Two Crowns mod: 1403-1500

[ShadesWolf]

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_twocrowns.gif
A modification for Medieval: Total War - Viking Invasion

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_features.gif

The Two Crowns mod will have the following features:
- Historical armylists
- New unitgraphics
- New campaignmap focusing on Western Europe

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_progress.gif
I use the following code:
X: not done yet and not under attention
O: not done but is progressing
V: done

V Step 1: Setup

V: Timeperiod
The mod starts at the year 1415 and ends before 1500.

V: Factions
The mod will include the following factions:

Playable factions
The French
The English

Rebels
The Swiss
The Scots

Factions that act as civil war
The Burgundians
The Yorkists

Disabled Factions
The Milanese Citystate (this name should be edited)
Holy Roman Empire (may become rebel)

All the above factions will be playable in Multi-Player.


O Step 2: Armylists

O: English

X: French

O: Burgundians

O: Swiss

X: Scots

X: Milanese

O: Germans

O: Yorkists


X Step 3: Tactical part

X Step 3a: Unitgraphics

X: BIF Allocation table
Allocating BIF slots to the units.

X: Creation of unitgraphics


X Step 3b: Unitstats

X: Classifying units
Deciding on how units should interact; which unit wins vs this unit but loses vs that unit.

X: Unit stats


X Step 3c: Factions

X: Coat of Arms
Faction shields and flags.

O Step 4: Strategic part

O Step 4a: Campaignmap

O: MapTex

O: Provincelist

X: LukUp
Processed by LMM.

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_armylists.gif

English Henry V
1. Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Retinue Billmen
4. Retinue Longbows
5. Shire Billmen
6. Shire Longbows

7. Mounted Men-at-Arms
9. Prickers

10. Field Cannons (Culverins)

11. Mercenary Pikemen
12. Mercenary Handgunners
13. Scottish Mercenaries
14. Kern/Bonnachts

Yorkists
1. Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Retinue Billmen
4. Retinue Longbows
5. Shire Billmen
6. Shire Longbows

7. Mounted Men-at-Arms
9. Prickers

10. Field Cannons (Culverins)

11. Mercenary Pikemen
12. Mercenary Handgunners
13. Flemish Pikemen

The exclusion of Scottish and Irish troops is because the Yorkists mainly got their allies from the continent.

Germans
1. Dismounted Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Pikemen

4. Handgunners
6. Crossbowmen

6. Knights
7. Mounted Men-at-Arms
8. Mounted Crossbowmen

9. Field Cannons (Culverins)

10. Swiss Mercenary Pikemen
11. Swiss Mercenary Halberdiers
12. Flemish Pikemen

Burgundy

1. Mounted Men-at-Arms
2. Ecuyers, armoured cavalry with spear
3. Coustilliers, fast cavalry
4. Mounted Crosbowmen

5. Men-at-Arms
6. Voulgiers
7. Pikemen
8. Crossbows
9. Handgunners
10. Mercenary Longbows
11. Mercenary Pikemen

12. Bombard
13. Culverin
14. Field Cannons

Swiss

1. Swiss Armoured Pikemen
2. Swiss Pikemen
3. Swiss Armoured Halberdiers
4. Swiss Halberdiers
5. Crossbows
6. Mounted Crossbows
7. Handgunners
8. Culverin

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_downloads.gif
There are at the moment no downloads available of the Two Crowns mod. However as an apetizer you can download the Wars of the Roses beta here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=16216;st=0).

Two Crowns Team
- ShadesWolf
- Duke John

[Duke John]

French Royal Knights
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_french_royal.gif

English Royal Knights
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_english_royal.gif

Burgundian Men-at-Arms
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_burgundian_maa.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Sounds like a good idea DJ

But we still need a campaign map, and somebody to do the Automatic LukMap & Script creator stuff..



The problem of the WotR is that it only happened because the HYW was lost and lots of English soldiers came home and the current King wasn't succesfull at anything. There was unrest. If the HYW was won then there would be no WotR which is very likely in a SP campaign and gives us problems. As a solution to this, if we added Scotland, then the English player would need to keep a large part of his army in England to protect against an invasion from the North. Due to the fact of Larger numbers in the French armies we could build into the game a hard challenge for the English player... Hense very difficult to win.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]As a solution to this, if we added Scotland, then the English player would need to keep a large part of his army in England to protect against an invasion from the North. Due to the fact of Larger numbers in the French armies we could build into the game a hard challenge for the English player... Hense very difficult to win.

Good idea The French are supposed to win, so that will be the easy faction. The English are supposed to lose and also have a civil war which will be the hard faction.

Scotland
What about if in the Scottisch provinces you can only train Scottish units. Instead of making it a playable faction (not major or minor) we make it rebel with the Scottish regions having a high rebellion rate.
If we do make the faction minor or major then we lose the ability to make the region very stubborn in accepting a new government as the rebels will also go against minor factions.
Combine this and we have typical Scottish armies that strongly rebel against the English surpressors.

Time period
Do you agree on the 1416-1500 period?

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Time period
Do you agree on the 1416-1500 period?


I would prefer a 1415 start, as this would enable the Siege of Harfleur and Agincourt. So can we agree 1415 - 1500.


Quote[/b] ]Scotland


This is an excellent idea, I really like this one, it will make it also impossible for England to capture and then hold.




Quote[/b] ]Campaign map


If you can make the LMM conversion that don't worry about the campmap. I can do it in the same style as the official ones. I did one for my Ancient mod and it turned out very well. Could you me an example of which part of Europe you were thinking of. Sorry DJ you have lost me on this one.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]If you can make the LMM conversion that don't worry about the campmap. Should be:

If you can make the LMM conversion then don't worry about the campmap. I can make the texture (MAPTEX.TGA) But I do need to know which part of Europe will be displayed.

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]But I do need to know which part of Europe will be displayed.
I was only thinking of the area around France and England. So the West I guess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


http://www.shadesmtw.com/newmap.jpg

[ShadesWolf]

I have a lot of information for this period (mainly 100 years war) so any stuff we can use, Im willing to share.

I have the following books on the subject ( Osprey)

Orleans 1429
Agincourt 1415
HenryV and the Conquest of france 1416-1453
The armies of Agincourt
Armies of Medieval burgundy 1364-1477
French armies of the Hundred years war
Medieval european Armies
English longbowman 1330-1515

I also have on order...

the Swiss at war 1300 - 1500
War of the roses 1455 - 1485

[ShadesWolf]

We could call this Two Thrones (based on the game by Paradox)

http://www.paradoxplaza.com/images/themes/TwoThrones/header-1.gif

[Duke John]

I have from the Osprey Books:
- The Swiss at war 1300-1500
- German Medieval Armies 1300-1500
- Armies of Medieval Burgundy
- French Armies
- Wars of the Roses
- Bosworth
- Tewkesbury
- Towton
So I think we've got all the information we need. Do you have a scanner so that I can see how the units look like in your books? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif

Title of the mod
Not so sure about The Two Crowns. I also want the Burgundians and Swiss take a prominent place.

[ShadesWolf]

For Burgundy - Armagnacs V Burgundians (French Civil war)

The only problem would be the Swiss, which we would need to do alot more work on the campaign map to make more provinces to cover them...

BTW yes I do have a scanner, so thats no problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Duke John]

What if we make the Burgundians also leaderless. So the resurgence of that faction starts the French Civil War. We just have to test out if we can influence where it resurfaces.

And we make the Swiss also rebels. This makes them less expansionist (as they should be). But we can give the Rebels loads of money which avoids easy picking of rebel lands.

And then we're back to the Two Crowns mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin.gif
So we really dive into the English and French with lots of little twists (Swiss, Scots as stubborn rebels and the resurfacing Yorkists and Burgundians as Civil Wars).

I am starting to like this alot We'll show CA what the game could have been http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-evilgrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]What if we make the Burgundians also leaderless. So the resurgence of that faction starts the French Civil War. We just have to test out if we can influence where it resurfaces.


Ok two thoughts

- If we make the main Burgundian province, the [field] Burgundy then they might re-appear there.
- If we had two startup files one could be tailored towards MP and the other SP. In the MP we could also include Scots, Swiss, Burgundian as playable factions
In the SP they would we rebels or Minor.

This way we get the best of both worlds.

[Duke John]

Yes, I agree on the SP, MP startup files.


Quote[/b] ]If we make the main Burgundian province, the [field] Burgundy then they might re-appear there.

If you are sure about this then I am very happy I think we then have the big things pretty much settled.

Could you start working on armylists? I was thinking about 10 units at the max for each faction. We can keep the WotR armylist for the English, although we might want new graphics so that English units have the Cross of St. George. Perhaps only a few. I will certainly give the Knigthly units a new tabard with gold lions on red.
Each unit will get its own BIF since I render the weapons/shields together with the unit.

Techtree
What is your opinion on the techtree? Do you want eleborate ones, or simple ones (which are IMO more realistic). I had the next idea in mind for my WotR mod:

Castles
There is only 1 real castle type: Castle2. This will greatly speed up mapmaking as we only need 1 castlemap for each province. Let’s say that Paris has a big castle. Doing this then it will always have a big castle independent of techtree level.

Then there is a lesser castle type: Damaged Castle (Castle1). This one is not buildable. So when does it appear? If a castle degrades during an assault, it gets degraded to damaged castle. We give Castle2 1 year buildtime so it will be quickly repaired.

We give all units and buildings the Damaged Castle as prerequisite. So the provinces aren’t that much (or more like not all) degraded when it switches sides.

Upgrades
I follow CBR’s opinion that unit balance is best without upgrades. So I would suggest that we remove all upgrade buildings and that if you want a better unit you train the better version instead of upgrading the units. Which is historically much more accurate.

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Techtree
What is your opinion on the techtree? Do you want eleborate ones, or simple ones (which are IMO more realistic). I had the next idea in mind for my WotR mod:


Simple ones, much easiers to handle.






Quote[/b] ]Castles
There is only 1 real castle type: Castle2. This will greatly speed up mapmaking as we only need 1 castlemap for each province. Let’s say that Paris has a big castle. Doing this then it will always have a big castle independent of techtree level.

Then there is a lesser castle type: Damaged Castle (Castle1). This one is not buildable. So when does it appear? If a castle degrades during an assault, it gets degraded to damaged castle. We give Castle2 1 year buildtime so it will be quickly repaired.

We give all units and buildings the Damaged Castle as prerequisite. So the provinces aren’t that much (or more like not all) degraded when it switches sides.


Great idea, this makes castles far easier to produce, and will be far much more fun.






Quote[/b] ]Upgrades


Totally agree, we dont need them.






Quote[/b] ]Could you start working on armylists? I was thinking about 10 units at the max for each faction.

NP can start later, We need to decide on all the factions, hows about:

1. Lancastrians (Henry V) (SP & MP)
2. Swiss ( MP)
3. HRE ( MP)
4. France (SP & MP)
5. Milan ( MP)
6. Another Italian citystate... ( MP)
7. Burgundy (SP & MP)
8. And the Yorkists (SP & MP)
9. Scotland (MP)
10.Papacy

[Duke John]

You know what they say: great minds think alike http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

So we agree on the most important concepts except for the damned Papacy, why? I don't want warnings about invading France Let's just use FN_09 till FN_18 for factions and avoid all hard-coded misery.

[ShadesWolf]

OK NP but I will still want to have one of the campaign provinces as none attackable to represent the home of the Pope in southern france.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]OK NP but I will still want to have one of the campaign provinces as none attackable to represent the home of the Pope in southern france.
Could me provide me with the historical background as to why you want this? Also do you want the Hardcoded Pope or a faction that is named Pope?

[ShadesWolf]

Sorry DJ you are right, the Pope had left Avignon in 1377 and returned back to Rome.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Sorry DJ you are right
This is the first time that I was right when I was just asking a question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif
I wasn't trying to correct you I only wanted to know why you wanted the Pope in Southern France. So the Pope is out?

[ShadesWolf]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]So the Pope is out? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Do you think you could do something with that map ?

[ShadesWolf]

If it is ok by you, I will go through and make a list of the Provinces that should be included for the Mainland part of the map.

Shall we keep the current VI Britain map, or would you prefer to create a new one ?

[Duke John]

Just start from scratch. As an example of what I am capable of, here's my map I made for my Ancient mod, it worked 100% in VI:
http://chronicles.metw.net/files/map_ancient_1.jpg
And scale 1:1
http://chronicles.metw.net/files/map_ancient_2.jpg

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif Excellent, I will start with detailing what provinces I want in mainland Europe, and I will also start working on units for factions. Starting with burgundy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[CBR]

Hm interesting. Good luck guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

Will this still be an add-on or do you have to make so many new units that you run out of custom folders?


CBR

[Duke John]

This mod will be crammed with new unitgraphics for all the included factions. We will first focus on the tactical part, releasing factions as we go, and then move on to the strategic part.

CBR
If you like if you are always welcome to lend us a help balancing the units or providing information on units. I believe that you once made a mod that focused around Italian armies with pike and shot. Do you also have ideas on armies in the 15th century?

[CBR]

Sure I can help if you want it.

Hm 15th century armies..

Yes my Italian Wars mod was early 16th century warfare with pikes and arquebusiers as main infantry units as well as halbardiers and 2-handed swordsmen as support.

15th century is a bit more blurry and several changes of the armies during this period. But I should have armylists for all of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


CBR

[CBR]

How many units do you have now or plan to make?


CBR

[ShadesWolf]

We are looking at approx 10 ish units per faction, similar to what you see in 'War of the Roses'

Currently I am working on Burgundy, and the army makeup. Any suggestions would be greatfully received....

Currently this is what I have...

Until 1471, Burgundy’s armies were recruited from four sources: nobles and their numerous followers; the ducal guard (household troops); town militia; and foreign mercenaries. These followed the French model and were divided into:

(1) Heavy cavalry, consisting of armoured men-at-arms, mostly nobles, forming the nucleus of the army.
(2) Light cavalry, drawn from the followers that the men-at-arms were required to bring with them: mounted archers, crossbowmen and swordsmen, who task was to harass the enemy before the main engagement, and to support the men-at-arms.
(3) Infantry, which formed but a small proportion of the army, and consisted of pikemen, archers and crossbowmen. It should however be noted that what we call cavalry usually dismounted to fight and most battles in this period were ultimately battles of infantry.

The nucleus of the army was the man-at-arm, these consisted of Chevaliers (rich nobles, dukes, counts and barons, and Ecuyers (squires) minor aristocrats or bourgeous. Throughout the whole period of the Valois dukes the majority of men-at-arms came from the two Burgundies, and a lessor extent the province of Artois.

Most of the manpower and infantry were drawn from Flanders, Holland and Zeeland, and the Flemish towns were renowned for their pikemen. They are described in an account of 1471 as having a sallet, brigandine, sword and pike, or a long lance with a slender shaft and a long sharp spear-head.

Armies make-up

Flander and Artois 38%
The Burgundies 29%
Allies and mercenaries 33%

MOUNTED
Chevaliers (knights with lance)
Ecuyers (squires with spears)
Mounted crossbows
Gendarmes (miltia/town cavalry with sword)

FOOT
Goedendag clubmen (Flemish)
Flemish Pikemen
Swiss/ German halberd (mercenaries)

RANGED
Genoese crossbowmen (mercenaries)
crossbowmen
English Longbows (allies)
Handgunners

ARTILLERY
Serpentine artillery
Bombard artillery

A few more notes I found on Burgundy...

Burgundian Ordonnance is an army with a little of everything but nothing in abundance. You get regular dismounting knights, mounted superior bowmen, pikemen, psiloi... you name it, but never in numbers. Even so, with tactical skills and some eye this army is not a loser, but fairly lethal.
The first think to keep in mind is that YOU must have the initiative. You are almost certain to be outnumbered and overwhelmed. Therefore you must get the enemy befor he gets you.
The C3 of this army is excellent. You get three regular generals which also are good in the hacking thing.
The steel fist of the army are the gendarmerie: regular dismountable knights. They really rock. They are just as lethal as their irregular counterparts, and much more controllable and not liable to go berserk. About the only thing sans elephants you should avoid with these guys are irregular knights which may prove troublesome. You can dance around with these guys, and even Irr Kn should not prove too much touble - with a little help of friends.
If the gendarmerie is the steel fist, the Ordonnance archers are then the blowtorch. Reg Bw(S) is poison with a capital P. Anything not crushable with Kn can be dealt with these guys. They kill almost anything sans Ps(S). You should maximize their numbers. They are their worth of weight in gold. If you have to bargain in points, then bargain in Kn, not Bw. The key here is to use the archers in combination with the Kn. Separately both are toast: together they can handle almost anything. Irr Kn are a delight to be sucked against these guys...
Other Ordonnance infantry mostly suck. Crossbowmen are best to left at home. Ordonnance pikemen are few, but four of them make a nice block. Handgunners are few, but Ps(S) is the proper way to spell nuisance. Take all four of these. Low Countries pikemen (Reg Pk(I)) are also a worthy buy. They are excellent to be used to swell the numbers and raise the breakpoint of the army. Don't buy voulgiers - they are few, and if you need good infantry, just dismount a couple of gendarmes.
Italian knights are best to left at home, but their LH is a must. Feudal troops are a liability. Irr Kn(I) suck big time, and why waste points on Irr Bw(O) mtd while there is need for points for Reg Bw(S) ? Besides, Irr Bd(S) produce control problems due to their impetuosity.
Ordonnance artillery is fairly decent. Bombards are a good buy, and organ guns make fairly good camp guards, especially if protected by palisade. A petardier element in ambush will produce also nasty surprises...
This army is an army for a player who knows what he is doing. The keyword is co-operation. Duke Charles failed in this, and it was his undoing. Same applies to a player who tries to win on only one part of this army. It is an integre entity which requires using all parts of this army closely together: knights, archers and lights. Keep your ranks close and archers near the knights - there you go Have your knights adventuring alone and your archers facing some pike phalanx alone... goodbye. This army is a mediocrity in hands who don't know what to do, and a fine instrument for a cunning, devious and ruthless gamer. It isn't a straightforward killer like French Ordonnance, or a manouevre army like Hungarians. It has its own nature, which may require several games to notice.
But certainly this army isn't the loser it's been labeled here either

[Duke John]

Unitgraphics
I am planning to make full use of all the BIF slots. Not with all radically different models, but since the shield was rarely used I think we need to give the units a certain faction specificness. Burgundians will get a diagonall red cross, English the Cross of St. George, the Swiss small white crosses.

ShadesWolf and CBR, what do you think of rendering the faction colours? Currently works so that the purple and green is replaced by the selected faction colour. However I have big problems with this. The Burgundians have for example a blue/white livery with a red cross. But when the blue/white is replaced by red/white then it loses in my eyes alot of the historical accuracy.

Also I am thinking of rendering units with different livery colours. For example the Swiss will be mainly red/white, but the Swiss Confederacy got its soldiers from multiple districts with each its own livery colours. So we have units that are red/white but also black/yellow and black/red for example. In my eyes this only adds atmosphere and not detracts as would be the case with wrongly applied faction colours.

Burgundy
Can't we do something with Compagnie d'Ordonnance?

Burgundy had one of the largest artillery trains. Perhaps we want artillery units like in N:TW, so that we can have 3 cannons in a single unit and it can also move (slowly).

So Burgundy will focus around:
Men-at-arms
Cavalry
Pikemen
Mercenaries
Artillery

My proposed armylist is then:
1. Mounted Men-at-Arms
2. Ecuyers, armoured cavalry with spear
3. Coustilliers, fast cavalry
4. Mounted Crosbowmen

5. Men-at-Arms
6. Voulgiers
7. Pikemen
8. Crossbows
9. Handgunners
10. Mercenary Longbows
11. Mercenary Pikemen

12. Bombard
13. Culverin
14. Field Cannons

Swiss
The Swiss Confederacy is mainly about pikes and halberdiers. Commanders had problems with finding enough missile units (smaller unitsizes for the Swiss).

Armylist:
1. Swiss Armoured Pikemen
2. Swiss Pikemen
3. Swiss Armoured Halberdiers
4. Swiss Halberdiers
5. Crossbows
6. Mounted Crossbows
7. Handgunners
8. Culverin


Once we have most of the armylists I will start thinking of allocating BIFs.

Cheers, Duke John

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

If you need any help with info of the period or any beta testing i'd be glad to help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

By the way, the swiss would often employ lorraine and austrian horse for cavalry, especially at Nancy in 1477 against the Burgundians

[CBR]

I would like a few more variants of some of the units...

My armylist (Medieval Warfare ruleset) does give the option to buy different quality Voulgiers and longbows plus pavs for crossbows as well as low quality militia (armed with polearms)

It will give more choices for army selection.


Quote[/b] ]Also I am thinking of rendering units with different livery colours

Does that mean each bif you make can only be used for one faction and not as a more general units (just with different weapons/shields)?


CBR

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

The Burgundians would also have mercenary longbowmen in there armies but the majority were massacred i think in the battle of Morat or Granson( i think it was the latter) when they were pinned in with the lake and the Burgudian camp. The Swiss hardly ever took prisoners.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Does that mean each bif you make can only be used for one faction and not as a more general units (just with different weapons/shields)?
There will be general unitgraphics (mercenaries, some men-at-arms), but most units will get faction specific graphics. I do this since I really want the faction emblems on the units. If someone wants generic units, without any flavour, they can use the official BIFs. If they want historical accuray then they can use mine.


Quote[/b] ]I would like a few more variants of some of the units.
Let's first make the armylists and then we will see how much space we have left.


Quote[/b] ] The Swiss hardly ever took prisoners.
At other battles the Swiss also let the Burgundians just flee and they faced the enemy again. The artillery train was quite a few times more important to loot then run after fleeing soldiers. The Swiss had excellent soldiers but the army as a whole did had it shortcomings. Still find it kinda funny how one commander complained that his handgunners/crossbowmen left their missiles and took up a halberd.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]If you need any help with info of the period or any beta testing i'd be glad to help
Yes, we can certainly need help for both. At the moment our main goal is to finish the armylists so that I can start working on the unitgraphics.

Edit: the Progress part at page 1 has been updated with more steps.

http://chronicles.metw.net/org/medievalcheers.gif
Duke John

[Duke John]

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_armylists.gif

English
1. Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Retinue Billmen
4. Retinue Longbows
5. Shire Billmen
6. Shire Longbows

7. Mounted Men-at-Arms
9. Prickers

10. Field Cannons (Culverins)

11. Mercenary Pikemen
12. Mercenary Handgunners
13. Scottish Mercenaries
14. Kern/Bonnachts

Yorkists
1. Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Retinue Billmen
4. Retinue Longbows
5. Shire Billmen
6. Shire Longbows

7. Mounted Men-at-Arms
9. Prickers

10. Field Cannons (Culverins)

11. Mercenary Pikemen
12. Mercenary Handgunners
13. Flemish Pikemen

The exclusion of Scottish and Irish troops is because the Yorkists mainly got their allies from the continent.

Germans
1. Dismounted Knights
2. Men-at-Arms
3. Pikemen

4. Handgunners
5. Pavise Handgunners (heavier handgun)
6. Crossbowmen

7. Knights
8. Mounted Men-at-Arms
9. Mounted Crossbowmen

10. Field Cannons (Culverins)

11. Swiss Mercenary Pikemen
12. Swiss Mercenary Halberdiers
13. Flemish Pikemen

http://chronicles.metw.net/org/barrel.gif
Duke John

[NormanPain]

Pavise handgunners? So handgunners with a pavise shield right? Huh, where can I find information on this? it makes sense being that hangonnes were fairly inaccurate and slow to reload, would be nice to have something to protect you from arrows as you reload.

[ShadesWolf]

A few notes on the French....

By 1400, nobles and vassals provided the french men-at-arms. Their servants called 'coutiliers' served as light cavalry. Specified towns furnished infantry - crossbowmen and halberdiers.

After the crushing defeat at Agincourt and the civil war led to a military collapse. By 1420, Charles VII relied on Armagnac garrisons, free companies and foreigners. In the period 1418-23, more than 16,000 scots fought for him.

It was not until 1445 that charles succeeded in asserting control over the rapacious companies serving in his name. His 1445 ordinance selected permanent companies of veterans 600-strong, a total of 1,800 men-at-arms, 3600 mounted archers and 1,800 coutiliers billeted about his realm.

He also had a militia of 8,000 free archers(known as franc archers)

LIST AS FOLLOWS

Franc Archers
French Crossbows
Handgunners

Knights mounted
Men-at-arms mounted
coutiliers
Voulgiers mounted
mounted sergeants
Gendarmes


Knights on foot
Men-at-arms on foot
Voulgiers on foot
sergeants on foot

Scottish merc
Genoese Crossbows

[RabidMonkey]

Awsome I'm so glad to see this mod continuing, and hopefully no problems this time Duke John and Shadeswolf you both look like very accomplished modders. I would like to help with this mod but dont know if i have your level of ability yet, maybe i could at least do some testing for you?

A few questions:
would you think about adding the Low countries or Spanish factions. Both the french and english fought in spain during the hundred years war period.

I hope that almost all cavalry can dismount, the english certainly fought on foot and i think almost everyone else during this period did too. I guess the AI would not know to dismount though which could be an issue.

And on a slightly different note, what is your opinion on the unit sizes in MTW? Being an old Shogun veteran i love having all units base size the same. And i still haven't gotten used to the different sizes in MTW. Why do cavalry units have to be so tiny? Anyway its my little gripe and nothing to do with this mod, just interested to hear your opinions

[Duke John]

A few renderings:

Mercenary Pikemen
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_mercenary_pikemen.gif

Swiss Armoured Pikemen
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_swiss_armoured_pikemen.gif

Swiss Halberdiers
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_swiss_halberdier.gif

The Swiss will get put White Crosses on the livery.

Cheers,
Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Nice images looking good DJ. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]would you think about adding the Low countries or Spanish factions. Both the french and english fought in spain during the hundred years war period.


The period we are covering will not allow for this. In 1415 most of the low countries belonged to burgundy. This therefore means we will not be able to have Flanders, etc as individual factions.

As for the spanish question, unless Im mistaken most of the conflicts took place inthe 14th century and not the 15th.

The main Iberian conflicts took place between 1366 to 1387 and included the battle of Najera.

for more info take a look at Battle of Najera 1367 (http://www.serv-inf.deusto.es/ABAITUA/kanpetzu/primate/najera1367.htm)

[ShadesWolf]

THE SCOTS

Scottish nobles (Knights) - some of their armour may have been a little dated, and they often lacked fighting spirit

Scottish Pike
The bulk of Scots Common armies were made up of pike armed lowland soldiers, who fought in circular (schiltron) or linear formations. These were effective against enemies who threw themselves wildly at the pike-points, but were deficient against missile troops.

Highlanders
Highlanders and crofters who were ill-armed but fought with spirit. They generally filled in gaps between pike formations, or held ground to the flanks or rear of the army - if the Scottish commander could prevent them charging wildly at the start of the battle.

Archers
Archers were used in small numbers by the Scots, usually to give limited protection to pike blocks. These would fight either as skirmishers, or as a formed unit

Therefore so far we have

Mounted Knights
Light Horsemen (spears & no real armour)
Dismounted Knights
Scottish Pikes
Highlanders
archers

[Antalis::]

Highlanders sounds good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

They will need a huge broadsword http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Duke John]

Unitgraphics and missiles
I want to make two types of crossbows. Both types should always lose vs the Longbows, an exception might be pavise arbalester which might result in a tie. A regular one probably a bit faster. Crossbowmen never get a pavise. However I want to give the arbalesters a reloading animation. At the moment they are standing still quite a while and you have no idea wether they are reloading or not without hovering over them for descriptional text.

I want to achieve this by converting the arquebusier missile stats into the arbalester stat. Arbalesters will then have a reloading animation. Handgunners will get upgraded handgun projectile stats.

The advantage of making the arbalests different from the crossbows, is that crossbowmen might be a good alternative for the slow arbalest. The latter is far more powerfull but it does take a while to reload. I think pavise arbalesters should also be in less numbers then normal arbelesters.

http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/title_armylists.gif

French Ordonnance
I am looking for names that have more flavour in it than just Urban Militia and Foot Knights
What about the following:

Gendarmes d'Ordonnance
Knightly units.

Mounted Men-at-Arms
Ok, these are standard.

Men-at-Arms
...

Partisans
Militia armed with the Partisan, a pike-like weapon with a fork like end. I got from the internet though that this weapon was mainly used during 16th, 17th century. Shall we still use it?

Voulgiers d'Ordonnance
Heavily armoured halberdiers, or does the Voulge only count as armour-piercing?

Voulgiers
Militia halberdiers

Sergeants
Your idea, what do you think they should have for equipment?

Franc Archers
The French imitation of the English tradition of training Longbows by banning all sports apart from archery (includes crossbows).

Crossbows

Arbalests

Pavise Arbalests

Handgunners
Plenty of missile units for the French.

Cheers, Duke John

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Remeber that the French archers for want of a better word were shite. Good exampe of this was at the battle of guingate in 1479 against maximilian of Hapsburg when they ran off before the fighting actually started.

[NormanPain]

Before you start making highlanders do remember the kilt didnt come about till the 1700's The invention of the kilt (http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/history/material_culture/rmclean/html/trad.htm)

Hollywood simply wanted to show us a bunch of Scottish @$$ES in Braveheart. Just think of what we could have been spared if the followed history, we would have also had much cooler battle scenes...

[Angelnessuno]

eih DJ this are some link about milanese venetian and italian condottieri


http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d....~per=41 (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q4778~ser=MAA~per=41)
(you must enlarge the image)
they are a ''cavalleggeri units'' (light cavalry)
and a heavy knight

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d....~per=41 (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=P5225~ser=MAA~per=41) (you must enlarge the image)
the 3 tre black knight are milanese or venetian knight

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armiesofthefanatici/VincentTsao/condotta/


http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba169/dba169.html
http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_169_figure_1.htm

http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/se/~luv20009/CampaignUpdates.html


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

[Angelnessuno]

this a page where you can find there a typical italian armours http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery/Artifacts

[Duke John]

Thanks for the tips and research, NormanPain and Angelnessuno http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Should I give the Scottish less advanced armour, like hauberks? How can I make them Scots and not just a generic medieval unit?

Cheers, Duke John

[Highlander X]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

Some stuff on the Scots


Shakespeare’s ‘Henry V’ rightly portrays the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 as one of England’s greatest military victories. For the French it was a disaster that led to the near collapse of their kingdom. In their darkest hour the Dauphin turned to the Scots, England’s enemy, for salvation. Between 1419 and 1424, 15,000 Scots left from the River Clyde to fight in France. In 1421 at the Battle of Bauge the Scots dealt a crushing defeat to the English and slew the Duke of Clarence.

Honours and rewards were heaped upon the Scots army by the French. The Earl of Douglas was given the royal Dukedom of Touraine and the Scots army lived well off the land, much to the chagrin of the French peasantry. Their victory was short lived however; at Vernuil in 1424 a Scots army of 4,000 men was annihilated. As mercenaries they could have expected no mercy and those who were captured were dispatched on the spot. Despite their defeat, the Scots had brought France valuable breathing space and effectively saved the country from English domination.

Many Scots continued to serve in France. They aided Joan of Arc in her famous relief of Orleans and many went on to form the Garde Écossais, the fiercely loyal bodyguard of the French Kings, where they were at the very heart of French politics. Many Scots mercenaries settled in France although they continued to think of themselves as Scots. One such man was Beraud Stuart of Aubigny: a third-generation Scot immigrant, Captain of the Garde Écossais from 1493-1508, and hero of France’s Italian wars. To this day both he and other Scots heroes of the Auld Alliance are celebrated in Beraud’s home town of Aubigny-sur-Neve in an annual pageant
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history....e.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/europe/features_europe_auldalliance.shtml)

Here's a detailed desription of The Battle of Verneuil 1424
http://www.adhb30.dsl.pipex.com/100war26.htm
I think i read somewhere else another account of the battle, where it described the Lombard/Italian Archers leaving their flanking positions and attemting to raid the English baggage train, but where beat back by longbowmen and fled leaving the Franco/Scots in the lurch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

A list of desriptions of 100 Years War battles 1337 - 1453
http://www.adhb30.dsl.pipex.com/100war02.htm

Here's some pics you've probably seen DJ.
http://home.ripway.com/2004-6/123814/m279_F.JPG
http://home.ripway.com/2004-6/123814/m279_B.JPG
http://home.ripway.com/2004-6/123814/e09_F.JPG

And this site has a little blurb on Highland Armour, with sortof a Galloglass feel to it.
http://www.stoccata.org/stoccat....rticles (http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf/Pages/E6FBBAF9DCF33BC94A256B5E0027897D?OpenDocument&v:Articles)

Hope that helps, atleast the pics are cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[NormanPain]

Alot of people will whine that they dont have kilts so you might want to put the fact that they didnt wear them in the unit description. The scots were pretty good with spears and pikes(look at bannockburn for example.) and also the famous claymore was used by them which believe it or not is said to be almost perfectly balanced and handles beautifully, its even been said that the only think that betters it in that sense is a Katana...and barely...so despite its large size it was not hard to wield effectively (attack or charge bonus?) Possibly make units afraid of it as it was quite a bit of a psychological weapon as well, I mean with some nearly six feet long it is intimidating. Sorry Im getting a bit long winded here, so I must go, I hope I have helped some. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Angelnessuno]

they are of hight quality you must enlarge all the images they are amazing
-italian condottiere
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=90-901
-italian man-at-arm
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=90-006


-italian knight
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=54-037

-italian alabardier
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=54-036

-savoy standar bear
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=54-510

-italian infantry
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=75-004

-venetian infantry
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=75-008

-italian knight
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=le-0154
-naepolitan archibuiser
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_it.asp?code=90-002

[Angelnessuno]

thanks a lot DJ

-german Landsquenecht
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=150-001

-french knight
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=54-005

-swiss captain

http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=54-019
-german knight

-english standarbear
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=54-171

-Agincourt battle, 1415
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=54-801
-german infantry
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=75-002
-german knight
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=90-009
-italian pavise arbalester
http://www.pegasomodels.com/details_en.asp?code=90-027
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Angelnessuno]

-venetianm general ,italian stradiotti,milan ,sienese ecc
http://www.histomin.com/linemcf/pgmcfren.htm
http://www.histomin.com/lineemi/emimed/pgemimedvig.htm

(italian knight)
http://users.erols.com/sabatinr/italiano.jpg

-medieval (general)

http://www.histomin.com/lineevd/pgevdmed.htm
http://www.histomin.com/lineemi/emimed/pgemimedfoot.htm
http://www.histomin.com/lineand/andmed/pgandmedfoot.htm
http://www.histomin.com/lineand/andmed/pgandmed90.htm
-medieval knight
http://www.histomin.com/lineemi/emimed/pgemimedmtd.htm

-Spanish
http://www.ttfxmedia.com/beneito/
http://www.histomin.com/lineand/andren/pgandren.htm#54foot
http://www.histomin.com/lineevd/pgevdren.htm

-GERMAN LANDSKNECHT
http://www.histomin.com/lineagi/agiren/pgagiren.htm

-landsknecht and swiss and spanish
http://www.histomin.com/lineelt/pgeltren.htm

[ShadesWolf]

IMAGES http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman5.htm

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/themes/t_1/st_1_02/a102_002.htm

Example
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i2_0046.jpg



HYW Final Phase (1422-1453) (http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/hyw_fp.htm)

Website with some good images of the period
Example
http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/orlen3ss.jpg

http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articulos/paco/agincourt/agincourt.htm
Example
http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articulos/paco/agincourt/agincourt5_1.jpg

A Few random images

http://www.englishbox.com/A2%20Literature/war%20pics/agincourt2.jpg

http://personal.centenary.edu/~chauser/images/agincourt.jpg


MAPS AND STUFF
- North Italy up to Burgundy

http://www.friesian.com/lorraine.htm
Example
http://www.friesian.com/images/maps/burgund2.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Also

now I have a map to work on I will start to decide what provinces to include.

[ShadesWolf]

A few more questions, as they come I will post them.....

QUESTION 1.

Ireland ?

Do we need Ireland?
I dont think it played any part in the war of the roses or the hundred years war.

If we lose it we would gain an extra province to use, either that or its just a shape on the map, or feel and accuracy.

What do you all think.

I appreciate they contributed hobilars and Bon's but if we are not having them in the mod do we need Ireland ?

[Duke John]

I think we can drop Ireland, but...
Quote[/b] ]If we lose it we would gain an extra province to use
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif are you planning to use all 99 provinces?

[Duke John]

Shall we contact one of the members who play Crusader Kings and ask them to make some screenshots of the European map. We will then have very quickly loads of historical provinces. I guess froggy can do that as payment for her Geisha smilies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geishatongue.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]are you planning to use all 99 provinces?
With a large european map then I see no reason not to use all 99 provinces. It also depends on what we are attempting to achieve with this, if we want a fairly historically mod then why not. It would be nice to see with a number of armies what could be achieved in 85 years....

At the moment I have 23 allocated to the UK - they are as follows - please keep in mind this is first pass....

scotland (3)
- Lowlands (The home of the douglas)
- Mid lands (good name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
- high lands

Wales (2)
- North Wales
- South wales

England (18)
- Cumberland
- Northumberland
- Lancaster
- York
- chester
- Staffs & Shropshire
- hereford & Worc
- Somerset
- Cornwall & Devon
- Dorset & Hampshire
- sussex & Kent
- Wilt & Berk shires
- London
- east anglia
- Oxford
- Cambridge
- Derby & Notts
- Lincoln

European mainland (44 So far)
- Brest
- Nantes
- Normandy
- Anjou
- Poitou
- Tournai
- Bourdeaux
- Limousin
- Guyenne
- Armangnac
- Toulouse
- Auvergne
- Nimes
- Avignon
- bourbonnais
- Orleans
- Maine
- Rouen
- Paris
- nivernats
- Burgunddy
- Lyonnais
- Dauphine
- Provence
- Savoy
- Turin
- Bern
- Zurich
- Grisons
- Milan
- Veniza
- Parma
- Verona
- Genoa
- Lorraine
- champagne
- Mainaut
- Calais
- Picardy
- Flanders
- Zeeland & Holland
- Brabant (spelling corrected)
- Luxembourg

This would still leave us with another 30 ish provinces to play with, which we could us some on





#######
As with regard to Crusader kings, yes that would be ok, But I also have a game by Paradox, this is called Two Thrones. It cover 1337 to 1490.

Feature include
- Choose between several large nations like england, France and burgundy and fight the hundred years war, or control one of the two factions in the war of the roses.

I think this would be a good start for historicall province names.........

[Duke John]

Zeeland will be too small. I think Holland needs Zeeland to be big enough to contain armies and a castle. The map isn't that big.

Braddant should be Brabant. Guess which province Duke John (or more like Duke Jan) ruled?

The rest looks good as far as I can see.

[ShadesWolf]

Looking at the map Flanders, Zeeland and Holland are all the same size, So we could make Flanders largers and combine Zeeland and Holland, making their total area smaller...

BTW did you get the email...

[NormanPain]

If this mod includes 100 years war...shouldn't it start in 1337 rather then 1415? Or is this meant more to represent the later years of the war when the french finally started figuring out it was smarter to go around the longbowmen rather then straight at them?

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]If this mod includes 100 years war...shouldn't it start in 1337 rather then 1415? Or is this meant more to represent the later years of the war when the french finally started figuring out it was smarter to go around the longbowmen rather then straight at them?


It is meant to deal with the end of the hundred years war and the events that happened after.

We do not have enough BIF folders to cover the earlier part of the conflict, the units will be tailored to cover the later conflict.

You would also need to take into account the factions of
Flanders
Brittany
Aragon
Navarre
Castile

and all of there unique units....

[Angelnessuno]

italians: i can suggest you this region
north italy

-Venezia (Venezia)
-Piemonte (piedmont)
-Milano (Milan)
centre of italy

-toscana (tuscany)
-Roma (Rome)
-Napoli (Naples)
-Siena
-Urbino
-Ferrara
south italy

-Napoli (Naples)
isle

-sicilia (sicily)
-Sardegna

[Angelnessuno]

european medieval map


http://www.cronologia.it/storia/aa1300d.htm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[NormanPain]

Nice, no complaints here. Can't wait by the way, keep up the good work.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think it would be interesting to include Ireland as quite a few served as mercenaries during the HYW and war of the roses but apart Richard II visit there and the duke of york being exiled there, it doesn't play a major part in proceedings

Will you include any of the islands? Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc. Important naval bases and were attacked( the latter two) during the HYW.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Another good unit idea is the mercernary companies which terroised france during the 1350's and 1360's. French, navaresse, Breton, British, etc would sack and brutalise anyone as long as money was involved and even though when peace with France was achieved in 1360 at the peace of Bretigny, they roamed unappposed striking at all.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Another good unit idea is the mercernary companies which terroised france during the 1350's and 1360's.
That should be seen as rebellions. Those companies were able to terrosise France because the King could not handle them or becuase he generally had not enough power/control over his regions. This translates to M:TW as low loyalty/happiness.
We could tie Mercenary Units to rebellions in French Provinces to simulate those mercernary companies.

Voulgiers
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/pics/infopic_voulgier.gif

Ships, trade, money
I want this game to be hard and that means in my eyes eliminating all features that only gives the player advantages over the player:
- the player can handle income/spending better;
- the player can organise naval invasions better;
- the player can trade better.

So I would like to see ships and trade eliminated, since they are so badly coded that it becomes too much advantage for the player. It will be also quite irritating for the English player to be unable to send troops over the Channel if there are still French ships.

The AI plays better if it's not in debt, so it might be a good move to give provinces a very large income.

Agents
I really don't like the cluttering of agents in the endgame. And again agents are better handled by the player than the AI.

Religion has no place in our mod since all the factions are catholic. So the religious agents are out.

I would like to the Spies and Assassins go. Spies are too easily abused to cause revolts and using Assassins to kill generals isn't right. In all my books I have never read this happening.

Also since we only have 2 major I doubt that we really need Emissaries, but I guess this can be still put on because they fit in.

To summarise I want a stripped down campaign that focuses around the battles and which gives the player a very hard time.

Cheers, Duke John

[Nomad]

As usual your sending me star-e eyed with all the eye candy.
Love the Swiss armoured Pike Dj. These meat grinders are elegant. As is the rest of the stuff. Still hoping you'll sort out some Lorrainer cavalry or a generic bif in the style of. Those MTW riders/knights are the weakest link in the MTW artwork.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Angelnessuno]

DJ ...i see the swiss armoured pikeman ,are they a new unit? i never see they ....in your mod :the war of two roses there were the mercenary pikeman but not them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Nice idea BKB, not sure how to follow this one up yet


Quote[/b] ]Will you include any of the islands? Man, Jersey, Guernsey etc. Important naval bases and were attacked( the latter two) during the HYW.

I would like to include the islands as Jersey/ Guernsey as they had some useful battles/ sieges and would make nice castle maps, but im not 100% sure, I will have to think about it.

Im also playing with the idea of making rivers a little more important. Maybe have provinces which are next to each other but the river acts as a barrier, so you can only cross at the next province which has a bridge.

Im also thinking over times scale and the size of the map....

Here is my problem, I will use an example to illustrate:
Calais to Paris is Approx 180 mile (280KM for all you heathens) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif On the map Im looking at/ working with this could easily be four provinces apart, hense four years, however this should easily be achievalbe in a 12 month march... So how do I achieve this?

Should I make provinces, which are not next to each other accessible, ie you skip over a few provinces in one turn ?

What do you all think...



BTW BKB do you have an England Flag on your car, most other in BRUM do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I'm to poor to buy a car http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But if i did you can bet they would be flying high http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[NormanPain]

I have a question...Ok several references often refer to english uniforms as red with either lions or sometimes flowers of sorts whereas other references from the same time period say their uniforms were white with a large red cross like their flag, or white with a small red cross up on their shoulder...so were uniforms up to the vassals who brought the troops or is it a difference between levies and professional soldiers? Im confused http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif Im asking you guys because you would more then likely know considering there wasnt many uniformed armies until around the 100 years war period. Any answer would be great...if you don't answer thats fine...I know you have better things to do, thanks in advance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Trax]

I'm not sure, but I think that first red uniforms in English army were issued to the New Model army during Civil war. I don ´t believe there was any kind of uniforms in medieval era, although I may be wrong.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ this is a Italian map of period
http://www.allempires.com/empires/venice/Atl_It2.jpg

[Nomad]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ June 10 2004,20:19)]Here is my problem, I will use an example to illustrate:
Calais to Paris is Approx 180 mile (280KM for all you heathens) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif On the map Im looking at/ working with this could easily be four provinces apart, hense four years, however this should easily be achievalbe in a 12 month march... So how do I achieve this?

Should I make provinces, which are not next to each other accessible, ie you skip over a few provinces in one turn ?

What do you all think...
Nice idea,
You could also make the game turn based i.e change the years into turns and edit the events calendar to record a new year say every 4 turns. But your idea probably involves less work.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ: monday i will write the composition of milanese army
in that period because i must return at home and seemy osprey book about italian army

[Angelnessuno]

DJ the another italian city could be the republic venice
,it was the most important italian states of the period http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif .....if you are interest monday i will give you also the list about venetian army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[ShadesWolf]

How do the following provinces sound:

Bern
Zurich
Grisons

Savoy
Turin

Genoa

Milan
Parma

Veniza
Verona

These will be split between
- The Swiss
- rebel/ independant (ie Savoy, Turin and Genoa)
- Milan
- Venice

http://www.shadesmtw.com/2crownsTW/campmapv1sketchitaly.jpg

This is a very rough sketch, as I dont have my pen installed. It is to show what I am thinking of for the Italy/ Swiss area........

[Duke John]

ShadesWolf
Could you edit one of your posts at the first page so that they contain all provinces with some remarks like: Flanders was reknown for Flemish Pikemen, but is also slightly rebellious: In spite of their reputation they contributed little but trouble for the Dukes, demonstrating a remarkable obstinacy to muster, endlessly arguing over pay and length of service, and on at least two occasions running ignominiously away in the face of the enemy.

Burgundian Provinces
I think Burgundy should be split up:
Throughout the whole period of the Valois Dukes the majority of men-at-arms came from the two Burgundies, and to a lesser extent the province of Artois.
[Source: Armies of Medieval Burgundy 1364-1477]
When you look at the map at page 4 you will see the Duchy of Burgundy and the County of Burgundy.

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Sorry DJ that was me,

when I changed the provinces, to include some Swiss and Italian ones, I must have deleted Franche-Comte and not noticed.

On a seperate subject - TURNS or YEARS.....

What your felling on this subject, both have advantages... which do you think.

If we use Turns then we could extend the game play, thus it would not be only 85 years, 4 turns could be 1 year....

however, if we dont have Years we will lose what year it is.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hey Shades i have done a Brittany faction, do you want it( Flags, names etc) or are you concentrating on the main factions?

Really like the province ideas by the way. I have a feeling i'm going to like this mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Hi BKB thanks for the nice words http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

At the moment Brittany is out of the scope of this mod, as by 1415 it was not a major player.

If you want you could always email it to me, so I can put it on the back burner, for any future mods, as I dont expect to spend much time playing Rome, as its not my historic period.... But it might be moddable so who knows....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Fair play mate. So who is in the mod, apart from English, France and Burgundy?

[ShadesWolf]

So far we have

Playable factions
The French
The English

Rebels
The Swiss
The Scots

Factions that act as civil war
The Burgundians
The Yorkists

Disabled Factions
The Milanese Citystate (this name should be edited)
Holy Roman Empire (may become rebel)


HOWEVER, All will be available for online play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]I dont expect to spend much time playing Rome, as its not my historic period.... But it might be moddable so who knows....
I'm not a fan of that period either. But if it proves moddable, then we shall just continue modding on the R:TW engine, right ShadesWolf?


Quote[/b] ]Sorry DJ that was me,
I have done worse things, no need to apology http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Turns or years
I was thinking about this as someone proposed this. We also have this problem with ME:TW. I think it would be best if we go for turns.
The problem with years is that I have too much knowledge of the period and that I simply don't want to play beyond 1500 because I know that by then the renaissance appeared.

However if we just ditch the years then we would indeed lose the feeling of time. But perhaps that is only good. You could then pretend that a turn would a year or even just a week. I don't know, but I like it better then being restricted to 1 province a year. If we call a turn months then it would be too obvious that monarchs are dying way too soon.

Another advantage of turning years into turns is that we can start the campaign at a different year then 1415. We could then use the appearing of the Golden Horde (the Burgundians) and the Swiss (Yorkists). That does mean that the time of arrival is always the same, but so is the starting position. I think it would be too ahistorical if Burgundy would appear in Scotland.

Other events could be used to mark the coming of the Ordonnance.

On the other hand. I've started quite a few campaigns and after 50 years so I could already predict that I was winning and I quit the campaign because it would be become ahistorical as I became a superpower.
So a span of 85 years might be enough to keep it interesting.

Techtree
I think that you will agree with me that the techtree concept is completely unrealistic. So I want to propose the following:
- Translate Training to Recruiting. Lords recruited troops, they did not train them. A minor change, but I think it's a nice little touch.
- Ditch all the buildings. Instead you can now build governors. Castle1 will be Lord. The infopic will show the lord with his entourage. The Lord can only recruit common troops. Then there are Earls/Dukes/Counts. who will be either an upgrade of the Lord or an additional building. The Dukes and Counts can recruit more advanced troops such as Men-at-Arms and artillery. Then there is the King, or even better the Throne. The King is able to recruit Knights.

The advantage is that the bastard feudal system is much better simulated as opposed to the techtree concept where buidlings dictate what you can build.
Since it takes time for the population to follow a new lord it becomes logical that it will need to be rebuild once a province is captured.

Titles
If we want the Governor buildings then we could stick titles to the buildings. We might be able to make the Lord building indestructible by using the indestructible Forest Clearing entry. The Lord would not get a title as each province automatically has the Lord title.
Then the Duke building will get a Duke title. And the Throne will get a Protector of the Realm title for England, and for the French.....

Forum and website
As we starting to collect alot of information and since you have ordered a few extra books. Would it perhaps be better if make a seperate forum as you suggested some time ago. I am afraid that we will lose interesting/valuable information as the thread gets more and more pages.

I've made a website a long time ago and I am still searching for a reason to finish it. I think the looks of it is appropiate for the period, and it could act as the Two Crowns website.
Edit: website (http://chronicles.metw.net/website)

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not a fan of that period either. But if it proves moddable, then we shall just continue modding on the R:TW engine, right ShadesWolf?


Right, a new engine would be fine, if it was moddable.

turns or years
Then we are decided, it will be turns. Now all we need to agree on is time period. I favour more of a season approach. So we say each turn is perhaps 3 months as a tuime period.

I personally would much prefer 1 turn/ 1 month but must agree kings would die out far to quick.

What this would allow for is varying start periods, so we could have two periods, one for 100 years war and one for war of the roses. This is sounding better and better. I now dont have to lose any more sleep worry about making factions appear in certain provinces on certain dates http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Tech tree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Titles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Forum and website http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif an excellent idea, I also feel this mod might start to become vast, so we need a dedicated forum and website. We can still use this thread on this forum to pass information.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]What this would allow for is varying start periods, so we could have two periods, one for 100 years war and one for war of the roses. I now dont have to lose any more sleep worry about making factions appear in certain provinces on certain dates.
We could still use one period. Why not? The Golden Horde and Swiss can be edited so that the Burgundians and Yorkists appear on a certain date and in certain provinces.

If you mean the 100 years war, do you mean the entire 100 years war? If so, then I think we should first focus on 1450-1500 as most of the unitgraphics only apply for that period. We would then have....oi I like it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif If we change to turns then 1450-1500 will be a long time. We would then have the Burgundian/French Ordonnance and we could make the Wars of the Roses part much more accurate.

Ok, so 2 periods, 1450-1500 and the entire HYW? ....could you start scanning? I think the 40+ BIFs will be just enough for both.

Cheers, Duke John

[Antalis::]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ June 13 2004,02:55)]We could still use one period. Why not? The Golden Horde and Swiss can be edited so that the Burgundians and Yorkists appear on a certain date and in certain provinces.
How can you do this: The arrival of the Golden Horde is hardcoded.
Or is there a way to do it?

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]How can you do this: The arrival of the Golden Horde is hardcoded.
Or is there a way to do it?
No, I meant that since we are using turns we could start the game at a different date then 1415, for example 1300. The Golden Horde would then appear a few years later (if it arrives at 1320, I don't know). The date is indeed set.

[NormanPain]

Trax, Uniforms were used in many armies and especially in orders such as Knights templar, hospitaller or the teutonic order, all of which had uniformed knights and their thousands of infantry, the french in the hundred years war from what I can find would a lighter blue color, It made it easier to tell who was who on the battlefield, not only for commanders but also for the soldiers. Most uniformed made were to mimick the flag of their country at the time from what I can find... I mean Im sure the levie troops went without uniform but professional soldiers from what I can gather did wear uniforms. I think you may be right though about red uniforms being used for the first time in the english civil war though because of the fact most uniforms in the middle ages mimicked flags and england's flag was certainly not red. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Excellent idea, as the burgundians also are hardcoded to appear at about 1368. However, this would mean we would have to mod MTW(VI) and not VI

This would allow for us to use to old province names and just change the descriptions, so we could have burgundy appearing in Burgundy, and the Yorkist could appear in Kazer as a renamed York factions.

This is also good news because we could have extra factions also,if we use the entire 100 years war.

- Flanders
- Brittany
- Navarre
- Castile
- Aragon.

This would also take into effect the peasant revolt of 1381 etc., excellent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Duke John]

Does the map need to be bigger then?


Quote[/b] ]Excellent idea, as the burgundians also are hardcoded to appear at about 1368. However, this would mean we would have to mod MTW(VI) and not VI

We shouldn't use the Burgundian appearence. It's not 100% that they always appear.
We only use the parts of MTW(VI) that we want to use.

[ShadesWolf]

as for the provinces I still have about 30 ish unassigned out of the 99, SO I can just re-jig a little to include a few iberian provinces and make Brittany, Gascon and Normandy a little larger.

NP mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Angelnessuno]

THE REPUBLIC OF VENICE
provinces:

italian territory
-Friuli
-veneto
-part of lombardia

Isle and empire
-istria
-Dalmatia
-Corfu'
-Crete
-Cyprus
-Nasso's archipelag

Units
MERCENARIES and venetian units
-''San Marco knight''
the elite venetians man at arm
-''LANZE SPEZZATE''(heavy mounted man at arm)
-''Cavalleggeri'' (light mounted man at arm )
an heavy cavalry but the horses hadn't their armour
-''ARSENALOTTI''ELITE doge's guard
-''STRADIOTTOI''
a greek -balcan cavalry that venice recluited from her provinces it was a light cavalry ,a skimisher cavalry and it fought with light lances ,javelings and crossbow
-''SFAKIOTY''
a light cretan archers recluited from crete
-''ZAGADARI''
an heavy cavalry , a cristian auxilia cavalry
-''Mounted crossbowman''
-''Mounted archibuisers''
(from middle of 15 century)
-''Mounted Hands Gunner''
-''TARGHIERI''(Pavise crossbowman)
-''ROTULARII'' (an italian sword- and Buckler)
a light infantry that didn't fight in formation ,a skimisher unit,it fought with a sword ,a little round shield
-''FOOT MAN AT ARM''
-''CROSSBOWMAN''
-''ARCHIBUISER''
-''Heavy Infantry with lances''
-''Light infantry with lances''
-''RONCOLIERI'' (billman)
-''Archers''
-''Militia''
-''PROVISIONATI''
a permanent heavy infanry well trained
ABROUD MERCENARIES:
-Swiss pikeman
-german pikeman
-german hands gunner


MILANESE

PROVINCES
-LOMBARDIA


MERCENARIES and Milanese units

the elite venetians man at arm
-''LANZE SPEZZATE''(heavy mounted man at arm)
-''Cavalleggeri'' (light mounted man at arm )
an heavy cavalry but the horses hadn't their armour
-''Mounted crossbowman''
-''Mounted archibuisers''
(from middle of 15 century)
-''Mounted Hands Gunner''
-''TARGHIERI''(Pavise crossbowman)
-''ROTULARII'' (an italian sword- and Buckler)
a light infantry that didn't fight in formation ,a skimisher unit,it fought with a sword ,a little round shield
-''FOOT MAN AT ARM''
-''CROSSBOWMAN''
-''ARCHIBUISER''
-''Heavy Infantry with lances''
-''Light infantry with lances''
-''RONCOLIERI'' (billman)
-''Archers''
-''Militia''
-''PROVISIONATI''
a permanent heavy infanry well trained
ABROUD MERCENARIES:
-Swiss pikeman
-german pikeman
-german hands gunner
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Thanks Angelnessuno some good info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

How much of a part did the Island soldiers play in Italian warefare - ie Crete ?

[Duke John]

I just wanted to say that most mounted missile units were not actually mounted in combat. For example there are lots of references of mounted longbows. But this only meant that they could operate together with other cavalry (which also dismounted before battle).
You have to be absolutely sure that the units were actually used mounted in combat. I especially have my doubts about Mounted Handgunners. Considering the awkward loading and aiming of handguns I doubt that they actually shot from horseback. Even in Napoleonic times mounted handgunners would use their horses to deploy forward or on the flank and then would dismount to shoot.

Apart from that, excellent research Angelnessuno

[Trax]

Quote[/b] ]
You have to be absolutely sure that the units were actually used mounted in combat. I especially have my doubts about Mounted Handgunners. Considering the awkward loading and aiming of handguns I doubt that they actually shot from horseback. Even in Napoleonic times mounted handgunners would use their horses to deploy forward or on the flank and then would dismount to shoot.

But in the same time there was entire era, when most cavalry fought in caracole.

[NormanPain]

perhaps mounted handgunners could be used as light cavalry or dismounted before the battle to become handgunners so you have a somewhat flexible unit.

[Angelnessuno]

DJ: i am very sure about mounted archibuisers.......
italy was the first that used this kind of unit .......it was at vangard in all kind of military invention until the end of
15 century for example in italy you can find the first sanitary military system
SHADES WOLF ..........cretan archer were recluited in crete .....it was a venetian province until the end-middle of 1600 ,venetians used this greeks units in italians wars and at Fornovo against france in 1495

[CBR]

AFAIK some mounted crossbowmen used a ligher version of the foot crossbow and the cranequin was the primary device for such troops. That does imply that mounted use was an option for them.

I would say they were flexible units that would dismount if needed (when facing enemy foot missile) and operate mounted if enemy cavalry was a threat.

The same thing can be said of the mounted arquebusier. The arquebus was a relatively short weapon (similar to a carabin) so not that difficult to reload.

Even if we assume they only used their weapon dismounted they would have their horses nearby (especially if operating on flanks where enemy cavalry could counterattack) so the best way to simulate that in a mod, would be to allow them to work as a mounted unit.

In later times such units became suicidal as they were facing all missile armed infantry and they (now called Dragoons) would operate dismounted when used for missile skirmishing.


CBR

[Duke John]

I've been a bit more busy with the campmap and below is a test image for the purpose of matching the palette and looks... so how does it look?
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/dev_campmap/campmap_wip_v1.jpg

ShadesWolf
Are you busy with making a work-in-progress LukUp? I want to finish that part as quickly as possible so that we have a base to start modding with. If you don't have the time at the moment, could you please make a quick sketch of which provinces are to be included and how large they should be? I will then make an image for LMM to process.

3D Unit profile
Well, not exactly a profile, but this might be a feature on the website if I can get the size smaller:
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/misc/profile_voulgier.avi

Cheers, Duke John

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Mmm - nice model - especially like the animated link DJ. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]ShadesWolf
Are you busy with making a work-in-progress LukUp? I want to finish that part as quickly as possible so that we have a base to start modding with. If you don't have the time at the moment, could you please make a quick sketch of which provinces are to be included and how large they should be? I will then make an image for LMM to process.


Im currently working on provinces. With the enlarged map I need to re-look at Italy. I also want to change Brittany and Normandy to add more.

I also need to look at Iberia. I am planning on getting these completed in the next couple of days.

The following sketchs are what I have so far.

http://www.shadesmtw.com/england.gif

http://www.shadesmtw.com/france2.gif

[Duke John]

Is Iberia needed? It's all fine but I'm quickly loosing BIF slots, and if I want to also make Spanish troops then I need to loose some units that I would much rather keep.

What about Luxembourg?

Edit: I noticed that some provinces are placed wrongly (Brabant at least)? Is this on purpose?

[ShadesWolf]

how many bif slots do we have ?

[Duke John]

We have 48 BIF slots, incl. horses.

[ShadesWolf]

Brabant should touch the coast, but im trying to even provinces out. If I increase its size, Holland and Zeeland will reduce in size.

[ShadesWolf]

With the enlarged campaign, we have the following factions..

England
York
Scotland
Brittany
flanders
France
Swiss
Burgundy
Italy (Milan and Ventian)
HRE

Brittany will share the same early year units as France.

I would also assume that the Italian units will be similar.

I also assume that a pikemen from Scotland is similar to a Flemish pike, but they are both differnt to Swiss.

Looking at all of this, makes me think Iberia is a province to far, and get me out of having to create maps/ castles for the area. OK we will drop Iberia. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Duke John]

I had a serious look at the BIFs and this is what I have:

14th century
1. Knights
2. Dismounted Knights
3. Light Cavalry
4. Mounted Men-at-Arms
5. Men-at-Arms
6. Artillery Crew
7. Spearmen
8. Archers
9. Voulgiers
10. Longbows
11. Billmen
12. Flemish Militia

15th century
13. Crossbows
14. Arbalester
15. Pavise Arbalester
16. Longbows
17. Handgunners
18. Mounted Crossbowmen
19. Artillery Crew
20. Voulgiers
21. Dismounted Knights, Italian armour
22. Knights, Italian armour
23. Dismounted Knights, Western armour
24. Knights, Western armour
25. Halberdiers
26. Pikemen
27. Men-at-Arms, Western armour
28. Retinue Billmen
29. Shire Billmen
30. Retinue Longbows
31. Swiss Pikemen
32. Swiss Armoured Pikemen
33. Swiss Halberdiers
34. Mounted Men-at-arms, French armour
35. Men-at-arms, French armour
36. Mounted Burgundian Men-at-Arms
37. Burgundian Men-at-Arms
38. Burgundian Pikemen

14th and 15th century
39. Scottish Nobles
40. Dismounted Scottish Nobles
41. Highlanders
42. Italian infantry
43. Crossbows

44. Horse
45. Horse, barded
46. Horse, cloth


Doubts...
I'm not so sure anymore about including the entire HYW period. I have already deleted some units and the 14th century is really missing some characterfull units.

If we stick to the 15th century then we could have more faction specific units. What do you think? Since unitgraphics is my passion you shouldn't take this too lightly and just say that we should use alot of generic BIFs.

Edit:
Or what about this: I like the Wars of the Roses and you like the HYW. What if make 2 campmaps. One focused for the Wars of the Roses and 1 for the HYW. This will exclude the Burgundian Wars which will free up a whole bunch of BIF slots.
The reason I suggest this is because the WotR already is a good mod for 15th century warfare. And the HYW will be a bit more diverse and it will be visually quite different. This way we can give both periods worthwhile campaigns instead of weak compromises.

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]This will exclude the Burgundian Wars which will free up a whole bunch of BIF slots.


Hows about going the other way. We go back to a later period of the hundred years war and continue to include the Burgundian Wars.

So say from either 1415 - 1485
or maybe to allow for a little difference 1402-1485 (This way we could start with Shrewsbury.)

How many BIF slots will this free, as we would therefore lose All the Spanish units (not net created), it would also remove Brittany and Flanders as unique 'countries'.

Thi sway we still have campaigns going on in mainland units as well as the UK ?

This I feel would free up maybe 8-10 slots to allow for more characterfull units.

It this is the case the sketch of the campaign map is almost complete.

[Angelnessuno]

SW: i think that 1402-1485 is perfect
now is important to find the name of the city for every provinces

[Angelnessuno]

great idea DJ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[DJ: I deleted some double posts you made, no need to spam here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif]

[Duke John]

So we won't need this anymore:
http://chronicles.metw.net/tc/dev_campmap/provinces_england.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif
Ok.

Quote[/b] ]Hows about going the other way. We go back to a later period of the hundred years war and continue to include the Burgundian Wars.

Ok then, I thought you would like to see the entire HYW (well you still do), and I came across some images/manuscripts which inspired me alot into making some 14th century models. But ok, we're back to our initial concept.

[Ellesthyan]

Darn, no Bertram Duguesclin... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ June 08 2004,20:45)]Shall we contact one of the members who play Crusader Kings and ask them to make some screenshots of the European map. We will then have very quickly loads of historical provinces. I guess froggy can do that as payment for her Geisha smilies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geishatongue.gif
I've only just found this thread and skim read it until I hit this; if you want CK screenies than just ask and give me somewhere to send them. I already have a map pieced together covering England, Wales, Scotland, France and Germany in full detail with the names visible.

If you need anything from CK, ask.

This mods sounds as if it may tempt me to play again, and that is no mean feat - I've never bothered with a mod and I have actually begun to hate MTW.

[Duke John]

Thanks, froggy Could you then please show us some screens of the French/Flanders/Italian/Western part of HRE and Swiss regions, or in short the regions that are in the campmap screen that I showed some posts ago.

Thanks in advance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I need hosting, I can't use the frog/arena/head hall spaces here...

[Duke John]

Could you perhaps post it in the Arena, CK thread? I'll download them and then you can remove them. If that is not possible/too much of a hassle then send them to my email.


Quote[/b] ]This mods sounds as if it may tempt me to play again, and that is no mean feat - I've never bothered with a mod and I have actually begun to hate MTW.
Modding doesn't earn me any money but these comments make it all worthwhile, thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-nice.gif

[frogbeastegg]

OK, I'll chop the huge image down to a reasonable size and post in a new topic in the arena for you, so I don't hit unsuspecting patrons with a massive image. If you need anything else PM me, I don't read the mod forums; I found this because of a link in one of the RTW threads on accuracy.

[NormanPain]

If you don't mind me asking...what books are those from? Im going to be moving to florida soon and it would be nice to have something new to read along the way, Just wondering. Thanks in advance

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]If you don't mind me asking...what books are those from? Im going to be moving to florida soon and it would be nice to have something new to read along the way, Just wondering. Thanks in advance

NormanPain both books are from Osprey. The picture of the Longbowmen is from a book called 'English Longbowmen 1330-1515' by Clive bartlett - ISBN 1-85532-491-1

The second is from 'Orleans 1429 - France turns the tide' by David Nicolle - ISBN 1-84176-232-6

If you are to purchase these, I would suggest you get them from Amazon and not Osprey direct. as they will be cheaper and all will arrive quicker.

Goodluck in the move http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

--------------------------------------------------

I have re-looked at the provinces of Britain, it is now made up as follows

Scotland = 4
wales = 3
england = 31

I will post the new image later today, once I get back home from work. For more info on the provinces look at page one of this thread.

[NormanPain]

Thank you much sir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Lovely jubbly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

By the way that Longbowman book has one of my fav osprey pics when the British archers are assaulting the earthworks of Castillon, 1453 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Duke John]

Ok I have seen your sketch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif I will start working on the campmap now. I have some freetime tomorrow and I guess I will get pretty far by the evening.

Cheers, Duke John

[ShadesWolf]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif great thanks mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I beieve it wasmainly a Bishopric in Limoges, definetly at the time of when the Black prince sacked it in 1371(?) but i'm not sure in this mods timebase.

Loking good though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Antalis::]

This mod is really impressive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

You both are a perfect team.


I´m sure this mod will be on the top list of mods for MTW.


Hope you will also use this special castle system?
So that every province has its own castle.

But that would be an amount of work.


greetings: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Antalis

[ShadesWolf]

Antalis I am planning to whereever possible use all the castles I have and to create a few new one. I will attempt to get to one castles per province, but in some areas this will be impossible.

As an example:

Normandy will have either Rouen or Caen
Toulouse/ languedoc will have carcassonne
coulogne will have calais
Burgundy will have dijon

etc.....

[Duke John]

Recruitment
We have loads of provinces and perhaps 2/3 of them is divided by 2 factions. Do we really want troop producing for all of them? I think not, so I have the following ideas.

Indesctrutable building
The Forest Clearing is hardcoded to be indestructable. Now I don't know wether we can make this a castle, but if so I have the following 2 options:

Capital
The indesctructable building will be called the capital and tied to the capitals of the factions: London, Paris Burgundy, etc?
This gives the player the feeling that he has a home for which he should fight. Because it cannot be destroyed it will be also be visible on the map. The capital allows you to recruit Royal Knights.

Dukedoms
I don't know if this is the right name, but we will place them all over the map certain so that we can restrict the recruitment to certain provinces. The advantage is that the AI will always be able to immediately produce troops.

Alternative
We could also make 8 or so Unique building entries. Each of them allows the same set of units to be build. The problem with this is that some players will build them all far behind the frontline while he could capture the AI ones. I think we need to protect abusive players if we want them to enjoy the game instead of giving them another ability to abuse the system.


The above options are made up to avoid the problems of managing an empire that has 30 troop producing problems and that is apart from a possible balancing nightmare.

I have to go, but please think about how we can solve this problem. And I do think it's a problem because starting with a 30 province empire costs some time to comprehend.

Cheers, Duke John

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Nice idea about the capital system

[Angelnessuno]

DJ ....lombardy is the name of the region that include Milan and pavia
i suggest you to change Lombardy with ''Alessandria'' or
''Brescia''or ''Bergamo'' or ''Parma''
Turin is in the North and not after Genoa
anyway i post in the 4th page of this topic the map of italy ....i think that is a good idea to use the name of cities for the italian provinces it reflect the typical italian city-states feeling of the period
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Duke John]

Angelnessuno
The names can always be changed, no problem there. But is the layout of the provinces allright?
In the map from Crudader Kings Lombardi and Pavia were seperate provinces. I found it a nice touch to add Pavia since the Pavise originated from that city.
Note that the focus of the mod doesn't lie at the Italian citystates. It's an extra so there will be some compromises.

Recruitment
I still think 100 provinces are a big problem so let me explain my reasoning again as it is vital to get it right. I always see resources and trading goods as tools and rarely as they were originally intented. Thinking out of the box gave me the idea for ME:TW to make resources the races of Middle-Earth and trading goods would become the capitals. Might sound a bit weird but it adds alot more charm then just resources and trading goods.

Faction specific units
I think we all agree that we don't want Italian infantry being trained in Scotland or Shire Longbows in Southern France.
So we will restrict most units to the homelands of the factions. Also the units should only be trainable by that particular faction. Why? Well each faction has a particular fighting style. An English army will not suddenly change tactics because they can now train Knights d'Ordonnance in Burgundy.
We will keep all the factions unique which will be one of the main strenghts of this mod.

How to make this clear to the player?
Trading goods will be called: Faction armylist. So for example in Burgundy you will have a trading goods called: Burgundian armylist, French Armylist. The trading goods have no effect whatsoever except for making the player clear that he can train Burgundian and French units in Burgundy.

Techtree

No techtree
I have said this before but I will repeat to avoid confusion. The techtree concept is just crap, it's completely unrealistic. You won't see any reference in historical books that Burgundy was able to train Knights because it had build a Master Armourer. Heck, even though countries were at war with each other it didn't stop the merchants to trade armour/weapons to buyers from opposing factions.

Governships are the buildings
A castle is technical wise required for troops to be produced. So my idea is to translate buildings to Governship. Instead of a building icon you will now see an icon that represents the ...governship. Remember that troops are not trained, they are recruited. To recruit these groups you will need an authority: the governour.
(I use governship but we could call it something else, it's only conceptual).

Castle or regular building?
Either way the Governship should be indestructable. You cannot trust the AI to build them in provinces where it can actually train troops. It is fully well capable of building a Governship in England as the French.
If we cannot make it work as a castle then it will be a regular building with the castle being something else.

Rate of recruitment

How many governships?
We have over 100 provinces. It would be insane to give all these provinces the ability to recruit troops; at a certain time you don't know what do with 4 stacks coming every turn. Historically not all provinces could provide huge amounts of troops. Leaders would go through several regions and muster troops as they went. Or they called upon men who had an indenture related to the ruler. So the governship should be seen as a central place where troops from surrounding regions go to to serve their lord. This means that only a couple of provinces will get Governships.

Rate of recruitment
Now I have said that not all provinces will get governships. We need to look closer at the rate of recruitment to something concrete about the number of governships. We have 2 options:

1. Increase the training time. For example 3 turns would give alot less units while you do have the ability to recruit in alot of provinces. The downside is still many provinces to keep watch over, and especially with this option since you have to check how far the unit is.

2. 4-10 Governships per faction. France starts with a very large country so it will need more governships than the Swiss Confederacy. This small amount of Governships will make it far clear where troops are being produced and when they are ready.
This will make the game much more fastpaced which is quite important as we are playing in turns(=months/season) and not years.

I prefer option 2 as I want it to be easily comprehensible. This doesn't mean dumbing it down, but when I load a saved game I don't want to look hours at the regions to see what the current status is. I want to dive in This will make PBEM campaings also more feasable as they tended to halt as empires expanded to huge sizes.

Mercenaries and local troops.

The AI doesn't hire
I have did some tests with mercenaries and I came to the conclusion that the AI doesn't hire mercenaries even when it has lots of money and Inns are the only source of troops. It does so only rarely so they are only an advantage for the player to quickly get an army.

Availability
So mercenaries will not be recruited via Inns, but via some special kind of governship. Since mercenaries will probably available for every faction at every Governship we will need to restrict the recruitment rate of Mercenaries. I think the best way to do this is by increasing the training time.

Local troops
Troops such as Flemish Pikemen are trainable by all factions and only in a single province. So they will be given a seperate trading good icon/description. If it turns out that the troops are local in a province that doesn't get a governship then we should make some kind of special governship building.

The advantages of this system
It's only my opinion and it would of course need to be tested, but I think that the endresult is more realistic and gives the faction more uniqueness then regular M:TW. And great feature is that becoming a large empire doesn't make you stronger by definition. You only have limited Governships that can train your troops so while you get bigger your frontlines also becomes bigger. Expand to quickly and you cannot hold your empire and it will collapse.

Income
The human player is most of time better at spending money. However since we eliminated the techtree the AI can no longer make mistakes with buildings. Since the armylist is pretty small and can be influenced pretty well with training priorities the AI might actually be capable of putting historical forces together without being restricted to cheap units.
Still there is a danger that the AI will only make the cheap troops once it gets poor.

Unlimited income?
Should we increase the income of regions so that the AI doesn't need to worry about money? While playtesting must prove the theory I think that we should do this from the start. Normally this would give problems as each province would train units and huge stacks would fill the map. But I think the limited amount of Governships will keep this within boundaries.



That was a quite a lengtly post, but still I would ask you all to digest it, think about it and then post your reactions, improvements. Also I would greatly appreciate it if someone would test wether Forest Clearing can be made a castle. I do know that the tags should be the same, but it might be paste the tags into the Castle entries.

Cheers, Duke John

[Angelnessuno]

-i agree with all your ideas specially Increasing the training time...when i played with mtw and i had a lot of money it was easy to recluit a lot of units and maybe the turn after the battle dismiss them...if the turn to recluit mercenaries is enlarge this problem is solve
- i agree to not use the techtree sytem itr was really unrealistic
-100 provinces?....really it is more about mtw




http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Duke John]

Good to hear you agreeing

Could you also post your opinion about wether the Italian citystates have about the right size/form?

Thanks, Duke John

[Angelnessuno]

oky.....
i agree with your idea about the size/form of provinces the only thing that i think that you should change is the name of province :Lombardy because it is the name of a region while the other italian provinces are the name of cities for example with ''BERGAMO'' and turin is in the north- west upon genoa.....in the 4 page of this topic there is a map of italy
the cities most important are these ,you can choose between these :

DUCHY of MILAN
-Milan
-Alessandria
-Parma
-Cremona
-Como
REP. OF VENICE
-Venice
-Padova
-Verona
-Bergamo
-Brescia

other provinces :
Genoa
Turin


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Duke John]

Ok, thanks. Then I can start working on the map...although I'm also testing something out that deals with rendering 100 animated soldiers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Angelnessuno]

-Venetian Flag
http://flagspot.net/images/i/it-snmrc.gif

-milanese Flag
http://www.grazzano.it/a_Grazzano/curiosita/i_visconti.htm

[Duke John]

Topic moved to the Two Crowns forum.
This thread will be split up into seperate threads to optimize development.

Cheers, Duke John

[Ellesthyan]

About the huge kingdom of France: you might want to consider breaking it up in a few separate factions (since you are starting in 1415). IIRC France was in a civil war, and probably as in England a few years later, there would've been different houses of power. For example the Armagnacs, the Burgundians, the Valois, etc.

Will there be different levels of governships? I mean, you had different kinds of places: the big cities that would recruit militia troops, the powerful land lords that would use mostly a noble cavalry army, and the royal professional troops; the standing elite. A big, powerful city like Reims would therefore have a citygovernship, while the Auvergne would have a noblegovernship. The places were the king had the most power - Ile de la France, Orleans, etc. - would have the royalgovernship.

I am against unlimited income. One of the main parts of MTW was handling the economy especially early in the game; It's what makes mods like Fall of Rome and the Medmod so populair. Certain provinces were very valuable, and therefore would be fought over frequently.
The economy however could be changed a little, to represent a real tax system. Using the already mentioned levels of governships, you could add financial bonusses to them. A large city will gain a lot of taxes, while nobles are less inclined to help their king. The royal lands bring in the most money, and are therefore extremely important for the king. As they were in reality.

Just my thoughts, I hope they'll be useful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[RisingSun]

This is my first post in here, I hope it's helpful-

With the trade goods system you are putting in, I have an idea.

You could have the trade goods as you mentioned, but you should also have a new one, maybe called nobles or such. This would mean that governship could train some of the more elite units, as it had a substantial amount of higher class warriors. This would make knights, etc even more valuable, as they were.

Comments?

[ShadesWolf]

Welcome RisingSun thaks for the comments,

Nice idea, something else to think about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Antalis::]

Wow, I played the Wars of the Roses mod.
Really impressive units.
A pitty that the campaign doesn´t working, but now in this mod it will, very nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

And with this quality of units the mod Two Crowns mod will be great

[Angelnessuno]

i think that the prevew mod about two crows will help you a lot with this new mod .....anyway.......


we want to see some screenshots http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Angelnessuno]

THE REPUBLIC OF VENICE
Units
tomorrow i will write about venetian organization ,hiring ,payment system

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

MERCENARIES and venetian units

-''San Marco knight order''
San Marco order was composite by the Venetian Nobility
it was an elite unit of knight armoured with the best italian and german armours design,it was a mounted heavy troop well trained and equiped
(DJ i think that you can use them like royal knight .....Venice was a republic so there weren't the royal knight)

-''LANZE SPEZZATE''(heavy mounted man at arm)
Generalli the new permanently employed Horseman was know as a ''Lanze Spezzate'' or ''broken lance'' and stemmed from the fact that many of the first had either deserted from ''Condottieri''company or came from those whose leader had died : they were common in most italian Armies
They were heavy Men-at-arms that continued to use old cavalry tactics consisting of repeated frontal charges
-''Cavalleggeri'' (light mounted man at arm )
an heavy cavalry but the horses hadn't their armour

-North Italian Light cavalrymen ''CAVALLERIA LEGGERA''
Venetians and Italians cavalry were divided into light and heavy units,throught the main difference seem to have been
in the uses of otherwise of horse-armour
In the fiftheenth century italians light cavalrymen were quite heavily armoured by early standards
They charged the enemy with their lances ,after in the middle of battle they used their swords.
The primarily heavy cavalry tactics consisting of repeated frontal charges while the light cavalry must manouvre and charge the enemy in the flanks so
the light cavalry operated after the charge of the heavily mounted units

-''Heavy mounted Man-At arms''
they continued to use old fashioned cavalry tactics consisting of repeated frontal charges by relatively small formations. The italian man-at-arms were heavily armoured respect their 14th century counterparts .
They were equiped with italian armours that were famous for their design,unlike the best german armours,with their almost barbaric abundance of decoraytions the 15th century italian armor were strict and functionals as a modern warplane .

-''ARSENALOTTI''ELITE (doge's guard)
The Elite of Venetian infantry were drawn from the ranks of ''Arsenalotti'' They provided guards from the doge's palace and other governament buildings ,acting as a police force and even a fire-brigade,as well as furnishing detachments of well-equiped infantry


-''STRADIOTTOI''
Stradiotti were always lightly armoured or even unarmored ,they were recluited in the southen and eastenmost part of the venetian empire,maybe from Dalmatia and Istria ,it was a light skirmisher cavalry.
They fought primally with light spears,swords and Asian composited bow.
Their fighting style was very similar to light spanish cavalry who fought a' la jineta in Moorish style.
The stradiotti had shown their skill in counter-raiding,forming advance and rear guard ,harassing the foe in naval landing.
In Combat the stradiotti operated in a manner identical to their bizantine predecessors and muslim-turkish enemies :ropeating charging and withdrawing ,them couterattacking a foe who had become disourganised.


-''SFAKIOTY ''infantry Archers
They were recluited in the Venetian province of Crete,They fought for Venice but they were generally a source of rebels,brigands and pirates.We can have some doubt about their loyality specially because Crete vas famous for his Anti-Venetian Feeling
it was a light equiped gneraly unarmored archers that fought with normal bows .

-''ZAGADARI''
It was a heavy cavalry unit... generally mercenaries that came from Cristian European territory...the great part was recluited from german.

-''Mounted crossbowman''
They were included in a lot of european army but They played a mor significative role in italian armies.it operated as a skirmisher unit in open order avoiding frontal assoult

-''Mounted archibuisers''
Mounted archibuisers rarely used their weapons from horseback but were becoming popular as bodyguards.
Only at and of 15th century they begin to operate like skirmisher and counter-raiding units.The Famous Condottiery Jovanni of Black bard Had in is mercenaries army these units that operated specially in night raids
against enemy infantry units .These units of mounted archibuiser in jovanni army wore black armour so during night attacks the enemy had some problem to see and distinguish them

-''TARGHIERI''or (Pavise crossbowman)
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''ROTULARII'' (an italian sword- and Buckler)
The italians sword -and bucker foot soldiers were a light fast and quick assault infantry distinguished by small round shield.Lightly equiped and trained for offensive fighting
This new type of unit is borned after the decline of the old urban militias in response to warfare in the broad flat lombard plain with its pachworks of river and canals

-''FOOT MAN AT ARM''
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''CROSSBOWMAN''
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''ARCHIBUISER''
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''Heavy Infantry with lances''
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''Italian Light Cavalry''

The role of light infantry was vital in those siege that dominated italian renaissance warfare .They were light armoured ,generally they used a large wooden shield that became charactheristic of italy's infantry. Their primarily arms were pole-weapons like spears
In Italy there was the tendency to use only a lef harnees worn on the vulnerable left leg ,wich was normally advanced foward when fighting in ranks.
The light italian infantry tradition is something similar to the english longbowmen ,or swiss pikeman tradition .
All infantry were trained to act in close co-operation with friendly cavalry and to attack enemy horsemen rathen than foot soldiers.
They would also engage the enemy in relatively open order avoiding frontal assault but moving fast and attempting to hit the enemy flanks
-''RONCOLIERI'' (billman)
The characteristic italian ''Roncone'' a version of the english bill provied inadeguate against the latest full plates cavalry .During Middle of 15th century they were still used but they were gradually replaced by the heavier swiss-style halberders
-''Archers''
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-''Militia''
-common units-

-''PROVISIONATI''
Garrison units were naturally the first such permanent troops and were know as ''Provvisionati'' from their regular wage or ''provvisione''.
The great part of provisionati were infantry generally heavy equiped.
Like ''Lanze Spezzate'' cavalry units Provvisionati were common in most italians army

ABROUD MERCENARIES:

-Swiss pikeman
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-german pikeman
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-

-german hands gunner
-nothing to say they were common in all europe-


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Duke John]

Thanks alot Angelnessuno http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

I can't garantuee that all the units will make it, but you have given us everything to base the final list on.

Cheers, Duke John

[Angelnessuno]

tomorrow if i will have time i will wrote something about
organization ,hiring ,payment system


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Angelnessuno]

i did a mistake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif i mean
''Italian Light infantry''
and not
''italian light cavalry''


-''Italian Light infantry''

The role of light infantry was vital in those siege that dominated italian renaissance warfare .They were light armoured ,generally they used a large wooden shield that became charactheristic of italy's infantry. Their primarily arms were pole-weapons like spears
In Italy there was the tendency to use only a lef harnees worn on the vulnerable left leg ,wich was normally advanced foward when fighting in ranks.
The light italian infantry tradition is something similar to the english longbowmen ,or swiss pikeman tradition .
All infantry were trained to act in close co-operation with friendly cavalry and to attack enemy horsemen rathen than foot soldiers.
They would also engage the enemy in relatively open order avoiding frontal assault but moving fast and attempting to hit the enemy flanks
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Angelnessuno]

a site about italian reinassance army very well done


http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_italy.html http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Just kinda noticed this now. This looks like excellent work on y'all's part. When will the full version be released?

[ShadesWolf]

We have no schedule of when this mod will be released. We are curretnly working on it and will let you all now when it is in a position to be released.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ June 30 2004,15:51)]We have no schedule of when this mod will be released. We are curretnly working on it and will let you all now when it is in a position to be released.
excellent, I await its release with trepidation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Kali]

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Been perusing these threads and this mod looks wicked. The game re-thinking gets a big thumbs up and those animation bif's are a work of art. The new camp map will finally give a bit more depth to my favourite factions. This undertaking must take alot of time, thanx for the hard work guys, your making the original Total War look a bit shabby.
https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Kali]

:jumping: Hello anyone in,
Have you guys gone undercover. Maybe Creative Assembly have kidnapped them for their animation skills. Or am I just too impatient.
:tomato:

[Silver Rusher]

Hi,

I have had neither the time to read this thread nor the time to download, but I picked up that there were only 6 factions (I'm not sure if the swiss and the scots count)

Is this justified by huge tremendous detail on the campaign map as well as many new units, or what?

[ShadesWolf]

The mod will include a new map and plenty of new units ~D (most factons and units are playable on my working version, but they require their stats to be worked on)

But I need to understand what RTW will offer before I continue with this mod, if Romes offer me nothing then I will continue creating it on MTW. If rome offers a lot then I will move it over to Rome and then, latter comeback and finish off the MTW version.....

[Kali]

Hi Shadeswolf,
I tried the link in your signature and its dead m8 or at least it takes you to the old temporary forum. So the 2 Crowns mods on hold till RTW comes out. That explains things. Shame looked like it was going to upstage RTW, before RTW even got out of the box.
If you need any stat/play testing, or 2D design for the MTW:TC i'll be glad to lend a hand.
With all the system probs in RTW, I'll no doubt have to upgrade my P3, so will probably be waiting a while to get a sniff of the finished RTW:Two Crowns mod or a descent RTW game for that matter.
~:rolleyes:

[ShadesWolf]

Thanks for the offer mate, I'll keep it in mind.

[Thedevil003]

Is almost ready

[Kali]

Is almost ready

~D Is that an official comment. Is the there an MTW:TC version nearly ready for release. Or ..........????

:jumping:

[ShadesWolf]

I have a working version, but It needs balancing. The unit stats are unbalanced. However, it was playable. When I placed it on hold I was working on the MP part of the game, Setting up unique units to factions. This is 75% complete.

As for the campaign part, currently England and Scotland are playable, but yet again it is not balanced.

I need to spend a lot of time looking into unit stats, amount of arrows per unit etc....

Until I see what Rome offers, I can see little progress. HOWEVER, what I can say is that if the rumours are true about Time Commander 2 being based on a Medieval engine then ' there should' be no reason why not to go back to TC on the Rome engine.

But I want to understand who graphics will work in rome will they still be BIF's or are they going to use a new format. How will the file structure work etc....

[JR-]

dead?

[ah_dut]

Is there any possibility of a download even if it ain't the most balanced?

[ShadesWolf]

I will look into it and let you know