Why is Civilization addictive and not fun?

[econ21]

For some reason I got the idea to revisit Civilization. Previously, I played a bit of Civ2 a long time ago, getting competitive at deity level. I thought it was a really well made game but just not my cup of tea (I prefer wargames and RPGs). Bought Civ3 but never really got into it.

However, spending some time with Civ2 after a long break from it the other day (and failing to get into Civ3 again) I found the game very strange. There is something wierdly compelling about it - one more turn etc - but on the other hand I can't say I enjoy it much at all. You spend your time doing rather dull grunt work, micromanaging stuff, and the wars seem glacially slow (with multiple early units crawling a square a turn). MTW is SO much better yet strangely not nearly so addictive. I read an article once about addictive behaviour - it say a key aspect is when you keep doing something that you don't actually find that enjoyable or rewarding. Playing Civ seems a quintessential example of this.

I am not sure what the attraction is - partly you get frequent rewards, eg new discoveries, new buildings, new units, minor expansions to the empire et. Partly the AI in Civ2 is pretty good so there is a decent challenge on higher difficulty levels.

I found Imperialism II a much better game in terms of reducing the micromanagement while retaining a pretty fierce challenge. I have not really tried other games in this genre (the standard RTS types have no appeal to me). TotalWar has some province micromanagement that you can get bogged down in too like Civ but is so much better in terms of war-fighting both on the tactial level (obviously) but also at the strategic level.

[Spino]

I played Civilization II a fair amount but played the original Civilization well into the wee hours of the morning. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Currently I am hopelessly addicted to Desert Combat, a mod for Battlefield 1942. As with the original Civilization I find it extremely addictive AND fun.

I still find myself playing marathon sessions of Medieval once in awhile, but only with my own personal mod which improves the gameplay to my tastes. However, unlike the Civilization series Medieval has ridiculously simplified diplomacy and terrible strategic AI which can sour the entire experience. This is not to say I am an expert player but when the AI's only strengths are being an unpredictable pest and unreliable ally the game can get boring rather quickly.


Quote[/b] ]I am not sure what the attraction is - partly you get frequent rewards, eg new discoveries, new buildings, new units, minor expansions to the empire et. Partly the AI in Civ2 is pretty good so there is a decent challenge on higher difficulty levels.

This is a big part of the equation. Part of the game's basic design is to make you work for rewards which keep the gameplay fresh and will force you to adopt new strategies. Furthermore Civilization allowed you to choose what kind of civilization you wanted to build, you never felt you were being pigeonholed towards adopting a specific strategy in order to win. And finally Civilization's AI was always decent which really helped the longevity factor.

[nightcrawlerblue]

I rarely find many games fun now. I find that most games now aren't really fun they're just ways to pass the time.

I've had situations similiar to yours several times. I found Galactic Civilizations to be a good game but it wasn't addictive like Civilization. Total War I find to be very fun but once again it isn't addictive. There are only a few games that I find both addictive and fun (Civilization, Master of Orion 2, and Impossible Creatures).

[scooter_the_shooter]

thats like me and mtw now for some reason lost all the favor so i am now making middle earth vs medieval mod. with a third faction i have not decided on

[RisingSun]

The last game I played that was both was Rise of Nations.

The game before that was Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

Before that, Starcraft: Brood War.

And finally, Falcon 3.

And that's pretty much the whole list. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Rosacrux]

Addictive and fun?

Not an easy combination... MTW did it for me, at least when I started with it and when some interesting mods (WesW's, HTW) came out.

The most addictive and fun game in my gaming experience, is Civ2. Civ the original is close and MOO2 for some time was too. Also HOMM2 was my absolute addiction for some time and it was loads of fun, as was MOM.

Baldur's Gate (especially the original but also #2)too.

My only current gaming addiction is with Crusader Kings (got no time to play anything else, anyway) and I find it pretty fun too, especially with the newest patch. But it ain't what most people would call fun, no sir.

Next addiction: EU2 (I am getting it in the next few days, so I can import my CK games and continue up to the industrial revolution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

Hopefully, RTW will make it to my addictive and fun list as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Fragony]

If you say adictive and fun you say Viewtifull Joe There is absolutely no way I will ever get tired of this game, beating up stuff is just SO MUCH FUN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] (Fragony @ June 19 2004,10:01)]If you say adictive and fun you say Viewtifull Joe There is absolutely no way I will ever get tired of this game, beating up stuff is just SO MUCH FUN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
HENSHIN-A-GO-GO BABY

good game.

[Basileus]

ive played alot of game during my years and ive had alot of fun with alot of games but i rarely get addictive with em i usualy get bored quick but not with 4 games, those are civ2 mtw championship manager and nwn, ive spent alot of time ont hose and i did find the them both fun and addictive untill i got bored with em http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

im preety sure i´ll love rtw even if it will have somethings i wont like, play it for hours and enjoy it 100%

[econ21]

I've persisted a little longer with Civilisation 2 - got to the stage on Emperor where my spaceship launched but was due to arrive 2 years after the first AI one and so I admitted defeat I don't recall ever gotting that far in the game before (tended to burn out before that stage) and so I did not have a clue about how you build a space craft. But I think I understand the addictiveness a little better - the AI and the variety that posters have noted above.

One fun aspect of Civ2's addictiveness is that the AI is so competitive - in the long game I just finished, two AI factions were constantly attacking my turtling continent by sea, land and air throughout the modern age. I endured, but took a lot of buffeting. The AI keeping pace with me so far into the game is pretty impressive - compared to say TW or most other games. Particularly given the staggering complexity of the game and possible strategies. Racing for the Wonders, trying to keep up ahead in tech and in the military etc etc. I can't think of other strategy games that are as well balanced - maybe just Imperialism2 and Panzer General2. [Sure, it cheats with building advantages etc but to honest, I wish TW cheated more if that is what it takes to get a competitive solo game.] It still isn't my really cup of tea but I must confess Civ2 is one of the most impressively designed computer games I've seen.

But I am not sure the fun factor justifies the addiction, not when you find yourself deciding it is time to go to bed and notice that it is daylight outside http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[The_678]

I've recently had a simlilar experiance with a game. It was Lineage 2

I downloaded the beta, tried it out and liked it. For the first few days it was really fun but got less fun realy quickly. Somehow I still played the game for another 2 months every spare moment I had. The strange thing is that the game is soooo boring, yet it is very very addicting at the same time. I had to cut myself off cold turkey or I would have kept wasting my time and money on this game for quite a while if i hadn't. I just gave all my shit away so i wouldn't be tempted to continue playing the game.

[Lehesu]

After playing Alpha Centauri, I cannot go back to any of the Civ games. AC is fun, deep, and addictive.

[alman9898]

I DLed of a demo of Civ3 and didnt like it. As for MTW, I was addicted to it, but now I play NTW more. I might get Victoria though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[RisingSun]

Indeed, AC puts Civilization to shame. It spoiled Civ III for me. I bought it expecting AC on Earth with Romans, instead I get an experience nowhere near as deep and fun.

[soibean]

Now that you have talked about it and I thought about it... you are kind of right about civ 3 being more addictive than fun. Although I really did enjoy it, I can think of games that are more fun that I played for shorter amounts of time than I did with civ 3. Like it was stated above, the whole just 1 more turn did keep me going, and does for MTW as well.
I just enjoyed the game because I like the city building aspect and the variety of units for each civilization... I probably will buy civ 4 if it comes out and I plan on checking out Immortal Cities: Children of the Nile, which is another city building game

[solypsist]

never finished a civ game without using a trainer

the very definition of addictive and not fun

[Cazbol]

The most addictive games I remember are MTW, Counterstrike, Civilization 2 and The Manager (football management on the spectrum). I found them all a lot of fun.

I think the reason that Civ 3 is less addictive than Civ 2 is that MTW has somewhat spoiled these games for me by being such a kick arse game itself. Strangely, I really didn't find STW addictive despite being so outrageously addicted to MTW.

It helps in making games addictive to have elements of chance that arouse people's expectations but give an uncertain reward. It's the same aspect that keeps gambling addicts glued to the one-armed bandits. Civ makes blatant use of this in the villages and Alpha Centauri does the same with the pods. In football management games the result of the matches are the rewards that entice you.

The rewards can also be seen in a broader sense, like whether your borders hold. Will your ally who has been massing troops along your borders betray you next turn? In Counterstrike one may think Gee, this round went badly. I should be able to do better next round or Hey, that wen't well. Let me see if can't repeat that..

On the other hand a game like MoO 3 isn't very addictive. Probably because it has a hard time arousing any expectations, so there isn't as much reason stick around and see how things turn out.

[Efrem Da King]

Hmm



I couldn't stand Civ 2. Awful game.

Civ 3 I love, AC I love even more.


I gave up on MTW a looooong time ago.

[nightcrawlerblue]

Quote[/b] (solypsist @ June 21 2004,00:28)]never finished a civ game without using a trainer

the very definition of addictive and not fun
Never?

You poor man...

[Lehesu]

Quick question on SMAC. In the faction editor, is it possible to switch the portrait away from Yang? Also, are there any custom portraits included or can I import them?

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ June 18 2004,06:22)]MTW is SO much better yet strangely not nearly so addictive.
i find MTW to be addictive but NOT FUN

i suppose it's just addictive because i always wanna bugger up the comp AI who irks me by doing unfair, annoying things contantly. i am addicted to taking more and more turns to strike back. MTW brings out my vengeful spirit, and for that reason it's addictive

i find it to not be fun, however, because in my experiences there are always aggravating, UNFUN things that happen incessantly to me as a player. ie: supposedly eradicated factions magically INSTANTLY teleporting a huge FREE army into my provinces. or having millions of amphibious attacks that i can't even plan for, decimating me every single turn. i could go on and on and on, for days probably - about all the reasons that MTW is NOT FUN.

note: i realize that there are precautions that can be taken to guard against some of the things i've mentioned but that is NOT THE POINT. the point is, me as a MTW player, should not have to do extensive out-of-game research before i can have FUN with the game (but unfortunately, that is the only possible choice). doing such research is even LESS fun than playing MTW - and that's saying quite a lot

[econ21]

I dunno, Navarros - I don't think I've ever played a good game that I did not have to research how it works. When you have to figure out how it works, it means it is complex and thus has the potential to either give you lots of fun stuff and/or give you lots of gameplay options. AI naval invasions and factions reappearances are good, fun features, IMO. There is stuff that bugs me about the AI in MTW, but its pretty decent given the complexity of the game.

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (Lehesu @ June 28 2004,23:13)]Quick question on SMAC. In the faction editor, is it possible to switch the portrait away from Yang? Also, are there any custom portraits included or can I import them?
try apolyton.net for all your civ needs

[Mablung]

Best Civ site IMO is www.civfanatics.com
I got a great game going as the Japs, i have 47 cities and more than double then population and area of any other civ, best tech, army, wealth and happiness. Not to mention i have abundant resources and luxuries I think only 18 of the cities are my own, the reason i have such a great set up (in 500ad) is that Kyoto had 3 cattle in it's radius (settler factory with granary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). I have no discovered electricity and am researching Theory of Evolution.
Adictive - incredibly.
Fun - this game, yes
I have both expansions.

[ShadesPanther]

I found civ 3 addictive for a while. I got annoyed after a while because Even if you are the most powerful. I had nations all around me and then they crushed me with their numbers. Even if I had all of Europe, and most of africa (the Germans had south africa) and andmost of Russia and all of the middle east.
Guess I was just a paper dragon.

The game for me that is addictive and fun is Hearts of Iron. I like how you can be every nation and pretty much do what you like as Germany to a point. eg Invade middle East and then attack Russia from South and West.

[gaijinalways]

I think any game can be addictive and fun for a while. The problem is trying to get games to continue to be interesting and have lots of replay value.

Civ II I find very difficult and I have never managed to win above the 3rd level. Some players I know with Civ II didn't like it as the AI tends to do weird things (like build cities in the middle of yours), but also they found it ridiculously hard.

Personally, I like MTW, STW, Baldur's Gate I and II, Capitalism II, and Tropico.

The shooter games, things like Quake and Doom, I can play, but I get bored pretty quickly if that is all I am playing.A few hours and I'm ready for something else, something with a little more strategy.

For a challege, I like a UbiSoft game about running a company (sorry, forgot the name). On the impossible level it is impossible, it seems, as no one has ever reported being able to win on that level.

[nightcrawlerblue]

Hmmm. Did ubisoft make big biz tycoon? Could that be it? Could be Gadget Tycoon. I'm not sure if ubisoft made that though. I'll go see if I can find out which game you're talking about.

EDIT: couldn't find it on the Ubisoft site. :/

[English assassin]

Phew. I never thought of it as addictive before but spending hours and hours playing Civ and not actually enjoying it is absolutely spot on how I felt too. Then after a while I actually felt bored playing it and that was better because it meant I could make myself stop. Now I've hidden the discs...