View Full Version : Creative Assembly morale penalties
i was wondering if your troops suffer a penalty for being outnumbered or a boost if they are in greater numbers. Does morale change if they are on a hill, defending..
This is such a newb question. the funny thing is, I never really knew.. which is pretty bad, considering I've had this game for a really long time
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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu
Units rout because their morale was so low that exceeded the moral critical point.
Now discussing ALL the morale penalties is long...very long...where is Yuuki? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
In SP campaign having a large force against a small force will ultimately result in the automatic routing of the small force many a times.
Don't know about MP since army number is always similar.
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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
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Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
In SP campaign having a large force against a small force will ultimately result in the automatic routing of the small force many a times.
[/QUOTE]
I'd say it's not only the numeral advantage but the overall strength, taking both the number and the quality into account.
For instance, set a custom battle, and give the AI 16 YA, and give your self 16 kensai that are armed to the teeth. More often than not, the AI will auto-rout. And that's 960 vs 16.
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 03-05-2002).]
Irving,
Here is what I find for the multiplayer concerning this:
There is a morale penalty for being in the proximity of enemy units. The effect radiates out from the center of a unit in all directions regardless of facing for a distance of about 1.8 tiles. That's a spacing of 49 men or 3600 of the full 5000 range of an archer. The effect is stronger if you are facing two units rather than one. For instance, an H0 YA will become uncertain when facing another unit at a distance of 1.8 tiles, but, if facing two enemy units, it wavers at the same distance. Neither the honor or type of the enemy unit seems to matter. My results were the same whether facing H0 YA, H2 WM, H4 WM or H2 Kensai. Morale support is provided among friendly units up to this same 1.8 tile distance. I can find no gradient to the effect with distance. It seem to be a step effect. I can move my H0 YA right up to a YA, WM or kensai and it remains uncertain. It only drops to wavering when I move away and expose a flank with incurs an additional flanking morale penalty. I could walk up to and away from 3 enemy kensai with my H0 YA. When I added a WM directly behind the 3 kensai, my H0 YA would rout when I moved away. It was not the rout bug because the YA did rally. When I removed one of the kensai, I could once again walk up to and away from the enemy group. So, it appears that it's the number of enemy units that matters, and not the number of enemy troops. I'm not aware of any effect on morale caused by terrain. Fatigue of very tired or greater does progressively lower morale.
All these test were done on flat ground with the units quite tired. Units at rest all eventually become quite tired. There is no morale penalty incured at this fatigue level.
The single player is different because the ai is evaluating relative unit parameters to decide if it should attack, defend, hide, withdraw or rout, and being attacker or defender makes a difference in what it does as well.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-05-2002).]
But doesnt the depth of a unit effect the morale also?When takin all this into account?
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/wolf11.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub
FasT,
I tested the YA in 10x6 deep and in 60x1 deep formations. I saw no difference when looking at the proximity effect. The unit went to uncertain or wavering at the same distance, but I did see a difference in the flanking morale penalty. The flanking penalty occured with the flanking unit farther away from the center of the 60x1 formation than the 10x6 formation. The flanking unit was actually closer to the edge of the 60x1 fomation than the 10x6 formation when this occured. So, unit formation is a factor, but the difference between 10x6 and 60x1 in regards to flanking wasn't dramatic. These proximity and flanking effects are small in magnitude when you compare them to taking casualties or your taisho running.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
BSM_Skkzarg
03-06-2002, 08:17
A note about the AI and its choice of action. If, at the onset of battle, if decides it has an advantage over you, or sometimes even an equity with you, it will choose an aggressive attack model. Whats amazing is that, this often allows you to defend as the attacker, giving you all the flexibility a defensive action provides. What is even more unreal is that the AI locks in this "aggresive" mode, meaning you could "attack" a province with a defensive minded force, and if the AI has more decent units, it will attack you even though it should defend. Where it is totally flawed is it keeps attacking - even after its army has been devastated. Face 3000 with 1500, kill 2000 and the last 1000 will still attack you - foolish choice indeed. The AI should at least periodically review its stance and chose to be less aggressive at times.
Q!
Skkz
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BSM_Skkzarg
"ARG when I'm Happy, ARG when I'm Sad, ARG when I'm good or bad. ARG!"
"ARG to port! ARG to starboard! Arg from stem to stern! ARG!"
longjohn2
03-07-2002, 05:48
Good detective work on the morale Puzz3D, you seem to have everything about right. In Shogun, morale effects for numbers of enemy are calculated using the number of units, not the number of soldiers. This is because historically the strength of opposing armies was often estimated by counting the number of standards.
There is a small morale boost for being uphill of all nearby enemy, whether attacking or defending.
The unit depth doesn't directly affect morale, but a deeper unit presents less of itself to the enemy. This becomes important once you enter melee, as the morale effects for casualties and fatigue are averaged over the whole unit, not just those fighting. So if only a few men are in combat, they can be taking a licking, but the morale effect on the whole unit is small.
So u get a moral boost for being on a hill with the enemy below,Wow! im learning much in the Org http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Little John and PuZZ thxs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markuk/t.gif/wolf11.gif
Grey Wolves
FastCub
Hat off to Puzz3D and longjohn2.
However, longjohn, the more I see your posts, the more I shudder. Just how many more secrets are you guys hiding from us? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
For instance, is it true that +1 point means 20% more effective? Meaning that +1 weapon will make the unit kill 20% faster in average?
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 03-06-2002).]
Gothmog,
Here is the reference where the 20% per combat point comes from, http://gamespot.com/gamespot/guides/pc/shogun/p10_01.html
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-07-2002).]
Thanks, Puzz3D.
I remember reading this info long ago, though the 20% never registered.
Funny thing is, even though I managed to get so many things wrong (this and that misinformed F1 report on the honor update effect), I didn't complete screw up.
Guess that says a lot about STW/MI. When we play shogun, we do what "feels right", aka, use our common sense. And in that aspect, STW/MI did a wonderful job.
To fill out my previous post on morale I ran my morale flanking test again on LAN since my old post is lost, and I couldn't find my notes. The flanking distance is 1.5 tiles which is 40 men stretched out. I used 10x6 deep formations of YS, and measured center to center. The magnitude of the flanking effect is -2 points. My test scale is in 2 point steps. So, it could be larger than -2 but less than -4.
For the proximity effect, I'm getting a -8 point penaly at a distance of 1.8 tiles which is 48 men stretched out. The magnitude of -8 is much larger than I expected. It helps explain why 2 on 1 rushes in multiplayer are so effective in causing a single army to rout.
There is definitely a hysteresis in the morale system which looks to me like 2 points. If your unit is hit with a morale penaly by a threatening unit and then the threat is removed, your unit seems to fall 2 points short in it's recovery of morale. It seems that you have to provide more than +2 points of support to get it back up. You can remove the supporting units, and the unit holds on to +2 gain if the threating unit is no longer around.
Morale support is provided by friendly units that are behind the unit up to a distance of 1.8 tiles. The magnitude of this support seems to be +2 points per supporting unit, but I'm not sure about this. This works like flanking rather than proximity because supporting units must be facing the unit they are supporting. Facing seems to be defined as plus or minus 45 degrees from straight ahead. The hyseresis causes some problems in making this support measument, and I may have missed something here.
Either the morale penaly due to a nearby unit routing is less than 2 points or hitting the rout command does not trigger a penalty because I didn't observe any effect on morale due to nearby or through routing on a unit that I knew was only 2 points above uncertain status. Even with the taisho routing I didn't observe any effect. What routing does do in the test is instantly remove any morale support or flanking cover the unit was providing to other units probably because it turns to run when it routs. When you play the game, it does feel like routing units penalize other units, but my test doesn't show anything.
The death of taisho test was run in custom battle mode, but I believe it's valid for LAN/online play.
Death of the taisho incurs a -8 morale penalty in all units. This effect seems to be universal with no range limit because he was far away from his units when I ran the test. However, I only ran the test once. After a short period of time, recovery of +2 morale points occurs.
The morale transition points I get are:
impetuous = +18 or above
steady = -6 to +16
uncertain = -12 to -8
wavering = -22 to -14
running = -24 or below
As I recall from previous testing the transistion points are on the even numbers, and not on the odd numbers which I didn't test this time. These transition points seem to be the same for custom and LAN battle, but I only actually verified that uncertain and wavering were the same. These transistion points are not unit dependent.
The taisho unit always has +2 morale added to the basic unit morale, and he radiates a small morale boost of something like +3 to units in close proximity around him. You can deternime the starting morale of any unit with morale = base morale + 2 * honor. For instance, an H4 ND would be morale = 8 + 2 * 4 = 16.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-21-2002).]
what is the morale change for a unit routing through another friendly unit? I heard it was quite bad...
[This message has been edited by grayd0 (edited 03-25-2002).]
At this time, I think it's less than 2 points for a single unit, but I don't really know. The couple of tests I did showed no noticable effect, and at least 2 points was needed for anything to show up in those tests. Also, I tested by giving a rout command, and that may not be the same as routing caused by an enemy unit. There has to be some effect because we all see these chain routs.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
Krasturak
04-02-2002, 12:32
Yes, the routing units do have a negative effect.
Krast has seen this with a rallied unit far from the battle.
Another routing unit comes by later and passes nearby.
When it gets close the rallied unit wavers, sometimes routs again, with no enemy units nearby.
Only observed with very weak units, like 12 gunners left out of 60, or something like that.
Last night ShingenMitch asked me to test a morale effect with him. He theorized that the proximity effect has a maximum value cut-off. The tests we ran indicated that more than 3 enemy units didn't cause any additional penalty. I've done some additional testing on my own, and it confirms what we saw online.
Using YA of various morale levels vs different numbers of kensai in a LAN battle test, I have enough data points to show that, as found in previous tests, being in proximity to one enemy unit causes a -8 morale penalty. A second enemy unit causes an additional -4 point penalty, and a third an additional -2 point penalty. The cut-off is at 3 units with no additional effect when facing as many as 15 kensai. The total possible penalty caused by proximity is thus -14 points. Being flanked does add more penalties on top of the proximity effect.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
BakaGaijin
04-03-2002, 01:23
So, if morale is the only consideration, using more than three units in the front line of a direct assault on any number of enemy units within 1.8 tiles of the "center" of the attacking three units is a waste of manpower? Assuming you can figure out my meaning, of course. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I would like to know if there is a similar effect with supporting units, as well. This could have some interesting revelations for formation-building.
Oh, one more thing: does this happen with flanking, as well? Meaning that, since flanking attacks provide only a -2 morale, flanking with more than one unit at a time will provide no more of a penalty than flanking with one unit?
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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2
[This message has been edited by BakaGaijin (edited 04-02-2002).]
BakaGaijin,
When you think about it, a cut-off of the proximity effect is necessary. Otherwise, two armies would tend to run away from each other when the got close.
I would say you can have too many units in one spot. We all know from playing experience that's is bad to get bunched up. All your men are not engaged, the bunch is easily flanked and now we know a giant bunch doesn't project any more fear than 3 units. You actually loose effectiveness because separately 3 units project -24 morale points. However, when stacked they only project -14 points.
Supporting units provide a much smaller effect of about +2 points, and they may just add up, but I don't know.
The flanking penalty is definitey a one time effect. You are either flanked or you're not. Left and right flanking penalties do add. I don't remember if the rear counts as a third flank.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Krasturak
04-03-2002, 07:18
Very interesting.
Papewaio
04-03-2002, 09:58
Has interesting implications for bridge assaults.
It also explains why enemies tend to rally if not pressed by enough units. So once the enemy runs pursue with at least 3 units, 2 flankers as well if possible.
So to break an enemy as fast as possible, charge with 3 units, flank with 2 others and pour as much firepower into them as possible.
To route the super YA hit two units like this and you could get the nice cascade effect.
Actually do you get the penalty of -14 from facing one unit and two flanking units (plus the two -2)?
If so the ulitmate bridge defence could be 3 nags in a U or H formation at the end of the bridge... let them get off the bridge and stall against the center nag and flank them at the sides. Then pour in arrow fire to cause more morale penalities from rapid attrition. Same would apply to castle defences... let them in a little so you can flank them enough that they get maximum penalties.
Also are the penalities as large when facing missile units?... it would make it very hard to face 3 unit deep missile formations.
BTW has anyone actually assaulted the largest castle in SP?
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Victory First, Battle Last
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
a giant bunch doesn't project any more fear than 3 units. You actually loose effectiveness because separately 3 units project -24 morale points. However, when stacked they only project -14 points.
MizuYuuki ~~~[/QUOTE]
So a line formation, with 1.2 tiles between units, placed about 1.5 to 1.8 tiles away from enemy will induce on each enemy unit facing you the maximum penalty. Then of cos if his army is also lined up, you suffer the same.
But the most efficient method is to have 3 units a the centre encircled by 16 enemy units, and 13 of your units encircle him on the outer perimeter -> each of the enemy units will get max penalty http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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BakaGaijin
04-03-2002, 12:33
But your units would have minimum support. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Puzz: Thanks VERY much for those clarifications.
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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2
Here are some more results on morale from LAN testing:
1) The morale penalty due to a friendly unit routing is -6 points. This penalty extends out to a distance of 1.8 tiles. Friendly units will recover the lost morale once the routing unit is out of range. There is no additional penalty due to routing units passing through a friendly unit.
2) The taisho routing projects the same -6 morale penalty.
3) There is no additional morale penalty due to the taisho leaving the field.
4) Loose formation lowers morale by 2 points.
5) Commanding a unit to rout does not cause a morale penalty to friendly units.
6) Morale loss due to fatigue:
totally exhausted = -8 morale
exhausted = -6 morale
very tired = -2 morale
7) In wet weather, units fatigue at different rates depending on their actual armor level. More armor causes a faster rate of fatigue.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
longjohn2
05-11-2002, 22:52
I think you've drawn the wrong conclusions about the morale penalties for nearby enemies, by concentrating on single unit tests. You're quite right about the -8 for any enemy nearby, but beyond that the penalties depend on the ratio of the number of enemy units nearby, to the number of friendly units.
Puzz3D Your observations about fatigue and routing morale are IIRC spot on.
Thx longjohn. I didn't go much beyond single units facing multiple enemy units except to try and pin down morale support effects. It gets quite complex because friendly units do provide morale support which offsets morale penalties.
One very good question I've been asked which a I cannot really answer is "which morale effects carry over to an ally". I'm pretty sure death of a taisho only affects his own troops, but routing units do seem to affect morale in the ally's units if he's within the range of the effect. Maybe you could comment?
Thx,
MizuYuuki ~~~
longjohn2
05-12-2002, 21:52
Concerning allies, all the morale rules that are to do with units (bonuses for support, penalties for routing) also include allied units.
However, effects that are to do with the Taisho (bonuses for being near, penalties to for being dead) only depend on your own Taisho.
Thanks very much longjohn.
MizuYuuki ~~~
I continue to be amazed with Puzz3D's grasp of the underlying mechanics.
I guess I've just read enough accounts of actual historical battles that "why" my army is routing has for quite a while not really been a mystery.. it most often seems to make sense based on history, and in all cases I seem to be able to predict if not prevent it. But it's very interesting to hear specifics on the underlying mechanics.
Matt
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Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000398.html).
Dionysus9
05-13-2002, 11:33
Now THAT is the type of really useful information that helps me truly understand what the heck is going on out there!
Thanks all!
Dionysus9
05-13-2002, 12:02
Something LongJohn2 said just hit me, and that is that fatigue and casualties are averaged over the entire unit. Thus, unit size has its most important applications to morale when Casualties are being considered. This result makes imminent sense and is quite intuitive-- a 120 man unit can take a 6 man loss a lot easier than a 20 man unit--("woah, there were 2 guys standing next to me a second ago!")
I mention it here only because this conversation has not focused on this factor and I think it is very important. Note to self--although 6 enemy men will put morale pressure on your troops, if you can manage to kill a few of them they will easily route (and then be a liability to enemy morale).
This has some big implications for how I play, especially which unit I attack-- normally I will attack the unit i percieve to be strongest (high honor, most men) because i expect them to damage me the most and would like to reduce their number...the gnats, I can afford to ignore.
However, now I will consider and test out attacking the weakest unit as it is 1) putting morale pressure on my troops, 2) supporting enemy morale in the area, 3) easier to route, 4) will strip enemy units in the area of morale (enemy will lose support bonus, plus hit with -6 route penalty, plus the morale pressure on my troops is decreased).
The one thing that doesnt make sense is why 3 units of 6 totally exhausted men each will give my 60 fresh warrior monks a -14 penalty. If this is the case, it needs to be reviewed for MTW...perhaps averaging the penalty over all men in a unit (as casualties/fatigue are handled) would produce more realistic results.
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 05-13-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 05-13-2002).]
Dionysus9,
The morale hit due to casualties does become increasingly important as you loose men, but up to now I haven't come up with a way to quantify it. It's also a dymanic effect with a recovery time which means the rate of casualties is important. As I type this, I just thought of a way to quantify it, but it will be very time consuming to run the necessary tests. Because morale hits due to casualties and fatigue are dynamic you really have to develop a feel for these effects in battle.
Longjohn did an outstanding job designing this morale system and choosing the magnitude of various effects. Your example of 3 depleted units facing a full strength WM unit is a good one. Those 3 units cannot rout the WM just by their presence nor can the WM similarly rout the 3 units because the magnitude of the morale effects has been chosen so that can't happen. The units will have to engage to resolve matters, and it's pretty clear that the 3 depleted units won't win. Now suppose the 3 units were fresh WM with 20 men each. If they engage one by one, they will loose. However, if they engage simultaneously from 3 sides they will win. I don't think a balance like that just happens. It must have been designed to work like that.
Here I will inject an opinion about guns. The number of kills per 20 gun volley is so high that it breaks the morale system in the sense that charging units are being routed before they can engage far too often. Longjohn was not with CA/DT when the guns were changed and made so very much more powerful in WE/MI. The v1.02 beta team weakened guns, but we didn't fully understand the morale system at that time, and were not able to find the optimum parameters for guns. It remains a problem and a subject of disagreement among the beta testers.
Longjohn's first post in this thread does answer your criticism of counting units without considering the number of soldiers for morale purposes. It's was the visible standards that were important to morale. If you imagine yourself down on the battlefield with limited visibility rather than above the action with the view we have when playing, it seems intuitive to me that you would use the number of standards you can see to estimate what you were up against.
With regard to tactics, I believe the better idea is always to hit the enemy's weak point rather than their strong point. It's true that, if you can break the strong point, the rest will fall, but it's also the most difficult thing to achieve. If you have the opportunity to attack weakened stragglers, you should certainly do so before they get back to the main body.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Dionysus9
05-14-2002, 01:09
Thank you for the reply Yuuki, and might I add that your treatement of this issue has been exemplary.
I would also like to praise Longjohn2 for his incredible work on the morale system. As Khan says, I instinctively "know" when my troops should route, and invariable they do route, at exactly the right time. . And further, he takes the time to communicate with us players -- something that EA doesn't seem to care about. Kudos to longjohn!
However, I do think that the "visible standards" justification for "full" morale penalties of depleted units is a bit of a shortcut:
The "area of effect" of a morale penalty, as you have explained, is approx 1.8 tiles (or about 48 men stretched out). A unit (absent sight-restrictive helmets) should be able to see to the end of the 48 man line, without any real problem. Thus, it makes sense that when an enemy unit enters the line of sight of my unit, my unit should consider the enemy in its morale check.
However, at that range (1.8 tiles), my men should also be able to see the number of men in the enemy unit and I would expect their morale to be proportional to the enemy threat that they percieve (i.e. see, perhaps hear a charge behind them). So I think the fact that eighteen enemy men (H6) are each holding a standard (within the line of sight of my troops) should not effect my troops in the same way as 180 men holding eighteen standards. Frankly, at the VERY close range of 1.8 tiles the number of standards should have very little to do with the morale penalty on my 60 monks.
Granted, this distinction is mostly academic--as we all agree the system works GREAT in game, and as you note, three 6-man units will not alone cause a full unit of monks to route. But I think that there is room for improvement on this point (# standards vs, # of men) to wit-- an example:
Add to our scenario a unit of enemy archers at the limit of their range (4999) from my 60 monks. Between my monks and the archers are three units of H6 monks, down to only 6 men per unit, VERY close to my monks, say .3 tiles. The archers are far enough away (3600+) that they aren't supporting the morale of the enemy, nor are they penalizing my 60 monks. What they ARE doing is raining death at me. So now, as I am approaching the first enemy unit, my Monks are taking some casualties, perhaps (add another archer unit back there) they are taking enough casualties that they will fail their morale check-- however it is CLEAR [to us AND them] that they will win the fight with the 3 enemy units if the dont run. After taking out the enemy infantry, they can safely jog away from the archers range, having lost only a few men to the infantry, and perhaps a few more to the archers. Maybe they would be at 45 men after the fight. That should be acceptable to my monks, afterall they killed 18 enemy.
Now, same scenario facing 3 full enemy units of monks-- My guys dont have a bloody chance in hell and they would know it!
So why should they suffer from the same morale penalty (based on # of standards) in each scenario? It just doesn't make sense.
That being said, I cant say I've ever seen this scenario play out on the field...it is probably an academic point. In fact, the problem really only applies if we restrict the movement of the archers (they cant get within penalty range of my monks--bridge? cliff?) and there are no other units on the battlefield (end of the game). Needless to say, I would be pretty frustrated to see 60 monks run from 18--regardless of some distant imobile archers!
Lol.
Anway, great conversation and analysis all--esp. Yuuki and Longjohn.
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 05-13-2002).]
Krasturak
05-14-2002, 02:35
Gah!
Krast also offers his thnks to Longjohn2 and Puzz3d for their informative and useful posts.
This is the best stuff at the Sword Dojo, when these guys get talking.
More please!
Gah!
This info is in another thread, but I want to put it here for completeness since this is the main thread for morale penalties.
A check of the magnitude of the morale effect from guns with a tricky test where you set the power to zero so there are no casualties inflicted shows that the negative morale effect is -6 points in a unit that is being targetted by musk or arq. I also measured a -2 point effect for a unit being targetted by archers. The -4 Longjohn remembers for guns may be the additional penalty they have over archers. One other thing I did was target a unit with 2 archers and I saw no increase in the morale penalty over being targetted by a single archer.
Also, Longjohn commented on morale penalties due to casualties in that same thread:
"Casualties affect morale in three ways. Firstly, the overall casualties affect morale. Secondly, suffering a number of casualties in any one animation frame, such as from a gun volley, inflicts a big but temporary penalty. Thirdly, the number of casualties suffered and caused over the last few seconds is a major component in deciding who is winning or losing a melee. Winning and losing in melee causes bonuses and penalties."
MizuYuuki ~~~
Does winning a mele increase the moral of a unit
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"A warriors death in battle should be bloody"
w00tage,
When a unit wins a melee and routs or kills all the enemy men, its morale jumps up because the -8 morale penaly that the enemy unit was projecting is removed. If there are other enemy units in proximity, it won't recoved a full 8 points. Also, Longjohn states that when a unit is reported as "winning" as opposed to "loosing" while fighting there is a morale bonus. I don't know the magnitude of that bonus.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Dionysus9
07-12-2002, 13:47
Bump for Lamorak.
The AI can "see" your weapon and armor upgrades and knows its chance of success against your "new pumped up troops" somehow (koku value is possible) and realizes that it is probably going to lose, so it bails.
Try it.
Ironingboard, hard difficulty, fine day, you attack w/ H0Nodachi, enemy defend w/ H0Ashi, double click attack at the start.
The Ashi stay and fight a little while at least.
Now give the Nadchi full upgrades and repeat. The Ashi now run before combat can occur.
So the AI knows what you've got, beyond counting your honor flags. Wouldn't you like to be able to see HIS weapon/armor upgrades?
Well, sometimes you can w/ the right spy network in single player...cant remember what units it takes...
So, the A.I. is definately at work here doing some spying of its own.
Commanding a unit to rout does not cause a morale penalty to friendly units....Does this also apply if u rout ur GEN?
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