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Asturian Knight
11-01-2000, 01:46
Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to find out the actual composition of a samurai army. Troop types, numbers, ratios etc, etc.

I'd like to make my armies as historically accurate as possible. Can anybody point me in the right direction???

Once again thanks in advance.


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Strength and Honor!!

The Black Ship
11-01-2000, 02:40
Well I can tell you that there were as many support troops (servants, grooms, flag bearers, etc...)as combatants.

Perhaps the Matsuura army in Korea can be used as an example for troop distribution ratio. I'm not sure if they were the norm or not, but here goes:

120 mounted samurai, 450 foot samurai, 370 arquebusiers, 110 archers, 150 spearmen, and 120 officers of ashigaru- funny they don't tell the actual number of ashigaru though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

FwSeal
11-01-2000, 02:46
This is actually a tougher one then might be expected. Most of the most comprehensive records come from the late 1580's to 1615 - after the scope of Total War. Also, the composition of a daimyo's army varied from province to province. But, here are a few surviving examples...

The Uesugi army in around 1569 (there is another, very similar registry for 1575), on paper, consisted of about 5,000 spearmen, 600 horsemen, around 350 gunners, and 1,000 others (including bowmen, some 400 standard bearers, pages, ect...). The problem is that the Uesugi army often went to the field with over twice that number. Presumably, the ranks were swollen with peasant spearmen and bowmen. I saw in a Japanese article on the Hojo once that (and I'm calling this from memory) that that family had a ratio of around 10 to 1 spearmen to gunners (this being around 1575), and around 4 to 1 in bowmen to gunners. The Hojo army itself is recorded as fielding anywhere from 12,000 to 40,000 men, depending on the situation. Of course, most of these were spearmen. The Oda army had reasonably few horsemen but quite a few guns. The ratio at Nagashino (a bit of a special case) was 3-1 in spearmen to gunners.
Here is something culled from a few Shimazu mobilization orders regarding the Korean Invasion in 1592 (dated 1591 and probably not extraordinary)...
Of 15,097 men ordered to go, around 8500 were 'combat' troops (the rest being laborers, porters, pages, ect...). Of these:
350 were cavalry.
1,500 were archers.
1,500 men were matchlockmen.
The remainder (around 5,000) were spearmen (of various types).

For me, a 'typical' sengoku army in Total War (of 12 units) might look like this:
1 yari cav
1 bowman
1 arquebus
3 yari samurai (to represent long spears)
6 yari ashigaru

Some daimyo might not have had enough horses to even justify the 1 yari cav unit; the same goes for guns. On the same token, the Takeda might get a heavy cav in lieu of of their 1 yari ashigaru. The Oda would trade in 2 ashigaru for 2 gunners.

FwSeal
11-01-2000, 02:49
Black Ship is quite right - a 1 for 1 ratio of support to combat troops was pretty common (such as that shown in the Shimazu example above). The laborers were lower then ashigaru - and seem to have had the toughest time of things. While an ashigaru might hope for 'promotion' to the samurai class for some great deed, the best a laborer could usually hope for was to get home alive.

Tachikaze
11-01-2000, 07:58
The main things to keep in mind:

The number of ashigaru and gunners increased, relative to the whole force, during the sengoku period. The ratio of archers and samurai decreased.

The compositions of the armies varied a lot, not only by province, but by the experiences and whims of the particular daimyo.

Turnbull has a lot of statistics in his books.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

Obake
11-02-2000, 22:34
Careful Seal-san! Don't forget the humble beginnings of Hideyoshi!

Obake

PS I know this is a bit OT, but the last I remember from the old Dojo was that you were expecing. Do we now have a little Seal-san Samurai running about in the archives?

FwSeal
11-03-2000, 11:02
Okabe, you have a good memory! Thanks for asking - yup, there's a little Seal - our daughter was born on the 3rd of October (7.5lbs). She's great - and a full time job. But there's no doubt - having a child really changes one's outlook on the world. It does make you look at things with a longer view then one might once have had. But, anyway, her name is Skyler - her title is forthcoming. (Skyler Shinano no kami has a nice flow to it... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif )

Shogun So
11-06-2000, 02:04
I remember a movie you may all have seen it where one samurai ruler starts getting guns while the other one keeps it's old ways sounds like the army composition depends on the ruler. As you may guess the army that refused to adopt the new ways perished in an epic and glorious battle to the death actually they were slaughtered but still they were very brave. This is what's great about STW it simulates this well. Sounds interesting though to know what the different samurai armies were made of I'm sure they varied wildly. Very good question!

Anssi Hakkinen
11-06-2000, 05:41
Quote I remember a movie you may all have seen it where one samurai ruler starts getting guns while the other one keeps it's old ways[/QUOTE]I'm probably totally off track, but this description again strangely reminds me of Kagemusha. That movie, unfortunately, can't be taken very seriously in terms of determining the actual military practices of the sengoku jidai...

Interested in re-creating the Battle of Nagashino in the genuine Kurosawa style? Forget about the siege. Also forget about the river for all tactical purposes other than dropping your flags in the water.
Takeda has daimyo (honor 0) + 2 YC and 1 YS of very high honor.
Oda has hordes and hordes upon hordes of Yari Ashigaru and Arquebusiers, so many that it doesn't really matter at all what honor level they are.
Make sure AI controls Oda to get maximum frustration.
And there you have it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"The ancient rule declares that letters are the left hand and militarism the right. Neither must be neglected."
- Hôjô Sôun

katwomansz
11-11-2000, 11:23
Quote Originally posted by Asturian Knight:
I'm trying to find out the actual composition of a samurai army. Troop types, numbers, ratios etc, etc.

I'd like to make my armies as historically accurate as possible. Can anybody point me in the right direction???

[/B][/QUOTE]

For the Definitive answer read any and all books by Steven Turnbull!!! Read the game credits..he was actually a consultant.!

His first book The Book of the Medieval Knight is pretty fun too.