Biographical info

[FwSeal]

Just throwing this out:

If anyone happens to have a biographical question about 16th century samurai or samurai families, I've come up with quite a bit of new information from Japanese sources (Rekishi gunzo books and various other odds and ends) since the old forum. This includes some interesting info on the Takeda, Ii, Hojo, Uesugi, Mori, ect...
Just as examples - I had not known that Ii Naomasa's grandfather had been killed at Okehazama (fighting for Imagawa) and that Takeda Shingen's second son Nobuchika was blind - and that the son of Nobuchika was saved by Tokugawa Ieyasu when the Takeda fell in 1582.

[nokhor]

anything interesting about the oda or their senior vassals?

[Zen Blade]

You can probably guess what my question is Seal... : )
but for the newer ppl,

anything on the Asai (Nagamasa in particular)?

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[FwSeal]

Well, Zen_Blade, info on the Asai, for whatever reason, is somewhat harder to come by then many of the other families. I'm looking through something right now, but here is what I came up with a little while ago:

The Asai's origins are obscure but they may have been descended from the Ôgimachi, a Kuge family. They were formerly retainers of the Kyôgoku but Asai Bizen no kami Sukemasa (1495?-1546) gradually drew away from them and finally became independant. It is often recorded in English that he rebelled against the Rokkaku - it seems that it was in fact the Kyogoku, though he competed against the former on a number of occasions. He strengthened his position in N. Omi by allying with the Asakura. He had a number of sons, including Hisamasa and Takamasa. Hisamasa (Shimotsuke no kami; 1524?-1573) allied with the Saito (and married a daughter to Saito Yoshitatsu - this daughter was the mother of Saito Tatsuoki, whom nobunaga drove from Mino in 1567) and fought with the Rokkaku. He lost a number of castles to the Rokkaku, and was considering accepting their authority. This triggered a major dispute in Odani (the Asai's headquarters), with a strong contingent of retainers demanding that Hisamasa step down in favor of Nagamasa. The old chronicle 'Three Generations of the Asai' doesn't say that Hisamasa was an incompetant, rather, it implies that he was the victim of inter-clan politics. Anyway, Nagamasa (who had the title 'Bizen no kami') took over in 1560 and spent the next couple of years dealing with internal problems. I couldn't quite follow this part of the history, but it LOOKS like an Asai retainer or vassal with grass-roots support rebelled and held out for some time (I'll try and figure that out). During this time he also made the Imai, previously allies of equal standing, into vassals (the head of the Imai, Sadakiyo, was killed at the Battle of Futo in 1560). He began clashing with the Saito around this time as well, despite being Saito Tatsuoki's brother-in-law.
I'm currently looking for more of Nagamasa's history. I know that he had a number of brothers, one of which was named Masamoto. He had two very young sons when he commited suicide in 1573. Anyway, I'll keep looking...


As for the Oda generals, I recently posted a new section on the Archives site that describes famous retainers by family, and so far have up the Oda, Mori, Takeda, and Uesugi (working on Tokugawa). http://www.techjapanese.com/~samurai/famousgenerals.html

[This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 11-04-2000).]

[solypsist]

ask a question, get a term-paper!

wtg, Seal!

[The Black Ship]

In the community forum someone asked if the Chosokabe clan in the clan folder was named for Chosokabe Motochika (the Tosa high-ranker).
I thought it must be, but wondered why a Hideyoshi general was labeled Ronin in the game. Any rational idea as to why?

[FwSeal]

As I recall, the Chosokabe were in the original line-up of Total War's player-daimyo (Chosokabe's bio used to be on the TW.com site) but for whatever reason was cut late in development (which I found a disappointment). I wondered if this was done for balancing reasons, or to give some meat to a possible expansion pack...

[The Black Ship]

Really,

Do you remember any more details, like which provinces he would have governed (other than Tosa)?

Seems like their strategic advantage would have to be low-cost Yari Samurai. That one hasn't been used yet.

[FwSeal]

Here's a little more on Asai Nagamasa...

When he became lord, he faced a number of invasions by the Rokkaku and others tempted by the Asai's evident internal problems. In 1561 Nagamasa crushed a Rokkaku army and retook Futo Castle. This was probably the young Nagamasa's finest hour - his army was outnumbered over 2 to 1 but due in large part to his leadership truimphed. After this battle, the retainers in the Asai house were said to have commented that Nagamasa was his grandfather reborn. Other forays by the Asai's neighbors were repulsed easily - earning Nagamasa a good reputation in the region as a commander.
By this time, the Saito were enemies of the Asai. Nagamasa led an army into Mino and drew the Saito army to battle. While the initial movements were to Nagamasa's advantage, word came that the Rokkaku had taken advantage of the Asai's involvement to attack Sawayama Castle back in Omi. Nagamasa hastily dispatched Isono Kazumasa with a force to march to Sawayama's relief, which Kazumasa (one of the Asai greats) preformed with distinction. Nagamasa, having perhaps made his point to the Saito, afterwards withdrew.
It is not really clear just when Nagamasa was married to the sister of Oda Nobunaga but this is assumed to have occured around 1564. A story goes that later, when Nobunaga and Nagamasa met one another, only Asai retainer Endo Naotsune discerned how dangerous Nobunaga was. This leads us to Nagamasa's decision to betray his alliance with Oda.
In 1570, Nobunaga marched on the Asakura, who sent a messanger to Odani pleading for Asai support. Nagamasa called for an assembly of his retainers and asked for their opinions. The majority of the men favored breaking the alliance and supporting the Asakura. The minority, led by Endo Naotsune, objected to this move and pointed out that earlier Asai-Asakura joint endeavors had not always ended favorably for the Asai. Some think that Naotsune realized how formidable Nobunaga was, and this influenced his objection. At any rate, Nagamasa went with the majority view and threw in with the Asakura. Later that year Nobunaga attacked Odani and the Battle of Anegawa was fought, in the course of which both Isono Kazumasa and Endo were killed. Nobunaga then moved up to besiege Odani but, making no impression on the defenses, withdrew after a week or so.

I'll post anything else I can find on this interesting (and evidently underrated) daimyo...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Still about the Chosokabe clan:

Maybe Black Ship just generalized slightly, but Chosokabe Motochika wasn't just a Hideyoshi general. He was the daimyô of Tosa, and he and his predecessor controlled, at the peak of their power, pretty much the whole of the island of Shikoku (known to us as the Ronin Island). Knowing STW's way of bending history a bit, it's plausible to assume that the Chosokabe clan would have controlled the whole of Shikoku, and maybe Awaji as well. The problem is, they would still have had only five provinces, whereas all (?) the others have six. According to Turnbull, Hideyoshi invaded the Island in 1585, and after some battles the Chosokabe capitulated rather than stood against the Oda Horde. They were allowed to keep Tosa, and later, as Black Ship pointed out, assisted Hideyoshi in the Kyûshû and Korean expeditions. Finally, they fought with Ishida against Tokugawa at Sekigahara, and Tokugawa later confiscated the last of their lands.

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"The ancient rule declares that letters are the left hand and militarism the right. Neither must be neglected."
- Hôjô Sôun

[Zen Blade]

Once again Seal you have brought forth some new and interesting info.
thank you very much.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[FwSeal]

Asai Nagamasa really does come across as a tragic figure. He was clearly a talented general and might well have carved out quite a name for himself had he not taken the fateful step of crossing Nobunaga. Even then, he was undone - it seems to me - by simple numerical inferiority. His army fought very well at Anegawa and the victory near Otsu later that year. Yet he never mustered more then 10,000 men - and, just as Endo Naotsune had warned, their allaince with the Asakura was not to their advantage.
As an aside, I recently read that Takeda Shingen had evidently been informed that Asakura and Asai would attack the Oda lands while he was campaigning against the Tokugawa in the winter of 1572-73. Shingen defeated the Tokugawa at Mikatagahara on 6 January 1573; just two days later, while still north of Hamamatsu, word came that the Asakura had elected not to move. Shingen issued a statement condemning the Asakura's lack of will and marched back to Kai. this event is depicted in the movie "Kagemusha', although, for whatever reason, Kurosawa has it go down while Shingen was attacking Noda Castle, later that year.

[Zen Blade]

Seal,
by any chance, do you have any info on Otsu?? I have heard about that battle and the how Nobunaga apparently lost a brother there, but that is all I have ever seen about it? Was this involved with the Asai/Asakura push towards the capital or the Enriyaku (sp off) monks that were later annihilated?

thanks,

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[FwSeal]

Zen Blade - I've seen something on that battle somewhere - I'll look around.

[FwSeal]

Hmm, there isn't too much on the battle (available to me, anyway), but this is what I could find:

The Asai and Asakura army, eager to avenge Anegawa, marched to SW Omi in October 1570, with the Asai under Nagamasa and the Asakura under Asakura Kagetake. They had around 9,000 men under their command, whereas the Oda, whom they encountered near Sakamoto, had only a thousand. The Oda commanders, Mori Yoshinari and Oda Nobuharu, were both killed. In the immediate aftermath, Nagamasa and Kagetake made an attempt to bring down nearby Usayama Castle without succes. They therefore advanced to the district of Yamashina and set fires to the local villages. At this point, Kagetake seems to have advised that, as Kyoto was so close, they ought to just march right in. Nagamasa, however, prudently decided to wait until the main body of the army, under Asakura Yoshikage, arrived. By the time Yoshikage arrived on the scene, however, Nobunaga had already responded to the defeat at Sakamoto and was in the area with his own army. Neither side was quite willing to offer a direct battle at this point, and so the Asai/Asakura took up on Mt. Hiei. It was probably hoped that the Miyoshi and Ishiyama Honganji adherants to the west would rise to harry Nobunaga while he was distracted.
Rather then attack Mt. Hiei directly, Nobunaga looked for ways to force the Asai and Asakura to retreat. To this end, he dispatched Saki Masashisa and others to attack an Asakura supply point at Katada. The Asai/Asakura caught wind of what was going on and dispatched an army to intercept the Oda raid. 4,000 Asai and Asakura crushed an Oda force of about 1,400 - leaving, it is said, as many as 1,000 Oda dead.
As the stalemate continued, Nobunaga and Yoshikage began seeking a way out of the situation. Nobunaga in particular needed to respond to other threats, including the Nagashima ikko-ikki. Nagamasa and his men, however, were opposed to peace at this time, sensing that Nobunaga was in a tough spot.
In the event, however, Nobunaga convinced the Court and Bakufu to intercede and call for peace. Nagamasa had no choice but to obey and the Asai and Asakura retreated. The peace treaty would fold the following year.

[This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Zen Blade]

Thanks for the quick response Seal.
Just about all of that was new info to me. Very cool info actually, it makes my heart proud [ :)]. You know, the more I learn of Asakura Yoshikage the more I wonder how he managed to stay around for so long. From what I have seen, he was more often than not a hesitant ruler who did not wish to get involved in many affairs. (of course my knowledge is not that great so I speak on this with no authority or great assuredness).

well, if you ever come across any other info related to the Asai, Seal, I would be more than willing to read the post (on your site or here)

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[FwSeal]

Here are a few more interesting facts about the war between Oda and Asai/Asakura (and another case of Yoshikage's over-caution).

Nagamasa's Odani Castle was in fact threatened by Nobunaga a total of five times:
July 1570, September 1571, April 1572, August 1572, and, finally, September 1573.

In the 4th battle of Odani, Nobunaga had decided to try to finish Nagamasa in one blow, leading a large army of somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 men to the castle. This was also to be the first battle his son and heir, Nobutada, took plart in. Hideyoshi and many other well-known Oda generals were also present. The first Oda attack Nagamasa's outer defenses were breached and Nagamasa's own residence went up in flames. Further Oda efforts stalled, however, (thanks in part to the staunch resistance of Atsuji Sadahide, Odani's garrison commander) and in the meantime Asakura Yoshikage had led some 20,000 men down from Echizen and took up at Otake Castle, somewhat north of Odani. Nobunaga sent Yoshikage a challange to battle and a fight between Oda and Asakura ashigaru developed. In the course of the contest, a certain Asakura warrior named Nagasaki Daijo (I THINK it's Daijo), a master bowman, rode in the direction of Nobunaga's headquarters, determined to put an arrow in Nobunaga. He was unable to get in range, however, due to Oda spearmen. While this battle was inconculsive, it finished in favor of the Asakura (for once).
A few weeks later, a retainer of Asakura Kagemori named Takeuchi Sannosuke led a group of men under cover of a rain storm into the Oda camp and set a number of fires (how they managed this in a storm isn't explained) and generally created chaos. In the confusion, the Oda warriors began fighting with one another and all told around 700 men were killed in this manner. A great opportunity existed for the Asai and Asakura to follow up the fiasco in the Oda camp; unfortunatly, Yoshikage once again hesitated and did not move (leaving Nagamasa with little choice but to sit tight). Nobunaga apparently decided that things just weren't going according to plan and soon after departed the field.

[This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 11-10-2000).]

[ShaiHulud]

FWSeal.. Your posts here floored me. Where do you get such info? I'd love to read (in ENGLISH) this kind of stuff...hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[FwSeal]

Most of that came from various Rekishi Gunzo titles. The funny thing about the way Japanese write popular history is that it tends to be very 'anecdotal' - which is to say, there might not be many dates or even detailed biographical info - which can be frustrating. At the same time, this can provide many neat insights - for example, you'd never find in any english source that Takeda Shingen is reputed to have had an odd aversion to green caterpillars. Supposedly, Baba Nobufusa enjoyed finding them so that he could, evidently, wierd Shingen out by leaving them on his camp stool or waving them in his face (that from 'Kono Issatsu De [Sengoku Bushô] 101nin ga Wakaru!')
The anecdotes can even provide useful insights on sengoku law. A number of sengoku daimyo (Satomi and Sagara) established in their house codes that graffiti was to be considered a legitimate way in which lesser retainers might get their points across. In the Satomi clan, a lampoon was written on a castle wall that suggested that a certain Fukuhara Shinano no kami, a daikan, was corrupt and misusing the taxes (nengu) he collected.
(fukuhara no kyonin to wa kikitsuredo
nengu ni tsukete shinano ashisayo)
Satomi Yoshihiro, the daimyo, heard of the writings and ordered an investigation. Fukuhara (or Fukubara) was found guilty of corruption and made to resign his post.
This contrasts with the common practice of the Hojo (rivals of the Satomi), which was to make claimants come to Odawara Castle itself and state their grievances. This is thought to have been to intimidate anyone who might want to question the Hojo daikans.