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Scipio
06-23-2004, 08:02
Just wondering if anybody at these forums have read or are reading the series A Song Of Ice And Fire. It is a great series that I'd recomend to anybody anyday, I am to lazy to write a review on the series but here is one from RPGnet;


Quote[/b] ]I think that a very strong argument can be made that George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire is the finest work of epic fantasy since J.R.R. Tolkien first defined the genre with THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

And that’s pretty much the only comparison which can be made between Martin’s emerging masterpiece and Tolkien’s classic.

Where Tolkien is a romantic, Martin is a realist. Where Tolkien is evocatively poetic, Martin is powerfully blunt. Where Tolkien is mythic, Martin is historical.

This review covers the first three books in the series: A GAME OF THRONES, A CLASH OF KINGS, and A STORM OF SWORDS. The fourth book, titled A FEAST OF CROWS, is scheduled to come out later this year. (Of course, it was also scheduled to come out last year. So don’t hold your breath.) The series is not done, and so it would be premature to judge it as a whole. But I will say this: If Martin finishes as he has begun, he will have crafted the first work to truly redefine what epic fantasy is capable of since Frodo passed out of Middle Earth.

(I’ve also heard this series described as “a fantasy version of the Wars of the Rose”. Having read the books, I feel compelled to report that this is only true in the vaguest of all possible senses. It would be roughly equivalent to saying that THE LORD OF THE RINGS is “a fantasy version of THE STING”.)

Here’s what I like:

First, the series is simply not predictable. Based on a long experience with extruded fantasy products, you may think you know where the plot is going from page one… but you don’t. (No, really. You don’t.) And the effect never ends: As you read on, you’ll be wrong in your guesses more often than not. And Martin isn’t so foolish as to have nothing turn out the way you would expect: Just enough threads carry themselves in out in a traditional fashion that you cannot even rest assured in the unexpected.

Second, the depth and breadth of world-building is staggering. Martin’s Westeros is no pale copy of Middle Earth with the names scratched off and written over. Nor is it a poorly disguised historical analogue. Nor a paper-thin construction whose scope is wholly spent with the first revelation. No, with Westeros Martin has made an onion: And with each chapter and volume he peels back a new layer.

Third, injuries have meaningful, long-lasting effects. Scars linger, old wounds ache, and even bruises make their presence felt. And when people die, the death is tangible and real, with the least trace of romanticism. (The only seeming exception here are missing teeth: Martin seems to have a fetish for knocking teeth out of his characters during fights, yet the lack never seems to be commented upon again. Perhaps there is a magical orthodontist running around backstage.)

Fourth, Martin does a very good job of putting you inside the heads of many different characters, each of whom has a unique outlook on the world.

Finally, these are just damn fine books. If you’ve been thinking to yourself, “I’d like to read a really good book,” then this is what you’re looking for.

There are two minor complaints I would lay against the series as a whole:

First, the timeline is a little vague and seems to be very flexible. Travel times, in particular, seem to elongate for effect when necessary, throwing off the relationship between various plot streams.

Second, Martin falls into the trap of recapping information and plot from previous volumes in each new volume. I’m not sure why authors of series like this feel a need to do this. The recaps would seem to suggest that each book could be read independently. But they can’t and they won’t, so why pretend? It’s only frustrating to those of us who start with the first book and read from there. In other words, it’s frustrating to all of us.

To elaborate on these general thoughts a little more:

The first two volumes are of a piece in my mind: The first is a crafty mystery and the second is a powerful war story, both set against a backdrop of byzantine intrigue and feudal politics. Both are excellent and nearly flawless.

The third volume, on the other hand, seems to tail off a bit. It’s not an exceptional decline by any stretch of the imagination – indeed, if this book were not preceded by the other two, it would be barely be mentionable. But weaknesses do begin to appear here which were not previously present in the series: Crudity which was once an effective evocation of Martin’s world begins slipping into simple shock value and occasional titillation. The violence and pain suffered by his characters becomes arbitrary, rather than arising naturally from their circumstances. A weird running “joke” appears. A mandatory rule of “a character must piss their pants once every fifteen pages” is instituted. (I wish I was kidding.) Several characters become mired at the beginning of the book and their plot threads begin to drag. An increasing proportion of the action begins slipping into flashbacks, being told instead of shown. Chapters begin ending with false, melodramatic cliffhangers.

Just strange, little stuff. Nothing major. Nothing which cripples the work. But enough minor irritants to consistently distract (particularly during the first third of the book).

On the other hand, the third volume also takes all of the strengths of the series and deepens them: The world becomes richer. The characters become more compelling. The plot grips you even tighter than before.

And here’s the most important thing to understand:

This is a brilliant series. Brilliant and painful and beautiful and stunning. Literally stunning. There are points in reading it when I found my mouth hanging agape, in sheer shock.

If you have not yet found this series, find it now. If you have been avoiding it skeptically as yet another poorly done set of fantasy doorstops, stop cheating yourself. If it is already on your reading list, move it to the top.

In short: Read it. Read it now.


I was also wondering if anybody knows of any games made opn the game and also, I suggest we make a mod when RTW comes out on it as it is such an awesome series http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Ja'chyra
06-23-2004, 08:12
I've read all of the series so far and I think it's very good, on a par with The Wheel of Time series.

I think the next book in the series is due out in September, it's been a long time in coming. I don't know about any games though.

Scipio
06-23-2004, 08:20
too bad, it would be awesome. BTW I am half way through the second book.

Ser Clegane
06-23-2004, 08:32
A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely the best fantasy series I have read so far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I almost envy you, Scipio, that you are not done with volume 2 and 3 yet as you are still going to enjoy all the twists of the story while I have to continue to wait for the 4th installment (and judging from GRRM's latest comments on his website I do not think it will be published in September).

I remember that some months ago somebody in the Entrance Hall mentioned that he was working on a mod based on the series - but I have not heard anything about it since then (so I fear the idea has been dropped)

Komutan
06-24-2004, 19:06
It is one of my favourite fantasy series(the other one is Malazan Empire).
There are also two short novels which take place in the same world.They were published in Legends 1 and 2(by Robert Silverberg).

Papewaio
06-25-2004, 01:41
The first two are very good. But the third seems to stretch out and not really go anywhere definite.

Wouldn't say it has the depth and breadth of Tolkein or the detail of Robert Jordan, nor the life like characters of Janny Wurts nor the high fantasy like Eddings nor the impact like Feist...

but it does bring a level of realism to fantasy rarely seen and you do notice lots of brutal deaths to foes good and bad... and a good amount of people in the grey...

even have a favourite anti-hero in the series... take a guess.

chunkynut
06-25-2004, 16:09
I think its a realists fantasy book, rap3, murd3r, inc3st etc play very brutal roles in these books. Very powerful and lots of swearing. Brilliant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Pape, its not the fat guy whos friends with Jon Snow is it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (although he is facinating)

(have to change the words so my websweeper service allows me to spell check)

frogbeastegg
06-25-2004, 21:32
I skim read the series months ago; I started to read them properly but got distracted by something else. I skim read them because I wanted to find out what happened, not many books grab my interest like that, usually I just read them really fast in one or two sittings, but this series was too intricate for that. I like the way no one is entirely good or bad, one minute you hate someone and wish they would die, the next you like them. Cersai is a prime example of this.

I think I may read them when I have finished reading that new stack of Sharon Penman’s historical stuff I am ripping through right now. Great stuff.

Vincenzo
06-29-2004, 12:39
Cita[/b] (Ser Clegane @ Jun. 23 2004,02:32)]A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely the best fantasy series I have read so far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I think it is, Sandor Clegane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I´ve read the two first books, and I´m waiting for the third that will be available in Spain next winter.

waiting, waiting, waiting..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

Ser Clegane
06-29-2004, 14:31
Quote[/b] (Vincenzo @ June 29 2004,06:39)]I think it is, Sandor Clegane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hehe ... I actually made a small mistake regarding my name here - it was intended to refer to Sandor but I forgot that he is no Ser - so I guess I have to settle for nice little Gregor then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif (I am such a geek)

71-hour Ahmed
06-29-2004, 15:12
doh I read them all a couple of weeks ago (i am a VERY fast reader and I got them via the local library so free) and I still didnt get the Ser Clegane thing Oh well, Im going to call you hound or mountain now

One of the best fantasy series out there by far. But I am a little worried that the next one won't be as good...

Pape: its gotta be Tyrion right? The most fortunate/unfortunate dwarf in history - for all the good things he gets he seems to also get bad karma the same time.

Snowhobbit
06-30-2004, 22:12
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but now that it has the attention of most fantasy readers, what do you people think of James Barclay?

ElmarkOFear
07-01-2004, 01:25
Comment on Wheel of Time series: At the pace he is going Robert Jordan will die before the last 2 books are written I was hoping when I started reading the series, that he would have finished it by the time I read the 8000+ pages of the series. In my opinion, the last book was a drawing out of the series. Nothing really happened and you are still where you were at the end of the last book. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his writing and his wit, but the last book dragged on and on and without seemingly any purpose.

My favorite character is Matt. Trouble follows him around, especially when he tries to avoid it. Plus his lady love, the bald headed chick, enjoys making his life miserable. Gotta love the realism of that hahaha

Ja'chyra
07-02-2004, 11:52
True, Robert Jordan is really dragging it out. I'm sure the series was supposed to be 10 books originally.

I have also read all of the James Barclay Raven series and enjoyed them too.

Stephen Eriksson is very good as well. The Malazan books are very imaginative and entertaining

Papewaio
07-03-2004, 01:47
Quote[/b] (Vincenzo @ June 29 2004,21:39)]
Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ Jun. 23 2004,02:32)]A Song of Ice and Fire is definitely the best fantasy series I have read so far http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I think it is, Sandor Clegane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I´ve read the two first books, and I´m waiting for the third that will be available in Spain next winter.

waiting, waiting, waiting..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif
Sandor Clegane, bad guy who reminds me of some of Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns... Sandor is the Good, the Bad and the Ugly all rolled into one.

Tyrion is an interesting character just by himself, and one of the better ones in fantasy literature.

It seems the series takes a leaf out of Greek Literature where the heroes are flawed and the villians are not just shallow (unless that is their character flaw). Also it is just as likely that a hero will die a gruesome death as a villian or that a villian will come to power over that of good.

Another series I enjoy is the Wizards First Rule... most of the characters are interesting... except the main character is typical fantasy perfect uber-man... it also contains a lot of almost preachy anti-communist ideas flowing through it.

frogbeastegg
07-04-2004, 15:24
Has anyone here read Stephen King's Dark Tower series? I keep hearing it is very good, but I have very picky tastes in fantasy; basically I hate most of the stuff like magic, wandering gods, and elves. I also dislike fantasy that feels the need to add in modern stuff like guns but explains it away as alchemy or the like. Fire and Ice is fantasy as I like it, aside from the occasional lapse into dragons and magic.

If I liked Martin will I like Dark Tower?

KukriKhan
07-04-2004, 16:37
My eyes glaze over when a story goes too deeply (IMO) into the fantastic - but that's just my personal taste, and there's no accounting for that.

I've read The Gunslinger, and found it engrossing in a Quest for the Grael kind of way. If you take Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns and blend them with Excalibur, you kind of get how the story feels.

Bhruic
07-04-2004, 17:35
Some of my favourite authors: Feist, Weis & Hickman, Hambly, Moon, Martin. Just so you know where I'm coming from when I say...

I couldn't stand the Dark Tower series. It was one of the worst pieces of tripe I've read in quite some time. King might be a middling good Horror writer, but he seems to have no aptitude for writing Fantasy. I would recommend you stay as far away from the series as you can. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bh

frogbeastegg
07-06-2004, 09:31
Perhaps one to look for in my local library when I have finisehd my current stack of books, thanks for the opinions.