Europa Barbarorum [Archive]

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khelvan

10-14-2004, 02:03

Greetings!

You have found the workplace for the development of our community mod, Europa Barbarorum. This RTW mod is intended to shape the world, units, and gameplay to be as realistic as possible.

This thread will be used to facilitate the technical aspects of creating the mod, from assigning tasks to status reports. If you are looking for our ongoing discussion regarding historical research, you can find it here:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33417

Current status:

We have released v0.1 for internal alpha testing.

Cheers,

-khel

khelvan

10-14-2004, 02:30

Please allow me to kick off this party!

I am relatively new to the modding scene, having done only a bit of code work on Battlefield 1942, but I find I have a real passion for it, and for the numbers behind the game system. My primary focus has been on building and unit balance, the population growth and economic systems, and the battle system. I also have many references on the classical Romans, and to a smaller extent the Greeks, so I have been delving into that quite a bit.

I have a strong background in project management and so I would like to offer my services to assist us in coming to a common understanding of our goals, keep us all working toward those goals, and keep the community informed of our status.

From my experience playing with the code so far, I see the following areas which need leadership:

-campaign map/province/city changes
-faction name changes/new faction implementation
-unit changes/new unit implementation
-battle system changes
-naval battle changes
-economic/population model changes

Basically, while it makes sense to break up work based on different factions, for instance, someone is going to have to be in charge of bringing it all together, since these changes impact the same files.

In addition, we should think about how to go about creating and releasing the mod. I think everyone would agree that it makes sense to move in steps. I suggest that the first step should be to make changes to existing units and factions, and to make the best of what we were given, since work can be done on new factions and units while this is happening, and that work will be much more time consuming.

So, there is a lot to be done. I suggest we all post our skills and interests, pick some members for the positions of responsibility, and provide our suggestions on what portions you would like to see worked on first, so we can set some priorities.

As I said above, I volunteer to keep an eye on the goals, tasks, and status of the project. I can also continue my work on the population growth/economic side of things. I have some free time to spread around, if others have no interest in some of the other things I have been working on. Though I think it makes sense to spread the work out, so we can get things done in a timely matter.

I look forward to working with you all!

Cheers,

-khel

Vercingetorix

10-14-2004, 20:58

Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-15-2004, 00:41

Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.
Welcome, Vercingetorix!!! I'm honoured by the fact that you want to join our project.

As for what I'll do:

-3d unit changes (skinning and modelling - beware, I'm slow at it).
-Coordinating info about unit changes, specific to the units needing alteration.
-Coordinating Historical info (in the other thread).

Steppe Merc

10-15-2004, 01:40

Well, I'm horrible at the modding, very slow and I get distracted easily. Mabye we can make a list of units that:
a. Are fine as they are (Romans)
b. Ok, but need a few touches. (I think the Greeks, right?)
c. Very sad, but salvagable if need be. These need to be totally reskinned (aka all shirtless barbarians, the pajama Parthians, etc)
d. These units must be taken out, and everyone must forget that they ever existed (Screaming women, breast cup Amazons, etc.)
e. New units that should be added.

khelvan

10-15-2004, 01:56

Sounds good, Steppe Merc. The first step, in my opinion, is to get people in charge of particular areas of the mod. For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.

PSYCHO V

10-15-2004, 08:26

khelvan

10-15-2004, 10:41

My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.

I have actually been taking steps to do so, and would love some help in putting out something stable that includes a few key improvements.

My wish list for this included removing ahistorical units, rebalancing the factions, moving quite a few provinces to different factions, renaming several factions, rebalancing a few units, and making a few changes to the Roman tech tree. If someone wants to do some basic skinning to modify a few existing units to make some "new" ones, that would be great.

Things I've done so far (which may or may not be included in the above, depending on the folks we put in charge of the various tasks):

-Gave Carthage more gold, ships, and several provinces, as well as more aggressive AI
-Adjusted unit movement speed and kill speed
-Reduced population growth rate
-Increased requirements for Imperial Palace (i.e. for Marian reforms)

If this is the route we're going to take, with a small step at first, I really need to sit down and chat with someone who understands better than I do with my limited reading how ancient combat played out, and how we can best manipulate the system to represent it. Both ground and naval combat can be tweaked. We also need to collect a list of which provinces should go to which factions, which units need to go and which that stay need to be tweaked, and anything else that can make the existing factions/units/provinces/battles look more historical.

Many things that you would want to tweak, can be tweaked. If you think something could be changed, ask - you would be surprised what we can change. We could add names to a family tree, for instance.

New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.

The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)

-khel

Stefan the Berserker

10-15-2004, 21:19

Steppe Merc

10-16-2004, 03:49

Huge problem that I noted: mercanaries need to be totally different units. So you can't have a Gaul mercanary unit unless you create a whole new unit that's specifically a mercanary called Gaul Mercanary or some such. And since there is a unit cap (I think), we either need to find a way around this or have units that are normally mercs trainable.

khelvan

10-16-2004, 06:06

Not true - I was able to add "barb cavalry dacian" units to Numidia by tacking on a single line in the North Africa section of the mercenaries file. Granted, the unit had the "grey peasant" unit card, but it was still hireable as a mercenary in that area without creating a different unit.

Oleander Ardens

10-16-2004, 16:10

The Economy section would suit me well, as I study it as well as History. I researched most European factions, especially the Germans and Celts and the Scythians and Sarmantians for EB with Angadil. I also could advise about the missile weapons and balance them. I have only limited mod-experience, but I usually learn very fast when I focus on something.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

For fast changes:

I would outright remove the Gaul Forester and the Chosen Archer Warband for the Germans and give them instead the "Archer Warband". The Gauls should get a Slinger, the Germans a Warband similar to the Britain and Gaul while having their Phalanx Warband only available at higher levels. No Axemen and Chosen Axemen for the Germans, instead a "Chosen Swordsmen"
No Warhounds.

This are just very small and very fast changes, but the gameplay would get far more historic as you can not rely on your superarchers and wardogs...

Cheers
OA

Hagbard la Suede

10-16-2004, 16:13

Uhm,removing the axemen?
And replace them with swordsmen?
I say give em a shirt instead.

Oleander Ardens

10-16-2004, 16:29

Well there are very very few findings of axes in germanic warrior graves, although in some regions the axe was more important than in others. Southern Sweden was surly on of this, and may even have been the originator of the throwing axe. I have seen a rockcarving of a Swedish "francisca"

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31982&highlight=franciska

Anyway a German unit with a sword is a must, the Axemen could be restricted the Scandinavian province..

Cheers
OA

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 18:07

For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.
OK. I'll take that job. Tomorrow, I'll put a list organized in topics like Steppe Merc proposed. Later this week, I'll start posting specific unit characteristics to be modified (including pics).

Mouzafphaerre has given us a very helpfull advice on organizing info and keep the MOD info from confusing us:

To post specific threads in the RTW/Modification forum for each area of modification. We can divide them under topics like:

-Text files (modding stats, balance and gameplay alterations...)
-Graphic files modification (all concerning unit, flags, colours, etc...)
-...
-...

Anyone care to comment? Maybe give your own proposals?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 18:16

Good job khelvan, warm welcome Vercingetrix!

Ok,for myself:

Interest in order of preference:

1) Gauls / Celtiberians
2) Britons
3) Germans
4) Iberians

Can offer research and commentary. I'll be picking up photoshop in a week so will try my hand at skinning. Never attempted modding before but pretty proficient with PS. Hopefully with some help on the tech side from you blokes I'll be able to help ~D
Don't worry. The proficiency with PSP is the most important aspect. The rest is just paying attention to DJ's Graphic Guides. Since I'll be involved with unit graphics, we can coordinate info and exchange ideas and doubts about the skinnning.

I think it's important to provide a stable product. We need to build the trust, repour with the community. Too many mods suffer from errors etc. May I suggest that:

A) We should start with minor fixes (possibly re-doing the units) and work our way through.
B) Thoroughly test all changes for bugs
Hey, PSYCHO V!!! ~:wave: I want to play the MOD and I hate bugs!! :wink: The stability won't be a problem, because we'll never release a version that is not bug free. As for the hard-coded issues, that will depend on CA patches.

Question re units:

What do you guys think about generally keeping the same units as per current game and modding them to be more correct;

Or do you think we should just overhaul the whole unit structure from the outset?
IMHO, baby stepps, please!! Jumping the gun will only make it harder to debugg.

Steppe Merc

10-16-2004, 19:25

Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 20:22

My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.
Agreed.

New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.
Agreed.

The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)
Have you heard him? Get to work, boys!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 21:16

I'll see what I can do, as I bought the Game yesterday I have no real insight how what can be changed...

Initially I would rather say that the Barbarian Units are strangely weak and the Borders are wrong:

- Germania Superior is Gaulish in 260 B.C.
- Belgae should be Rebel, how sould it be British?

For further things I'll first tryout for myself what's possible...
Great ot hear from you Stefan. We really need your imput. ~:wave:

About CA's decision to give Belgae to the Britons, I think it concerns the lack of provinces in the British Isles. The Britons wouln't be able to survive without Belgae. But you're right, Belgae should be rebel. The way to solve this problem is to make more. BKB has been doing it already. The Gaul-Germanic amounts to the same.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 22:19

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 23:20

Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.
Mouzafphaerre mentioned that we should do preciselly that. The groups should be divided according to interests and working preferences.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-16-2004, 23:40

Here is a template regarding the interess groups. I've taken some liberties. Correct me, please. So far we have:

-Gameplay balancing, economical and strategical data, strategical map:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...

-Unit editing and implementation, 2d and 3d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
reconspy???
Steppe Merc???

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Stefan the Berserker???
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Steppe Merc???
Hagbard la Suede???
...
...

Help me complete this, regarding topics and volunteers... :help:

Stefan the Berserker

10-17-2004, 00:31

I tried to create a new Unit by adding this to export_descr_unit.txt:

type greek hoplite elite
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans

The Game started normally and I could even select the "Hoplite" for germanics in skirmish. When the Skirmish started they appeared, as wished with the Warguards-Model... they marched and change formation without any problem, but if they attack the game screws up... ~:confused:

khelvan

10-17-2004, 00:52

First, did you add a "new" unit or did you merely edit the unit that already exists with the same name?

Sorry, I should be more clear - did you add an entirely new entry into the text file, and you copied the greek names and all? Or did you just edit the existing entry so that the call for greek elite hoplites gives you units that look like warbands?

Because if you added a "new" unit with the same type and dictionary call I am surprised your game didn't CTD upon loading.

Also, add -show_err to the command line, load up the game, then exit once you get to the main menu. This should bring up an error message to let you know that there is a problem somewhere. Unfortunately you don't get the message if you let it crash, you have to exit yourself.

Steppe Merc

10-17-2004, 01:36

Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 02:33

Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...
OK. No problem. Testing and gameplay balance then.

The list has been changed to incorporate khelvan's suggestions:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens???
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

...
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Stefan the Berserker???
reconspy???

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

Colovion
...
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Hagbard la Suede???
...

More imput people, please... :help:

Updated 3:25 - 10/17/04

Colovion

10-17-2004, 03:21

Ranika

10-17-2004, 03:22

I'd like to help, but not sure exactly what I'd do. I do know a lot of the indigenous names of Celtic cities in Gaul and Britain, and Hibernia (though, Tara is correct anyway). I know a lot of bits and pieces of things in the barbarian cultures, a good deal in the Celts, but there's already a lot of help for that, and only a few things bout the Germans. As far as technical aspects of the game go, I can't do much outside of stat editting. I could potentially skin, but I lack photoshop right now, so won't commit to that

If there is anyway I can help, sign me up for whatever, and I'll do what I can.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 04:00

Put me down for the Gameplay/Debugging. I don't know the first thing about actually doing the mods though - so the most I can do (right now) is just give input on the things being discussed.
Great. You've been added to the list.

Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?
khelvan knows it better than I. I've only got through the txt files recently, but it seems that the tweaks that we can do concern winning chances, cost, build time, preference of construction and money diverted to the navy by each faction.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 04:10

khelvan

10-17-2004, 04:41

Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

There are lots of naval changes I can think of. First, I know certain factions would have lighter, quicker ships than the triremes and other galleys. Second, I do not believe there was ever anything called a decere. Third, I know that the Romans and other factions used ships much larger than the basic biremes and triremes, though I can only find names for them like "six," "eight," "sixteen," and so on, referring to the rowing configuration somehow. Connolly, for one, has much information about this. Fourth, I believe, from the accounts I have read in Connolly et al, that lethality was much higher than it currently is.

So I was hoping to work with someone who knows more about the navies of the time than I do. I am just a novice regarding them, but I can see that things really have to change.

Regarding ship building times, these should actually be shorter, if anything. The Romans and Carthaginians, at least, could and did mass-produce ships numbering in the hundreds in just a month or two. Ships should be plentiful.

I would also like to extend the zones of control of ships if at all possible, so they are more effective on the seas. I would also consider tweaks to the naval speed on the strategic map, as well as ground speed on the strategic map - this, however, may be a question of gameplay vs. realism. I would expect ships, at least, to be able to travel much further than they do currently based on the timeframe of the turns, and perhaps ground units as well, but this may have very bad consequences in a turn-based game. We need to ponder this.

-khel

TigerVX

10-17-2004, 05:04

Hey, I've just been recruited to help with retexturing units. I got some work in the New Units file, namely new egyptian units. So I'll do whatever you guys want me to do, but I'll have a hard time editting animals, I prefer to edit men. Anyways, I'm gonna be helping out with textures (And POSSIBLEY, I need to get alot better at 3dsmax, 3D units in the future.)

Colovion

10-17-2004, 05:15

There are lots of naval changes I can think of. First, I know certain factions would have lighter, quicker ships than the triremes and other galleys. Second, I do not believe there was ever anything called a decere. Third, I know that the Romans and other factions used ships much larger than the basic biremes and triremes, though I can only find names for them like "six," "eight," "sixteen," and so on, referring to the rowing configuration somehow. Connolly, for one, has much information about this. Fourth, I believe, from the accounts I have read in Connolly et al, that lethality was much higher than it currently is.

So I was hoping to work with someone who knows more about the navies of the time than I do. I am just a novice regarding them, but I can see that things really have to change.

Regarding ship building times, these should actually be shorter, if anything. The Romans and Carthaginians, at least, could and did mass-produce ships numbering in the hundreds in just a month or two. Ships should be plentiful.

I would also like to extend the zones of control of ships if at all possible, so they are more effective on the seas. I would also consider tweaks to the naval speed on the strategic map, as well as ground speed on the strategic map - this, however, may be a question of gameplay vs. realism. I would expect ships, at least, to be able to travel much further than they do currently based on the timeframe of the turns, and perhaps ground units as well, but this may have very bad consequences in a turn-based game. We need to ponder this.

-khel

I agree with all of your points. I notice a lack of depth in the naval area especially in RTW than I did in MTW and your points would bring up many more intricacies in it. I also notice that they are pretty slow - but maybe that's because the land units can move just as quickly so it seems that it's poor. However, the turns are 6 months - so that movement isn't totally out of the question.

Has anyone started listing the names of new/present Units in All of the Factions? Perhaps it would be good to figure out what units we are going to put into the game and have a list so we know what we need for each unit (Names, Stats, Skins, Build Time, Where they can be built etc...). This will probably really increase the rate of work on this because then we'll ahve a tangible result of work we have done and work which needs to be done.

Colovion

10-17-2004, 05:20

Oh yeah:

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/

Age of Mythology incorporates a rock/paper/scissors device with their naval program. This may take a lot more time to put into the game and since the naval aspect is already pretty dumbed down as it is it might not be worth it. But just for ponderance sake:

Trireme

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/trireme.jpg

The Trireme is the Greek arrow type ship, and the most basic Greek naval unit. It counters ramming ships.

Pentekonter

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/pentekonter.jpg

The Pentekonter is the Greek ramming type ship, and counters siege ships. Ramming ships are also good against naval myth units.

Juggernaut

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/juggernaut.jpg

The Juggernaut is the Greek siege type ship. It not only counters arrow ships but is also effective at taking out shoreline fortifications due to its long range and high attack.

Just a thought....

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 05:33

Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Stefan the Berserker
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
TigerVX
reconspy
Aymar de Bois Mauri

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Hagbard la Suede???
...

More imput people, please... :help:

Updated 15:20 - 10/17/04

TigerVX

10-17-2004, 05:49

Well, I've made these textures. What do you guys think about them?

Thracian Mercenaries

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/1462/ThraceMerc2.gif

Monk

10-17-2004, 06:15

Sign me up for gameplay testing...

Here's my suggestion On naval combat-

- the guys who are working on the realism mod at twc found that if you raised all ships attack rating by 50% and then lowered their defense ratings by 50%, it keeps both huge navies to a minimum and makes ships actually sinkable. I've been testing this, so far they seem to be right. Also creating a ship should take away from the population pool of the city it was created at, e.g if you make one bireme with a 40 sailor crew, then your population in the city should go down by 40. Again, this observed through the rtw realism mod. (i hadn't noticed it was any different on my own)..perhaps we could do something alone the same lines?

khelvan

10-17-2004, 07:45

Monk, raising the attack and lowering the defence was something I considered. Unfortunately it is difficult to do much with naval combat because it is so abstract. However, I think they are on the right track at least in that aspect of naval combat, as it needs to be more lethal. Unfortunately at the moment the naval battles, even if more lethal, would still have little meaning in the grand scheme of things because there is no real effective way to block off a nation's coast, for instance, from attack. If the zones of control could be increased so that navies could actually be used to defend a coastline, I would be much happier.

As to huge navies, I do not see this as a problem. Huge navies were just as important to the classical world as the ground forces, for empires that included coastlines. Carthage, Rome, the Greeks...all fought massive battles on the sea, many times as part of an overall war. Mass producing navies was a part of war, just as it was in more modern wars, and just as important.

TigerVX, those skins look great! I would get together with Amyar and decide on what units should be implemented first.

khelvan

10-17-2004, 08:36

This should help in determining which factions go where for the first step:

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/creativ/map.jpg

I have given Cirta, Lepae Magna, and Carthago Nova to the Carthaginians. This map looks slightly off, but is useful because it seems to have all the provinces listed.

reconspy

10-17-2004, 08:39

Yes, I'm with the "unit changes" crew.

Silver Rusher

10-17-2004, 09:37

I'll help with new factions, I am playing an RP based around this time and there are loads of factions which were not in Rome Total War.

Stefan the Berserker

10-17-2004, 14:17

I added these Text as a whole new Entry to the Textfile, in the Skirmish Menu I can select the new Unit with the Greek-Hoplite designation according to "dictionary greek_hoplite_elite". It's possible to select and use that Unit for Skirmish, and the can march in Battles. The Point that I don't understand is why the Game screws up if the Unit reaches the Enemy and starts fighting.

type comitati spearmen
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 15:40

Has anyone started listing the names of new/present Units in All of the Factions? Perhaps it would be good to figure out what units we are going to put into the game and have a list so we know what we need for each unit (Names, Stats, Skins, Build Time, Where they can be built etc...). This will probably really increase the rate of work on this because then we'll ahve a tangible result of work we have done and work which needs to be done.
I'm working on it. Need a couple of days to organize info. Stay tunned...

Steppe Merc

10-17-2004, 17:35

Great stuff Tiger. However, I can only see the Thracian pics...

ick_of_pick

10-17-2004, 19:42

Hi all, just come to offer some help if I can. I can't mod, but I can help alot with historical issues, weapon types and faction unit changes. I know most about Middle Eastern/ Greek/ Carthaginian stuff, so if there are any questions just post, and I'll do my best to help. Iv'e already created a unit list for the Palmyran kingdom and the Adiabene Assyrian Kingdom, and I can repost the info if it will ever be needed.

Ick

P.S. If any of you are familiar with the Warhammer Ancients system, I would suggest taking a look at it, It's way more accurate than Rome Total war is now. Also those pics are really professional looking, I'm very impressed!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:13

Well, I've made these textures. What do you guys think about them?
I like them!! :pleased: Good work. I specially like the Egyptian Phalanx (they could be the graphical depiction of an Egyptian militia phalanx) and the Thracian Mercenaires (much better than CA's). The Klerouchoi Egyptian Heavy Cavalry has some details that, IMHO, could be changed, like the Phyrigian helm and the beard (maybe shaved faces and the Thracian helm or Beotian helm - prefered by cav - although I know that will require 3d editing). Check this pics:

Early Ptolemaic 320BC-275BC (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_42a_figure_1.htm)

Later Ptolemaic 275BC-40BC (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_42b_figure_1.htm)

As for other very good sources of inspiration for the designs, everybody on the unit editing group should check (the last 3 ones are the best for graphics):

Oh here's a great link to a vast array of information dealing with just about anything. It's basically a link Tree:

Link (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/historical.html)

Here's one Notable one which deals quite in depth with Armaments at this time (mainly Roman):

LInk (http://www.redrampant.com/)

Examples:

Greek Helms (8) (http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/greekhelm.html)

Dacian Shields/Helms (4)/(4) (http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/daciashields.html)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:27

Sign me up for gameplay testing...
Done... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:28

Yes, I'm with the "unit changes" crew.
Done... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:44

I'll help with new factions, I am playing an RP based around this time and there are loads of factions which were not in Rome Total War.
Thank you dispensing your time with EB. I know you must be pretty busy with Citadel TW. Welcome... ~:wave:

Kaiser of Arabia

10-17-2004, 20:44

Er... sign me up for the guys that watch the mod with interest.

Good luck guys.
-Capo

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:50

Hi all, just come to offer some help if I can. I can't mod, but I can help alot with historical issues, weapon types and faction unit changes. I know most about Middle Eastern/ Greek/ Carthaginian stuff, so if there are any questions just post, and I'll do my best to help. Iv'e already created a unit list for the Palmyran kingdom and the Adiabene Assyrian Kingdom, and I can repost the info if it will ever be needed.
Sure. Post it in the EB thread at the Colosseum. That one is dedicated to Historical info. This one is dedicated to the technical part of the MOD.

P.S. If any of you are familiar with the Warhammer Ancients system, I would suggest taking a look at it, It's way more accurate than Rome Total war is now. Also those pics are really professional looking, I'm very impressed!
I'm not familiar with it. Can you explain or be more specific? Do you have a site for it?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 20:54

Er... sign me up for the guys that watch the mod with interest.

Good luck guys.
-Capo
Thanks, Capo... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-17-2004, 21:42

TigerVX

10-18-2004, 00:59

Okay, I fixed the SS's, you can check em out in the Colluseum thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 01:17

Okay, I fixed the SS's, you can check em out in the Colluseum thread.
Check post #46, here up above, for my oppinion.

Vercingetorix

10-18-2004, 01:18

I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference:

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/4696/Gallic-noblemen.th.jpg (http://img14.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img14&image=Gallic-noblemen.jpg)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 01:32

I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference:
Yes, it's perfectly alright. That is from an Osprey book, right? I believe this one:

Celtic Warrior 300BC-100AD (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1841761435/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-1391829-8555902#reader-link)

It's an excelellent reference.

Regarding the skinning of units, we must start distribuing skinning work amongst ourselves. A small post, like this one, is the best way not to duplicate work.

Steppe Merc

10-18-2004, 02:39

Another good one is the one that I posted pics from....
But how often did Celtic Nobles fight on foot? I though they were always either mounted or on chariots....

ick_of_pick

10-18-2004, 02:41

Warhammer Ancients is a set of rules that are used to re-create ancient/medieval battles using small painted pewter miniatures. The rulebook comes with lists of almost every army you can think of from pre-Sumerian times to Japanese Samurai times. It's very realistic and was written by historians and military professors not video game developers. It includes:

Egyptians: pre alexander, and after
Republican Romans
Post Marian Romans
Late Romans
Carthaginians
Greeks
Assyrians
Macedonians
Britons
Gauls
Celtic Spain
Germans
Parthians
Palmyrans
Asiatic Nomads (Scythians included)
Arabs
Alexander and Successors

There is more, but they don't apply to the RTW time period.

Each factions list has details on the military they used, units, weapons, armor and what that unit was called in that cultures language.
The name of the book is "warhammer armies of antiquity"

You can google it but I don't think you'll find any pictures of the inside of the book...

PSYCHO V

10-18-2004, 03:19

I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference..

Sounds great mate, can't wait to see what models you can come up with.

I do think we need to sort out a definitive list, else we'll get repetion / redundancy etc. So can we have a chat about the Gallic units before we get too far into the nitty gritty?

I believe we have two options:

1) Just mod existing units to be more factual / interesting
2) Rework the lot

Here’s a point to start from, my past recommendations. Feel free to rip these lists to shreds, make changes, give input, recommendations, etc etc etc. But I do think we need to come to an agreeance IMHO.

OPTION 1)

This is a fix to the existing Rome Total War

· Make the following unit changes
· Make the Gauls and Britons begin as allies or on very friendly terms.
· Make the Belgae in Gaul a very strong rebel group with Gallic horse, Skirmishers and Briton Swordsmen (as per mentioned)

GAULS:

A) Give all units (except peasants) a torque around their neck
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps261195.jpg

B) Give the ‘Warband’ a shield with a boss (centre bit) running it’s length and include some celtic designs.
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps179137.jpg

C) Change all round shields to have a similar boss as mentioned above, remove studs around edges, star burst patterns etc and include some celtic designs.

D) Give the ‘Swordsman’ a Gallic helmet, a long sleave shirt and shield with Celtic designs
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/NHM/Prehist/Collection/Images/Abb22.jpg
http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_products/th_sh054.jpg

E) Give the ‘Chosen Swordsman’ a Gallic boar helmet and a chain mail vest (with shoulder straps) over a long sleave shirt. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs. Note ‘C’ Give the shield a small band of black and white cheque pattern with two dots each side
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prilba2.jpg

F) Give the ‘Noble Cavalry’ a Gallic raven Helmet, Short sleave chain mail shirt over a long sleave shirt and cloak fastened at shoulder with broach. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs. Note ‘C’
http://www.lastsquare.com/MiniCatalog/Largefigs/lftmp-15.jpg

G) Make the Gallic ‘Druid’ an Infantry version of this guy with a long Gallic sword
http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/images/54mm_Heavy_Gallic_Cavalry_5.jpg

H) Make the ‘General’ an elaborate version of ‘F’ with maybe some wings on his helmet and remove the beard from the Forester Warband. Replace the unit flag with a boar standard, unit leader with an infantry version of 'F'. Add hornblower
http://arquebus.com/trad_90mm/JW90152.jpg

BRITONS:

I) Repeat ‘A’ and ‘B’

J) Give the ‘Swordsman’ a Briton helmet (with small cheek guards) and shield (sides of which would be coloured)
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/PeakedHelmet1.JPG
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/PeakedHelmet2.JPG
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps233381.jpg

K) Give the ‘Chosen Swordsman’ a Thames styled helmet, elaborate shield, long sleave shirt and cloak fixed at the shoulder with a broach. Keep the mow but remove the beard and strappings around lower legs.
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/HornedHelmet.JPG
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/BatterseaShield.JPG

L) Dress the ‘Light Charioteers’ more like this
http://www.histomin.com/lineevd/mpevcg35.jpg

M) Dress the Heavy Charioteers the same as the Rider (non-driver) above but give the Rider a vest of chain mail, a cloak fastened at the shoulder by a broach and a shield as in ‘K’

N) Give the ‘Druid’ a War Hammer and small square buckler / shield

O) Make the ‘General’ an elaborate version of ‘K’ (though he’ll be mounted) with some elaborate bronze plate armour. Replace unit standard with stag horn standard, Unit leader with infantry version of Rider 'M'. Add hornblower

GERMANS:

P) Give the ‘Warband’ / phalanx a hexagonal shield. Same as the ‘Naked Fanatics’ but remove the celtic designs and replace with the sun burst motif used by the original ‘Chosen Swordsmen’; and shorten their spears a little.
http://members.aol.com/hubhobbie/kcelt1.JPG

Q) Give the ‘Night Raiders’ a beard, remove the Gallic plats and give them a pony tail.

R) Give the ‘Chosen Axeman’ a fur slung around their shoulders.

OPTION 2)

This is for our ultimate historical mod and involves additions of completely new units, changing hiring methods, map mods, fortification mods etc

· Add Gergovia as an Oppida (if unable, give stone walls) and make rebel
. Add Bibracte as an Oppida (if unable, give stone walls)
· Add the following region specific Gallic troops
. Give all units a leader dressed like the Arverni but with sword, this helmet in bronze and black plum
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prilba1.jpg
. Change standard to be a golden / Bronze Boar
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prase.jpg
. Change standard bearer to Southern Warband with Boar helmet.
. Add Carnyx blower with same attire.

THE GAUL FACTION

LIGHT INFANTRY

Senone Slingers : (Light Infantry)

Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Dubious Morale under heavy casualties
(Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back).
These adept skirmishers can hurl lead slugs at high speed over good distances. They are particularly good at attacking lightly armed troops. They can fight with sword if forced, but they prove to be ineffective in hand-to-hand warfare.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

Aquitanian Archers: (Light Infantry)

Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Low Morale
(Shorter darker hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers in ‘faction colours’ and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield). These troops come from the smaller, more passive tribes of Southern Gaul. Good at showering the enemy with archery fire, they will soon run if engaged in hand to hand fighting.
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)

Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’): (Light Infantry)

Extremely Impetuous, Extremely Undisciplined, Good Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good Attack
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
The ‘Bodvoritus’ tend to come from the Brannovice (‘frenzied ones’) tribe. The Brannovice were a client to the Aedui and were renown for their berserk behaviour in battle. They would drink a ‘magical’ potion before entering battle which gave them ‘special’ courage, stamina and protection from the pain of wounds. Once worked up into a frenzy, they would often fight in a similar fashion as the Picts some centuries later. Working in pairs, one would throw themselves on the enemy’s weapon whilst the other struck the encumbered down.
(Can be raised from central Transalpine Gaul)

MEDIUM INFANTRY

Southern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield with Celtic swirl design)
The Southern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Northern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They throw their spears before charging home with sword and have a good initial assault.
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)

Northern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield)
The Northern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Southern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears before charging home with sword. Sapping Ability
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’): (Medium Infantry)

Disciplined, Average Valour, Dubious Morale, more easily achieve ambushes, receive bonus to attack when directly from ships or at night.
(Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides).
The Veneti (‘Clansmen’) were a maritime tribe that traded and raided the oceans centuries before the first Vikings. They were adept guerrilla fighters who excelled in using the terrain to their advantage / sneaking up on their enemies. They also excel at ambushes, night and amphibious operations.
(Can be raised from Veneti Territory)

Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Very High Valour, Good Stamina, Very High Morale, Good Attack
(Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
The ‘Dubi Dusios’ are Elite Celtiberian warriors from Spain. They are chosen from among the ranks for their skill, fitness and bravery in battle. Though rough and ready, these Celtiberians are fierce ferocious fighters that can hold their own against almost any opposition.
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)

HEAVY INFANTRY

Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Heavy Infantry)

Good Discipline, Low Valour, Easily Fatigued, Good Morale
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak in ‘faction colours’ gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield).
The Arverni (‘Superior Ones’) are a large powerful tribe who have become extremely wealthy through trade with the Mediterraean. As such, they have a large body of nobility who are afforded the time and wealth to prepare well for battle.
The Arverni Arjos sport the finest equipment available and train daily in its use. They can form a testudo or shield wall quickly and prove to be sturdy force in any line of battle.
(Can be raised from Arverni Territory post Marian reforms)
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltNob_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors): (Elite Heavy Infantry)

High Valour, High Morale, Good attack, Cause Fear against other Gallic units, Large Additional Valour and Morale Bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield).
These ‘Cincetos’ are Elite fighters who hail from the land of the Carnutes, the heart of the Druidic religion in Gaul. As Druids, they invoke the Gallic god Cernunnos (‘The Horned One’ hence the helmets) to give them courage in battle. Trained in the Druidic schools and Carnute military colleges, they are extremely expensive to raise but are fanatical volunteers that will fight to the death, especially against non-Celtic factions. [These units become slightly cheaper if at war with non-Celtic invaders.]
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)

CAVALRY

Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’): (Medium Cavalry)
Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Morale
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic in ‘faction colours’ over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield with cheque pattern, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
The Gallic ‘Leuce Epos’ constitute the bulk of Gallic cavalry. The term ‘Leuce’ was applied more due to their swiftness of foot than their equipment. Able to either throw or thrust with spears before engaging with sword, they form an effective mobile force.
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)

Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’): (Heavy Cavalry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Excellent Attack
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield).
The ‘Brihentin’ are chosen from among the tribe’s nobility for their prowess in battle. These troops are well armed and experienced in battle. They are trained to couch their lance before closing with their long swords. Extremely expensive to raise, they prove invaluable to any astute War-chief.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)

MERCENARIES

Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’): (Elite Light / Mercenary Infantry)

Impetuous, High valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Very Good Attack, Long spear throwing range.
(Iron Helmet with boar crest and black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets, Large well built and naked but for a small flap in ‘faction colours’ at front and back of groin (for the kiddies)).
These are a group of elite warriors that have left their tribal allegiances to sell their services to the highest bidder. They believe their nakedness allows their fighting mogo to flow.
(Can be hired at great cost from anywhere that has a Gallic shrine)

Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’): (Elite Medium / Mercenary Infantry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Stamina, Average Morale
(Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield)
The Ordocorii come from the Ordovices (‘Those that fight with hammers’), a Briton tribe situated on the Western coast of the Isle (Wales). They lack central government and tend to seek fortune where-ever they may find it, willingly crossing the channel to offer their services to their Gallic cousins.
They invoke the Celtic god Sucellus (‘Hammer god’) prior battle and tend to possess an acute hatred of Rome.
(Can be hired at great cost from any Gallic coastal province)

Mori Gaesum (‘Sea of Spears’): (Elite Heavy / Mercenary Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Very Good Morale
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, Pikes, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges)
The ‘Mori Gaesum’ are mercenaries raised from among the Helvetii (Swiss). These Helvetians were very well organised into units with good leadership and discipline. Of all the Gauls, they were the most experienced and effective in the employment of the Phalanx. Much like other Gallic tribes that use close formation tactics, they will drop their spears once the enemy formation is broken and charge home with the sword.
(Can be hired at great cost from Helvetii territory)
http://www.r-kproductions.com/products/P54133.jpg

Teutones: (Elite Light / Mercenary Cavalry)

Disciplined, Excellent Valour, Good Stamina, Excellent Morale
(Hair dyed red and in pony tail, full beard, naked chest, short cloak, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, small square shield)
The Teutones are German Mercenaries willing to cross the Rhine and sell their blood for gold and glory. Equipped with sturdy Gallic mounts, they are fast and ferocious and can often outfight more heavier armed opponents.
(Can be hire at great cost from German territory)

Thoughts anyone? :book:

ick_of_pick

10-18-2004, 07:27

PSYCHO V

10-18-2004, 08:47

Thats alot of detail for the Celtic/Germanic Peoples, and I'm impressed by the names being in the appropritate language. However, isn't the reason they were labeled "barbarians" by the Romans because Celtic/Briton/Germanic armies were generally just a mass of untrained, undisciplined, unmotivated, poorly equiped villagers who would turn and run from combat if thier initial mass-charge was stopped? Besides, according to Roman records, less than 1/5th of the army actually had armor, and even less than that had horses.

There were those select few who were considrered fanatical warriors, and would work themselves into a berserker frenzy, but even they would break and run if things got bad. I personally find the Celts to be very interseting culture to study, but they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians.

Ick.

:book: arr...no

1) “barbarians”. For starters the Britons, Gauls and Germans all fought and equipped themselves differently. They were labelled Barbarians because they didn’t speak Greek or adopt Roman Culture. Rather ethno centric way of looking at the world imho. Like England calling America barbaric or vis versa.

2) “Training”. There was a great deal of variation of quality between tribes but generally they were all trained to a degree. Even the Stone Age German Fennians were trained by their tribe to use the spear and bow. Some were very well trained in weapon use, tactics and formations. The Chatii and Helvetii excelled at the phalanx, the Arverni and Allobroges renown for their heavy infantry shield formations, etc etc

3) “Discipline”. There are numerous accounts of both Celts and Germans holding their lines and fighting to the last man. It’s worth mentioning that all men are human and can give up… even the ‘elite’ Spartans. The Celts were just as human but it seems the Romans in particular made light of those times in which the Celts run from battle. Whilst the Romans concede defeat at the hands of a ‘worthy foe’ the semi-cultured Carthaginians, the Celts and Germans are derided at every opportunity unless, like in a few cases with Caesar, they are grudgingly conceded notable qualities when if suits the political ends. Very little is said of the 100’s of 1,000’s of Romans that lost their lives under the blades of the Germans, the Gauls, the Celtiberians. Huge defeats, as big in casualties as Cannae.

4) “Unmotivated”. Hmm, I have to say your not exhibiting much understanding of these ancient cultures.

5) “Poorly equipped villagers”. Well some documents I’ve read place the Arverni / Allobroge army mid 2nd century had a majority of their troops in chain mail. They were extremely well led, (with unit commanders) and equipped. The problem was that they never got to strike a blow in all their fine array. The Romans charged them with Elephants and having never seen the beasts before, and been told of these fearful creatures by their ancestors that fought Hannibal a generation before..they fled in terror.

6) “Who would turn and run from combat if their initial mass-charge was stopped”. Again even Caesar’s well read account mentions Celts fighting to the last man.

7) “they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians”. And all those defeats were because ? The Greeks got trounced by the Celts, the Carthaginians had a very hard time and made more progress through diplomacy, the Romans threw huge resources and manpower into any conflict and only then managed to finally destroy the Celts by dividing and conquering. They never conquered the Germans.

my2bob ~;)

Ranika

10-18-2004, 08:59

The barbarians were exceptionally well motivated compared to most of the people of the ancient world. While religion was a motivator for everyone, the religions of Celts and Germans were especially invigorating, not to mention an intense 'culture pride' that made them loathe outside invaders, much of the time.

The Gauls, particularly, had a professional concept of warfare, with professional soldiers, that were quite capable of obliterating Roman and Greek armies (hence how Gaul sacked Rome). Julius conquered Gaul by encouraging the infighting and getting the professionals killed, and fighting against hastily assembled levies, and the remnants of professional soldiers.

You also have to realize 'Roman accounts' of any barbarian are more than a little skewed, often to make their enemies seem less terrible. They were often quite offended by the cultures of the northern people, and, as such, were rather loathe to say anything 'nice' about them, although that happened from time to time.

The most 'glowing' presentation of a barbarian in the mediterranean cultures is probably the statue of 'The Dying Gaul'. The Gaul is purposely made to look without fear, because it was noted that Gauls, and other barbarian tribes, didn't tend to face death with fear, due to the aforementioned religious practices. The accomplishments of the Celts and Germans aren't often recorded though, as niether wrote a great deal. The Celts (not sure about the Germans), actually had a religious reason not to, thinking things were too precious to be written down, but there were many who COULD write, often in Greek or Latin. But, Celtic culture was considered too precious to be written down usually, and the memory was highly valued, so it was expected that events should be commited to memory, not written down. However, their known accomplishments include sacking Rome (both Celts and Germans), and that's the important one to take into consideration. If barbarian armies were so easily defeated, there is no concievable way they could've done that, regardless of numbers (note Boudicca's defeat, huge numbers against the legion isn't going to win everything for you, but Boudicca's 'army' WAS generally untrained peasants who followed her out of a type of proto-nationalism).

reconspy

10-18-2004, 14:03

Hey all, since Vercingetorix's release of the CAS Editor today, I've started working on the units posted by PSCYHO V.

Here is the first version of Arverni Arjos. The cloak will be hard to do, but I will attempt it. The golden embroidery on the bottom of the tunic is also hard to do as there isn't much room for that kind of detail. There are still some minor details I have to work out. Any comments or criticisms are appreciated.

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverniarjos.jpg

I have a torc!
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_torc.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front2.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_shield.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_back.jpg

Dead Moroz

10-18-2004, 15:44

Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 16:15

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 16:30

Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?
He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

Fantastic skinning, reconspy!!! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 16:31

Sounds great mate, can't wait to see what models you can come up with.

I do think we need to sort out a definitive list, else we'll get repetion / redundancy etc. So can we have a chat about the Gallic units before we get too far into the nitty gritty?
I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!

I believe we have two options:

1) Just mod existing units to be more factual / interesting
2) Rework the lot
For now we can only re-skin units. And we'll do the "barbarian" units first.

Here’s a point to start from, my past recommendations. Feel free to rip these lists to shreds, make changes, give input, recommendations, etc etc etc. But I do think we need to come to an agreeance IMHO.

Thoughts anyone? :book:
Yes. Don't post Historical info here. The EB thread at the Colosseum is for that purpose. Here only technical discussion. OK?

Dead Moroz

10-18-2004, 16:55

He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-18-2004, 17:13

I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!
Sorry!!! I'm an idiot!!! :wall:

I've been pretty busy and didn't know that Vercingetorix had released the script!!! I'm going to try it as we speak!!! :smile:

Vercingetorix

10-18-2004, 21:05

Looking good reconspy, apparently you are much farther then I am on the model so I think it would be best if I worked on a different one so we aren't competing or doing the same thing. I hope you include the sun medalion ~:)

khelvan

10-18-2004, 21:12

Ok, things are shaping up, this looks good.

First, I have made several changes to gameplay, and I am looking for people willing to test them. Please contact me via PM if you are interested and I'll get you the relevant files.

Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.

I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.

Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.

Stormy

10-18-2004, 21:57

Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter ~;)

Here is 2 good links that can provide some good info for some of the departments some of the modders are working on.

Livius - Articles in ancient history (http://www.livius.org/home.html)

Kessler - History files (http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/HistoryFiles.htm)

Stormy

10-18-2004, 22:02

I got the pm. Sign me up for testing :bow:

Steppe Merc

10-18-2004, 23:51

I'll gladly do beta testing etc.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 01:01

Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter ~;)
Hey, Stormy! You can post at this thread. Everyone can. There is no problem. But varied info is better if concentrated in each specific thread. It was getting too confusing. :confused:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 01:09

Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Stefan the Berserker
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
TigerVX
reconspy
Aymar de Bois Mauri

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Stefan the Berserker
PSYCHO
PSYCHO V (are these two avatars the same person??? :confused: as they both say "Australia" and they post a lot of info about Celts!! :help: I'm getting sooooo confused... :confused: )
Stormy
chemchok
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
...

More imput people, please... :help:

Updated 17:50 - 10/19/04

ick_of_pick

10-19-2004, 01:10

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 01:17

Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.
Well, I'm up to my neck in work with the list me and TK are making for all the units being modified and the new ones, as well as trying to coordinate the remaining Historical info, but I'll try.

I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.
Hey, you Historians!!! Heard that? Get to work, guys!!! :help:

Just for the record, I' will alter and add the new Iberian units, as well as the Iberian faction descriptions.

Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.
I would like to help, but I'm not familiar with it.

chemchok

10-19-2004, 03:15

Alright, sign me up to help out. My programming skills are practically non-existent but I'd be happy to help out with the unit descriptions, family names, faction history, etc. I don't really have any preferences, so just tell me what's needed at the moment.

Edit: Oh, and playtesting doesn't sound too bad either.

Stormy

10-19-2004, 04:08

Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.

PSYCHO V

10-19-2004, 06:36

I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!

:embarassed: I've been reprehended. Sorry all. ~:)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

RECONSPY ! you bloody legend !

:charge: :charge: :charge:

Very Very nice work mate! ..and we have our first Celt with a TORC !!

A few minor suggestions if possible:

* make the torc bigger. I know the pic plays it down a bit but from archeological evidence we know they were very conspicuous.

* Great Helm but squaring off the cheek guards would help a bit

* Love the cloak, again great job there. Prob needs a nice bronze / golden broach on that shoulder if poss. and a little longer.

* 'Flesh out' the pants and shirt so as not to appear so tight

* Give short boots

* Golden braclets

* make the Shield larger

* Maybe make the pants a dark green tartan pattern to give a little faction colour.

* Would be good if possible, to reduce the flare of the shirt etc below the belt so that it's closer to the leg.

* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com) ~D

Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vercingetrix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible. Any chance you could work on the 'Bodubatae' ? Rather difficult unit that may need your special attention?

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)The most challenging of the Gallic units would be the Could you start on the

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be. Can you add units to the units build lists yet?

Cheers

khelvan

10-19-2004, 06:54

I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all. All I need are the unit stats/info and the required files. Since I'm currently toying with the game systems, I don't have time to work with you guys on the unit stats, so I trust you guys to balance them out for now.

I should have a link to a .zip with the work I have done sent to those who have expressed interest in beta testing tonight or tomorrow.

Also, check out this thread:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37945

If that gets up and running, everyone benefits, as the amount of information we'll be able to find there will be huge.

Edit: I should add that units have sounds and such associated with them, I assume if you haven't made new ones you'll need to pick existing sounds to use.

PSYCHO V

10-19-2004, 07:14

I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all.

Brilliant. You couldn't put together a quick list of comparative stats for say the Gauls, Brits, Germans, Romans and Greeks? It would give a starting point.

Is it possible to mod the Arverni to enable a phalanx ability with their current spears or do you have to then give them the very long pikes for that? If so, can we give them a Celtic longsword as a secondary weapon that they use when not in phalanx and charge?

khelvan

10-19-2004, 08:24

Please take a look at the other Europa Barbarorum thread, in the Colosseum, for information on the units - I posted a link there to someone's unit stat collection online. Transcribing the info would be quite the difficult thing to do, with so much data.

As to your question about the unit behavior, I am not sure but I believe that you need the long pikes to utilize the phalanx. On the second weapon, to be honest I do not know. I know that the unit can have two melee weapons, but I have no idea how their use is determined. I suggest finding a unit with two melee weapons, digging through export_unit.txt to see what the data looks like, and watch it fight in the game. That is the best I can tell you, for now.

Mr Frost

10-19-2004, 10:30

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the Gallic, Briton, and Germanic peoples were poor warriors, I'm saying they were ineffective because of a lack of organization and irregular training. The Romans would drill thier troops constantly, and they were taught how to work together as an army. They had much more balance in terms of combined arms, and would respond to orders and change in battlefield tactics much more efficiently than the Gauls ever could. If your talking about individual fighting prowess, then yes, I would agree that a single Celt or German would most likely defeat a single legionnaire in one-on-one combat, seeing as how they trained from youth to be outstanding individual fighters. The reason I call them ineffective is because of the big picture. They were conquered. It is a definite fact that the Celts did win many battles against the Romans, Boudiccas rebellion alone killed about 70,000 Roman Soldiers. However, consider the fact that the Roman army, at it's maximum number of about 500,000 men, spread out across the whole empire managed to defeat and drive out a Gallic population of over 6,000,000. That shows how hopeless they were against the legions on open ground. There are certain situations, such as Teutoburg Forest, where the "Barbarians" defeated the Romans by luring them into a devastating ambush in terrain the Legions articulated poorly in, but these are few, and were not major setbacks for the Romans. I'm a big fan of Celtic culture and history, so don't think I'm some sort of biased maniac. But history shows results, and the Romans pretty much out performed the Celts in terms of overall martial ability.

Ick

Historically , the best that most societies can manage in way of producing professional soldiers is about 10 percent of their total population and that is only in war {unsustainable} and the average quality of soldier is usually lower than would normally be the case {not every man makes a good soldier , most will always be mediocre fighters simply because they don't have the natural tallent to build on} .

The Gauls had been through some very costly civil wars and a great number of their professional warriors were already dead when Ceasar set out to conquer them , and they did not unite {or even try too , the civil wars were still raging} until it was far too late .
Most of Vetorngetorix army was untrained "patriots" , farmers etc . They probably got in the way more than they helped . Also , many groups in that army {an other such "scratch forces" feilded} did not work well together {they had been killing each other for many years now in civil war after all} which made matters worse .

6 million people who are busy fighting each other and have lost much of their best fighting power in those civil wars isn't much to conquer when you have an empire of several tens of millions behind you that is quite stable and wealthy !
Note how quickly Germany conquered France , Belgium , Poland , The Netherlands , Norway etc in WWII ... Rome conquering a divided people whom were already badly attrited and a mere fraction of Romes population and wealth doesn't make those Celts backwards nor their armies {as they were before their coalition of tribes broke apart in civil war} weak or disorganised .
The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost .

Had Gaul not been torn by civil conflict , they would have not only soundly beat Caesars' forces , but likely have invaded Roman territory with great success . At their best , they were more powerful than most people realise by far these days .

You don't seem to understand just what a warrior society can produce in way of fighting forces .
Consider that the Maoris who were stone age tribesmen and had far fewer numbers that the Gauls had when Caesar attacked managed to force the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires {whom were basically the model Britain patterned their troops on} to fight three separate wars {and Britain nearly gave up at one point !} and did so well that their language is taught to all New Zealand children in schools today .
That was stone age tribesmen often wiping the floor with British riflemen ! That is what a "barbarian" warrior society can do when it is at its' best !

TenkiSoratoti_

10-19-2004, 16:20

The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost.

Britain with-drew from France because Germany attacked by surprise. The Blitzkrieg Hitler unleashed was rumbling forward with unstoppable force. Even with the skill of the British soldier and his superior training in combat, they could not stop the overwhelming force of a 6 year prepared merciless killing machine.

the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires

Britain modelled her army's on the Roman Legions? I thought everyone did :rolleyes2:

How can you generalise with the Maori War? It wasn't big enough and the Imperial troops were forced to fight un-conventionally :rolleyes2:

I seriously cannot understand why everyone picks on the British Army when it is arguably the most successful fighting machine on this planet. Pick on other armies, I know quite a few that you could quite happily base your examples on.

SaFe

10-19-2004, 17:20

Hello@all,

i'm looking forward to this great mod and i want to give you support.
My english isn't the best, but i've took my history exam in germanic history during roman times.So, if you need some input or information i'm more than happy to help.

Greetings from Ladenburg(b.t.w. a roman castell in former times)

P.S.
Hey, just recognized the right place to post this.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 17:45

Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.
I'm still deciding if it is worth it to make a Lusitanii faction. For sure there will be four new Lusitanian units (I'll mod them), but the feasability of a weak faction is in question. A probable solution will be to include them in a reworked Iberian faction (4 new Lusitanii units + 5 new Celtiberian units, as well as some reworked Iberian units). No Iberian Bullshite Warriors!!! ~:pissed:

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 18:03

:embarassed: I've been reprehended. Sorry all. ~:)
Don't get offended. Nothing personal. But we need to separate specific info. The EB thread at the Colosseum was getting extremelly confusing. This info separation makes it more approachable.

* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com) ~D
Eager, hey? :wink:

Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?
If you're capable with PSP, sure. What's your proficiency with it?

BTW, is PSYCHO and PSYCHO V the same Australian guy? That is, YOU? :confused:

Vercingetorix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible.
Yeap. He is the MAN!!! :thumbsup:

Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be.
I've put you in the testing team.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 18:15

Brilliant. You couldn't put together a quick list of comparative stats for say the Gauls, Brits, Germans, Romans and Greeks? It would give a starting point.
The best for everyone taking care of units, is to get this:

RomeUnitGuide (PDF format) 1.2 (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/index.php?mod=108)

It's a list of all RTW units stats, in the release version. Continually being updated.

Hagbard la Suede

10-19-2004, 18:21

I know this might seem strange,but I'm a big lover of the european "barbarian" factions,and I think I'd be great to test them out too :)

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 18:37

Historically...

Britain...
Word of warning!!! ~:pissed:

This is not a thread for Historical discussion. If you want to do that, do it the Monastery. This a technical discussion thread. I shall not repeat myself!!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 18:41

I know this might seem strange,but I'm a big lover of the european "barbarian" factions,and I think I'd be great to test them out too :)
Added to the list.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-19-2004, 18:53

Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, acconding to you interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
...

Germanic:
Stefan the Berserker
reconspy
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Undetermined faction (PM me to coordinate):
TigerVX
...
...
...

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...

-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
...

Germanic:
Stefan the Berserker
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Undetermined faction (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
...

Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area

Updated 14:20 - 10/20/04

Salazar

10-19-2004, 20:30

I would like to Take part in Gameplay testing, as i don't know much about modding but would like to help in some Way :-)

PSYCHO V

10-19-2004, 21:31

Yes, same Psycho Aussie guy.

Well, began my first forays into skinning.

Played with those dam Night Raiders and got rid of those annoying Gallic traits. Can't do anything bout dem plats unfortunately.

http://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/NightRaiders.jpg

..and been playing with the Gallic Warband. Anyone have an easy solution for the torc?

http://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GaulWarband.jpg

:charge:

Steppe Merc

10-19-2004, 23:15

Right, I know a lot about Parthia, so I'll list the Parthian units, whether there good or not, and make suggestion changes/additions.
First off, all of them should be recoulered, loose the faction colours, and loose the pajamas.

Melee

1. Peasants - Not so sure. I hate peasants, so I can't comment on them in a non biased fashion.
2. Eastern Infanrt- Idea good, exicution bad. Loose the pajamas, and the hood. Stats are good, as their infantry sucked.
3. Hillmen- Pretty good. They did recruit many hill people, and they were better trained than their standard infantry. Mabye loose the hood.

This is pretty good. The parthians infantry sucked, and most were skirmershers, so this is represented pretty well.

Skirmeshers

1. Slingers - Has pajamaitis. Has too strong of an melee attack. These guys were either mercanaries or hillmen.
2. Archers: Pretty good. But all of the archer units need to have better range, as the Parthians and the Scythians had the best archers hand down.
3. Onagers No good. The Parthians were a steppe people, and really really were bad at seiging. Get rid of this unit.

We should also add peltlasts, which the Armenians and the Pontusians already have. Just give them that. Mabye we could have a mercanary archer unit, a hybrid like the Jannisaries (good ranged and good melee)

Mounted Archers
1. Horse Archers- Again, pajamitis. Loose the pajamas, give them no head gear and long flowing hair. Mabye their can be two units: One Iranian Nomad, and another a Lesser Parthian Noble.
2. Persian Cavalry: I guess this is like the Parthian Nobles? The need longer hair, and their outfits need to be not purple, and far more colorful.

We should add the Cataphract Archers, which Armenia already has. Also, split the Horse Archers into two or three catogories as suggested. The Lesser Parthian Noble could have better melee and better armour. Also, as another nomadic unit (which would be trainable, but cost more), can toss javilens.

Heavy Horse
1. Cataphracts: As for one type of Cataphracts, this is good. But they need to hold their kontus in two hands. However, there should be three different classes of Cataphracts: One that has the horses unarmored. These are poorer nobles, probably with scale armour for themselves. Another could be a fully armoured cataphract, but with scale armour on himself and his horse. This and the first class would make up the large number of cataphracts. The fewest number would be the current Cataphracts, as these represtent extremely rich nobles, and would be few in numbers.
2, Camel Cataphracts: Um... This might be okay if we just give the camel no armour, and mabye the rider scale armour.
3. War Elephants: These are fine, if they are Indian Elephants (which it's really easy to change it to).

Right, so there should be three classes of cataphracts, as opposed to the one right now.

Others
1. Early General: This is the javilen tossing, unarmoured early version. Um... I think that if we want to keep this guy in, give them armour on them... But I fail to see why a general would be decked out like this when he could be outfitted in a cataphract way. But whatever floats your boat.
2. Later General: These guys are Cataphracts. Mabye they could be like Siphie of the Porte, and in addition to their two handed kontus, also have compound bows? Either way, they would be the most expensive and current class of catas.

Mercanary units:
1. Bedoun Camel Archers: Not to sure.
2. Bedoun Warriors: Not to sure
3. Arab Cavalry: Not to sure.
I'm pretty sure most of the Parthian mercanaries were either light infantry, nomadic tribes from Iran, or Greeks. I don't think they would have recruited mercanary cavalry when their cavalry was far superior, but I'm not sure.

Right. Please nitpick, point out inaccuracies, point out impossibilities, and make your own suggestions.

Stormy

10-19-2004, 23:40

Good looking skins boys! its on the right path :charge:

Parthia needs help. I don't really like their faction color at all. It is like a hot pink/purple color hehe.

I agree with merc all the way. Merc does have many parthian pictures by Angus Mcbride that can be of some help. ~;) I will like to see those parthians with the round hat they have in Men-at-Arms * 175

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-20-2004, 00:57

I would like to Take part in Gameplay testing, as i don't know much about modding but would like to help in some Way :-)
Added. Welcome... ~:wave:

ick_of_pick

10-20-2004, 01:19

I was not aware that the Gallic peoples had been in a civil war prior to the expansion of Caesars imperialism. This clarifies a lot for me and I will defenitely do a little more research on both sides of an argument before making a solid stand. Oh well, all the more to read about!

Aymar, I'm going to scan the army lists you asked for, because there is too much info for me to type. It should be done pretty soon though.

Ick

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-20-2004, 01:32

Yes, same Psycho Aussie guy.
Thanks!!! That solves a bit my confusion!!! BTW, why the two names? :thinking:

Well, began my first forays into skinning.

Played with those dam Night Raiders and got rid of those annoying Gallic traits. Can't do anything bout dem plats unfortunately.
Annoying Gallic traits? You mean the moustaches? This might sound stupid but, what do you mean by plats?

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-20-2004, 01:54

Right. Please nitpick, point out inaccuracies, point out impossibilities, and make your own suggestions.
HE!HE!HE! This is gonna be fun!!! :devil: ............................... :joker:

3. Onagers No good. The Parthians were a steppe people, and really really were bad at seiging. Get rid of this unit.
Then you won't be able to siege cities at all. Is that realistic? Were the Parthians that bad at sieging?

We should also add peltlasts, which the Armenians and the Pontusians already have. Just give them that. Mabye we could have a mercanary archer unit, a hybrid like the Jannisaries (good ranged and good melee)
Please, no invented units, ok?

As for the pajamas, we'll base ourselves in your posts at the EB Colosseum thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri

10-20-2004, 02:00

Aymar, I'm going to scan the army lists you asked for, because there is too much info for me to type. It should be done pretty soon though.
Great!!! Thanks!!! :thumbsup:

Vercingetorix

10-20-2004, 06:32

Psycho I made a torc tell me if it's any good and if you want it and if so what format to send it to you? (max or cas)

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/7072/torcs.th.jpg (http://img95.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img95&image=torcs.jpg)

PSYCHO V

10-20-2004, 07:34

Never cease to amaze mate! It's great to have your help.

Personally, I'd make the torcs a little conspicuous / larger / fatter / hang a little lower.. but great to see it done!! It's a pain in the a$$ to just skin them on and they look like sh8.

Ok, Lots of questions:

* Where are you up too and what are you working on? Been shadowing your every step both there and at the TWC. Your turning me into a stalker. :embarassed: Prob need to talk to recon as well.

* Are you planning on / have time to do, the majority of 3D work for the Gauls, Brits and Germans? Having never before done any 3D work, is it worth me delving in to give you a hand?

* I'd love to have it (torcs) but as mentioned, I haven't the 3D software (yet). Do I need the 3D stuff to use them? If so, do you want to knock out a warband unit and I’ll skin him for you.

* Minor point, but is it possible to have the duds gather at the ankles?

* Is it possible to replace the Gallic plats / braids with a pony tail for the German Night Raider?

Regards

Vercingetorix

10-20-2004, 07:50

Antalis::

10-20-2004, 08:01

Wow Vercingetorix you did a great job for the community with your 3D-max tool ~:cheers:

I have respect for such a great work and effort.

cheers:

Antalis

PSYCHO V

10-20-2004, 08:50

Currently I'm not working on anything, need an assignment =). Some people catch on to 3d quite quickly, I've seen people who have never used 3ds max make simple models and edit within days. Others take months, and it takes years to master it.

Sure just tell me what you want and i'll pump out a warband for you, as for the "plats" I'm not too familer with this term. I'll see what I can do about making a ponytail.

edit: yes I'm Paul. I was thinking we need some form of realtime communication, an IRC channel maybe? I'm often on msn (pauldls at hotmail dot com) if you have msn add me.

Well, you guessed it, haven't used IRC before either ~:) . I'll d/l it.

Thanks, that would be great if you could do a warband guy. Same changes as mentioned above. Torc down to collarbone, duds that tapper at the ankles, maybe the shield made a little longer.

I might give the 3d stuff a go too but probably focus on the skinning considering you (and others) are obviously proficient in it's use.

I’ve noticed that my edited TGAs are coming out around 100-200k. The originals were 82K from memory. Will this be a prob. I am saving them as 32bit?

I'd like to see the Gallic skirmisher unit go. Is there anyway we can give the Warband the ability to throw and thrust with spear but charge with sword?

If your looking for a project, and your willing to work with this material, I persoanlly think the the Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’) unit would be the coup de grace for Celtic modding

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’) : (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)

Either that, or see if you can remodel the standard bearer to carry a boar standard and be a similar model to the warband but with cloak (fastened on right and helmet) …and the unit commanders with Boar helmets and…

…but now I’m just getting carried away ~D

Ranika

10-20-2004, 09:17

For colors on Celtic units, there are specific coloring principles to apply. A general rule of thumb is that nobility (so, any 'elite' or 'superior' units, probably), use 'dark' colors, and non-nobles use 'light' colors. Dark blue and red, gold-yellow, black, and white (clearly not part of the rule), are used more by nobles. Light blue and red, gray, brown, and green was used for non-nobles. Mind you, this is only the Iberian-Gaelic color system, though it's noted in two places ('ll try and rummage them up) that Caledonians (and presumably other Britons) used a similar system, and the Gaels, being Iberian and Gaul in origin, used the Iberian system, but the Gauls presumably used a similar system (while not ALWAYS present, certain colors do