Importance of Japanese History??

[Zen Blade]

Well, anyone have any particular idea of the importance of Japanese history, culture on the world? Or why you like Japanese history (particulary the Sengoku Jidai aka STW time period)?

This is just one of those topics to keep ppl talking and expressing their views.


-Personally, I like it for several reasons. One, it is something different from the Western culture that many of us have grown up with and learned almost exculsively about.
Another reason is the warfare. The Japanese warfare of that time fascinates me. Mainly b/c they didn't have all that armor and they hadn't yet gotten completely into that siege warfare frame of mind. There was still room for the honorable individual warrior to make his name and do noble deeds.

-well there are other reasons, but let's see what everyone else thinks.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

[Shogun So]

I agree it was the individual who could make a difference and shed his blood. That's what makes it the best and also his skill in battle.. To have lived in such glory would have been great.

[Tachikaze]

Good idea for a thread.

When I was young, I was interested in the medieval warfare of Japan. I also got into their 20th Century naval warships. I read I-Boat Captain, which I recommend, and saw all the samurai films that showed at our cinemas. I also read Yoshitsune. I watched Godzilla movies, Gigantor and the Kimba the White Lion series (what was the name of that show?).

My interest spread to other areas. I started to learn the language, and study their culture. Probably what fascinated me most was from my standpoint of being an American. In some ways the two cultures are direct opposites (e.g. Japan promotes group thinking, cooperation, and group competition; the U.S. emphasizes individualism and individual competition). But they are also very much alike in other ways, ways only two of them share to a strong degree (e.g. their approach to pop culture, which is excessive compared to other places, like Europe). Both cultures are cultures of extremes.

Another area I found fascinating was the Japanese approach to love, sex, and marriage. Wow. You can really see how the U.S. form of Christianity has controlled conservative views in the United States. One interesting book is Pink Samurai: Love, Marriage, & Sex in Contemporary Japan.

The Sengoku Jidai is the most appropriate era for this game, but I'm partial to the era of the Fujiwara, Taira, Minamoto, the Gempei War, Yoshitsune, Benkei, and the Genji Monogatari. It's more classical and mythical.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 11-19-2000).]

[solypsist]

actually STW has been my first in-depth introduction into Fuedal Japan. I had seen some Kurosawa flicks, but never went past watching them; STW has lead me to go out and explore the rich history of Japan through outside readings and such.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-19-2000).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Same story as solypsist's: STW is what made me get up and *learn* about Japanese history. Japan was on my list of "things to find out about" prior to STW, but only after I'd read some of the posts on the old Dojo, watched Kagemusha and borrowed some of Turnbull's books did I understand What It's Really All About.

Zen_Blade's question about what in the subject fascinated me made me think (aww, now you've done it, 'Blade http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif). After reflection, I came to the conclusion that although I am primarily an armchair military historian and Japanese military history is one of the richest subjects one can find, it really isn't what caused the legendary "immersion effect" in the first place.

Rather, it's the philosophical background that permeates the entire Japanese culture, but the samurai especially. Not only is it the willingness and ability to sacrifice the individual for the greater good (which I consider one of the greatest virtues) that fascinates me, but the entire "culture of perfection" shaped to achieve that goal. It's reflected both in Yamaga Soko's "Hagakure's" opening "the way of the samurai is found in death" and my sig below. Such unconditional and perfect dedication is, IMHO, one of the noblest qualities ever to be found in a human being.

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"A bushi who has mastered the jutsu but knows nothing of the do is like a priest who preaches one thing and does another."
- Shimmen Miyamoto Musashi

[ShaiHulud]

Hmm..for me there have been a a number of things that I learned of as a youngster (who read voraciously) that profoundly affected me.
The Finns defense against the Russian juggernaut....The charge of the Light Brigade...The Polish Cavalry charging German tanks....The Kamikaze....
I don't even want to go into the psychological bent these things might suggest... the Kamikaze captured my interest long ago and it has expanded from there.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[The Black Ship]

I tend to look for parallels in dfferent cultures, for comparison/contrast purposes. I've often found the Japanese enigmatic, their attitude towards personal honor (most battles pre-Sengoku began with challenges for personal combat-much as Homer describes in the Iliad) coupled with their fervent obedience to the social strata. How to reconcile these two points?
Their isolation is also compelling/frustrating. While influenced by Chinese/European goods Japan remains uniquely Japanese, even when emulating outside cultures.

They seem to be a paradox, wrapped up in an enigma, surrounded by a question mark.

P.S. got a little poetic there at the end...promise it will never happen again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Niger Navis Navis Sesquiculus

[ShaiHulud]

Black Ship...Well, if Churchill doesn't complain, I won't mention it..(hehe)

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Idaho]

I think Churchill's was:

- a riddle wrapped in a puzzle surrounded by an enigma -

Someone please correct me. Wasn't it about Russia?

My interest in Japanese history came from a general interst in History (I studied it at University) and an interest in Japan (I spent a year and a half there).

For me the Edo period is the most interesting. Perhaps Shai-Hulud has read God Emperor of Dune (surely?!) Tokugawa's success in controlling the country for 300 years fascinates me.

Also, I see a lot of parralells between Tokugawa (Iyesu) and Henry VIII in England.

But Early Modern History isn't really my number one thing. I am more interested in the Meiji Restoration and the catch-up of the pre-war years. It is possible to see the second world war as a product of catch up. Japan had everything the modern western powers had - except one thing - an empire. After the US blocked their attempts to expand, war was inevitable.

[ShaiHulud]

I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.
Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965), Radio speech, 1939

Yah, Idaho, a good read, but the first book was the best!
Regretably my insights into Tokugawa result from my wife (who read the romantic Korean 15-book version of his life) and whatever one can deduce from Shogun. You'd think in Hawaii there'd be ONE book (in English) that
rendered his life.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[The Black Ship]

Ok, Ok!!!

I surrender to Churchillian prose...there you two happy! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'll just say the Japanese are different.

As to the best Herbert book, I've already told Shai it's Chapterhouse! The Duncan's hold the key to mankind's salvation http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Of course I completely understand ShaiHulud's bias http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[ShaiHulud]

Black Ship..hehe (sorry, I don't know how to do happy faces!)

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Idaho]

Black ship - an poster after my own heart...

Idahos are the key to the universe...

I didn't used to like God Emperor - but I re-read the whole series and now it's my favourite.

Any views on the forthcoming Dune miniseries?

[The Black Ship]

From the cutshots I can only hope it's not too "cartoonish".

Oh, and just to keep on topic...umm well the Japanese diet is certainly unique! Maybe it has something to do with their uniqueness (raw fish, urchin eggs, whale meat...yuck!)

[Idaho]

Not so much whale meat these days - although I was served it a couple of times. The Japanese can't really understand our problem with it... and I found it difficult to support. I decided that westerners considered whales to be sacred - and the Japanese I spoke to seemed quite satisfied with this explanation.

Sea urchins and sea cucumbers are not bad actually! Try them pickled!

The most revolting food they have is called natto - its fermented soya beans. It stinks and tastes like shit, and is the source of much mirth to Japs who like to encourage you to eat it.

[ShaiHulud]

Idaho...Egad...I can't wait for the Dune mini to get here! From what I've seen it looks to follow the book closely and they've gone to great effort to develop characters other than just Paul Atriedes.
The first movie, tho it has some good points, always left me feeling dissapointed. And the Baron was in no wise like he from the book.
(Is there more than one Idaho? The OTHER Idaho posting seems SO much more argumentative! hehe)

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[The Black Ship]

Let's all hope the series is done well, and more series will follow.

So urchin and cucumber is tasty ehh? Seems quite revolting, but then again I hate fish http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Just wish Japanese food was tastier, like Thai or Chinese, I've yet to find something I truly like http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Word-san]

Friends, you must realize that Japanese cuisine is all about the sake.

This nectar of the gods, yea, called a wine, but brewed like a beer, and with a taste like a liquor, is three drinks in one!

We've got a restaurant in my San Francisco North Beach neighborhood that serves over 40 varieties of the lovely stuff (almost always served cold, the proper way to drink it to most fully enjoy its flavor and bouquet; only the cheap stuff is heated -- and only unknowing gaijin always insist upon it hot!)

Remember, if you don't like Japanese food, but you wish to be polite, simply suck down delicious sake until your tastebuds are killed, and even snot-textured urchin will go down with ease. http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/sally/dazed.gif

PS: I only really wrote this so I could reach my 20-post Ashigaru ranking; a much cooler picture!


[This message has been edited by Word-san (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Idaho]

Shai-hulud - you should know that there are many Idahos...

Sake is not ALWAYS cold. Usually it is cold in summer and hot in winter.... simple really. I have had top of the range hot sake in winter - for breakfast! I stayed in a temple on new years eve last year and that's what they served before morning prayers!

I think Japanese food is overrated - the Japanese make to much of it. You start to get the feeling that the excess of hype is trying to make up for the fact that it is fundamentally mediocre. Saying that, I really miss tendon.

[Shogun So]

I thought he who controls the spice controls the universe .. umm oriental spice

i.e key http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Ieyasu]

Erm, well aside from the fact that it's GOOD FOR YOU, I've grown a rather strong hook to it (Japanese Cuisine) in my age. When I was a child, visiting Japan, I used to starve, lol. Anything for MacDonald's... oh God, the thought of that now. THAT makes me sick.

But aside from all the unique things and wondrous foods that I have tried there (Word-san, were you ever served Dolphin? Now THAT is something really repulsive from a social/cultural standpoint, yet for them, it is a delicacy. They don't hunt them mind you, it's from the ones that get caught in the nets -- oooo, whole other discussion there). It was like... erm, Chicken. But I only tried a small piece out of respect for my hosts. My sister refused.

gee... where was I? Oh, aside from all the wonderful dishes I've had, yes, I am in complete agreement with Wordsan... Natto is completely sickening. For me, it's not only the bitter-bitter taste, but the consistency... which comes from crushed ocra... yuck. It feels like snot going down your throat.

Oh, and being from SF, have you tried a little place called "Mo-Mo's" nestled in Bernal Heights? It's off of Cortland. Gotta go there. Great sushi... amazing rolls... good sake... and extremely reasonable in price!

On a note about history, lol... I was actually quite fascinated with the whole legend of King Arthur bit... the Crusades... the armor, the code (if there was one). This was a natural transition to the Bushido... the idea of completely accepting one's death as inevitable. Amazing stuff.

Perhaps its the mythological aspects of it all that also seem to attract me... the nobility, the strength, will, and discipline... the etiquette and rules of the court. Stuff that just seems rather fantastic in a modern context.



[This message has been edited by Ieyasu (edited 12-14-2000).]

[Ieyasu]

Addendum...

It's MOKI'S... not MoMo's... not the little joint across from Pac Bell stadium...

Moki's, a sushi roll place in Bernall Heights... sorry about that bit. doh