View Full Version : How to use Horse Archers
How to use Horse Archers
The text before you is a short guide on how to use one of the most trickiest units in Medieval Total War: the mounted archer. The information in this text has been gathered from these two threads:
-Teach me how to use HA (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=30706)
-Horse Archers (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33007)
The following members have contributed to these threads: Aelwyn, Crash, Doug-Thompson, Fruitfly, Ichi, Katank, mbrasher1, mfberg, Oleander Ardens, PseRamesses and others. I thank them for sharing their wisdom and hope that their combined knowledge will prove useful for countless of players.
Contents
How to use Horse Archers
Hierarchy of Horse Archers
Horse Archer Statistics
Ichi's Guide on How to Kill high valour Kataphraktoi
Useful replays
How to use Horse archers
Tips to start with:
1) Take them of the skirmish mode because the AI probably will do more harm than good. Control them yourself. You might want to leave skirmish mode on if your micro-management skills are not that good, but prepare for some nasty surprises then. Also, skirmish mode will be turned off if you order the HA to attack with alt-click or if they are caught by enemy units. Do not forget to switch it on again.
2) Start small. Using HA requires serious micro-managing and you don’t want to overload yourself so use one team of two or three units at most. Do not be afraid of the pause key. This may not be realistic but you need to compensate for the AI’s stupidity. A number of HA are also impetuous so you need to keep an eye on them. If you use multiple teams of HA, you will have to use pause key since it’s almost impossible to micro-manage them all.
3) Formation is a moot point. Open formations are cumbersome but allow for more freedom of movement. Deeper close formations are compact and can turn more easily which is important if you have skirmished near the edge of the map. Thinner close formations (2 ranks) do not get an accuracy penalty and can make a 180 degrees turn faster. You can also use wedge to turn fast and then switch back to close again.
4) Most HA have very poor morale, so build them or retrain them in a province with morale upgrades. The second most important upgrade is armour.
To learn how to use HA, you can start a campaign as Hungary. The Early campaign gives you many spearmen and peasants to use as target practice.
Correct use of Horse Archers
1) Use multiple ones. Use one to draw the enemy and then run them past other HA, which are sitting still. The enemy takes a while to switch to chasing the static ones that are closer in which case your baiting and shooting HAs switch roles. After a bunch of flybys, their units will be run ragged and shot to bits.
2) Isolate units by drawing them away and then attempt to get one HA between that unit and their army. Exhaust them by having them chase your HA all over the map. Eventually, you should get them surrounded by your HAs in which case they charge towards a HA only to have them run away and are shot by the other circling HAs and then try another only to have the same thing happen. See frogbeastegg's unit guide for an example of varangians shot up in this situation.
Finally, if they are isolated, worn out and have lost their formation you can charge in with your HA or other units, or go harass another enemy.
3) Avoid foot archers like a plague. At least don't missile duel them. If forced to fight them, hold down alt to force melee and charge them. Beware of strong melee archers, though.
4) On the other hand, the mere presence of units in the enemies back already gives a morale penalty, so it not always necessary to charge.
5) Avoid enemy light cavalry and pincer movements. This is a good reason to not use skirmish as you would end up skirmishing into your own units and get sandwiched or even into their main battle lines
6) HA make excellent rout-chasers because they are speedy and their low melee capability don’t matter much when the enemy doesn’t fight back.
The essential point about horse archers is NOT the casualties they cause. It is the disruption.
HA are not light cavalry who can do some ranged damage. They are to lure the enemy away, string them out, tire them and throw them into confusion. Melee fighting should be used only as a last resort, with a few exceptions. If you have to close in, rely on the charge and don’t get stuck in a slugfest. That is not what cavalry, and least of all missile cavalry, is meant for. You can use hold formation, hold position and (sometimes) ctrl + W to disengage easier. Then you can attack again or run away, whatever takes your fancy. But be careful with the low morale-horse archers.
Fruitfly added this specific tactic:
There's generally a lot of unused width on the battle map when you're fighting the AI, so if I've got plenty of HA, I'll group them into two pairs on either flank. One pair sits in front of the enemy, out of range and just off to the side to bait them, while the other pair does a wide arc to get behind them without attracting too much attention. Once they're in place, I'll get one of the pair in front to advance towards their flank and try to lure the end unit or two into attacking by peppering them with arrows.
If you can co-ordinate this approach on both flanks of the enemy (which needs 6-8 units of HA in total to be most effective), then the AI will be uncertain how to split its forces and you'll get a few units randomly breaking away from the main bunch to fight you. Once that happens, your HA are perfectly placed to encircle them and kill them off quickly and efficiently, before returning to repeat the process.
I find it impossible to co-ordinate more than two HA raids like this without using the pause button, but if you're able to skirmish with the enemy from all four sides, you can break up their formation in no time and end up with isolated units scattered across the entire map.
A note for the players of Shogun Total War: the tactics described in this guide also work for the two horse archer units in Shogun. In Shogun there is not such a pressing need to get behind the enemy because units do not have a shield modifier. However, the morale penalty still applies.
The Japanese Cavalry Archer has a strong charge and a good morale, but its melee capabilities are unimpressive and it isn't faster than Japanese Heavy Cavalry. Mongol Light Cavalry is speedier, more powerful, has a better morale and a good charge too.
Hierarchy of Horse Archers by Doug-Thompson and Katank
Strong horse archers
1) Russian Boyars — The best unit in this category. So good, it's scary: they are heavily armoured can take equal valour Kataphraktoi in melee. If the unit is a general, it can be used to pepper enemy from behind your lines. Very costly: 550 to buy, 105 to keep, requires armourer's guild and horse breeder's guild, but well worth it.
Speed: Normal for cavalry.
2) Turkish Sipahi of the Porte — Very good in combat, but difficult to obtain. Also, more mass in the unit would be nice. If this unit is a general, use as support fire. Requires a master bowyer and a master horsebreeder.
Available only in late. Speed: Normal.
3) Steppe Heavy Cavalry — The best missile cavalry unit you get in a regular playable faction. Heavily armored and competent in melee, and can win a missile fight with foot archers under the right circumstances. Available in Muscovy, Chernigov, Ryazan, Volga-Bulgaria, Kiev, Pereyaslavl and Khazar to all factions.
Requires armourer's guild and horse breeder's guild. Speed: Normal.
4) Egyptian Mameluk Horse Archers — This unit is above of the Faris, but only because a valour bonus is available in the Sinai. Build this unit there. If you get some that aren't from there from a Jihad, for example, retrain them there.
Requirments: bowyer's guild and horse breeder's guild. Speed: Normal.
5) Byzantine Cavalry — I have to put this one also above the Faris because this unit has good melee, which is important if they get caught. Faris have a better charge. The unit is disciplined too, which is very helpful in the hit-and-run, independent role of the HA. It does have a slightly higher upkeep cost than the Faris.
Requires a horsebreeder, a swordsmith's workshop and a bowyer's workshop. Speed: Normal.
6) Faris — HA with a good charge but less-than-outstanding melee. Think of them as Armenian cavalry with bows. The lower melee value hurts them a bit in chasing routers, too. If you're an Almohad train them in a province with an armourer and a weaponsmith to boost their melee. Available to the Egyptians and the Almohads.
Requirments: same as Byzantine Cavalry. Speed: Normal.
Fast horse archers
1) Hungarian Szekely — The best HA unit that you can get early. Low building requirements (horse breeder) compared to other good HA. Decent morale, good melee (equal to faris) and fast, fast, fast. The combination of speed and melee makes them the best routed unit-chasers in the game.
Speed: FAST.
2) Golden Horde Horse Archers — Not available unless you mod the game or bribe them. However, bribery can get you a very worthwhile number of them if the Horde goes rebel. They have ridiculously low upkeep and are slightly weaker but also faster than mameluke horse archers. Even without much valour, they're disciplined and first-rate rout-chasers.
Speed: FAST.
3) Turkish Turcoman Horse — This unit needs retraining in a province with a ribat ASAP to boost their morale. After that, they're OK as long as they're not in a melee. Watch out for their impetuousness. They can chase routers well enough. If they aren't from Tripoli, which gets a valour bonus, retrain them there.
Requires a horse breeder. Speed: FAST.
4) Turcopoles — Well, at least they're better than vanilla HA. Be sure to get the valour bonus from Antioch, if possible. Only HA available to Catholic factions, in Antioch, Edessa, Syria and Tripoli. The HRE gets them at a discount.
Requires a horse breeder. Speed: FAST.
5) Generic HA — Replace them with something better at the first opportunity. Their morale stinks and they rout if they're touched. Great for taking over early rebel provinces, though. They shoot up peasants and spears wonderfully. They can chase routers but aren't very good at it. Available to Byzantium, Turkey, Hungary and Russia/Novgorod.
Requirements: horse farmer. Speed: FAST
Special category (no ranking)
Jinettes — These units should be used in pairs or to shoot at units pinned by other units. Use one Jinette to melee or lure, one to kill if there are no other pinning units around. Get in close and hit with those javelins. Javelins are armour piercing, so they are deadly to the Catholic forces, including royal bodyguards. You don't have to be afraid of a fight. Jinettes are also excellent melee cavalry for the price and great rout-chasers. One of the best affordable all-round cavalry units. TAKE THEM OFF THE SKIRMISH MODE
Available to all Catholic factions and Russia/Novgorod in Navarre, Aragon, Leon, Castile, Valencia, Cordoba and Granaga. Requires: horse breeder. Speed: FAST.
Mounted Crossbowmen — I don't like this unit as much as many other players. Their rate of fire is too slow for hit-and-run horse archer skirmishing. However, they can be devastating to a bodyguard unit stuck in melee with something else, especially if the mounted crossbowmen get around to the back. You can also use them as flankers and rout-chasers, but their melee ability isn’t very impressive. They are also impetuous, so take care. One of the few anti-armour units available early with low tech requirements, and the only mounted archer in the VI campaign. Available to the HRE, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Russia/Novgorod and the Picts (VI).
Requires: horse breeder. Speed: FAST.
Almohad Berber Camels — Anti-cavalry: think of them as a slow unit that doesn't have to worry about being charged by light cavalry. Get the valour bonus in Morocco and beware of foot archers. The big camels are vulnerable and they can't escape as quickly. Almohad only, in Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia and Cyrenacia, and requirements are a bit steep: you need a bowyer's workshop.
Speed: SLOW.
Horse Archers Statistics
Name......................Cost (upkeep)*...Speed**...Bonus***..Armor...Morale.....Ammo
Berber Camels............300 (30).........9/14/16.....2/0/0..............2.........0.............28
Boyar..........................550 (105).......9/20/22.....4/3/5..............5.........6.............28
Byz Cav.......................400 (85).........9/20/22.....2/3/3.............4.........4.............28
Faris............................375 (70).........9/20/22.....4/3/1.............3.........4.............28
Golden Horde HA.........375 (30).........9/24/26.....2/3/1.............3.........4.............28
Horse Archers..............250 (40).........9/24/26.....2/-1/0............2........-1.............28
Jinetes.........................250 (50).........9/24/26.....2/2/2.............3.........2..............4
Mamluk HA...................375 (70).........9/20/22.....2/3/1.............3.........4.............28
Mounted Xbows..........300 (50).........9/24/26......2/0/2.............3.........2.............28
Pict Mtd Xbows............300 (35).........9/24/26.....2/0/2..............3.........2.............28
Sipahi of the Porte......500 (53).........9/20/22......4/3/6.............7.........6.............28
Steppe Heavy Cav.......450 (45)........9/20/22......2/3/4.............5..........4............28
Szekely.......................375 (50).........9/24/26......4/3/1.............3..........4............28
Turcoman HA...............300 (40)..........9/24/26.....2/1/0.............2.........-1............28
Turcopole....................300 (40)..........9/24/26.....2/-1/1............3..........0............28
* # ##At normal unit size
** # Walk/Run/Charge
*** Charge/Melee/Defence
(Courtesy of Ichi-san)
Ichi's Guide on How to Kill high valour Kataphraktoi
In every game there comes a time when I find myself fighting the Byzantines and their high valour Kataphraktoi generals. These guys are tough, and can easily handle low valor spears, swords and other cavalry.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichijinkats.jpg
Here I have told a unit of Jinetes to melee with a Kataphraktoi unit, and then immediately pulled that unit back. When the Kataphraktoi chased, I surrounded it with 3 other Jinetes and made very quick work. This exploits the Kataphraktoi's one weakness, which is their slow speed. #This screenshot is from the end of the game, when all that was left was the Byzantine general.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/ichiturcokats.jpg
Here I have done essentially the same thing, but with Turcoman Horse Archers. The Turcomen are set on skirmish (as were the Jinetes) so not a lot of micromanagement.
Elsewhere on the field at this time my other 12 units where in standard formation (missiles in front, infantry to the rear, cavalry on the flanks) holding a small knoll against the other Byz units.
(Link to the original thread: How to kill high valor Kataphraktoi without getting mauled (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31627))
Useful replays
SeljukSinan's Turkish Cavalry Tactics (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/TurkCavalryTacticsSP.zip)
This Winzip archive contains three replays made by SeljukSinan. In these replays he show some basic horse archer tactics. Turcoman Skirmish shows how a few Turkish HA trow a Byzantine army into confusion and negate its terrain advantage. Isolate gives an example of how a powerful army can be torn into pieces. Encirclement shows a back-attack by three Turcoman horse.
Warning: these are MTW replays and do not work on VI. It is possible to make them accessible with VI by changing their extension from '.mrp' to '.vrp' but when attempting this I experienced some trouble with MTW and with Windows XP. Try this at your own risk.
If you know other replays which show how to use horse archers and would like to share these, you can leave a message in this thread so I can put it here and other players can benefit from it.
This is the summary of the horse archers threads. If somebody feels that something has been left out, feel free to point it out, but remember this is a summary, so keep it short.
I would be very much obliged if somebody could give me the links to a few educative replays, or give me specific tactics for jinettes / mounted crossbowmen.
Blodrast
06-16-2004, 22:26
cool. thanks for putting it all together. and kudos to the original authors as well, ofc.
Doug-Thompson
06-16-2004, 23:12
Excellent, Ludens. Boils down almost 200 posts on those other threads into something useful. It's all there, too. Good job.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
octavian
06-16-2004, 23:23
all i can do is say what doug said, excellent job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
very nice job. I must say that I would personally put GH HA and Faris above Mamluk HA but that's about it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Doug-Thompson
06-17-2004, 14:44
I'd agree with you, katank, if that valor bonus wasn't available in the Sinai.
true enough so Faris is debatable. but GH HAs still are faster and to me, speed is highest thing for HAs provided they have decent morale.
otherwise, without valor, statistically, GH HAs and mamluks are equal.
after all, HAs depend upon mobility and you want something that could outrun heavy cav so you don't even have to test your other stats ie. melee.
the fact that you need to stop to shoot means that fast is almost a requirement when you are fighting enemy cav with HAs.
Doug-Thompson
06-17-2004, 16:41
Ah, but Mameluke HA have a shield.
GH-HA are definitely faster, though. That is a big advantage.
All in all, I think the better melee of the Mamelukes makes them a more versatile unit than then GH-HA, which is more of a pure HA.
true.
I personally like pure HAs and would put szeks above Steppe Heavies for same reason.
just my 2 cents. prefer speed to power although I do have a weakness for boyars.
after seeing them take down a katank unit in melee, I'm a convert. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
Doug-Thompson
06-17-2004, 17:08
For all practical game-playing purposes, Szekelys are the best HA. The only reason they are not on the top in my list is because the proving ground performance of the other units is better.
Well, Ottoman Sipahi aren't even available until the Late Era. Boyars ought to be better -- two of them cost as much as three Szekely and their maintenance cost is twice as high per unit, if memory serves. The building requirements are also a lot steeper.
Steppe heavies are also more expensive than Szekely, although their maintenance cost is slightly less. However, building requirements are also high, and they can only be built in provinces that are going to be overrun by the Golden Horde unless you base your whole strategy about seizing, fortifying and defending Khazan.
well steppe heavies aren't bad. and are easier than boyars.
I always fortify khazar and kiev and fight the horde since it's fun
I like 16 szeks running around but only the Huns can access them.
Katank, I have already made clear that this list was just one man's preference. It is obvious that Doug-Thompson prefers horse archers that are good at melee to the faster types. Anyone who thinks differently can easily spot from his list what kind of HA he or she should aim for.
If you do think that this list is no good, post your own one with explanation, and I might add it. I am sorry, but I cannot do anything with the loose remarks you posted here.
octavian
06-17-2004, 18:01
Ludens, i dont think this was a criticism of your work rather, two players disscussing the merits of different HA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif
ok ludens: my preferences:
much in the spirit of Lady Froggy's light cav discussion, I find it useful to treat HAs as different categories.
Strong and powerful (can be hybrid medium or heavy cav with 20/22 normal cav speed):
1) Russian Boyars — Best unit in this category. can take equal valor katanks in melee and heavily armored. Completely over powered in early but gets weaker relatively as time goes on. good as general to pepper enemy from behind lines. Very costly with 550 which is more than most cav and upkeep of 105 equal to feudals. well worth it though.
2) Steppe Heavy Cavalry — The best missile cavalry unit you get for any faction. Heavily armored and competent in melee, can be fine medium cav and armor makes ok for missile dueling although it's a bit of a waste.
3) Turkish Sipahi of the Porte — awesome in combat but available only to Turks in Late with fairly high build reqs. THe numbers in this unit is also a bit underwhelming. If general, use as supporting fire.
5) Egyptian Mameluke Cavalry — Equal stats as Faris except for 2 less chage but with valor bonus from Sinai, that is made up and more. Only available from High onwards though.
6) Faris — HA with a good charge and decent attack but slightly lacking in defence. Armor them up and add some weapons if Almos and can conquer Iberia.
6) Byz Cavalry — better defence than faris. disciplined and a must have for the Byz with nice attack. Huge upgrade over vanilla HAs. However, their support of 85 is higher than faris and mamluks which have 70 and cost wise, I rate them as lower.
Fast (pure HAs often melee is less strong but makes up for it in mobility with fast cav speed of 24/26):
1) Hungarian Szekely — Speedy demons. equal to faris except for higher speeds. best pure HAs IMO. 4 morale and elite is great. Unfortunately, it's uncontrolled but that's not too bad. Build reqs are scandalously low at only a horse breeder. Use them all you can.
2) Golden Horde Horse Archers — Same stats as Mamluks except without a shield but makes up for it by faster speed. Can oly be modded or bribed from mongols. Nice in combination with assasinate Khan trick.
3) Turkish Turcoman Horse — Worst dedicated HA. Have -1 morale just as vanilla ones. At least you have valor bonus in Tripoli and try and get them a mosque and ribat ASAP before worrying about armor. Fast though and can harass the Byz well. Turk's best bet against Byz tanks in early.
4) Turcopoles — Better than Vanilla at least. valor bonus in Antioch and discount for HRE. redeeming quality is that it's the only HAs available to many catholic facitons except for Steppe Heavies and Crusader provinces are GAs anyhow. can help as some of the first troops up there to aid in defence and works in the desert fine due to low armor and complements your crusader troops.
5) Generic HA — horrible due to junk morale and bad melee but best you got for a few years. kill rebel peasants and spears and drag some low level infantry across the field or just to add bullk to your mobila missile cav force if you can't field many dedicated HAs.
Special categories (no ranking)
Jinettes — killer melee light cav. Iberia should be taken if Catholic just for those boys in addition to farming and iron. AP ability makes assasination of royals a distinct possibility. using them in pairs is essential. Other HAs would benefit form squads but this especially due to very short range. fast and good attacker which means good router catcher too.
Mounted Crossbowmen — available only to Germans, Italians, Poles, Huns, and Russians. Low req early skirmisher. AP is its best point and two or three cna kill impetuous RKs easily using their bolts. I call them battlefield assasins since they are so effective. After melee closes, use them to charge flanks and later chase routers. they have melee not as good as jinettes but still far better than vanill HAs. fastest for chasing routers.
Berber Camels — Goofy unit. unique in being anticav HA. they can easily demolish light cav. they can shoot but can't get away from archers as easily. Heavy cav can also be surprised although this unit will lose. Ideal as early counter to jinettes for the Almos. Available to all Muslims and bonus in morrocco. build req a bit steep for the efficiency.
Great work Katank and Ludens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif
Great work, Katank.
I am a bit in two minds about what to do with it. I can just add it, but it seems rather silly if you have two rankings of best HAs. Perhaps I could merge both lists, using Katanks classification and the comments of you both.
Do you agree with that, Katank and Doug-Thompson?
Doug-Thompson
06-17-2004, 23:57
Quote[/b] ]Perhaps I could merge both lists, using Katanks classification and the comments of you both.
Oh yeah. That suits me. Katank and I aren't having an argument, just a debate. A rather pleasant one at that.
I like the idea of following froggy's lead and having strong and slow or light and fast categories. That gives newcomers a lot more detail than my simple top-10 type of list.
I'd almost argue that the Szekely transcend the categories. They're fast AND strong.
Also, all Muslim factions can make Bedouin camels but I think only Almos can make Berbers.
I'll look up the building requirements of each type of HA. That ought to be included on the list because some of the requirements are quite steep.
yeah. I like the idea.
personally, Doug and I have just been having a healthy discussion on the nature of HAs.
build reqs.
1. boyars-armor guild and horse guild
2. steppe heavy- armor and horse guild
3. siphai of porte master bow and master horse
4. mamluk HA- bow guild and horse guild
5. faris - bow shop, sword shop, horse breeder
6. byz cav - same as faris
7. szek- horse breeder
8. GH HA- not buildable
9. turcoman horse- horse breeder
10. turcopoles - horse breeder
11. vanilla HA -horse farmer
12. jinettes - horse breeder
13. mtd x-bows- horse breeder
14. berber camels - bow shop.
frogbeastegg
06-18-2004, 09:07
Bump. Can someone send this over to guide please?
mercian billman
06-18-2004, 10:32
Sezkely are great units in MP. Their almost equal to FK in head on combat and their speed gets them out of a nasty situation. I like to use three Szekely, which allows me to keep one in reserve or Pav rush when, my opponent is focusing on the other two.
Boyars are okay but, I don't like them in MP (I haven't used them much) they lack speed, and in a MP game speed is crucial to victory.
Oleander Ardens
06-18-2004, 16:08
Great summary Ludens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Quote[/b] ]1) Hungarian Szekely — Speedy demons. equal to faris except for higher speeds. best pure HAs IMO. 4 morale and elite is great. Unfortunately, it's uncontrolled but that's not too bad. Build reqs are scandalously low at only a horse breeder. Use them all you can.
Could not agree more. Since my first Magyar VI game I love these guys. Definatly OP in SP due to the redicolous reqs and the combo of speed and power. Togheter with Mounted Crossbowmen they will teach the Katanks and Royals a bloody lesson....
You can build them also ASAP in a iron province - this allows them to become even more powerful as you tech up.
Edited the hierarchy. Thanks again, Katank.
Now if somebody could point me to some replays, the guide would be complete. Oh, and is there a difference between the ordinary mounted crossbowmen and the VI (Pictish) mounted crossbowmen?
BTW, Mameluke HA are available in early. Ordinary Mamelukes are restricted to high and late.
Excellent work Ludens.
Note to all MP players Those Szeks I have stationed out there are just fast - not really very strong - just fast - so don't worry about them plowing into the melee or getting behind you - they are weak
ichi
Blodrast
06-18-2004, 19:40
i have Sinan's replays from his posts Learning how to use HA's. Where do you want me to put it/send it (if you're interested of course) ?
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ June 18 2004,10:39)]Oh, and is there a difference between the ordinary mounted crossbowmen and the VI (Pictish) mounted crossbowmen?
Pictish mtd x-bows are the only mounted missiles in Viking era (making you as the picts unstoppable). Other than this they are identical to mtd x-bows.
mfberg
Blodrast
Quote[/b] (Blodrast @ June 18 2004,20:40)]i have Sinan's replays from his posts Learning how to use HA's. Where do you want me to put it/send it (if you're interested of course) ?
Off course I am interested in the replays of an expert. Thank you very much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif .
Unfortunatly, I do not have hosting space, or know how to host. Is it possible to upload them to the Org?
mfberg, thanks, it has been added.
Ichi, I've added your guide. Thank you too.
And thanks octavian, ah_dut, mercian billman and Oleander Ardens for your compliments as well.
I posted this also a long time ago.
Cavalry Archers @ V0*
Name......................Cost....Speed**...Bonus***....Armor...Honor.....Ammo
Boyar.....................550.....9/20/22......4/3/5..............5...........6.............28..
Byz.Cav.................400.....9/20/22......2/3/3..............4...........4.............28
Camel.Warriors......300....9/14/16......2/0/0..............2...........0.............28.
Faris......................375....9/20/22.......4/3/1..............3...........4.............28
Golden.Horde.HA.....375...9/24/26......2/3/1..........3............4............28
Horse.Archers.......250....9/24/26.........2/-1/0.........2...........-1...........28
Jinetes...................250.....9/24/26......2/2/2..............3...........2..............4
Mamluk.H.A..........375....9/20/22......2/3/1..............3...........4.............28
Mounted.Xbows.....300.....9/24/26.....2/0/2..............3...........2.............28.
Pict.Mtd.Xbows.....300.....9/24/26.....2/0/2..............3............2............28..
Sipahi.of.the.Porte.500....9/20/22......4/3/6..............7............6............28
Steppe.Heavy.Cav..450....9/20/22......2/3/4..............5...........4.............28
Szekely..................375....9/24/26......4/3/1..............3...........4.............28
TurcomanHA.........300....9/24/26......2/1/0..............2..........-1............28
Turcopole..............300....9/24/26......2/-1/1.............3...........0.............28
Speed*.Walk/Run/Charge
Bonus**.Charge/Melee/Defence
All.MTW.VI.w/.patch..
ichi
octavian
06-19-2004, 20:36
Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ June 18 2004,04:07)]Bump. Can someone send this over to guide please?
u got ignored again froggy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (octavian @ June 19 2004,22:36)]
Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ June 18 2004,04:07)]Bump. Can someone send this over to guide please?
u got ignored again froggy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
froggy do you want me to Pm the mods here (done) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
KukriKhan
06-20-2004, 00:51
Sorry I missed your 1st request, fBe.
frogbeastegg
06-20-2004, 10:01
Heh, I'd actually PMed Gregoshi but he's been busy; I forgot you were back KukriKhan, or I'd have sent you a CC. Um, oops? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/geishaembarassed.gif
Added the list, thanks Ichi.
Also added a table of contents and a note about Shogun. From my experience HA in STW and MTW work pretty much the same, except that the units are somewhat more sturdy than a number of their MTW collegues. But I never was proficient with horse archers in STW, so perhaps somebody will not agree with my comment. Feel free to point it out.
And thank you Kukrikhan for moving the topic
Doug-Thompson
06-22-2004, 18:05
Something almost too obvious to mention ...
We've all noted how horse archers should avoid missile duels with foot archers and (usually) charge them instead.
The opposite applies when opposing handgunners and such types, as a rule. Cav archers can fire from range and cause serious casualties to a hand weapon gunpowder units at very light cost to themselves.
Most handgunner-types can't hit a guy on a horse at long range. Makes a point about handgunners, doesn't it?
However, most handgunner-types have decent melee. Mameluke handgunners don't, but that's the only exception.
==================
There are some foot archers you just don't charge unless they're routing or you can attack from behind. Turkish Futuwwas come to mind.
It's always a good idea to check for valor flags on any foot archer unit you want to melee with HA. Even crossbows will give a nasty fight if they have a couple of valor points and you don't have any.
Here's a short list of foot archers that any type of HA should respect:
Almuhavars -- fortunately, these mercenaries are rare.
Futuwwas -- Turks only.
Golden Horde Warriors -- Faris, for example, should win if they are not at a valor disadvantage, but it will be costly.
Christian Handgunners -- Faris with equal valor should win in a tough fight.
Muslim Hashishin -- Also rare.
Janissary Infantry -- Turkish only.
Nizari -- Egyptian only.
Sherwood Foresters -- Rare.
Blodrast
06-22-2004, 19:20
I have uploaded Sinan's replays in the PBM space (hope nobody gets upset for doing that), since I don't know where else I can put them. You can find them here (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/)
The file name is TurkCavalryTacticsSP.zip
All they are is just 3 replays, I'm afraid. I have no idea if there used to be more of them or what not. Enjoy.
Doug-Thompson
06-22-2004, 23:47
Quote[/b] (ichi @ June 18 2004,13:32)]Excellent work Ludens.
Note to all MP players Those Szeks I have stationed out there are just fast - not really very strong - just fast - so don't worry about them plowing into the melee or getting behind you - they are weak
ichi
All things are relative. Szeks are strong for HA. Their melee would equal or slightly exceed that of Alan Merc Cav, IMO.
Sorry for the tardy reply. I expected the topic tracker to warn me if something happened in this thread, but for some reason it didn't.
Thanks Blodrast, I will try those replays as soon as I get home.
Doug-Thompson, good point indeed, but this is very dependent on valour, upgrades and the type of HA your using. Turcopoles have trouble with everything stronger than vanilla archers, but Szekely will often put up quite a good fight.
Unfortunatly, those replays are MTW replays and not VI replays. Does anyone know how you can watch MTW replays on VI?
BTW, I have asked TosaInu if the replays could stay in the PBM space and he had no objections.
Thank you, TosaInu.
I'm in no way an expert on horse archers, but I just discovered a really easy, no micromanagement way of using mounted crossbows in my current late HRE game.
On defense, I put my entire army way back on a hill or something, and my mounted crossbows as far to the front as possible, in those two forward prongs in your deployment area, se they're close to the enemy and a bit to the side. Just one unit on each side, preferably on a hill.
Since I want no MM, I leave them on skirmish.
I target the nearest enemy unit, and then I can basically just leave them alone. Most of the time, the enemy is more focused on my main force in the distance, and simply ignores my unit. Sometimes it sends a unit after it, and my
unit runs away, shooting at it occasionally if the AI sends infantry.
I've had battles where my mounted crossbows decimated a general's bodyguard, I've had battles where the AI sent two big infantry units after it, which my unit kept busy while slowly decimating them, although I've also had battles got into an archery duel, which is not so good, and battles where the AI sent a horse archer of his own after mine, keeping two equivalant units out of the battle. Those are situations where you need to interfere and set your horse archers to do something else, but in many cases, this tactic makes horse archers useful without having to put a lot of effort into it. And even if they die, as long as they sufficiently disrupt the opponent's attack, the sacrifice may be worth it.
mcv.
The_Emperor
06-28-2004, 11:26
For me Horse archers fill a very important role in an army, to harass and decimate the enemy before the main battle begins (or even during the main battle).
I always hire Mercenary szekely, turcoman horse and other solid horse archer units when playing a Western faction such as the English.
The best tactic I find is to target the light cavalry first and to thin them out, since fast light Cavalry stand the best chance of catching your Horse archers. This way you ensure that you maintain an advantage in speed and mobility.
Another extension of this tactic is that it is to lure them out of position...
If you have heavier cav nearby it is possible to bait the enemy cavalry with your horse archers and get them to pursue you into a waiting trap.
Other good tagets for Horse archers include, Camels (very susceptable to arrowfire, and a good way of defeating them in the desert), Generals (to soften him up ready to rout him), and all infantry (expect archers of course).
And lastly even when they have ran out of ammo, good horse archer style units are still good for one last task...
Mopping up the routing enemy infantry and chasing them off the map. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_charge.gif
Doug-Thompson
06-28-2004, 22:54
Quote[/b] (mcv @ June 27 2004,19:58)]On defense, I put my entire army way back on a hill or something, and my mounted crossbows as far to the front as possible, in those two forward prongs in your deployment area, se they're close to the enemy and a bit to the side. Just one unit on each side, preferably on a hill.
Absolutely. Putting units far forward is the key to good use of HA. That way, the enemy just about has to march into a trap to get to your main army, and gets shot up all the way there.
Sometimes, you get a nasty surprise and get chased all the way back to your lines by Royal Knights. Even in that worst case scenario, though, the knights are tired. HA, as a rule, don't get tired as quickly.
In the best case, the curtain lifts and you are in easy charging distance of a group of archers or something and can wipe them out before they can get off more than a volley or two.
Blodrast
06-28-2004, 23:06
Quote[/b] (Ludens @ June 25 2004,11:57)]Unfortunatly, those replays are MTW replays and not VI replays. Does anyone know how you can watch MTW replays on VI?
BTW, I have asked TosaInu if the replays could stay in the PBM space and he had no objections.
Thank you, TosaInu.
heh, that's ok. just rename the files to .vrp instead of the current extension .mrp. It worked for me, although it did get stuck a couple of times, and I had to restart the game, but other than that, they worked fine after renaming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Blodrast, I just tried that. It worked, although MTW did lock-up at one point. Also, Windows is giving damage reports. Everything seems to be funtioning all right, though.
EDIT: added extension change trick + a disclaimer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ June 28 2004,05:26)]For me Horse archers fill a very important role in an army, to harass and decimate the enemy before the main battle begins (or even during the main battle).
Currently playing Turks, and now I'm really starting to see how amazing horse archers are. When defending, I put my main army far back on a hill, and my horse archers to the front, in order to harass the enemy while he walks up to my main army.
Switching beteen simple shooting and the occasional charge with my Siraphi of the Porte (and even those light, fast Turcomans can charge weak unit if needed), I just managed to almost wipe out an English crusade with just the horse archers. At least it got seriously disrupted, so bits and pieces arrived piecemeal in range of my main army.
My only mistake was not paying enough attention to my Siraphis. At some point one got trapped between English peasants and spearmen, and crusader knights were approaching fast. I managed to save the prince, but most of the unit was gone.
mcv.
Spartiate
07-01-2004, 20:02
My cheap affordable favourite HA unit has to be the Turcopoles For their incredible speed.Okay so you have to keep an eye on them constantly because if they get caught by anything and i mean anything they are just so much horse meat.In general though they seem to be able to pepper the approaching enemy and wait until they are much closer before wheeling away to reach a safe position and start all over again than other horse archers.My favourite are still the Boyars but the price puts me off.I have a nice little mod that allows the Sipahi of the porte to be trained in 60 men to a unit size and a little bit earlier in the game.Love using them.
that's a bit cheesy m8, 60 man siphai's are waaaaaaaaaaaay OP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
60 men siphai of the porte? by earlier I assume high? tha's insane
they no can easily trump boyars.
I lie turcopoles fine as often they are the only HAs catholics like English or French can build (excluding specialized ones like jinettes)
Updated Ichi's table with the upkeep of various HA. Also changed 'camel warriors' into 'Berber camels'.
I guess the guide is finished now.
Doug-Thompson
07-07-2004, 15:34
I looked at Ichi's table in the finished guide. I don't think I ever realized how cheap Golden Horde Horse Archers are to maintain.
That cost is dirt cheap for a HA. Shame you can't replace losses, though.
=============
Also note that mercenary Steppe heavies have a maintenance cost only slightly higher than Byz Cav you own.
I check my inns every turn, looking for three things: powerful siege weapons, longbows and Steppe Heavy Cavalry.
Oleander Ardens
07-08-2004, 15:27
Same goes for the GHW - hilarious even if they woudn't be one of the best ranged troops out there
AO
RollingWave
07-11-2004, 07:47
Well against the AI since most of them are too dumb to fight ur charging horse archer until ur acturally hitting them.... charging into futuwwa and nizari is usually quiet good since they have horrible defense and waiting even a split second or 2 and take the full charge while trying to skrimish will usually destroy most of the group before they even start fighting..... personally turcoman foots are also not worth charging into... they have very high defense value... you will not take much loss from them and will probably beat them... but it'll take you a while risking being flanked/mobbed
that's a good point but pull out immediately as those archers have huge attacks and will eat your HAs quickly so charge and pull out.
Doug-Thompson
07-22-2004, 16:50
I've started to use the ALT button when micro-managing HA.
As everybody knows, holding down the ALT button while issuing a movement command means that the unit will move, then turn to face the same direction it was facing when you started.
So, if you are micro-managing some HA and enemy units start getting uncomfortably close, find some safe spot to run too and hold down the ALT button when you double-click that spot.
Your HA will run back and then turn back around to face the enemy. Then the HA will start firing by themselves as soon as something comes within range. It's a small thing, but it does save a little of the intense micromanagement you have to fool with to use these units.
========
By the way, my estimation of Golden Horde HA has risen greatly since I fully realized just how cheap they are to maintain.
Even vanilla HA cost 1 florin per man in upkeep. GH-HA cost less than that and are one of the best HA out there.
I bribe the fool out of those suckers now. I'm in a game where I assassinated the khan with Syrian assassins, bribed a bunch of his former troops and left a lot of the Russians provinces in rebellion. A few turns later, the Horde will re-emerge. I'll kill the khan, bribe a bunch of his former troops and leave a lot of Russian provinces in rebellion. Rinse and repeat.
wow, really? I'd assasinate the khan then.
my emissaries will go nuts
doug, i tried that, i went bankrupt, i bribed a total of about 15,000 horde troops dismissing all but the HA's. that still left me with 5,000 yes 50000 Ha to maintain, i blitzed all afterwards, but just saying what do i do with 15,000 horde troops. Katank knows the answer blitz the world https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]If you gave me an army that size i'd show you and empire
Doug-Thompson
07-22-2004, 19:48
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 22 2004,13:00)]doug, i tried that, i went bankrupt, i bribed a total of about 15,000 horde troops dismissing all but the HA's. that still left me with 5,000 yes 50000 Ha to maintain,
Too much of a good thing, sounds like.
Perhaps I did leave the impression that I'm going to bribe everyone that comes my way. Not so; I'm going to bribe a bunch and, when I need replacements for these troops that I can't build myself, I'm going to kill the khan again, let them go rebel and bribe some
more.
There are serious drawbacks. There's the low loyalty of bribed units, for instance.
=========
As for upkeep cost, ALL Golden Horde-only troops are a serious bargain.
Obviously, bribes cost a lot of money. It is perfectly possible to bribe units and get them killed before you recoup your bribe. However, people ought to know the figures and then decide for themselves.
Golden Horde Warriors have a maintenance cost of 22 florins for a 60-man unit. That works out to the same florin-per-man upkeep cost as PEASANTS for a ranged, disciplined unit that could also probably beat militia sergeants a straight-up melee fight.
Mongol heavy cavalry have the same support cost as an equal number of Jinettes. This unit can beat Pronoiai Allagion pretty handily.
Those GH-HA have the same upkeep costs as Bulgar Brigands, Genoese sailors or Turcomon foot.
that is pretty sweet.
I might assasinate the khan then.
I don't know about the mongols being that buff now.
I think I built my current Turkish empire to be godly.
I have all lands betwen Greece, Bulgaria, Kiev, Lithuania, Navarre, and Aragon.
I have citadels or better in every province in Khazar and all provinces within two moves away.
jannisary production in Const. and soon in Bulgaria and Egypt.
futtuwwa and turcoman production everywhere as well as entire siege trains of catpults in provinces next to khazar.
khazar also has culv towers from modding.
I think my bets are on the Turks. did I mention 2.7 million in the bank? I think I might switch to GH when they arrive and see if I can beat the Turks. likely to have half my guys bribed away from me.
2.7 million florins how da heck do you get that much, before the horde, the best i've done is 5 or 6 million but that's by about 1350, when i draw most games to a close, seriously how do you get that much money?
lonewolf371
07-23-2004, 07:24
He's close to the crusader provinces (Antioch and Tripoli), both of them have ridiculously high incomes alone from farming and even better with trade lanes. I'm pretty sure you can get both of them up to a higher maximum yearly income than Venice, Flanders, or Constantinople. Not to mention the Anatolian provinces have fairly decent income as well.
actually I had 3.3 when the horde arrived.
I had all of the baltic states in addition Const, Tripoli, and Antioch as well as Egypt
Cordoba and Portugal were also hauling in decent cash. Ireland was good too but less for trade than for lowering naval costs.
I also got a few early ransoms so I got to build economy almost nonstop.
all my trade provinces are more or less at master merchant now. I also have janny production coming online and tons of fortresses and citadels.
it's amazing how I cannot seem to blow all that cash.
my revenue is something like 68k.
early, ransoms i see i got a touch stuck which explains why i only had about 2 mill when the horde arrived, i put a master blacksmith in the eternal city (mod) so was pumping out, gold armour, gold attack JHI's to meet the horde head on, git about 35k per year at the mo, got a small trade war with the ventians, jihad spam should destroy them however https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I also jihad spammed.
note: they are better than actually building JHI costwise.
I got 4 JHI in one of the markers and usually at least 1 per marker.
JHI 725, jihad 500. you do the math. even if I disband everything else, I still come out ahead.
I destroyed the horde thus but my upkeep cost due to so many jihads shot up from around 10k to something like 28k per year.
I can do horde simulations now except it's all green hell horsies
Updated the links for the new forum. Thank you frogbeastegg and TosaInu.
KhaderKhan
10-13-2005, 16:18
Of all the Turkish HA the SoP have to be the most unrealistic and impractical.
They have a unit 20 and their stats are: 5 5 5 7.
1) Am absolutly certain that the Turks did know how to fight in the saddle.
2) A 7 armour is hardly practical in the desert and the planes is it?
So to make them more realistic I modified the following:
1) Change their numbers to 30.
2) Change the stats from 5 5 5 7 to 7 6 5 5.
3) To reflect the changes made I notched up their speed slightly below that of Turcoman Horses.
You should see these modified SoP in action! Someone says that they aren't good as Boyars I say they are not only better but one of the best all-round cavalry in the game.
Of all the Turkish HA the SoP have to be the most unrealistic and impractical.
I agree that this unit leaves something to be desired. They are quite good in their own right but handicapped by their small unit size and lack of speed (for a horse archer). As for the historical background, I think that Muslims in general are a bit underpowered. However, this guide deals with the vanilla game so I can't include you new stats.
Dunno how much this helps, but I have a replay in which Turcomen HA flank and weaken the enemy, and Armenian Heavy cav surround isolated units all ending up in one big crush with my units piling into there's from all sides :)
HA Flanking (http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=2779983)
Sorry I don't know how to edit posts.
Was going to say that the outcome of that battle was about 150 of my men dead - and 900 of them dead. So much for Turks always losing tonnes of men in battles.
Sorry I don't know how to edit posts.
Was going to say that the outcome of that battle was about 150 of my men dead - and 900 of them dead. So much for Turks always losing tonnes of men in battles.
Thank you. I can't view it here as I haven't got M:TW installed on this computer, but I will do so next week. Incidentally, the edit button will appear once you are promoted to full member.
Welcome to the Org, ~:wave: .
The problem with horse archer guides is that they usually show a single enemy slow but strong unit surrounded by many horse archers to being pummeled to dust by arrows. This is not use, but abuse - i mean its to easy to use them in those circumstances. Now don;t get me wrong, beginners should start from the easy bits, however Horse Archer use should be explained and showcased in battles that the enemy has some sort of counter and also equal numerical strength, not just when he is tottaly hopeless.
:bow:
The Punish-ed
02-19-2010, 00:41
During my extensive trawling of this site, reading as much as I could, I did notice that the practicalities of Horse Archers are a little vague - I get lots of advice on stylistic approach, but surprisingly little in substance beyond "try and make em draw enemy out of position, surround and wear down, and avoid enemey foot archers". Good advice, yes, but (versus the AI at least) my little archer ponies rarely suceed in anything except for avoiding foot archers.
I found that a chief advantage with them - rarely mentioned in the posts I read - was that due to their Height they make an excellent SECOND row archer - put them behind your archers or infantry two rows thick and long, and even on flat ground they provide extra bite. If they are behind other horses, it might be worth aiming for a higher ground advantage - but on flat ground they make an invaluable replacement for a small hill.
Additionally, I found them my single most useful unit as Eastern Rome versus Spanish Jinettes - since the AI doesnt charge them in like it should - while Byzantine Lancers, Steppe Heavies and Alan Mercs COULD kill em, they'd suffer considerable and more valuable losses to do so.
Charging them at enemy missile unites is actually also a useful tactic, since their skirmish behavoir means even if they'd likely win (like Jinettes) they often flee.
As Eastern Rome, despite having Steppe Heavies and Byzantine Cavalry, I still get plenty of use out of HA; especially in deserts where there are fewer hills and their armour tolerates the heat with little problem.
Ive recently been focussing on the XL mod, which I can highly recommend, but one of the things I noticed was that whenever I went an Empire or Kingdom that DIDNT have basic HA, I REALLY missed them. Especially as Scots - and perhapse to appreciate their usefulness it is worth going someone unable to use em, and see how often you catch yourself saying "horse Archer's would be REALLY good right now".
I have - so far - not got the hang of fire, retreat, fire, retreat, or using 2 HA to isolate anything, possibly because I prefer to advance in one large legionic 'shape' but it does seem like the map isnt really big enough to use them the way they historically played. I did try to use them historically (ride in, do damage, retreat, repeat) - but the unfortunate commander of such hit and run raids - while serving the empire greatly - suffers many many bad traits that ultimately make the tactic unsustainable.
Hope that isnt the useless ramblings of a noob - and that some of it might be of some use to someone, somewhere.
Welcom to the org, enjoy your stay the punish-ed
Horse archer use is best effectuated en-masse. Try using 4-6 of them in one block(arrayed in a single line) and supported by your main army (which should be a brief distance - not too close not too far behind). If your main army is too close you can't skirmish before the main melee - the enemy will engage you quickly. If its too far, the HAs are isolated and so have poorer morale and also tactical opportunities that the HA skirmishing potentially may open (like enemy army being fragmented and engaged at will with favorable match ups and piece meal) will go unused.
As you approach, target with all horse archers enemy missiles one at a time - once a unit you target is below half size, target another and keep at it, until the enemy missiles are worn out to the point that firing back at you makes little to no difference (1/2 to 1/3 for all enemy missles is good enough). Then you can start picking on the really valuable targets: heavy cavalry and melee infantry. At this point the AI will react; he will try to attack you or feign to attack you in trying and stop losses. Your reaction should be tailored to the situation: if the AI move is partial ie one or two melee units you can set the particular HAs that are being chased to skirmish and leave the others where they are. This will draw in the enemy troops to their doom, by arrows and by the outnumbering penalties for morale. If the AI move involves their whole army, you should take all your HAs behind your own main melee line and engage the enemy with them. Sometimes (especially if you outnumber the AI enemy) the breaking up of their line in order to make an attack to the HAs creates an opportunity for you to take them piece meal at will with your own melee units or melee/heavy cav units. This is an invaluable use of the HA that makes the enemy formation break to avoid further missile losses.
During the main melee, the HAs being safe and behind the line opens tremendous opportunities to you: they fire during the main melee wittling enemy morale, they can occasionally flank (when there is no enemy unit to counterflank them) and most impotrantly, they can start chasing every enemy unit that brakes liberating your own melee units to engage other melee pockets. There is nothing better to chase an elite melee unit that still has numbers but is fleeing with HAs making sure that they are on the way out (with lots of prisoners too).
If the main melee is a draw and both armies are broken, then remaining HAs can make all the difference at the end stage that fatigue and so morale are low, even against melee units (not alone obviously in conjuction with your own melee troops remainder). This is especially so if they have arrows left. Now they can really reign suppreme and punish with impunity.
In certain cases you cannot skirmish before the main melee, say when the AI has a melee heavy army composition and goes straight at your melee line. In those cases attempting to skirmish is pointless - just engage the enemy with your own melee line as best you can as fully as its possibly safe to do so (try to engage all their units if possible) - then the HAs can start harrassing by shooting, flanking and meleeing (even briefly) etc. If you play the melee right it should come to a draw at least (unless your melee troops are heavily outclassed in which case there is no hope anyway), and after the draw as explained previously the HAs can do a lot, since in this case they will have a lot of ammo left.
In other occasions the HAs can go (as a block or maximum two blocks, never brake them more than that before the enemy routs/starts routing!) to pick up the enemy missiles during the main melee (that are now not protected by any melee troops). Do that though only if you are confident that the main melee will turn in your favor without much attention after engagement. In those instances, overpower the enemy missiles, engage them with one HA from the front and at the same time flank them from the rear if they are xbows or melee capable bows to ensure quick routs and maximum effect.
Sometimes HAs are worth sacrificing or using as a screen (as all missile troops) ie to absorb enemy missile fire that is aiming for your melee troops as they advace to attack or as you defend, particularly if you are overpowered in terms of missile power. Say during a long battle it may come to the enemy having many weak missile troops and you few melee strong troops and even fewer missiles/HAs. In that case, use the trees/slopes if possible or if not able, present the enemy your missiles in loose formation (if possible, as sometimes that is not worth it because they may rout - loose formation drops morale) as a target. In this way you safeguard your melee troops that can beat the enemy when he decides to assault you.
In a different scenario on the same theme, HAs can be used as the screen for an attack ie one or two units (maybe in loose formation) in front of your main melee line as it moves to assault the enemy melee line. The HAs can stay in front until just before the lines meet to absorb any enemy missile fire during the march to reach the enemy.
Notice that as HAs i mean classic HA units and not medium cavalry with bows.
Classic HAs in vanilla MTW are for example:
Vanilla HA
Mongol HA
Turcomans
Szekely
Mameluk HAs, Byzantine Cavalry, Sipahis, Mounted Crossbows, Boyars, Steppe Heavies (even if they are named and classed in Froggbeastegg's guide as such) and the like are NOT to be used as HAs in the way i describe above for most of the time. They will fail to do so because they are way too armored and have lower speed (lack in ability to perform quick maneuvers/redeployments) and lower stamina (lack in ability to remain fresh if they do too much marching/running), and they will also be wasting their huge melee potential (and hefty upkeep that it entails!) by taking losses in missile duels and also wasting some of their good morale (that is imperative for meleeing) due to unwarranted fatigue. These units are supporting units to your melee line, a hybrid between a horse archer and melee infantry on horse. They are a different type of unit even if it resembles superficially the classic HA.
By the way Steppe Heavies are probably the most overpowered unit after Billmen and Chivalric-men-at-arms. Not only they have good armor, relatively good speed for their class (and so relatively good stamina for their class) and melee stats, but they also cost almost nothing to maintain. Like many of the VI units (huscarles, karls etc) they are really "toy" units, to satisfy the want of SP players that always cry aloud for more units, and well outside any meaningful range (ie that every advantage should come at the price of a disadvantage in a unit or unit type). (Heavy) modding is required on them.
:bow:
Brandy Blue
02-20-2010, 02:36
Another consideration when using HA’s (and light cavalry) is the feint charge. Have your HA charge an enemy unit. The enemy unit will probably counter charge. Turn your HA around and have it run like crazy. The enemy unit will probably follow it. This trick can be used in various situations. 1: If the enemy main line is about to attack your main line, you can trick some enemy units into chasing your HAs, so only part of the enemy main force engages your main force. 2: If the enemy are on defense you can use a feint charge to lure an enemy unit off that hill which the enemy main line is probably parked. If you can draw one or more enemy units off the hill it may open up opportunities to shoot up a unit until it gets tired of it and returns to the main force, getting more arrows in its unshielded back as it goes, or you may get a chance to attack it with your main force, in which case the enemy can either let you slaughter it or send help, effectively abandoning its up hill advantage. 3: Suppose that one enemy unit is guarding another enemy unit, perhaps a heavy spear unit is preventing your cavalry from attacking an archer unit. If your HA can draw the heavy spear unit away, then your cavalry can sweep down on the poor archers. 4: You can also use a HA unit to get an enemy to attack at a disadvantage. Can’t catch an enemy cavalry unit with your spear unit? Use a feint charge to get it to chase your HAs who retreat right through your spearmen’s position. Maybe they will pursue until they contact your spears. If the cavalry won’t follow, then they might just sit there and let the HAs shoot them up. Or you can try again, but this time let your HAs actually complete their charge. They will fight terribly of course, but your spear unit will charge the pinned cavalry unit, and your HAs can get away by retreating right through your spearmen (if you have them on hold formation and keep clicking behind your spearmen until the HAs get away.) What do you know – you now have your HAs protected by a spear screen and ready to shoot those enemy cavalry, and chase them down when they rout.
The main point of conventional tactics is to place and move your troops so you get the enemy at a disadvantage. The main point of horse archer tactics is to get the enemy to go where you want them to go – to put themselves at a disadvantage. Unfortunately, just shooting and running away will not always get the enemy to go where you want them to be. Feint charging provides a flexible tool that often will do just that.
A few cautions:
1: I am assuming that your HAs can approach the enemy pretty close without routing. Otherwise no feint charges. You may need to keep them close together so they are not outnumbered locally too much.
2: I am assuming that you will exercise caution when feint charging cavalry that might chase you down. This is especially true if the cavalry unit is facing your HAs, as your guys need to turn around to escape, but they will be pointing at you already.
Good addition BB; the fake charge is indeed a good tactical weapon and can be performed with other cavalry units (preferably light as you say but occasoinally heavy too) as well.
One way to make the feign practically work is to withdraw the unit ie press control+w. This will make the unit run off at the opposite direction you enetered the map. Consequently it does not work for all directions of (feigned) attack but only when you march straight to the enemy, and yet when it does work its powerfully effective. The good bit is that the unit can be recalled at will (i say this because the same trick can be done with routing the unit, but this carries a certain risk with it, namely that the unit may not listen to rallying calls and leave).
:bow:
Brandy Blue
02-20-2010, 04:22
Good addition BB; the fake charge is indeed a good tactical weapon and can be performed with other cavalry units (preferably light as you say but occasoinally heavy too) as well.
One way to make the feign practically work is to withdraw the unit ie press control+w. This will make the unit run off at the opposite direction you enetered the map. Consequently it does not work for all directions of (feigned) attack but only when you march straight to the enemy, and yet when it does work its powerfully effective. The good bit is that the unit can be recalled at will (i say this because the same trick can be done with routing the unit, but this carries a certain risk with it, namely that the unit may not listen to rallying calls and leave).
:bow:
1: Point taken. Heavy cavalry can fake charge too.:bow:
2: I never thought of using the CTR + W in this context.
The main advantage of that is that it makes the unit make a complete 180 degree turn around - whether if you order the unit to turn around manually180 degrees you'll see that it takes more time as the unit will wait for its leader to turn before it follows him. With withdraw the unit just turns around on the spot, its considerably quicker.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.