Europa Barbarorum

[Stefan the Berserker]

Ok my dear Fellows. For simplification this topic is opened to house discussions on the "Europa Barbarorum"-Project, to join us or write Essays.

Perhaps we should now List our Group ->

TeutonicKnight
Stefan the Berserker
... (to be Continued)

[Teutonic Knight]

our members also consist of:
Monk
Cebei
Aymar Bois de Mauri (sp?)
Parmenio
frogbeastegg
Big King Sanctafrax
_Martyr_
The Emporer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


*off to recruit some more*

[Stefan the Berserker]

We also got:

Psycho

[Ludens]

What exactly is it that you are campaigning for?

BTW Teutonic Knight, it is "Aymar de Bois Mauri".

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Aymar Bois de Mauri
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif You BAD boy, Teutonic Knight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-veryangry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif


JOKE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif



Quote[/b] ]BTW Teutonic Knight, it is "Aymar de Bois Mauri".
Thanks, Ludens http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



Quote[/b] ]What exactly is it that you are campaigning for?
To try to make CA improve their rather "approximative" (incorrect, really) depiction of Celts, Britons, Germanics and Dacians in RTW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 12 2004,20:57)]To try to make CA improve their rather "approximative" (incorrect, really) depiction of Celts, Britons, Germanics and Dacians in RTW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif
And whats wrong with half-naked lunatics running around with impressive two handed weapons?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif


CBR

[Basileus]

Its a good cause, im all for it :)

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]What exactly is it that you are campaigning for?


Re-election of Bush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Pindar]

Quote[/b] ]To try to make CA improve their rather "approximative" (incorrect, really) depiction of Celts, Britons, Germanics and Dacians in RTW.

What is the incorrect depiction?

Are you going to extend your campaign to include the 'incorrect' depiction of Ptolemaic Egypt?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Its a good cause, im all for it :)
Then join in... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif




Quote[/b] ] Re-election of Bush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
NO WAY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-veryangry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif... ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sick.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif




Quote[/b] ]Are you going to extend your campaign to include the 'incorrect' depiction of Ptolemaic Egypt?
One thing at a time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 12 2004,17:16)]
Quote[/b] ]What exactly is it that you are campaigning for?


Re-election of Bush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
actually.....

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

How did this get to Politics? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

Please back to original topic

[Revenant69]

Sign me up.
does this mean that i have to have that sig? If so i can just cut and paste right?

[Pindar]

No one seems to have answered my question about depicting the barbarians. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything less from the uncivilized quarters.

[Cazbol]

Is there some thread that explains the problem in a little more detail than this one? I'm having a hard time firing up my enthusiasm for this campaign.

[Rosacrux]

How about depicting Ptolemaic Egypt as it was really? I think that faction is much more important in the relevant timeframe than any of them half-crazed, naked, berserker barbarians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-tongue2.gif

Actually I am kidding, but why do not extend this "movement" to a broader scope and convince CA to actually give us a generally more accurate game (history-wise)?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

[rasoforos]

AND proper language for the Hellenes. No english with accent crap...

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Revenant69 @ Jan. 13 2004,02:19)]Sign me up.
does this mean that i have to have that sig? If so i can just cut and paste right?
If you don't want a picture you can just add a line of text, or come up with your own alternative.

I'm waving a banner for accuracy for all factions, not just barbarians. "No more ancient mummies bought to life for Egypt's army please. Just say NO to occult practices" Inaccurate Romans bother me just as much as inaccurate barbarians and I would rather not play RTW Spartacus style.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

I want to join in... I do not know how much time I will have available for research. As I have study, job and football season starting up again...:builder:

Plus some other hobbies as well...

I can not get the banner posted though... can anyone help me out please ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Cebei]

Are we going to send a proposal to CA when this ends?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]No one seems to have answered my question about depicting the barbarians.

Quote[/b] ]Is there some thread that explains the problem in a little more detail than this one? I'm having a hard time firing up my enthusiasm for this campaign.

Hey, Pindar and Cazbol

How about reading:

THE CELTS (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=14057)



To Revenant69 and Michiel de Ruyter:

It's just like posting pictures:

In your SIG, just write http://projektstarwars.de/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=501917 between the image command.




Quote[/b] ]How about depicting Ptolemaic Egypt as it was really? I think that faction is much more important in the relevant timeframe than any of them half-crazed, naked, berserker barbarians

Actually I am kidding, but why do not extend this "movement" to a broader scope and convince CA to actually give us a generally more accurate game (history-wise)?
I totally agree with you, Rosacrux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Maybe we can enlarge it to fill all of RomeTW's factions.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Are we going to send a proposal to CA when this ends?
I hope so. And as soon as possible. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]How about depicting Ptolemaic Egypt as it was really? I think that faction is much more important in the relevant timeframe than any of them half-crazed, naked, berserker barbarians

Actually I am kidding, but why do not extend this "movement" to a broader scope and convince CA to actually give us a generally more accurate game (history-wise)?



I am all for historical accuracy for RTW, no matter what faction it is

The more accuracy the better in my view.

In today's world, Movies and Computer Games makers are the new historians... People seldom read history books quite as much anymore, and if a historically accurate game can make someone learn something as well as have fun then all the better

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Cebei]

Thanks Aymar, secondly are there any links to a site where ALL of the RTW factions-buildings-units etc. are listed? So that we can understand what is wrong.. I really dont know much about the RTW other than super trailers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Nowake just pmed me and said he wanted to join the revolution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

Alright we need to get organized here.

(a) what is the first project that we need to get working on

(b) how do you guys propose to go about doing such project

© which members will be doing what

these are just some questions that need answering before we go any further. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

I'm sure this has some relevance to history, but you are going to have to prove it. So far there is little to give it any historical background (ok so you are talking about making RTW more historically accurate but there is little mention of history in that.)

It would be more fitting in the Colosseum or maybe even the Tavern...

[Stefan the Berserker]

"The Romans defined all people whom didn't belong to the Romano-Hellenistic Race, as Barbarians." - Mussolini

We'll Face any Mistakes, but as those Mistakes with the northern Barbarians are worst we have begun there. For Egyptans and Punics we were glad for any Information and will tie it to our Request at CA.

This is an Historic Topic, one Unit discription of those I found out comes here:

Germanic Lancemen

--- Formed by the Frydmen of Germania, who have learned to life with the icy Winters and short Summers of their Lands, these Lancemen are known for their Sacrifice on their Masters. Julius Caesar discribes them as disciplined, hard-nosed Warriors fighting in a dense formation he called a "Phalanx". Their mantall Shields, packed one at the other, indeed supplied an almost perfect Protection while their Lances belonged to the deadlyest in the Ancient World. ---

The Germanic Lancers are similar to Hellenistic Hopilites and later English Fyrds (while the Fyrds are their decendants).

“After they had overthrown the Roman cavalry with a densely packed formation, they formed their shield wall (phalanx) and attacked our first battle line from below” (Caes. BG I, 24,2: »REIECTO NOSTRO EQUITATU, PHALANGE FACTA SUB PRIMAM NOSTRAM ACIEM SUCCESSERUNT.«).
Shortly afterwards “they quickly formed their shield wall as they are used to, and repelled our sword attack” (Caes. BG I, 52,4: »AT GERMANI CELERITER EX CONSUETUDINE SUA PHALANGE FACTA IMPETUS GLADIORUM
EXCEPERUNT.«).

Caesar here discribes a Battle he had with them under Ariovistus. As you can see Jules Caesar definatly said Phalange / Phalanx and he intends that this "Phalanx" was trained, throughout he says the Shield wall was formed "quickly".

the dreadful Germanic lances that “inflict wounds from a formidable distance” (Tac. ann. I, 64: »HASTAE INGENTES AD VULNERA FACIENDA QUAMVIS PROCUL«) Germanic graves have revealed specimens of a length of 41-45 cm with lateral cut-outs If this type of thrusting lance is mentioned they are called “enormous” or “over-long lances” (Tac. ann II, 14: »ENORMIS HASTAS«; ann. II, 21: »PRAELONGAS HASTAS«). These expressions may refer to the length of the shaft and respectively to the length and width of the point. In the battle at the Angrivarian Wall (16 AD) the Imperial Guard was not able to storm the Wall because they received severe thrusts from above, and Germanicus Caesar had to withdraw them (cf. Tac. ann. II, 20: »QUIS INPUGNANDUS AGGER, UT SI MURUM
SUCCEDERENT, GRAVIBUS SUPERNE ICTIBUS CONFLICTABANTUR. SENSIT DUX INPAREM COMMINUS PUGNAM…«). The weapons that inflicted those blows from above may well have been such “enormous” and “over-long” lances.

The Germanic Lance Tacitus mentioned is a deadly Weapon with long (about 41-45 Cm) Spearheads, making the Warriors able to break almost any Armor from the Distance.

Germanic Lancemen should then have following special Abilities:

- Bonus against armored Enemys
- Disciplined
- Large Shield
- Bonus against Cavallary
- Good Morale
- Good Charge

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Remember: This is the germanics Standard-Unit, together with Skirmishers

[Cebei]

Whoaa.. just easy.. we arent organized yet, I agree Teutonic. We have to divide the work, otherwise people will study what they like and we will end up repeating posts and perhaps some part of barbarian history will remain untouched. Then when we give our proposal to CA, they will look us like playground children.


1-Post a link of the current unit/building/info page, so that people will understand what is missing.

2-Limit the people who are in this FOR REAL. Or weeks later we will still be trying to fit a newcomer into a group "which has room for a guy".

3-Among the enlisted people, divide all into groups like "Celtic Buildings", "Dacian units", "Germanic tactics".. The members of the group should ONLY research that field.

4-WHen each field is completed, the reports will be presented (together with historical proofs, or else we will end up with "Cebeian flying purple tiger lancers") and ALL groups will read ALL reports.

5-After final adjustments some volunteers will complie the findings and sent the proposal to CA.

Long live the Barbaroum

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

I agree Cebei, that sounds like a good plan of action. Now we need to figure out exactly what categories of research we need to get involved with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

I also agree with Sir Ithaskar, we might want to put this in the Colosseum so the other Rome fans will see it. On the other hand the Monastary isn't posted in very often, so this thread would pretty much be guaranteed top of the page status, or close to it. In the end it's really up to Ithaskar, if we're being a hinderance he'll move us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-happy2.gif

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Pindar @ Jan. 13 2004,07:42)]No one seems to have answered my question about depicting the barbarians. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything less from the uncivilized quarters.
Pindar,
I do not know what problems you have with the representation of Ptolemeic Egypt. The reason why this campaign is centered around the barbarians, is because the RTW-barbarians are not the barbarians as were fighing against Rome. They are just shirtless guys with large swords. Gaulic / Germanic cultures are ignored and thrown together. That is the reason for the campaign.
What are your reasons for an Africa Egyptinum-campaign?

Ludens

P.s. I hope this was sufficiently unbarbaric to mollify master Pindar.

[The_Emperor]

Ok guys I will attempt to search for information about the Celtic tribes of Britain during this period...

Sadly I don't have any books on the subject yet, but I will work on that.

For now I have the joys of the Internet to help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]1-Post a link of the current unit/building/info page, so that people will understand what is missing.

2-Limit the people who are in this FOR REAL. Or weeks later we will still be trying to fit a newcomer into a group "which has room for a guy".

3-Among the enlisted people, divide all into groups like "Celtic Buildings", "Dacian units", "Germanic tactics".. The members of the group should ONLY research that field.

4-WHen each field is completed, the reports will be presented (together with historical proofs, or else we will end up with "Cebeian flying purple tiger lancers") and ALL groups will read ALL reports.

5-After final adjustments some volunteers will complie the findings and sent the proposal to CA.

Long live the Barbaroum

We have a Prototype Guideline now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif

Good work, Cebei http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]P.s. I hope this was sufficiently unbarbaric to mollify master Pindar.
If he didn't think so... ...who's the barbarian now? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I think we should have 2(min) or 3(max) person teams. Each team should coordinate among themselves until a prototype research is presented to the rest of the group.

Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
...


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO ???
...


Who will do the Germanic research?
...
...


Who will do the Dacian research?
...
...

Start aplying, boys and girls... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Revenant69]

Hey Aymar the link that you have provided me doesnt work in my sig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-disappointed.gif

ORG says saomethig like "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board. A valid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.gif, an invalid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.one.gif "

Any ideas why I cant attach it to my sig (I mean the Europa Barbarorum sig)?

Thanks,
Rev

EDIT I volunteer myself to do a research on the Dacians. I have a couple of great books that i can start off with and i can always read Tacitus as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

EDIT2 Aymar Nevermind, Emperor has helped me fix my banner problem. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I'm going to look up stuff on the Welsh, if that's Ok. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[The_Emperor]

Right then guys, I have only been searching the net for little while and I have already found some useful stuff...

The following comes from www.romans-in-britain.org.uk

"Although Britain was divided into areas ruled by individual tribes, they all had very similar attitudes to their communities and way of life.

A tribe would be organised into individual kingdoms with each having it's own ruler who was the monarch of the tribe. Around them would be the members, each having their own status within the community and their own responsibilities.

Most of the income for the people came from the land in the form of arable and livestock farming. Growing cereal crops such as wheat and the rearing of livestock of which cattle and sheep where the main source of meat. This was very much widespread throughout Britain and Europe, which made trade with the continent a viable business. If a country lacked certain items, they could buy it from elsewhere or exchange goods with their neighbours. The British preferred to barter in goods rather than money

On the subject of the tribes, Pytheas, a historian of the time recorded :

This wheat the natives thresh, not on open floors, but in barns because they have so little sunshine and so much rain.
He also wrote :

They (the British) refuse to accept coin and insist on barter, preferring the exchange necessities rather than fix prices.
It is interesting to note that this attitude to bartering goods was still very strong in the period directly before the first Romans, who were avid coin makers, came to Britain in large numbers. The first coinage that we have evidence if did not appear in Britain until the second century BC. This did not mean that Britain was inhabited by total savages set in their old ways, far from it. Diodorus Siculus said :

The inhabitants of that part of Britain which is called Belerion (Land's End) are very fond of strangers and, from their intercourse with foreign merchants, are civilised in their manner of life. They prepare tin, working very carefully the earth in which it is produced. The ground is rocky, but it contains earthy veins, the produce of which is ground down, smelted and purified. They bear the metal into masses, like astrgali, and carry it to a certain island off Britain called Ictis. Then the merchants buy the tin from the natives and carry it over to Gaul, and after traveling overland for about thirty days, they finally bring their load on horse to the mouth of the Rhone.

In this, the time of the Iron Age, the British were very advanced in the production of items from metal, in particular tin from the mines of Cornwall where the raw materials were abundant. From the metals the Celts could forge and shape nearly anything, especially in bronze, of which tin is a major component They were able to manufacture almost anything from the finest swords, spears and chariots to intricate designs on jewelery worn by the aristocracy. Considering their, by today's standards, primitive tools, their achievements were outstanding.

To mention only two instances of the ancient Celtic crafts would be an understatement. But the two most notable and best preserved items are :

The mirror found at Birdlip, Gloucester, which has the most elaborate workings on the enamel inlays in the handle.
The Mayer Mirror, taken from the River Thames, which is totally stunning.

In time, I will be placing pictures of these items on this page.

Metal was not the only material they could make into artefacts., the British were also very adept at making items of clothing from materials made to a high standard. The cloth trades were more towards the east of Cornwall were the tin mines were less concentrated. The most valuable item of attire was the sagum which was a woolen cloak worn by the Roman upper classes. To own such an item gave the impression of the wearer being in the height of fashion. "

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Hey Aymar the link that you have provided me doesnt work in my sig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-disappointed.gif
It's just like posting a picture in the reply screen, except you don't have the buttons to do it. You have to write it yourself. In the reply screen is:

-First you press the Image button - img but with Square Signs

-Then the adress: http://www.metw.net/images/supporter.gif

-Then the Image button again - /img but with Square Signs

In your SIG, because you have no Image button, you have to write the command text, similar to the one which appears when you press the image button.

[The_Emperor]

Here is some more info on the same site...

War and battles

It was not possible to directly compare the strength of one tribe with another since they were all very similar and the only real difference was the actual numbers in each tribe. Without a good knowledge of the opposing tribe, a leader would not potentially sacrifice their own throne for the sake of a needless war,. War was only declared if it was thought necessary and their chances of winning were good. War was common amongst these tribes, but there always had to be a trigger of some sort, such as a raid by an adjoining tribe to steal cattle or women to spark a full scale confrontation.

A young warrior would not be allowed to enter into battle until he had proved his manhood. He managed to prove himself in open display without the need to confront an enemy in battle. as is described below


Celtic equipment

The tribes had basic swords and weapons, along with their own techniques of fighting that developed over time. The ancient Britons had chariots in which they would ride amongst the enemy, hurling their spears into the ranks. It is said these chariots spread terror and confusion amongst the enemy. Indeed during the first Roman expedition of 54 BC. the chariots that were most effective against the Legionaries. The standard Roman battle tactics were designed to be used against ground troops, not such fast moving vehicles of war. Which was why the Romans were reluctant to face an enemy employing a method of fighting they had very little experience of.


Survival of the fittest

These people had a basic attitude to life. They regarded warfare as a part of life, as did many societies of this type throughout the world. It was considered part of their background to have rites that all young men had to perform to pass from adolescence to manhood. This process would show which youths were the fittest and strongest, thereby enabling them to progress into mature warriors. The weaker or puny youths and the physically uncoordinated did not survive and would often be cast out of the tribe. As such they would not survive and so perish when left to fend for themselves. A brutal method, but it ensured that the tribe remained strong and healthy.

This did not mean that all weaker youths were outcasts. Those showing a high degree of intelligence would be placed under the care of the priests who would nurture and encourage their talents for the good of the tribe. It was through these people that new techniques and advances would come. Others who did not posess the physical build to be a warrior, would be placed on farms. So there was at least something most members could contribute to the tribe.


The Celts in battle

The chariots were the most effective weapon, splitting the enemy ranks and allowing the fast moving warriors to run amongst an opponent's soldiers, slashing at them with highly sharpened swords that dealt out death and severe injury those those unfortunate enough to be a target.

The ultimate prize for a Celt was not the victory, but the taking of a human head from the enemy. It was common belief that the whole nature and soul of the person resided here. If a warrior took a head from an enemy, he believed that he took on the heroic qualities of his victim. Heads were kept as trophies and the slaying of an opponent and the removal of the head by a youth was seen as automatic qualification of manhood and he would be accepted as a full member of his tribe.


Celtic Battle tactics

Each tribe had their own method of fighting battles. By far the most common was in the use of the chariots to charge into the enemy's ranks, swords blazing out death. Once they had done their work, the soldiers would then join the battle at points where their leaders thought they would be most effective. It is important to mention here, that contrary to popular belief, the British chariots did not have swords jutting out from the wheels ready to take the legs off whoever was in range. This is one of those myths that has been around for so long, it has been taken as fact.

An advantage of the Britons trading with Europe was the traveling merchants could also collect information on techniques of fighting used in foreign lands. One such technique, copied from the Germans, used was to ride into the battle on horseback, then to leap from the animal and engage in face to face combat using swords. This was highly effective, as the enemy had expected an attack from warriors on horseback, then had to quickly adapt to a frontal ground advance.

As can been seen, this method of fighting was limited to fast assaults where the battle would last a relatively short time. A longer battle involving greater numbers on each side would soon degrade purely due to the physical exhaustion of all involved.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

OK So far we have:

Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO ???
...


Who will do the Germanic research?
...
...


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
...

Start working boys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif


Waiting for more... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

BTW, wasn't there a guy of Dacian ascendancy in the forums?
A guy who uses a Kensai picture for avatar?
Doesn't he want to join? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh2.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I have books on Celtic Britain left over from a couple of modules I had to do in my degree. May as well put them to use. It will be slow going though - I have a lot of stuff to do now.

[Cebei]

Caaaaaaaaaaaan someeeeeeonnneeeeeee pppoooooosssstttt aaaaaa lliiiiiinnnnnnnkkkkk offfffff currreeeeeennnnnttt RTW ffaaaaaccctttiiiiiooooonnnnn innnnfffoooooooooo??

You guys jumped to step two right away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Monk]

Late to the party as always http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-beam.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif


Quote[/b] ]Who will do the Germanic research?

Might as well sign up where somebody is needed. Count me in there.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Jan. 13 2004,21:49)]BTW, wasn't there a guy of Dacian ascendancy in the forums? A guy who uses a Kensai picture for avatar?
Doesn't he want to join?
Do you mean Nowake? The guy who had Dacian Falxmen as his favourite elite in the colloseum thread? You could PM him, if you wish.

Unfortunatly I am unable to contribute. I know little about ancient history / archeology with the exception of a few topics, and I have my studies to take care off. The study-coordinators have been amusing themselves by ordering us to read several chapters of "Molecular Biology of the Cell" in an apparently random order (it might just be that is was based on the order of the lessons, but I require evidence before accepting that hypothesis).
Sadists.

[Pindar]

Hail Ludens,


Quote[/b] ]Pindar,
I do not know what problems you have with the representation of Ptolemeic Egypt. The reason why this campaign is centered around the barbarians, is because the RTW-barbarians are not the barbarians as were fighing against Rome. They are just shirtless guys with large swords. Gaulic / Germanic cultures are ignored and thrown together. That is the reason for the campaign.
What are your reasons for an Africa Egyptinum-campaign?


I don't mind, and in fact agree with, more as opposed to less accuracy. So, if the Northern barbarians can be protrayed in a way more in line with the period, all the better. I do dislike revisionist views that try to put forward postitions where barbarians are no longer barbarian, but rather on a civilizational par with everyone else.

Regarding Egypt: I understand that the game will show the faction as for the most part something akin to Egypt's Nineteenth Dynasty instead of a proper Succesor State and thereby Greek. This seems the greater sin.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 13 2004,16:47)]Caaaaaaaaaaaan someeeeeeonnneeeeeee pppoooooosssstttt aaaaaa lliiiiiinnnnnnnkkkkk offfffff currreeeeeennnnnttt RTW ffaaaaaccctttiiiiiooooonnnnn innnnfffoooooooooo??

You guys jumped to step two right away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
I'm with Cebei here, people are going off on wild tangents. focus people focus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ Jan. 13 2004,17:52)]
Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 13 2004,16:47)]Caaaaaaaaaaaan someeeeeeonnneeeeeee pppoooooosssstttt aaaaaa lliiiiiinnnnnnnkkkkk offfffff currreeeeeennnnnttt RTW ffaaaaaccctttiiiiiooooonnnnn innnnfffoooooooooo??

You guys jumped to step two right away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
I'm with Cebei here, people are going off on wild tangents. focus people focus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
well what sort of faction info would you like me to find and post about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

can you do Germanic with Stefan?

[Monk]

Yes

sorry but that's all i have to say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

To Cebei:


Quote[/b] ]Caaaaaaaaaaaan someeeeeeonnneeeeeee pppoooooosssstttt aaaaaa lliiiiiinnnnnnnkkkkk offfffff currreeeeeennnnnttt RTW ffaaaaaccctttiiiiiooooonnnnn innnnfffoooooooooo??
I could only find this, but I remember another somewere in the Colosseum.

Playable Factions (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=11128)


To Ludens:


Quote[/b] ]Do you mean Nowake? The guy who had Dacian Falxmen as his favourite elite in the colloseum thread? You could PM him, if you wish.
Yes. That's him. Thanks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



OK So far we have:

Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO ???
...


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk

Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake ???

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Jan. 13 2004,21:31)]I have books on Celtic Britain left over from a couple of modules I had to do in my degree. May as well put them to use. It will be slow going though - I have a lot of stuff to do now.
So you can add me to the Celtic Britain list. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Rosacrux]

OK, I am starting off yet another campaign (fractionalist me): Include Ptolemaic Egypt in the list of the Civs who have to have more historical accuracy of the Europa Barbarorum...


...or should we interested into the more civilized parts of the 4th century BC Europe form some "Cultured Europe" pact to advance our aim for historical accuracy for the Ptolemeans, Seleukids and others To-Be-Butchered???

Maybe we can call our little pact Coniuratio Graecum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif or cubiculum Graecum... err.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

[Nowake]

Well subjects http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif Nowake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif talked to Teutonic Knight and he pointed out to this thread, but .. here is nothing - meaning that here is the answer to my enquiry, Teutonic, but not a solution.

Here is a bunch of raw historical information provided by people who don't know very well to what are they aiming for.

Do you think that our beloved developers can't find all that you have said untill now on the net or .. wherever? They can, believe me. Our goal is to point out exactly what they neglected or we at least assume they neglected. We have to make clear sugestions, that solve exactly the problem, not to post general historical information which they will never read.

Do you think that their consultants on history don't have knowledge of your info? The problem in that they haven't found a way of implementing it in game or they prefered an aspect in favor of another, so we have to find the solutions they haven't found yet, to use our common sense and point out the advantages that result from heeding our voice.

And we have to pay attention to detail, very much attention, and read with very much attention every historical information in order to extract the essential - how are we going to do that when our little aristocrat Aymar can't read this thread from top to bottom and see that Nowake already joined Europa barbarorum? Just for the record, Aymar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

We should form up teams that consult eachother and present here only the final version. And no member should criticise another ones point of view "in public". Believe me, all this would be transformed into rabble in front of the others. So for the moment use pm.

Another thing, the last: can anyone around here raise up a private forum? The simplest one, where we can "talk" in peace and after that come to the .org with clear projects. Nowake thinks that if we are to try and do a better job that CA's historical advisors, we should do this profesionaly, or we are just going to loose our time.

Now, Nowake will work on dacians, but he can also put some of his effort for the gauls and germans, so if you need some help there, just say it, all books by Tacitus and Julius Caesar were devoured by Nowake this summer, including "Germania" and "De bello gallico". Btw, for those researching the germans, bear in mind to look up in the "Annals" which is full of usefull descriptions of the roman campaigns from across the Rhine.


Nowake's two chopped heads ... uhmm, cents, of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

On Germanics: That was usually my Resort... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif

But there are two Units we must talk about:

Druids, germanic Ghodi and the Dacian's Highpriests fill exactly the same Function and can be displayed through one Unit only (they even wore the same White-Robes), but they can't be called "Druids" unless naming Ghodis as Druids was historically incorrect...

The early Christians in England called the "Waelsch" ('Foreigners' -> Briton Celts in 450 A.D.) Druids and their Former own Ghodis "Sèarumen". Sèaruman ment something like "hidden man" or "tricky man" in middle-english, so it could be adopted for naming a Unit representing them all... Anyway the word remembers me to something, maybe because a novel-Figure was named after that word (-> Saruman). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

How should Barbarian "Emissiarys" be? After what I think they should be Singers like "Barden" or "Minnesänger" in medieval Germany... In Celtic-Language these were called the "Banduri", if I remember correctly. In germanic there are two words for these "Thule" in Scandinavia, and "Skalde" in Germany... Now, there's just the decsision which Name fits best: "Banduri","Thule" or "Skalde"?

[Teutonic Knight]

alright Nowake,


Quote[/b] ]Do you think that our beloved developers can't find all that you have said untill now on the net or .. wherever? They can, believe me. Our goal is to point out exactly what they neglected or we at least assume they neglected. We have to make clear sugestions, that solve exactly the problem, not to post general historical information which they will never read.


Yes it's quite obvious that they have all of this material at their disposal. The problem is that they have looked at most of this material and have rejected it on the assumption that the fans wouldn't care how barbarians are portrayed. That's where we come in, we must convince them otherwise.



Quote[/b] ]We should form up teams that consult eachother and present here only the final version. And no member should criticise another ones point of view "in public". Believe me, all this would be transformed into rabble in front of the others. So for the moment use pm.


I agree
Do you think each group could start a different thread that only the members of that research group will post in? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Nowake]

The dacian priests were also elite warriors, fighting on horse (so they can't be depicted as the druids or the ), knew writing, and they were chosen only from the nobility. More info on them later, for know just bear in mind that they were called ktistai http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif


Teutonic, my opinion is that - as for the moment we don't have a private forum - the team members should e-mail eachother the information they have, reach a conclusion and after that post it in a thread dedicated to the specific faction. We'll see how are we going to try to interact with CA later, when we'll have some results.

So, if Revenant69 is a member of my team, he should make his e-mail available (if it isn't already) or send me his adress in a pm (the more "private" solution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif). Then he should mail me whatever he thinks that deserves my atention (in what concerns the dacians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-tongue2.gif) and Nowake will do the same.


Regards

[Stefan the Berserker]

WEAPONS:

There were two kinds of Swords in usage within the Barbarians:

Longswords

http://www.ratatoskr.de/024103.jpg

These Swords wighted about 1 Kg and were ca. 90 Cm long, a wonderful Weapon but it was very expensive. The roman Gladius was only 68 Cm long, but wighted 2 Kg (double than the Barbarian Sword).

The Sax

http://www.melbar.de/Blankwaffen/Schwerter/Schwerter/j2044.jpg

The Sax was invented by the Saxons and was a kind of "Saber" and only sharp at on side*, the producement needed less Iron than for a normal Sword which made the Sax a really cheap Weapon most people could afford. Its less wight of about 400 g caused that the fighting style by useing it was very fast (hack, hack, hack... I'LL HIT YOU ONCE ), by length the Sax was with 70 Cm normally.

* The Sax was sharper than a normal sword, Sax -> Cutting Longsword -> Hacking

[Cebei]

Oh great, Aymar answered my prayers. Factions are;

Roman: House of Julii
Roman: House of Brutii
Roman: House of Scipio
Roman: The senat and the people of Rome
Macedonia
Egypt
The Seleucid Empire
Carthage
Parthia
Pontus
Gaul
Germania
Britannia
Armenia
Dacia
Illyria
Numidia
Scythia
Spain
Thracia
rebels

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/mzocker/PDVD_001.jpg

20 factions and 12 are playable from the off. Playable factions are:
Confirmed
1.Rome Julii
2.Rome Brutii
3.Rome Scipio
4.Macedonians
5.Carthage
6.Germans
7.Britain
8.Egypt
9.Gaul
10.Spain
11.Selucids
12. Greek

However we still need an "official" confirmation for this.

These lists are just derived from Aymar's link of the forum.

[Cebei]

Barbarian units in the RTW official site:

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/for.jpg

Gallic Foresters
A life spent hunting is an excellent training for war. Personal courage, skill and the readiness to take a life can all be learned during the hunt. Foresters are highly skilled men who have great ability with both bow and spear, learned over many years of hunting. The need to put meat on the King's table for his warriors means that they are valued members of the community as most barbarians are great meat eaters by preference - and this is one of the reasons that they are strappingly large in comparison to Romans

In battle, Foresters are gathered into their own warbands who are not only excellent archers, but can take advantage of every piece of terrain. They are not heavily armoured, but they are flexible, well-able to use arrow fire to weaken an enemy unit before closing to finish the issue in hand-to-hand combat.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/daxe.jpg

Chosen Axemen
Double-handed axes are intimidating weapons, and they should be used to hack a hole in an enemy line. These axes are heavy, superbly made, razor sharp and easily capable of cleaving a man down to his breastbone even through armour. Chosen Axemen are an elite among tribal warriors, selected for their physical size, strength, bravery and - some would say - pig-headedness. They are the assault troops of any barbarian army, the men whose only job is to smash any organised resistance and keep on killing until no foes remain.

Fear is completely alien to them, as is any concept of mercy to a foe or a weakling among their own kind. They are fantastically strong men - and need to be to wield their enormous double-headed axes with any degree of skill and control. Some Chosen Axemen are wealthy enough to have mail coats, but most disdain armour as a sign of cowardice. They may also carry swords as reserve weapons.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/baraxe.jpg

Barbarian Axemen
Axemen are close combat warriors. It is their task to break open an enemy line or formation so that their brother warriors can exploit the breach. Axemen are powerful warriors chosen for their size and strength to wield the heavy francisca, a single-headed axe that can split a shield, cuirass, helmet or the skull beneath with a single blow. They also carry heavy shields (to bash opponents as much as for protection) and wear helmets but only light armour. Speedy charges are important, but there is a degree of bravado too, in showing contempt for the enemy's best efforts

Roughly organised into warbands, they are used to hack a way into an enemy line and open a hole for their comrades to exploit. This role is risky, but it is seen as heroic and an opportunity for glory and greatness not to be squandered. Axemen are very brave and are not usually disheartened by their own casualties.


http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/librch.jpg

British Light Chariots
Light Chariots are very fast, very noisy and, when used in large numbers, can drive a frightened or shaken enemy from the field. They are pulled by small, swift ponies and combine the mobility of cavalry with the "staying power" of infantry. Each chariot carries two men: the unarmoured driver concentrates on keeping the vehicles under control, leaving the noble-born warriors to fight using the many javelins that are available on each chariot. Light Chariots are best used to scout ahead of an army as a "reconaissance in force" and to pursue a fleeing enemy. On occasion it may also be worth sacrificing them to break a previously unyielding enemy line.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/barar.jpg

Barbarian Archers
Barbarian Archer warbands are composed of fierce, lightly-equipped men who can strike quickly and use terrain to its best advantage. They usually carry a small bow - not the compound bow favoured by the more civilized peoples - and a good selection of hunting and war arrows, designed to cut arteries and pierce armour respectively. They also carry short swords, allowing them to fight hand-to-hand when they must, and they are not armoured, unless an individual has been lucky enough to strip a fallen enemy of gear after a fight. These archers are at their best in wooded country where their keen eye, loose formations and stealthy tactics give them the edge. They can also support charging infantry hordes by expertly unleashing a rain of arrows to dispirit a well-formed enemy line. However, any Archers caught in open ground by heavy troops or cavalry will be in trouble unless they can withdraw to more favourable ground or behind a wall of friendly spearmen. Archers should be used to break up enemy formations, so that heavier troops can do the real killing.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/falx.jpg

Dacian Falxmen
The falx is a deadly pole-arm in the hands of an expert. Falxmen should be used to carve a path into an enemy formation. Falxmen fight in loose units, as they need space to wield their weapons to full advantage, and do not bother with shields as the falx requires two hands to use properly. They usually fight bare-chested and wear baggy trousers, with only a skullcap for protection. They are best employed to cut a way into tightly packed enemy units, but can also give a good account of themselves against light cavalry thanks to the reach of the falx. The falx itself is a frightening weapon: a curved cutlass-like blade on the end of a long wooden (almost spear-like) handle. Unlike a cutlass, however, the falx is sharpened along the inner curve of the blade, so that the damage on the blow is done with a pulling motion. When used properly a falx can easily hack off a limb or decapitate an enemy, making anyone unlucky enough to face it unlucky indeed

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/barcal.jpg

Barbarian Cavalry
Barbarian Cavalry ride small, sturdy and sure-footed horses, and are lead by a wealthy clansman or minor noble. They are capable of darting in to an attack, throwing their javelins, hacking through an unwary, unformed enemy and then making their escape before the opposing troops can react. They carry a sword; a clutch of javelins, a very light shield and can ride swiftly and quietly through woods, scrub and over steep hills where other cavalry units would have diificulty. They are best used as scouts, to ambush or skirmish or to drive away enemy skirmishers. They have little experience of formally organised (or "civilized") cavalry warfare, and are unlikely to be very effective in a straight fight against regular cavalry or properly disciplined infantry.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/woad.jpg

Woad Warriors
Woad Warriors are powerful and, quite frankly, scary British warriors. They disdain armour and most clothing, preferring to paint themselves with intricate and stylised magical designs in woad (a blue dye) to deflect enemy blows and missiles. The patterns created can be elaborate and almost inhuman, and distinctly unnerving for enemies unused to such barbarous practices. But the belief in their magic also armours them against fear, and makes them savage and dangerous fighters. Woad Warriors carry a long spear and a small shield and can move very quickly across even rough terrain. It is a foolish commander indeed who underestimates their terrifying effect in a battle.

[Cebei]

A new forum member posted this:

what? (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14314;)

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 14 2004,11:53)]A new forum member posted this:

what? (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14314;)

Quote[/b] ]As mentioned these have gone through a review and as such may no longer reflect the game as well as they could.


Could that mean they are making them more "historic", or just adding things like facepaint to them? I guess we shall see http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh2.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Could that mean they are making them more "historic", or just adding things like facepaint to them? I guess we shall see

ROFL, they already got faceopaints http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-happy2.gif

This is an invaluable time to conduct the research. They are already in a period of reformulation so we can influence the game to a great extent

[The_Emperor]

I thought you guys might appreciate this.

A couple of images of Celtic artifacts that prove that these guys were capable of producing very high quality artifacts

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/Photos/clb_gold_torc_norfolk.jpg
The Above is a gold torc that was found in Norfolk. This would have been worn by a high ranking member of the (Iceni) tribe's noblity.

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/Photos/clb_craft_gold_cup_germany.jpg
A gold cup of Germanic origin.

[Parmenio]

Are we doing the Iberian Celts? If so I'll go research it, they make up an important part of Hannibal's army as well.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Are we doing the Iberian Celts?

The faction list is slightly above the thread.

[The_Emperor]

Hi guys, here is a breakdown of Julius Caesar's observations of the Celts in Britain.

First impressions of the Celts in Britain are recorded (5.12)

'The population is enormous (he actually says 'infinite'). Buildings are very close together, and in style virtually identical with those in Gaul'. They use as coinage bronze or gold coins, and iron tokens of a standard weight. Tin is mined inland, iron near the coast,' (he seems to have been wrong about this) 'but only in small quantities; the bronze they use is imported. As in Gaul there is wood of every kind available, except beech and pine' - (wrong again). 'The meat of hare, chicken and goose is taboo to them, though they keep them for sport or as pets. The climate is more temperate than in Gaul, with less pronounced cold-spells.' (He obviously hit a patch of our better weather)

Battle tactics (4.33)

In battle they must have been formidable opponents. The account reads;

'This is their method of chariot-warfare. First they drive their horses all over the place, throw weapons, and by means of sheer fear of the horses and the noise of the wheels create confusion in the ranks. Then, when they have broken through the troops of the cavalry, they jump down from their chariots and do battle on foot. Meanwhile their charioteers withdraw gradually from the fighting, and position the chariots so that if the warriors are outnumbered by the enemy they can conveniently beat a hasty retreat and rejoin their own men. Such is the manoeverability of their chariots as a result of daily training, (which also explains the reliability of their infantry in battle), that they are capable of controlling their teams at full gallop down a steep, even precipitous slope, and stopping or turning them on a coin; they are also in the habit of running along the pole, standing on the yoke, and regaining the safety of the chariot again at top speed.'

As Caesar comments himself, 'novel'

Body-painting. (5.14)

Their initial impression in battle must have been made the more alarming by the Celts' use of 'woad'. Having mentioned that those who lived away from the coastal areas clothed themselves in animal skins, Caesar goes on to say that: -

'all Britons paint themselves with woad, which turns the skin a bluish-green colour; hence their appearance is all the more horrific in battle. They grow their hair long, and shave every part of their body except the top of the head and the upper lip.'

The Druids. (6.13 ff)

In the course of his account of the Gallic (i.e continental) tribes, Caesar has a good deal to say about the Druids, and early on in the passage he mentions that 'it is thought that their Rule of life was first found in Britain, and then taken across to Gaul; nowadays, those who wish to enquire into it more closely travel there in orde to find out more about it.'

Regarding Druidic training he says 'The Druids usually take no part in was, and do not pay the same taxes as everyone else. They are exempt from military service, and indeed are excused from all such obligations. These advantages prove a considerable attraction; there is no shortage of volunteers for training, and others are even sent off by parents and relatives.

With regard to the Bardic tradition of the Druids Caesar says 'Once there they are said to have to learn by heart a great deal of poetry; indeed many stay on in training for twenty years. They consider it wrong to commit all these things to writing, though in other matters, indeed both in public and private documents they use the Greek alphabet. Presumably they do this for two reasons; first, because they do not want the details of their training to become common knowledge; and secondly, because they feel that once these details were written down those undegoing training would be less inclined to develop their memory.

It should be noted that Stonehenge predates the Celts by a number of centuries, however the religion of the Druids is suspected to be based on much older rituals.

The Druids would finally meet their end on the Island of Mona. (Angelssy) The source for the following is from Tacitus...

[The Druids at Mona Island]

On the opposite shore stood the Britons, close embodied, and prepared for action. Women were seen running through the ranks in wild disorder; their apparel funeral; their hair loose to the wind, in their hands flaming torches, and their whole appearance resembling the frantic rage of the Furies. The Druids were ranged in order, with hands uplifted, invoking the gods, and pouring forth horrible imprecations. The novelty of the fight struck the Romans with awe and terror. They stood in stupid amazement, as if their limbs were benumbed, riveted to one spot, a mark for the enemy. The exhortations of the general diffused new vigour through the ranks, and the men, by mutual reproaches, inflamed each other to deeds of valour. They felt the disgrace of yielding to a troop of women, and a band of fanatic priests; they advanced their standards, and rushed on to the attack with impetuous fury.

The Britons perished in the flames, which they themselves had kindled. The island fell, and a garrison was established to retain it in subjection. The religious groves, dedicated to superstition and barbarous rites, were levelled to the ground. In those recesses, the natives [stained] their altars with the blood of their prisoners, and in the entrails of men explored the will of the gods. While Suetonius was employed in making his arrangements to secure the island, he received intelligence that Britain had revolted, and that the whole province was up in arms. (Boudicca)

Sadly we rely on the Romans for a great deal of information about the British Celts because they did not write, instead they passed down their knowledge by word of mouth.

We must allow for exaggeration on the part of the roman authors... History is after all written by the victors

As for Human Sacrifice, there is no real knowledge of what the rituals of the Druids actually were, but it is thought that they didn't practice human sacrifice.

[Teutonic Knight]

Wow Cebei, you and Emporer are putting a lot of effort into this, great work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif


Quote[/b] ]This is an invaluable time to conduct the research. They are already in a period of reformulation so we can influence the game to a great extent

Let's hit em while they're down Yeah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]but it is thought that they didn't practice human sacrifice

No Celtic or Germanic people practised human Sacrifice, smashed down Enemys were usally "Sacered" by the fighters to their preffered God (Similar like Crusaders held prayers to thank God for their Victories). This was done in the imagination that the defeated Enemy would then become a servant of this God, expecially in Germanic Areas this was done in form of the Walhalla-Cult.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]And we have to pay attention to detail, very much attention, and read with very much attention every historical information in order to extract the essential - how are we going to do that when our little aristocrat Aymar can't read this thread from top to bottom and see that Nowake already joined Europa barbarorum? Just for the record, Aymar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif
Buuuuuuuuuáááááááááááááhhhhhhhhhhhhhh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Nowake is making fun of me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

Joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I didn't know you had joined http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-shocked.gif
But I did read it all... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
Something slipped by http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

BTW, great post, Nowake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif



Just to avoid confusion:


Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
...


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake


Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri


Game accuracy information:
Cebei

[Stefan the Berserker]

Runes

Tacitus in Germania, chapter X (date, AD 98):

Auspicia sortesque ut qui maxime observant. Sortium consuetudo simplex: virgam frugiferae arbori decisam in surculos amputant eosque notis quibusdam discretos super candidam vestem temere ac fortuito spargunt; mox, si publice consultetur, sacerdos civitat is, sin privatim, ipse pater familiae precatus deos caelumque suspiciens ter singulos tollit, sublatos secundum impressam ante notam interpretatur.

They, more than anyone, attend to omens and divination. Their custom with regards to divination is simple: They cut down a branch from a fruit-bearing tree, and chop it into twigs; they mark these with certain signs, and sprinkle them randomly upon a w hite cloth. Thereupon, the priest of the community, if it is a public matter, or the head of the household, if it is a private one, having called upon the gods, looks up to the sky and takes up three of the twigs, one after another, and interprets them ac cording to the signs previously carved on them.


Zitat[/b] ]The oldest runes were used in the entire germanic language area. The oldest found inscription is a spear head with the name (?) "raunijaR" carved into it. It's believed to be from the late 2nd century, and was found in Øvre Stabu in southern Norway. Eventhough most other inscriptions from the following centuries are also from Scandinavia, this doesn't mean that the runes were created here; the origin of the runes is shrouded in fog, and there are lots of theories about it.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1327/runengorig.html

------

The Runes are reported by Tacitus in 71 A.D. and in 200 A.D. in southern Norway the first artifact with Runic-Signs was found.

The Runes were a Script used by the Germanics in adoption of northern Etruscian Script, a proove for that theory is the Harigasthelmet from 600 B.C., which has the germanic Name "Harigast" written on it in etrusican Script.

http://www.khm.at/system2.html?/static/page1583.html

It was only logical if Runes appeared in RTW by putting them on Army-Banners or on Shields...

A good Font can be found here:
ftp://archaeologie-online.de/fonts/runettf.zip

[Nowake]

Nowake will do the research for the gauls along with Psycho, if everyone agrees.

Nowake will have a material by next week about the dacians, also.

And this brings me to the next point of discussion:

I don't want to be the one to criticise or anything, but I have to ask you Teutonic: what will CA do with those photos depicting celtic art or whatever?

Or with the text that so generally depict the celtic way of living (both on this page)??

Because let me tell you, I saw those materials on more than one occasion. It may seem odd to you, but I think it's better if we are going to write the material, not take it from the internet. Even if you have a good source, take the material and work with it. Say what you want to have in the game, how is it possible to implement it and then back it up with historical information. And don't post just bits and pieces, find all the known flaws of a faction, then write all the solutions for it, make a cohesive text, and then post it. Or else people will not take us seriously

This is the way we can really do something, not through copy and paste and "hey, look, I can use google" kind of stuff.


Revenant69, I got your pm, as soon as I'll have something that I can post, I'll mail it to you (probably nexy week, I must go through multiple sources and make it worth reading). You shall do the same I hope.

[The_Emperor]

I have found a lot of information about fortifications used by the Celtic Britons, and some info on battle gear.

I will post it later on when I am back home from work.

In response to what Nowake was saying
Quote[/b] ]Say what you want to have in the game, how is it possible to implement it and then back it up with historical information. And don't post just bits and pieces, find all the known flaws of a faction, then write all the solutions for it, make a cohesive text, and then post it. Or else people will not take us seriously


I was planning to produce a summary report when I had finished collating stuff in this thread... I will use that to explain my vision of how the Celtic tribes of Britons could be in the game.

[Teutonic Knight]

I'll join Cebei and help look at overall accuracy (as best I can) if he doesn't mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-beam.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Wow Cebei, you and Emporer are putting a lot of effort into this, great work

I am still looking for what exactly I can do for this project. Until now we got a faction list, and a "to-be-updated" unit information.

Now things to do:
1-Check whether the faction list in the pic CA provided is historically accurate. List BS or missing factions.

2-Comment on the current units. Check which one are incorrect and AFTER THE FACTION LIST IS FULLY COMPLETE fill in the gaps.

3-A reminder: Quoting from official RTW site.

The timeframe covers approximately 264BC (the start of the 1st Punic War) to around 14AD (the death of Emperor Augustus). The main campaign will be the rise and eventual death of the Republic, including Civil Wars and the various reforms of the Roman army. The most important of these reforms, under Marius, changed the whole Roman 'way of war', and the game reflects these changes. There's loads of juicy stuff in the period: the Punic Wars, Hannibal, Spartacus, Pompey, Caesar in Gaul, the conquest of Spain, the rise of Roman 'Imperial' pretensions in the leading families, and finally the seizure of power by the Imperators... That's a lot of gameplay and history We will be including a couple of smaller campaigns and a selection of tasty and exciting historical battles for those who want a snack rather than a full-on Roman feast :)


So this is basically the timeframe we are going to work on.


Quote[/b] ]Game accuracy information:
Cebei

Well honestly I was expecting someone else would do that and I would research the historical accuracy, while I am sitting next to the largest library in the Balkans and the Middle East. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif Anywayz...

To Nowake:


Quote[/b] ]Say what you want to have in the game, how is it possible to implement it and then back it up with historical information. And don't post just bits and pieces, find all the known flaws of a faction, then write all the solutions for it, make a cohesive text, and then post it. Or else people will not take us seriously


quoting from myself:


Quote[/b] ]Whoaa.. just easy.. we arent organized yet, I agree Teutonic. We have to divide the work, otherwise people will study what they like and we will end up repeating posts and perhaps some part of barbarian history will remain untouched. Then when we give our proposal to CA, they will look us like playground children.


1-Post a link of the current unit/building/info page, so that people will understand what is missing.

2-Limit the people who are in this FOR REAL. Or weeks later we will still be trying to fit a newcomer into a group "which has room for a guy".

3-Among the enlisted people, divide all into groups like "Celtic Buildings", "Dacian units", "Germanic tactics".. The members of the group should ONLY research that field.

4-WHen each field is completed, the reports will be presented (together with historical proofs, or else we will end up with "Cebeian flying purple tiger lancers") and ALL groups will read ALL reports.

5-After final adjustments some volunteers will complie the findings and sent the proposal to CA.


I think we will receive a similar criticism from anybody, who is willing to put effort in this. Cant we just organize for a second please?

Nowake, you can find the faction and unit info slightly above the thread.


Quote[/b] ]I'll join Cebei and help look at overall accuracy (as best I can) if he doesn't mind

You are joking right?... Of course Welcome aboard, though I dont have any better source than the totalwar.com http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif We gotta find reliable "insider" information. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif

[The_Emperor]

Structures and Fortifications used by the Britons.

During the Iron Age, different structures were used, however large, thatched roundhouses seem to be the most common structure used by most of the Tribes. They were made of wood

It is likely that the house would have been divided into different areas for eating, sleeping and communal activities. The fire is stationed in the very heart of the home providing the heat and light required by all.

The remains of stone-built houses called duns have also been found in central Scotland, Argyll and Galloway.

Hill Forts, Brochs and Crannogs
The Tribes of Britons were nearly always at war with one another, and as a result impressive fortifications were constructed as a response to the raids and incursions by other Tribes, they also reflected the power and status of the tribe that built them.

Hill Forts were made up of collections of Roundhouses, and varied considerably in size and complexity. Some are less than half the size of a Football pitch with very few buildings. Others encompass whole communities on a defendable hilltop, surrounded by ditches and steep banks.

The hill fort of Maiden Castle in Dorset is a great example.

Even today the ditches and banks of Maiden Castle Hill Fort are a spectacular impression in the British landscape. Covering an area of over 45 Acres The site is largely Iron Age construction. There are literally hundreds of such sites in Britain but most are a lot smaller than Maiden Castle, it is in fact the largest Iron Age Hill Fort in Europe.

http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/maidencastle4.jpg
“some ramparts rising to a height of 6 metres (20 feet). “ (I wouldn’t like to have assaulted that)

Scotland boasts some truly impressive defences, built as an effect of fighting among its tribes. (This may help to explain why it was never fully subdued by the Romans).

In the North and the West of Scotland where there were very few trees the settlements were built of stone, but they were still built to the same design. Often they built Brochs beside their huts into which they would retreat if they came under attack. These were huge circular, stone constructions, much wider at the base with a tiny entrance.

People could herd their livestock into the Brochs if necessary, as these were kept stocked with supplies of food. Water supplies, or even a well inside, ensured the survival of a tribe when under threat.

http://netmedia.co.uk/history/week-3/broch.jpg


(Check out the thickness of those walls guys) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
Also in Scotland the Celts built settlements called Crannogs, which were floating wooden settlements on lochs and moors. A floating platform would be built from wood and upon this floating platform they would build a round hut approximately fifteen metres in diameter. Around the timber walls of the crannogs, there was a walkway, and on the side looking over the loch access for a harbour. A narrow causeway reached the shore. The people who lived here planted crops in nearby fields, and could withdraw to their Crannogs should danger threaten

http://netmedia.co.uk/history/week-3/crannog.gif

Alright guys, that’s about it for my bit on fortifications.

Equipment
After checking at numerous sites I have found out that the Spear was the main weapon of the time, Practically every warrior would have one no matter his level in society.

In addition the Javelin was also very common among, presumably the spear and Javelin were the easiest weapons to make and get your hands on.

Sword were used by warriors of high station within the Tribes, this would be used with the Shield in regular combat they were around 70CM in length, Sword development was an artwork at the time so their use was more limited.

The very elite of Celtic Society could have possession of Armoured Helmets and some Chain mail, however these were extremely rare and were reserved by Chieftans and the Nobility of the Tribe.

No Evidence of Archery being used either for hunting or for warfare has been found from this period, and in fact the Sling was a more common weapon to shoot stones at enemies. In one Hill Fort some 20,000 stones were found, which indicates that it was a very widespread weapon at the time and especially used to defend the Hill Forts from attack. (presumably this is one of the reasons why the Celts lost, because the Roman Shields would offer good protection)

Axes do not seem to be the mainstay of the Celtic armies, but it can be assumed that during a time of crisis anything that would work as a weapon will do for those at the bottom end of the social ladder… As such they could have been used, but they were not the mainstay weapon in the Armies of Britons (Contrary to what we currently seem to have).

I hope you guys enjoyed reading this.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] ]You are joking right?... Of course Welcome aboard, though I dont have any better source than the totalwar.com We gotta find reliable "insider" information.

who would you like me to kll? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

what exactly are we looking for in the way of "inside information"? With my pushy personality and your booksmarts we should accomplish much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]who would you like me to kll? what exactly are we looking for in the way of "inside information"? With my pushy personality and your booksmarts we should accomplish much

We have to find ANY CA staff. They must know that the fans are preparing a study. There MUST be a staff here in the forum.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

I will hunt them to the end of the earth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-glasses2.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 15 2004,21:14)]
Quote[/b] ]who would you like me to kll? what exactly are we looking for in the way of "inside information"? With my pushy personality and your booksmarts we should accomplish much

We have to find ANY CA staff. They must know that the fans are preparing a study. There MUST be a staff here in the forum.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif
They often post in the Colosseum, so a thread with a link in it could be handy. (Or maybe moving it)

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]I will hunt them to the end of the earth

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rifle.gif


Quote[/b] ]They often post in the Collosseum, so a thread with a link in it could be handy. (Or maybe moving it)

Who are they? Any nicks? And perhaps it is a good idea to move the thread into the colloseum..

[Teutonic Knight]

well off the top of my head I can think of
Captain Fishpants
EatColdSteel

(these spellings are not entirely correct)

[The_Emperor]

Intrepid Sidekick
Captain Fishpants
JeromeGrasdyke

Are three that I know of... there are others.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Well, after what I though we should work out complete Texts and combine them in an Portofilo to be sent by Post to CA's Development-Department.

Anotherthing we can do is to use the Results of our Research for produceing a Mod based on Viking Invasions, with which we can show exactly what we think that should be done...

[Monk]

We might be able to ge a Mod to sticky a Link leading here in the Colloseum saying something like "CA please read this".

The staff who read the forums do go where it says "read this ect." just throwing an idea out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Cebei wrote:


Quote[/b] ]Well honestly I was expecting someone else would do that and I would research the historical accuracy, while I am sitting next to the largest library in the Balkans and the Middle East.
Sure What faction? With that library, if you have the time, you can do that too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

I think you all of you are finding great info at lightning pace http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

I'll try to catch up... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-lost.gif



The groups so far:


Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake


Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri


Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight


But like Nowake, Cebei and Teutonic Knight said, we really should try to coordinate ourselves. I'm getting lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif



As for Rosacrux:


Quote[/b] ]OK, I am starting off yet another campaign (fractionalist me): Include Ptolemaic Egypt in the list of the Civs who have to have more historical accuracy of the Europa Barbarorum...
I agree that we should make something about that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

But I didn't start this group. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif
If everyone agrees, why not? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif




Quote[/b] ]...or should we interested into the more civilized parts of the 4th century BC Europe form some "Cultured Europe" pact to advance our aim for historical accuracy for the Ptolemeans, Seleukids and others To-Be-Butchered???

Maybe we can call our little pact Coniuratio Graecum or cubiculum Graecum... err....
Do you really want to make it a separate group?
Wouldn't it be beneficial to the workload if it was the same?

You could do the research until someone else is available to help you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Let's see if I can catch up to you guys... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink2.gif


What does "Viriato" mean?


Viriato (pronounced: Vi-rah-'ta)

Portuguese male's name ' Viriato':

from the Latin male's name Viriathus or Viriatus',

from the Latin noun Viriae',

from the Continental Celtic noun for 'arm ornament or bracelet'.

Sources:

viriae: n, Latin derived from Celtic, for a kind of ornament for the arm, armlets, bracelets. 1

viriâtus: a, um, adj. [viriae], adorned with bracelets. 2

Viriâthus or Viriâtus: i, m., a celebrated leader of the Lusitans in the war against the Romans. 3



Biography of Viriato

For nearly 200 years, the Roman Empire waged an episodic war attempting to colonize the Iberian peninsula in western Europe. The most difficult fighting was encountered in the western areas of the peninsula - the home of the tribal confederation known as the Lusitans.

Viriato lived in the Mons Herminus hills (modern day eastern Portugal). He was famous for his physical prowess and stamina, his sobriety and his disregard for personal wealth. The historian, Diodorus writes of Viriato's wedding, to the daughter of a rich landowner whom he regarded with some reserve because of his father-in-law's support of Roman ways. Remaining unmoved by the display of gold, silver and expensive fabrics at his wedding feast, Viriato refused pressing invitations to take a place of honor. He remained standing, leaning on his spear and took only a little bread and meat, which he shared with his companions. When the bride was brought before him, he offered sacrifice in the Lusitan manner, set her on the cropper of his horse and rode away into the hills to his hideout.

Pre-dating the birth of Viriato, the Lusitans had traditionally raided lands to their east and south, taking livestock from their neighboring tribes. The Lusitans had seen the Roman presence (started around 198 b.c.), become progressively more domineering in the region, and sought to check their colonization by raiding Roman settlements and army camps. Subsequently the Romans branded these Lusitans barbaric brigands and sought to exterminate them.

Leading up to 146 b.c., Viriato initially lived as a pastoral goat herder, then engaged in Lusitan raids on Roman settlements as a source of wealth.

In 146 b.c. Viriato was elected Chieftain after he lead the survivors of a massacre out of a Roman deathtrap. His ingenious guerrilla tactics and success at taking the battle to the Romans, kept the Romans out of Lusitan tribal lands, curtailed their advances into other parts of the Iberian Peninsula and sparked "rebellions" with other tribes under Roman control.

In 141 b.c., Viriato, allowed a defeated and prostrate Roman army to return to Rome, requesting only that the borders of the Lusitans be respected and that the Lusitans be granted the status of 'amici populi Romani ' - 'friends of the Roman people'. These peace terms were actually ratified by the Roman Senate.

During the next two years the Romans broke this and other treaties they made with the Lusitans. In 139 b.c. the Roman general bribed 3 lieutenants of Viriato to kill him, they assassinated Viriato in his sleep.

It was not until 19 b.c. that the Roman Empire including legions under the command of Julius Caesar and Augustus, had waged war on the Lusitans that they were defeated, enslaved, and all of their lands annexed into the Roman Empire.

For the next 250 years, history begins to keep a more descriptive record of Roman expansion in Europe. From this history we find many more accounts of the wars in later-day France, Germany, England and the rest of Europe, and the names of other great tribal leaders who fought to remain free against Imperial Rome.



Lusitan Culture and History

Megalithic Age:

Monuments on Lusitan tribal lands, (in central/northern Portugal and southern Galiza).

1. Antas do Barrocal
2. Cromlech dos Almendras
3. Cromlech dos Almendras
4. Dolmen de Arca
5. Menhir y Cromelach do Xarez
6. Orca de Pendile


Bronze and Iron Ages:

Before the Greeks and Romans stumbled over:

"It is believed that the Lusitans had arrived in the Iberian peninsula more recently than their neighbors the Turdetans and the Celtici of Cuneus.

They probably came about the same time as the Celtiberians in the valley of the Ebro River and the mesetas of the hinterland, sometime before 700 b.c.

One can safely say that they belonged to the great Celtic confederation which invaded the Iberian peninsula about seven centuries before the birth of Christ, and collided with the Gallic peoples and those belonging to the Euskarian and Indo-Scythian races who had occupied the peninsula for an unknown number of centuries, ever since the first migrations of the Asiatic hordes into the West.

The Lusones, who in the opinion of Strabo, lived near the sources of the Tagus, and who were members of the Celtiberian nation, were probably only an offshoot of the Lusitans, who remained on the highlands of the Ibubeda.

Their name could well have been the original name of the Lusitans, who, in successive waves of conquest, came down from the sources of the river, where they had first settled, as far as its lower reaches and it's mouth, the broad and deep body of water which flows into the Atlantic Ocean."


Greek and Roman writings:

"All the men dress in black, for the most part in coarse cloaks, in which they sleep, on their beds of litter. But the women always go clad in long mantles and gay colored gowns.

Instead of coined money the people, at least those who live deep in the interior, employ barter, or else cut off pieces of beaten silver metal and pass them as money.

They marry in the manner of the Greeks. Their sick they expose upon the streets, in the same way as the Egyptians did in ancient times, for the sake of getting suggestions from those who have experienced the disease.

All the mountaineers lead a simple life, are water-drinkers, sleep on the ground, and let their hair stream down in thick masses after the manner of women, though before going into battle they bind their hair about the forehead. They eat goat meat mostly. They also hold contests, for light-armed and heavy armed soldiers and cavalry, in boxing, in running, in skirmishing, and in fighting by squads.

And the mountaineers, for two-thirds of the year eat acorns, which they have first dried and crushed, and then ground up and made into a bread that may be stored away for a long time. They also drink beer; but they are scarce of wine, and what wine they made they speedily drink up in merry feastings with their kinfolk; and instead of olive-oil they use butter. Again, they dine sitting down, for they have stationary seats built around the walls of the room, they sit themselves forward according to age and rank. The dinner is passed round and amid their cups they dance to flute and trumpet, dancing in chorus, but also leaping up and crouching low.

The Lusitans are given to laying ambush, given to spying out, are quick nimble and good at deploying troops. They have a small shield two feet in diameter, concave in front, and suspended from the shoulder by means of thongs, for it has neither arm rings or handles. Besides these shields they have a dirk or butchers' knife. Most of them wear linen cuirasses; a few wear chain-wrought cuirasses and helmets with three crests, but the rest wear helmets made of sinews. The foot-soldiers wear greaves also, and each soldier has several javelins; and some also make use of spears, and the spears have bronze heads.

The Lusitanians offer sacrifices, and they inspect the vitals, without cutting them out. Besides, they also inspect the veins on the side of the victim; and they divine by the tokens of touch too. They prophesy through means of the vitals of human beings also, prisoners of war, whom they first cover with course clocks, and then, when the victim has been struck beneath the vitals by the diviner, they draw their first auguries from the fall of the victim. And they cut off the right hands of captives and set them up as an offering for their gods."

An account of a confrontation with Roman general Fabius Maximus Servilianus and his army of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry near Itucca - "Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."

The modern "Galego-Portugues" language descends from the Latinized Lusitanian tongue.

Larger than life sculptures, carved out of a single piece of granite, the ancient 'guerreiro' sculptures, have been damaged from being purposely tipped over, causing the head and feet to be broken off, done initially by the Romans, but also later by others seeking to destroy veneration of Lusitan culture. "Restorations" done over the centuries, do not always do justice to the sculptures:




References

1. Pliny 33, 3, 12, 40; Tert. Pall. 4 mde.; Ambros. Abrah. 1, 9 88. Ancient texts.

2. Lucil. ap. Non. p. 186, 30; Varr. ib. p. 187, 14. Ancient texts.

3. Liv. Epit. 52; 54; Vell. 2, 1, 3; 2, 90, 3; Flor. 2, 17 fin.; Cic. Off. 2, 11, 40; Val. Max. 6, 4,2; Sil. 4, 354; 10, 219. Ancient Texts.

4. Appian. Appian's Roman History, Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapters 10-12. Cambridge, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press,1932.

5. Rafael Trevino and Angus McBride. Rome's Enemies, Group 4, Spanish Armies, Great Britain, Reed International Books Ltd., 1986.

6. Martin Almagro-Gorbea and, Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero. Paleoenthnology of Iberian Peninsula: State of Knowledge and Future Perspectives.

7. Antonio Atturbius. The Stones Speak.

8. Strabo. Geography, 3.3.6. ancient text.

9. Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press, 1932.


Maps and further pictures and information is on this site:

Viriato: Warrior-Chieftain of the Lusitans (http://viriato.netfirms.com/)

[Nowake]

Aymar, I don't think that we should split our forces so soon. Lets focus in our primary goal and only after that think of something else.

So Egypt, Greece etc. can wait. My opinion. Of course, it depends on what the others have to say.

Also, about Viriato. What exactly do you want to have in the game close to this? Lusitans? Specify, comment the text, show what should be changed, underline the importance of the lusitans etc.

[Rosacrux]

Aymar, thanks for the support lad, I was joking when saying to form a new group (you can tell that by the names I have proposed for the "new group" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif )

I really don't think there should be several "movements" (one for the barbarian, another for the Greeks, a third shall come up with requests for the Romans - "dump the Gladiators" - and someone surely shall bicker about the Easteners at some point - not to mention those who are going berserk about wardogs, flaming pigs, Xena, Hercules, DareDevil, Spiderman, Asterix or whoever else CA shall include in the game to "appeal to a broader audience).

If all of us longing for at least some level of historical accuracy in RTW, get together, we might just pull a rabbit or two out of this hat. If we don't... well, we'll have Hyksos chariots and 3rd Dynasty footmen for Egypt, not to mention Dacian Falxmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif and Chosen Ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif for the Celts.

Nowake, it's not a matter of "splitting forces", if there are some people willing to do the research for the respective faction, they would propably be others than those who already have gotten their feet wet with the "Barbarians".

Of course if you people decide on taking up the greater task, you should think of changing the name of the Movement... but then again it's up to you.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[rasoforos]

I am sure some people remembered we had created a same 'movement' for linguistic accuracy (still CA is insinsting on using 'accented' english though) in RTW for hellenes and romans. I agree with Rosacrux that we should stay united. We should pursue our goals if we do not want RTW to go horribly wrong...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Also, about Viriato. What exactly do you want to have in the game close to this? Lusitans? Specify, comment the text, show what should be changed, underline the importance of the lusitans etc.
Ok, don't bite my head off. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad2.gif

I was too eager to post something interesting. A childish aproach. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

I'll be more specific in the future.

In fact, only today can I really start getting info.




Quote[/b] ]Aymar, thanks for the support lad, I was joking when saying to form a new group (you can tell that by the names I have proposed for the "new group" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif )
Well, I wasn't aware. I didn't traslate the Latin... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif




Quote[/b] ]Nowake, it's not a matter of "splitting forces", if there are some people willing to do the research for the respective faction, they would propably be others than those who already have gotten their feet wet with the "Barbarians".
Yeap, that's what I said. Extra people...




Quote[/b] ]I agree with Rosacrux that we should stay united. We should pursue our goals if we do not want RTW to go horribly wrong...
Sorry but, what could go more horribly wrong than now? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

Well, thinking about it...

Asterix? Obélix? Ideafix raging packs?

OK, I shouldn't have asked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-grin2.gif

[Parmenio]

Iberian Celts from various sources:

Brief History:

The first to arrived in Spain were a people called the Iberians from North Africa. These people would mix with the Celts who were next to settle in the region as they migrated across Europe. Together, forming what would be considered the foundation of what would be the Spanish people. Attracted by the land's mineral wealth, the Phoenicians and then later Greek Merchants also set up a number of trade colonies along the coast. The Carthaginians as inheritors of the Phoenician Empire eventually conquered the Greek settlements in Spain to seize control of the entire Southern coast. However, the Romans saw the expansion as a threat to Rome itself. This would lead to the Second Punic War and the period of Roman influence over the Iberian Peninsula that would last for six centuries.

Though the Iberians were considered second-rate troops by both the Carthaginians and Romans, they may well have taken a lack of enthusiasm to die for their colonial masters as an indication of their true capabilities. Certainly the Iberian tribes put up a tremendous struggle against the Roman occupation for some 200 years following the overthrow of Carthaginian power in Spain.

Celts, living on the central mesetas in direct contact with the Iberians, adopted many Iberian cultural fashions, but they did not organize themselves into urban settlements until the 3rd century BC.

The Celt-Iberians were tribes of mixed Iberian and Celtic stock who inhabited an area in present north-central Spain from the 3rd century BC onward . These Celtiberians inhabited the hill country between the sources of the Tagus (Tajo) and Iberus (Ebro) rivers, including most of the modern province of Soria and much of the neighbouring provinces of Guadalajara and Teruel.

In historic times the Celtiberians were composed of the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, and Lusones. The earliest population of Celtiberia was that of the southeastern Almería culture of the Bronze Age, after which came Hallstatt invaders, who occupied the area shortly before 600 BC. The Hallstatt people were in turn subjugated by the Arevaci, who dominated the neighbouring Celtiberian tribes from the powerful strongholds at Okilis (modern Medinaceli) and Numantia. The Belli and the Titti were settled in the Jalón valley, the Sierra del Solorio separating them from the Lusones to the northeast.

The material culture of Celtiberia was strongly influenced by that of the Iberian people of the Ebro valley. Horse bits, daggers, and shield fittings attest the warlike nature of the Celtiberians, and one of their inventions, the two-edged Spanish sword, was later adopted by the Romans. To the west and north of Inland Spain developed a world that classical writers described as Celtic. Iron was known from 700 BC, and agricultural and herding economies were practiced by people who lived in small villages or, in the northwest, in fortified compounds called castros.

The warriors of Celt-Iberia enjoyed a reputation as the finest barbarian mercenary infantry in the western world. They were believed to possess the finest qualities of the Celts, savage battle lust and great physical courage, along with the steadiness and organization of the more civilized Iberians. Their reputation was such that after the rout of the Carthaginians by Scipio Africanus at the Burning of the Camps in 203, the arrival of a band of only 4,000 Celt-Iberians encouraged the Carthaginians to take the field once more.

The Celtiberians first submitted to the Romans in 195 BC, but they were not completely under Roman domination until 133 BC, when Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus destroyed Numantia. The Mediterranean way of life reached the interior only after the Romans conquered Numantia. Asturias was only pacified in 19 BC.

Weapons:

Espasa : In the third century BC, Rome fought against the Iberian Celts and their iron weapons, gaining so much respect for their adversaries’ short swords that they adopted the design as their own. The sword that eventually conquered most of the known world evolved from the Gladius Hispanicus – Spanish Sword.

Falcatas: A heavy machete-like short sword similar to a greek Kopis with a single edged forward sweeping curved blade 18-20" long.

Céltico: oval celt body shield.

Caetra: small round shield.

Soliferrum: Amongst other javelins and spears, the Iberians used a heavy javelin made completely of iron, capable of punching through shields and possibly adopted by the Romans in the form of the composite iron and wood pilum.


Appearance:

The Celts in the Carthaginian army wore traditional Celtic dress. The Iberians tended to wear white linen bordered in bright colours, and fought as everything from light infantry with javelins to a heavier form of infantry that used a very heavy javelin. The Iberians also had some of the very finest horsemen who used a thrusting spear and a small round shield, a light bronze helm, they wore the same basic colours as their countrymen who fought on foot. The Iberians used a rudimentary saddle made from padded hides and held in place by a broad cinch strap. They also used a heavy iron bit to control their horses.

Iberian troops who wore mail in most instances wore a tunic of soft leather under it, which was probably either kept in its natural colour or in some instances dyed with bright natural dyes in geometric patterns. The Iberian helmet usually had a tall conical shape with a very small crest socket at the very top center. The Iberians' heavier infantry also used the scutum, which they had adopted from the Celts.

On Cavalry:

Xenophon, considered by most as the founder of classical equitation, wrote of the Iberian horses that they had the ability to gather the hind legs under the fore, falling back on their hocks and raising the forehand, so that the belly can be seen from the front. This ability, which we now call collection, was impressive in that it allowed warhorses to be swift and agile and to stop and turn quickly in any direction. The Iberian horses and their riders undoubtedly gave Xenophon his first glimpse of classical riding. Iberian cavalry was one of the most important weapons of generals from Hannibal to Julius Caesar. The Iberian horse both shaped the way mounted warfare was conducted and was shaped by it. Its speed, agility and courage were unequaled and lent themselves to the mastery of mounted fighting. The Romans were so impressed by the Iberian Celts that after meeting them in battle they adopted both their weapons and fighting style and set up remount breeding stations for their legions in Baetica (modern Andalucia) to take advantage of the fine horses to be found there. There is also mention of mares brought from the Tagus valley region (Portugal) who were described by Pliny the Elder, a Roman cavalry officer and writer, as “fine, docile and impregnated by the west wind, (which) brought forth offspring of surprising fleetness.”

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ Jan. 15 2004,17:05)]We might be able to ge a Mod to sticky a Link leading here in the Colloseum saying something like "CA please read this".

The staff who read the forums do go where it says "read this ect." just throwing an idea out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif
Thats a good idea. However, I really dont know who to contact for that. Besides we have to set an outline before showing the prototype to CA.

Attention...attention... gather around, form a column (huh?), at ease..


Please look at the faction info I have posted in this thread. Anybody opposing to the faction list? Do you want more factions, OR do you want less factions? SETTING THE FACTION LIST FROM THE BEGINNING IS CRUCIAL AS WE WILL STUDY ON THE SET FACTIONS.

When the faction list is confirmed by EVERYBODY, then we will move onto individual faction studies.

In short list your desired factions and ones that should be omitted. You can see the time frame of the game in the same post.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]The first to arrived in Spain were a people called the Iberians from North Africa.
Hey, Parmenio http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Where did you got that info? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

There were already Neolitic populations in Iberia who came from Central Europe. Way before the Celts

And I'm not refering to the Paleolitic

[Teutonic Knight]

Actually Cebei I don't think anyone has problem with the list of factions itself, it's just the way the individual factions are being portrayed. The list looks fine to me, and I think everyone's already got thier hands full anyway.

Aymar and Nowake, watch your tongues, I'll not have this turn into a brawl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

quick note:

if you want to have the banner in your sig please use the url posted by Tosa in this (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=14432) thread so we can stop sucking _Martyr_'s bandwith dry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

Guys if you ever want to move this (I am content to keep it here though, it fits in either forum) could you please PM me. It will get my attention much more.

Concerning CA-staff. AFAIK, most are busy with RTW, it is nearly impossible (an understatement) to get a response from any known CA member atm.

I think that includes Richie Skinner, TheShogun and webmaster at .com; I can't say I visit .com much, but last I heard it was also a task to get a reply from him.

Anyhow, good luck. Hope you can turn some heads.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Actually Cebei I don't think anyone has problem with the list of factions itself, it's just the way the individual factions are being portrayed. The list looks fine to me, and I think everyone's already got thier hands full anyway.


Oh well, OK then. I just dont want to see any criticisms of the factions when this ends. (ex. "why didnt we put "X"ian "Y"s?") Fine then, this brings us to the second step, which is pretty much what everybody is doing. I will have a visit to Bilkent University Library and then see what I can do.

[Teutonic Knight]

nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Monk]

Forgive me for not posting anything yet, but i have been contributing most of my knowledge to helping out the Silmarilion:TW team over in the dungeon, add to it reg work and my writting projects...right you get it I' a busy little Monk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . Let me just report to you what i am working on right now for this little "movement" as i call it.

Not to long ago Stefen PMed a link to me that gave a pretty good outline of the germanic Military order. and i have been working on coming up with unit descriptions for a number of unit types, I dunno if Stefan is doing the same but thats what i have been working on.

Thought i would give a report seeing as how i dont make it to the Monastery much, kinda shameful seeing as how i'm a monk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Revenant69]

Well, one of the books I have read so far had very little info about Dacians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif and the info it did have was in the wrong timeperiod (Trajan's wars and generally after 100 AD) which falls out of the timeline of Rome: Total War.

I am doing more research as time goes and so far my findings are insignificant. hopefully, I will hit a goldmine of information soon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Efrem Da King]

I suport the re-election of bush, so I should have this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I suport the re-election of bush, so I should have this.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_director.gif SHOO, SHOO... ...get out of this thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif


Joke... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I finally got time to do a bit of reading and what a waste of time Osprey's Romes Enemies 2: Gallic and British Celts would be better titled Galic Celts galore Some reasonable bits on British swords but nothing with evidence I can put here unless I find matching pictures (working on it when I have time). There was a quote from Caesar on British chariots though:

"In chariot fighting, the Britons drive all over the field hurling javelins and generally the terror inspired by the horses and the noise of the chariot wheels is sufficient to throw their opponent's ranks into disorder. Then, after makingf their way between the squadrans of their own cavalry, they [ie. the high class warriors riding in the chariots] jump down and engage the enemy on foot. In the meantime the charioteers retire a short distance...and place the chariots in such a position that their masters, if hard pressed...have an easy means of retreat...By daily training and practise they attain such proficiency that even on a steep slope they are able to control the horses at full gallop, and check and turn them in a moment. They can run along the chariot pole, stand on the yoke, and get back into the chariot as quick as lighning."

Well wasn't that a goldmine of information? The British chariots in TC were throwing javelins and then charging through enemy lines but that could be the team lack of knowledge, the limitations of the early game build, or the limitations of the game full stop. Having units dismount in the middle of a battle may not be possible at this time.

More reading and some searching for those swords when I get time.

[The_Emperor]

Sounds like your running into the same problems I did frogbeastegg, still it sounds like you are getting hold of similar facts. (be sure to have a look at some of my earlier posts for us to compare findings)

I did find one site that had a graphical representation of an Iron Age sword that was found. It was almoust outside of the timeframe, it was found at a burial site and seems to be well decorated. (some weapons were created for sacrificial rituals rather than for battle)

The Kirkburn Sword Iron Age, 300-200 BC (http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/goto?id=OBJ1304)

Presumably a similar style of sword was used during the later part of the period.

EDIT: The Link has been corrected.

[frogbeastegg]

I have skim read the whole thread, no time to do much more. It does look like we are agreeing which is always a good thing. I have many, many pictures of swords for this era both British and otherwise, not just pictures but diagrams of how they were found, reconstructions, comparisons with other swords of similar date, evolution trees with the swords going from one type to another over the years but, and it is a big but, they are all in books and I have no way to get them on line. Without the pictures there is no point in trying to write up the information.

The picture in your link isn't working and it is labelled as a bronze statue of a seated Amun but so far that is better than the on-line pictures I have found If I can find enough swords labelled with the appropriate find numbers and names I should be able to search using them and get better results.

[The_Emperor]

Ok, Frogbeastegg the link has been fixed.

[Teutonic Knight]

*walks into empty room*

*breaks through spider webs*

helllooooooo anyone in heeeerrree?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_eeeek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_scared.gif

[Parmenio]

Shhhh I'm still collating a pile of historical texts...

[Stefan the Berserker]

http://www.gmxattachments.net/de....3%2ETGA (http://www.gmxattachments.net/de/cgi/dfstools/Squadron3.TGA?openid=2195.1074938548&o=1672509249.1074938548&cmd=realopen&folder=%2FNeue+Dateianlagen%2F&jobid=&file=Squadron3%2ETGA)

Testing if I can use my GMX-Mediacenter to host Media...

[Stefan the Berserker]

HORRAY

* Sich freut weil jetzt Internet-Freespace zu haben * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

I can now upload Media, Essays and other random things in my Gmx-Mediacenter and make them usebale via -Url-/url- http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-builder.gif

How does the Test-Screenshot look like, it displays the "Hoghead" which is a very popular Groupformation within Germanics...

[Parmenio]

Link produced this Stefean:


Quote[/b] ] Bitte beachten Sie folgenden Hinweis:

Diese Session ist nicht mehr gültig (Timeout). Bitte schließen Sie dieses Fenster und melden Sie sich neu mit Ihrem GMX Account an.

Weitere Informationen erhalten Sie in unserer --> Online-Hilfe oder über das --> Support-Formular.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Ohno... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Please consider the following reference: This session is not valid any longer (Timeout). Please close this window and announce yourself again with your GMX account. Further information will be given --> to on-line assistance or over --> the form for support.

sorry I have a very limited German vocabular http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Cebei]

Everywhere is closed here due to an unnecessary national holiday which will be followed by another unecessary religious holiday, resulting with a total of 20 days of holiday (did you know that Turkey has the highest number and workdays of holidays in the world?).

I am available for any type of assistance in the meantime.

[TheSilverKnight]

I'll join up, if it's for a good cause http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Jan. 24 2004,16:38)]Everywhere is closed here due to an unnecessary national holiday which will be followed by another unecessary religious holiday, resulting with a total of 20 days of holiday (did you know that Turkey has the highest number and workdays of holidays in the world?).

I am available for any type of assistance in the meantime.
damn you....

[Nowake]

I haven't finished my dacian description (many sources that need compiling, there's little on the net, I use mainly books), but it'll happen any time soon.

Regards

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I also have been pressed with time, but will try to compile the data I found, as soon as possible.

[Teutonic Knight]

great everyone is busy as a beehive and am sitting in a lawnchair watching and encouraging...yup.....encouraging....

[The_Emperor]

How goes the resrearch guys?

Its been a while and I think we need an update http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[The Wizard]

Hmm, I'd like to join, but only as a moral supporter. Don't feel like research. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif



~Wiz

[frogbeastegg]

Just a small update - been doing some reading but found nothing useful. Still no luck with those sword pictures. Still not got much time.

[TheSilverKnight]

I want to join, guys I can do the Mediterranean Civ (Greeks, Romans) research. Please? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Just a remark, you should better hurry, the game is going through the final artwork and polishing phase, the creative input for new/better units has to come soon or CA will not be able to put it in if they elect to do so.
Personally, I'd try to have it done until the ides of March. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 09 2004,12:12)]Just a remark, you should better hurry, the game is going through the final artwork and polishing phase, the creative input for new/better units has to come soon or CA will not be able to put it in if they elect to do so.
Personally, I'd try to have it done until the ides of March. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
It's anoying. I'm trying to find some sica pictures (the common dacian sword, small and curved) and I can't find anything except for a small depiction on Trajan's column. Anyone of you knows a good site on stuff related to this?


Btw, I don't think it's quite in the final stages. But they're giving us more material now with the unit descritions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ Feb. 09 2004,12:08)]It's anoying. I'm trying to find some sica pictures (the common dacian sword, small and curved) and I can't find anything except for a small depiction on Trajan's column. Anyone of you knows a good site on stuff related to this?
I found one in a few seconds with google's image search: reasonable sica picture (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.angelfire.com/il2/annatar/sica.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.angelfire.com/il2/annatar/sica.html&h=276&w=212&sz=10&tbnid=YsPUjlxdfxYJ:&tbnh=108&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsica%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8) and there were a lot more results but no time to sift through them

[Nowake]

Really, I couldn't find that page; anyway, it won't do very much good, as the weapon you present is a modified version of the dacian weapon, only for the gladiator fights.

But thanks alot, hopes are higher now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif Btw, congratulations for gaining some HOF's this year, it really reflects the work you've put for the community. Keep up it up, right up.

[Teutonic Knight]

woooooosh........

[The Wizard]

*observes tumbleweeds in TK's "woooooooosh"*



~Wiz

[Teutonic Knight]

*observes random Indians running by....*

[Cebei]

Yup the neverending holiday ends tomorrow... I see that we got only 3-4 people doing the research... as I've predicted.. Can people post what they've found so far and for which factions?

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Feb. 23 2004,12:34)]Yup the neverending holiday ends tomorrow... I see that we got only 3-4 people doing the research... as I've predicted.. Can people post what they've found so far and for which factions?
very true, I'm still trying to recover from my birthday (last Friday)...



P.S.: I really liked the stuff you posted on the web, keep it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-guitarist.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ] I really liked the stuff you posted on the web, keep it up

Sure Give me 6000$ to build a studio, I can send you a new one every two days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Feb. 29 2004,09:24)]
Quote[/b] ] I really liked the stuff you posted on the web, keep it up

Sure Give me 6000$ to build a studio, I can send you a new one every two days http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
I'll get right on that m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif I'm ready. I finally finished my work on the Germanic Units and carefully confirmed my Informations. The last things that are left to do for my Sector are germanic structures and Provinces. I'm sorry Monk that I didn't implent you into the work as you might have deserved...

The Following Text is the final version how germanic Units should be:

Lancemen

--- Formed by the Frydmen of Germania, who have learned to life with the icy Winters and short Summers of their Lands, these Lancemen are known for their Sacrifice on their Masters. Julius Caesar discribes them as disciplined, hard-nosed Warriors fighting in a dense formation he called a "Phalanx". Their mantall Shields, packed one at the other, indeed supplied an almost perfect Protection while their Lances belonged to the deadlyest in the Ancient World. ---

The Germanic Lancers are similar to Hellenistic Hopilites and later English Fyrds (while the Fyrds are their decendants).

“After they had overthrown the Roman cavalry with a densely packed formation, they formed their shield wall (phalanx) and attacked our first battle line from below” (Caes. BG I, 24,2: »REIECTO NOSTRO EQUITATU, PHALANGE FACTA SUB PRIMAM NOSTRAM ACIEM SUCCESSERUNT.«).
Shortly afterwards “they quickly formed their shield wall as they are used to, and repelled our sword attack” (Caes. BG I, 52,4: »AT GERMANI CELERITER EX CONSUETUDINE SUA PHALANGE FACTA IMPETUS GLADIORUM
EXCEPERUNT.«).

Caesar here discribes a Battle he had with them under Ariovistus. As you can see Jules Caesar definatly said Phalange / Phalanx and he intends that this "Phalanx" was trained, throughout he says the Shield wall was formed "quickly".

the dreadful Germanic lances that “inflict wounds from a formidable distance” (Tac. ann. I, 64: »HASTAE INGENTES AD VULNERA FACIENDA QUAMVIS PROCUL«) Germanic graves have revealed specimens of a length of 41-45 cm with lateral cut-outs If this type of thrusting lance is mentioned they are called “enormous” or “over-long lances” (Tac. ann II, 14: »ENORMIS HASTAS«; ann. II, 21: »PRAELONGAS HASTAS«). These expressions may refer to the length of the shaft and respectively to the length and width of the point. In the battle at the Angrivarian Wall (16 AD) the Imperial Guard was not able to storm the Wall because they received severe thrusts from above, and Germanicus Caesar had to withdraw them (cf. Tac. ann. II, 20: »QUIS INPUGNANDUS AGGER, UT SI MURUM
SUCCEDERENT, GRAVIBUS SUPERNE ICTIBUS CONFLICTABANTUR. SENSIT DUX INPAREM COMMINUS PUGNAM…«). The weapons that inflicted those blows from above may well have been such “enormous” and “over-long” lances.

The Germanic Lance Tacitus mentioned is a deadly Weapon with long (about 41-45 Cm) Spearheads, making the Warriors able to break almost any Armor from the Distance.

Abilities:

- Bonus against armored Enemys
- Disciplined
- Large Shield
- Bonus against Cavallary
- Good Morale
- Good Charge



Skirmishers (Light Arms)



„As long distance weapons Germanics used javelins. Each warrior carried several of them, and threw them “extremely far” as Tacitus remarks full of admiration (Tac. Germ. 6). The “framea” that Tacitus describes (Germ. 6: “They carry spears that they call frameas, with a short and narrow, but very sharp point, very practical for use. As circumstances require they fight with the same weapon at short or long range” – »HASTAS VEL IPSORUM VOCABULO FRAMEAS GERUNT ANGUSTO ET BREVI FERRO, SED ITA ACRI ET AD USUM HABILI, UT EODEM
TELO, PROUT RATIO POSCIT, VEL COMMINUS VEL EMINUS PUGNENT.«), was used as a throwing spear as well. It was about 6 foot long, had a rather small iron head, and could be used as a throwing or thrusting weapon. Some javelins had barbed heads as grave deposits reveal.“

Along with the Framea, lightly armed germanics also used the „Sasha“ or „Sax“-Sword which Tacitus doesn’t know (but is prooved through Artifact-Founds). The Sax was a thin blade which was very sharp and easy to produce, the negative fact is that it would directly break if a Combatant tried to block the enemy’s Strike.

Abilities:

Fast
Small Shield
Good Morale

Comitati Lancemen / Comitati Swordsmen

„...whom they call soldurii, the conditions of whose companionship are that they share all the conveniences of life with those to whose friendship they have devoted themselves and if anything violent happen to them, either they endure the same destiny together, or commit suicide: up to now, in the memory of men, there has never been found anyone who refused to die, upon the death of one to whose friendship he had so devoted himself,..“ – Caesar about gaulish Soldurii

„They transact no public or private business without being armed. it is not, however, usual for anyone to wear arms till the state has recognized his power to use them. Then in the presence of the council one of the chiefs, or the young man's father, or some kinsman, equips him with a shield and a spear. These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested. Up to this time he is regarded as a member of a household, after-wards as a member of the commonwealth. Very noble birth or great services rendered by the father secure for lads the rank of a chief; such lads attach themselves to men of mature strength and of long approved valour. It is no shame to be seen among a chief's followers. Even in his escort there are gradations of rank, dependent on the choice of the man to whom they are attached. These followers vie keenly with each others as to who shall rank first with his chiefs, the chiefs as to who shall have the most numerous and the bravest followers. It is an honour as well as a source of strength to be thus always surrounded by a large body of picked youths; it is an ornament in peace and a defence in war. And not only in his own tribe but also in the neighboring states it is the renown and glory of a chief to be distinguished for the number and valour of his followers, for such a man is courted by embassies, is honoured with presents, and the very prestige of his name ofen settles a war.“ - Tacitus

As Tacitus refers here the Germanics had a very Warlike Aritocrathy, those „Fellows“ (Comitati in Latin) where rich Landowners and/or People who have been regarded for their Noble behaviour. The Soldurii and the Comitati were identical, expecially in Belgicae and Raetia were Germanics and Gauls lived together the romans didn’t make any diffrence between them. Aslike Knights have been in the Middleages, also Comitati within the germanics had one problem: Their personal thirst for Honor and „Glamour“.

That means -> It wasn’t enough to have a sword, it must have been a beautiful and good sword. It wasn’t enough to have a Helmet, it must be a decorated Helmet
As Tacitus said: „These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested.“. Their Weapons and Armor had become a Symbol for their Aristocrathic-Status, expecially their Swords and the animal-shaped Helmets (see Pictures).



I combined all neccessary Details to one Picture:


Much stronger as on the previous Pictures (Drawings from a history-Book, and two aritifacts) this Picture provides a good Image of a single Comitatus. Wearing a beautiful Shirt with Ornaments, a decorated Helmet (Horsehead in this Case), a Cloak, Armor, Belts with golden Clasps, a Woolthrowser with Letherstrings (see his Knee), a good sword and a Rune-decorated Shield. A very helpful Case is that the Helmet for the Character Theoden in the Movie „Lord of the Rings“ was designed after the Image of the germanic’s Animal-Helmet, the two Pictures below show this Helmet and contain an Hyperlink to larger Images on the Internet. The Movie’s Helmet can be seen as an example, the Design for RTW’s own Comitati-Helmet would look best by beeing similar to this one.

As you’ll certainly have recognised on the Pictures the Comitati were no pure Swordsmen, identical to Knights or Samurai they fought in various organisation Types. Through there’s no place for them all they must be seperated to their main groups: Spearmen, Swordsmen and Cavallary. Making a Comitati Cavallary wasn’t sensible for Gameplay, through the germanics already have the Gastiz as their heavy Cavallary.

So I would suggest to make two Units: Comitati Lancemen and Comitati Swordsmen. While the Lancemen should be displayed as an improoved Version of the „normal“ Lancemen, with Comitati-charcteristics (similar to armored Spearmen compared to normal Spearmen in Viking Inavasions). The Swordsmen on the other Side are needed to form a counterpart against the roman Legionaires, so they need to be an Elite of Warriors.

Abilities (Spearmen)

Armored
Good Defense
Good Morale
Good Melee
Large Shield
Bonus against Cavallary

Abilities (Swordsmen)

Armored
Good Charge
Good Defense
Perfect Morale
Perfect Melee
Shield

Gastiz Cavallary

Somehow many Comitati followed „invitations“ of Warlords to fight for a reward and became Mercenaries. Called „Gastiz“, which ment Guest these Men spend most of their Lifetime in Warfare. The many succsessful Battles brought them a high social status and wellfare, resulting that they formed the most expensive but also most efficent germanic Trooptype. In the Society they were seen as the perfected Comitati, sacrificing their whole life in Combat after Tiwaz’s Prayers (In negative Effect this made them very arrogant and difficult to command). The Romans recognised the Power of the Gastiz and „invited“ them byself many times: Jules Caesar hired these Cavallary to fight in Alesia and the famous Arminius was the commander of Gastiz in roman Service. This caused that they used strongly romanised Arms and Armor, diffrently to the two lower Comitati Types.

They need no further discription, through they chare most Charcteristics with the two other Comitati types.

Abilities

Armored
Perfect Charge
Good Defense
Perfect Morale
Good Melee
Uncontrolled

For the case of the Units already created, I can confirm Barbarian Archers, Barbarian Axemen and Barbarian Cavallary for beeing Historic in sight of the Germanics. Those Units should be kept in.

-----------

The Report lacks all of it pictures which are necessary... Who wants to have the original Word-Document may please send me an Email...

What are your thoughts about that now? I think that army can defeat the romans in RTW, won't it?

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 03 2004,08:34)]I'm sorry Monk that I didn't implent you into the work as you might have deserved...
That's fine Stefan,

I sent you a PM a long time ago about this, i think a month maybe more. But you never replied or answered my question so i asumed you didn't want/need my help. oh well, i guess i'll go back to lurking in the shadows. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

btw nice info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Cebei]

So can we* actually LIST the factions we* have done so far?

Stefan --> Germanic

we = working staff - me

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] (Monk @ Mär. 03 2004,19:54)]
Zitat[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 03 2004,08:34)]I'm sorry Monk that I didn't implent you into the work as you might have deserved...
That's fine Stefan,

I sent you a PM a long time ago about this, i think a month maybe more. But you never replied or answered my question so i asumed you didn't want/need my help. oh well, i guess i'll go back to lurking in the shadows. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

btw nice info http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Sorry Buddy, Hopefully you think well of that Things here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Some Extra-Info: Friedrich Giesler misunderstood the "Centeni" as some Kind of Unit, indeed it's an organisations Type. Every Region of Germania had to provide hundred young Men for a compulsed Militery Service, of course having served in the Army was seen as a great Honor.

There could be an exclusive Building called "Hundredman Eldary" produceing +2 Honor to reflect that System, or an historic Event if RTW still favors that Feature from MTW.

As far as for Geography of the Germanics, I must also against blame CA: Germanics arn't Germans Todays or 19th Century Borders of Germany and Austria-Hungary don't reflect the Germanic Territory. I'll make have to make a new Map...

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]So can we* actually LIST the factions we* have done so far?

Stefan --> Germanic

we = working staff - me



Well The_Emperor & frogbeastegg - Doing Celtic Britons.

I think we have exhausted ourselves after posting so many facts first time around (but lately I have been remarkably busy).

Should anyone else have any useful information on the Britons that hasn't been covered already ont he previous pages of this thread please feel free to post it.

Shall we summarise and draw up possible unit types then?

[Cebei]

Germanic --> Stefan

Celtic Britons --> The_Emperor & frogbeastegg





I am asking this because I will work on the untouched factions.

[Teutonic Knight]

me = too busy with school to do research, so watching and encouraging from lawn chair...

[AqConsul]

Hello all I wish to join your cause If you have no objections I will add the sig to mine in an attempt to get others to change their views Tell me anything if you need help...

Consul

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (AqConsul @ Mar. 05 2004,20:06)]Hello all I wish to join your cause If you have no objections I will add the sig to mine in an attempt to get others to change their views Tell me anything if you need help...

Consul
we'd love to have any help we can get probably the best thing you can do is just to wear the bannner in your sig to show CA the following we have...

[Shahed]

Hi friends http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Well this is a GREAT project but one question:
why lobbby the autheticity of one culture and not the others ?

[The Wizard]

Are you referring to the name? Europa Barbarorum or rather Europe of the Barbarians?

Well, I think we are a bit scared of a concentration upon the Roman and to a lesser degree Hellenistic (read: Successor) kingdoms, leaving the other cultures innacurately depicted. This includes Parthians, ESPECIALLY Egyptians, and all the more northernly peoples such as Germanics, Dacians and Celts.



~Wiz

[frogbeastegg]

I have just finished reading the last of my 'useful' books, from that you may guess how much useful info I found - none. Aside from the tiny bit I posted ages ago most of these books either had information that was blatant rubbish (woad really does make you invincible) or gave no sources/quoted no evidence so it can't be considered reliable. The few bits that did have good evidence are of no worth without the appropriate pictures to back them up. All in all, Gah Quite what I can do now I don't know, rummage about the net I suppose.

First of the new barbarian unit descriptions is up, any improvement over the old ones? Germanic tribes are not something I know much about, aside from the topknot hairdo, which is present on the new model.

[The Wizard]

Is the position for Parthians still open?

If so, I'll happily do that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



~Wiz

[AqConsul]

Is there anything that I can do to help? Just give me something to do...and I will do it for our cause...

[Teutonic Knight]

alright here is the list of people doing what:

The groups so far:


Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake


Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri


Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight


I'm sure we can see if we can set up other areas of research...



Quote[/b] ]Hi friends

Well this is a GREAT project but one question:
why lobbby the autheticity of one culture and not the others ?

as you can see above, we are researching not one, but more than several cultures...

[The Wizard]

Parthians are not Roman, so hence they are "barbarian", if we use the Greek term. Or even the Persian term, who saw Greeks as barbarian.



~Wiz

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ Mar. 06 2004,15:41)]Parthians are not Roman, so hence they are "barbarian", if we use the Greek term. Or even the Persian term, who saw Greeks as barbarian.



~Wiz
by definition any non Graeco-Roman is a barbarian...
So, you might want to contact Stefan and see if he minds setting up another category for you Eastern freaks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[AqConsul]

Is there any research that you all wish me to do?

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (AqConsul @ Mar. 07 2004,18:01)]Is there any research that you all wish me to do?
what do you want to do? Whatever that is, go do it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[AqConsul]

I dont know who you all have already done, or who you need to have be done...I dont even know all that are in the Game...

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]dont know who you all have already done, or who you need to have be done...I dont even know all that are in the Game...


I admit we suffer from lack of organization, but so far we have this list.

Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake


Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri


Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight

[AqConsul]

Could I help with the Germanic Research? All I have to do is research the types of weapons and armour they use right?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] (AqConsul @ Mär. 10 2004,21:59)]Could I help with the Germanic Research? All I have to do is research the types of weapons and armour they use right?
No problem, I'll pass you what I got so far if you PN me your Email-adress...

-------

I think it is time to arrange that our Info reaches CA, through for getting what we want into ROME until Autumm time is simply running out.

What I think we could do is:

1. Sending PNs to the Developers active at the Org for getting them to watch what we do.

2. Sending our Information to CA's Customerservice-Email, probably they pass the Matirial to the developers.

3. Print out the whole thing an send it via Mail to CA's postal Adress.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 20 2004,11:59)]
Quote[/b] (AqConsul @ Mär. 10 2004,21:59)]Could I help with the Germanic Research? All I have to do is research the types of weapons and armour they use right?
No problem, I'll pass you what I got so far if you PN me your Email-adress...

-------

I think it is time to arrange that our Info reaches CA, through for getting what we want into ROME until Autumm time is simply running out.

What I think we could do is:

1. Sending PNs to the Developers active at the Org for getting them to watch what we do.

2. Sending our Information to CA's Customerservice-Email, probably they pass the Matirial to the developers.

3. Print out the whole thing an send it via Mail to CA's postal Adress.
Well, I've finished my research. I still have to finish organizing my info. I'm about 60% done. I think that a day will be enough for the rest. I hope to present it tomorrow.

It's a somewhat long post so I don't want to have to edit it to correct. Please wait one more day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-embarassed.gif

[Nowake]

I made something that follows Psycho thread on gauls. But I firstly made it in romanian, so I have to translate it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

OK. Just an update. Good news and bad news.

Good news: I have the text 99% complete. Just correcting a few grammar mistakes and improving English.

Bad news: I can't work on it now. I will have it ready in a few hours.

[The Wizard]

So, is it ok if I do research on the Parthians, a people I personally consider 'barbarians' because they considered themselves both Greek and Achaemenid but were neither, thus contributing nothing to the Persian culture and letting Hellenism expand? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

It’s finally finished. After a bit more of 200 web pages of “historical” info (some very far from it), due to the lack, on my part, of books about the subject, I’ve compiled some good info that will shed some light on the Iberian and Celtiberian issue.

This post starts with a small historical analysis on Celts (the greatest cultural influence throughtout Europe before and during the early stages of Roman conquest), then with a small set of characteristics concerning the Iberian Peninsula and their populations. It closes with a brief account of the Iberian Peninsula wars until Roman rule was installed, and finishes with a description of the units that should more closelly relate to historical data.



The Celts

“The warrior class

Most primitive societies had a warrior class: both the early Greeks and the Romans did. The Celts were no exception. Their warriors were drawn from what we would describe as the middle and upper class. The warrior class did the actual fighting: the free poor served as chariot drivers. The Celt was a warrior in the heroic sense. Everything had to be larger than life. He lived for war. His glorification of bravery often led him to recklessness. Part of a warriors ritual was to boast of his victories, and fighting between warriors was an important part of life.

Armour and weapons
Most Celts scorned the use of armour and before about 300 B.C. preferred to fight naked. Some Celtic tribes still fought naked at the battle of Telamon in 225 B.C. The Celt was renowned as a swords-man but he also used javelins and spears. Two spears which were found at La Tene in Switzerland were nearly 2.5m long. His only protection was his large shield which was usually oval. The suggestion that the Celt wore heavy bracelets in battle has to be questioned, as it is hard to understand how they would stay on his arm whilst he wielded his sword. Dionysius tells us that in battle the Celts whirled their swords above their heads, slashing the air from side to side, then struck downwards at their enemies as if chopping wood. It was this use of the sword that so terrified their enemies. The Celts did not fight in a rabble as is so often supposed. They were organized in companies. This can be proved by their use of standards.
Headhunters
The Celt was a head-hunter. In battle he would cut off the head of his fallen enemy and often hang it from his horse's neck. After battle he would display the severed head at the entrance to his temple. The severed head is a constant theme in Celtic art. At the battle of Beneventumin 214 B.C. the Roman general Gracchus had to order his army of freed slaves (presumably Celts) to stop collecting heads and get on with the fighting. After a battle the Celts would often dedicate their enemies weapons to the gods and throw them into a river or lake. The hundreds of weapons that have been dredged from the Lake of Neuchatel at La Tene were such offerings. In fact the site at La Tene has revealed so many Celtic artifacts that its name has been given to the whole Celtic culture.
The chiefs
The chiefs and the wealthiest Celts often did wear armour particularly when they came into contact with the Greeks and Romans. They often adopted items of Greek or Roman armour. A pair of greaves were found in the chieftain's grave at Ciumesti. Several graves have been found in Northern Italy which contain Etruscan armour and Celtic weapons. Before a battle the chiefs would ride out, in front of the army clashing their weapons on their shields, proclaiming their great deeds and challenging the enemy to single combat. Caesar describes the British as dressed in skins (meaning leather) and decorated with woad, a blue dye. Some tattooed skin from a grave of this period suggests that the Britons were tattooed in blue.“
Peter Connolly



The Celtiberians and the Lusitanians

Hispania

The Iberian Peninsula comprises an elevated central plateau whose climate is continental and whose sparse rainfall makes it suitable for pasturage rather than agriculture. On the north and south are high mountains, forested in antiquity—the Pyrenees and Sierra Nevada, respectively. Lower interior mountains border fertile river valleys—Baetis (Guadalquivir) and Ebro—that lead down to fertile coastal plains. Hispanic agriculture was noted for its cereals, wines, and especially olive oil, while flax was a specialty of the Ebro Valley. Hispania's mountains were particularly abundant in minerals—copper, iron, and, in the Sierra Morena, prodigious amounts of silver. There were good harbors on the southern coast at Gades and Carthago Nova. Celtiberians inhabited the north-central plateau, to the west were Lusitanians, and throughout the rest of the peninsula lived some 20 other independent peoples. (For the other area of the empire—the Balkan Peninsula, Asia Minor, Syria, and North Africa.


Hispania and the Roman conquest

Civilization in the Iberian Peninsula dates back to the Stone Age. The Basques may be descended from the prehistoric humans whose art has been preserved in the caves at Altamira. They antedated the Iberians, who mixed with Celtic invaders at an early period. Because of its mineral and agricultural wealth and its position guarding the Strait of Gibraltar, Hispania was known to the Mediterranean peoples from very early times. The Phoenicians passed through the strait and established (9th cent. B.C.) colonies in Andalusia, notably at Cádiz and Tartessus (possibly the biblical Tarshish). Later the Carthaginians settled on the east coast and in the Balearic Islands, where Greek colonies also sprang up. In the 3d cent. B.C., the Carthaginians under Hamilcar Barca began to conquer most of the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearics and established Cartagena as capital.
The Roman victory over Hannibal in the second of the Punic Wars (218–201 B.C.) resulted in the expulsion of the Carthaginians. The Romans conquered E and S Hispania, but met strong resistance elsewhere, notably in the north. The fall (133 B.C.) of Numantia marked the end of organized resistance, and by the 1st cent. A.D. Roman control was virtually complete. Except for the Basques, the Iberian population became thoroughly romanized, perhaps more so than any subject population. Roman rule brought political unity, law, and economic prosperity.


Numantia

Ancient settlement, Hispania, near the Durius (now Douro) River and north of modern Soria. Numantia played a central role in the Celt-Iberian resistance to Roman conquest. Its inhabitants withstood repeated Roman attacks from the time of Cato the Elder’s campaign (195 B.C.) until Scipio Aemilianus finally took the city in 133 B.C., after an eight-month blockade, thus completing the conquest of Hispania. Archaeologists have uncovered the remains of Roman camps and evidence of settlement dating back to the Bronze Age.


Lusitania

Roman province in the Iberian Peninsula. As constituted (c.A.D. 5) by Augustus it included all of modern central Portugal as well as much of W Hispania. The province took its name from the Lusitani, a group of warlike tribes who, despite defeats, resisted Roman domination until their great leader, Viriatus, was killed (139 B.C.) by treachery. In the 1st cent. B.C. they joined in supporting Sertorius, who set up an independent state in Hispania. The old identification of Portugal with Lusitania and of the ancestors of the Portuguese with the Lusitanians (hence Camões’s great epic was entitled Os Lusíadas) is now largely ignored, but the creation of Lusitania may have had a faint echoing effect in the setting up of the separate kingdom of Portugal many centuries later.


Viriatus

d. 139 B.C., leader of the Lusitani (see Lusitania). One of the survivors of the massacre of the Lusitani by the Roman praetor Servius Sulpicius Galba, Viriatus rose as a popular leader and persuaded his countrymen to resist Roman rule. He gathered an army and in 147 B.C. defeated the Romans. During the next two years he established control over a considerable area. One Roman defeat followed another. The victories of Viriatus encouraged the Celtiberians to renew their resistance to Rome. The senate then sent an army under Fabius Maximus Servilianus, which Viritus succeeded in trapping. Instead of destroying this army, he concluded a peace and allowed the Romans to leave. For this act of clemency he was declared a friend of Rome by the senate. In 139, however, the successor of Servilianus, Servilius Caepio, with the tacit consent of the senate, renewed the war. Viriatus, probably swayed by his countrymen, who were weary of the war, opened negotiations with Caepio, who brought the war to an end by bribing Viriatus’ emissaries to kill him. His rule collapsed after his assassination.

Bartleby’s Encyclopedia of World History, Sixth Edition 2001



“ROME AND HISPANIA.-THE NUMANTINE WAR (206-133)
Africanus the elder left Hispania in 206. After a provincial government of nine years (206-197), the country was divided into two provinces, separated by the IBÉRUS (Ebro), and each province was assigned to a praetor. It was some time, however, before Hispania was really brought into a state of complete peace and order. The mountains and forests were a formidable obstacle to the Roman legions, and favored guerilla warfare, which makes conquest slow and laborious.
The most warlike of the Hispanic tribes was the CELTIBÉRI, who occupied the interior of the peninsula. They were always uncertain and intractable, continually breaking out into revolt. In 195, Cato the elder put down a rebellion led by them. He established more firmly the Roman power east of the Ibérus. He disarmed the inhabitants of this part of Hispania, and compelled all from the Pyrenees to the Guadalquivir to pull down their fortifications.
Still the smouldering fires of rebellion were not extinguished, for, sixteen years later (179), we find TIBERIUS SEMPRONIUS GRACCHUS, the father of the famous Gracchi, as Governor of Hispania, fighting the troublesome Celtibéri. He captured over one hundred of their towns, but tempered his victories with moderate measures, showing himself greater in peace than in war. He granted to the poorer classes lands on favorable conditions, and did much to produce contentment among the natives. But farther west, in the valleys of the Douro and Tagus, and in Lusitania (Portugal), there seems to have been constant warfare.
In 154, MUMMIUS, the same who eight years later sacked Corinth, was Governor of Farther Hispania. His defeat by the Lusitanians encouraged the Celtibéri to revolt again, and there followed another defeat, with a massacre of many Roman citizens. Two years later (152), CLAUDIUS MARCELLUS avenged these losses, founded Corduba, and governed the country humanely. His successors, LUCIUS LUCULLUS and SERVIUS GALBA, were so cruel and grasping as to drive the Lusitanians into another open rebellion, headed by VIRIÁTHUS, a bold and daring bandit. During seven years (147-140) he defeated again and again the armies sent against him. The Celtibéri joined his standards, and Hispania seemed likely to slip from the Romans. The only check to these successes was during the command of METELLUS MACEDONICUS (143); when he was recalled, matters returned to their former condition.
In 140, the Consul Mancínus was obliged to capitulate, and, to save himself and his army, made a treaty which the Senate refused to sanction.
Viriáthus was finally (139) assassinated by persons hired by the Consul Caepio; his people were then subdued, and the government was ably conducted (138) by DECIMUS JUNIUS BRUTUS.
THE NUMANTINE WAR (143-133).
The Celtibéri, however, were still in arms. The strong city of NUMANTIA, the capital of one of their tribes, witnessed more than one defeat of a Roman Consul before its walls (141-140). Finally Rome sent out her best general, Africanus the younger.
After devoting several months to the disciplining of his troops, he began (134) a regular siege of the place. It was defended with the utmost bravery and tenacity, until, forced by the last extreme of famine, it surrendered (133). The inhabitants were sold as slaves, and the town was levelled to the ground. The victor was honored with the title of NUMANTÍNUS.
The fall of Numantia gave Rome a hold upon the interior of Hispania, which was never lost. The country now, with the exception of its northern coast, was nominally Roman territory. Several towns were established with Latin municipal rights _(municipia)_, and, on the whole, order was maintained. Along the coast of the Mediterranean there sprang up many thriving and populous towns, which became centres of civilization to the neighboring districts, and were treated by Rome rather as allies than as subjects. Some of them were allowed to coin the silver money of Rome. The civilizing process, due to Roman influence, went on rapidly in these parts, while the interior remained in barbarism.
In 105 the peninsula was overrun by the Cimbri, a barbarous race from the north. The country was ravaged, but finally saved by the brave Celtibéri, who forced the invaders back into Gaul.”
ROBERT F. PENNELL, The History Net – Ancient History


Lusitania and the Lusitanians:

“To the north of river Tagus we find Lusitania, the land of the greatest of Iberian tribes, that the Romans fought for a long time. To the south, Lusitania is bounded by the river Tagus: to the west by the ocean; to the east by the Carpetani, Vettoni, Vaccei; and to the North, by the Gallaeci, all of them very well known tribes. As for other tribes, they need not be mentioned, because they are small and of no importance. Contrary to what happens today, the Gallaeci were also called Lusitanni by some. To the east, the Gallaeci’s territory is confined by the Asturian’s and Celtiberian’s. The others are only confined by the Celtiberian’s territory. The length of Lusitania is of 3000 stadiums, being the width much smaller, that is the distance between the easternborder and the coast in the opposite side. The eastern part of Lusitania is high and arid, but the low regions are flat until they reach the sea, with the exception of some low mountain ranges(…).

The country of which we speak (Lusitania), is fertile and crossed by small and large rivers, all with their springs in the east and flowing paralel to the river Tagus. They are navigable in the greatest extent of their length and contain a great quantity of auriferous sand. After Tagus, the most important rivers are Mundas, only navigable in a short strech, and Vacua. After these, the Douro, coming from afar, crosses Numantia and many villages of Celtiberians and Vaccei, and it’s navigable by great ships for 800 stadiums. “

Strabo of Amasya (Pontus), Greek historian, 63 BC - 24 AD


“The Lusitanians are the strongest amongst Iberians; to war, they carry very small shields, made out of Esparto (a natural hard vegetable fiber), with which can easely defend their bodies. During battle they wield it skilfully, moving it from one side to the other of their bodies, defending themselves with hability from every blow that falls upon them. They also use spears, entirely made of iron with harpoon-shaped tips, and ware helms and a sword very similar to the Celtiberians; they trow their spears with precision and to a great distance, very frequently causing grevious wounds. They are swift while moving and fast while running, so they flee and chase quickly (…). With these light armours, being able to run very fast and being very sharp-minded, they can only be defeated with difficulty. They consider the rocks and ranges their homeland and so seek refuge in them, because they are impracticable to large and heavy armies. So, because of that, the Romans, who have organized countless expeditions against them, although being able to counter their daring, have not, dispite of their commitment, been able to end their pillaging.”

Diodorus Siculus of Sicily, Sicilian historian, 80 BC - 20 AD


“They say that the Lusitanians are skilled in ambushes and chasses, swift, quick and sthealthy; they wield small shields two feet wide and concave in their outside, being manouvered with the help of two straps around the neck, and, so it seems, without grips. Beyond that they use daggers or knifes. Most of them wears linen armours and leather caps, very few others mail armours and three feathered helms. Some infantrymen also use greeves, and each of them carries several short spears; some of them with bronze tips.”

Strabo of Amasya (Pontus), Greek historian, 63 BC - 24 AD



It was somewhat difficult (to say the least) to organize pertinent information about weaponery and military organization among Celtiberian and Iberian tribes. That was particulary evident with Lusitanians, due to the relative lack of historical records about them. Celtiberian tribes are more documented, due to their earlier contact with Carthaginians and Romans. Another difficult aspect we must take into consideration is the fact that, like many other “barbarians”, there wasn’t a standardization in equipment among Celtiberian and Iberian soldiers. Once again, this is even more obvious when dealing with Lusitanians. Personal wealth, weapon or armour preference, as well as the will for warriors to distiguish themselves from others, were deciding factors to increase variability and confusion. All of this makes the work of an EB researcher a more ambiguous and frustating task. The unit, armour and weapon standardization of a TotalWar game doesn’t suit historical precision (or imprecision should we say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif ). What this means is that, amongst the great variability of equipment among warriors, some aproximations must be done for the sake of simplicity. So, due to the well known roots of social organization among Celtic tribes, we can infer what type of military structure was used among the Iberian Peninsula’s armies. Although only small cultural diferences existed between Iberians and Celtiberian tribes, their war processes were somewhat different. The Celtiberians relied in a more organized type of warfare. They used effective spear and sword infantry units (both recruited by Hannibal) as well as various types of cavalry. The Carthaginians rellied on them troughout their wars with Rome. They also rellied on the famous Belearic Slingers. Iberians (specially Lusitanians) on the other hand, due to the particular type of terrain they fought on and the enemies they faced, used more frequently light infantry (mostly javelin skirmishers) and light cavalry (mostly javelin skirmishers too), quite adapt to the type of ambush and guerrilla warfare they sucessfully adopted against the Romans.

I tried not to allow innacurate or “imaginative” info to deviate the search for historical accurate data. Bare in mind that, although some of my conclusions might be viewed as innacurate, due to the variety of weapons, armours and terrains, they are, IMHO, perfectely feasible and based on facts, unlike “imaginative” work like the now famous Iberian Bull Warrior helmet… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

A brief description of the units that are the most accurate possible, relating to the scarcity of records and the variability of unit composition, follows. I decided not to fall in temptation and use every available weapon, armour or equipment to “create” units, but instead to relate the most probable look and habilities of historical descripted ones. The text is organized to correspond to a game description.

You can find graphical information here:

The Celts (http://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/war2.htm)

Lusitanian Weapons (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_02.asp)

Lusitanian Warriors (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_03.asp)

Los Iberos (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos.htm)

Ancient Hispanic Armies (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_52_figure_1.htm)





Lusitanian (Iberian) Units (All bearded and with long hairs. All had boots made of intertwined wool and boar leather. All used a body-length wool cape.):


-Lusitanian Skirmishers (similar to Greek Peltasts or Spanish Javelinmen): Wearing the Sago (a knee-high linen or wool tunic), without helmet or chest protection, these sheperds are ocasional warriors, recruited from the poorest of the Lusitanian population. They use the Sude (a completelly wooden javelin hardned by fire, with sharped wooden tips in both ends). When these are spent, only their Rhanda (knife with 20cm blade) and their speed can afford them some protection. As any light infantry, they are vulnerable to cavalry.

Armed with Sude.
Sude good against armour.
Very weak defense.
Poor morale.
Very fast.
Can hide in the open.


-Lusitanian Warband Infantry (Coetrati– the Romans called them this because of the Coetra – the small shield they used): Although not professional warriors, these men are socially wealthier and more confident than Lusitanian Skirmishers, as well as more used to war due to occasional fights with other tribes. They wear the Sago and the Cudo or Galea (an hard leather head protection, that only leaves the face and ears uncovered), these warriors make ideal skirmishers skilled in the use of their Tragula (a javelin with a very sharp blade and 2 opposing hooks, existing in varied sizes. The smaller ones are very effective against armour). They also wield a spear with a large barbed blade, allowing them to hold their own against cavalry. When their Tragula are spent, their Falcata (a double-curve single-edged sword) and Machoera (dagger - the Pugio was the Roman name for dagger) or Rhanda (knife with 20cm blade), can be used effectivelly to strike down unorganized foes, while the small 2 feet wide round shield (Coetra, Pelta or Peltra) they hold in their hands (with two leather straps around the neck), affords them some protection in hand-to-hand combat.

Armed with Tragula.
Tragula very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Good morale.
Fast.
Ambush capabilities.


-Lusitanian Guard (Ambacti): These men are of higher birth, forming the faithfull followers of Lusitanian chieftans and bound religiously by a promisse of loyalty. They are used to war and so, are skilled and brave. Wearing full protection bronze helmets (with a crest of horse's mane) with the Bucula (bronze face mask) and the Perponto (a chest protection made of an intertwined mix of linen, thick wool and hard leather straps) over their Sago, as well as Ocrêas (hard leather greaves), these men are used to combat and have as their main weapons the Gesso (a small, very light, long-range javelin, effectivelly a dart, with a large double-edged leaf-shaped blade), the Falcata and the Coetra, as well as the Machoera or Rhanda. They are skilled, hardy and very competent in hand-to-hand combat, which makes them effective against the best troops the enemy has to offer.

Armed with Gesso.
Gesso good against armour (longer range than javelins).
Very good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.
Ambush capabilities.


-Lusitanian Cavalry (Mounted Ambacti): Although not a numerous unit of Lusitanian armies, these cavalrymen are fundamental as scouts and, most of all, as good skirmishers. As Ambacti, these men are of higher birth and bound religiously by a promisse of loyalty. However, they are the wealthier amongst the population, allowing them to use and maintain horses. Lusitanian horses are known for their agility and speed (Romans say that the Lusitanian mares have been fecundated by the wind). These warriors are used to war and so, motivated. They wear full protection bronze helmets (with a crest of horse's mane) with the Bucula (bronze face mask), the Perponto over their Sago, and Ocrêas. They use as their main weapons the Gesso, the Falcata and the Coetra. They also carry the Machoera or Rhanda. They are courageous and competent, but as with any medium cavalry, should use their skirmishing hability and speed in combat to avoid spear infantry.

Armed with Gesso.
Gesso good against armour (longer range than javelins).
Good charge.
Good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.
Fast (cav speed).




Celtiberian Units (All clean-shaven and wearing leather sandals):


-Celtiberian Slingers (the Balearic were the most famous of them): Wearing a short linen tunic, without helmet or chest protection, these warriors are very effective when using their slings. Fast, due to their light equipment, and with longer range than javelin equipped troops, they are ideal harassers of enemy heavy infantry. Their Falcata and Machoera can be used effectivelly to strike down unorganized foes, while the small 2 feet wide round shield Coetra, affords some protection in hand-to-hand combat. As any light infantry, they are vulnerable to cavalry.

Armed with slings (with stone projectiles).
Projectiles good against armour.
Weak defense.
Fast.


-Celtiberian Warriors: These occasional warriors make effective swordsmen. The constant warring amongst tribes makes them rugged and hardy. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair) and round bronze breastplates above their short linen tunic. The Falcata and the Coetra can be very effective in hand-to-hand combat. The Machoera is also used as a last ditch defense. Although not professionals, they are competent in hand-to-hand combat.

Good attack.


-Celtiberian Light Infantry: These men are hardned warriors and constitute the bulk of Celtiberian armies. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair) and round bronze breastplates above their short linen tunic. Their main weapons are the spear and the Solifera (a full-metal heavy javelin). The characteristic Gallic oval shield, is used for protection. They use it in conjunction with the sword the Romans called Gladius Hispaniensis (and would later adopt) for close combat. They fight in close, supported formation, although not in great units like the Greek Phalanx. These close formations, their spears and large shields, make them the reliable mainstay of Celtiberian armies.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Very good attack.
Good defense.
Good morale.


-Celtiberian Heavy Infantry: These men are hand picked warriors, choosen among the bravest and most skilled men of the population. Proud, skilled and bold, they are a fearfull sight for any enemy. Wearing partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a crest), scale armour woven to hard leather, bronze forearm protections and bronze Ocrêas, these men have as their main weapons the spear, the Solifera (a full-metal heavy javelin) and the Gladius Hispaniensis. The characteristic Gallic oval shield, is used for protection and they also carry the Machoera. They fight in close, supported formation, although not in great units like the Greek Phalanx. Being well armoured, using tight formations and being superbly skilled and confident, they form the fierce elite units of Celtiberian armies.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Excelent attack.
Very good defense.
Very good morale.


-Celtiberian Light Cavalry: Celtiberian armies are known for their superb infantry, not by their cavalry. However, this is not due to the fact that their cavalry is of poor quality. These cavalrymen make good scouts, but also good skirmishers. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair), and a short linen tunic, without chest protection. Their weapons are the Solifera, the Falcata and the Coetra. Although competent, as with any light cavalry, they should use their skirmishing hability and speed in combat to avoid spear infantry.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Good charge.
Fast (cav speed).


-Celtiberian Nobles: These men form the highest social class among Celtiberians. They are wealthier and as such, well equipped. They are also skilled and brave horsemen. These cavalrymen are mainly used as a shock force and, although not effective against organized heavy infantry, they are superb against lighter infantry troops, as well as against enemy light cavalry. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a crest), scale armour woven to hard leather, bronze forearm protections and bronze Ocrêas. Their main weapon is the lance. They also use the Falcata and the Coetra. They also carry the Machoera. They are courageous and skilled, but as any cavalry, should use their speed to escape the grasp of spear infantry.

Very good charge.
Good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.



This concludes my contribution for Europa Barbarorum. I would like to hear your comments, if you think anything is wrong.


EDIT: Added Roman historians quotes. Minor corrections and adjustments.

[AqConsul]

Very...thurough Very nice What do I need to do, and what have you all done for the Germans?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Celtiberian Nobles

Similar to Comitatii I posted for germanics, additionally there are the Soldurii of the Gauls... Hmmm, maybe there could be made fewer Units to display all Noblemen-Warriors for all Celto-Slavic Factions ?

AqConsul, just follow where you see a Gap in whats done so far...

Wiz - EB is a volunteer group, anybody can join and do what he wants for himself. Just go ahead

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (AqConsul @ Mar. 24 2004,21:34)]Very...thurough Very nice
Thanks But, I will still have to colate some Roman writters quotes about Lusitanians and Celtiberians, as well as some minor corrections...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 25 2004,10:33)]
Quote[/b] ]Celtiberian Nobles

Similar to Comitatii I posted for germanics, additionally there are the Soldurii of the Gauls... Hmmm, maybe there could be made fewer Units to display all Noblemen-Warriors for all Celto-Slavic Factions ?
I agree that they must be similar, but since there are different "barbarian" factions, they really shouldn't have similar units.

I still have to go and get some more info. I'm going to edit and perfect my post today and tomorrow, with some new readings I have been able to get in these last few days...

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Mar. 25 2004,16:33)]Wiz - EB is a volunteer group, anybody can join and do what he wants for himself. Just go ahead
Well then - lets get started asap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Very nice Aymar, I see things are going smoothly here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ Mar. 27 2004,19:09)]Very nice Aymar, I see things are going smoothly here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Thanks, TK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

BTW, I've finally finished the definitive version of the texts. Unless I find any unseen incorrection, this will be the final version of the text.

EDIT: Final correction about the origin of Gladius and some reworking of units.

[The_Emperor]

Very Nice Unit descriptions...

I guess we'd have to sort something out for the Celtic Britons soon enough. I still need more information about Celtic Swords though.

[frogbeastegg]

At long last I have found something useful on the net. Here you go:

Celtic warriors (http://www.kernunnos.com/culture/warriors/) Ignore the stupid intro, take a look at the historical sources. Not just Britons, so maybe useful to other research groups.

British Celtic swords (http://www.ad500.org.uk/vicus/documents/britishswords.htm) finally some decent, archaeological drawings of appropitate swords.

Celtic spear (http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/ah-3537.jpg) a not bad reconstruction of a Celtic LaTene spearhead.

Aside from that it's just the usual rubbish, Merlin's Celtic sword can be yours for only $199.99 You can have some Celtic love potions too, how about some lucky heather? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif I think I shall buy that elixier of life I saw, I don't feel well and immortality is always nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Mar. 28 2004,14:38)]At long last I have found something useful on the net. Here you go:

Aside from that it's just the usual rubbish, Merlin's Celtic sword can be yours for only $199.99 You can have some Celtic love potions too, how about some lucky heather? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif I think I shall buy that elixier of life I saw, I don't feel well and immortality is always nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Ah, lady Frog, thankyou. *bows*

I do know what you mean about the large amount of 'Usual Rubbish' on the net... Its actually really difficult to find any Celtic info on the web without finding a page that reffers to 'Merlin's Sword' or something.

Now all we have to do is think up some potential units.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Mar. 28 2004,07:52)]Very Nice Unit descriptions...
Thank you very much, The_Emperor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

After some more reading, I had to correct several mistakes. They concerned 2 units and the Gladius Hispaniensis origin, which was wrong.

[Oleander Ardens]

Would be an honour for me to join the cause...

Oleander Ardens


Interested in almost everything, but I will focus on the Scyths and Germans, while keeping an eye on the Celtic tribes in the Alps (especially Noricum), if possible... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mouzafphaerre]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Mar. 28 2004,16:38)]British Celtic swords (http://www.ad500.org.uk/vicus/documents/britishswords.htm) finally some decent, archaeological drawings of appropitate swords.
-
Mouzafphaerre picks up the link and flees http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
_

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

So, guys What's cooking? Anyone finishing work? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

For Stefan: I would apreciate if you can give everybody some pointers about the estimated time to present our work to CA. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[The Wizard]

I'm falling over the problem of West Parthian cataphracts and their function in combat...

[The Wizard]

Ok, a little taster of my work, of probably the most interesting unit the Parthians have to the usual eye.

East Parthian lancer
The quintessenial 'cataphract'. They wear steel helmets, a coat of mail reaching to the knees and made of rawhide covered with scales of iron or steel. Over the coat of scale mail they wear a tunic with faction colors, reaching to the upper legs. The arms and legs are protected by strips of smelted iron banded together to form an effective protection against melée weapons, which are worn over the tunic. The horse is covered from head to knees (back legs) by armour made of scale armour made of steel or bronze. The helmet is a skull cap made of iron, with either a small mane, just a tuft, or none at all.

Irresistable charge (lance)
Armed with lance, bow and sword
Normal attack (bow)
Strong attack (sword)
Missiles good versus armor
Very good defence
Slow
Weak when flanked
High morale
Disciplined

[The Wizard]

Horse armor, as found at the site of the ancient Palmyran/Roman/Hellenistic city of Dura Europos:

http://www.romancoins.info/mil-squamata.JPG



~Wiz

[The Wizard]

Example of a helmet a Parthian cataphract could have worn:

http://www.romancoins.info/coolus-mannheim.JPG

As befits Roman nature, some of their troops wore it as well.



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Great info, Wiz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

[Shahed]

I just thought that this should really have been placed in the Colosseum or the Main Hall.

It is not getting enough attention here.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 19 2004,10:10)]I just thought that this should really have been placed in the Colosseum or the Main Hall.

It is not getting enough attention here.
As long as our info reaches CA, that's what matters, isn't it??... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Shahed]

Well is it reaching CA ?

The info must reach more consumers because power of numbers is a must for any activism, either than or money http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 19 2004,13:13)]Well is it reaching CA ?

The info must reach more consumers because power of numbers is a must for any activism, either than or money http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ok. Just PM Stefan.

[Steppe Merc]

How can I put the Europa banner up? I wanna support to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[The Wizard]

You could use the old one or mine, by putting it in your sig by way of [img]http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif



~Wiz

[The_Emperor]

This really belongs in the Colosseum,

CA regularly view that place and this is all about RTW after all.

A link at least would be a good idea.

[Teutonic Knight]

I'll second that motion...

[KukriKhan]

I'll be happy to move this thread, but I feel the need to get a greater consensus from the thread contributors first. Two more "Move it" ''s from thread contributors, and consider it done.

NOTE: My intention when/if this is moved, is to also delete these "admin" type posts. Any problems with that?

[The Wizard]

Move it, please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



~Wiz

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (KukriKhan @ June 21 2004,22:18)]I'll be happy to move this thread, but I feel the need to get a greater consensus from the thread contributors first. Two more "Move it" ''s from thread contributors, and consider it done.

NOTE: My intention when/if this is moved, is to also delete these "admin" type posts. Any problems with that?
of course, that sounds reasonable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Okay, I'm back after having a lot trouble with my Girlfriend...

There a two Points we MUST face now if this shall work:

1. The thread should be moved to the Colosseum.
2. There must at the end be a fixed Release for our worked out Info to CA, we already have June and the game is officially claimed to be in the stores in Autumm this year (September, October???). It is possible that the Info-package is already to late, through realisation of our thoughts might delay the game.

Can we say 30th June 2004 is the final day when the Europa Barbarorum work has to be finished? I would then rather say we did present our Info to public in the Colosseum and secondly send it via Email to CA so often that they pass it to the developers...

In the other direction: Any other Ideas how to reach CA-Devs?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[KukriKhan]

OK, that makes 2 more "move it's". I decided to leave the admin-type posts in, as they also chronicle the birth & development of this movement.

The Colosseum mods will have to "pin" this. If they don't in 48 hours, I'll ask an admin to do it for us.

[PSYCHO]

Only just noticed this thread WOW some great work here guys.

So who's organising things? Is it Risingsun?

The project is difficult because we are not aware of how RTW will work and what features / unit numbers they’ll include. As such I suggest we keep it as simple as possible. If the group intends on producing a co-op report / suggested list thingy, a few things need to be addressed. My humble suggestion:

1) There needs to be an overseeing to encourage and co-ordinate.

2) The different teams need to get together to discuss their factions and produce a bullet point list of:
A) Factional features / character
B) Different Tribes / units of interest
C) Different Factional equipment and attire
D) Different Factional arms
E) Miscellaneous information

3) The different teams then need to discuss / use the information from point 2, extrapolate key data and create units that marry historical reality with features that will add to a diversity in units and ultimately a fun / immersive gaming experience. Ideally, these will also reflect historically realities, regional differences etc. eg No Elephant units being raised in Northern Briton, Elite-Heavy Infantry costing less than Light Infantry etc

4) Each unit should be cretaed as either:
A) Standard / Generic
B) Elite / Either geographically or otherwise hard to obtain with the view that the standard troops will supply the bulk of the faction’s forces.
C) Mercenary / Hired Troops

5) Each unit should be classed as either:
A) ‘Light’ (L)
B) ‘Medium’ (M)
C) ‘Heavy’ (H)

6) Each unit should be clearly defined as either:
A) Infantry (I)
B) Cavalry ©
C)Special (S)

7) Each faction should have no more than 15 units in total


Thoughts?

[Nowake]

So what should we do Psycho, merge our threads? We have unit trees for Gauls, Dacians, Germans. This makes 3 of 5. Not quite bad.

[Oleander Ardens]

I like the way both of you did present their work;

As I said I will do both Scythians and Sarmantians - if you have any info just PM me. It is always possible that there is some new to me among them.


How would both the regnum Noricum and the Raetian fit in?
The kingdom of Noricum was an archenemy of Dacia and the richest and most longlasting celtic nation on continental soil, while the Raetians were culturally and linguistically linked to the Etruscans, creating proto-urban oppidi and using very distinct weapons (pyramid-shape pila-like javelins, "Hellebardenaexte" (large waraxes), and celtic gear)...

Hmm perhaps I shall first create a unit-tree of the Raetians & Noricum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[Nowake]

Hmm, I would not call them regnum Noricum. There were just an alliance of celtic tribes: the boii and tauriscii. They dominated Pannonia, and western Transilvania for a while, but under Critasiros, they were wiped out by Burebista (the boii ran untill they reached the helvetii lands, and that alliance was not very fortunate) Later sarmatian roxolanii and iazyges inhabited the area. But they were under dacian or roman influence mostly. They will most surely be depicted as rebels, so why bother.


I really think you should try a sarmatian unit tree. After you'll show us your work, we'll tweak it eventhough I don't think it'll be neccesary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[The Wizard]

Well, I'm doing the Parthians on my own, but the thing is the following:

The Parthians are not a tribal society, but an empire. However, looking at CA's depiction of cataphracts (not bad) and horse archers (real bad), and seeing that the Parthians are not Greco-Roman, they are 'barbarian' and therefore I'm doing them.

They don't have any tribal units save for some Skythian marchmen and mercenaries.

Still, what is also important is that CA gievs them the right starting position, the right political system (dynastic struggles were very common in the Parthian empire), and that their campaigning should be realistic (they were unable to siege, and their feudal armies could only stay on the field for a very limited time because of the fact that the lesser nobles wanted to get back with their retainers to tend to the land, and the king was scared of his greater nobles plotting against him).

In other words: the Parthians should be a very hard faction to play with, because even though they may win a battle or two, the upkeep for the Imperial army keeps on getting higher (or another gameplay-issue that CA might use to simulate the limited time a PArthian Imperial army can spend on the field), and they can't siege cities, something which is very important in RTW and I worry that CA will ignore that very important detail. They shouldn't be turning into Mongol-like raiders who can't siege, nor should they be able to siege and campaign effectively.



~Wiz

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ June 23 2004,02:10)]So what should we do Psycho, merge our threads? We have unit trees for Gauls, Dacians, Germans. This makes 3 of 5. Not quite bad.
Well, we need to work out who's doing what and stick to it.

I propose we start a new thread and run it like an advert.
In it we invite all peeps to nominate themselves for a particular faction. No discussion, no comments, just responses. Ideally it would be good if the mods could sticky a closed thread advert with an email / PM for interested parties. Obviuosly the later will require a Project Manager to co-ordinate things.

After a week we begin work with whatever teams we have. There's already been some good work done, so we're not starting from scratch. Each does as much as they feel able / comfortable to do.

Whadiya guys think ..maybe the 4hrs sleep is kick'n in? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ June 23 2004,00:27)]Only just noticed this thread WOW some great work here guys.

So who's organising things? Is it Risingsun?
Nope. The project leader was the initiator of this thread: Stefan the Berserker. The 2 coordinators were listed in the early pages. They were Cebei and Teutonic Knight. The rest were divided by cultures:


Quote[/b] ]Who will do the Celtic Briton research?
The_Emperor
Big King Sanctaphrax
frogbeastegg


Who will do the Celtic Gaul research?
PSHYCO
Nowake


Who will do the Germanic research?
Stefan the Berserker
Monk


Who will do the Dacian research?
Revenant69
Nowake


Who will do the Celti-Iberian research?
Parmenio
Aymar de Bois Mauri


Game accuracy information:
Cebei
Teutonic Knight

It seems you were in the group but forgot about it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Problem is: I haven't contacted with some of the group's members for some weeks (like Parmenio and Revenant69).



Quote[/b] ]The project is difficult because we are not aware of how RTW will work and what features / unit numbers they’ll include. As such I suggest we keep it as simple as possible. If the group intends on producing a co-op report / suggested list thingy, a few things need to be addressed. My humble suggestion:

1) There needs to be an overseeing to encourage and co-ordinate.

2) The different teams need to get together to discuss their factions and produce a bullet point list of:
A) Factional features / character
B) Different Tribes / units of interest
C) Different Factional equipment and attire
D) Different Factional arms
E) Miscellaneous information

3) The different teams then need to discuss / use the information from point 2, extrapolate key data and create units that marry historical reality with features that will add to a diversity in units and ultimately a fun / immersive gaming experience. Ideally, these will also reflect historically realities, regional differences etc. eg No Elephant units being raised in Northern Briton, Elite-Heavy Infantry costing less than Light Infantry etc

4) Each unit should be cretaed as either:
A) Standard / Generic
B) Elite / Either geographically or otherwise hard to obtain with the view that the standard troops will supply the bulk of the faction’s forces.
C) Mercenary / Hired Troops

5) Each unit should be classed as either:
A) ‘Light’ (L)
B) ‘Medium’ (M)
C) ‘Heavy’ (H)

6) Each unit should be clearly defined as either:
A) Infantry (I)
B) Cavalry ©
C)Special (S)

7) Each faction should have no more than 15 units in total


Thoughts?
Good sugestions, but most of the work is finished (like mine - Mar. 27 2004,21:12) or nearly. A rework like you sugest will take a lot of time. We also have to take into consideration the fact that we need to have some influence in RTW. The game nears release, so we need to send this info right away.



Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ June 23 2004,04:19)]
Quote[/b] (Nowake @ June 23 2004,02:10)]So what should we do Psycho, merge our threads? We have unit trees for Gauls, Dacians, Germans. This makes 3 of 5. Not quite bad.
Well, we need to work out who's doing what and stick to it.

I propose we start a new thread and run it like an advert.
In it we invite all peeps to nominate themselves for a particular faction. No discussion, no comments, just responses. Ideally it would be good if the mods could sticky a closed thread advert with an email / PM for interested parties. Obviuosly the later will require a Project Manager to co-ordinate things.
As for the new thread will it be really necessary? There are other threads in the Colosseum related with correcting RTW's Historical info with a MOD that will use EB info.

[AvramL]

I could help out with the Germanics, what kind of specific info do you need right now?
I have a wealth of bools dealing with the subject including all the osprey titles which have plenty of illustrations.

[AvramL]

Check out these ancient Germanic miniatures
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/AG/index.asp

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ June 23 2004,12:19)]
Quote[/b] (Nowake @ June 23 2004,02:10)]So what should we do Psycho, merge our threads? We have unit trees for Gauls, Dacians, Germans. This makes 3 of 5. Not quite bad.
Well, we need to work out who's doing what and stick to it.

I propose we start a new thread and run it like an advert.
In it we invite all peeps to nominate themselves for a particular faction. No discussion, no comments, just responses. Ideally it would be good if the mods could sticky a closed thread advert with an email / PM for interested parties. Obviuosly the later will require a Project Manager to co-ordinate things.

After a week we begin work with whatever teams we have. There's already been some good work done, so we're not starting from scratch. Each does as much as they feel able / comfortable to do.

Whadiya guys think ..maybe the 4hrs sleep is kick'n in? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
No, in my opinion, only one man should work on a faction.


You, Psycho, have the celts, I have the dacians, The Wizard has the parthians, Oleander has the Sarmatians, and of course, we have Stefan with the germans. We only need britons and celtiberians. Each one of us works on material divided in three groups:

Military: this means unit tree, fortifications (how should these be implemented, the dimmensions) and human resources in general.
Society: the organisation, the degree to which feudal relations were present (like in Gaul, 1 century BC), other tidbits.
Economy: material resources (agriculture, mining etc.), trade, commerce.
Religion: interesting tidbits, only as long as those influence Military and Social aspects.


After this is done by each of us, we'll post material here, and we provide each other feedback.


Quote[/b] ]4) Each unit should be cretaed as either:
A) Standard / Generic
B) Elite / Either geographically or otherwise hard to obtain with the view that the standard troops will supply the bulk of the faction’s forces.
C) Mercenary / Hired Troops

5) Each unit should be classed as either:
A) ‘Light’ (L)
B) ‘Medium’ (M)
C) ‘Heavy’ (H)

6) Each unit should be clearly defined as either:
A) Infantry (I)
B) Cavalry ©
C)Special (S)

7) Each faction should have no more than 15 units in total


Yup, this is exactly how these should be done http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

excelent work guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ June 24 2004,19:53)]excelent work guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
agrees profusely http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Nowake @ June 24 2004,03:18)]We only need britons and celtiberians.
I thought the Celtiberians were for me and anyone else that wanted to help... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]So, guys What's cooking? Anyone finishing work?

For Stefan: I would apreciate if you can give everybody some pointers about the estimated time to present our work to CA.



Zitat[/b] ]Can we say 30th June 2004 is the final day when the Europa Barbarorum work has to be finished? I would then rather say we did present our Info to public in the Colosseum and secondly send it via Email to CA so often that they pass it to the developers...

The Game shall be in Stores until Autumm 2004, we already have Summer 2004. That means even if the Developers agree with Europa Barbarorum they have +-3 Month to finish their work to keep the planned release. That makes it urgent that all finished work is going to be presented to the Developers, unless 2 Days before an official release of RTW there won't be changes anymore.

Aymar send his Info to me some longer time ago, and I finished my work aswell. Iberian Celts and Germanics are made so far, if somebody likes to do additional work, no problem, but these versions are ready to go and they will have to go as soon as possible if we want to have a chance

And now I have only one Request: May now a CA-Member post in this Thread and perhaps offer us an Email-adress via PM? Through the whole topic makes no sense if there is no counterpart who recieves the Information.

[Steppe Merc]

Stefen, on behaf of the historical modie thingy going on, could we use your info if CA doesn't use it? Wiz, could you explain what I'm trying to say more?

[Oleander Ardens]

Yeah Stefan, would be nice to see how you implemented the Germans

Today I finished the last Uni- exams, so that I have now enough time to finish my three projects ...

Cheers

OA

[Nowake]

Finished exams about .. 2 hours ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif Tonight vodka, tommorow work on the dacians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

By the way I might comment on the gameplay side of both the excellent barbarian factions of Nowake and Psycho.
I'm too planning to use make mine that way, but won't it be impossible to recruit first-class units outside dacia or gaul when we implement it that way?


(OT) Glad you have finished too Nowake, for a nice Europa Barbarorum

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[The_Emperor]

Ok just to let you guys know I have been reviewing my data and can come up with a few units for the Britons... I'll post some unit sugguestions after the weekend.

Should anyone else have other unit sugguestions feel free to post them.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 02 2004,16:11)]By the way I might comment on the gameplay side of both the excellent barbarian factions of Nowake and Psycho.
I'm too planning to use make mine that way, but won't it be impossible to recruit first-class units outside dacia or gaul when we implement it that way?


(OT) Glad you have finished too Nowake, for a nice Europa Barbarorum

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
It will be possible to recruit some of the units. TO be more specific, the units that can be recruited from all dacian territories will be recruited from any area controled by the dacians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Only the ones belonging to certain tribes, like the Costobocii Warband, shall be confined to an area.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Stefen, on behaf of the historical modie thingy going on, could we use your info if CA doesn't use it? Wiz, could you explain what I'm trying to say more?

Of Course, but really wonder that no Dev thinks he had to post here...

[The_Emperor]

here are some initial Celtic Briton unit proposals... I am having trouble with some unit names and types. Anyway here goes.

The Celtic tribes of Britannia are fierce independent peoples. Constant fighting and skirmishing between the various tribes makes them very good fighters.

In addition to regular conflict many of the tribes also trade with each other, and with outsiders.
Many of the southern tribes have grown powerful and rich due to trade with the Gauls, and as a rule are more "Civilized".

For the most part the Northern tribes, especially those in Calidonia are constantly fighting each other, these warriors are generally considered to be fiercer than their southern counterparts.

The Britons go to war painted with delicate religious patterns in Blue Woad. These magical patterns are believed to protect the wearer from missile fire, and give the Britons a frightful appearance in battle.

The Collecting of heads is of great importance to the Britons on the battlefield, to take a person's head not only shows skill in battle, but a warrior who takes it is also believed to inherit the victim's courage and skill... Collecting heads can be more important to warriors than even the winning of a battle.

In their battle lineup, the best and bravest warriors line up at the front and the rest follow... Should the battle start to go badly, the rest might well melt away from it.

Weapons
The Spear Spears are the mainstay weapon of the Celtic warrior. Easy to develop (often in their own homes) Spears are a common sight on the battlefield and are carried by warriors from almost all levels of tribal society.

javelins The Javelin is another favored weapon of the Britons. Often hurled from Chariots or on foot.

Slings The sling is a weapon employed to great effect by the tribes in defending themselves. Hillforts very often have massed sling ammunition ready for use at any moment.

Swords
Celtic Longswords are used by the Britons, but are less common than the other weapons. Swords are wielded by the best warriors who charge into battle to great effect.

Armour
Armour was extremely rarely used by the britons, and then only by the chieftain or nobility of a tribe. Helmets and greaves have been mainly found, but some of the richest chieftains could have a set of Roman or Greek armour but this is extremely uncommon.

Units

Tribal infantry - Light Infantry
(Fast, Armed with Spears, Poor Morale, can hide in woods)
Armed with spears, these men represent the basic infantry of a Celtic army... pressed into battle to make up numbers by their tribal leaders, they are cheap reluctant warriors. They are often the last to enter battle, and the first to leave if it starts going badly.

Tribal Slingers - Skirmishers
(fast, average morale, poor in melee, can hide in woods)
The Britons use the sling well. While they do not utilize the lead shots of their European counterparts, they do use clay and rounded stone projectiles with great skill. These men should really avoid fighting in melee combat.

Tribal Skirmishers
(fast, armed with javelins, can hide in woods)
The javelin is a widely used weapon of the Britons. Skirmishing between the tribes is commonplace and Britons are very fine skirmishers as a result. these weapons are often thrown at the beginning of a battle to taunt the enemy into attacking.

Light Chariot
(Fast, poor against cavalry, armed with javelins)
The Chariot is the form of warfare adopted by the tribes of Britain. Light Chariots function as scouts and fast skirmishers. The driver controls the Chariot while his passenger hurls javelins to disrupt the enemy formations. They can deal short charges against the enemy, but suffer in prolonged melee... Cavalry makes short work of chariots though.

Heavy chariot (no blades on wheels please)
(fast, strong charge, poor against cavalry)
These charioteers are armed with Celtic swords and shields. Charging enemy formations, they can disorganize the enemy and create holes for other warriors to exploit.

Calidonian Warband (Warband)
(Armed with swords, strong charge, appearance frightens enemies, impetuous charge)
The constant warfare and raiding between the tribes in the northern regions of Britain has produced some of the greatest warriors in the islands. Dressed in Woad and carry the trophies of their (former) enemies into battle as a sign of their prowess, these men are extremely large and are very intimidating for anyone facing them

[econ21]

Interesting stuff, Emperor. From what you say, there might be a case for having a swordsman unit or some such. This could be armoured, high morale - representing the tribal leaders and their elite, best equipped warriors; "charging in to good effect" as you say. I know in reality, such folk would likely be intermingled with the spearmen but for gameplay it might be fun to have them represented as a separate unit.

There might also be qualitative gradations of spears - like Feudals and vanilla spears in MTW - as some British spearmen were presumably stouter hearted than others.

It's interesting what you say about head hunting given the controversial head-hurling unit from CA. From a modding point of view, I wonder if the graphics for the head-hurlers (not their attack animation) would be useful to represent units of the fiercest and wildest warriors? Kinda like (very) toned down berserkers or Celtic warriors in VI. Again, having them as a separate unit would be an abstraction but a justifiable one.

Both the armoured swordsman and head-hunting units would be smaller sized than the regular units as they represent rarer types of warriors.

I suspect a weak horseman unit, like Viking raider cav, would not be too ahistorical either.

[The_Emperor]

yeah these are only starting stuff, I am working on more but I just wanted to get some feedback.

Anyway cheers for the feedback. I was thinking of the same sort of lines as well.

[Oleander Ardens]

Nice list Emperor; As Simon said qualitative graduations will help to get more variations..

Hm the animation of hurling the head could perhaps be used to implement the Scandinavian throwing axe, which I presented here some time ago...


I think we still have to find a way to let this faction build elite units outside their homelands, especially when so many are Regionspecific like in Psycho`s list...

Cheers

OA

[The_Emperor]

More unit proposals...

Celtic cavalry (Light cavalry)
(fast, average morale)
Little more than Celtic warriors on horseback, these men make good basic cavalry. Fast and light they are more than capable of hunting down the Chariots of other tribes and pursuing fleeing enemies.


Atrebates Horsemen (Medium Cavalry)
(good charge, good morale)
The Atrebates tribe in the south of Britain is widely thought to have its origins in Gaul. They still retain good trade links with the Gauls on the mainland and Will barter nearly anything

Their horses tend to be of strong Gallic origin, and Spear armed warriors often ride them into battle. Atrebates horsemen are fine Celtic Cavalry and superior to that of other tribes.

Celtic Warriors (Warband, Armed with Spears and javelins, can hide in forest)
(good defence, good morale, defend well against cavalry)
These men are at the forefront of Tribal armies. While not yeat advanced enough in tribal society to get their hands on swords, these men are very skilled with the basic Spear and Javelin weapons in use by the tribe, and are seeking status and glory.

These brave men are often seen at the front of Tribal armies, hurling their javelins at the enemy before they close for the charge Their spears make them well suited to dealing with enemy horsemen.

Tribal Swordsmen (Warband)
(Excellent morale, good attack, impetuous)
The Sword is a fine weapon, and any warrior owning one has great status within a tribe. These men, while unarmoured do carry shields for protection.

A common tactic used by the Britons is for the chariots to open up gaps and disrupt the enemy formations for these men to exploit with deadly effect.

Tribal Nobles (warband)
(armoured, elite, excellent morale, inspires friendly troops)
Armour is the rarest of things in Celtic society, reserved for the true nobility of a tribe. Armoured in mail with a shield and Sword these men are the finest warriors of a tribe.

These couragous men make quite an impact on the battlefield and think nothing of charging in against the odds. The sight of them in battle inspires troops around them to great feats and helps to boost morale.

[Steppe Merc]

I think that having a unit with heads on his belt would be fine, as long as he doesn't throw them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif If getting heads were more important then winning battles, would they really waste their heads?
edit: Thanks Stefan

[Oleander Ardens]

Filled the Alpine Gap with the Raetians, and will move on now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Well, you are right, but I though more of the Gaul units of Psycho, which has many regional units at his disposal..

Cheers

OA

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 08 2004,14:57)]Filled the Alpine Gap with the Raetians, and will move on now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Well, you are right, but I though more of the Gaul units of Psycho, which has many regional units at his disposal..

Cheers

OA
Well unfortunately I didn't find much detailed information on the individual regions.

I can provide names for most of the Tribes, but as far as it goes with the britons, they all were pretty similar in style and type of warfare (the chariot).

The main differences between the tribes of Britons were size and wealth.

At any rate, the unit names can be changed to make the units more regional.

Anyway here is an approximate map of the tribes.

http://www.britannia.com/history/celtictribes.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Yup working out regional differences is difficult when you only have the "mirror of death", the found goods, weapons and so on..

I think your units are a very good basis, but like mine Raetians they still need the cloths, appearence ...

BTW the Raetians were no Celts, but well differed from all other ethnical groups surrounding them with a possible relative: the Etruscans.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Nice map, was there also a tribe called Brigantes? Maybe the Romans labeled all tribes with names similar to the word Brigantes as "Brigantes" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Cheers

OA

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Could your data base be used for future modding projects on RTW?
I really like this movement,great work guys and i think i speak for everybody who wants a more historical game.

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Maybe you already have them,but i posted some usefull links for your research on the HTW sub-forum:

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=19713 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=38;t=19713)

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[The_Emperor]

As I understand it the Europa Barbarorum movement is now directed towards a mod for Rome when it comes out.

I think this is our main drive now.

[Oleander Ardens]

True, EB seems to be now directed towards more accurate RTW with more factions. My data are free for all modders aslong they give credit to me for the research. Would be an honour if somebody wants to mod them

Cheers

OA

[Steppe Merc]

Just out of courisity, is anyone doing the Sarmatians?

[Colovion]

Very good stuff in here - I can't wait to see the results. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

@Steppe Marc: I will do them, if anybody thinks he has good rare material on them, PM me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cheers

OA

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 11 2004,07:58)]My data are free for all modders aslong they give credit to me for the research. Would be an honour if somebody wants to mod them.
I agree with Oleander Ardens. If people give me credit for my research, they can use my data. However, I would be happy if anyone wanting to use it, would help out in the correction MOD for RTW, before using this data to other future MODs.

[Steppe Merc]

The reason why I'm asking is because I'm not even sure if their making the Sarmatians in the game. Three units of Scyths, and not one of Sarmatians. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

It seems that CA will blend the Sarmantian and Scythian tribes into a single "Scythian" faction...

By the way how would the Kushites (Meroitic Periode) fit in? They fought at least one battle against the Romans and formed a seemingly very stable kingdom until 350 AD..

But it seems that the strat map doesn't reach enough southwards

Cheers

Oa

[Steppe Merc]

How far does the map reach? Into the Caucaus mountain area, or what?

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 13 2004,04:08)]It seems that CA will blend the Sarmantian and Scythian tribes into a single "Scythian" faction...

By the way how would the Kushites (Meroitic Periode) fit in? They fought at least one battle against the Romans and formed a seemingly very stable kingdom until 350 AD..

But it seems that the strat map doesn't reach enough southwards

Cheers

Oa
perhaps the problem is timeframe or like MTW you can only have 30? factions. so that may be why also, i should think that CA want a focus on rome. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Steppe Merc]

Quote[/b] ]perhaps the problem is timeframe or like MTW you can only have 30? factions. so that may be why also, i should think that CA want a focus on rome.
Why would they restrict the factions? Why? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Steppe Merc @ July 19 2004,19:39)]
Quote[/b] ]perhaps the problem is timeframe or like MTW you can only have 30? factions. so that may be why also, i should think that CA want a focus on rome.
Why would they restrict the factions? Why? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
Well they did the same thing for the Turks in MTW... Only giving them a fraction of their true territory.

Oh well such is life.

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps we could expand the map to go out farther?

[Oleander Ardens]

I just want to info your that Angadil and I while work upon the Scythians and Sarmantians. If you have interesting unique info you can PM me or him...
:phonecall:

Cheers ~:wave:

OA

[Steppe Merc]

Probably a bit silly to ask this, but do you have the Osprey Oleander Ardens? They give lots of info on visualizing how the units should look like.

[Oleander Ardens]

Angadil has both the Osprey Books for the Sarmantians and Scythians, while I have a good deal of various info (arch., histor.) thanks to my UNI - lib.
We had some intensive discussions and work is going very neatly;


Cheers

OA

[Angadil]

Hello ~:)

I can post now... ~:cool: So hi, everyone and I'll use this chance for a brief introduction. Obviously, I am one of those who firmly believes that a more historically accurate game will not lose, but gain, in play value. For me, this idea has a double attraction. One is the somewhat abstract satisfaction of proving the previous point. Two is ending up with a mod I know I'll love to play (quite less abstract)~;) I suppose some of you may have seen me post at the .com. Therefore, when I read OA's post about this budding modding project I talked to him and given my inordinate fondness for all things Sarmato-Scythian (or just steppe nomad...) We've ended up trying to put up a tentative list of units for those guys (including those for a potential Sarmatian faction, now that we know for sure that Scythia is in, but Sarmatian isn't).

I'd say it's going well ~:) Yes, Steppe Merc I do have the Ospreys and they are proving quite useful indeed (I'd say we've been lucky, IMO these two are better than your average Osprey). Of course, I'd be grateful for any pointers you may have...

Cheers
A.

[Steppe Merc]

Not in particualar. Just making sure that ther is someone in charge of the steppe factions. And I think it would be a good idea to add the Sarmatians.

[ick_of_pick]

Personally I still think that Palmyra and Assyria should be included, and I would be willing to do all the research, but I don't know much about modeling, or modding for that matter. The most I could really do is just inform and suggest, but my sources are reliable and my Aramaic is (almost) perfect, so I could probably tell you what the Palmyrans and Assyrian/Chaldeans actually called thier units. Also, I respect the way you guys take action, so I figured you would be the best way to influence CA or just make a decent and realistic mod.

Ick

[ICantSpellDawg]

add me to the list

[biguth dickuth]

Personally I still think that Palmyra and Assyria should be included, and I would be willing to do all the research, but I don't know much about modeling, or modding for that matter. The most I could really do is just inform and suggest, but my sources are reliable and my Aramaic is (almost) perfect, so I could probably tell you what the Palmyrans and Assyrian/Chaldeans actually called thier units. Also, I respect the way you guys take action, so I figured you would be the best way to influence CA or just make a decent and realistic mod.

Ick

Actually, i think that Palmyra appears too late in the timeframe of the game to be modded in from the beginning. Also, Assyria was definitely still a geographical area and many assyrians used to live there but it no longer formed a state of it's own (speaking about the timeframe of RTW) so i think its addition would be also inapropriate.
At least, this is what i know as history, but i could be wrong.
Sorry ick_of_pick :saint:

Anyway, how is it all going guys?
Since CA is publishing the game they want, i presume that all the wonderful information you have gathered and the realistic units that you have devised will not go to the garbage bin but rather in a historicaly accurate mod of the game.
Gauls, Iberians and Celtiberians, Dacians, Germanics and Britons seem to be quite right. So we still have Scythians and Sarmatians (done by Oleander Ardens and Angadil if i'm not mistaken) and Parthians done by The Wizard.
We can also "fix" the Ptolemies and there is already an old thread with some info that could be used as a starting basis. Perhaps i could do some more thorough research on the Ptolemies but after i have finished my September university exams so i'm not promising anything for the moment :tomato:

Anyway, it would be nice to see some new info about the remaining factions coming soon in this thread (and some nice drawings too! I think I remember someone (perhaps Steppe Merc ) saying he would publish some Scythian and Sarmatian pics from the Osprey books).

I hope you don't feel like i'm playing smart to you guys, pressing you to make haste while i comfortably sit back and watch. You've done a lot of a good work researching and you deserve the credit for it. I'm just saying that the sooner the entire research is finished and brought together, the sooner the modding of the game can start, once it has hit the selves, of course.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hi, guys!!! Just checking on the progression... ~:wave:


I'm just saying that the sooner the entire research is finished and brought together, the sooner the modding of the game can start, once it has hit the selves, of course.
Of course. You're right. For the factions I've been responsible for, I will still have to wait for RTW's release to see what will be necessary to ad to the historical descriptions, culture and units, as well as to see how moddable RTW will be. That will limit the amount of work that remains to be done by everyone (researchers and modders alike).

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, Biguth, I'll post em. I just never got around to it. I've also got a whole bunch from Celts, which demonstrate how the Celts /really/ looked like, not the foolish way CA has done them. I'll get them up ASAP.