Odd units

[FwSeal]

Believe it or not, certain daimyo employed slingmen in their armies. The actual purpose of these weapons isn't clear (that is, from a sengoku standpoint) but it has been speculated that they were intended to simply harass enemy troops and horses. The only specific reference I have seen to stonethrowing is that Takeda general Oyamada Bitchu no kami Masatatsu (d.1552) commanded a 'stone-throwing corps'.

The Kakizaki (aka Matsumae) family controlled southern Hokkaido during the sengoku period and employed Ainu (Japan's aboriginal natives) in their army. The ainu used poison-tipped blowguns and it is said that the Matsumae availed themselves of this unsual weapon in their wars to control the southern region of the island. However, no one knows how effective (if at all) these weapons were.

[The Black Ship]

What I always found odd was that crossbows (oyumi) were more popular way before the Sengoku period, being progressively replaced by the bow. It's almost the exact opposite of the European tradition.

[Zen Blade]

Well, this isn't necessarily the correct answer to your question/statement blackship, but crossbows were popular b/c they could penetrate armor where arrows often couldn't. Plus, crossbows had very short range, but a lot of punch.
Bows were much longer range. Thus, from a Japanese perspective (with relatively little armor) use bows at long range... hand to hand fighting at close range with the hand to hand duels/fights being more honorable and more in the nature of a samurai.
-Seal, anyone else have a more accurate idea, guess??

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[FwSeal]

I did read once that just why the crossbow fell out of favor in Japan is something of a mystery. While the early samurai known as Ono Harukaze (ca.800ad) is depicted using a crossbow, a historian writing not long after him lamented that noone even remembered how to use that weapon.
It does seem as if the simplicty of the bow might have held it in good stead here. I'm not an expert on asian weapons per se, but it seems to me that the models employed by the Koreans and Chinese were larger and more complicated then thier European cousins. They did seem to have more range (the Japanese samurai were actually outranged in the Mongol invasions by both the mongol composite bow and Korean crossbow) but a slower rate of fire. The bow was also much more suited to use from horseback, which MIGHT indicate that the use of the horse for military purposes in Japan went hand in hand with the growth of the bow (just a thought).

[Anssi Hakkinen]

FwSeal is likely right, of course, but as an addenum, consider this: Chinese warfare has pretty much always (well, since well before Sun Tzu at least) been "mass" warfare. The primary attribute of nearly all Chinese armies was their size, not the individual skill of the warriors, possibly excepting elite corps. In this type of combat, the crossbow is a useful weapon, because much less training is needed to use it than is the case with the longbow, and there is the possibility of retiring a bit from the main action to reload while other people are shooting (kind of an early and unorganized version of volley firing). In this respect, the crossbow is a bit like the guns of later times. Samurai warfare up to Sengoku was the work of *extreme* professionals, with relatively small armies; the skill and experience of the individuals was more meaningful than numbers. The legendary Chinese Repeating Crossbow might have been a very useful weapon against the hordes of ashigaru of the Sengoku Jidai, but by then guns were starting to become available, so the crossbow kind of missed its "niche" in Japan.

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"The ancient rule declares that letters are the left hand and militarism the right. Neither must be neglected."
- Hôjô Sôun

[Word-san]

Expanding upon FwSeal's comment about the bow being suited to horseback -- it's nearly impossible to reload a crossbow while riding, while one of the central skills of a well-trained samurai was the ability to simultaneously ride and fire a bow. Plus, in the time it takes even standing troops to reload a single-shot crossbow, a good bowman could fire several rounds.

The online Columbia Encylopedia notes:

"By the end of the 13th cent. use of the crossbow had declined. At the battle of Crécy (1346) English longbowmen, firing from fixed positions, proved far more efficient than Genoese crossbowmen fighting for the French."
http://www.bartleby.com/65/bo/bowNarro.html

So by the time the events of Total War occur, the crossbow was already long out of favor in Europe.

A page called Crossbow Archery - Ancient and Modern notes:

"Only the big windlass cocked steel crossbows, a feature of the 15th century onwards, outranged the longbow and their range proved a poor exchange for rate of fire except in siege warfare."
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/qq53/page3.htm

Finally, here's a fun table on crossbow ballistics, including rates of velocity and a bolt's arc over specific distance:
http://www.monsterworks.net/computerstuph/crossbow_example.htm

[Word-san]

Oh, and here's the flatbow ballistic table for comparison.
http://www.monsterworks.net/computerstuph/flatbow_example.htm

[FwSeal]

Thanks for the interesting info, word-san.

It occurs to me that the composition of the Japanese state (in the days before the samurai as we think of them emerged) contributed to the transcendance of the mounted archer. The birth place of the warrior 'class' of Japan is often described as the Kanto. Here, families that settled were for the most part responsible for their own security. Over time, what amounted to three factions appeared: the 'Japanese', those Japanese settlers who, in the eyes of the faraway court, had gone 'native', and the Ainu. Noone is really sure just how much of this fighting even involved the Ainu - they and the 'native' Japanese are often lumped together in the chronicles as 'emishi'. Anyway, the fighting that went on was not unlike that seen in the French and Indian Wars of N. America - a lot of raids, counter-raids, and ambushes. This sort of warfare favored the mobile. In addition, the bow was an important piece of equipment for any settlers and natives in this remote area.

[The Scourge]

In regards to Anssi's post.
The Chinese repeating crossbow ,is a weapon ive read much about.But ive never seen a picture of one ,and and have always been very curious ,in regards to how the thing worked.
Anyone got any answers ,or know of any web sites ,where i can get a little info?

Looks like you might have an idea Word-San.

[This message has been edited by The Scourge (edited 11-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by The Scourge (edited 11-09-2000).]

[solypsist]

hmm..maybe this STW expansion (just a rumor) will give us a few new units to try out.
Or mercenaries, if the Japanese made much use of them.

[Word-san]

I found an *excellent* Webpage with many pictures and detailed explanations of the Chinese repeating crossbow and its ingeniously simple mechanism:
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/cn_arc_indx.htm

It sounds pretty devastating. The page mentions: "The interesting and unique feature of this crossbow is its repeating action, which though so crudely simple acts perfectly and enables the crossbowman to discharge ten arrows in fifteen seconds."

Although, it goes on to say: "The small and light arrow of the comparatively weak Chinese crossbow here described had little penetrative power. For this reason the head of the arrow was sometimes dipped in poison, in order that a slight wound might prove fatal."

But: "By a slight alteration in the construction of the crossbow it was sometimes made to shoot two arrows, instead of one, every time its bow recoiled... By means of this arrangement one hundred men could discharge two thousand arrows in fifteen seconds, or double the number which one hundred men could shoot off in the same time with the ordinary repeating crossbow."

Also, more info, an ancient illustration, and discussion of the "Chu Ko Nu" or "Zhuge Nu" here: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/yn_xbow/zhugehtm.htm

The illustration's Ming Dynasty text reads: "The Zhuge Nu is a handy little weapon that even the Confucian scholar (i.e. a weakling) or palace women can use in self-defence. It fires weakly so you have to tip the darts with poison. Once the darts are tipped with 'tiger-killing poison', you can fire it at a horse or a man and as long as you draw blood, your adversary will die immediately. The draw-back to the weapon is its very limited range."

I found these pages through an amazing resource called the Asian Traditional Archery Research Network Chinese Archive, which is here: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/cn_arc_indx.htm

This is a must-read site for archery fanatics!

You guys think we can successfully lobby EA to make a Chinese warlord version of Total War? How about calling it "Sun Tzu's Art of War: The Game"? It would definitely need to include repeating crossbows and rock-throwers!

By the way, for a great film showing lots of pre-dynastic Chinese battles and town sieges, see "The Emperor and the Assassin."

[Tachikaze]

Thank you for the film tip, Word-san.