapeliitta Cavalry
http://www.smb.nu/images/svenskakrig/16045.jpg

Eastside Character

05-23-2004, 20:48

Hello crew,

As you probably know Hetman emailed me a few screens, I post them now as I couldn't have done it earlier - I was away for the weekend. In the morning (today) I checked my mail but I was just too... tired... to think about it even, but now I'm fine so here it is:

screens (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/Hetmansscreens.html?1085340639340)

and a comment:

Quote[/b] ]-Portugal with new 'trade good' - the colonists added for
information purposes only.
The provinces with this 'trade good' would be able to build
Colonial House ( I used renamed Chapter House for now - that's
why vanilla 'high and late' don't appear in selection panel for
now).

- Finally info panel for factions in 'late' You can see the
Knights of ST. John, Ukrainian Cossacks and the Danes who are
Protestant faction as You can notice.

But it is much more to do before any pre-release.

Well, actually there was also other comment to those campaign arrangements, but after I figured out I need to post also that comment, I already downloaded the screens and deleted first two mails from Hetman... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Regards,
EC

wilpuri

05-23-2004, 21:11

When exactly does the Age of exploration period start? Because Finland was under Swedish rules already in the 13th century, or most of it anyway.

Eastside Character

05-23-2004, 21:31

And now a few words from me myself.

Graphics

I've made few more info pictures. I haven't yet change anything as for that Husaria graphics, tho making wings white would take not more than half an hour. I'll do it tonight. I started working on a unit graphics that may be used for such units like: Pancerni, Petryhorcy, Russian Nobles Cavalry, Pomenstnaya Cavalry, and maybe some Crimean and/or Ottoman units (raiders in chainmail, eastern type). I was also thinking about those units Duke John released in his latest unit graphics pack. I think making new helmets for some of these graphics may significantly enhance them, or rather make them more appropriate for the times this mod is to be set in. I'll post what I have later.

Flags and Heraldry

I like this subject. I already made few flags for such factions as: Spain, the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden. Well, finding appropriate flag images that were in use in the timespan of this mod is not always easy, so if anyone of you have some good info on that, please contact me. Also as for the flags I already made I have some doubts, as different sources give slightly different information, or because that flags in some of the countries changed so many times during the period that it's hard for me to decide which one to choose.

Ideas?

Quote[/b] ]( I used renamed Chapter House for now - that's
why vanilla 'high and late' don't appear in selection panel for
now).

- I don't actually think we should care for vanilla game here. The mod requires too many changes to be able to play vanilla game on the same installation of the game.

Quote[/b] ]I added another topic 'XVI-XVII research'-factions, titles, provinces, trade goods and so on.

- I think I have something I could post there.

- - - - -

I was also thinking about some of the unit names. Do we really need to have so many units named in a way faction name + unit type. Some more local names would be better I think. I mean naming units for a single faction in a way: faction infantry, faction cavalry, faction arquebusiers etc. is not too motivating. The way I see units naming, I think original national names would be the best.

And additionally I want to raise an issue of common culture-specific units. Will there be any generic units? I think there should be at least few of them, especially that there will be homelands for all faction-specific units.

Regards,
EC

Eastside Character

05-23-2004, 21:34

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 23 2004,15:11)]When exactly does the Age of exploration period start? Because Finland was under Swedish rules already in the 13th century, or most of it anyway.
I believe it's 1492, and the maps are not final versions but just ideas, or sketches, and therefore are open for discussion. I believe not only this one thing is wrong...

Regards,
EC

Trax

05-23-2004, 21:59

What year does the second era begin? Livonia shouldn´t be Russian anyhow.
Also I see that Cyprus belongs to the Ottomans already, Venetians lost it 1571, I think.

SwordsMaster

05-23-2004, 22:15

I think we should keep some generic pike-arquebus-light cavs-heavy cavs, just to be available to all. I think the best suited for this are german infantry types, because all europe in the period used german mercenaries.Just a thought tho...

I believe most of the units should be region dependent rather than faction dependent, except VERY specific ones.

@EC, Do You need spanish/HRE imperial flags? A might get a few.But you can only have 1 flag per faction, isnt that true? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Anyway.I´ll type a large post with spanish kings for the period, and some generic spanish names for princesses tomorrow.

About units again.I can translate the spanish unit names into spanish language, but not much more than that.(I guess everyone called pikemen to the pikemen).I could also do that for italian units.

Eastside Character

05-23-2004, 22:15

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,15:59)]What year does the second era begin? Livonia shouldn´t be Russian anyhow.

Code Sample SetStartDate:: 1480
SetGameEndDate:: 1700
SetPeriod:: EARLY
SetEarlyPeriodStartDate:: 1480
SetHighPeriodStartDate:: 1572
SetLatePeriodStartDate:: 1648
[/QUOTE]

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-23-2004, 22:36

Just thought that Portugal should be divided in at least 2-3 provs.The reason is that it was a powerful country, and needs some more cash to backup that, so if it only receives money from one prov that will leave it rather poor.(Actually Portugal was richer than Spain)

BTW, the currency of the mod should be changed to doblon instead of florin.Just for some more accuracy.

Regards.

S.Master

Trax

05-23-2004, 22:45

Isn´t it possible to just make the province Portugal richer?

Eastside Character

05-23-2004, 23:02

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,16:45)]Isn´t it possible to just make the province Portugal richer?
Yeah, I think it's a good idea, but it should be at least four digit number. Also I think the Portugese should start campaign with some few ships and shipbuilding facilities, and be a kind of trader-naval expansionist faction with rich homeland and strong army.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-23-2004, 23:24

Well, actually they didnt have a strong army, but a really outstanding navy, but to have portugal with more income than Spain with just one prov, even fully upgraded is still too much I think.

Earl of Sandwich

05-24-2004, 04:16

nice work so far, with the screen shots and all. If you'd like some help, I can do all the names that are needed (Portuguese, Swedish, Dutch, Crimean, Ukrainian, etc.)

Hetman

05-24-2004, 08:48

Quote[/b] (Trax @ May 23 2004,15:59)]What year does the second era begin? Livonia shouldn´t be Russian anyhow.
Also I see that Cyprus belongs to the Ottomans already, Venetians lost it 1571, I think.
It starts in 1572. At that time most of Livonia was occupied
by Russian army, I believe.
And Cyprus was captured in 1571-72.

Regards Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-24-2004, 08:49

DATKA

I think it is possible to add Georgia as a playable faction in all periods.
Your units proposals are quite good, have to ask You several questions.

1.
Georgian riflemen - what kind of firearm were they using, arquebus or a musket ( and how fast were they shooting).

2. Cavalry.
Did they use shields or armour, armoured steeds maybe ?

3.
Which ones were disciplined or elite ?

4.
Could You send me some info useful for units' descriptions, building requirements and so on.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-24-2004, 09:14

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 23 2004,16:36)]Just thought that Portugal should be divided in at least 2-3 provs.

S.Master
This means map changes. I'm going to use WesW's new map ( Portugal is divided into two provinces), as soon as possible.
But in future our own XVI mod map will be necessary - should be different to the Med Mod's map.

For now I'm going to make Portugal much richer, but in one province only, unfortunatelly.

Regards Cegorach

Hetman

05-24-2004, 09:18

Quote[/b] (wilpuri @ May 23 2004,15:11)]When exactly does the Age of exploration period start? Because Finland was under Swedish rules already in the 13th century, or most of it anyway.
I used Euroatlas for details. Of course You know Finland's history better so the province will be granted to Sweden, I think.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Hetman

05-24-2004, 09:23

About flags.

For now I used some from BKB's mod ( Hospitallier Knights, Portugal) and from the NTW ( Spain - white with red, burgundian cross).

EC

Your Swedish flag for Fury of the... mod is much better for the mod.

BTW If You can please send me the info_pics You've made + the all You think is useful.

Cegorach@wp.pl

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

SwordsMaster

05-24-2004, 11:58

I found some more useful stuff at this page (http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Campground/8551/)

another page about Landsknechts with lots of imageshere (http://www.st-max.org/todesengel_costuming.htm)

another page on history just for additional info here (http://www.don-juan.org/)

Another page (http://www.arqnet.pt/exercito/orginfant.html)with info about the portugese army from 1640 to 1707 (in portuguese)

for anyone that understands french here (http://ao1617.0catch.com/europe/contenu.html) you have another page about european armies 1550-1650
there might be some images, I couldnt dig in in detail.Theres some good info about how musketeers and arquebusiers acually fired.

About Portugal, I think the ideal would be 3 provs, but 2 is still better than 1.

Reagards.
SM.

octavian

05-24-2004, 17:09

wow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/jawdrop.gif wow
those screens look very nice

SwordsMaster

05-24-2004, 17:41

In the first period, Spain didnt even exist yet.It was Castile, Aragon and Navarre, but not Spain til 1490s officially (actually until queen Isabel died in 1504).

So that isnt accurate.

second thought:

The units for that first period should be more like the late MTW than the ones I proposed for Spain. (Rodeleros and Landsknechts could be included), but all the rest shouldnt be available til 1520 approx.

Hetman

05-25-2004, 08:42

Yesterday I visited my local library and I must confess I was really suprised what kind of sources I was able to get ( I was lucky).
I borrowed three books ( well four, but one is useful only for NTW forum) concerning Zaporozhian Cossacks ( in detail), Lisowczyk mercenaries ( again in detail) and finally a real precious - an extensive source about Tatars in Polish armies ( From Lithuanian units in the XIVth century to September 1939).

The first results are two more cavalry units useful for eastern factions as regional units.

First.

Czeremis Cavalry - all periods

for Poland, Ottomans ( Turkey), Cossacks, Russia and Georgia ( not for Crimean Tatars);

in Volhynia, Kiev and Volga-Bulgaria;

fast ( 12/24/26), very strong charge ( 6), attack 3, bonus attacking cavalry +1, defense 2, armour ( chainmail, shield included) 3, good morale 4, disciplined;

armed with lance, sabre, bow and shield, wearing chainmail armour;

Description ( not ready for the game yet)
Czeremis were muslim nomads who lived in eastern steppes
( Volga-Bulgaria). Their hated enemy were Kazan Horde Tatars.
Because of them Czeremis ( Cheremis) had to migrate to Poland-Lithuania. They were soon famous as very good horsemen and ruthless enemies of Crimean Tatars.

Second.

Czerkies ( Cherkesses) - tribesmen from nothern Caucasus ( Georgia and
Khazar in the MTW) available in all periods.

for Poland, Russia, Cossacks and Georgia;

in Kiev, Lithuania, Khazar and Georgia;

very fast ( as Tatars) light cavalry, armed with sabre and spear, wearing chinmail armour ( probably they were using bows, but I'm not sure about it).
Stats in the future.

Info - they created first Petryhorcy cavalry units in Polish-Lithuanian armies ( Russian term is Pertryhorcy)and formed several light cavalry units in Polish armies.

Remember we can add about 100 units to the current unit list ( page 7 of this thread) and the ones above seem to be quite useful for several factions.

BTW
Zaporozhian Cossacks relied on infantry much more than on cavalry.
It was the infantry which was 'the backbone' of the army. Only during the rebellion in 1648 first good quality cavalry units were formed.
Before that the Cossacks were very good infantry soldiers and pirates
(Black Sea, ask Ottomans), but rather poor horsemen ( still better than many horsemen in Western Europe).

regards Hetman/Cegorach http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Hetman

05-25-2004, 08:46

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 24 2004,11:41)]In the first period, Spain didnt even exist yet.It was Castile, Aragon and Navarre, but not Spain til 1490s officially (actually until queen Isabel died in 1504).

So that isnt accurate.

second thought:

The units for that first period should be more like the late MTW than the ones I proposed for Spain. (Rodeleros and Landsknechts could be included), but all the rest shouldnt be available til 1520 approx.
Exactly like protestant religion and fully unified Polish-Lithuanian state for example, but it's impossible to be so accurate.

Second thing arquebusiers and other 'modern' units will be available after several structures will be build i.e. not from the beginning.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

SwordsMaster

05-25-2004, 13:42

Ok, new stuff here.

Quote[/b] ]During the XV century, Spanish Catholic armies (from Castilla and From
Aragon) were medieval armies. They were separated in different branch:
The king household made of noblemen paid directly by the king and it was
composed of Heavy Lance (Men at Arms) and Light Lance called in Spanish
lanza jinete. Their numbers fluctuated, following the political situation in
Spain, but during the war of Granada in late XV century, Fernando de Aragon
had some 800 - 900 horsemen. The king also uses to give some domain or
castle to noblemen in exchange of a number of soldiers a classical feudal
system.
High noblemen would have their proper household and would raise foots
soldiers as well.
Because most of the wars in Spain during the XV century were against the
Muslin states of the peninsula, on the catholic side you would find a lot of
religious orders providing knights and foots soldiers for a campaign. At
last cities council were obliged to raise soldiers for the king at their own
expense. Most of these troops were raised for a campaign and would be
disbanded at the end of the year.

Then this about cavalry uniforms:

Quote[/b] ]In Spanish service, cavalry did not have organic uniform even if yelloish
colour were used, normally they used a red slash or red plume to distinguish
themselves from the others.

This one about Royal guards:

Quote[/b] ]Well in time of Carlos V (Charles V) the royal guard had 3 companies of horses: the
cien Continuos, a company of Men at Arms armed with a heavy lance, sword and
a complete armour, the Estradiotes, a company of light cavalry armed with a
light lance and sword and a company of Archeros de Borgoña, armed with
lance, sword and a light armour. The foot companies of guardia du corps were
armed with halberd, sword and harquebus. Later the armament follow the
trend of the fashion with the introduction of pistols and musket, but the
halberd was always maintained in the foot companies

Hope it is useful.

PS.@Hetman: Ok, agreed about the Spanish kingdoms...

SwordsMaster

05-26-2004, 14:08

BTW, Hetman, I just read that thread in the Alchemist Lab about the Hedges MTWEditor v2. I thought You might find it useful.
try this link (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=18422)

Regards.

Datka

05-26-2004, 22:11

Hetman

Quote[/b] ]I think it is possible to add Georgia as a playable faction in all periods.
Your units proposals are quite good, have to ask You several questions.
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Quote[/b] ]Georgian riflemen - what kind of firearm were they using, arquebus or a musket ( and how fast were they shooting).
Well rifles appeared in Georgia very late. It was because of absolute isolation from Europe, caused by the Ottomans. Thats why I say theme should be no riflemen in Early. Only in the XVI century they appeared in Georgia. Few were made here by separate craftsmen, and some were imported from Europe (through the Crimea). By the end of XVI century only about 4-5% of Geogian warriors were armed with rifles. In XVII century their number rose a bit, but still they were few. I cant tell you exactly wether these were arquebuses or muskets. I guess they were the same that were in Europe in the corresponding periods.

Quote[/b] ]2. Cavalry.
Did they use shields or armour, armoured steeds maybe ?

Yes they should have shields and armour, not very heavy though.
Horses were not armoured.

Quote[/b] ]3.
Which ones were disciplined or elite ?
Elite:
Elite Mkhedrebi
Swordsmen Mkhedrebi
Spearmen Mkhedrebi
Aragvian Warriors

Disciplined:
Elite Mkhedrebi

Quote[/b] ]4.
Could You send me some info useful for units' descriptions, building requirements and so on.

Well one will hardly find any such info in Internet, in English especially http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . I use the books. Georgian ones. So I can't send you a direct info, I'll have to work on it myself :). I can write the descriptions.
About building requirements - I guess new buildings will be in this Mod. So I must know their system (tree) to define the requirements.

And tell me all the other info u need. I guess I will be able to provide u with most of what is required for the adding of a faction. The only problem are the pictures. I cant find them, I hope u can do without them...

Eastside Character

05-27-2004, 00:01

Uptade - flags (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/xviflagsxvii.html)

Regards,
EC

Hetman

05-27-2004, 10:15

Quote[/b] (Eastside Character @ May 26 2004,18:01)]Uptade - flags (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/xviflagsxvii.html)

Regards,
EC
Very good, very good indeed EC.
BTW - I've sent Your screens to POlish Total War forum. I expect some help from the local members.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Eastside Character

05-27-2004, 12:12

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ May 27 2004,04:15)]BTW - I've sent Your screens to POlish Total War forum. I expect some help from the local members.

Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Yes, I've noticed that - I track links to my pages.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-27-2004, 13:05

EC, cant get to see the flags.It says something about The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer .

Eastside Character

05-27-2004, 14:54

Quote[/b] (SwordsMaster @ May 27 2004,07:05)]EC, cant get to see the flags.It says something about The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer .
Just try again later. It's something with that geocities server the site's on, but it should be only a temporary situation - Now I checked and it's OK.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster

05-27-2004, 16:29

Just got to see them, then clicked again and was back to the error screen...

Anyway they look great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

If the genoese is the red croos, the english is gonna be the lion?

Hetman

05-31-2004, 09:40

Please post translated names of the units from page nr. 7
i.e. in Russian, Swedish and so on ( not Polish, not necessary).

Regards Cegorach/Hetman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Ironside

05-31-2004, 18:00

Well since Hetman asked I will try to do my best for units.

First some all around info.

Sweden had two military reforms during this time, one at around 1530-1540 when the inf was formed in fänikor (ä = ae i think) and the cav in (rytteri)fanor.
Later, around 1620-1630, Sweden had a reform that changed the fänikors and fanor into regimenten. These regimenten was often taken from local regions and were named therafter.

Muskets didn't become standard equipment until late 1500 so less muskets in early.

Sweden was weak until around 1620-1630 and afterwards they were very strong, so it should be showed in troop types. This is especially noticed in the cav. The cav continues to be slower than the polish cav for example, but more stamina (but that cant get implemented)

Ok to some units (had problem finding something for early)

Swedish militia (early)

Unlike the rest of the continent did the Swedish peasants succeding in defending thier privilegies and maintained a relativly strong position. One of the main reasons for this were their military strength. Stronger then their continental counterpart these men can even defeat more professional armies under a good general. Armed with axes, not even the heaviest troops is safe.

Possibly multiple units of Swedish militia

Dalkarlar (early)

The men from Dalarnarna was famous for thier combat-abilities and helped more than one king in times of need. They are the elite in peasant uprisings, but their lack of training and equipment is hampering them.
Probably axes for these.

Svennar (early)

Because only the king could give people the rank of riddare (knights) there was a lack of knights during the Danish wars, when Sweden officially lacked a king. Those who had proven themself worthy of knighthood was then called Svennar. This is the core in any Swedish army and are well-trained and well-equiped.
Unknown weapon, possibly cav too.

Cav types

Dragoons (hard to implement right in this game, should be light cav perhaps? It was that later)
Lancers
Curasiers
(One- two pistols then shook, can the AI handle this? = 2 ammo extremly short reload time then charging without ammo).

Regiments
Falling order of inportance (except adelsfanan, special kind of unit)
* = existed before as a fana (date when it first was formed)
Adelsfanan (1571) (Only nobles here)
Upplands ryttare (1626)* 1667 renamed to Livregementet till häst. Best cav.
Västgöta kavalleriregimente (1628)*
Åbo och Björneborgs läns kavalleriregemente (1632)* Finnish cav 1721 renamed to Livdragonregementet if prefered as a name.
Småland ryttare (1628)*
Nylands och Tavastehus läns kavalleriregemente (1632) Finnish cav
Östgöta kavalleriregemente (1636)*
Viborgs läns kavalleriregemente (1632)
Skånska kavalleriregementet (1658)

inf.

Pikes 54 and musket 72 was the standard size.
Possibly a sniper unit, need to check out some info

Drabanterna (early, high) Elite unit (best of the best), the kings bodyguard. Replaced in late with
Kungliga Maj:ts garde och livregemente.

Regiments
Falling order of importance
* = existed as a fänika before
Only the top 7 of 20.
Upplands regimente (1626)*
Skaraborgs regimente (1624)*
Åboläns infanteriregemente (unable to find date but around 1620-1630) *Existed before as Finska storregimentet Finnish
Södermanlands regemente (1627)*
Kronobergs regemente (1623)*
Björneborgs regemente (same as Åboläns)
Dalregimentet (1624)*
Most units was Indelta (called that from 1694) = conscripted.

The problem is that most units used combined arms so it's hard to name something, without calling it Swedish muskets or something boring like that.