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Tamur
09-30-2004, 09:00
(09 May 2016 edit) Tamur's hosting site is now offline but he's graciously allowed us to host it here at the Org. --therother

(28 May 2008 edit) This guide has been downloaded nearly 15.000 times from thirty-two different websites over the past four years. I'm definitely grateful for the interest, but do want to let people know that has not been maintained for nearly three years now. Feel free to download and use with the 1.2 patch, but patches beyond that are not covered here.


(14 July 2005 edit) This diplomacy guide has had its first update in quite a long time. Not much, but the Bribe and Protectorate sections have been rewritten to bring them into sync with 1.2.

This is a PDF. Note that it is over 60 pages long, with a filesize to fit (about 330K).

RTWDiplomacy.pdf (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/RTW/RTWDiplomacy.pdf)

You can download the Adobe Acrobat Reader (6.0+ required) at http://www.adobe.com/reader.

Leet Eriksson
09-30-2004, 09:06
Good job and very informative! I vote this thread for sticky! ~:thumb:

Thoros of Myr
09-30-2004, 10:00
Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. :wink3: It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ceasefires are great for getting huge money, I had Egypt pay me 2100g tribute for 6 turns once on a ceasefire "The mighty Pharaoh has no choice but to accept your insulting offer" ~D

I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack", it mostly seems to piss them off to the point where they won't deal with you even with a good diplomat. You can add it to a ceasefire but it tends to damage relations too much. I like to keep them as friendly as possible while milking as much out of them as I can at the same time. I think it has to be a suprise attack on a city and/or something where you clearly have thier faction leader or hier in a dire situation to get them offer serious money or regions.

:deal2: Some juicy options to try in the Pompey and Caelius Maneuvers...

nice guide!
:rtwyes:

RJV
09-30-2004, 11:21
Document fires up but I then get an empty window....boo hoo

Adrian II
09-30-2004, 11:24
Hopefully someone finds it useful.Very useful indeed. When sticky-time comes around I'm sure this one doesn't only qualify, it's a model for all the other agent stickies. I still don't have the !&$# game, but from what you've written I finally understand what changes have been made from MTW. I'm glad someone finally gave me the whle picture. I gather diplomacy has been vastly improved, really beyond peoples' expectations. The way a diplomat makes a career now (and dies..) plus the number of options for negociations, the way your options are integrated into the strategy map,. the attention to detail such as the return of a Legionary Eagle - it sounds like a real labour of love for which someome at CA has been going out of their way researching, testing and refining. For someone like me who is really put off by the graphics (I still can't help crying for laughter over those phants with funny pants) this is really encouraging, certainly in conjunction with the headhurlers, a detail that could only come up in someone who truly appreciates (as most of us probably do) Monty Python's unforgettable Fish Slapping Dance.

Yeah, for the first time after seeing those goofy screenshots I'm beginning to really look forward to this game.:charge:

SpencerH
09-30-2004, 12:37
I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights. The senate sent me a nasty message to get outa there (which I did). Realizing my mistake, I tried to negotiate access rights but I was no longer trusted.

Basileus
09-30-2004, 12:46
Very nice work man ~;)

zentuit
09-30-2004, 15:26
Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

Tamur
09-30-2004, 15:54
Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. :wink3: It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ha, yes! This diplomacy thing has me hooked... after that question you answered :tomato: I realised I had no idea what I was doing with it, so time to delve and search and experiment.


I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack"...

Right, that one needs to be added, though like Become Protectorate, I don't know enough about it to make any meaningful statements. Have no idea myself when it's a good bargaining tool. More research needed :book:


I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights.

Ah, also need to add items like this. Thanks!


I do wish I could find more information about the conditions under which offers are rejected. Also, factions must have stance values just like the Senate, but how to affect these in ways that you can predict (besides the rather lumpy "If I give them Athens they'll be happier") is still beyond me. I'm sure there's not a 1:1 correspondence between agent actions and faction stance or it wouldn't be real life, but still there have to be some broad guidelines to play by.

Glad it's working for folks. Again, feel free to hit me with info as you run across it.

Encaitar
09-30-2004, 15:56
Something I've found is that the AI actually refuses gifts sometimes. The excuse seems to be something along the lines of either 'we can't match that offer' ( ~:confused: I'm not asking you to) or 'we don't trust gifts from you'.

Tamur
09-30-2004, 15:59
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information.

Hadn't tried this, nice!


Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first).

Yes, most of the time this works. I have had Trade Rights rejected (once only) and needed to go back to Map Info exchange first.

Thanks! I'll add all the new info as soon as I can get a break from this job of mine.

Swoosh So
09-30-2004, 16:43
I love the diplomacy too!! i remember being in a war withthe thracians and the britons, i was pretty annoyed the britons had attacked one of my frontier towns as they had been long term allies, and both our factions were doing well, so i sent off a diplomat to smooth things over... the reply i got was why should we stop fighting while any of you still live!!! hehe was so insulted i created a wall of steel to hold off the thracians and switched my war effort to the britons. I hit them so hard theyre now paying me tribute over many years ;) I sacked their first 2 towns also enslaving the population for their insults!

Ldvs
09-30-2004, 17:07
Very detailed, thanks for the info. It will help shorten the time needed to learn all the tricks of that part of the game.

Tamur
10-01-2004, 08:40
Revision up, with much added information, corrections pointed out here and elsewhere, revised Traits/Retinue info, a Diplomatic Disaster section, and a new Diplomatic Strategy -- the Robin Hood Maneuver :duel:

JR-
10-01-2004, 12:39
very nice, thanks.

therother
10-01-2004, 15:00
Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

Soulflame
10-01-2004, 16:02
Very nice. It's very detailed and very easily readable. I think even my silly cat can work it out ~;).
Personally, (just started) I love the map exchanges. They usually demand around 5000 for the maps if I offer my maps too, but I can grind it down to 1500-3000 usually. I think it also relates to how much information they have.

One important thing that you might want to add to the guide is that if you get the map information, it's permanent. So if another faction takes over a region which you can see on the map, you see that! Even without units present! For free! (So basically you only need to buy map information for all regions just once.)
However, if the faction you bought the map info off expands into other territories, you don't get those for free (need to buy/trade for map info again).

Maybe I'm a bit unclear, so I'll use an example:
If you buy map info from the Gauls, but Germania takesover a region from the Gauls after you bought the map info, you can see the change in owner on the minimap.
However, if the Gauls expand after you bought the map info, you don't see that.

Tamur
10-01-2004, 17:02
Ahha, great, thanks for the clarification. I had wondered especially about the map info remaining as when you bought it, or if it were an ongoing exchange of map info.

I have forgotten twice now to add info about bribing family members... didn't know that about Roman bribery though, that could come in very, very handy, and his without a doubt historically accurate ~:)

I'll add and post up a new version sometime before the day is out.

Murmandamus
10-02-2004, 02:47
Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

Just played around with this and the deal seems to get sweeter as you keep haggling.

I started off trying for a straight exchange of map info with the Numidians, they kept offering me 2000 for my map info but wouldn't give me theirs. So I offered 1000 denari plus my map info for their map info. They counter was to pay me 2000 denari tribute for 3 turns for my map info which I took. Maybe the more you offer for theirs, the more they will give you for yours?

My guy had 5 influence vs the others 1 and it was on normal difficulty.

Sjakihata
10-02-2004, 03:16
Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

when you bribe a normal general (actually captain) it melts away/disbands. when a family member leads the army it becomes yours. nothing to do with which units are in the army AFAIK

Encaitar
10-02-2004, 06:28
I just finished a full campaign as the Julii, and I had a diplomat going around bribing Brutii armies to get them out of the way, and every one of them joined my faction, rather than disbanding. None of them was led by a family member, they varied from 1 unit to about a dozen units, and my diplomat wasn't anything special skill-wise. But when bribing enemy armies earlier in the game (from non-Roman factions), I'd found that they would disband unless led by a family member.

therother
10-02-2004, 15:11
when you bribe a normal general (actually captain) it melts away/disbands. when a family member leads the army it becomes yours. nothing to do with which units are in the army AFAIK
I think you may well be wrong there. My experience, as well as a few others that I've read, would suggest that the culture of the army (whether led by a family member or a captain) is the crucial factor.

On a similar vein, I just made one of my cities rebel, and I moved a diplomat in to bribe them. Although they didn't accept the bribe - he was a pretty pathetic diplomat - the offer was for the peasant/gladiator army to join my faction in its entirety, and not disband. So it would seem you can bribe and keep your own rebels.

On a side note, bribing would seem to be the only way, as Brutii, that I can get my hands on the more advanced Gladiator units, the Samnite and Mirmillo gladiators, available only to train by the Senate/Julii and Scipii factions respectively. Well according to export_descr_buildings.txt anyway, I'm only still on my first game as Brutii, although I've managed to unlock half a dozen playable factions so far.

If you'll suffer me to wander a little OT, I must say I wasn't too keen on this unlocking business, but I'm warming to it. It does make you feel like you've achieved something, plus you get a good introduction to the faction by whipping its armies and taking its cities. Certainly makes the initial selection a little less daunting and a lot more interesting!


But when bribing enemy armies earlier in the game (from non-Roman factions), I'd found that they would disband unless led by a family member.
Do you mean you took command of the whole army led by the family member? That is not my experience. I've always just got the family member, without any of his men, which is a big problem if you've bribed a city with a different culture!

Tamur
10-02-2004, 15:36
More updates up, with a bit of reorganisation, some rewording, about fifteen small and large information additions/corrections, and a new section: How Do I... which is a start on covering the basic questions that are asked about succeeding with diplomats.

Thanks to everyone who's written, PM'd, and posted here with discussions. Lots of great info!

Tamur
10-02-2004, 15:40
Although they didn't accept the bribe - he was a pretty pathetic diplomat - the offer was for the peasant/gladiator army to join my faction in its entirety, and not disband.

Really! That is interesting news. I'll have to give this a go.

And yes, you're correct as far as my experience goes: if you bribe a foreign army led by a family member, you only get the family member. So don't do this when the family member is in a city! You'll have an instant revolt on your hands unless you've got a large army in the area.

Also, it's highly amusing to see a Brit chieftan in your Roman family tree, hehe! How unrespectable woad is...

Sjakihata
10-02-2004, 16:12
after some testing it appears I was wrong, for that I am sorry.

therother is right, if you bribe a foriegn culture's army with no family members they disband, if there is a family member he joins your cause, the army disbands.

also before you bribe, you can read what will actually join you, this includes units, family members, retinues etc

Soulflame
10-02-2004, 17:10
I found that bribing brigand armies is actually pretty nice at start. sure, a commander can earn a star for them, but I'd rather quickly expand my army and go for the real thing - cities. Funny enough, bribing often costs less then making those units yourself (I think its cheaper from a 2 influence diplomat and above, haven't tested it though)

Encaitar
10-03-2004, 04:29
therother: you're mostly right, thanks for picking that up. I say 'mostly', I'll explain:
Usually yes, bribing a family member sees him join my faction and his army disband. But occasionally some or all of the army also joins you instead of disbanding.

I think again this depends on the particular units in the army. Units that are 'compatable' with your faction (might only be ones you can train, might include mercs, might include some other units, I'm not sure) can be brought over it seems.

Ellesthyan
10-03-2004, 13:58
Only units you can build yourself can be bribed to your side. I've found this out playing the Seleucids: I could bribe from a Parthian stack of horse archers, eastern infantry and one kataphraktoi only the katatanks (who eventually can be recruited). When I bribed a Greek stack, I gained a unit of Militia Hoplites, while the regular hoplites disbanded. That combined with the fact that influence is no matter neither is culture (Parthians have a different culture) in bribing, Im quite sure this is right.

Ktonos
10-05-2004, 23:45
Questions:

1. In short campaigns the scenario demands to win 1 or 2 named factions. Whenever I play the named factions are always at war with me nomatter what. Is it default that you'll have to fight them to theend with no possibility to have a nice alliance from the begining etc?

2. Military access with a facrion is in fact a true alliance. But its very hard to achive that. Is it just that you have to offer some large amount of D?

3. My only objection with STW and MTW was the lack of diplomatic options. Every faction would attack at its own descretion nomatter what. The oly diplomatic option was to make alliance or cease fire and those were extremely unstable. Now there are the options, many of them and prety clever too. But the AI gives me the impression of the previous TWs. "I attack you because I want too nomatter if you are an ally or if you can smash me in 2 years.

Some feedback please? I have just played 2 campaigns and this is my first impression. Anyone with more game hours experienced smthng differend?

therother
10-05-2004, 23:46
If you plan a new draft, I think you could add in a bit about management of your diplomatic retinue. For instance, having ancillary characters spread across a number of diplomats is generally not such a good idea. IMO it's better to concentrate them. For instance, combining a Rhetorician (+2), a foreign dignitary/hostage (+1), and a linguist/translator (+2), can turn even the most ordinary diplomat in one whose "counsel is listened to with respect". And if you have diplomat who was born with the Diplomatic Genius trait, he speaks with the "force of law for many people". And this is before he get any merited traits!

The better you can make the new diplomat, I believe the greater the chance he has of developing to Expert Diplomat (+5) and I suppose even the double edged Foreign Tastes line.

(The "/" is there because I believe these characters are mutually exclusive, which makes sense I suppose.)

It also makes sense to transfer ancillary characters from aged diplomats who are about to die to younger diplomats. This should give you an elite cadre of highly skilled, forceful, virtually impossible to assassinate, diplomats who can negotiate just about anything from your allies and enemies alike!

Also, in Appendix A, you’ve missed a number of the possible retinue members and traits. These are contained in the export_descr_ancillaries.txt and export_descr_character_traits.txt respectively in the home/data directory. It's usually best to search for negotiation to find the entries.

Anyway, FYI, here's a list of the all the diplomat affecting traits/characters that I found:

Characters:

Foreign hostage, (+1) excludes Foreign Dignitary
Foreign dignitary (+1) excludes Foreign Hostage
Linguist (+2) excludes Translator
Rhetorician (+2) excluded Culture: Barbarian
Translator (+2) excludes Linguist


Poor barbarians, seems they can't get their brains around Greek!

Traits:

The Natural ability line:

Diplomatic Talent (+1)
Natural Born Diplomat (+2)
Diplomatic Genius (+3)

I don't think they can be improved. It's, well, what they are born with!

The Good Diplomat line:

Tactful (+1) Threshold 1
Courteous (+2) Threshold 2
Diplomatic (+3) Threshold 4
Polished Diplomat (+4) Threshold 8
Expert Diplomat (+5) Threshold 16

The bad diplomat range:

Tactless (-1) Threshold 2
Discourteous (-2) Threshold 4
Undiplomatic (-3) Threshold 8

The Foreign Tastes line, which seems to only affect Romans:

Foreign Interests +1 negotiation, -5 popular standing, Threshold 3
Dresses Like A Foreigner +2 negotiation, -10 popular standing, Threshold 4
Vulgar Foreign Tastes +3 negotiation, -15 popular standing, Threshold 5
Awful Foreign Affectation +4 negotiation, -20 popular standing, Threshold 8

I think that’s them all. I wrote a short Perl script to extract them, but it I may have made a mistake. It's a while since I've written one! I suppose "threshold" just means the net success of his missions, i.e. 8 successful missions, without a disaster of some sort, will get you the Polished Diplomat, but that’s just speculation. I've never got a bad trait for my diplomats, but I've seen the AI with one. How he got it, I can't say.

About the bribing system, I think that Ellesthyan is right in the main. Still not sure about specialist units (such as the various Gladiators or the Germanic Screeching women) or indeed mercenaries. My guess would be no for the first and probably for the second.

Praylak
10-06-2004, 00:42
Some feedback please? I have just played 2 campaigns and this is my first impression. Anyone with more game hours experienced smthng differend?

It feels the same way for me. I do enjoy the extras involved in diplomacy but it feels really hollow at times. Let me share a short example..

I'm playing Pontus, and I am retaliating against Greek aggression. After destroying their mighty army, I walk my best army into Phrygia with a 4 influence diplomat. Their city of Pergamum has three units in it and has had revolts recently. I send in the diplomat and ask for the lowest amount of 100 D tribute for 10 years in exchange for a ceasefire. They say no, so I ask again this time I ask only 5 turns 100d each, for a ceasefire and traderights or we attack. No dice. So I then proceeded to blockade all trade to the city, port and road. Camped there for like 10 turns causing bad devastaion. No rescue armies came, and I didn't expect any as five other nations where at war with them as well. I tryed many offer combinations, and nothing ever doned on them. So I sieged the city for 7 turns and then took it.

Pride is one thing, but I think I was giving a pretty reasonable offer. It just felt hollow, like no AI there at all, just a "no" script. What did I do wrong?

Ktonos
10-06-2004, 01:18
I am afraid that all those diplomacy features are there just for the Roman campaign. For the rest factions the diplomacy stayed the same as STW and MTW. I would n't be frustrated if It wasn't something relativly easy to make. Maybe in the patch, but then again maybe not...

Tamur
10-06-2004, 04:35
Finally back, I'll see if I can add anything helpful here...


1. In short campaigns the scenario demands to win 1 or 2 named factions. Whenever I play the named factions are always at war with me nomatter what. Is it default that you'll have to fight them to theend with no possibility to have a nice alliance from the begining etc?

Good question... my guess is that diplomacy is rigged -- the faction stance rating between you and faction X that you're supposed to exterminate/outlast is SO bad that no amount of negotiation will heal the rift. That's just a guess though.


2. Military access with a facrion is in fact a true alliance. But its very hard to achive that. Is it just that you have to offer some large amount of D?

Yes, a large sum of denarii will get you military access almost every time. Sometimes this can indeed be a LARGE sum, like 30.000 d in single payment, if the faction is strong. Gifting regions seems to be worthless when it comes to gaining military access.


3. My only objection with STW and MTW was the lack of diplomatic options. Every faction would attack at its own descretion nomatter what. The oly diplomatic option was to make alliance or cease fire and those were extremely unstable. Now there are the options, many of them and prety clever too. But the AI gives me the impression of the previous TWs. "I attack you because I want too nomatter if you are an ally or if you can smash me in 2 years.

Hmmm... I'm in the late midgame of a Brutii campaign right now and have had a solid alliance with the Britani, the Dacians, and the Germans going for almost thirty years. In another (short) campaign as the Macedonians, I have Military Access alliances with the Scythians, the Dacians, and an alliance with the Brutii, that's been going for twelve years and through which I've been able to ask for assistance (and got assistance) against the Greek Cities.

If you're playing a Roman faction, then you absolutely have to get as far away from Rome as possible to negotiate properly. Otherwise the other factions will attack the factions you're making agreements with. Once that happens, every other faction in the game will call you a liar for years, and refuse to negotiate with you.

Try either getting a "wall" of provinces between your allies and the other Roman factions, or just play a non-Roman faction with a decent economy, and you should find that it's a very robust and enjoyable part of the game.

Tamur
10-06-2004, 04:42
...They say no, so I ask again this time I ask only 5 turns 100d each, for a ceasefire and traderights or we attack. No dice. ... Pride is one thing, but I think I was giving a pretty reasonable offer. It just felt hollow, like no AI there at all, just a "no" script. What did I do wrong?

I've had experiences like that as well -- in fact, right now the Greek Cities are refusing any and all offers, even though I've been offering them Protectorate status and Ceasefires for several turns now. I've got them down to a single city (Mazaka, not exactly a stronghold) and still they refuse. Also, the Scythians refuse to give me military access even though I've offered them 20.000 denarii for it.

I would very much like to know the mechanics better --- why do some of these factions refuse right until the bitter end? I don't know, would love to learn though.

And therother, THANKS! That's a great list, I'll be adding it shortly here, and will definitely work in your suggestions for a retinue discussion. I dug around as much as I could in the data files, but don't have the technical knowledge to do very well at it.

Saracen
10-06-2004, 15:45
Of what use is military access? Units seem to move around the map without restriction. I have marched right by armies of neutral countries to get to another and nothing happened????

therother
10-06-2004, 16:02
Of what use is military access? Units seem to move around the map without restriction. I have marched right by armies of neutral countries to get to another and nothing happened????AFAIK, there are two main consequences of not having military access:

If you are Roman, the Senate will be upset with you. This can be a real problem if relations between you and the Senate are poor, as they may threaten to fine you.
The infringed neutral (or even allied) country will be mightily annoyed at you, and will be less likely to respond positively to your diplomatic approaches, as well as possibly retaliating by moving an army into your territory. Having a couple of huge neutral armies from nations that are annoyed with you sitting just outside one of your cities is usually not a good thing!

Military Access is what really cements an alliance into a true friendship rather than just a piece of paper. It means that the faction trusts you to march all over their territory. I would assume that it make them much less likely to break the alliance, giving you a greater measure of security on one of your borders.

Tamur
10-06-2004, 16:17
An 'Alliance'-only alliance is like a MTW/STW alliance. Factions can (and often do) break them if they see an opportunity to strike.

Military Access makes the alliance a solid, difficult-to-break thing. Only if you make a major diplomatic blunder (like clicking to support a faction who are attacking your ally, or offer to your ally to cancel trade rights) will the alliance be broken. I've had simple on-paper alliances broken in less than two turns, while I have yet to have a Military Access-type alliance broken (in over fourty years of game time).

Tamur
10-06-2004, 16:57
New version up, with therother's Trait/Retinue info, discussion of Retinue Management, four small additions to good old Appendix B (Offers & Demands).

therother
10-06-2004, 17:01
I was a big fan using spies in MTW to soften up the enemy, and to cherry pick rich trading provinces without risking war - well, except with the rebels! I've been developing analogous backstabbing strategies in RTW, and I think that I've found one hopeful that's ready to go wild. I'm not sure this exactly counts as diplomacy, it's more like a subterfuge strategy, but I'll submit it anyway.

What you want to do is make one of neighbour's settlements revolt, putting it in the hands of the rebels. You then move in and take the settlement for yourself: it shouldn't be that well guarded by the revolting peasants. Now, if all you’re interested in is a land grab, you just keep the settlement. But you can now use this settlement as leverage with the faction from whom you've pilfered the province, or indeed with a one of their rivals with whom you wish to improve relations. This is where the extra layers of diplomacy RTW allows really come into play!

Anyway, you'll need a siege army, a few spies, an assassin or two, and, of course, a diplomat. The quality and number of spies, diplomats and assassins, as well as of the army, will depend on the size and agent defence of the target settlement.

Move your spies into the target settlement. If the chances of infiltration are low, get your assassin(s) to kill any enemy spies stationed in the settlement. This should allow easier infiltration. Once your spies are in place, check the public order percentage. Hopefully it is now well below 100%: the lower the better. If it's not low enough to set off a revolt (below 50% is usually when things get very hairy), get your assassins to fulfil their other role by sabotaging public order building to really turn up the heat. Temples, law institutions, and so on, are the key targets.

Meanwhile have your diplomat station himself near either the faction that the target settlement belongs to, or the rival faction you wish to help/curry favour with. Once you've secured the settlement, you can now offer it to the faction in exchange for various treaties, from a ceasefire, all the way up to protectorate, although I've never managed, much to my chagrin, to get anyone to accept becoming my protectorate. Or you could just ask for cash, or even give it as a gift if relations between your factions aren't too hot.

Not comes the even more devious part. Once you give back the province, you can just repeat the process, only it's easier this time, especially if you've not given it back to the former owners, as they won't be able to garrison it for at least a turn or two, all the whilst your spies are still causing trouble. So it will likely revolt again pretty soon! And you can repeat this, perhaps alternating the faction to give it to. You may want to have another diplomat on hand to bribe the relief force coming to take over the city if needs be, as you won’t want to spoil relations by attacking it.

The most success I've had with this tactic is going from a Senate inspired - but thoroughly unwanted (for my part at least) - conflict with the Egyptians, to an Alliance with the Egyptians. I also managed to get Military Access at what I considered a bargain price from the Armenians. Previously they would even entertain the idea! This was all over Tarsus. The fact that the ceasefire that was forced on the other Roman factions by my Alliance lasted only 3 turns is besides the point; it not my fault they declared war on the Egyptians again, and I was still in the binding Roman alliance, so that automatically broke the Alliance. But at least we were no longer in a war with each other, and relations had improved markedly. They still haven't resumed hostilities a dozen turns later, whereas our previous ceasefire lasted only a couple of turns.

Tricky Lady
10-08-2004, 13:45
Hi Tamur,
Perhaps it's just me, my PC or my Acrobat 5.0, but I can't open your document. It says just "this document is damaged and can't be opened."

It worked fine when i opened & read your file when you just posted it.
:huh:

Tamur
10-08-2004, 17:23
Ah yes, sorry I should have noted: you need Acrobat Reader 6.0 to see the document. It's a free download, that's the good thing. The bad thing is that its smallest version is near 9 MB, large is 22 MB. If you're on dial-up, I apologise!

Colovion
10-08-2004, 19:33
Thanks Tamur - without this guide I never would have turned my war with Thrace into Protectorate status. :cheers: Now I'm trying to see if I can use Diplomacy to build the Selucids back from the single province they are now in.

Tamur
10-08-2004, 23:14
Yippee... glad to hear of your success Colovion! Protectorates are the peak of diplomacy, well done.


There is a new version of the guide up.

-- added new appendix (Diplomatic Phraseology). It's raw data, and you've seen many of them before, but this list is an eye-opener in a few places.

-- added two new strategies

-- added many corrections and additions to Bribes, Responding to Proposals, Traits & Retinue Members

-- added short section on Interpreting Answers

Bob the Insane
10-11-2004, 15:50
Great guide....

Question: What is the difference between offering a gift and making an offer to see what the other faction will give you?? I mean a nice little early money boost as the Romans is wait for the senate to tell you to take someones settlement and then make a diplomatic offering to attack that same faction, they will usually give you a few hundred denarii.. You can also wait until all Roman factions are at war with a faction and then make the same offer to them all. But this is always a "what will you give me to do this" thing and not a "gift" thing....

Page 12, Mechanics of bribed or adopted characters are who they are assigned to. To me it appears this is always the nearest family member.

Finally, asking for something simple like Map Info, often if you simply make the demand and leave the price open the other faction will say, never!!! But if you stick an offer of a few denarii in there they might start negotiating... Whats up with that????

Bhruic
10-11-2004, 16:10
One trick that I've used (and had used against me) is "Forced War". Basically, if you are allied with someone, and you have a unit next to someone your ally is at war with, when your ally attacks that unit, you'll get dragged into combat as well. And you'll automatically go to war with that unit. Of course, that works for you as well, if you see your ally is sitting next to someone you are at war with, but they aren't, it's a great way to make sure they are. And because you would both now be at war with that faction, it helps cement your alliance.

I find this works best on the water, as ships seem to congregate. Playing as the Carthagians and allied with the Numidians, they dragged me into a war with Spain. So I returned the favour, and dragged them into a war with Gaul. We've been allies now for close to 50 years, and considering how often I hear that it's impossible to keep an alliance with the Numidians, I consider that a pretty good feat.

(I posted this here as it's a tangible benefit/penalty from alliances, in case people were wondering what the point of them might be)

Bh

Tamur
10-11-2004, 19:55
What is the difference between offering a gift and making an offer to see what the other faction will give you??

When you have crafted a proposal, you have three buttons that either light up or not, depending on what you're proposing. If you have the option to give something as a gift, then you aren't expecting anything back.

And you shouldn't, either, when it comes to cash. So far in my tests, giving a gift has helped once -- in dropped the price of getting an alliance with the Gauls -- as the Carthaginians --from 25.000d to 22.000d. And the gift that led to that was 8000d!

One very useful thing about gifting is that you can "gift" an attack on an ally's faction when they're being beligerent and saying, "We cannot trust you, and refuse to accept your attack on our foes." If you Offer an Attack Faction on someone they're at war with, and actually gift it rather than "table" for their consideration, then they will accept it, and you can improve relations with them by fulfulling your promise.

The laboratory is bubbling re: gifts, hopefully there will be a few more conclusions soon... :glasses2:

therother
10-12-2004, 02:45
Another of my mixture models:

You can cause trouble for your Rome allies by declaring war on factions that are of little threat to you, but are of a threat to the other factions. As an example, say the Julii are deeply committed with the Gauls, but are neutral/allied with the other barbarian factions. You can use your absolutely binding Alliance with the other Roman factions to get them to declare war on all of these factions, causing added problems for them.

This is worthwhile as the Roman factions will eventually be your strongest opponents, and having them weaker than you is a very good thing indeed. Of course there are a number of risks to this strategy, not least that they might actually beat your "ally", and start to threaten you, or that it damages your standing permanently with the nations you attack, the other nations, and perhaps most significantly with the Senate: they can do some nasty things to you if annoy them enough (fines, suicides of family members, declaring you an outlaw).

PS I have Acrobat (no Reader) 5 on my machine, and it reads the file fine.

sapi
10-13-2004, 09:25
Keep it up - it's a great guide!

But maybe could you add an 'update' section so you don't have to read through the entire guide to find what's new? :)

Tamur
10-13-2004, 16:27
*cough* Um, good point. Will add that with the next update later this week, thanks for the suggestion!

therother
10-13-2004, 17:45
But maybe could you add an 'update' section so you don't have to read through the entire guide to find what's new? :)I'm sure Tamur can (and will) speak for himself(*), but he's usually pretty good at highlighting the major changes in the guide, and giving us info in this thread. But YMMV.

(*)Edit: And he already had. Hmm, serves me right for not refreshing my browser!

Slaists
10-13-2004, 19:57
first, thanks for the great work tamur. now, a question: i have tried your suggested "spy follows a diplomat" combo and it never works: i cannot ever get a spy follow a diplomat automatically (right clicking/left clicking, nothing). am i doing something wrong?

therother
10-13-2004, 20:17
first, thanks for the great work tamur. now, a question: i have tried your suggested "spy follows a diplomat" combo and it never works: i cannot ever get a spy follow a diplomat automatically (right clicking/left clicking, nothing). am i doing something wrong?Nope, this is an error in the guide. A spy and a diplomat can only travel together with an army. They can also be together in one of your cities or fleets.

Tamur
10-13-2004, 23:29
New version up, with lots changes (including the one in the post just above this one). I did add a Revision History, as well as graphical markers on new/edited information. There's also the new section on the calculation of acceptance/failure, hypothesis only.

I've attempted contacting CA to get good, correct, definite, wonderfully true information for that section but have received no response, so we've got a working hypothesis and lots to test/correct.

Jambo
10-15-2004, 15:30
Don't know about you lot but I find alliances no better than being neutral. In fact sometimes it seems that my allies are more likely to backstab me than my neutral neighbours!? Furthermore, both the military access and the offering/asking to attack a mutual enemy never seem to work or be of any use...!? So what's the point? By the way I play on VH campaign difficulty, which may explain the relative redundancy of any noteworthy diplomacy.

Are there any advantages to being allied other than the fact that they get dragged into a battle against a mutual foe on the off-chance that an army of theirs is within the same battle square...?

Bhruic
10-15-2004, 16:02
Part of the problem, I think, is that people don't understand the concept of "allies" as it relates to R:TW. An ally is basically someone who's interests correspond with yours. For example, if you are at war with Carthage, and they are at war with Carthage, then they will likely not only be receptive to making an alliance, but actually stick by it. However, if they are your neighbours, and you have no common enemies, then there is no reason for them to stick to an alliance with you. In fact, it's likely not in their best interests.

In practical terms this means that going around and trying to make alliances with everyone is just silly. Pick your alliances based on your diplomatic situation. Look for people who are at war with the people you are at war with. Look for people who are allied to people you are allied with. But don't just expect to be able to make an alliance with anyone and have it stand.

Bh

Tamur
10-15-2004, 18:02
What he said (nicely told, Bhruic).

Work to have allies with the same allies/enemies as you. Once you have that, get Military Access treaties. Then don't try reselling map info to them, don't bribe any of their units, expand roads between you and them (if possible), offer to attack their enemies, and ask for their help (even if you have to pay for it). With that sort of a scenario, you can expect your alliances to last 50-150 years.

SigniferOne
10-19-2004, 02:04
Tamur, in your (wonderful) guide, it says that one way of gaining favor with another Roman faction is to complete their Senate objective (such as taking a city) and then offer it to them. Are you saying that there is a way to see the missions Senate assigns to other families?

Tamur
10-19-2004, 03:32
No, unfortunately. That would be a splendid feature, but it's not possible.

However, once you've played all three Roman factions, you can take a very good guess in the early game t what they'll be assigned to do -- i.e., the first city grab on the Julii list will be Segesta, while the Brutii list will be headed by Apollonia, etc.

Without a mission view list, that technique becomes somewhat untrustworthy later in the game --- though if the Julii are still struggling to take and keep Patavium in 200 BC, you can make a fair bet that the Senate are after them about it.

bmolsson
10-19-2004, 12:02
Very interesting guide.... Have so far stayed with brute force though.... *blushing*

Tamur
10-21-2004, 07:20
That's ok molsson... that's why it's Total War! Bludgeon them all, or sweet talk them, it's your pick. Or starve them. Or assassinate them. :devil:

Version 1.13 is up. No major additions, but a lot of small-to-middlin' corrections regarding info which has been in the guide since its inception and has been proven to be mistaken.

Praylak
10-29-2004, 18:11
As I continue to explore and play new factions, once and while I try some experimenting with diplomacy. Most of the time I just figure everyone hates me and wants my lands. But sometimes when I make the effort I do get some positive results. When playing a nation surrounded by others, this is usually when I make an effort at diplomacy. I do know that the AI nations act differently depending on whom you as the human player is controlling. Just seems like the AI will ignore other nations neighboring it and focus only on you. I found it very peculiar how the Gauls, that border with five factions, have only one enemy (me the Germans) for over 55 years. WTF? "Hey Rome, watcha do'in? Sleeping?"

Onto my point. I have found on more occasions then not, if I get trade rights, then sell map info, and on a regular basis (once every 5-10 turns) give a particular faction a couple hundred Denarii as gift, they tend to leave me be. This only seems to work out if I get the diplomacy in action before they declare war on me. Sometimes I see them send a army group snooping around my borders, and I'll give them another gift and the army goes somewhere else. After some time has passed, if I choose to, an alliance request always gets answered.

I've been able to do this several times. So my question is, is this just all coincidental? Is it an illusion of other circumstances that are not readily visible to me at the time in the game? Or is there some sort of script that gauges interactions between factions. Can the AI actually realize that "hey this guy gives me money regularly, so I'll pick on someone else". Seems kinda optimistic when you consider other AI issues I know, but what do you think?

Silver Rusher
10-29-2004, 21:09
Just finished it. Brilliant guide, Tamur and Rother!

I have an idea of a good way of getting protectorates, although seeing as it says that protectorates are pointless, I don't think there is much point in posting it now...

Silver Rusher
10-29-2004, 21:12
A tactic I often use is bribing the Senate with cash gifts to get my standing higher. What I found was this:

At the start of the gift-giving, it actually increases your standing with the senate AND the people.
A bit further in, it increases your standing with the people more and stops helping your senate popularity.
Later, it simply makes no difference.
And if you continue to bribe for a while after that, your standings with the Senate goes down, it hasn't happened with the people yet.

therother
10-30-2004, 05:53
Just finished it. Brilliant guide, Tamur and Rother!I think I should point out that the guide is overwhelmingly Tamur's work; I just did some donkey work and submitted some strategies.

HopAlongBunny
10-30-2004, 07:27
Very nice guide Tamur ~:)

Thank you ~:cheers:

Nestor II
10-30-2004, 14:13
Great guide!!

And now a question: Is there any way to know all of our aggreements with other factions? I can't find anywhere the trade agreements I've made.

Do I just need to write them down or is there an easier method?
(too lazy to write them though...)

Silver Rusher
10-30-2004, 15:43
@Nestor- This doesn't do exactly what you asked, but it's a start. Send your diplomat to a particular faction and look on the left of the diplomacy scroll where you will see the deals you currently have. You probably already know this, but there is no way of finding previous agreements with all factions.

@Everybody else-

OK, I have come up with a diplomatic strategy you might like to add.

'The Hannible Maneuvre'- courtesy of the Silver Rusher

Summary Quote- "I told you so, didn't I?"

Description: In this strategy you will use diplomacy to basically crush most hard-to-beat factions that you find. The idea is to use a rear attack, but a rear attack made much better through diplomacy. You will need two large armies and two diplomats. When you start up a war with the enemy, send the first diplomat to find a faction on the opposite side of your enemy who you can ally with, and make sure you have a high enough NR and FR (explained in chapter 3) to get a military alliance with them. Build up a fleet now large enough to fend off most other fleets and which can hold one of your large armies, in fact the larger of the large armies. Send your first large army with your second diplomat to attack a nearby and fairly weak enemy settlement. Once it is captured, send your diplomat to the next enemy army/settlement/diplomat and ask for a ridiculously large amount of money, with Accept or We Will Attack attached. When they refuse, (which, if you offer the right amount of money will nearly always happen, see Tips) pile your second large army onto the big fleet that you have built and send it to your allies lands. (see tips for more info) The beauty of the 'Accept or We Will Attack' offer is that the enemy really do take it seriously, and prepare for a defence. The enemy should start to bring most of their army down to fight with you, and away from the other side. This is good, because it means that when you attack from the other side, you will meet little to no resistance at all. Bring your army on the other side down towards the nearest enemy's lands and attack. Done successfully, this will cause the enemy trouble and mean that their forces are less concentrated in your side, and they are generally weaker because of the loss of a settlement on the other side. Then it is up to you, you could continue to use this advantage to destroy the enemy, or you could just sell the lands they lost back to them at a very high price.

Tips:
If the faction on the other side who you want to ally with is already allied to your enemy or just doesn't accept the military alliance no matter what you offer them, you might just have to send your army through their lands anyway, despite their objection.
Remember always to stick by your promises, as otherwise it will have a serious effect on your NR. Once you have made the threat of an attack, you must not abandon it otherwise nobody will ever be threatened by you again.
The amount of money you should demand in the attacking threat should be just slightly higher than what they would negotiate. If they do start to negotiate, stop the negotiations as if to show that you are insulted. If the demands are too ridiculous however, the other faction will just ignore you completely.
When you want to send your army off remember, if you have no close sea connection (I mean without having to go from the mediterranean into the baltic, or that kind of thing) then you can go by land, as long as you make sure that either you have permission for you to go through the lands to your allies or the people who own the land pose a very little threat.

Offer/Demand:
For the alliance:
Alliance and Military Access/none (unless it is necessary, then maybe attach an offer of money)

For the threat:
Accept or We Will Attack/Regular Tribute
Accept or We Will Attack/Single Payment
Accept or We Will Attack/Give Region

When to use:
-When you have an enemy a little too powerful to attack directly
-When there is a faction on the other side of your enemy who can access by sea relatively easily
-Optional, but very worthy: When the capital/best city of the enemy is on the other side of their lands, which is why I love using this technique as the Greeks against the Macedonians with Thrace as the other faction involved.

therother
10-30-2004, 17:49
And now a question: Is there any way to know all of our aggreements with other factions? I can't find anywhere the trade agreements I've made.Open up the diplomacy scroll (press D) and put your cursor over the badge of each faction to see the current state of your diplomatic relations.

Nestor
10-30-2004, 18:26
Open up the diplomacy scroll (press D) and put your cursor over the badge of each faction to see the current state of your diplomatic relations.

It's working!

Thanks therother ~:cheers:

Tamur
10-30-2004, 18:27
So my question is, is this just all coincidental? Is it an illusion of other circumstances that are not readily visible to me at the time in the game? Or is there some sort of script that gauges interactions between factions.

No, constant "good" diplomatic interaction with a faction will make things better. You'll get alliances more easily, and they'll last longer. Once you've got an alliance and continue to be kind to your ally, you'll get Military Access treaties with much more ease. Et cetera, etc.


Seems kinda optimistic when you consider other AI issues I know...

I'm inclined not to deride the campaign-level AI. CA programmed a tight-fisted, mistrusting model, true. But it's an accurate way of viewing diplomatic relations at the time. However, it is frustrating if a player expects it all to be easy as walking up to them and saying, "Military Access, please".


I have an idea of a good way of getting protectorates, although seeing as it says that protectorates are pointless, I don't think there is much point in posting it now...

Post away! They'll be patching the game at some point. Protectorates are definitely the ultimate diplomatic prize in the game, so anything that helps players get them is worth knowing. I'm going to leave the note in on the bug, but with that caveat the strategies will become very useful when its patched.

BTW SR, thanks for the stratgies you have posted! I'll get them added once I get back to my office on Monday.

Glad to see it's been helpful. It's getting looong... but then again no one can accuse it of being sketchy ~:)

King Yngvar
10-30-2004, 19:43
The diplomacy in Total War is not of the best though, but who cares. The battlemode has become the most beautiful ever, and the campaign map itself is nice, with terrain affecting the wars in a much greater way than MTW...

Ktonos
11-01-2004, 15:29
Many people care about diplomacy.

Warlock
11-01-2004, 22:07
Also remember that diplomats are useful defensively. Keeping one in each city and one with each army will dramatically increase the cost to bribe (maybe even impossible - I'm yet to lose a protected family member to bribery). Diplomats do gain experience in this mode as well - I have a 8 influence diplomat that has never moved. His governor is up to +500% cost to bribe.

Tamur
11-03-2004, 00:27
...Diplomats do gain experience in this mode as well...

Wow, that is surprising. Will have to play around with this a bit. Do you know if that pair (diplomat/governor) are often the target of bribe attempts? You can see these if, during another faction's turn, you see their diplomat walk up to your city/army and wave their hands like they're making an offer, but you don't see the diplomacy scroll pop up.

Tamur
11-03-2004, 00:40
Version 1.15 is up. Large number of corrections/additions in regards to Gifts, as well as the addition of the Hannibal Maneuver (thanks Silver Rusher!) and a few other small changes.

Warlock
11-03-2004, 02:57
Yes, I'm fairly sure the AI keeps making bribe attempts against him (partly the massive bribe resistance and partly the three enemy diplomats that have hung around for ages without any obvious activity - I haven't been watching closely to see if the animation plays, but think it's there).

I do have a ludicrous treasury, not sure if that has helped (in the 'whatever they offer I can double it' sense).

Silver Rusher
11-03-2004, 07:51
You give unprompted cash gifts (only negative)
You know, I'm not entirely sure this is true. I believe that it is only when you give in too many gifts that this begins to happen. Earlier on in the gift-giving process I think it is actually positive. I'm not sure though.

Praylak
11-03-2004, 18:17
Earlier on in the gift-giving process I think it is actually positive. I'm not sure though.

When is too much, too much, I don't know. But I do know it works for a while.

In my last campaign as Germania, if you played them you know Briton wants to own you. I was able to keep peace for 20 turns between Gaul and Briton. All I did was setup trade rights between both, and every turn alternating between the two gave them 100 denari. In any other campaign, where I would ignore diplomacy for the most part, Briton would always attack with a few turns, and Gaul would follow close behind.

While I gave Briton 100d on turn 1, then I gave Gaul 100d turn 2, Briton turn 3, etc. I believe this gave me the time I needed to scoop up those rebel provinces to the North and East and thats all I wanted was a temporary peace to focus on that. Fortified my position, built some troops and around the 20th turn Briton attacked. 22nd turn, Gaul Declared war on me and formed an alliance with Briton. You can buy peace for a time.

Maltz
11-03-2004, 18:29
I could easily raise my diplomat's influence by a series of failed proposal. Even if starting with 0 influence, I can ask for ceasefire, trade rights, alliance, sell map, or whatever that is refused. Although I don't get the "trait increase" info. box, the diplomat's influence is quickly raised to 3+, even 4.

I am not sure whether I could call this a bug, but it makes sense that everybody learns through failure, too. ~:)

therother
11-09-2004, 03:10
Thought that this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=626490&postcount=9) might be of interest. It is some preliminary research on the effects of agents on bribing.

Delwack
01-13-2005, 02:51
in terms of a window you have for timed things, like, say "accept or we will attack" or "will provide military assistance against", do you have any clue of what kind of window do you have for fulfilling your diplomatic obligation? (Obviously sooner is better, do you have any clue where people begin to not believe you?) And also, for "provide military assissance" does that mean you have to initate an attack, or can you provide assissance if the opposing faction attacks you. Does sieging a city (initating, capturing, or simply maintaining a siege) count?

Also, do you have any clue in how canceling treaties affects your diplomatic relations worldwide? (obviously again it hurts your relations with the faction, but I think there might possibly be some minor world-wide negatives).

Delwack
01-13-2005, 02:53
oh, juts a note (since I can't edit my own thread) when I say capture, I mean through starvation, and not through military action (as that would fulfill your obligation). Also, does the computer appear to measure not only that you provided help, but how much?

Tamur
01-13-2005, 19:18
in terms of a window you have for timed things, like, say "accept or we will attack" or "will provide military assistance against", do you have any clue of what kind of window do you have for fulfilling your diplomatic obligation?
Good question, this is definitely open for research. I know I've gone nine turns (4 1/2 years) and an attack still fulfilled "provide military assistance" agreement. However, I haven't taken it any farther than that to see what the absolute outer limit is.


..for "provide military assissance" does that mean you have to initate an attack, or...
This means you need to participate in a conflict with the faction specified in the proposal. So, if you propose to the Dacians that you'll provide military assistance against the Scythians, then any battle with the Scythians will do - whether you initiate it or not, whether it's a single turn of seige or a pitched battle. You don't need to take a city to fulfill your military assistance obligation.


Also, do you have any clue in how canceling treaties affects your diplomatic relations worldwide?
I don't have data on this, but it seems that there's a "believeability" factor that you maintain with each faction you deal with. And, the game acts like if you break a treaty with one faction, that faction's allies are less likely to make diplomatic deals with you. However, this is another area that needs to be investigated.

The Stranger
01-30-2005, 16:57
i was looking in some maps and noticed that every factions has an reliebility number and an dread number

Tamur
01-30-2005, 18:10
Where did you find this, Emperor?

Droplede
02-27-2005, 01:42
I know I've gone nine turns (4 1/2 years) and an attack still fulfilled "provide military assistance" agreement.

Hmmmm. I wonder whether an attack in the SAME TURN, but after the diplomacy, meets the requirement. I'm starting to think it doesn't -- that only an attack on subsequent turns will meet it.

One of my favorite diplomacy things has been siphoning money off the other Roman factions by offering to attack their enemies in return for cash. I'm religious about following up -- sometimes immediately. But now, suddenly, I've been met with the "we cannot trust that your troops will ever show up" message, and the only reason I can think of is that I attacked on the same turn I made the deal, but not later turns.

Anyone else run into this? Thoughts?

Fisherking
03-04-2005, 22:52
:balloon2: You know, dose anyone have any post patch 1.2 feedback on this?
Now the other factions give you map info with the trade rights and bribes are so expensive that they seem very rare.

I did have one of the Roman factions bribe one of my cities in this campaign but even a few peasants are too expensive for me these days. I think basic bribery costs must be 10x unit value. It certainly has made diplomats of less importance than before IMO. Some of the things they changed were nice but much of it I liked better before. I am very tempted to reinstall the old game at this point, bugs & all….
~:confused:

Malrubius
03-05-2005, 06:12
Hmmmm. I wonder whether an attack in the SAME TURN, but after the diplomacy, meets the requirement. I'm starting to think it doesn't -- that only an attack on subsequent turns will meet it.

One of my favorite diplomacy things has been siphoning money off the other Roman factions by offering to attack their enemies in return for cash. I'm religious about following up -- sometimes immediately. But now, suddenly, I've been met with the "we cannot trust that your troops will ever show up" message, and the only reason I can think of is that I attacked on the same turn I made the deal, but not later turns.

Anyone else run into this? Thoughts?


I'm not sure if it counts to attack one's enemies on the same turn after offering to do this diplomatically, but I've done it several times. The way to check would be to have the diplomat make the deal :deal: , attack the mutual enemy, and then check back with that diplomat. On the diplomacy screen, you'll see "Assistance provided against rebels" (or whoever) until you have fulfilled your obligations. Then that message won't appear on the diplomacy screen.



.

Tamur
03-10-2005, 02:19
hi Fisherking & all,

I'm largely AFK for the first half of this year, unfortunately!, due to a heavy load of thesis work, full-time job, and family. The soonest I can get to a full revision of (or even some basic research for) the diplomacy guide 1.2 will be late spring. I wish I could help more.

Tamur

Droplede
03-12-2005, 16:14
I'm not sure if it counts to attack one's enemies on the same turn after offering to do this diplomatically, but I've done it several times. The way to check would be to have the diplomat make the deal :deal: , attack the mutual enemy, and then check back with that diplomat. On the diplomacy screen, you'll see "Assistance provided against rebels" (or whoever) until you have fulfilled your obligations. Then that message won't appear on the diplomacy screen.
.


Thanks, Mal. I hadn't realized that tag was conditional. That will help test it for sure.

Viriato
04-20-2005, 22:12
hi, excellent guide. I've two questions

1.- I'm playing with the julii. I'm traying to make alliances with the numidians, the thracians and the scythians... (i've already have trade rights and anyone of them are in war with the others roman factions)
The numidians reject my offers (i will continue later), but with the other two I don't have the choice to offer an alliance, because in the diplomatic window I don't have this option (in all cases I'm negotiating with citys and not with foreign diplomats). What's the matter?

2.- The guide tells that you can bribe anyone, but I'm trying to bribe a roman army, guided by a captain, and I don't have the choice to do that in the diplomatic window. I've installed Patch 1.2 (It's that a change of the patch?)

Thanks a lot.

Kagemusha
05-28-2005, 00:18
Great guide ~:cheers:

I personally have two separate diplomacys.First one is for factions near me,with them i use the old "enemy of my enemy must be my friend"diplomacy.
The other thing i do is large scale blackmail.I have lone ships with diplomats aboard.Sailing all around the seas.When i see some faction targeted by multiple enemies,i simply blockade one or more of their ports and demand money for ceacefire.
It has paid of wery well.Its not very honourable,but im playing as roman julii faction and i think it feels to me very "Roman"thing to do. ~D

Tamur
06-30-2005, 18:01
Hi all,

After a long, long time away due to RL, I've finally given up on real life and decided that Total War is much better. I'm starting the LONG overdue process of updating the diplomacy guide. It looks like I have a lot to catch up on!

Thanks to everyone who have contributed to this thread and who have sent emails. I'm setting a soft deadline of three weeks for the update to be completed.

Cheers,
Tamur

Taurus
07-07-2005, 14:27
Very nice guide indeed ~:)
A very good insight into the world of diplomacy :book:

Krauser
07-07-2005, 18:39
Yeah, good info here. I'm going to try more diplomacy once I finish my current campaign.

Tamur
07-14-2005, 19:29
Just put up the initial desperately needed updates to the diplomacy guide.

If you've got the guide already, don't bother looking at the new version quite yet. Only the most basic of rewrites has happened -- bribes and protectorates mostly.

There are some major changes in the works as I catch up on the last six months of board posts. Eventually I'll see them all, but if someone knows of particularly helpful or useful posts on diplomacy written since 1.2 came out, it would be a big help if you could post them up here.

Thanks!

player1
07-14-2005, 19:50
(14 July 2005 edit) This diplomacy guide has had its first update in quite a long time. Not much, but the Bribe and Protectorate sections have been rewritten to bring them into sync with 1.2. I will be continuing to revise, trim and add to the guide on an ongoing basis.

I remain interested in getting feedback on (or feedback INTO, more precisely) the Diplomatic Strategies section. A lot has changed with the 1.2 patch in diplomacy, so this section will need to be trimmed a bit as time progresses. If you have anything to contribute, please do feel free to contact me either via my email which is in the document itself, or via PM here on the boards.

I think that reference to Foreign Tastes diplomat trait need to be removed from the guide, sice that trait can't really be gained in the game (nor popular standing makes sense for a diplomat).

Tamur
07-14-2005, 19:52
Thanks player1... I'd never seen that one show up in any of my games, and had wondered if it were valid. I just yanked this, will put that fix up in the next update.

BTW, just discovered your bugpatch, quality work there!

buckZor
11-10-2005, 18:52
What about 1.3 patch changes? Anyone seen a thread that focuses on Diplomacy changes with 1.3?

Kekvit Irae
11-17-2005, 20:57
Just doing a little house cleaning

Kickius Buttius
11-22-2005, 22:43
My experiences with bribery suggest that when bribing a stack, any family member, as well as any units that you would be able to build at any point in your technology tree, come over to your faction. All other units disband.

If you are playing a roman faction, you can bribe the armies and family members of the other factions before the civil war with no apparent penalty. This action is particularly useful when one of the other factions has a large army about to beseige an enemy city. Simply bribe the army and then besiege the city with what are now "your" forces.

Soulforged
03-13-2006, 08:16
I think that reference to Foreign Tastes diplomat trait need to be removed from the guide, sice that trait can't really be gained in the game (nor popular standing makes sense for a diplomat).
I've read the guide. Pretty useful, thanks Tamur. There's one problem however, when you talk about this trait ("Foreign Tastes") you state the following "...but they appear to be non-existent on the game itself..." that's not exactly true, if what you mean is that no character, wheter it's from your faction or another, can get this trait, certainly none of my diplomats got it, because I'm the worst diplomat ever, but I saw, in "Barbarian Invasion" with Vanilla 1.6 a diplomat from the "Western Empire Rebels" that had this trait. If I can I'll post a pic here.

Diurpaneus
03-13-2006, 10:56
very intresting facts:laugh4:

puklo
12-12-2007, 07:07
Hello there, Darlings:
I played Greek, used to have an alliance with Gaul and Rome, among other factions. Then Rome was defeated by the Britons & Gaul was reduced to only one province (someplace on the shore of the English Channel) while I was busy fighting Carthage and the Ptolemies. Then, when I investigated my DIPLOMACY tab, I found out Gaul was no longer my ally, merely neutral. Maybe I was thinking of something else when the diplomatic notice flashed onscreen. Now I was offering Gaul to be my protectorate or my ally (whichever would sound delicious to AI), but I was repeatedly refused. I had about 3 or 4 different diplomats of mine try this, but the Gauls won't accept my offer. My one diplomat was even slapped the trait TACTLESS for his (her?) efforts. Here comes along the Spanish (Iberians) who are sniffing at the Gauls. They might gobble up the last Gallic town and I don't want to preempt the Spanish move by attacking that last town. What's wrong with diplomacy? Or what diplomatic thing did I do wrong (or did not do)?
Meiaow to y'all.

Paradox
12-12-2007, 18:28
It's actually not that hard to make other factions give up a region, I payed 10000 denarii for Thebes and the Egyptians accepted. Although the AI sometimes turns down big offers that would benefit their forces, I come to think it's usually the "loyal barbarians" who do not accept...

Ozzman1O1
12-16-2007, 17:23
Can you make a list of the best diplomats starting out in the Game?

Ex.Isenbard of the burgundii,Thero of the Numidians

Warmaster Horus
12-16-2007, 18:28
Why? And anyway, the guide is a few years old...

Tamur
05-28-2008, 23:31
This guide should probably be archived on a dusty shelf somewhere, but, inexplicably, it continues to be downloaded about fifteen times a week. I edited the first post to reflect the fact that I haven't maintained it for nearly three years.

So, buyer beware!

Zaleukos
05-30-2008, 15:39
hi, excellent guide. I've two questions

1.- I'm playing with the julii. I'm traying to make alliances with the numidians, the thracians and the scythians... (i've already have trade rights and anyone of them are in war with the others roman factions)
The numidians reject my offers (i will continue later), but with the other two I don't have the choice to offer an alliance, because in the diplomatic window I don't have this option (in all cases I'm negotiating with citys and not with foreign diplomats). What's the matter?

2.- The guide tells that you can bribe anyone, but I'm trying to bribe a roman army, guided by a captain, and I don't have the choice to do that in the diplomatic window. I've installed Patch 1.2 (It's that a change of the patch?)

Thanks a lot.

1. Sometimes you cant offer an alliance to factions allied to those you are at war with (this inconsistent feature is also in Medieval 2). It also seems like alliances with factions that you have wiped out count towards this condition (definitely a bug if true).

2. I dont think you can bribe Romans before the civil war started as you are in a superalliance with the senate.

An interesting observation when buying settlements is that the AI seems to want less for 1+1 settlements than for 2 in one go. As the Brutii I had a treasure of some 80k and decided to buy Nicomedia and Ancyra from Pontus. I offer 60k for the bundle and they suggest that I pay 40k for 8 turns. But when I offer first 20k for Ancyra and then 30k for Nicomedia they accept...

Jamess
02-12-2010, 01:51
Please reupload your guide. The page isn't there any more. Would love to read it.

Conzettia The Vanquisher
05-14-2010, 18:40
i'm having trouble just for them to even accept anything.
whenever i try and offer a ceasefire or even an accept or we will attack, they just do that "bandying empty words is pointless" move.

PISSES ME OFFF!!!! UGH! HELP!:help:

Bellicin
05-31-2010, 12:50
i'm having trouble just for them to even accept anything.
whenever i try and offer a ceasefire or even an accept or we will attack, they just do that "bandying empty words is pointless" move.

PISSES ME OFFF!!!! UGH! HELP!:help:

I'm having the same problem myself, although I personally take it as another incentive to attack and destroy all other factions :skull:
Seriously though, what version are you playing in? It would appear that diplomacy has been tweaked to be much, much harder in later patches (1.3-1.5) with the AI showing little to no interest in deals of any kind. Although I have yet to play a campaign for long in these patches so I'm not sure how the diplomats stats and your own military power affects the outcome of negotiations in the long run...

If you do like to solve things peacefully I recommend version 1.0, from what I remember all armies were possible to bribe (except faction leaders and heirs) and the other factions paid handsomely for everything from map information to alliances. Long campaigns with those possibilities do in fact get rather boring though!

Kind regards

Conzettia The Vanquisher
06-01-2010, 00:32
I play the 1.5 patch and it seems that your statement would make sense. I originally started playing the 1.0 when i was first introduced to RTW but then got the patch. while playing the 1.0 it did seem alot easier for you to negotiate with diplomats, while in 1.5 almost everything you try and negotiate gets declined (except for bribes). the diplomatic influence of your character has some effect, because i have noticed through playing the full campaign that low-land controlling factions will be quick to jump on negotiations, while larger factions think that they are superior for some reason. (which i also give as an incentive to conquer them). but your sheer military power doesn't really have too much effect, atleast not that i have noticed.

Thank you for answering my question Bellicin.

Bellicin
06-02-2010, 08:29
Glad to be of assistance and thanks for your input on the negotiations with other factions of different size! One thing that hit me the other day is that the difficultylevel might affect diplomacy as well, although I have seen no real proof of it. After switching to patch 1.5 I've mostly been playing at the "Very hard" or "Hard" setting on the campaign map, which I suppose could also affect diplomatic negotiations.

Kind regards

cncguides
06-30-2010, 00:55
I see all of these posts about the diplomacy guide but I cannot find the diplomacy guide. Can anyone help??

Cretan
07-08-2010, 20:52
The link is in the OP .. but it does not work: File not found.

Tamur
02-20-2011, 04:26
hi all,

Someone just emailed me today about this, alerting me to the fact that the link was dead. I think it must have been killed off a while back when I was doing some site updates and mistakenly wiped out that entire directory.

The link in the OP on this thread has been restored to its former (in-)glorious state, so anyone interested should be able to find it.

Cheers,
Tamur

Ludens
02-21-2011, 22:26
:bow:

kayapó
02-22-2011, 06:34
Thanks for renewing it Tamur. I did search for this a few days ago and now I can actually read it.

Cheers.

SenniTreborius
05-06-2016, 20:21
OP link is broken again.

therother
05-09-2016, 08:37
Link restored: Tamur sent me the latest copy and I've attached it to the OP.

Dol Guldur
09-13-2016, 10:38
therother, are you still active??? Wow. Good to see :)

Thought this thread might be complemented with a very comprehensive guide that was put together by a FATW fan with aid from a member of the dev team, which focuses on lesser-known features...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?734016-Diplomacy-Guide

therother
09-13-2016, 23:17
Yup, I'm still haunting these hallowed halls, making sure all the lights stay on.

Thanks for the link, looks interesting.

Vincent Butler
09-21-2016, 23:20
I know this thread is old, but I decided to comment for those who aren't still sure about this, or those who don't bother reading the older posts. I have noticed the comments about bribes, and what happens to the armies. The export_descr_unit file tells what units are options for which factions. If the individual unit is listed as belonging to your faction, you can get that unit, even if it is mercenary. Case in point, Macedon and Illyrian Mercenaries. If Illyrian mercs are in an army Macedon bribes, Macedon will get those mercs. This is based on my experience, and my understanding of the export_descr_unit file.
If you can train the unit, you get it as well, such as has been mentioned bribing Militia Hoplites. Also, I believe you can go into custom battle to see what mercs you can give your army, and it will correspond to what you can keep on a bribe. Not 100% sure on that, but about 99.5% sure. I know I did bribe and keep rebel Hastati after the Marius changes.
If somebody knows if I am wrong about something, please correct me, as this is only based on observation and my interpretation of a file.