more history - japanese style

[solypsist]

The original thread has really caught my interest, so much that now I go out of my way to bring it up and find out more from people who would know.
It had been mentioned (to make a gross generalization) that a large part of the population of Japan has a hard time accepting a multicultural system. This said, here's a paraphrased example a a Navy vet from WW2 told me at a dinner party:
"It's well known that, as far as their navy goes, they have a history of simply using pre-existing naval terms rather than coming up with their own. Like, a Japanese captain will use the English term "radar" since it's never dawned on them to come up with their own translation for the instrument. While it is common practice to borrow some naval terms and use them across the board, most terms make the change over to the tongue of the country in which they are used. We in America say "rifleman" over the Prussian "arbrustschutzen." The Japanese, wouldn't."
These are his words, so while they seem a little broad for me to take as a serious focus in Japanese culture/language, it makes for a good rundown.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-13-2000).]

[The Black Ship]

Interesting Soly,
The French have almost the exact opposite attitude, insisting on French vernacular for every piece of equipment/instrument, etc... It can be a pain from what my aviation buddies tell me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Tachikaze]

If you start bringing up language, you're in danger of getting a long-winded response from me. I bore a lot of people with my lust of linguistics.

However, I just wanted to add that English-speakers have also adopted sets of foreign words for a new technology or concept.

In automobiles, the French were ahead of everyone else for a while. We adopted "chassis" and "carburetor", and "transmission". In military, we adopted "lieutenant", "corporal", "battalion", and many more. Not to mention, "menu", "entree", "a la carte", etc. and "cinema", "film noire", and "auteur".

In fact, I see a good parallel between the Japanese tendency to adopt English words and phrases (gairaigo) and English-speakers adopting French.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 11-13-2000).]

[The Black Ship]

We Americans take the best, and leave the rest. Now if we could only learn how to spell all these damn foreign words http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

[solypsist]

Yes. I mentioned to someone that the American language has adopted much from foreign languages. The reply, from a guy who teaches Japanese and a guy who teaches Chinese at the school here, is that you'd be hard pressed to find any extant language that did't borrow from others. However, tose languages are malleable enough to coin/invent as many words as have been taken from others. For example, the direct symbol for 'television' translates, in Japanese, as 'electric eye' while computer is 'electric brain'. This is agood demonstration for the problem Asiatic languages have when it comes to innovation.
I'm no linguist, so I'm getting into deep water here...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I was told (well, actually I read it in my comprehensive school geography textbook; sue me) that the Japanese / Chinese preference of "borrowed" terms is due to the millennia-old kanji alphabet they use. To create a new word, one would have to make up a kanji sign for it, which a) requires skill and imagination and b) is impossible to spread around into general use. Hence, it's simply easier to use either the original foreign-language version or make up some euphemism that can be expressed in kanji. Hence, to use your example, when television was introduced in China, they came up with three kanji signs: electricity (or whatever it is), seeing, and machine. Hence, a "television" is an "electric-seeing-machine" in Chinese.

The Japanese are even more prone to just using the foreign-language version, as they have, in addition to kanji, the katakana phonetic alphabet. They just approximate the pronounciation of the foreign word into their own syllables - thus, "ice cream" is "aisukriimu" (hrrh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif ).

------------------
"Carai an Mierendaira!" -- "Glory to the Blue Cross!"

[solypsist]

which is exactly the point i was making in the firstplace!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

i was looking over my first and subsequent posts on this, and i have to clarify that it isnt my intent to place the japanese language-thing as a weakness or singularity, nor is it my intent to try to argue the 'superiority' of other languages, like english for example.
so please dont mistake me for applying specious logic, since my true intent is simply to investigate this further...

as for the japanese using the phonetic alphabet, this has become big problems for foreign advertisers (there was a big fiasco with a diet coke campaign a few years ago in japan and china).

[Tachikaze]

Soly, I like to make my standard Japanese/English=English/French model to counter the notion that Japanese is unique in their borrowing and adopting of foreign vocabulary. You obviously were already aware of that. I wasn't writing to you specifically.

By the way, English common vocabulary is supposedly 70% French, although I haven't counted, myself. Japanese vocabulary is reportedly 20% foreign, mostly English.

By another way, I know the Japanese word for "television" as terebi (a shortening of their interpretation of the English word). What else do they call it?

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 11-14-2000).]

[ShaiHulud]

Maybe that linguist that was here can expand on this, but it seems that the CULTURE language of old has become the TECHNOLOGICAL language.
Where dominant countries generally were copied in language and culture (after all, they must be doing something right, eh?)in days past it seems now that technology leaders are those whose language now intrudes upon other cultures. I recall the French out-lawing the phrase "Le Splashdown".
But don't let me get started on the French....

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Tachikaze]

I agree that technology is pushing the spread of foreign vocabulary into world languages. I see it as an additional, rather than a replacement for the driving force of parallel cultural adoption.

Sticking to Japanese, they have added the technological words "kompyûtâ" (computer), "eribêtâ (elevator)", and "tôsutâ (toaster)", but also "bêsubôru" (baseball), "jazu" (jazz), and "gârufurendo" (girlfriend), which are cultural.

Computers, elevators, and toasters were developed in other countries, and later embraced by Japan. Baseball and jazz were American cultural imports, along with the concept of boyfriends, girlfriends, and dating, which was not part of pre-WW2 Japanese culture.

Similar additions to other languages have occurred worldwide. Like ShaiHulud wrote, the nations that develop new technology or popular culture tend to be the originators of new vocabulary.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[solypsist]

wow. it makes it seem that i could travel to japan and get by pretty good just by mumbling my speech a lot!
great words, and interesting to 'see' them.

[Tachikaze]

Just so it doesn't seem one-sided, English has "hibachi", "karaoke", "judo", "anime", "haiku", "tsunami", "banzai", "kamikaze", "sushi", "sashimi", and "origami".

Indeed, Soly, my understanding of Japanese conversation is not too sharp, but I gratefully hear occasional English to make me feel at home. Sometimes, almost all of the nouns in a given sentence are English-derived.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 11-15-2000).]

[ShaiHulud]

Fascinating stuff, words....I recall reading that you can determine the degree (or length) of separation of a culture from its host culture by the divergence of the language since it's departure. Its damn near a math equation.
More words borrowed from others are..Honcho, Mogul, kowtow, capo.

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Intresting as it is, the "march of technology" doesn't in itself explain the "borrowed words" -phenomenon. There are countless languages that have developed original terms for new inventions introduced to them, without having to resort to using foreign words. They need not be complicated or particularly innovative. The Finnish word for "computer" equals about "knowledge machine", and the word for "toaster" translates directly into "bread frier".

I think Japanese has a more deep-set reason for using these katakana "hybrid words". I find it very hard to believe the Japanese language didn't have words for "girl" and "friend" before WW2: why not translate them, instead of using an English word?

My vague theory on this is the ubiquitous Japanese tendency to absorb new concepts into their culture. A tidal wave of new technology and concepts washed over Japan as the Bamboo Curtain was disassembled in the late 19th century: a similar shockwave was experienced again after the World War with the US occupation and the forcible reform of the culture. This could in fact be generalized: when many new concepts are being introduced at once, the nation has no chance to "process them", and their absorption into the culture is hasty and haphazard. I dunno, I just write whatever comes to mind.

------------------
"Carai an Mierendaira!" -- "Glory to the Blue Cross!"

[solypsist]

as much as this seems like an interruption in a great thread, i cant seem to get over my amusement with the word bêsubôru!!

sometimes i log on here just to read that post!!

[The Black Ship]

You guys remember "1941" with Belushi and Akroyd spoofin post-Pearl Harbor California civil defense.

Remember the scene where the look-out on the Japanese sub spots the ferris wheel rolling down the pier... " Hariwuudd!!!" LOL.

That still cracks me up http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

To get slightly back on topic, I think it's smart for the Japanese to phoenetisize (s/p?) words like that, save time re-inventing the wheel! Just wish we in America could stop the creation of dialects, e.g. ebonics. I just don't see the point http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Tachikaze]

Converting words from Western languages to Japanese poses some interesting challenges.

When I was an elementary school teacher, kids enjoyed seeing their names in katakana or hangul (Korean script). I used to write their names in these scripts during the lunch hour.

Maria, Amanda, Brennan, and Julia were no problem, but then I got to Silvia.

After thinking about the standard conversions, I came up with Shirubya in katakana. Quite a difference! The amazing thing is, the Japanese have a car, made by Nissan, called the Sylvia.

I know it's slipping from the subject, but I have heard that Japanese car makers thought their cars sounded "faster" or "hotter" with an L or R in the name. Thus, most Japanese cars have one:

Corolla
Celica
Chaser
Carina (notice Toyota's love affair with C)
Sylvia
Bluebird
Cherry
Gloria
Familia
Sprinter
Starlet
Cultus
Fairlady
Gazelle
Laurel

The irony is, their language has neither the L nor R sound, so they have trouble pronouncing it. Very few native Japanese can come close to pronouncing "Laurel" or "Fairlady" like an English-speaker.

Anssi, that's great stuff you wrote. I like the theory about some nations adopting things too quickly to "process" them. With your superb English (I assume Finnish is your first language -- you're from Suomi, right?), you probably understand language acquisition very well.

I think it's more likely for younger people to think foreign words are "cool". So, I wouldn't be surprised if words embraced by youth culture are more likely to be of foreign origin than words imported by the general populace. I know this is true for Japan.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Magraev]

Just to wave the danish flag - did you know that you have borrowed a word from us ? (at least I know it exists in french and english)

Well you have - it's "køkkenmødding" ! Dunno howe you spell it, but it's a great stone age pile of kitchen garbage ! cool eh.

[Tachikaze]

You Danes need to get to work developing something young Americans and Japanese will think is "cool." Then you'll see that ø all over the place!

Actually, young Americans probably do think stone age kitchen garbage is cool.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

By Tachikaze:
Quote I know it's slipping from the subject, but I have heard that Japanese car makers thought their cars sounded "faster" or "hotter" with an L or R in the name. Thus, most Japanese cars have one:[/QUOTE]This might be a sort of an "attraction of unfamiliarity" effect. Most, if not all, of the cars in your list are named after English words or names or other purely Nanban-jin (I love that word) concepts. It's a marketing thing - they imagine that things are more likely to be bought if they're named in an "international" fashion.

The other man's grass is always greener, and "customer attractive" product names are certainly a case in point. Throughout all time it has been considered sophisticated an civilized to speak a language of a nation considered culturally superior to one's own. The Romans recited poems in Greek, the Imperial Russian aristocracy spoke French almost as much as they spoke Russian, and the Japanese themselves always considered Chinese the true language of scholars and poets. (The inventor of the tea ceremony, Zen master Sen no Rikyû, wrote two death poems - one in Japanese and one in Chinese.)

I assume that, in the case of the Japanese, the words you mentioned are made even more foreign, and therefore attractive, by the "unpronouncables."

However, the Japanese, with their "Fast Cultural Adoption" trait (Fallout joke), take this a bit over the top as well. Many Japanese stores one may see lining the streets of Tôkyô have signs in front where the English slogan is put in a clearly superior position to the Japanese text that supposedly says what the store in question sells. Even more interestingly, this English slogan frequently reads something like "Duck"; a word or phrase that has seemingly no meaning at all.(My history teacher explained this via Zenbuddhism; in the Eastern cultures, the *form* is frequently more important than the actual content. Once you've seen a newly married Japanese couple cutting their huge rubber wedding cake with a wakizashi, you accept it.)

Quote I think it's more likely for younger people to think foreign words are "cool". So, I wouldn't be surprised if words embraced by youth culture are more likely to be of foreign origin than words imported by the general populace. I know this is true for Japan.[/QUOTE]And likewise, it's true for France (the most popular French teenagers' magazines are always named along the lines of "Le OK Magazine", "Le Bravo Girl", and such), it's true for Finland, it's true for Africa, everywhere. I can interpret this two ways: one, the young are more susceptible to outside influences, such as mass marketing by multinational corporations, or two, they're moving towards the international, pancultural global village at warp 9. And I don't know which alternative is worse.

And thank you for your (too) kind words on my English. It's the result of many years of consistently ignoring my Finnish teacher's instructions and reading cheap American SF paperbacks instead of classic literature. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"Carai an Mierendaira!" -- "Glory to the Blue Cross!"

[Tachikaze]

The Japanese love to use English in advertizing. This bit is from a store in Sapporo called, life design shop BLUE HOUSE:

"live together with interior. we have abundant original for your enjoy life coordination. we, design shop blue house, give aid to your self principle life style."

I loved that so much, I took a photo.

My girlfriend at the time had almost perfect English. She could have written the same sign perfectly, but she said it doesn't matter. The store owners were not trying to write correct English. The Japanese who read it don't care if it is grammatically sound. It is what she called, "Japanese English."

It is also refered to as "Japlish", however when sign makers are attempting correct English with dubious results, it is also called Japlish.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.