any Betrayal at Krondor fanboys in the House?

[Navaros]

i myself am a die-hard Betrayal at Krondor fan

i have thought that this was the best (best meaning: MOST FUN) game ever made from the time i first played it almost 10 years ago.

even today, after having played thru most of the new juggaurnauts (ie: KOTOR), i am still of the opinion that Betrayal at Krondor is the very best game ever made.

IMO, KOTOR is schlock when set next to Betrayal at Krondor. so is Morrowind. so is anything else. that is not to say that KOTOR etc. is a bad game, only that Betrayal at Krondor is so far ahead of the pack that to play anything else simply feels like a shallow, dumbed-down experience

so who else among us loves BaK, and agrees that it's the best game ever? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[frogbeastegg]

I played Betrayal in Antara; it was the first RPG I ever played and it started an addiction that still lives today. I didn't play Krondor but I loved Antara, I almost finished the game but I got stuck on a stupid bead puzzle right at the end. It was one buggy game though, I can't count the nubmer of times I fell into rivers and couldn't get out because of bad clipping.

[dessa14]

im guessing they are both abandonware now, so i wonder where you can pick them up off the internet, they probably wouldn't be over 5 mb.
thanks, desmond

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ July 10 2004,04:52)]I played Betrayal in Antara
oh my, you've never played the real version of Antara, which is Krondor

Antara is basically just a hollow shell (when compared to BaK) which uses the BaK engine

Krondor is the King. if you've only played Antara and loved that, well then Krondor would probably knock your socks off since Krondor is just so very much better.

[Leet Eriksson]

I played Betrayal at Krondor,but it was pretty hard http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif but addictive aswell.

[Navaros]

yes it is a very hard game, even much more so if you don't know what you're doing.

but this just makes it all the more fun. you have to struggle to win most battles. there are very few cakewalks in this game. you have to strategize constantly, and balance your resources well. this game makes you think. it involves you mentally. that's a good thing.

recently i started playing the game again after being absent from it for many, many years. i was getting owned by the enemy AI for chapter 1 and halfway thru chapter 2 - but then i started to go ALL OVER THE KINGDOM (even in directions that had no relevance to my goals) and find leet armor/weapons for everyone. i also took those items to get the highest blessing from the best gods.

with this setup, i am utterly annhilating everyone in chapter 2 and 3. i almost feel like i shouldn't have leeted-myself-up so much since now the game is too easy. although before i leeted-myself-up, i was getting massacred constantly and the game was TOO HARD at that point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

of course the good side is that you don't keep the same characters for every chapter, so when i get the different characters, then all of their gear will suck and i'll be back at square one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

never managed to reach chapter 2 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif i always die at some point in the game,most usually after the second town i visit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ July 10 2004,12:56)]never managed to reach chapter 2 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif i always die at some point in the game,most usually after the second town i visit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
a problem you might be having is that you keep playing once your men become critically ill. this is a huge mistake, since to get your men out of that state requires a TON of resources or gold (which you would not have in Chapter 1). if you let your men get critically ill and keep on playing after that, then your death is inevitable

here is what you should do. if one of your men drops in combat, stop fighting at that point. let all your men die. then re-load a saved game from before the battle, and try again

never accept a Win in battle if one of your men has been struck down during that battle. at least, not until you are rich and can afford to pay the resources to fix him. and even then, it's rarely worth it to accept the resource cost when you can afford it. i personally only let my men be struck down in very, very tough circumstances when i have absolutely no way to beat a certain enemy otherwise. thankfully tho, i can replay most battles until i Win with none of my guys dropping. luck is a big part of winning when you're weak, like in Chapter 1. skill is a factor too, but all the skill in the world won't help you if 4 out of 5 enemies all target the same guy from your party at once. replay the battle, and the AI might do something different next time, which gives you a fighting chance.

if you do this then i'm betting you'll be a lot more successful with progressing in the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[nightcrawlerblue]

I've never heard of this game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

Saving and reloading every minute might be a bit tedious but i'll try doing it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

nightcrawlerblue,the game is pretty old,but you might want to give it a try if you manage to get a hold of a copy of the game,i think you'll need an old comp to run it,as my windows XP won't make it work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif,i still have an old comp around to play the oldies i have.

[Leet Eriksson]

Did you happen to try Return to Krondor Navaros?i'm interested in getting it,if i ever manage to find a copy.

[Sjakihata]

Quote[/b] (Navaros @ July 11 2004,02:10)]Here is what you should do. if one of your men drops in combat, stop fighting at that point. let all your men die. then re-load a saved game from before the battle, and try again.
Isn't that know among gamers as cheating?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Sjakihata @ July 10 2004,20:24)]
Quote[/b] (Navaros @ July 11 2004,02:10)]Here is what you should do. if one of your men drops in combat, stop fighting at that point. let all your men die. then re-load a saved game from before the battle, and try again.
Isn't that know among gamers as cheating?
i don't think so.

i mean, in MOST GAMES, if you die, then that's it, you need to reload

in Betrayal at Krondor, if one of your 3-member party dies, then the game allows you to continue - but the problem is the party member who died goes into a near-death state unless you expend millions of resources/gold sovreigns to get him out of the near-death state.

while in a near-death state, this party member is a liablity. he will die again with one hit from any enemy. and even before he gets hit, he is utterly useless since in this game, your stats are directly affected negatively depending on how messed up you are.

ie: if you are at 10% HP, then your damage and accuracy ratings will drop by around 90%. so you can't really do any damage to enemies while in a near-death state, and you're a sitting duck to be cut-down again with one blow.

in chapter 1 you start with almost nothing. no gold, no resources. to try to cure a near-death state in chapter 1 is virtually impossible. you don't have the means to do it. the near-death state feature is more balanced for the mid-late game when your characters have some clout behind them. near-death for one member in chapter 1 will surely mean the inevitable death of all 3 very shortly. you very much need all your party members in fighting condition just to survive in chapter 1


@faisal: no i never tried RTK, but i heard it's a good game. just not nearly as good as BaK. one thing that annoys me about RTK is that it refers to James as Squire, yet in BaK James is called Seigneur. since RTK is supposedly a sequel to BaK, then James should be a Seigneur in RTK too. i find that to be very annoying, but maybe i'm nitpicking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

you really should give BaK a full whirl, faisal. every true gamer should beat BaK at least once in his lifetime. i've never ever ever seen a story to match BaK presented in any other video game to come before or after. to not experience it all, is to rip yourself off

[frogbeastegg]

Has anyone got these games working on Windows XP? I wouldn't mind digging out Antara again sometime. I have done a little looking around an Antara fansite but the consensus on Antara and XP seems to be not possible.

Can someone tell me how Antara ended? I have been waiting something like 6 years to find out. I got up to disc 3, you had to do a bead puzzle to open a door to end the chapter and go to a new location; I couldn't solve the puzzle.

[Leet Eriksson]

Sorry frogbeastegg,never played Antara,but try searching for spoiler sites,or try gamefaqs,there are guides with spoilers on em i think.

@Navaros:I just managed to go through Lamut http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif i'll try reaching chapter 2 i hope... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[dessa14]

you can download BAK here.
http://www.dimwood.net/
thanks, dessa

[Crandaeolon]

BaK is great; Sierra did the right thing when they made it downloadable for free. Story-wise it beats a great majority of games hands down.

While the game wasn't originally written by Raymond E. Feist, the author of the novels that BaK is based on, he actually wrote the game into book form later, because it was such a success. It's entertaining reading, though not as good as Feist's earlier novels IMO.

I don't apply into the best game of all time -fan club, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif It's good, but not _that_ good. *cough* Torment *cough*

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ July 11 2004,11:11)]I don't apply into the best game of all time -fan club, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif It's good, but not _that_ good. *cough* Torment *cough*
what do you find not so good about BaK, specifically?

i don't like Torment...Torment is nothing but a blatant rip-off of the 1960's Piers Anthony character named Nameless One. that's LAME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Rosacrux]

Betrayal at Krondor is one of my all-time favorite RPGs (the other being BG&BG2 and the god-forsaken Bard's Tale series) and I enjoyed it thoroughly, allthough it was one of the extremely few games I would never finish without a walkthrough.

I played both sequels (the official and the actual) but none of them had anything to do with the original.

Loved the game, absolutely. Played it 9 years ago, but I finished it once and never came back to it... but I loved it anyway

Great, great game

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ July 11 2004,06:27)]@Navaros:I just managed to go through Lamut http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif i'll try reaching chapter 2 i hope... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
you can do it, i have faith in you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

hey if you're still near Lamut, be sure to check out the dwarven mine, Mac Mordain Cadal. it's just a little bit south of LaMut, to the Westernmost side of the map (as is LaMut)

if you go in that mine then you can do a quest there in Chapter 1 that will put a lot of gold in your pocket, which will come in very handy

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]what do you find not so good about BaK, specifically?


Okay, I'll try to offer a few things. I reviewed the game back in the day and have played it through 6+ times, so I'm quite familiar with it... :)

Compared to other games of its time (Ultima Underworld, for example), BaK is fairly ugly. I didn't like the claustrophobic world window, and some of the digitized characters look messy. IMO the usual drawn fantasy art would have been a better solution.

Granted, looks are not all that important in a RPG game, but some of the technological solutions have a negative impact on gameplay. For example, they had to stick to only swords and crossbows (and staves for magic users) because the fighting animations were done with those weapons only. Want to use an axe, mace, longbow or shield? Tough luck, those things don't exist. Even the Elves use Elven Crossbows instead of the longbows they _always_ use in the books.

Map design could be better. The dungeons are boring affairs with only 90-degree turns. There are no elevations; even the lowest hills are completely impassable. Why do a game in 3D if you're not going to use it?

The combat system is functional but a tad simple. Attack, defend, move, cast spell, rest and assess enemy. No flanking, charging, attacks of opportunity or suchlike. Some aspects of combat are unbalanced; the defend and assess options are next to useless and you can do too much in the inventory. You can drink an unlimited number of healing potions, poison your bolts and weapons, treat your armor with a protective oil and summon a couple of war dogs to the battlefield - all in one combat turn.

Some spells are very unbalanced. Take Skin of the Dragon, for example. For 10-15 stamina points you can make one combatant completely invulnerable to damage for practically the whole battle. Only enemy spellcasters can be a threat if they freeze the Skinned character(s), and this is rare. And, such threats are easily removed by using Grief or Fetters. Or by just moving next to the caster, which makes him unable to cast spells.

The game doesn't let you create a character and doesn't give you moral options like BG or KotoR. There's only one way to solve any given problem or puzzle. Exploring is free but plot is linear - quite normal for most rpg's but for Krondor it poses a problem. If you explore too much in the first two chapters, the rest of the game becomes a piece of cake as you can acquire godly equipment and skills (access to Dimwood in particular should have been restricted). This kind of design begs for at least _some_ encounters tailored to the abilities of the characters, but unfortunately the whole game has only status quo encounters.

Status quo in itself is not a problem, but the resources available should be controlled somehow. Guarded by powerful monsters, for instance. The Fallouts do a good job at this, but BaK fails: there are a lot of juicy chests in Dimwood, all relatively unguarded.

I'm sure I had some other quibbles as well, but I can't remember it all right now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Mind you, I gave the game a rating of 91% despite all this complaining, so it's by no means a bad game - but it isn't the best RPG of all time either. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]i don't like Torment...Torment is nothing but a blatant rip-off of the 1960's Piers Anthony character named Nameless One.

I'm not too familiar with Piers's works (only read a couple of books), but so far you're the only one to complain about this. No Torment reviewers, even fantasy scholars, have called it a ripoff. Quite the opposite. Perhaps you're confusing ripping off with giving a nod to?

And, there are only so many ways to call a guy who doesn't know who he is... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ July 12 2004,06:49)]Quote (Crandaeolon @ July 12 2004,06:49)
1. Compared to other games of its time (Ultima Underworld, for example), BaK is fairly ugly. I didn't like the claustrophobic world window, and some of the digitized characters look messy. IMO the usual drawn fantasy art would have been a better solution.

2. Granted, looks are not all that important in a RPG game, but some of the technological solutions have a negative impact on gameplay. For example, they had to stick to only swords and crossbows (and staves for magic users) because the fighting animations were done with those weapons only. Want to use an axe, mace, longbow or shield? Tough luck, those things don't exist. Even the Elves use Elven Crossbows instead of the longbows they _always_ use in the books.

3. Map design could be better. The dungeons are boring affairs with only 90-degree turns. There are no elevations; even the lowest hills are completely impassable. Why do a game in 3D if you're not going to use it?

4. The combat system is functional but a tad simple. Attack, defend, move, cast spell, rest and assess enemy. No flanking, charging, attacks of opportunity or suchlike. Some aspects of combat are unbalanced; the defend and assess options are next to useless

5. you can do too much in the inventory. You can drink an unlimited number of healing potions, poison your bolts and weapons, treat your armor with a protective oil and summon a couple of war dogs to the battlefield - all in one combat turn.

6. Some spells are very unbalanced. Take Skin of the Dragon, for example. For 10-15 stamina points you can make one combatant completely invulnerable to damage for practically the whole battle. Only enemy spellcasters can be a threat if they freeze the Skinned character(s), and this is rare.

7. And, such threats are easily removed by using Grief or Fetters.

8. Or by just moving next to the caster, which makes him unable to cast spells.

9. The game doesn't let you create a character and doesn't give you moral options like BG or KotoR.

10. There's only one way to solve any given problem or puzzle.

11. Exploring is free but plot is linear - quite normal for most rpg's but for Krondor it poses a problem. If you explore too much in the first two chapters, the rest of the game becomes a piece of cake as you can acquire godly equipment and skills (access to Dimwood in particular should have been restricted). This kind of design begs for at least _some_ encounters tailored to the abilities of the characters, but unfortunately the whole game has only status quo encounters.


12. I'm sure I had some other quibbles as well,

13. I gave the game a rating of 91%
1. when i first played BaK in around 1994ish, i was awestruck by it's graphics. i was amazed. granted, they don't hold up today obviously, but at the time they were cutting edge. yes, pixelation probably could have been tweaked a a bit more, but then again, i'm not a programmer so what do i know.

2. that's a valid criticism. i personally was so caught up in the greatness of BaK that the thought had never even crossed my mind that i need an axe or mace or longbow as opposed to a sword and crossbow. i suppose that axe and longbow enthusiasts will be disappointed by this. my weapons kill good even so, therefore i don't really have a problem with this.

3. were there other 3D RPG's from 1993 or 1994 that used 3D terrain? maybe there are. i thought that such things were beyond what was possible at that time. you tell me.
i also think that you are neglecting all the fairy chests in the Dungeons, each of which provides a highly entertaining, fun-to-solve riddle. finding and unlocking all these fairy chests - which tend to be more prevalent in Dungeons - makes exploring Dungeons fun and compelling.


4. you are wrong about no charging. you can charge the enemy before the battle begins. depending on if you charge well or not, you may gain the advantage of a pre-emptive strike. assess is useless if you don't use it much - since it is an undeveloped skill until you DO use it - therefore you probably hardly ever used it, hence it only gave you useless crap info when you did you use it. assess can help make good strategic decisions IF you have developed the assess skill to a high level.

5. where exactly are you getting an unlimited number of potions from? unless you are deliberately powergaming, then you will have a VERY limited number of potions in your inventory. ditto for summoning items and protective items. for the average gamer, resources in BaK are hard to come by and hence if you use a whole bunch in one battle, like in the example you gave, then you'll have nothing left for all the many other battles that you're gonna have to fight. really, it's not doing you any good to use a whole bunch of resources in one turn.

6. Skin of the Dragon is not as unbalanced as you make think. the other day i was in Chapter 2, and i kept getting annihilated by Rusalki. so i put Skin of the Dragon and Hocho's Haven on the same character. guess what happened? in a few turns, both of those protective spells were GONE. the enemies had damaged the shields to the point where they were gone, and proceeded to slaugther my whole party. Shades will also be able to break thru these spell barries mighty fast. to cast these spells against those type of enemies, is not going to help your party at all (unless you are already strong enough to kill those enemies anyhow)

7. i will agree that Grief of 1000 Nights and Fetters of Rime are both overpowered, unbalanced spells. however, the tradeoff for that is that they are rare and hard to find. the average joe will not acquire these spells. only the dedicated gamer who searches every nook and cranny of the Kingdom. what reward would it be to find a very rare spell, if that spell was merely mediocre?


8. and the enemy can do this same exact thing to you just as easily, often rendering your own caster useless. it would unbalance the game in favor of the AI if the enemy could do this to you, yet you could not do it back.

9. no, you do not create a character. but that's good. because the tradeoff for creating a character is that you have a generic cardboard cut-out which is nothing other than a template. he has no personality or individuality, since the nature of creating a character demands that that character be generic. BaK can tell you a better story because it does not conform to genericism in creating a character. although i admit that some of the Taverns in BaK are generic, and those should have been spruced-up by the devs.

10. incorrect. many of the quests in BaK have multiple, different solutions.

11. ALL games have a linear plot to a certain extent. even KOTOR. yes you can ravage all over the Kingdom in the first couple of chapters and thereby make your party godly - BUT doing so takes one Hell of a lot of time. if i had to hazard an unscientific guess, i'd say that leeting-up-your-party to the fullest extent in the first few chapters, from all over the Kingdom, would take a good 40+ hours worth of hard-working, observant powergaming. after investing all that time in one's characters, it seems fair that the player who did that would be able to start annihilating the enemy AI. how else would you reward them? what would their motivation for exploring be, if they got no in-game payout for doing so? the price of not enforcing just one set path is that players can unbalance themselves.

about Dimwood specifically, i've never tried going in there in the first few chapters. i know that in the chapter when you are stuck in Dimwood, then the enemies are hard to kill (at least they were in my first runthru of the game many years ago). IF those same enemies are there in the first few chapters, then i don't see how allowing access to Dimwood would be unfair, since to get at those chests early on would take a great deal of skill. since i have no personal experience in this area, i can't really make a surefire rebuttal on this one point.

i think it is important to keep in mind that most people, the average joe, is not gonna powergame his way thru the first few chapters. rather, he will go where his goals lie. maybe taking a small, occasional detour. for this person, BaK is going to be an extremely hard game to progress in. the gameplay is balanced for this type of person and in that regard, it is balanced very well.


12. go replay the game, then bring your quibbles here
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif i'm having fun rebutting you.

13. that line is the smartest thing which i've ever seen you post

[Crandaeolon]

Ah. A debate. I don't have much time to hang out on forums these days, but for once I'll indulge myself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


Quote[/b] ]1. when i first played BaK in around 1994ish, i was awestruck by it's graphics. i was amazed. granted, they don't hold up today obviously, but at the time they were cutting edge. yes, pixelation probably could have been tweaked a a bit more, but then again, i'm not a programmer so what do i know.

IIRC, BaK was released in 1993. I already mentioned Ultima Underworld, which was released the same year. Doom was out in 1993, but it was obviously the pinnacle of graphics technology. The first Elder Scrolls was released in 1994, System Shock as well. All those games had superior graphics, more interesting map design, or both.

I stand by my words, BaK was not a graphically advanced game compared to its contemporaries. The 3D world view doesn't serve a useful purpose, it's just a gimmick.


Quote[/b] ] i personally was so caught up in the greatness of BaK that the thought had never even crossed my mind that i need an axe or mace or longbow as opposed to a sword and crossbow.

Well, good for you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif This almost happened to me too, but the Elven Crossbow made me look at this angle more critically. Of course, the weapons availability issue is a small one and has mostly to do with flavor.


Quote[/b] ]were there other 3D RPG's from 1993 or 1994 that used 3D terrain? maybe there are. i thought that such things were beyond what was possible at that time. you tell me.

I already mentioned one in the previous post, Ultima Underworld. If you're observant, you can find two more in this post. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]i also think that you are neglecting all the fairy chests in the Dungeons, each of which provides a highly entertaining, fun-to-solve riddle. finding and unlocking all these fairy chests - which tend to be more prevalent in Dungeons - makes exploring Dungeons fun and compelling.

I'm not neglecting them, I just chose to not mention them. You specifically asked me to highlight what I perceive to be the flaws of BaK, not its good aspects.

Besides, those chests have nothing to do with dungeon architecture, which was what I was talking about.


Quote[/b] ]you are wrong about no charging. you can charge the enemy before the battle begins. depending on if you charge well or not, you may gain the advantage of a pre-emptive strike.

Nope, I'm not. You're talking about an initiative mechanic, which determines who gets to go first in combat. Clicking on a visible enemy triggers the charge attempt, and success is based on the stealth skill. There are no charge mechanics other than this in the combat system.


Quote[/b] ]assess is useless if you don't use it much ... assess can help make good strategic decisions IF you have developed the assess skill to a high level.


I think I got it to around 85%. I still didn't use it much; it was usually far more profitable to do other actions, i.e. to attack or cast a spell. Out of curiosity, I used it on new enemies, but you can usually tell spellcasters from other types anyway.


Quote[/b] ] where exactly are you getting an unlimited number of potions from? unless you are deliberately powergaming, then you will have a VERY limited number of potions in your inventory. ditto for summoning items and protective items. for the average gamer, resources in BaK are hard to come by and hence if you use a whole bunch in one battle, like in the example you gave, then you'll have nothing left for all the many other battles that you're gonna have to fight. really, it's not doing you any good to use a whole bunch of resources in one turn.

Restorations can be bought, found in chests, on enemies, or picked from berry bushes. Even on my first go through the game, when I mainly followed the plot without distractions, I had plenty of restorations on the characters after the first few chapters. In the last few chapters, my chars had at least 48 restorations each, plus inventories stuffed full of other items. You can find a Horn of Algon-Kokoon (the dog summoning item) by just following the plot, and another is available in the chests of Dimwood. And you can buy one as well.

And, the availability of resources has nothing to do with a quirk in the game's mechanics. The player can do too much with a single visit to the inventory. This ability has won me several battles that I otherwise would have lost. It's not balanced and it's not believable.


Quote[/b] ]Skin of the Dragon is not as unbalanced as you make think. the other day i was in Chapter 2, and i kept getting annihilated by Rusalki. so i put Skin of the Dragon and Hocho's Haven on the same character. guess what happened? in a few turns, both of those protective spells were GONE. the enemies had damaged the shields to the point where they were gone, and proceeded to slaugther my whole party. Shades will also be able to break thru these spell barries mighty fast. to cast these spells against those type of enemies, is not going to help your party at all (unless you are already strong enough to kill those enemies anyhow)

AFAIK, Skin of the Dragon does not collapse because of damage. Hocho's Haven does. I guess you encountered a bug that removed both of the protections when Hocho's failed. Try casting Skin only.

I can't remember if Shades can deal damage through a Skin, but they are very rare opponents anyways. The fact remains that the SotD is a good choice too often; hence it's an unbalanced spell.


Quote[/b] ]i will agree that Grief of 1000 Nights and Fetters of Rime are both overpowered, unbalanced spells. however, the tradeoff for that is that they are rare and hard to find.

Both spells are sold in shops and found in a couple of places. If you follow the plot, you will acquire the spells sooner or later. That doesn't qualify as a rare spell in my opinion.


Quote[/b] ]and the enemy can do this same exact thing to you just as easily, often rendering your own caster useless. it would unbalance the game in favor of the AI if the enemy could do this to you, yet you could not do it back.

Agreed. Thank goodness the enemy AI picks targets fairly randomly and doesn't specifically target Owyn, Patrus or Pug for freezing. Still, some spells are unbalanced in relation to other spells, which I was trying to say. AI targeting has nothing to do with the issue.


Quote[/b] ]no, you do not create a character. but that's good. because the tradeoff for creating a character is that you have a generic cardboard cut-out which is nothing other than a template. he has no personality or individuality, since the nature of creating a character demands that that character be generic. BaK can tell you a better story because it does not conform to genericism in creating a character. although i admit that some of the Taverns in BaK are generic, and those should have been spruced-up by the devs.

Creating a character is not mutually exclusive to a good story. Actually, it has very little to do with it. And BaK's story could easily accommodate a personalized protagonist; Owyn could have been replaced by one. In fact, that's what the designers intended to do at first.

Just for an example, KotoR's protagonist has quite a bit of personality IMO. The same could be said of BGs too. Many other games are not at all hurt storywise because the writers have taken character generation into account.

Again, let me stress that this, like most of the others, is a minor quibble. It's merely a relatively common option that doesn't exist in this game; some people would like it, others don't care. I, personally, always favor more options over less. And, they _do_ call it an RPG game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


Quote[/b] ]incorrect. many of the quests in BaK have multiple, different solutions.

How about providing some examples?


Quote[/b] ]after investing all that time in one's characters, it seems fair that the player who did that would be able to start annihilating the enemy AI. how else would you reward them? what would their motivation for exploring be, if they got no in-game payout for doing so?

Of course they need the rewards. But they also need the challenge, which in itself is a reward. I'm sure that many players like to explore most of the available areas before advancing the plot, and the design of BaK ensures that this exploring leads to an easy game. And like you said, BaK can be incredibly challenging for those who do not explore.

Solution: restrict movement (not a good solution IMO) or provide tailored encounters. BaK does not provide tailored encounters, and movement restriction is backward; the first chapters allow for much more freedom than the later ones. This should be the other way around IMO.


Quote[/b] ]i think it is important to keep in mind that most people, the average joe, is not gonna powergame his way thru the first few chapters. rather, he will go where his goals lie. maybe taking a small, occasional detour. for this person, BaK is going to be an extremely hard game to progress in. the gameplay is balanced for this type of person and in that regard, it is balanced very well.

Extremely hard doesn't sound balanced to me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The game's overall difficulty is balanced if you play it how the designers envisioned it. And unfortunately, the designers cannot know how everyone is going to play.

All in all, you're saying that the game's good points outweigh the bad. I agree with that 100%. However, the flaws still exist and won't go anywhere, no matter how much you bring up the good aspects.


Quote[/b] ]i'm having fun rebutting you.

I had fun rebutting your rebuttal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ July 12 2004,13:47)]1. I stand by my words, BaK was not a graphically advanced game compared to its contemporaries. The 3D world view doesn't serve a useful purpose, it's just a gimmick.



2.
Quote[/b] ]i also think that you are neglecting all the fairy chests in the Dungeons, each of which provides a highly entertaining, fun-to-solve riddle. finding and unlocking all these fairy chests - which tend to be more prevalent in Dungeons - makes exploring Dungeons fun and compelling.

I'm not neglecting them, I just chose to not mention them. You specifically asked me to highlight what I perceive to be the flaws of BaK, not its good aspects.

Besides, those chests have nothing to do with dungeon architecture, which was what I was talking about.

3.
Quote[/b] ]you are wrong about no charging. you can charge the enemy before the battle begins. depending on if you charge well or not, you may gain the advantage of a pre-emptive strike.

Nope, I'm not. You're talking about an initiative mechanic, which determines who gets to go first in combat. Clicking on a visible enemy triggers the charge attempt, and success is based on the stealth skill. There are no charge mechanics other than this in the combat system.

4.
Quote[/b] ]assess is useless if you don't use it much ... assess can help make good strategic decisions IF you have developed the assess skill to a high level.


I think I got it to around 85%. I still didn't use it much; it was usually far more profitable to do other actions, i.e. to attack or cast a spell. Out of curiosity, I used it on new enemies, but you can usually tell spellcasters from other types anyway.

5. Restorations can be bought, found in chests, on enemies, or picked from berry bushes. Even on my first go through the game, when I mainly followed the plot without distractions, I had plenty of restorations on the characters after the first few chapters. In the last few chapters, my chars had at least 48 restorations each,

6. plus inventories stuffed full of other items. You can find a Horn of Algon-Kokoon (the dog summoning item) by just following the plot, and another is available in the chests of Dimwood. And you can buy one as well.

And, the availability of resources has nothing to do with a quirk in the game's mechanics. The player can do too much with a single visit to the inventory. This ability has won me several battles that I otherwise would have lost. It's not balanced and it's not believable.

7. AFAIK, Skin of the Dragon does not collapse because of damage. Hocho's Haven does. I guess you encountered a bug that removed both of the protections when Hocho's failed. Try casting Skin only.



8.
Quote[/b] ]i will agree that Grief of 1000 Nights and Fetters of Rime are both overpowered, unbalanced spells. however, the tradeoff for that is that they are rare and hard to find.

Both spells are sold in shops and found in a couple of places. If you follow the plot, you will acquire the spells sooner or later. That doesn't qualify as a rare spell in my opinion.

9. Still, some spells are unbalanced in relation to other spells, which I was trying to say. AI targeting has nothing to do with the issue.



10. Creating a character is not mutually exclusive to a good story. Actually, it has very little to do with it.

11. And BaK's story could easily accommodate a personalized protagonist; Owyn could have been replaced by one. In fact, that's what the designers intended to do at first.

12. Just for an example, KotoR's protagonist has quite a bit of personality IMO. The same could be said of BGs too.

13. Many other games are not at all hurt storywise because the writers have taken character generation into account.

14. Again, let me stress that this, like most of the others, is a minor quibble. It's merely a relatively common option that doesn't exist in this game; some people would like it, others don't care. I, personally, always favor more options over less. And, they _do_ call it an RPG game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

15.
Quote[/b] ]incorrect. many of the quests in BaK have multiple, different solutions.

How about providing some examples?


16. Of course they need the rewards. But they also need the challenge, which in itself is a reward. I'm sure that many players like to explore most of the available areas before advancing the plot, and the design of BaK ensures that this exploring leads to an easy game. And like you said, BaK can be incredibly challenging for those who do not explore.

17. Solution: restrict movement (not a good solution IMO) or provide tailored encounters. BaK does not provide tailored encounters, and movement restriction is backward; the first chapters allow for much more freedom than the later ones. This should be the other way around IMO.


18. However, the flaws still exist and won't go anywhere, no matter how much you bring up the good aspects.


1. i agree that the 3D world of BaK can become quite frustrating when compared to standard 3D games. however, when you apply this fact against the reality that BaK gives you a delicate, perfect balance of being forced to switch between the normal view, the map navigation view, and the main map view if you want to play as efficiently as possible, then you realize that the inablity to do everything you want to with the 3D view actually becomes in asset to gameplay in many ways.

2. the fairy chests are an intergral part of the Dungeon architecture because you have to go out of your way to access all of them. swinging across dozens of pits, etc. i agree that the Dungeon architecture could have been better and the criticisms you've made are valid. however, it is an oversight - a matter of you knocking Bak too hard, to say that the Dungeons are boring when you take into account all the many fairy chests littered around the Dungeons in odd, hard-to-reach or divergent-from-the-main-path places

3. first you claim there is no charge in BaK. i prove there is. now you say well, charge does not matter. charge gives you a good advantage, just like it would in real life. you can charge in BaK, and a successful charge can help your gameplay greatly. so what are you complaining about, by still (sort of) saying there is no charge. you have me bewildered on this one. what is it that you want, exactly? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

4. yet another question of what is it that you want, exactly? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif. if you have developed your assess skill, then it tells you all relevant combat statistics of your enemy. with these stats, you can make decisions that you may not otherwise have been informed enough to make. what more could assess have done to make you happy? random smites from the death goddess every once in a while when you use the assess skill? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

5. yes Restoratives can be bought, but not cheaply (unless you're rich from powergaming). they cost 50 gold sovereigns just for a swig of 12 uses, and each use only gains backs about 6 points of your health. so for 50 gold, you can get just one party member back to 50% health via Restoratives. seeing how rare gold is in the game, i'd say that Restoratives are very balanced, even when used en masse via Inventory during combat. yes Restoratives are also found in bushes, but not often, and the ones that are only give you 2 - 3 swigs each.

6. so you have summoning items. they won't last you very long. that Horn you're talking about is one big mofo. it takes up a ton of space in your Inventory. all summoning items do. one Horn only gives you 6 uses, i believe. for all the space that it is taking up in your Inventory, 6 uses is nothing. if your Inventory is stocked full of summoning items, then it follows that you have deprived yourself of many other necessary items instead.


it seems to me that you are neglecting - and wrongfully so -to take into account that very limited inventory space severely limits the usefulness of massing items to help yourself during combat

7. interesting. i have researched this possibility. it appears that you are right on this point. i will concede that Skin is unbalanced and overpowered. needs a major nerfing patch, which unfortunately, it will never get. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

8. unfortunately for you, the rest of my research works against you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Fetters of Rime is only in one chest in the whole game, is only sold in one shop in the whole game, and is only found in one House in the whole game. that certainly makes it rare when you consider that the Kingdom as a whole is HUGE. also, Patrus has it by default i believe - but Patrus is supposed to be a powerful old Magician and if all he had was Owyn's early-game crap spells by default, then Patrus wouldn't be very impactful as the powerful mage character which he is intended, to be, now would he? they needed to give Patrus some umph, and Fetters is one way that they do this.

Grief of 1000 Nights can only be found in a mere two places in the entire game. nowhere else. 2 places. that is it. you can't get much rarer than that *guess you need one of these now* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif


by following the plot, you won't get Fetters until you get Patrus in the mid-game. you won't get Grief until chapter 7. if you happened to miss Grief in Dimwood in chapter 7, then you won't actually get it until the very last chapter of the game, presuming you stick to the plot. to find these overpowered spells sooner means that you did extra work to acquire them, and hence deserve their added power

9. yes some spells are far too good (Grief), and others are far too crappy (Flamecast). i agree that this is one of BaK's few flaws. but show me an RPG which does not have any overpowered or underpowered skills, and i'll be speechless. i do not think that such a game exists.

10. not mutually exclusive, but it does vastly limit the potential for characterization of the main character.

11. this would not work in BaK since BaK is the story of several honorable men all fighting together for the greater good. no one of them outshines or is more important than the other. they are all necessary contributors. having a personalized protagonist would thrwart this concept. in addition it just wouldn't make sense to be playing in chapters when you don't have you in your party. since Owyn is not in every chapter of BaK, neither could his personalized replacement be, unless they were gonna change the story concept into something lesser than what it is now.

12. no they do not. they have no personality whatsoever. they are generic cardboard cut-outs. KOTOR varied this a little bit by having your character appearance change based on alignment - but that's just superficial icing. it does nothing to address the meat of the character, or give him any personality beyond a nice look.

13. KOTOR was very hurt by this, because your character never had dialogue choices that are exclusive to his alignment - meaning, STATEMENTS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO YOUR ALIGNMENT SHOULD NEVER APPEAR, UNLESS YOU ASK THEM TO.

for example: this is to say that despite me being a Dark Side Master bad guy in KOTOR, all of the good guy choices would always still appear to me. i was like: what the heck, where is my option to TURN OFF all good guy options? this really ruined the immersion factor of KOTOR for me. even when my generic character had been entirely corrupted by the Dark Side, he was still given the option to say good guy things that he would never ever choose to say. but since the character is really just a generic template, the game has no choice but to force such annoying and immersion-ruining dialogue choices onto my screen. like; i was constantly given the option to say that is not my name any more despite the fact that my character had PROUDLY reclaimed his old name. every time i kept seeing the option to say that is not my name any more over and over and over again for the whole game, even AFTER i have taken my old name back, then the genericism of KOTOR's character system really starts to sink in.

14. i agree, the more choices the better. i am simply saying that the generic character system of KOTOR and BG 2 has many flaws (as noted in point 13. above). there are strengths and weaknesses to both formats.

15. example: to get to a certain guy's house in order to beat a sidequest, you can either poison some rations, leave them in a chest near his house overnight til he eats them and gets sick. or you can go thru the back alley type of way to his house, in which case you have to survive a very difficult trap instead.

16. KOTOR is not challenging either. i could breeze thru almost all of that game. the only reason there are hard parts in KOTOR (this refers to any point after you first get Zaalbar) is because the dumb, incompetent ally AI will run headfirst into any enemy against your will and your only choices are either to follow him, or let him die. either way, both of those choices result in YOUR death too if the enemy is strong enough. of course, i do not equate any of that with challenge. struggling with shoddy pathfinding does not equal challenge. BaK would be just as challenging as KOTOR (even if you powergamed all the way thru BaK) - if in BaK - like in KOTOR - your party members ran, one at a time, towards every single enemy against your will, before you had a chance to rest after a long battle. yes challenge could be better in BaK - but it's no worse in BaK than in any other game. certainly the challenge is not any better in KOTOR.

17. tailored encounters would be a dream come true. i'm all for having the AI generate and then throw at me, bigger, badder, leet monsters to fight my gosu super-leet party. unfortunately, no RPG game that i am aware of has this feature. it would be most welcome. i see what you're saying about the challenge in BaK being off-key and with much room for improvement - i agree with that. however, BaK is no more flawed in this area than even the most popular and so-called best RPG of this Millenium, KOTOR.

18. i know BaK has flaws. however, many of the things that you have raised are not quite flaws. it seems that on some things, you expect that devs to be miracle workers rather than game makers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and on other things, the flaws found in BaK are no more prevalent than similar flaws which can be nitpicked out of any other title.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]1. i agree that the 3D world of BaK can become quite frustrating when compared to standard 3D games. however, when you apply this fact against the reality that BaK gives you a delicate, perfect balance of being forced to switch between the normal view, the map navigation view, and the main map view if you want to play as efficiently as possible, then you realize that the inablity to do everything you want to with the 3D view actually becomes in asset to gameplay in many ways.

A good 2D world could easily have done what Krondor's 3D does, since BaK's world is not 3D. You may view the switching between the 3D window and the 2D overhead view as an asset, but I found it somewhat tedious, since the 3D window has very little gameplay value (there are no elevations, very few features, and combats use a different view anyway). For example, when you use the Spyglass to spot things, the game switches to the overhead view to display the red dots. Why not show the items directly in the 3D view?

Or, why bother with 3D when it's clearly not needed? I still think it's just a gimmick. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


Quote[/b] ]2. however, it is an oversight - a matter of you knocking Bak too hard, to say that the Dungeons are boring when you take into account all the many fairy chests littered around the Dungeons in odd, hard-to-reach or divergent-from-the-main-path places

Ah, now I remember what bothered me about those chests. They're all over the place - bunches of chests lying on open fields, in the middle of corridors, even next to roads in populated areas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif Don't you find their placement sometimes a bit silly? I can understand chests hidden in out-of-the-way places, but not right next to roads...

And about the dungeons - they certainly were among the weakest parts of the game, even with moredhel chests and all. They could have been much more compact and interesting.


Quote[/b] ]3. first you claim there is no charge in BaK. i prove there is. now you say well, charge does not matter. charge gives you a good advantage, just like it would in real life. you can charge in BaK, and a successful charge can help your gameplay greatly. so what are you complaining about, by still (sort of) saying there is no charge. you have me bewildered on this one. what is it that you want, exactly?

You're twisting my words, or perhaps you didn't understand what I tried to say. You play MTW, do I really have to explain what charging means? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

The charging you are talking about is _only_ in the flavor text that pops up when your group wins the initiative. It could as easily say something about sneaking into the midst of the enemy, which is exactly what happens -stealth skill determines success or failure. The flavor text is somewhat misleading; it doesn't tell the player what is relevant in surprising enemies.

I said nothing about charge does not matter. Winning the initiative can be a decisive advantage, no dispute about that. I only said that there is no charge mechanic (=getting an attack and/or damage bonus when rushing an opponent) in the combat system, and there is none.

Besides, the _main_ point was that the combat system is very simplistic, and could provide more tactical options. After all, there is quite a lot of combat in this game, so why not spice it up a bit? It's not that more varied combat mechanics didn't exist at the time; heh, even the '80s Gold Box AD&D games had more sophisticated combat than BaK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]4. yet another question of what is it that you want, exactly? . if you have developed your assess skill, then it tells you all relevant combat statistics of your enemy. with these stats, you can make decisions that you may not otherwise have been informed enough to make. what more could assess have done to make you happy? random smites from the death goddess every once in a while when you use the assess skill?

Let's think about it a bit. Assessing an enemy takes a turn in combat and provides little information if you don't develop it by using it often. Even after the assess skill is high, you must spend a turn to get the information. During that turn you could also have attacked and weakened the enemy, making his attacks less likely to succeed; or, you could have cast a spell, potentially turning the tide of the battle. Or, you could have visited the inventory to perform as many actions as you like.

Clearly, assess is a skill that requires a lot of investment for a very narrow-purpose usage. Thus, it should have been balanced against the other options. Possible options could include making it a free action (like the look features of many other games) or getting info on all opponents with a single use.


Quote[/b] ]5. yes Restoratives can be bought, but not cheaply (unless you're rich from powergaming). they cost 50 gold sovereigns just for a swig of 12 uses, and each use only gains backs about 6 points of your health. so for 50 gold, you can get just one party member back to 50% health via Restoratives. seeing how rare gold is in the game, i'd say that Restoratives are very balanced, even when used en masse via Inventory during combat. yes Restoratives are also found in bushes, but not often, and the ones that are only give you 2 - 3 swigs each.

Lol, I thought they were _more_ expensive than 50 gold per 12 restoratives Even without powergaming, it's perfectly possible to maintain a stock of 24+ restoratives per character in the midgame. I can't imagine why you think money is _that_ scarce. Don't you loot enemies? Repair weapons & armor before selling them? How about barding? Do you buy all your equipment from shops?

And anyways, I tended to use them for only emergency healing (=in combat and when curing near-death chars), preferring to use herb packs, resting and inns to gain health outside of combat. Or freeze the last remaining enemy and rest IN combat - another dirty trick that shouldn't be possible. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But, all this is besides the main point, which was that you can do too much with a single visit to the inventory.


Quote[/b] ]6. so you have summoning items. they won't last you very long. that Horn you're talking about is one big mofo. it takes up a ton of space in your Inventory. all summoning items do. one Horn only gives you 6 uses, i believe. for all the space that it is taking up in your Inventory, 6 uses is nothing. if your Inventory is stocked full of summoning items, then it follows that you have deprived yourself of many other necessary items instead.

The Horn takes up one space. The Rusalki heart also takes up one space. If one space equals a ton of space, then fine. Don't carry 'em. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

They also last quite long when used only when needed: in tight situations. Just the ones where you visit the inventory to quaff a dozen restoratives, poison your Elven Crossbow Bolts, and summon a couple of doggies to help. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]it seems to me that you are neglecting - and wrongfully so -to take into account that very limited inventory space severely limits the usefulness of massing items to help yourself during combat

48 restoratives - 2 spaces. Silver spider - 1 space. Horn of Algon-Kokoon - 1 space. Let's throw in an Althafain's Icer for the melee weapon - 1 space. That's 5 out of 20. I can assure you, my characters have always enough space for such useful items.


Quote[/b] ]8. unfortunately for you, the rest of my research works against you. Fetters of Rime is only in one chest in the whole game, is only sold in one shop in the whole game, and is only found in one House in the whole game. that certainly makes it rare when you consider that the Kingdom as a whole is HUGE. also, Patrus has it by default i believe - but Patrus is supposed to be a powerful old Magician and if all he had was Owyn's early-game crap spells by default, then Patrus wouldn't be very impactful as the powerful mage character which he is intended, to be, now would he? they needed to give Patrus some umph, and Fetters is one way that they do this.

You're wasting your time researching these things, especially when you consider that my original balance complaint was mainly directed at Skin of the Dragon. Grief and Fetters are tolerably unbalanced; Grief is not effective against all opponents and Fetters requires a spellcasting roll to hit. In the late game Fetters is too powerful, though.

Grief can be found in at least two places, and both of those were along the plotline or at least sideplots IIRC. Sethanon was one. Dimwood probably another. Getting into Sethanon is easy (wear Elf Boots, cast Dragon's Breath and just waltz in at night). And Sethanon is quite hard to miss, considering that it's an important place in Feist's books and is marked on the Kingdom map. If your research revealed that it's not sold anywhere, then ok. I believe you. Perhaps I confused it with some other spell that was sold in Silden.

Fetters is easier to find than Grief, and more powerful in the late game (no creature is immune to the freeze effect). It's sold somewhere near Cavall Keep, which is involved in the plot in Chapter 2. You can also find it in a simple moredhel chest near Romney. Can't remember the third location.

And Patrus... *cough*. Even non-powergamers will get Owyn to be much more powerful than that old coot by the time he enters the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Skin of the Dragon is the main spell balance problem in the game. It's easy to find and arguably the most powerful spell in the game; it defeats all traps and ensures victory in most combat encounters. There are other very powerful spells like Firestorm, Mad God's Rage and Touch of Lims-Kragma, but they are _actually_ hard to find.


Quote[/b] ]9. yes some spells are far too good (Grief), and others are far too crappy (Flamecast). i agree that this is one of BaK's few flaws. but show me an RPG which does not have any overpowered or underpowered skills, and i'll be speechless. i do not think that such a game exists.

You're right, of course. But I can show you many RPGs that have better balance.


Quote[/b] ]10. not mutually exclusive, but it does vastly limit the potential for characterization of the main character.

We're dealing with an interactive medium here, not a book or movie. A core aspect of roleplaying is to create a character that the player can relate to, and one that develops into the story during the game. This is not all that difficult to write, as has been demonstrated by several RPGs in the past.

KotoR allows nearly complete freedom in creating the character, and the whole _story_ revolves around it without a problem. He has a past, which is piece by piece revealed by interaction with NPCs. He has a future that you can define, the very heart of roleplaying. He can behave as the player likes, as a villain or a hero. He can even have a tacky romantic relationship I think that's plenty of characterization that wouldn't even be possible by the standard methods of book or movie.

Sometimes narrowing down the character choices does have a good impact on the story, like in Torment where you're forced to play a specific individual, but with freedom to pick his attributes and behave as you like. But, it's all in the story. Indeed, just like Feist's books, BaK's story follows several characters in different places and no one is above others in importance. This makes it all the easier to insert a player-created character, not harder The other characters would still be there, advance the plot, interact with each other. Just like in dozens of games out there. The PC does not need to take the spotlight.


Quote[/b] ] it just wouldn't make sense to be playing in chapters when you don't have you in your party. since Owyn is not in every chapter of BaK, neither could his personalized replacement be, unless they were gonna change the story concept into something lesser than what it is now.

I would have no problem with the player character being somewhere else occasionally. Several games already do that, so it would be nothing weird. And I can't see how it could break the story. BaK's story is special because it's so good, not because of some unique storytelling technique.


Quote[/b] ]13. KOTOR was very hurt by this, because your character never had dialogue choices that are exclusive to his alignment - meaning, STATEMENTS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO YOUR ALIGNMENT SHOULD NEVER APPEAR, UNLESS YOU ASK THEM TO.

Eh? What would you suggest then? Remove the choice from the player? What if the player wants to play a character who is suffering from multiple personalities? Or suddenly wants to turn back from the Dark Side? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]15. example: to get to a certain guy's house in order to beat a sidequest, you can either poison some rations, leave them in a chest near his house overnight til he eats them and gets sick. or you can go thru the back alley type of way to his house, in which case you have to survive a very difficult trap instead.

Okay, ya got me there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif That's one. Got anything more complex?


Quote[/b] ]16. KOTOR is not challenging either. i could breeze thru almost all of that game.

Agreed, KotoR is not challenging and the AI is stupid. Absolutely no argument there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]17. tailored encounters would be a dream come true. i'm all for having the AI generate and then throw at me, bigger, badder, leet monsters to fight my gosu super-leet party. unfortunately, no RPG game that i am aware of has this feature. it would be most welcome. i see what you're saying about the challenge in BaK being off-key and with much room for improvement - i agree with that. however, BaK is no more flawed in this area than even the most popular and so-called best RPG of this Millenium, KOTOR.

KotoR has tailored challenges, though the overall difficulty is too low IMO, mostly because of the overpowered Jedi classes. Neverwinter Nights, and all D&D 3rd edition games, have extensive systems for tailored encounters. Morrowind has tailored encounters. Of older games, many XP- and level-based games vary difficulty according to the player's abilities, including Arena and Daggerfall. Possibly Gold Boxes too, can't remember.

Baldur's Gates, Fallouts and Torment don't have tailored challenges, but the balance is good because character advancement based on experience points is much easier to balance than a skill-based system. Available resources are also well controlled.


Quote[/b] ]18. i know BaK has flaws. however, many of the things that you have raised are not quite flaws.

Yes, well, that's just my version. Tastes differ. You _did_ call it the best game ever, which implies perfection (or near-perfection), and I politely disagreed with that. Then you asked me to provide specifics, and I was happy to oblige. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ] it seems that on some things, you expect that devs to be miracle workers rather than game makers. and on other things, the flaws found in BaK are no more prevalent than similar flaws which can be nitpicked out of any other title.

Nah, not miracle workers. But I do believe that thinking is good. (Anyone should have known that invulnerability-at-will is not balanced.) Mistakes are mistakes; they don't go anywhere no matter how many mitigating issues there are (tight budget, limited developing time, human errors, lack of testing etc.) Like you said, all games have flaws. It's just a matter of taste which ones are significant.

How about we start winding this debate down? I like BaK a lot and feel almost like a devil's advocate here. Let's bash KotoR instead? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ July 13 2004,08:41)]1. You may view the switching between the 3D window and the 2D overhead view as an asset, but I found it somewhat tedious, since the 3D window has very little gameplay value (there are no elevations, very few features, and combats use a different view anyway). For example, when you use the Spyglass to spot things, the game switches to the overhead view to display the red dots. Why not show the items directly in the 3D view?



2. Ah, now I remember what bothered me about those chests. They're all over the place - bunches of chests lying on open fields, in the middle of corridors, even next to roads in populated areas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif Don't you find their placement sometimes a bit silly? I can understand chests hidden in out-of-the-way places, but not right next to roads...




3. Let's think about it a bit. Assessing an enemy takes a turn in combat and provides little information if you don't develop it by using it often. Even after the assess skill is high, you must spend a turn to get the information. During that turn you could also have attacked and weakened the enemy, making his attacks less likely to succeed; or, you could have cast a spell, potentially turning the tide of the battle. Or, you could have visited the inventory to perform as many actions as you like.

Clearly, assess is a skill that requires a lot of investment for a very narrow-purpose usage. Thus, it should have been balanced against the other options. Possible options could include making it a free action (like the look features of many other games) or getting info on all opponents with a single use.

4. I can't imagine why you think money is _that_ scarce. Don't you loot enemies? Repair weapons & armor before selling them? How about barding? Do you buy all your equipment from shops?



5. I would have no problem with the player character being somewhere else occasionally. Several games already do that, so it would be nothing weird. And I can't see how it could break the story. BaK's story is special because it's so good, not because of some unique storytelling technique.

6.
Quote[/b] ] KOTOR was very hurt by this, because your character never had dialogue choices that are exclusive to his alignment - meaning, STATEMENTS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO YOUR ALIGNMENT SHOULD NEVER APPEAR, UNLESS YOU ASK THEM TO.

Eh? What would you suggest then? Remove the choice from the player?



7. Okay, ya got me there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif That's one. Got anything more complex?



8. Morrowind has tailored encounters. Of older games, many XP- and level-based games vary difficulty according to the player's abilities, including Arena and Daggerfall.


9. You _did_ call it the best game ever, which implies perfection (or near-perfection)


10. How about we start winding this debate down? I like BaK a lot and feel almost like a devil's advocate here. Let's bash KotoR instead? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
1. my take on this issue is that it's good for these things to not be in the 3D view because it takes more skill and player involvement to hunt down the loot given that you must switch views. i liken this to the 3 distinct vision modes of Predator in the Aliens vs. Predator games. if you try to play as Predator and only ever used one vision mode, you're gonna get slaughtered. rather, to be successful, you have to switch between all your available vision modes depending on the situation. BaK's map-switching mode uses a similar principle to this. the separate vision modes of AvP are widely considered by professional critics to be an awesome feature that greatly enhances gameplay. so how come this same feature can't be good in BaK too, esp. since BaK is the one who pioneered this gameplay mechanic, paving the way for AvP to do the same? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

2. i haven't found too many fairy chests right next to the main roads. but anyhow, beastly super-strong trolls are all over the main roads and the Moredhel know this, hence they probably had to have a quicky way to transfer weapons in a hurry to travelling warriors before the trolls etc. massacre them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

3. the whole point of assess is that you have to sacrifice a turn in order to gain recon info. isn't that what balance is all about? anyhow, i have found that it's easy to get assess to a very high level without using it. seems to me that assess raises very quickly, much more quickly than other skills. for example, i myself had rarely used assess, yet by chapter 3 my Gorath already had a 91% assess rating. i did not ever emphazize to learn the assess skill. all that i did was go to a few lectures etc. that boosted my assess skill. i really am confused as to how my assess got so high without me actively developing it. i guess the devs realized that for balance purposes, they should make assess easy to master when compared to other skills, and based on my experience it seems that the devs have in fact implemented this into the gameplay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif


4. for me, money is not scarce. i powergamed thru chapter 3, and by the end i had all of the most powerful spells, armor, and weapons available at that point - all with level 3 blessing on them. and i had 4000 gold to spare. i ended up spending my gold on some crappy, un-needed spells just for the sake of having them (ie: Nightfingers), and when i ended the chapter with pretty much everything possible to acquire at that point in the game, i still had 2500 gold to spare. of course, i was very liberally spending money on Teleport quite a lot, so if i had made a vested effort then i'm sure my dollar amount could have been far higher still.

however, me and you are not the average BaK player. we must keep that in mind. the average player is not gonna be able to milk the game for the kind of money that you and i would. rather, the average player is going to struggle just to have enough money for basic things. selling most of the weapons you find, even if they are at 100%, is not gonna make you very much at all. standard kingdom armor, broadswords, moredhel lamphreys etc... all take up a ton of space, and even at their very best price, they are hardly worth anything. to make money by selling that crap is a joke. yet that is the main way that most people will have to rough it early on in BaK. most people won't be able to bard in the first few chapters. they'll get thrown out of Taverns easy and will not insist on fixing their barding skills til they don't (something i myself would do). i remember my first runthru of BaK, when i ran into the jester from the Northlands who was selling his lute...back then i was very happy to get it as it actually helped me. this time, on my runthru of BaK for this year, i did not even need that lute. by the time i met the jester in chapter 3 and bought his lute, Owyn was already at 100% barding. so was Gorath. James was at around 95%. i used the jester's lute 10 times, and all my guys had 100% barding. now i was stuck with a totally useless lute that had 110 or so charges left. when i look at this, and realize that the devs put that jester's lute in the game to help people who are gonna need it and realize that i did not need the help, the only conclusion is that i have powergamed myself above and beyond the call of duty and terribly breached the devs' intended balance design. however, the average BaK player will not be in that same boat; just because I have gone overboard, it does not mean that most people will.

5. what other games do this? and by do this - i mean, leave you without your main character for a significant amount of time. in all the games i've ever seen where you are without your main character, it is only for a short bursts of 15 - 30 mins at MAX. that is hardly the same as a system like in BaK, where if you are without a character in a certain chapter, then that character will not be seen again for several dozen hours or more (depending on how familiar you are with the game and if you're using walkthrus or just playing vanilla etc.). what i'm asking is: name me some games where the main PC is gone for HUGE stretches of time at once.

whilst i would not have a problem with this and neither would you, i don't think the average gamer would be able to swallow that concept, unfortunately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif hence, i don't think that most devs would dare to do it.

6. yes, remove the choice from the player unless the player pro-actively does something to turn it on. ie: goes to meditate in some bushes, or something. KOTOR took away my choice after i turned to the Dark Side and the game FORCED ME to kill Mission. no matter how hard i tried to keep Mission alive, the game told me she MUST die since i was part of the Dark Side. my only choice was to do it myself or have Zaalbaar do it. if KOTOR is going to take away a player's choices - based on alignment - in examples like this - then certainly it can be consistent enough to also take away all the dialogue choices that say: Do not call me that evil name, I am a good boy and I renounce that evil name which are CONSTANTLY popping up even for Dark Side characters who were FORCED to kill Mission. that's just bad design, man.


7. i believe there are 2 distinct ways to solve chapter 4, but considering that i am in chapter 4 right now, i don't want to jade my experience by looking them up ATM since i haven't played chapter 4 for many years and it will ruin my fun to go read all the plot points/quest solutions rather than experiencing them as they comes to me during gameplay


8. for educational purposes, i am curious as to how such tailored encounters are calculated/manifested. if you could give me a general idea, i'd be much obliged. i've never played those games as of yet hence i am ignorant about this concept.

9. BaK, while not perfect, is the closest game to perfection that i have ever played.

10. sounds good to me. i was most interested in seeing how my rabid fanboyism for BaK would hold up to scrutiny. seems that there are some things that even me, a rabid fanboy, can not gloss over enough. this makes me sad. if only Dynamix was not dead and could patch the game just once more, then at least all the balance issues could easily have been fixed with a few numerical changes to the stats coding. at least i did win on a few points, tho
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

anyhow since you have given BaK a 91% then i consider you to be in the BaK fanboy club and based on Rosacrux's praise, i am taking the liberty of admitting him as well. i am confident that in time faisal and frogbeastegg can be lulled into this club as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

i find it interesting that no one in this thread has said BaK is a bad game. with most games, you get the that rocks crowd and always at least some from the that sucks crowd too. yet with BaK, it seems that there is no that sucks' crowd. at least, not amongst intelligent gamers. i know that if the floodgates were open to ask everyone in the world about if BaK is great or sucks, then some horny teenage boys would say wtf those graphics suck what a POS game. good to know that the people here at the Org are not as shallow as that and can appreciate a masterpiece for what it is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

Heya Navaros,sorry for not posting back,i managed to get to chapter 3 at lastI stopped at Cavalls Keep yesterday,i already finished the guild wars,and joftaz quests,i was wondering if i missed any other quests?

[frogbeastegg]

I installed Antara without a hit, it appeared to be working perfectly; and then I tried to move. Holy Hera I can outrun superman, day and night cycles every 30 seconds, it is quite unplayable. I spent a bit of time looking at the remaining Antara websites, there isn't much I can do without more fiddling about with my pc than I'd like, so I uninstalled it, no trips down memory lane for this frog.

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ July 16 2004,01:41)]Heya Navaros,sorry for not posting back,i managed to get to chapter 3 at lastI stopped at Cavalls Keep yesterday,i already finished the guild wars,and joftaz quests,i was wondering if i missed any other quests?
there are quests all over the Kingdom

check out the Lecture Hall at Malac's cross, that is cool. the Abbott in the Temple can sell you a ticket

there is also the Oracle of Aal by Malac's Cross (just a bit to the southwest of Malac's Cross)... definitely worth checking that out

you definitely wanna do the grain quest... that involves trudging around near the Northlands, so there's lots of trolls who can mess you up. be sure to have a tuning fork if you can, otherwise those trolls will be tough cookies to crack

i think chapter 3 is the last chapter that you can do the grain quest in, so definitely do it now

you need to go to the Temple of Dala and talk to the priests there to start the grain quest. if you haven't been there already, then it's near the middle of one of the (or maybe the) northernmost roads that you can access. ie: the same road as Dencamp-on-the-Teeth, Highcastle, and Northwarden (could be wrong the exactitudes but you get the general idea i hope https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif )

you may wanna kill the Rusalki for the Temple of Eortis in Silden, although you don't really get a good reward for doing so. chapter 3 is the last chance you'll get to do this if you have not already done so. to do this quest, you have to hunt at night all over the place between Silden and Romney. many of these Rusalki only come out at night during ambushes...so you have to be very agile and explorative to find them all

congratz on getting to chapter 3 that's hard-work, we salute your progress cheers

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]1. my take on this issue is that it's good for these things to not be in the 3D view because it takes more skill and player involvement to hunt down the loot given that you must switch views. i liken this to the 3 distinct vision modes of Predator in the Aliens vs. Predator games.

There's quite a bit of difference IMO. AvP's vision modes are all part of the same view, and it takes just the push of a button and a brief flash of the screen to change the vision mode.

In BaK you're actually fiddling with different user interfaces, and on the machine I had at the time it took a moment to switch windows. The 3D mode also brings some unnecessary annoyances with it; accessing objects, especially looting corpses after a large battle can be troublesome. I even found myself trying to kill enemies as far apart from each other as possible and in a horizontal line, taking a few extra hits just to make looting easier https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

AvP is a fast-paced action game, and the game-enhancing aspect of the vision modes is their ability to make spotting some things easier while making other things harder to spot, forcing the player to decide which mode gives him the fastest reaction time against the enemies in the area. BaK's 3D and overhead views also provide different information, but there's a catch: BaK is not real-time. There's no need to respond quickly to an attacking Alien, therefore the reaction time aspect goes out the window.

Given a chance, a Predator would of course pick a vision mode that lets him see all opponents with clarity. He does not, however, have that option, so the need to juggle vision modes provides a nice feeling of urgency in an environment where enemies may attack at any time. In BaK, there can't be a feeling of urgency because it's turn-based. Thus, there's no real need to keep information in separate places to help create the feeling of urgency.

One could argue that the 3D view in BaK enhances gameplay because it makes the player explore areas in a more concrete fashion; you won't find much stuff if you just stick to roads and don't look around. But, that's a hollow argument because 2D environments can have a plenty of exploration without problems.

Some other games use a BaK-like frozen world time system in a 3D view, most notably the Might&Magic series. Unlike BaK, the 3D environment in these games is justifiable because there are a plenty of features (and 3D terrain in the later M&Ms) and the combat system uses the same main 3D view. In BaK the combat view is separate, NPCs appear from nowhere and the terrain is entirely 2D.


Quote[/b] ]BaK is the one who pioneered this gameplay mechanic, paving the way for AvP to do the same?

Oh please. AvP's vision modes don't have anything to do with BaK's interface. And AFAIK, BaK didn't pioneer anything, except maybe the storytelling style, and that was borrowed from mr. Feist.


Quote[/b] ]2. i have found that it's easy to get assess to a very high level without using it. seems to me that assess raises very quickly, much more quickly than other skills.

Okay, I'll take your word for it, and retract the comment about assessment requiring a lot of investment. My other comments stand, though.


Quote[/b] ]3. however, me and you are not the average BaK player. we must keep that in mind. the average player is not gonna be able to milk the game for the kind of money that you and i would. rather, the average player is going to struggle just to have enough money for basic things. selling most of the weapons you find, even if they are at 100%, is not gonna make you very much at all. standard kingdom armor, broadswords, moredhel lamphreys etc...

By mid-late game you'll get Swords of Kinnur, rapiers, Keshian Tapirs and such from enemies and chests, and each of those fetches a pretty penny. I'd say that the loot in BaK is actually _more_ than in comparable games because of the realistic loot that the enemies carry. Though, gotta agree that in the beginning the going is rough.


Quote[/b] ] in all the games i've ever seen where you are without your main character, it is only for a short bursts of 15 - 30 mins at MAX.

Yeah, relatively short periods usually, though I've played a couple of games where the main char was away at least 20% of the time. My memory is fuzzy, but I think one of the Might & Magics was one. The other was an AD&D game, IIRC.


Quote[/b] ]8. for educational purposes, i am curious as to how such tailored encounters are calculated/manifested. if you could give me a general idea, i'd be much obliged. i've never played those games as of yet hence i am ignorant about this concept.

I think the best example (and one that I'm most familiar with) is the Challenge Rating system introduced in Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition. Basically, each critter has a CR which is calculated based on its abilities. The math is rather complicated and of course not always 100% accurate, but it's much, much better than just guesstimating it.

Encounters are usually balanced for a party of four characters that should be of different class. The iconic, or default, party for balancing purposes has a fighter, a cleric, a wizard and a rogue - a good mix of abilities. The average level of these characters is calculated, and that number equals the Challenge Rating that will provide a moderately challenging encounter for the party. For example, a single Ogre (CR 2) is a good encounter for a party of 2nd-level characters - the chars may get roughed up a bit, but no one should get killed. A Gnoll (CR 1) would be a pushover, a Gargoyle (CR 4) would be a very difficult opponent (quite possibly resulting in at least one dead character), and a Hill Giant (CR 7) would probably tear the party apart without breaking a sweat.

Multiple enemies increase the challenge rating by 2 for each 100% increase in number of opponents. 2 Hill Giants would equal a single CR 9 monster, 4 giants = CR 11 and so on. In the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide there are all sorts of tables for calculating encounters with multiple different creatures, encounters involving traps or special circumstances and so forth. These same mechanics have been incorporated into Neverwinter Nights, and mapmakers can simply define an area of the map where an encounter will be spawned based on the player's level. You can tweak the parameters to make the encounter relatively harder or easier, define the min and max number of opponents, create a list of possibly spawnable monsters for the encounter etc.

There are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account, for example the characters can have better or worse equipment than the default gear for their level, the party may consist of wrong classes for the encounter (undead are tougher if the party doesn't have a cleric), the party may have sustained damage from a previous battle and so on. It's not a perfect system, but generally it makes the lives of designers and gamemasters a hell of a lot easier https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Skill-based systems (like BaK) are harder to balance than level-based systems, since there are no clear tiers in character ability to work from. Formerly a fan of skill-based systems, I sure appreciate the XP- and level-based RP systems more these days now that I've had to design stuff myself.

Hope that made any sense. If ya have any questions, just shoot. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ July 16 2004,10:32)]1. There's quite a bit of difference IMO. AvP's vision modes are all part of the same view, and it takes just the push of a button and a brief flash of the screen to change the vision mode.

2. The 3D mode also brings some unnecessary annoyances with it; accessing objects, especially looting corpses after a large battle can be troublesome. I even found myself trying to kill enemies as far apart from each other as possible and in a horizontal line, taking a few extra hits just to make looting easier https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

3. AvP is a fast-paced action game, and the game-enhancing aspect of the vision modes is their ability to make spotting some things easier while making other things harder to spot, forcing the player to decide which mode gives him the fastest reaction time against the enemies in the area. BaK's 3D and overhead views also provide different information, but there's a catch: BaK is not real-time. There's no need to respond quickly to an attacking Alien, therefore the reaction time aspect goes out the window.



4. Oh please. AvP's vision modes don't have anything to do with BaK's interface.

5. And AFAIK, BaK didn't pioneer anything, except maybe the storytelling style, and that was borrowed from mr. Feist.
1. it does take longer to switch views in BaK than in AvP, but not much longer

2. i agree with corpse looting. that is a big prob in BaK because of the sloppy hit detection when you are trying to click on a corpse. if corpses are laying close to each other, then often it will require many clickthrus and re-adjustment of where you're standing to be able to hit the corpse you are trying to access. this is probably my biggest single annoyance with BaK. i always compare the inventory of the body i've just clicked on with the one of the next body i click on. if they are exactly the same, then i know that the game's hit detection has failed and hence i try again

but now that i think about, we should look on the bright side: for us BaK is an easy game, and making sure that we kill enemies as far away from each other as possible whilst in the heat of battle provides us with some much-needed challenge and a new gameplay dynamic

i think i'm gonna start doing this from now. makes the game harder for me, plus i will be far less annoyed when looting. it's a win/win situation https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

3. no, BaK does not require reaction time persay. however, the rushing player is going to miss-out on most of the loot in the game since he will only be using the one vision mode. he will not be getting the most out of his gameplay experience. to get all the rewards that BaK has to offer, one must liberally use all 3 vision modes depending on what the circumstance requires. i certainly can appreciate why this necessity would be annoying to some players (it does annoy me on occasion), but overall i have concluded that because this system forces you to diversify your gameplay, i rather enjoy having it there as is

4. yes it does, you personally just do not see & appreciate the likeness, as myself and others do https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif


5. ouch that hurts. BaK is crying now, you have hurt his feelings https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

BaK has pioneered the coolest and most functional inventory system i've ever seen.

BaK has pioneered one of the very best skills systems around, use it to develop it.

BaK has pioneered the grid-based battlefield combat system -which is terrific despite some unbalanced spells

BaK has pioneered fairy chests - which is far and away the very best locked treasure chest system EVER implemented into any game, even any any game that has come out up until this day in 2004.


thx for the tailored encounter info, i shall mediate upon that paragraph when i am feeling in a studious mood. much obliged

one more thing: i checked the manual and now i know why you were calling Charging Initiative - because the Manual calls Charging Initiative Advantage

however, you seem have forgotten that the Manual also states, and i quote:

Once you've selected your opponent, you must immediately rush forward and attack to maintain an advantage

so you see... although the Stealth skill does indeed play a part in whether or not a charge is successful, it certainly is not the only part. the actual physical act of charging well very important also. unfortunately, the manual does not specify by just how much

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]4. Oh please. AvP's vision modes don't have anything to do with BaK's interface.

4. yes it does, you personally just do not see & appreciate the likeness, as myself and others do

Fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I guess. I tried to convert you by offering some bits of game design theory, but you're a tough cookie, it seems. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


Quote[/b] ]BaK has pioneered the coolest and most functional inventory system i've ever seen.

Dungeon Master (released 1987) is the earliest game that comes to mind that uses a drag & drop inventory, and its item interaction system was more advanced than BaK's (you could toss around items in the game world etc.) Ultima Underworld was released at about the same time and has pseudo-realistic physics.


Quote[/b] ]BaK has pioneered one of the very best skills systems around, use it to develop it.

RuneQuest (a tabletop RPG) was published in 1978 and has a skill-based system (BRP or Basic Role Playing). Not many computer games used (or even currently use) a pure skill-based system, but hybrid systems existed at that time (DM) and it certainly wasn't an original idea.


Quote[/b] ]BaK has pioneered the grid-based battlefield combat system -which is terrific despite some unbalanced spells

The true pioneer is Ultima 3: Exodus, released in 1983, which is by the way considered to be one of the most influential CRPGs in history. Other games refined the battle systems, for example the Gold Box games (Pool of Radiance, 1988) which I mentioned previously.

... winding down, winding down... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif