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khelvan
10-14-2004, 01:03
Greetings!

You have found the workplace for the development of our community mod, Europa Barbarorum. This RTW mod is intended to shape the world, units, and gameplay to be as realistic as possible.

This thread will be used to facilitate the technical aspects of creating the mod, from assigning tasks to status reports. If you are looking for our ongoing discussion regarding historical research, you can find it here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33417

Current status:

We have released v0.1 for internal alpha testing.

Cheers,

-khel

khelvan
10-14-2004, 01:30
Please allow me to kick off this party!

I am relatively new to the modding scene, having done only a bit of code work on Battlefield 1942, but I find I have a real passion for it, and for the numbers behind the game system. My primary focus has been on building and unit balance, the population growth and economic systems, and the battle system. I also have many references on the classical Romans, and to a smaller extent the Greeks, so I have been delving into that quite a bit.

I have a strong background in project management and so I would like to offer my services to assist us in coming to a common understanding of our goals, keep us all working toward those goals, and keep the community informed of our status.

From my experience playing with the code so far, I see the following areas which need leadership:

-campaign map/province/city changes
-faction name changes/new faction implementation
-unit changes/new unit implementation
-battle system changes
-naval battle changes
-economic/population model changes

Basically, while it makes sense to break up work based on different factions, for instance, someone is going to have to be in charge of bringing it all together, since these changes impact the same files.

In addition, we should think about how to go about creating and releasing the mod. I think everyone would agree that it makes sense to move in steps. I suggest that the first step should be to make changes to existing units and factions, and to make the best of what we were given, since work can be done on new factions and units while this is happening, and that work will be much more time consuming.

So, there is a lot to be done. I suggest we all post our skills and interests, pick some members for the positions of responsibility, and provide our suggestions on what portions you would like to see worked on first, so we can set some priorities.

As I said above, I volunteer to keep an eye on the goals, tasks, and status of the project. I can also continue my work on the population growth/economic side of things. I have some free time to spread around, if others have no interest in some of the other things I have been working on. Though I think it makes sense to spread the work out, so we can get things done in a timely matter.

I look forward to working with you all!

Cheers,

-khel

Vercingetorix
10-14-2004, 19:58
Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-14-2004, 23:41
Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.
Welcome, Vercingetorix!!! I'm honoured by the fact that you want to join our project.

As for what I'll do:

-3d unit changes (skinning and modelling - beware, I'm slow at it).
-Coordinating info about unit changes, specific to the units needing alteration.
-Coordinating Historical info (in the other thread).

Steppe Merc
10-15-2004, 00:40
Well, I'm horrible at the modding, very slow and I get distracted easily. Mabye we can make a list of units that:
a. Are fine as they are (Romans)
b. Ok, but need a few touches. (I think the Greeks, right?)
c. Very sad, but salvagable if need be. These need to be totally reskinned (aka all shirtless barbarians, the pajama Parthians, etc)
d. These units must be taken out, and everyone must forget that they ever existed (Screaming women, breast cup Amazons, etc.)
e. New units that should be added.

khelvan
10-15-2004, 00:56
Sounds good, Steppe Merc. The first step, in my opinion, is to get people in charge of particular areas of the mod. For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.

PSYCHO V
10-15-2004, 07:26
Good job khelvan, warm welcome Vercingetrix!

Ok,for myself:

Interest in order of preference:

1) Gauls / Celtiberians
2) Britons
3) Germans
4) Iberians

Can offer research and commentary. I'll be picking up photoshop in a week so will try my hand at skinning. Never attempted modding before but pretty proficient with PS. Hopefully with some help on the tech side from you blokes I'll be able to help ~D


I think it's important to provide a stable product. We need to build the trust, repour with the community. Too many mods suffer from errors etc. May I suggest that:

A) We should start with minor fixes (possibly re-doing the units) and work our way through.
B) Thoroughly test all changes for bugs

Question re units:

What do you guys think about generally keeping the same units as per current game and modding them to be more correct;

Or do you think we should just overhaul the whole unit structure from the outset?


my2bob

khelvan
10-15-2004, 09:41
My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.

I have actually been taking steps to do so, and would love some help in putting out something stable that includes a few key improvements.

My wish list for this included removing ahistorical units, rebalancing the factions, moving quite a few provinces to different factions, renaming several factions, rebalancing a few units, and making a few changes to the Roman tech tree. If someone wants to do some basic skinning to modify a few existing units to make some "new" ones, that would be great.

Things I've done so far (which may or may not be included in the above, depending on the folks we put in charge of the various tasks):

-Gave Carthage more gold, ships, and several provinces, as well as more aggressive AI
-Adjusted unit movement speed and kill speed
-Reduced population growth rate
-Increased requirements for Imperial Palace (i.e. for Marian reforms)

If this is the route we're going to take, with a small step at first, I really need to sit down and chat with someone who understands better than I do with my limited reading how ancient combat played out, and how we can best manipulate the system to represent it. Both ground and naval combat can be tweaked. We also need to collect a list of which provinces should go to which factions, which units need to go and which that stay need to be tweaked, and anything else that can make the existing factions/units/provinces/battles look more historical.

Many things that you would want to tweak, can be tweaked. If you think something could be changed, ask - you would be surprised what we can change. We could add names to a family tree, for instance.

New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.

The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)

-khel

Stefan the Berserker
10-15-2004, 20:19
I'll see what I can do, as I bought the Game yesterday I have no real insight how what can be changed...

Initially I would rather say that the Barbarian Units are strangely weak and the Borders are wrong:

- Germania Superior is Gaulish in 260 B.C.
- Belgae should be Rebel, how sould it be British?

For further things I'll first tryout for myself what's possible...

Steppe Merc
10-16-2004, 02:49
Huge problem that I noted: mercanaries need to be totally different units. So you can't have a Gaul mercanary unit unless you create a whole new unit that's specifically a mercanary called Gaul Mercanary or some such. And since there is a unit cap (I think), we either need to find a way around this or have units that are normally mercs trainable.

khelvan
10-16-2004, 05:06
Not true - I was able to add "barb cavalry dacian" units to Numidia by tacking on a single line in the North Africa section of the mercenaries file. Granted, the unit had the "grey peasant" unit card, but it was still hireable as a mercenary in that area without creating a different unit.

Oleander Ardens
10-16-2004, 15:10
The Economy section would suit me well, as I study it as well as History. I researched most European factions, especially the Germans and Celts and the Scythians and Sarmantians for EB with Angadil. I also could advise about the missile weapons and balance them. I have only limited mod-experience, but I usually learn very fast when I focus on something.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


For fast changes:

I would outright remove the Gaul Forester and the Chosen Archer Warband for the Germans and give them instead the "Archer Warband". The Gauls should get a Slinger, the Germans a Warband similar to the Britain and Gaul while having their Phalanx Warband only available at higher levels. No Axemen and Chosen Axemen for the Germans, instead a "Chosen Swordsmen"
No Warhounds.

This are just very small and very fast changes, but the gameplay would get far more historic as you can not rely on your superarchers and wardogs...

Cheers
OA

Hagbard la Suede
10-16-2004, 15:13
Uhm,removing the axemen?
And replace them with swordsmen?
I say give em a shirt instead.

Oleander Ardens
10-16-2004, 15:29
Well there are very very few findings of axes in germanic warrior graves, although in some regions the axe was more important than in others. Southern Sweden was surly on of this, and may even have been the originator of the throwing axe. I have seen a rockcarving of a Swedish "francisca"

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31982&highlight=franciska

Anyway a German unit with a sword is a must, the Axemen could be restricted the Scandinavian province..

Cheers
OA

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 17:07
For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.
OK. I'll take that job. Tomorrow, I'll put a list organized in topics like Steppe Merc proposed. Later this week, I'll start posting specific unit characteristics to be modified (including pics).

Mouzafphaerre has given us a very helpfull advice on organizing info and keep the MOD info from confusing us:

To post specific threads in the RTW/Modification forum for each area of modification. We can divide them under topics like:

-Text files (modding stats, balance and gameplay alterations...)
-Graphic files modification (all concerning unit, flags, colours, etc...)
-...
-...

Anyone care to comment? Maybe give your own proposals?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 17:16
Good job khelvan, warm welcome Vercingetrix!

Ok,for myself:

Interest in order of preference:

1) Gauls / Celtiberians
2) Britons
3) Germans
4) Iberians

Can offer research and commentary. I'll be picking up photoshop in a week so will try my hand at skinning. Never attempted modding before but pretty proficient with PS. Hopefully with some help on the tech side from you blokes I'll be able to help ~D
Don't worry. The proficiency with PSP is the most important aspect. The rest is just paying attention to DJ's Graphic Guides. Since I'll be involved with unit graphics, we can coordinate info and exchange ideas and doubts about the skinnning.


I think it's important to provide a stable product. We need to build the trust, repour with the community. Too many mods suffer from errors etc. May I suggest that:

A) We should start with minor fixes (possibly re-doing the units) and work our way through.
B) Thoroughly test all changes for bugs
Hey, PSYCHO V!!! ~:wave: I want to play the MOD and I hate bugs!! :wink: The stability won't be a problem, because we'll never release a version that is not bug free. As for the hard-coded issues, that will depend on CA patches.


Question re units:

What do you guys think about generally keeping the same units as per current game and modding them to be more correct;

Or do you think we should just overhaul the whole unit structure from the outset?
IMHO, baby stepps, please!! Jumping the gun will only make it harder to debugg.

Steppe Merc
10-16-2004, 18:25
Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 19:22
My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.
Agreed.


New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.
Agreed.


The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)
Have you heard him? Get to work, boys!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 20:16
I'll see what I can do, as I bought the Game yesterday I have no real insight how what can be changed...

Initially I would rather say that the Barbarian Units are strangely weak and the Borders are wrong:

- Germania Superior is Gaulish in 260 B.C.
- Belgae should be Rebel, how sould it be British?

For further things I'll first tryout for myself what's possible...
Great ot hear from you Stefan. We really need your imput. ~:wave:

About CA's decision to give Belgae to the Britons, I think it concerns the lack of provinces in the British Isles. The Britons wouln't be able to survive without Belgae. But you're right, Belgae should be rebel. The way to solve this problem is to make more. BKB has been doing it already. The Gaul-Germanic amounts to the same.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 21:19
Huge problem that I noted: mercanaries need to be totally different units. So you can't have a Gaul mercanary unit unless you create a whole new unit that's specifically a mercanary called Gaul Mercanary or some such. And since there is a unit cap (I think), we either need to find a way around this or have units that are normally mercs trainable.
Don't worry. In MTW, it was the same. Total maximum for RTW is 300 units. In RTW, there about 200, so there will be enough room for mercs.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 22:20
Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.
Mouzafphaerre mentioned that we should do preciselly that. The groups should be divided according to interests and working preferences.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-16-2004, 22:40
Here is a template regarding the interess groups. I've taken some liberties. Correct me, please. So far we have:

-Gameplay balancing, economical and strategical data, strategical map:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...

-Unit editing and implementation, 2d and 3d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
reconspy???
Steppe Merc???

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Stefan the Berserker???
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Steppe Merc???
Hagbard la Suede???
...
...


Help me complete this, regarding topics and volunteers... :help:

Stefan the Berserker
10-16-2004, 23:31
I tried to create a new Unit by adding this to export_descr_unit.txt:

type greek hoplite elite
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans

The Game started normally and I could even select the "Hoplite" for germanics in skirmish. When the Skirmish started they appeared, as wished with the Warguards-Model... they marched and change formation without any problem, but if they attack the game screws up... ~:confused:

khelvan
10-16-2004, 23:52
First, did you add a "new" unit or did you merely edit the unit that already exists with the same name?

Sorry, I should be more clear - did you add an entirely new entry into the text file, and you copied the greek names and all? Or did you just edit the existing entry so that the call for greek elite hoplites gives you units that look like warbands?

Because if you added a "new" unit with the same type and dictionary call I am surprised your game didn't CTD upon loading.

Also, add -show_err to the command line, load up the game, then exit once you get to the main menu. This should bring up an error message to let you know that there is a problem somewhere. Unfortunately you don't get the message if you let it crash, you have to exit yourself.

Steppe Merc
10-17-2004, 00:36
Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 01:33
Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...
OK. No problem. Testing and gameplay balance then.

The list has been changed to incorporate khelvan's suggestions:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens???
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

...
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Stefan the Berserker???
reconspy???

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

Colovion
...
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Hagbard la Suede???
...

More imput people, please... :help:



Updated 3:25 - 10/17/04

Colovion
10-17-2004, 02:21
Put me down for the Gameplay/Debugging. I don't know the first thing about actually doing the mods though - so the most I can do (right now) is just give input on the things being discussed.

Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

Ranika
10-17-2004, 02:22
I'd like to help, but not sure exactly what I'd do. I do know a lot of the indigenous names of Celtic cities in Gaul and Britain, and Hibernia (though, Tara is correct anyway). I know a lot of bits and pieces of things in the barbarian cultures, a good deal in the Celts, but there's already a lot of help for that, and only a few things bout the Germans. As far as technical aspects of the game go, I can't do much outside of stat editting. I could potentially skin, but I lack photoshop right now, so won't commit to that

If there is anyway I can help, sign me up for whatever, and I'll do what I can.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 03:00
Put me down for the Gameplay/Debugging. I don't know the first thing about actually doing the mods though - so the most I can do (right now) is just give input on the things being discussed.
Great. You've been added to the list.


Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?
khelvan knows it better than I. I've only got through the txt files recently, but it seems that the tweaks that we can do concern winning chances, cost, build time, preference of construction and money diverted to the navy by each faction.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 03:10
I'd like to help, but not sure exactly what I'd do. I do know a lot of the indigenous names of Celtic cities in Gaul and Britain, and Hibernia (though, Tara is correct anyway). I know a lot of bits and pieces of things in the barbarian cultures, a good deal in the Celts, but there's already a lot of help for that, and only a few things bout the Germans. As far as technical aspects of the game go, I can't do much outside of stat editting. I could potentially skin, but I lack photoshop right now, so won't commit to that

If there is anyway I can help, sign me up for whatever, and I'll do what I can.
You can still help about Historical info in the other thread. Here with deal with technical questions only. However, you can still volunteer to test the MOD and help stat editing in your category of choise. I presume it concerns units, right?

khelvan
10-17-2004, 03:41
Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

There are lots of naval changes I can think of. First, I know certain factions would have lighter, quicker ships than the triremes and other galleys. Second, I do not believe there was ever anything called a decere. Third, I know that the Romans and other factions used ships much larger than the basic biremes and triremes, though I can only find names for them like "six," "eight," "sixteen," and so on, referring to the rowing configuration somehow. Connolly, for one, has much information about this. Fourth, I believe, from the accounts I have read in Connolly et al, that lethality was much higher than it currently is.

So I was hoping to work with someone who knows more about the navies of the time than I do. I am just a novice regarding them, but I can see that things really have to change.

Regarding ship building times, these should actually be shorter, if anything. The Romans and Carthaginians, at least, could and did mass-produce ships numbering in the hundreds in just a month or two. Ships should be plentiful.

I would also like to extend the zones of control of ships if at all possible, so they are more effective on the seas. I would also consider tweaks to the naval speed on the strategic map, as well as ground speed on the strategic map - this, however, may be a question of gameplay vs. realism. I would expect ships, at least, to be able to travel much further than they do currently based on the timeframe of the turns, and perhaps ground units as well, but this may have very bad consequences in a turn-based game. We need to ponder this.

-khel

TigerVX
10-17-2004, 04:04
Hey, I've just been recruited to help with retexturing units. I got some work in the New Units file, namely new egyptian units. So I'll do whatever you guys want me to do, but I'll have a hard time editting animals, I prefer to edit men. Anyways, I'm gonna be helping out with textures (And POSSIBLEY, I need to get alot better at 3dsmax, 3D units in the future.)

Colovion
10-17-2004, 04:15
There are lots of naval changes I can think of. First, I know certain factions would have lighter, quicker ships than the triremes and other galleys. Second, I do not believe there was ever anything called a decere. Third, I know that the Romans and other factions used ships much larger than the basic biremes and triremes, though I can only find names for them like "six," "eight," "sixteen," and so on, referring to the rowing configuration somehow. Connolly, for one, has much information about this. Fourth, I believe, from the accounts I have read in Connolly et al, that lethality was much higher than it currently is.

So I was hoping to work with someone who knows more about the navies of the time than I do. I am just a novice regarding them, but I can see that things really have to change.

Regarding ship building times, these should actually be shorter, if anything. The Romans and Carthaginians, at least, could and did mass-produce ships numbering in the hundreds in just a month or two. Ships should be plentiful.

I would also like to extend the zones of control of ships if at all possible, so they are more effective on the seas. I would also consider tweaks to the naval speed on the strategic map, as well as ground speed on the strategic map - this, however, may be a question of gameplay vs. realism. I would expect ships, at least, to be able to travel much further than they do currently based on the timeframe of the turns, and perhaps ground units as well, but this may have very bad consequences in a turn-based game. We need to ponder this.

-khel

I agree with all of your points. I notice a lack of depth in the naval area especially in RTW than I did in MTW and your points would bring up many more intricacies in it. I also notice that they are pretty slow - but maybe that's because the land units can move just as quickly so it seems that it's poor. However, the turns are 6 months - so that movement isn't totally out of the question.

Has anyone started listing the names of new/present Units in All of the Factions? Perhaps it would be good to figure out what units we are going to put into the game and have a list so we know what we need for each unit (Names, Stats, Skins, Build Time, Where they can be built etc...). This will probably really increase the rate of work on this because then we'll ahve a tangible result of work we have done and work which needs to be done.

Colovion
10-17-2004, 04:20
Oh yeah:

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/

Age of Mythology incorporates a rock/paper/scissors device with their naval program. This may take a lot more time to put into the game and since the naval aspect is already pretty dumbed down as it is it might not be worth it. But just for ponderance sake:



Trireme

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/trireme.jpg

The Trireme is the Greek arrow type ship, and the most basic Greek naval unit. It counters ramming ships.

Pentekonter

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/pentekonter.jpg

The Pentekonter is the Greek ramming type ship, and counters siege ships. Ramming ships are also good against naval myth units.

Juggernaut

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units/greek/pix/juggernaut.jpg

The Juggernaut is the Greek siege type ship. It not only counters arrow ships but is also effective at taking out shoreline fortifications due to its long range and high attack.



Just a thought....

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 04:33
Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Stefan the Berserker
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
TigerVX
reconspy
Aymar de Bois Mauri

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Hagbard la Suede???
...

More imput people, please... :help:



Updated 15:20 - 10/17/04

TigerVX
10-17-2004, 04:49
Well, I've made these textures. What do you guys think about them?


Thracian Mercenaries

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/1462/ThraceMerc2.gif

Monk
10-17-2004, 05:15
Sign me up for gameplay testing...

Here's my suggestion On naval combat-

- the guys who are working on the realism mod at twc found that if you raised all ships attack rating by 50% and then lowered their defense ratings by 50%, it keeps both huge navies to a minimum and makes ships actually sinkable. I've been testing this, so far they seem to be right. Also creating a ship should take away from the population pool of the city it was created at, e.g if you make one bireme with a 40 sailor crew, then your population in the city should go down by 40. Again, this observed through the rtw realism mod. (i hadn't noticed it was any different on my own)..perhaps we could do something alone the same lines?

khelvan
10-17-2004, 06:45
Monk, raising the attack and lowering the defence was something I considered. Unfortunately it is difficult to do much with naval combat because it is so abstract. However, I think they are on the right track at least in that aspect of naval combat, as it needs to be more lethal. Unfortunately at the moment the naval battles, even if more lethal, would still have little meaning in the grand scheme of things because there is no real effective way to block off a nation's coast, for instance, from attack. If the zones of control could be increased so that navies could actually be used to defend a coastline, I would be much happier.

As to huge navies, I do not see this as a problem. Huge navies were just as important to the classical world as the ground forces, for empires that included coastlines. Carthage, Rome, the Greeks...all fought massive battles on the sea, many times as part of an overall war. Mass producing navies was a part of war, just as it was in more modern wars, and just as important.

TigerVX, those skins look great! I would get together with Amyar and decide on what units should be implemented first.

khelvan
10-17-2004, 07:36
This should help in determining which factions go where for the first step:

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/creativ/map.jpg

I have given Cirta, Lepae Magna, and Carthago Nova to the Carthaginians. This map looks slightly off, but is useful because it seems to have all the provinces listed.

reconspy
10-17-2004, 07:39
Yes, I'm with the "unit changes" crew.

Silver Rusher
10-17-2004, 08:37
I'll help with new factions, I am playing an RP based around this time and there are loads of factions which were not in Rome Total War.

Stefan the Berserker
10-17-2004, 13:17
I added these Text as a whole new Entry to the Textfile, in the Skirmish Menu I can select the new Unit with the Greek-Hoplite designation according to "dictionary greek_hoplite_elite". It's possible to select and use that Unit for Skirmish, and the can march in Battles. The Point that I don't understand is why the Game screws up if the Unit reaches the Enemy and starts fighting.

type comitati spearmen
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 14:40
Has anyone started listing the names of new/present Units in All of the Factions? Perhaps it would be good to figure out what units we are going to put into the game and have a list so we know what we need for each unit (Names, Stats, Skins, Build Time, Where they can be built etc...). This will probably really increase the rate of work on this because then we'll ahve a tangible result of work we have done and work which needs to be done.
I'm working on it. Need a couple of days to organize info. Stay tunned...

Steppe Merc
10-17-2004, 16:35
Great stuff Tiger. However, I can only see the Thracian pics...

ick_of_pick
10-17-2004, 18:42
Hi all, just come to offer some help if I can. I can't mod, but I can help alot with historical issues, weapon types and faction unit changes. I know most about Middle Eastern/ Greek/ Carthaginian stuff, so if there are any questions just post, and I'll do my best to help. Iv'e already created a unit list for the Palmyran kingdom and the Adiabene Assyrian Kingdom, and I can repost the info if it will ever be needed.

Ick

P.S. If any of you are familiar with the Warhammer Ancients system, I would suggest taking a look at it, It's way more accurate than Rome Total war is now. Also those pics are really professional looking, I'm very impressed!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:13
Well, I've made these textures. What do you guys think about them?
I like them!! :pleased: Good work. I specially like the Egyptian Phalanx (they could be the graphical depiction of an Egyptian militia phalanx) and the Thracian Mercenaires (much better than CA's). The Klerouchoi Egyptian Heavy Cavalry has some details that, IMHO, could be changed, like the Phyrigian helm and the beard (maybe shaved faces and the Thracian helm or Beotian helm - prefered by cav - although I know that will require 3d editing). Check this pics:

Early Ptolemaic 320BC-275BC (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_42a_figure_1.htm)

Later Ptolemaic 275BC-40BC (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_42b_figure_1.htm)

As for other very good sources of inspiration for the designs, everybody on the unit editing group should check (the last 3 ones are the best for graphics):


Oh here's a great link to a vast array of information dealing with just about anything. It's basically a link Tree:

Link (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/historical.html)

Here's one Notable one which deals quite in depth with Armaments at this time (mainly Roman):

LInk (http://www.redrampant.com/)

Examples:

Greek Helms (8) (http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/greekhelm.html)

Dacian Shields/Helms (4)/(4) (http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/daciashields.html)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:27
Sign me up for gameplay testing...
Done... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:28
Yes, I'm with the "unit changes" crew.
Done... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:44
I'll help with new factions, I am playing an RP based around this time and there are loads of factions which were not in Rome Total War.
Thank you dispensing your time with EB. I know you must be pretty busy with Citadel TW. Welcome... ~:wave:

Kaiser of Arabia
10-17-2004, 19:44
Er... sign me up for the guys that watch the mod with interest.


Good luck guys.
-Capo

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:50
Hi all, just come to offer some help if I can. I can't mod, but I can help alot with historical issues, weapon types and faction unit changes. I know most about Middle Eastern/ Greek/ Carthaginian stuff, so if there are any questions just post, and I'll do my best to help. Iv'e already created a unit list for the Palmyran kingdom and the Adiabene Assyrian Kingdom, and I can repost the info if it will ever be needed.
Sure. Post it in the EB thread at the Colosseum. That one is dedicated to Historical info. This one is dedicated to the technical part of the MOD.


P.S. If any of you are familiar with the Warhammer Ancients system, I would suggest taking a look at it, It's way more accurate than Rome Total war is now. Also those pics are really professional looking, I'm very impressed!
I'm not familiar with it. Can you explain or be more specific? Do you have a site for it?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 19:54
Er... sign me up for the guys that watch the mod with interest.


Good luck guys.
-Capo
Thanks, Capo... ~:wave:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-17-2004, 20:42
I added these Text as a whole new Entry to the Textfile, in the Skirmish Menu I can select the new Unit with the Greek-Hoplite designation according to "dictionary greek_hoplite_elite". It's possible to select and use that Unit for Skirmish, and the can march in Battles. The Point that I don't understand is why the Game screws up if the Unit reaches the Enemy and starts fighting.

type comitati spearmen
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans
Check this thread:

This unit seems to CTD the game when it gets into combat. Any ideas?? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38186)

It might help...

TigerVX
10-17-2004, 23:59
Okay, I fixed the SS's, you can check em out in the Colluseum thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 00:17
Okay, I fixed the SS's, you can check em out in the Colluseum thread.
Check post #46, here up above, for my oppinion.

Vercingetorix
10-18-2004, 00:18
I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference:

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/4696/Gallic-noblemen.th.jpg (http://img14.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img14&image=Gallic-noblemen.jpg)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 00:32
I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference:
Yes, it's perfectly alright. That is from an Osprey book, right? I believe this one:

Celtic Warrior 300BC-100AD (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1841761435/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-1391829-8555902#reader-link)

It's an excelellent reference.

Regarding the skinning of units, we must start distribuing skinning work amongst ourselves. A small post, like this one, is the best way not to duplicate work.

Steppe Merc
10-18-2004, 01:39
Another good one is the one that I posted pics from....
But how often did Celtic Nobles fight on foot? I though they were always either mounted or on chariots....

ick_of_pick
10-18-2004, 01:41
Warhammer Ancients is a set of rules that are used to re-create ancient/medieval battles using small painted pewter miniatures. The rulebook comes with lists of almost every army you can think of from pre-Sumerian times to Japanese Samurai times. It's very realistic and was written by historians and military professors not video game developers. It includes:

Egyptians: pre alexander, and after
Republican Romans
Post Marian Romans
Late Romans
Carthaginians
Greeks
Assyrians
Macedonians
Britons
Gauls
Celtic Spain
Germans
Parthians
Palmyrans
Asiatic Nomads (Scythians included)
Arabs
Alexander and Successors

There is more, but they don't apply to the RTW time period.


Each factions list has details on the military they used, units, weapons, armor and what that unit was called in that cultures language.
The name of the book is "warhammer armies of antiquity"

You can google it but I don't think you'll find any pictures of the inside of the book...

PSYCHO V
10-18-2004, 02:19
I'm currently working on Gallic Noblemen if that's ok. I scanned in this image from a book I have and thought it a good reference..

Sounds great mate, can't wait to see what models you can come up with.

I do think we need to sort out a definitive list, else we'll get repetion / redundancy etc. So can we have a chat about the Gallic units before we get too far into the nitty gritty?

I believe we have two options:

1) Just mod existing units to be more factual / interesting
2) Rework the lot

Here’s a point to start from, my past recommendations. Feel free to rip these lists to shreds, make changes, give input, recommendations, etc etc etc. But I do think we need to come to an agreeance IMHO.





OPTION 1)

This is a fix to the existing Rome Total War

· Make the following unit changes
· Make the Gauls and Britons begin as allies or on very friendly terms.
· Make the Belgae in Gaul a very strong rebel group with Gallic horse, Skirmishers and Briton Swordsmen (as per mentioned)


GAULS:


A) Give all units (except peasants) a torque around their neck
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps261195.jpg


B) Give the ‘Warband’ a shield with a boss (centre bit) running it’s length and include some celtic designs.
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps179137.jpg


C) Change all round shields to have a similar boss as mentioned above, remove studs around edges, star burst patterns etc and include some celtic designs.


D) Give the ‘Swordsman’ a Gallic helmet, a long sleave shirt and shield with Celtic designs
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/NHM/Prehist/Collection/Images/Abb22.jpg
http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_products/th_sh054.jpg


E) Give the ‘Chosen Swordsman’ a Gallic boar helmet and a chain mail vest (with shoulder straps) over a long sleave shirt. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs. Note ‘C’ Give the shield a small band of black and white cheque pattern with two dots each side
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prilba2.jpg


F) Give the ‘Noble Cavalry’ a Gallic raven Helmet, Short sleave chain mail shirt over a long sleave shirt and cloak fastened at shoulder with broach. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs. Note ‘C’
http://www.lastsquare.com/MiniCatalog/Largefigs/lftmp-15.jpg


G) Make the Gallic ‘Druid’ an Infantry version of this guy with a long Gallic sword
http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/images/54mm_Heavy_Gallic_Cavalry_5.jpg


H) Make the ‘General’ an elaborate version of ‘F’ with maybe some wings on his helmet and remove the beard from the Forester Warband. Replace the unit flag with a boar standard, unit leader with an infantry version of 'F'. Add hornblower
http://arquebus.com/trad_90mm/JW90152.jpg



BRITONS:


I) Repeat ‘A’ and ‘B’


J) Give the ‘Swordsman’ a Briton helmet (with small cheek guards) and shield (sides of which would be coloured)
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/PeakedHelmet1.JPG
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/PeakedHelmet2.JPG
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps233381.jpg


K) Give the ‘Chosen Swordsman’ a Thames styled helmet, elaborate shield, long sleave shirt and cloak fixed at the shoulder with a broach. Keep the mow but remove the beard and strappings around lower legs.
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/HornedHelmet.JPG
http://www.brigantesnation.com/celticart/Celtic/BatterseaShield.JPG


L) Dress the ‘Light Charioteers’ more like this
http://www.histomin.com/lineevd/mpevcg35.jpg


M) Dress the Heavy Charioteers the same as the Rider (non-driver) above but give the Rider a vest of chain mail, a cloak fastened at the shoulder by a broach and a shield as in ‘K’


N) Give the ‘Druid’ a War Hammer and small square buckler / shield


O) Make the ‘General’ an elaborate version of ‘K’ (though he’ll be mounted) with some elaborate bronze plate armour. Replace unit standard with stag horn standard, Unit leader with infantry version of Rider 'M'. Add hornblower



GERMANS:


P) Give the ‘Warband’ / phalanx a hexagonal shield. Same as the ‘Naked Fanatics’ but remove the celtic designs and replace with the sun burst motif used by the original ‘Chosen Swordsmen’; and shorten their spears a little.
http://members.aol.com/hubhobbie/kcelt1.JPG

Q) Give the ‘Night Raiders’ a beard, remove the Gallic plats and give them a pony tail.


R) Give the ‘Chosen Axeman’ a fur slung around their shoulders.



OPTION 2)

This is for our ultimate historical mod and involves additions of completely new units, changing hiring methods, map mods, fortification mods etc

· Add Gergovia as an Oppida (if unable, give stone walls) and make rebel
. Add Bibracte as an Oppida (if unable, give stone walls)
· Add the following region specific Gallic troops
. Give all units a leader dressed like the Arverni but with sword, this helmet in bronze and black plum
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prilba1.jpg
. Change standard to be a golden / Bronze Boar
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prase.jpg
. Change standard bearer to Southern Warband with Boar helmet.
. Add Carnyx blower with same attire.


THE GAUL FACTION


LIGHT INFANTRY


Senone Slingers : (Light Infantry)

Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Dubious Morale under heavy casualties
(Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back).
These adept skirmishers can hurl lead slugs at high speed over good distances. They are particularly good at attacking lightly armed troops. They can fight with sword if forced, but they prove to be ineffective in hand-to-hand warfare.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)


Aquitanian Archers: (Light Infantry)

Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Low Morale
(Shorter darker hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers in ‘faction colours’ and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield). These troops come from the smaller, more passive tribes of Southern Gaul. Good at showering the enemy with archery fire, they will soon run if engaged in hand to hand fighting.
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)


Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’): (Light Infantry)

Extremely Impetuous, Extremely Undisciplined, Good Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good Attack
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
The ‘Bodvoritus’ tend to come from the Brannovice (‘frenzied ones’) tribe. The Brannovice were a client to the Aedui and were renown for their berserk behaviour in battle. They would drink a ‘magical’ potion before entering battle which gave them ‘special’ courage, stamina and protection from the pain of wounds. Once worked up into a frenzy, they would often fight in a similar fashion as the Picts some centuries later. Working in pairs, one would throw themselves on the enemy’s weapon whilst the other struck the encumbered down.
(Can be raised from central Transalpine Gaul)



MEDIUM INFANTRY


Southern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield with Celtic swirl design)
The Southern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Northern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They throw their spears before charging home with sword and have a good initial assault.
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)


Northern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield)
The Northern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Southern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears before charging home with sword. Sapping Ability
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)


Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’): (Medium Infantry)

Disciplined, Average Valour, Dubious Morale, more easily achieve ambushes, receive bonus to attack when directly from ships or at night.
(Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides).
The Veneti (‘Clansmen’) were a maritime tribe that traded and raided the oceans centuries before the first Vikings. They were adept guerrilla fighters who excelled in using the terrain to their advantage / sneaking up on their enemies. They also excel at ambushes, night and amphibious operations.
(Can be raised from Veneti Territory)


Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Impetuous, Very High Valour, Good Stamina, Very High Morale, Good Attack
(Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
The ‘Dubi Dusios’ are Elite Celtiberian warriors from Spain. They are chosen from among the ranks for their skill, fitness and bravery in battle. Though rough and ready, these Celtiberians are fierce ferocious fighters that can hold their own against almost any opposition.
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)


Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)




HEAVY INFANTRY


Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Heavy Infantry)

Good Discipline, Low Valour, Easily Fatigued, Good Morale
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak in ‘faction colours’ gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield).
The Arverni (‘Superior Ones’) are a large powerful tribe who have become extremely wealthy through trade with the Mediterraean. As such, they have a large body of nobility who are afforded the time and wealth to prepare well for battle.
The Arverni Arjos sport the finest equipment available and train daily in its use. They can form a testudo or shield wall quickly and prove to be sturdy force in any line of battle.
(Can be raised from Arverni Territory post Marian reforms)
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltNob_WarriorCeltWar.jpg


Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors): (Elite Heavy Infantry)

High Valour, High Morale, Good attack, Cause Fear against other Gallic units, Large Additional Valour and Morale Bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield).
These ‘Cincetos’ are Elite fighters who hail from the land of the Carnutes, the heart of the Druidic religion in Gaul. As Druids, they invoke the Gallic god Cernunnos (‘The Horned One’ hence the helmets) to give them courage in battle. Trained in the Druidic schools and Carnute military colleges, they are extremely expensive to raise but are fanatical volunteers that will fight to the death, especially against non-Celtic factions. [These units become slightly cheaper if at war with non-Celtic invaders.]
(Can be raised from Carnute Territory)



CAVALRY


Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’): (Medium Cavalry)
Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Morale
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic in ‘faction colours’ over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield with cheque pattern, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
The Gallic ‘Leuce Epos’ constitute the bulk of Gallic cavalry. The term ‘Leuce’ was applied more due to their swiftness of foot than their equipment. Able to either throw or thrust with spears before engaging with sword, they form an effective mobile force.
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)


Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’): (Heavy Cavalry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Excellent Attack
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield).
The ‘Brihentin’ are chosen from among the tribe’s nobility for their prowess in battle. These troops are well armed and experienced in battle. They are trained to couch their lance before closing with their long swords. Extremely expensive to raise, they prove invaluable to any astute War-chief.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)



MERCENARIES


Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’): (Elite Light / Mercenary Infantry)

Impetuous, High valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Very Good Attack, Long spear throwing range.
(Iron Helmet with boar crest and black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets, Large well built and naked but for a small flap in ‘faction colours’ at front and back of groin (for the kiddies)).
These are a group of elite warriors that have left their tribal allegiances to sell their services to the highest bidder. They believe their nakedness allows their fighting mogo to flow.
(Can be hired at great cost from anywhere that has a Gallic shrine)


Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’): (Elite Medium / Mercenary Infantry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Stamina, Average Morale
(Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield)
The Ordocorii come from the Ordovices (‘Those that fight with hammers’), a Briton tribe situated on the Western coast of the Isle (Wales). They lack central government and tend to seek fortune where-ever they may find it, willingly crossing the channel to offer their services to their Gallic cousins.
They invoke the Celtic god Sucellus (‘Hammer god’) prior battle and tend to possess an acute hatred of Rome.
(Can be hired at great cost from any Gallic coastal province)


Mori Gaesum (‘Sea of Spears’): (Elite Heavy / Mercenary Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Very Good Morale
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, Pikes, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges)
The ‘Mori Gaesum’ are mercenaries raised from among the Helvetii (Swiss). These Helvetians were very well organised into units with good leadership and discipline. Of all the Gauls, they were the most experienced and effective in the employment of the Phalanx. Much like other Gallic tribes that use close formation tactics, they will drop their spears once the enemy formation is broken and charge home with the sword.
(Can be hired at great cost from Helvetii territory)
http://www.r-kproductions.com/products/P54133.jpg


Teutones: (Elite Light / Mercenary Cavalry)

Disciplined, Excellent Valour, Good Stamina, Excellent Morale
(Hair dyed red and in pony tail, full beard, naked chest, short cloak, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, small square shield)
The Teutones are German Mercenaries willing to cross the Rhine and sell their blood for gold and glory. Equipped with sturdy Gallic mounts, they are fast and ferocious and can often outfight more heavier armed opponents.
(Can be hire at great cost from German territory)



Thoughts anyone? :book:

ick_of_pick
10-18-2004, 06:27
Thats alot of detail for the Celtic/Germanic Peoples, and I'm impressed by the names being in the appropritate language. However, isn't the reason they were labeled "barbarians" by the Romans because Celtic/Briton/Germanic armies were generally just a mass of untrained, undisciplined, unmotivated, poorly equiped villagers who would turn and run from combat if thier initial mass-charge was stopped? Besides, according to Roman records, less than 1/5th of the army actually had armor, and even less than that had horses. There were those select few who were considrered fanatical warriors, and would work themselves into a berserker frenzy, but even they would break and run if things got bad. I personally find the Celts to be very interseting culture to study, but they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians.

Ick

P.S. How is it that they let you train Libyan Spearmen when your not even in Libya? Another total war mystery yet to be solved.

PSYCHO V
10-18-2004, 07:47
Thats alot of detail for the Celtic/Germanic Peoples, and I'm impressed by the names being in the appropritate language. However, isn't the reason they were labeled "barbarians" by the Romans because Celtic/Briton/Germanic armies were generally just a mass of untrained, undisciplined, unmotivated, poorly equiped villagers who would turn and run from combat if thier initial mass-charge was stopped? Besides, according to Roman records, less than 1/5th of the army actually had armor, and even less than that had horses.

There were those select few who were considrered fanatical warriors, and would work themselves into a berserker frenzy, but even they would break and run if things got bad. I personally find the Celts to be very interseting culture to study, but they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians.

Ick.

:book: arr...no

1) “barbarians”. For starters the Britons, Gauls and Germans all fought and equipped themselves differently. They were labelled Barbarians because they didn’t speak Greek or adopt Roman Culture. Rather ethno centric way of looking at the world imho. Like England calling America barbaric or vis versa.

2) “Training”. There was a great deal of variation of quality between tribes but generally they were all trained to a degree. Even the Stone Age German Fennians were trained by their tribe to use the spear and bow. Some were very well trained in weapon use, tactics and formations. The Chatii and Helvetii excelled at the phalanx, the Arverni and Allobroges renown for their heavy infantry shield formations, etc etc

3) “Discipline”. There are numerous accounts of both Celts and Germans holding their lines and fighting to the last man. It’s worth mentioning that all men are human and can give up… even the ‘elite’ Spartans. The Celts were just as human but it seems the Romans in particular made light of those times in which the Celts run from battle. Whilst the Romans concede defeat at the hands of a ‘worthy foe’ the semi-cultured Carthaginians, the Celts and Germans are derided at every opportunity unless, like in a few cases with Caesar, they are grudgingly conceded notable qualities when if suits the political ends. Very little is said of the 100’s of 1,000’s of Romans that lost their lives under the blades of the Germans, the Gauls, the Celtiberians. Huge defeats, as big in casualties as Cannae.

4) “Unmotivated”. Hmm, I have to say your not exhibiting much understanding of these ancient cultures.

5) “Poorly equipped villagers”. Well some documents I’ve read place the Arverni / Allobroge army mid 2nd century had a majority of their troops in chain mail. They were extremely well led, (with unit commanders) and equipped. The problem was that they never got to strike a blow in all their fine array. The Romans charged them with Elephants and having never seen the beasts before, and been told of these fearful creatures by their ancestors that fought Hannibal a generation before..they fled in terror.

6) “Who would turn and run from combat if their initial mass-charge was stopped”. Again even Caesar’s well read account mentions Celts fighting to the last man.

7) “they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians”. And all those defeats were because ? The Greeks got trounced by the Celts, the Carthaginians had a very hard time and made more progress through diplomacy, the Romans threw huge resources and manpower into any conflict and only then managed to finally destroy the Celts by dividing and conquering. They never conquered the Germans.


my2bob ~;)

Ranika
10-18-2004, 07:59
The barbarians were exceptionally well motivated compared to most of the people of the ancient world. While religion was a motivator for everyone, the religions of Celts and Germans were especially invigorating, not to mention an intense 'culture pride' that made them loathe outside invaders, much of the time.

The Gauls, particularly, had a professional concept of warfare, with professional soldiers, that were quite capable of obliterating Roman and Greek armies (hence how Gaul sacked Rome). Julius conquered Gaul by encouraging the infighting and getting the professionals killed, and fighting against hastily assembled levies, and the remnants of professional soldiers.

You also have to realize 'Roman accounts' of any barbarian are more than a little skewed, often to make their enemies seem less terrible. They were often quite offended by the cultures of the northern people, and, as such, were rather loathe to say anything 'nice' about them, although that happened from time to time.

The most 'glowing' presentation of a barbarian in the mediterranean cultures is probably the statue of 'The Dying Gaul'. The Gaul is purposely made to look without fear, because it was noted that Gauls, and other barbarian tribes, didn't tend to face death with fear, due to the aforementioned religious practices. The accomplishments of the Celts and Germans aren't often recorded though, as niether wrote a great deal. The Celts (not sure about the Germans), actually had a religious reason not to, thinking things were too precious to be written down, but there were many who COULD write, often in Greek or Latin. But, Celtic culture was considered too precious to be written down usually, and the memory was highly valued, so it was expected that events should be commited to memory, not written down. However, their known accomplishments include sacking Rome (both Celts and Germans), and that's the important one to take into consideration. If barbarian armies were so easily defeated, there is no concievable way they could've done that, regardless of numbers (note Boudicca's defeat, huge numbers against the legion isn't going to win everything for you, but Boudicca's 'army' WAS generally untrained peasants who followed her out of a type of proto-nationalism).

reconspy
10-18-2004, 13:03
Hey all, since Vercingetorix's release of the CAS Editor today, I've started working on the units posted by PSCYHO V.

Here is the first version of Arverni Arjos. The cloak will be hard to do, but I will attempt it. The golden embroidery on the bottom of the tunic is also hard to do as there isn't much room for that kind of detail. There are still some minor details I have to work out. Any comments or criticisms are appreciated.

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverniarjos.jpg

I have a torc!
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_torc.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front2.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_shield.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_back.jpg

Dead Moroz
10-18-2004, 14:44
Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 15:15
Warhammer Ancients is a set of rules that are used to re-create ancient/medieval battles using small painted pewter miniatures. The rulebook comes with lists of almost every army you can think of from pre-Sumerian times to Japanese Samurai times. It's very realistic and was written by historians and military professors not video game developers. It includes:

Egyptians: pre alexander, and after
Republican Romans
Post Marian Romans
Late Romans
Carthaginians
Greeks
Assyrians
Macedonians
Britons
Gauls
Celtic Spain
Germans
Parthians
Palmyrans
Asiatic Nomads (Scythians included)
Arabs
Alexander and Successors

There is more, but they don't apply to the RTW time period.


Each factions list has details on the military they used, units, weapons, armor and what that unit was called in that cultures language.
The name of the book is "warhammer armies of antiquity"

You can google it but I don't think you'll find any pictures of the inside of the book...
Can we get all that info in some specific site and post it in the EB thread at the Colosseum?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 15:30
Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?
He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

Fantastic skinning, reconspy!!! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 15:31
Sounds great mate, can't wait to see what models you can come up with.

I do think we need to sort out a definitive list, else we'll get repetion / redundancy etc. So can we have a chat about the Gallic units before we get too far into the nitty gritty?
I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!


I believe we have two options:

1) Just mod existing units to be more factual / interesting
2) Rework the lot
For now we can only re-skin units. And we'll do the "barbarian" units first.


Here’s a point to start from, my past recommendations. Feel free to rip these lists to shreds, make changes, give input, recommendations, etc etc etc. But I do think we need to come to an agreeance IMHO.

Thoughts anyone? :book:
Yes. Don't post Historical info here. The EB thread at the Colosseum is for that purpose. Here only technical discussion. OK?

Dead Moroz
10-18-2004, 15:55
He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-18-2004, 16:13
I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!
Sorry!!! I'm an idiot!!! :wall:

I've been pretty busy and didn't know that Vercingetorix had released the script!!! I'm going to try it as we speak!!! :smile:

Vercingetorix
10-18-2004, 20:05
Looking good reconspy, apparently you are much farther then I am on the model so I think it would be best if I worked on a different one so we aren't competing or doing the same thing. I hope you include the sun medalion ~:)

khelvan
10-18-2004, 20:12
Ok, things are shaping up, this looks good.

First, I have made several changes to gameplay, and I am looking for people willing to test them. Please contact me via PM if you are interested and I'll get you the relevant files.

Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.

I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.

Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.

Stormy
10-18-2004, 20:57
Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter ~;)

Here is 2 good links that can provide some good info for some of the departments some of the modders are working on.

Livius - Articles in ancient history (http://www.livius.org/home.html)

Kessler - History files (http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/HistoryFiles.htm)

Stormy
10-18-2004, 21:02
I got the pm. Sign me up for testing :bow:

Steppe Merc
10-18-2004, 22:51
I'll gladly do beta testing etc.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 00:01
Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter ~;)
Hey, Stormy! You can post at this thread. Everyone can. There is no problem. But varied info is better if concentrated in each specific thread. It was getting too confusing. :confused:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 00:09
Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Stefan the Berserker
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
TigerVX
reconspy
Aymar de Bois Mauri

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Stefan the Berserker
PSYCHO
PSYCHO V (are these two avatars the same person??? :confused: as they both say "Australia" and they post a lot of info about Celts!! :help: I'm getting sooooo confused... :confused: )
Stormy
chemchok
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
...

More imput people, please... :help:



Updated 17:50 - 10/19/04

ick_of_pick
10-19-2004, 00:10
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the Gallic, Briton, and Germanic peoples were poor warriors, I'm saying they were ineffective because of a lack of organization and irregular training. The Romans would drill thier troops constantly, and they were taught how to work together as an army. They had much more balance in terms of combined arms, and would respond to orders and change in battlefield tactics much more efficiently than the Gauls ever could. If your talking about individual fighting prowess, then yes, I would agree that a single Celt or German would most likely defeat a single legionnaire in one-on-one combat, seeing as how they trained from youth to be outstanding individual fighters. The reason I call them ineffective is because of the big picture. They were conquered. It is a definite fact that the Celts did win many battles against the Romans, Boudiccas rebellion alone killed about 70,000 Roman Soldiers. However, consider the fact that the Roman army, at it's maximum number of about 500,000 men, spread out across the whole empire managed to defeat and drive out a Gallic population of over 6,000,000. That shows how hopeless they were against the legions on open ground. There are certain situations, such as Teutoburg Forest, where the "Barbarians" defeated the Romans by luring them into a devastating ambush in terrain the Legions articulated poorly in, but these are few, and were not major setbacks for the Romans. I'm a big fan of Celtic culture and history, so don't think I'm some sort of biased maniac. But history shows results, and the Romans pretty much out performed the Celts in terms of overall martial ability.

Ick

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 00:17
Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.
Well, I'm up to my neck in work with the list me and TK are making for all the units being modified and the new ones, as well as trying to coordinate the remaining Historical info, but I'll try.


I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.
Hey, you Historians!!! Heard that? Get to work, guys!!! :help:

Just for the record, I' will alter and add the new Iberian units, as well as the Iberian faction descriptions.


Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.
I would like to help, but I'm not familiar with it.

chemchok
10-19-2004, 02:15
Alright, sign me up to help out. My programming skills are practically non-existent but I'd be happy to help out with the unit descriptions, family names, faction history, etc. I don't really have any preferences, so just tell me what's needed at the moment.

Edit: Oh, and playtesting doesn't sound too bad either.

Stormy
10-19-2004, 03:08
Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.

PSYCHO V
10-19-2004, 05:36
I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!

:embarassed: I've been reprehended. Sorry all. ~:)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

RECONSPY ! you bloody legend !

:charge: :charge: :charge:

Very Very nice work mate! ..and we have our first Celt with a TORC !!

A few minor suggestions if possible:

* make the torc bigger. I know the pic plays it down a bit but from archeological evidence we know they were very conspicuous.

* Great Helm but squaring off the cheek guards would help a bit

* Love the cloak, again great job there. Prob needs a nice bronze / golden broach on that shoulder if poss. and a little longer.

* 'Flesh out' the pants and shirt so as not to appear so tight

* Give short boots

* Golden braclets

* make the Shield larger

* Maybe make the pants a dark green tartan pattern to give a little faction colour.

* Would be good if possible, to reduce the flare of the shirt etc below the belt so that it's closer to the leg.

* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com) ~D

Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vercingetrix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible. Any chance you could work on the 'Bodubatae' ? Rather difficult unit that may need your special attention?

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)The most challenging of the Gallic units would be the Could you start on the

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be. Can you add units to the units build lists yet?


Cheers

khelvan
10-19-2004, 05:54
I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all. All I need are the unit stats/info and the required files. Since I'm currently toying with the game systems, I don't have time to work with you guys on the unit stats, so I trust you guys to balance them out for now.

I should have a link to a .zip with the work I have done sent to those who have expressed interest in beta testing tonight or tomorrow.

Also, check out this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37945

If that gets up and running, everyone benefits, as the amount of information we'll be able to find there will be huge.

Edit: I should add that units have sounds and such associated with them, I assume if you haven't made new ones you'll need to pick existing sounds to use.

PSYCHO V
10-19-2004, 06:14
I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all.

Brilliant. You couldn't put together a quick list of comparative stats for say the Gauls, Brits, Germans, Romans and Greeks? It would give a starting point.

Is it possible to mod the Arverni to enable a phalanx ability with their current spears or do you have to then give them the very long pikes for that? If so, can we give them a Celtic longsword as a secondary weapon that they use when not in phalanx and charge?

khelvan
10-19-2004, 07:24
Please take a look at the other Europa Barbarorum thread, in the Colosseum, for information on the units - I posted a link there to someone's unit stat collection online. Transcribing the info would be quite the difficult thing to do, with so much data.

As to your question about the unit behavior, I am not sure but I believe that you need the long pikes to utilize the phalanx. On the second weapon, to be honest I do not know. I know that the unit can have two melee weapons, but I have no idea how their use is determined. I suggest finding a unit with two melee weapons, digging through export_unit.txt to see what the data looks like, and watch it fight in the game. That is the best I can tell you, for now.

Mr Frost
10-19-2004, 09:30
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the Gallic, Briton, and Germanic peoples were poor warriors, I'm saying they were ineffective because of a lack of organization and irregular training. The Romans would drill thier troops constantly, and they were taught how to work together as an army. They had much more balance in terms of combined arms, and would respond to orders and change in battlefield tactics much more efficiently than the Gauls ever could. If your talking about individual fighting prowess, then yes, I would agree that a single Celt or German would most likely defeat a single legionnaire in one-on-one combat, seeing as how they trained from youth to be outstanding individual fighters. The reason I call them ineffective is because of the big picture. They were conquered. It is a definite fact that the Celts did win many battles against the Romans, Boudiccas rebellion alone killed about 70,000 Roman Soldiers. However, consider the fact that the Roman army, at it's maximum number of about 500,000 men, spread out across the whole empire managed to defeat and drive out a Gallic population of over 6,000,000. That shows how hopeless they were against the legions on open ground. There are certain situations, such as Teutoburg Forest, where the "Barbarians" defeated the Romans by luring them into a devastating ambush in terrain the Legions articulated poorly in, but these are few, and were not major setbacks for the Romans. I'm a big fan of Celtic culture and history, so don't think I'm some sort of biased maniac. But history shows results, and the Romans pretty much out performed the Celts in terms of overall martial ability.

Ick



Historically , the best that most societies can manage in way of producing professional soldiers is about 10 percent of their total population and that is only in war {unsustainable} and the average quality of soldier is usually lower than would normally be the case {not every man makes a good soldier , most will always be mediocre fighters simply because they don't have the natural tallent to build on} .

The Gauls had been through some very costly civil wars and a great number of their professional warriors were already dead when Ceasar set out to conquer them , and they did not unite {or even try too , the civil wars were still raging} until it was far too late .
Most of Vetorngetorix army was untrained "patriots" , farmers etc . They probably got in the way more than they helped . Also , many groups in that army {an other such "scratch forces" feilded} did not work well together {they had been killing each other for many years now in civil war after all} which made matters worse .

6 million people who are busy fighting each other and have lost much of their best fighting power in those civil wars isn't much to conquer when you have an empire of several tens of millions behind you that is quite stable and wealthy !
Note how quickly Germany conquered France , Belgium , Poland , The Netherlands , Norway etc in WWII ... Rome conquering a divided people whom were already badly attrited and a mere fraction of Romes population and wealth doesn't make those Celts backwards nor their armies {as they were before their coalition of tribes broke apart in civil war} weak or disorganised .
The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost .

Had Gaul not been torn by civil conflict , they would have not only soundly beat Caesars' forces , but likely have invaded Roman territory with great success . At their best , they were more powerful than most people realise by far these days .

You don't seem to understand just what a warrior society can produce in way of fighting forces .
Consider that the Maoris who were stone age tribesmen and had far fewer numbers that the Gauls had when Caesar attacked managed to force the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires {whom were basically the model Britain patterned their troops on} to fight three separate wars {and Britain nearly gave up at one point !} and did so well that their language is taught to all New Zealand children in schools today .
That was stone age tribesmen often wiping the floor with British riflemen ! That is what a "barbarian" warrior society can do when it is at its' best !

TenkiSoratoti_
10-19-2004, 15:20
The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost.

Britain with-drew from France because Germany attacked by surprise. The Blitzkrieg Hitler unleashed was rumbling forward with unstoppable force. Even with the skill of the British soldier and his superior training in combat, they could not stop the overwhelming force of a 6 year prepared merciless killing machine.


the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires

Britain modelled her army's on the Roman Legions? I thought everyone did :rolleyes2:

How can you generalise with the Maori War? It wasn't big enough and the Imperial troops were forced to fight un-conventionally :rolleyes2:

I seriously cannot understand why everyone picks on the British Army when it is arguably the most successful fighting machine on this planet. Pick on other armies, I know quite a few that you could quite happily base your examples on.

SaFe
10-19-2004, 16:20
Hello@all,

i'm looking forward to this great mod and i want to give you support.
My english isn't the best, but i've took my history exam in germanic history during roman times.So, if you need some input or information i'm more than happy to help.

Greetings from Ladenburg(b.t.w. a roman castell in former times)

P.S.
Hey, just recognized the right place to post this.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 16:45
Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.
I'm still deciding if it is worth it to make a Lusitanii faction. For sure there will be four new Lusitanian units (I'll mod them), but the feasability of a weak faction is in question. A probable solution will be to include them in a reworked Iberian faction (4 new Lusitanii units + 5 new Celtiberian units, as well as some reworked Iberian units). No Iberian Bullshite Warriors!!! ~:pissed:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 17:03
:embarassed: I've been reprehended. Sorry all. ~:)
Don't get offended. Nothing personal. But we need to separate specific info. The EB thread at the Colosseum was getting extremelly confusing. This info separation makes it more approachable.


* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com) ~D
Eager, hey? :wink:


Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?
If you're capable with PSP, sure. What's your proficiency with it?


BTW, is PSYCHO and PSYCHO V the same Australian guy? That is, YOU? :confused:



Vercingetorix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible.
Yeap. He is the MAN!!! :thumbsup:


Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be.
I've put you in the testing team.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 17:15
Brilliant. You couldn't put together a quick list of comparative stats for say the Gauls, Brits, Germans, Romans and Greeks? It would give a starting point.
The best for everyone taking care of units, is to get this:

RomeUnitGuide (PDF format) 1.2 (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/index.php?mod=108)

It's a list of all RTW units stats, in the release version. Continually being updated.

Hagbard la Suede
10-19-2004, 17:21
I know this might seem strange,but I'm a big lover of the european "barbarian" factions,and I think I'd be great to test them out too :)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 17:37
Historically...


Britain...
Word of warning!!! ~:pissed:

This is not a thread for Historical discussion. If you want to do that, do it the Monastery. This a technical discussion thread. I shall not repeat myself!!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 17:41
I know this might seem strange,but I'm a big lover of the european "barbarian" factions,and I think I'd be great to test them out too :)
Added to the list.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 17:53
Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, acconding to you interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
...

Germanic:
Stefan the Berserker
reconspy
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Undetermined faction (PM me to coordinate):
TigerVX
...
...
...

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
...

Germanic:
Stefan the Berserker
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Undetermined faction (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
...

Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 14:20 - 10/20/04

Salazar
10-19-2004, 19:30
I would like to Take part in Gameplay testing, as i don't know much about modding but would like to help in some Way :-)

PSYCHO V
10-19-2004, 20:31
Yes, same Psycho Aussie guy.

Well, began my first forays into skinning.

Played with those dam Night Raiders and got rid of those annoying Gallic traits. Can't do anything bout dem plats unfortunately.

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/NightRaiders.jpg

..and been playing with the Gallic Warband. Anyone have an easy solution for the torc?

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GaulWarband.jpg

:charge:

Steppe Merc
10-19-2004, 22:15
Right, I know a lot about Parthia, so I'll list the Parthian units, whether there good or not, and make suggestion changes/additions.
First off, all of them should be recoulered, loose the faction colours, and loose the pajamas.

Melee

1. Peasants - Not so sure. I hate peasants, so I can't comment on them in a non biased fashion.
2. Eastern Infanrt- Idea good, exicution bad. Loose the pajamas, and the hood. Stats are good, as their infantry sucked.
3. Hillmen- Pretty good. They did recruit many hill people, and they were better trained than their standard infantry. Mabye loose the hood.

This is pretty good. The parthians infantry sucked, and most were skirmershers, so this is represented pretty well.

Skirmeshers

1. Slingers - Has pajamaitis. Has too strong of an melee attack. These guys were either mercanaries or hillmen.
2. Archers: Pretty good. But all of the archer units need to have better range, as the Parthians and the Scythians had the best archers hand down.
3. Onagers No good. The Parthians were a steppe people, and really really were bad at seiging. Get rid of this unit.

We should also add peltlasts, which the Armenians and the Pontusians already have. Just give them that. Mabye we could have a mercanary archer unit, a hybrid like the Jannisaries (good ranged and good melee)

Mounted Archers
1. Horse Archers- Again, pajamitis. Loose the pajamas, give them no head gear and long flowing hair. Mabye their can be two units: One Iranian Nomad, and another a Lesser Parthian Noble.
2. Persian Cavalry: I guess this is like the Parthian Nobles? The need longer hair, and their outfits need to be not purple, and far more colorful.

We should add the Cataphract Archers, which Armenia already has. Also, split the Horse Archers into two or three catogories as suggested. The Lesser Parthian Noble could have better melee and better armour. Also, as another nomadic unit (which would be trainable, but cost more), can toss javilens.


Heavy Horse
1. Cataphracts: As for one type of Cataphracts, this is good. But they need to hold their kontus in two hands. However, there should be three different classes of Cataphracts: One that has the horses unarmored. These are poorer nobles, probably with scale armour for themselves. Another could be a fully armoured cataphract, but with scale armour on himself and his horse. This and the first class would make up the large number of cataphracts. The fewest number would be the current Cataphracts, as these represtent extremely rich nobles, and would be few in numbers.
2, Camel Cataphracts: Um... This might be okay if we just give the camel no armour, and mabye the rider scale armour.
3. War Elephants: These are fine, if they are Indian Elephants (which it's really easy to change it to).

Right, so there should be three classes of cataphracts, as opposed to the one right now.

Others
1. Early General: This is the javilen tossing, unarmoured early version. Um... I think that if we want to keep this guy in, give them armour on them... But I fail to see why a general would be decked out like this when he could be outfitted in a cataphract way. But whatever floats your boat.
2. Later General: These guys are Cataphracts. Mabye they could be like Siphie of the Porte, and in addition to their two handed kontus, also have compound bows? Either way, they would be the most expensive and current class of catas.

Mercanary units:
1. Bedoun Camel Archers: Not to sure.
2. Bedoun Warriors: Not to sure
3. Arab Cavalry: Not to sure.
I'm pretty sure most of the Parthian mercanaries were either light infantry, nomadic tribes from Iran, or Greeks. I don't think they would have recruited mercanary cavalry when their cavalry was far superior, but I'm not sure.

Right. Please nitpick, point out inaccuracies, point out impossibilities, and make your own suggestions.

Stormy
10-19-2004, 22:40
Good looking skins boys! its on the right path :charge:

Parthia needs help. I don't really like their faction color at all. It is like a hot pink/purple color hehe.

I agree with merc all the way. Merc does have many parthian pictures by Angus Mcbride that can be of some help. ~;) I will like to see those parthians with the round hat they have in Men-at-Arms * 175

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-19-2004, 23:57
I would like to Take part in Gameplay testing, as i don't know much about modding but would like to help in some Way :-)
Added. Welcome... ~:wave:

ick_of_pick
10-20-2004, 00:19
I was not aware that the Gallic peoples had been in a civil war prior to the expansion of Caesars imperialism. This clarifies a lot for me and I will defenitely do a little more research on both sides of an argument before making a solid stand. Oh well, all the more to read about!

Aymar, I'm going to scan the army lists you asked for, because there is too much info for me to type. It should be done pretty soon though.

Ick

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 00:32
Yes, same Psycho Aussie guy.
Thanks!!! That solves a bit my confusion!!! BTW, why the two names? :thinking:


Well, began my first forays into skinning.

Played with those dam Night Raiders and got rid of those annoying Gallic traits. Can't do anything bout dem plats unfortunately.
Annoying Gallic traits? You mean the moustaches? This might sound stupid but, what do you mean by plats?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 00:54
Right. Please nitpick, point out inaccuracies, point out impossibilities, and make your own suggestions.
HE!HE!HE! This is gonna be fun!!! :devil: ............................... :joker:


3. Onagers No good. The Parthians were a steppe people, and really really were bad at seiging. Get rid of this unit.
Then you won't be able to siege cities at all. Is that realistic? Were the Parthians that bad at sieging?


We should also add peltlasts, which the Armenians and the Pontusians already have. Just give them that. Mabye we could have a mercanary archer unit, a hybrid like the Jannisaries (good ranged and good melee)
Please, no invented units, ok?

As for the pajamas, we'll base ourselves in your posts at the EB Colosseum thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 01:00
Aymar, I'm going to scan the army lists you asked for, because there is too much info for me to type. It should be done pretty soon though.
Great!!! Thanks!!! :thumbsup:

Vercingetorix
10-20-2004, 05:32
Psycho I made a torc tell me if it's any good and if you want it and if so what format to send it to you? (max or cas)

http://img95.exs.cx/img95/7072/torcs.th.jpg (http://img95.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img95&image=torcs.jpg)

PSYCHO V
10-20-2004, 06:34
Never cease to amaze mate! It's great to have your help.

Personally, I'd make the torcs a little conspicuous / larger / fatter / hang a little lower.. but great to see it done!! It's a pain in the a$$ to just skin them on and they look like sh8.

Ok, Lots of questions:

* Where are you up too and what are you working on? Been shadowing your every step both there and at the TWC. Your turning me into a stalker. :embarassed: Prob need to talk to recon as well.

* Are you planning on / have time to do, the majority of 3D work for the Gauls, Brits and Germans? Having never before done any 3D work, is it worth me delving in to give you a hand?

* I'd love to have it (torcs) but as mentioned, I haven't the 3D software (yet). Do I need the 3D stuff to use them? If so, do you want to knock out a warband unit and I’ll skin him for you.

* Minor point, but is it possible to have the duds gather at the ankles?

* Is it possible to replace the Gallic plats / braids with a pony tail for the German Night Raider?



Regards

Vercingetorix
10-20-2004, 06:50
Currently I'm not working on anything, need an assignment =). Some people catch on to 3d quite quickly, I've seen people who have never used 3ds max make simple models and edit within days. Others take months, and it takes years to master it.

Sure just tell me what you want and i'll pump out a warband for you, as for the "plats" I'm not too familer with this term. I'll see what I can do about making a ponytail.

edit: yes I'm Paul. I was thinking we need some form of realtime communication, an IRC channel maybe? I'm often on msn (pauldls at hotmail dot com) if you have msn add me.

Antalis::
10-20-2004, 07:01
Wow Vercingetorix you did a great job for the community with your 3D-max tool ~:cheers:

I have respect for such a great work and effort.


cheers:

Antalis

PSYCHO V
10-20-2004, 07:50
Currently I'm not working on anything, need an assignment =). Some people catch on to 3d quite quickly, I've seen people who have never used 3ds max make simple models and edit within days. Others take months, and it takes years to master it.

Sure just tell me what you want and i'll pump out a warband for you, as for the "plats" I'm not too familer with this term. I'll see what I can do about making a ponytail.

edit: yes I'm Paul. I was thinking we need some form of realtime communication, an IRC channel maybe? I'm often on msn (pauldls at hotmail dot com) if you have msn add me.

Well, you guessed it, haven't used IRC before either ~:) . I'll d/l it.

Thanks, that would be great if you could do a warband guy. Same changes as mentioned above. Torc down to collarbone, duds that tapper at the ankles, maybe the shield made a little longer.

I might give the 3d stuff a go too but probably focus on the skinning considering you (and others) are obviously proficient in it's use.

I’ve noticed that my edited TGAs are coming out around 100-200k. The originals were 82K from memory. Will this be a prob. I am saving them as 32bit?

I'd like to see the Gallic skirmisher unit go. Is there anyway we can give the Warband the ability to throw and thrust with spear but charge with sword?

If your looking for a project, and your willing to work with this material, I persoanlly think the the Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’) unit would be the coup de grace for Celtic modding

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’) : (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)

Either that, or see if you can remodel the standard bearer to carry a boar standard and be a similar model to the warband but with cloak (fastened on right and helmet) …and the unit commanders with Boar helmets and…

…but now I’m just getting carried away ~D

Ranika
10-20-2004, 08:17
For colors on Celtic units, there are specific coloring principles to apply. A general rule of thumb is that nobility (so, any 'elite' or 'superior' units, probably), use 'dark' colors, and non-nobles use 'light' colors. Dark blue and red, gold-yellow, black, and white (clearly not part of the rule), are used more by nobles. Light blue and red, gray, brown, and green was used for non-nobles. Mind you, this is only the Iberian-Gaelic color system, though it's noted in two places ('ll try and rummage them up) that Caledonians (and presumably other Britons) used a similar system, and the Gaels, being Iberian and Gaul in origin, used the Iberian system, but the Gauls presumably used a similar system (while not ALWAYS present, certain colors do seem to appear more frequently with nobility, particularly yellows and reds, and some more frequently with the non-nobles.

Also, while the cloaks are noted as being worn by many Gallic warriors, most of them also took them off before a fight. However, there were clear exceptions. Particularly, the early Gaelic ulanacht (Cloakman), and some northern Gallic swordsmen, who both used heavy, full cloaks as a type of defense, by pulling and flaring it in front of them to blind an enemy, while they would stab for the stomach, or neck. The Gaels were well trained in that, those were generally very experienced warriors who trained especially in using cloaks as defense, I'm not certain about the Gauls though, as by some accounts, they were fairly numerous, but then, they could have been a remainder of the Gallic warrior class in the north. I'm not certain if cloaks were used in a similar manner by the southern Gauls, though there were some accounts of it, and numerous gravesites have the heavier cloaks, but it could've also been northern warriors who'd gone to the south to fight.

khelvan
10-20-2004, 09:50
Tonight we distributed 0.10, the alpha build of Europa Barbarorum. I hope you are all as excited about this as I am! If you did not receive a PM from me, you were not on the testing list. If you wish to be, please let myself or Aymar know, and we will contact you. Please note that this build is all about gameplay tweaks; unit changes and new units will be added in later builds.

As you know, testing is not all fun and games. In order to ensure that your testing is valuable to the EB effort, I have a list of areas that need the most feedback. If possible, please record even the most silly of thoughts regarding *each* point while you test. Trust me when I say that all feedback is valuable.

-Battle map: Please let us know how the changes to unit defense and movement play out on the battlefield. Pay special attention to the movement and kill rates, how these changes affect morale and missle combat, and whether or not cavalry needs to be changed (either charge bonus, or bonus for spear weilders vs. cavalry). Also, see if the reduction in movement speed makes units tire too easily now (they tire at the same rate but move slower).

-Naval combat: Is the combat now appropriately lethal? Too lethal?

-Population growth: How do these changes play out? Are tweaks to the economic system needed? (too much cash flowing about?)

-Marian reform: I forgot to note new Imperial Palace building requirements - scriptorium, army barracks, catapult range. Have these tweaks combined with the slower population growth pushed the Marian reforms back a sufficient amount?

-Strategic map: Many factions were tweaked in their initial holdings. Are they appropriately strong (or weak) now? Pay attention to the faction AI - are the historically aggressive factions aggressive in the game, and the meek ones meek?

As faction coordinators start coordinating work on individual factions, we'll be incorporating and asking for feedback on unit changes. For now all units have been affected by an equal amount, and we're just looking at the feel of battles.

Thanks!

-khel

Dead Moroz
10-20-2004, 10:24
I made new texture for Thracian warrior. I used this pic as prototype:
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/2907/thracian_1.jpg
and this for shield design:
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/9580/thracian_2.jpg

That's what I've done:

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/1784/thracian-skin_1.jpg
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/4002/thracian-skin_5.jpg
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/7761/thracian-skin_3.jpg
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/4530/thracian-skin_4.jpg

It's not finished, still making it better. What do you think about it? I'm not sure about shield.

Catiline
10-20-2004, 10:51
Looks good.

The shield is I think, anachronistic, the threacians in the period of RTW used the ocal shield rather than the crescent shaped pelts. That said the pelta looks good, I think the colours are just a bit too primary, dull them down a bit and it's llok great

Ranika
10-20-2004, 11:04
There are some later peltas, but it is true that they were essentially totally replaced by the oval shield. The later ones were maybe for a Thracian duelling tradition, or ceremonies perhaps? They were in very small numbers, so definitely not something used by a Thracian unit (which is really all that matters).

reconspy
10-20-2004, 11:05
That's looking nice Dead Moroz, well done.

1) I think you should use the shield from the first picture.
2) What's up with the face? Does he have a mask on?

Ranika
10-20-2004, 11:07
I think he was reproducing the facial shielding on the mask in the first picture, Thracian helmets, the higher quality ones at least, had an effigy of a man's beard, in metal, to cover the cheeks, chin, and upper lip, though perhaps add some designs to it? Maybe just rivets or some type of 'beard' design (though anything really intricate would really belong more to a noble)

Dead Moroz
10-20-2004, 11:12
That's looking nice Dead Moroz, well done.

1) I think you should use the shield from the first picture.
2) What's up with the face? Does he have a mask on?
1. Don't know how to do it. Need help.
2. I just used original CA's texture for mask. You think it's worth to make that imitation of moustache and beard?

Ranika
10-20-2004, 11:42
It'd look nice, though it'd probably be anachronistic, as such delicate work wouldn't be so common as to be used by whole units, but then, most didn't have swords to use either, so it can be assumed they could also afford the use of a finely crafted and decorated helmet.

reconspy
10-20-2004, 13:35
Here is version 2 of the Arverni Arjos I am working on. I am pretty much finished with it (read: I don't want to edit it anymore). I will put up a link for the dds and cas file for anyone else on the team who wants to play with it.

Thanks to everyone who suggested some changes (including Dead Moroz and PSCYHO V).



* make the torc bigger. I know the pic plays it down a bit but from archeological evidence we know they were very conspicuous.


I made it brighter to stand out a bit, but in terms of gameplay, the torc won't show because the neck area is just too small. You are more than welcome to edit it as you like though.



* Great Helm but squaring off the cheek guards would help a bit


Made it looked more like the source picture as you asked.



* Love the cloak, again great job there. Prob needs a nice bronze / golden broach on that shoulder if poss. and a little longer.


Made the cloak look like the source picture, added the golden broach, and made the cloak longer.



* 'Flesh out' the pants and shirt so as not to appear so tight


Made the pants more baggy.



* Give short boots


Done.



* Golden braclets


The texture resolution for the wrists is too small for anything to look decent. It can be done I suppose, but I'm not going to try. You are welcome to edit it though.



* make the Shield larger


Done, and made it more oval (Dead Moroz)



* Maybe make the pants a dark green tartan pattern to give a little faction colour.


This model is generic, so when we decide to add colours for different factions, that can be done quite easily.



* Would be good if possible, to reduce the flare of the shirt etc below the belt so that it's closer to the leg.


I don't understand.

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front_v2.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_front2_v2.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_shield_v2.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_back_v2.jpg

DDS and CAS in ZIP format. Edit: Zip file updated with all 4 cas files (high, medium, low, lowest)
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos.zip

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 14:19
Currently I'm not working on anything, need an assignment =).
You don't? Well, I'm the one assigning jobs. Check the updated list above. I've divided the people working on the units and descriptions in different factions, according to personal interest. Please PM me if you would like to focus on a different faction. Each faction should have, ideally two or three persons per group. One of the persons of each faction group, must be the one that coordinates the unit work with the EB cargo donkey (that is, ME). I would prefer if you would do it by PM or MSN.

Warning: Take in to consideration that it is best not to start editing skins in PSP or retouching the 3d models in 3DS MAX, without having contacted the other members within each group and deciding what units to start modifying. If you don't coordinate your work amongst yourselves and me, we'll be wasting time and duplicating work.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 14:36
Looks good.

The shield is I think, anachronistic, the threacians in the period of RTW used the ocal shield rather than the crescent shaped pelts. That said the pelta looks good, I think the colours are just a bit too primary, dull them down a bit and it's llok great
I agree with that this shield is wrong. Only Thracian Peltasts should use it. Not Heavy Infantry. Heavy Infantry should use the one in the book pic. The mask looks good except for the darker chin area. Maybe light it up a bit?

BTW, do you want to be in the unit implementation group? I'll add you to the workgroup. :yes:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 14:49
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos_shield_v2.jpg

It looks very good. Very good indeed. :thumbsup:

My only quirck is the shield. It looks assimmetrycal (the top in opposition to the bottom) or is it just me? :confused:


BTW, I've subdivided people in the Unit Implementation and Faction Descriptions groups to stop the dispersion of tasks in that we're incurring at the moment. The groups members must contact each other and exchange ideas about the necessary tasks to fulfill. The spokesperson for each group then reports to me. I do not want to sound tyranical but we need a bit more of organization here. Today I will release the resumed list of Briton an Gallic units to be edited and increased with new units. PM me in case of ANY doubt.

Dead Moroz
10-20-2004, 14:50
I agree with that this shield is wrong. Only Thracian Peltasts should use it. Not Heavy Infantry. Heavy Infantry should use the one in the book pic. The mask looks good except for the darker chin area. Maybe light it up a bit?

BTW, do you want to be in the unit implementation group? I'll add you to the workgroup. :yes:

Think I'll make that beard imitation on helmet.

As for shield, I'm not sure I'll be able to change its shape. It means to change 3d model in 3d max, right? I'm not advanced in 3d graphics. I'll try but if I fail I just send my texture to anyone who can continue this work. OK?

Aymar, you may include me in that group. I'll do my best... But, as I said, I'm not advanced 3d graphics. Just trying to.

@reconspy: Good looking bottom of cloak! ~:thumb:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 14:57
Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
...
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
...
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 01:10 - 10/21/04

Dead Moroz
10-20-2004, 14:58
My only quirck is the shield. It looks assimmetrycal (the top in opposition to the bottom) or is it just me? :confused:
Not just you. I see it too. It looks bad. But I think ancient people (especially barbarians) did not suppose shields to be standards of symmetry. And their shields most likely looked something like these on pic. So I think it's ok.

PSYCHO V
10-20-2004, 15:14
DDS and CAS in ZIP format.
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos.zip

Recon, you've out done yourself mate! Great job! ...now if I could only get those guys to work. What do I need to put where again?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 16:12
As for shield, I'm not sure I'll be able to change its shape. It means to change 3d model in 3d max, right?
AFAIK, the shield and weapons aren't part of the unit, but the unit texture includes a texture for a particular kind of shield. One has to edit the texture as well as changing the shield in the .txt file, but I might be wrong. I hadn't the time to check that yet. I haven't even been able to try Vircingetorix's tools... :bigcry:


I'm not advanced in 3d graphics. I'll try but if I fail I just send my texture to anyone who can continue this work. OK?
Of course. The work can be reassigned or completed by someone else. The best part of this group is that each can contribute with whatever he does best.


Aymar, you may include me in that group. I'll do my best... But, as I said, I'm not advanced 3d graphics. Just trying to.
Keep practicing your skinning. Many units will just need that and no 3d modelling.

khelvan
10-20-2004, 18:57
By popular request, here is the EB v0.1 changelog. Please feel free to correct any historical innacuracies, but remember that we are currently limited in that we cannot add new factions.

I did not record all the minor tweaks I made at the beginning, such as adding a new unit here and there, and tweaking the AI a bit.

-Increased ground unit defensive skill across the board
-Reduced ground unit rates through terrain modifier across the board
-Decreased base farm levels across the board
-Increased attack factor for naval units and decreased defensive skill
-Changed Carthago Nova from Iberia to Carthaginians, changed Cirta from Numidia to Carthaginians, gave Lepcis Magna to Carthaginians
-Added ships to Carthaginian navy, added dinari to Carthaginian warchest, and tweaked Carthage AI
-Changed Samarobriva from Britons to rebels
-Changed Phraaspa to Armenian, changed Kotais to rebels
-Changed Campus Sakae from Parthia to rebels
-Changed Campus Alanni from Scythia to rebels
-Changed Campus Getae from Thrace to rebels
-Changed Bylazora from Macedon to Thrace
-Renamed Spain Iberia
-Renamed Egypt Ptolemaic Empire
-Renamed Greek Cities Aetolian League
-Changed Apollonia from rebels to Aetolian League
-Changed Syracuse from Aetolian League to rebel
-Changed Messana from Scipii to rebel
-Changed Ariminum from Julii to Senate
-Changed Croton from Brutii to Senate
-Changed Libya from Numidia to Ptolemaic Empire
-Changed Cyrenaica from rebels to Ptolemaic Empire
-made all factions except for slave and Senate playable
-Gave slave faction more denari
-Gave senate faction more denari
-Reduced roman navies to one bireme each

The campaign map may still need a few more tweaks to look historical at the beginning, so help there would be appreciated. Especially in the department of making sure the Latin names for each city are used, and the cities are all accurate (for instance, I don't believe Corduba even existed in 270 BC).

chemchok pointed out that it would probably be useful for us to standardize on one difficulty setting or we might get skewed results. I both agree and disagree. I base most of my testing on hard/hard, but it may be useful for us to do it on normal/normal, since the AI gets no bonuses there. Especially for watching battles play out, normal/normal would be best, to not get a skewed view of unit stats.

-khel

Stormy
10-20-2004, 19:30
Wow Wow Wow ! ~D fantastic units guys and great work.

Alert : Agrippa from TWCenter is also making some fantastic new Roman Models I think. Should we draft him in ??? ~:cheers:

He is found here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12623)

Stormy
10-20-2004, 20:28
For those who are working on Thracians & Dacians here is a link of Thracian & Dacian Figures. Peltast , Archers , Warband, Generals and more.

http://www.hat.com/Curr2/bx8069da.jpg

Dacians set #1 (http://www.hat.com/Othr5/Willers18.html)

Dacians set #2 (http://www.hat.com/Othr6/Kris18.html)

.
.
.
.
.

Thracians
http://www.hat.com/Curr/bx8046.jpg

Thracian set (http://www.hat.com/Curr/Test8046.html)

Stormy
10-20-2004, 20:32
I know people have asked me not to post no more Iberians because they have it all down but this link below can provide a little bit more detail. ( huge coloured figures )

Iberians Huge Coloured Figures by HAT (http://www.hat.com/Premier/P32000.html)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-20-2004, 20:50
I know people have asked me not to post no more Iberians because they have it all down but this link below can provide a little bit more detail. ( huge coloured figures )

Iberians Huge Coloured Figures by HAT (http://www.hat.com/Premier/P32000.html)
You can post as long as is doesn't clog the thread with pictures. Preferably only links.

Stormy
10-20-2004, 20:57
Agreed. Links only for now on.

khelvan
10-20-2004, 22:17
Steppe Merc, I can't reply to your PM until you clear out your inbox and sent messages, you are at the message limit.

Everyone keep an eye on your stored messages, they can build up quickly and 8 is a very small number :)

Edit: I think I know what is going on with the download - I believe that only one person can be connected to my yahoo briefcase at a time, at least that is what it looks like. Since there were only 8 or so of you downloading the file I didn't expect this to be a problem, unless someone was spreading the link around (please don't, let me do that).

reconspy
10-21-2004, 00:15
@Aymar de Bois Mauri:
Yes, I hadn't noticed the shield error myself, I'll fix that.

Also, I would like to be included in the Gauls and Briton section.

Also waiting for new assignment (don't want to clash with others working on the same unit).

@Dead Moroz:
Tell me which model unit you used as a base for your skinning and I will add the correct shield for you so you can texture that?

@PSYCHO V:
The CAS goes in the models_unit directory and the DDS goes in the "texture" subdirectory, then just create a new unit entry in the export_descr_unit and descr_model_battle files.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 00:49
@Aymar de Bois Mauri:
Yes, I hadn't noticed the shield error myself, I'll fix that.
Great. :thumbsup:


Also, I would like to be included in the Gauls and Briton section.
OK, but somebody will have to help Stefan and the others when we're dealing with other factions.


Also waiting for new assignment (don't want to clash with others working on the same unit).
Have you read the PM I send? The guys within the same sub-group, will decide the course to take, regarding units. One of them, within each sub-group, will be the group's spokesperson to talk to me. Being in the Gaul and Briton group, will mean that you have to coordinate your work with Vercingetorix and PSYCHO V.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 01:04
I have to apologise to the guys I have nagged earlier about posting historical info in this particular thread. This is because I've been unable to make the several unit guides without any graphical depiction. Therefore, I am going to clog the thread with a lot of Historical pics, but I promisse they are only the essentials to depict correctly what is needed. This info is a concentrated gathering of all that is posted in the EB Colosseum thread. Each post will concern a perticular faction.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 01:52
I've been wondering, how are we going to add oppidia? Is it just going to be stone walls added to the barbarian factions? I'm not certain who all should have them, but I know Celts, clearly, had them, and I'm fairly sure the Germans and Dacians had them, but not 100% on that.

Anyway, is it possible to model a new wall? Oppidia are lower lying than other stone walls. If not, is it at least possible, currently, to reskin the wall? Adding the wooden struts and braces would be nice.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 02:03
This is the post that will serve as guide for the unit graphical modding process for Gauls. This information is a condensation of the several posts, made at the EB Collosseum thread and at others, by several contributors. Not all of the info is definitive.





Graphical information for unit modding purposes - Gauls



Altered Units


All Gallic units must have the characterist paterns, not the incorrect flashy CA stripes…


Give all units (except peasants) a torque around their neck
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps261195.jpg


Barbarian Peasants ------------------------> Gallic Peasants



Warband -------------------------------------> Gallic Warband

Dressed with a long sleeve shirt
Gallic oval shield with a boss and celtic designs
Torque
Moustache, no beard
Spear


Give the ‘Warband’ a shield with a boss (centre bit) running it’s length and include some celtic designs.
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/resources/image/large/ps179137.jpg



Swordsmen ------------------------------------> Gallic Swordsmen

Gallic Helm
Dressed with a long sleeve shirt
Gallic oval shield with a boss and celtic designs
Torque
Moustache, no beard
Celtic longsword


Change all round shields to have a similar boss as mentioned above, remove studs around edges, star burst patterns etc and include some celtic designs. Give the ‘Swordsman’ a Gallic helmet, a long sleave shirt and shield with Celtic designs
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/NHM/Prehist/Collection/Images/Abb22.jpg
http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_products/th_sh054.jpg




https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt1.jpg

Early La Tene warriors, late 5th century BCE
Right, these chaps are slightly earlier than our time period, but I liked it as it showed the clothing and armor quite well, as well as showing that they all have shirts on. The old guy is a chieftan, and notice in addition to his sword he has mutliple spears. The Guy on the left is a well off warrior, while the one on the right is a simple free tribal warrior. All wear checked or striped clothes.



Chosen Swordsmen ---------------------------------> Gallic Noble Swordsmen???

Gallic Boar Helm
Mail-clad (shoulder straps) with a long sleeve shirt underneath
Round shield with a boss and a band of black and white cheque pattern with two dots in each side.
Torque
Remove leg strappings
Moustache, no beard
Celtic longsword


Give the ‘Chosen Swordsman’ a Gallic boar helmet and a chain mail vest (with shoulder straps) over a long sleave shirt. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs. Give the shield a small band of black and white cheque pattern with two dots each side
http://www.celtic-smith.cz/images/prilba2.jpg



Naked Fanatics --------------------------------------> Gaesatae

Gallic helm
Gallic oval shield with a boss and celtic designs or long hexagonal shield???
Torcs + armlets + bracelets + anklets
Moustache, no beard
Barefooted
Javelins + Celtic longsword
Short, spiked with lime or long hair???


Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’)
(Elite Light / Mercenary Infantry)

Iron Helmet with boar crest and black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets, Large well built and naked but for a small flap in ‘faction colours’ at front and back of groin (for the kiddies).

From an excerpt somewhere in the ORG, I've read:
"Cisalpine Gauls wore their short hair spiked with lime - Transalpine Gauls wore their hair long"

If the Gaesatae were from Cisalpine Gaul, was CA right in depicting them as it is? And the shield? Was CA right there too?



https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt2.jpg

Gallic Warriors of the Middle La Tene 35d- 2nd BCE
The naked guy is one of the Gaesatae, actually a tribe that was famous for fighting naked. These would be similar to the Naked Fanatics, but note that he doesn't have the punk rock hairdo. The other foot soldier is frome the Marne district, and again has a shirt. The horsmen has the famous eagle helmet, and it's wings flap as he rides. He is quite well equpiied , and has iron mail. This would probably be a noble unit, but not that of the generals. Note the two javilens.

Great Celtic warrior by wayne reynolds, Gasati charging romans

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Celtfan_WarriorCeltWar.jpg



Druid -----------------------------------------------------> Gone



Skirmisher Warband ----------------------------------> Gallic Skirmishers

Dressed with a long sleeve shirt
Small round shield with a boss
Torque
Moustache, no beard



Forester Warband -----------------------------------> Gallic Archer Warband???

Moustache, no beard
Torque


Remove the beard from the Forester Warband.


Barbarian Cavalry -------------------------------------> Gallic Cavalry

Gallic helm???
Dressed with a long sleeve shirt
Round shield with a boss and celtic designs
Torque
Moustache, no beard
Javelin + Celtic longsword???



https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt3.jpg

Gallic Cavlarymen of the Late La Tene period, 1st century BCE
Some more Cavalry men. They again, all have shirts. They are more poor soldiers, their helms actaully being scavenged from Romans. In the desc there's an excellent part of Celtic horse strategy:
"These riders would normally throw their javelins immediately before contact; the heavier thrusting spear would be used at close quaters, and finnaly the sword might be drawn"
In the back, there's a dude with a celtic war trumpet that has a boar on it, possibly inspiring CA's choice to have on the unit flag of the Gauls a boar.



Barbarian Noble Cavalry ----------------------------> Gallic Noble Cavalry???

Gallic Raven Helm
Mail-clad (shoulder straps) with a long sleeve shirt underneath
Round shield with a boss and celtic designs
Torque
Moustache, no beard


Give the ‘Noble Cavalry’ a Gallic raven Helmet, Short sleave chain mail shirt over a long sleave shirt and cloak fastened at shoulder with broach. Keep mow but remove beard and strappings around lower legs.
http://www.lastsquare.com/MiniCatalog/Largefigs/lftmp-15.jpg



Wardogs ---------------------------------------------> The same



Early Gaul Warlord ---------------------------------> The same

Similar to Gallic Noble Cavalry



Gaul Warlord----------------------------------------> The same

Similar to Gallic Noble Cavalry



Barbarian Cavalry Merc --------------------------> The same???





Replace the unit flag with a boar standard, unit leader with an infantry version of:

http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/images/54mm_Heavy_Gallic_Cavalry_5.jpg

Add hornblower
http://arquebus.com/trad_90mm/JW90152.jpg





New Units



LIGHT INFANTRY




Senone Slingers : (Light Infantry)

Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back.



Aquitanian Archers: (Light Infantry)

Shorter darker hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers in ‘faction colours’ and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield.



Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’): (Light Infantry)

Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword.



MEDIUM INFANTRY




Southern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield with Celtic swirl design.



Northern Warband: (Medium Infantry)

Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield.



Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’): (Medium Infantry)

Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides.



Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’.



Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, naked chest, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield.
http://www.hobby-online.com/g1204.jpg



HEAVY INFANTRY




Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Heavy Infantry)

Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak in ‘faction colours’ gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield.
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltNob_WarriorCeltWar.jpg



Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors): (Elite Heavy Infantry)

Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield.



CAVALRY



Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’): (Medium Cavalry)

Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic in ‘faction colours’ over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield with cheque pattern, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword.



Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’): (Heavy Cavalry)

Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield.




MERCENARIES




Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’): (Elite Medium / Mercenary Infantry)

Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield.




We must solve the conflicting characteristics, as well as deciding what are the units that will be added to the game. Not all of them can be. We could bother not to modify the standard units and just replace them with the specific ones mentioned by PSYCHO V. But we need pictures of those units and that decision needs to be discussed.

Let me now what you think.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 02:17
The Gaesatae shield should actually be somewhat rectangular, with slightly curved out sides, but the top and bottom should be straight edged. Some did use hexagonal shields, but those were mostly trading or copying Germanic styles. The Gaesatae's shields, usually, tended to be oval-like, or rectangular with round edges. We could keep the original shield, as it'd not be truly anachronistic, but rather, unlikely, that a whole unit would have them, but it would simplify things. Most Gaesatae did not spike their hair, to my knowledge, but I'm sure many did, so that'd work either way too.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 02:23
I've been wondering, how are we going to add oppidia? Is it just going to be stone walls added to the barbarian factions? I'm not certain who all should have them, but I know Celts, clearly, had them, and I'm fairly sure the Germans and Dacians had them, but not 100% on that.

Anyway, is it possible to model a new wall? Oppidia are lower lying than other stone walls. If not, is it at least possible, currently, to reskin the wall? Adding the wooden struts and braces would be nice.
If we can change the mesh of the 3d units and there is an editor laying around in the game (there really is one), I think it will be possible. At least if the walls are CAS files.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 02:26
The Gaesatae shield should actually be somewhat rectangular, with slightly curved out sides, but the top and bottom should be straight edged. Some did use hexagonal shields, but those were mostly trading or copying Germanic styles. The Gaesatae's shields, usually, tended to be oval-like, or rectangular with round edges. We could keep the original shield, as it'd not be truly anachronistic, but rather, unlikely, that a whole unit would have them, but it would simplify things. Most Gaesatae did not spike their hair, to my knowledge, but I'm sure many did, so that'd work either way too.
So, it will come down to personal preference? Then it might serves us not to change the unit much...

Ranika
10-21-2004, 02:31
Right, it just comes down to if you want the hexagonal shield, which, while unlikely, isn't truly ahistorical, and there were enough of them that the spiked out hair wouldn't be an impossibility. It'd come down probably just to reskinning them, if we went really simple with it, and the unit looks decent enough, in that case, shape wise, just a matter of maybe adding some designs to their shield? Could add a helmet, though, too, if it were remodelled slightly, a lot of Gaesatae did 'cannabilize' helmets from enemies, so it wasn't uncommon for them to have helmets either.

Another slight note for skinning purposes, some did paint themselves, though a lot actually just used mud, and use that as camoflauge sometimes, though that occured rarely. For paint, it was more a smattering of unorganized smears in whatever dyes were available, to make them look somewhat surreal, cause even in the ancient world, art noveau was so ugly it was terrifying.

reconspy
10-21-2004, 03:03
@Vercingetorix and PSYCHO V:

What are you guys working on at the moment? I don't want to duplicate anything. BTW PSYCHO V, your private messages box is full, I can't reply.

Edit: I also updated the zip file with all 4 cas files (high, medium, low, lowest). However, as we can't edit the sprites, the unit looks slightly more red when zoomed out to the max.

I've also made the shield more vertically symmetrical as suggested by Dead Moroz and Aymar.

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos.zip

Who will be creating the new units, stat wise?

Colovion
10-21-2004, 03:58
Right, it just comes down to if you want the hexagonal shield, which, while unlikely, isn't truly ahistorical, and there were enough of them that the spiked out hair wouldn't be an impossibility. It'd come down probably just to reskinning them, if we went really simple with it, and the unit looks decent enough, in that case, shape wise, just a matter of maybe adding some designs to their shield? Could add a helmet, though, too, if it were remodelled slightly, a lot of Gaesatae did 'cannabilize' helmets from enemies, so it wasn't uncommon for them to have helmets either.

Another slight note for skinning purposes, some did paint themselves, though a lot actually just used mud, and use that as camoflauge sometimes, though that occured rarely. For paint, it was more a smattering of unorganized smears in whatever dyes were available, to make them look somewhat surreal, cause even in the ancient world, art noveau was so ugly it was terrifying.

I vote for at the very LEAST changing their shields for a different flavour. I dont' want to overload the skinners.

The samnite
10-21-2004, 05:19
Hello all, I've listened in on this project for a while now and I love the direction it's going in. I was wondering if could help out doing some skinning (maybe modelling) for it. I'm kind of new to the mod scene, but I think that's where I'd fit in best. I've already started on some Dacian units so if I could work in that area that'd be great. Thanks

Stormy
10-21-2004, 05:51
Great site I just found guys. :charge:

Here check it out (http://www.thelonelymountainforge.com/)

Vercingetorix
10-21-2004, 05:57
Ok guys I'm currently working on the Gallic warband and the Bodubatae. I've been bogged down with school (2 midterms and a final this week) and so time for modding is almost zero. Probably tommorow I'll have the Gallic warband mostly completed so Psycho can get to work skinning it. Reconspy they're looking awseome, I love em. I can add the torc if you want but it's really only noticble upclose. Still, more so then textured on. A sun medallion would be awseome and I can do that if you want, not sure if that's part of the design (in the picture though).

Edit Psyco unfortunatly I don't think it is possible to have 3 weapons that is sword spear and throwing spear. Only a scondary and primary weapon, however I could be mistaken. Also I was wondering if the averni arjos were to have a sword?

reconspy
10-21-2004, 06:34
Sure thing V, check your private messages.

PSYCHO V
10-21-2004, 07:53
Ok guys I'm currently working on the Gallic warband and the Bodubatae. I've been bogged down with school (2 midterms and a final this week) and so time for modding is almost zero. Probably tommorow I'll have the Gallic warband mostly completed so Psycho can get to work skinning it.

Great stuff.


Psyco unfortunatly I don't think it is possible to have 3 weapons that is sword spear and throwing spear. Only a scondary and primary weapon, however I could be mistaken. Also I was wondering if the averni arjos were to have a sword?

Yes. Ok, we can try and give the Arverni and Bodubatae a special ability whereby they act as a Phalanx (albeit with just spears not pikes etc) but with that ability ‘off’, as swordsman?

So what do you guys think about the Warband? Have an ability to throw spears and then resort to sword eg. Romans ..or should they forgo the secondary sword and throw and thrust with spear? I’d probably lean toward the former if we could get them to march with those throwing spears in hand until otherwise engaged with sword.

PSYCHO V
10-21-2004, 08:03
@Vercingetorix and PSYCHO V:

What are you guys working on at the moment? I don't want to duplicate anything. BTW PSYCHO V, your private messages box is full, I can't reply.


Inbox cleared out a bit.

As far as further development, I think a lot depends on two things.

1) Whether we can add special abilities for the Warband and a few other units as previously mentioned.

2) If we can train region specific troops? If we can’t, I think khelvan mentioned that we could add region specific mercs?

If we can effect those two things, then seeing as reconspy has already done some fine work with the Arverni, we should work on this list if khelvan and others think they could make them work in the build lists etc:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


THE GAUL FACTION

· Add the following region specific Gallic troops
. Give all units a leader (like Roman units) dressed like the Arverni (see below) but with sword, Boar helmet.
. Change standard to be a golden / Bronze Boar
. Change all standard bearers to Southern Warband (see below) with simple iron bowl helmet and tri swirl cheek guards.
. Add Carnyx blower with same attire to the ‘Captain’ (Non faction relation general) unit
. Give the unit ‘Captain’ (Non faction relation general) a conical type helmet (similar to the ‘Barbarian General’ unit) with black plume and cheek guards.



LIGHT INFANTRY


Senone Slingers : (Light Infantry – remodelled slingers)

Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Dubious Morale under heavy casualties
(Long plated hair, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, Sling, Pellet pouch slung over shoulder, Short Celtic Sword, Very small buckler usually slung over back).
These adept skirmishers can hurl lead slugs at high speed over good distances. They are particularly good at attacking lightly armed troops. They can fight with sword if forced, but they prove to be ineffective in hand-to-hand warfare.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)


Aquitanian Archers: (Light Infantry – remodelled Foresters)

Average Valour, Easily Fatigued, Low Morale
(Shorter darker hair, Gallic moustache, torque, long sleave shirt to thigh over trousers in ‘faction colours’ and tied around waste with belt, shoes, bow, quiver of arrows hung off left hip, short Celtic sword, No Shield). These troops come from the smaller, more passive tribes of Southern Gaul. Good at showering the enemy with archery fire, they will soon run if engaged in hand to hand fighting.
(Can be raised in Southern Transalpine Gaul)


Bodvoritus (‘Running Wrath’): (Light Infantry – remodelled Swordsman)

Extremely Impetuous, Extremely Undisciplined, Good Morale, Very Good Stamina, Good Attack
(Long flowing hair, naked tattooed torso, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, chequered trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, arm guards, dirk and medium length (Halstatt) sword).
The ‘Bodvoritus’ tend to come from the Brannovice (‘frenzied ones’) tribe. The Brannovice were a client to the Aedui and were renown for their berserk behaviour in battle. They would drink a ‘magical’ potion before entering battle which gave them ‘special’ courage, stamina and protection from the pain of wounds. Once worked up into a frenzy, they would often fight in a similar fashion as the Picts some centuries later. Working in pairs, one would throw themselves on the enemy’s weapon whilst the other struck the encumbered down.
(Can be raised from Transalpine Gaul)



MEDIUM INFANTRY


Southern Warband: (Medium Infantry – remodelled Briton Warband)

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Shorter hair to nape of neck and spiked up with lime, Gallic moustache, torque, bangle around each wrist, naked chest, cloak fastened at right shoulder by broach, tartan trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, rounded rectangular shield with Celtic swirl design)
The Southern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Northern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They throw their spears before charging home with sword and have a good initial assault.
(Can be raised anywhere in Cisalpine Gaul and Celtiberia)


Northern Warband: (Medium Infantry – In progress [Verci / Psycho])

Impetuous, Above Average Valour, Easily Fatigued.
(Long hair platted, Gallic moustache, torque, naked chest, armlets, bangle around each wrist, trousers in ‘faction colours’, shoes, spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield)
The Northern Gallic Warband are cheap and quick to raise. Along with the Southern Warband they provide the bulk of the Gallic force. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears before charging home with sword. Sapping Ability
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)


Veneti Bagaudam (‘Guerrilla Fighters’): (Medium Infantry – remodelled Swordsman)

Disciplined, Average Valour, Dubious Morale, more easily achieve ambushes, receive bonus to attack when directly from ships or at night.
(Bronze helmet with thin horns, short dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, short sleave shirt in ‘faction colours’ with chequered borders to thigh over trousers and tied around waste with belt, short boots, spear, Celtic sword, strange squarish shield with wavy sides).
The Veneti (‘Clansmen’) were a maritime tribe that traded and raided the oceans centuries before the first Vikings. They were adept guerrilla fighters who excelled in using the terrain to their advantage / sneaking up on their enemies. They also excel at ambushes, night and amphibious operations.
(Can be raised from Veneti (Armorica) Territory)
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/Veneti.jpg


Dubis Dusios (‘Black Demons’): (Elite Medium Infantry – remodelled Chosen Swordsman)

Impetuous, Very High Valour, Good Stamina, Very High Morale, Good Attack
(Bronze bowl helmets adorned with purple crest, short dark hair, shaggy black (goatskin like) shoulder-less tunic to above knee bound by thick Iberian belt, arm guards, greaves made of the same black material wound around shins and carves, excellent quality iron short two edged swords, dirk, Celtic oval shield in ‘faction colours’).
The ‘Dubi Dusios’ are Elite Celtiberian warriors from Spain. They are chosen from among the ranks for their skill, fitness and bravery in battle. Though rough and ready, these Celtiberians are fierce ferocious fighters that can hold their own against almost any opposition.
(Can be raised from Celtiberian ‘Gaul’)


Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry – remodelled Gallic Warband)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory / Gallic Capital)




HEAVY INFANTRY


Arverni Arjos (‘Nobles’): (Heavy Infantry – In progress [reconspy / stats for unit implementation])

Good Discipline, Low Valour, Easily Fatigued, Good Morale
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, wrist guards, shirt of mail over long sleeve tunic gathered by belt at waist, tartan cloak in ‘faction colours’ gathered on right shoulder with broach, trousers, short boots, long thrusting spears, long Celtic sword, oval shield).
The Arverni (‘Superior Ones’) are a large powerful tribe who have become extremely wealthy through trade with the Mediterranean. As such, they have a large body of nobility who are afforded the time and wealth to prepare well for battle.
The Arverni Arjos sport the finest equipment available and train daily in its use. They can form a testudo or shield wall quickly and prove to be sturdy force in any line of battle.
(Can be raised from Arverni Territory, post Marian reforms if possible)



Carnute Cingetos (‘Warriors): (Elite Heavy Infantry – remodelled Druid Warrior)

High Valour, High Morale, Good attack, Cause Fear against other Gallic units, Large Additional Valour and Morale Bonus against non-Celtic factions.
(Iron helmet with forward facing horns, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, stripped trousers in ‘faction colours’, Royal Blue cloak fastened on breast, short ankle boots, Long Celtic Sword, Round Shield).
These ‘Cincetos’ are Elite fighters who hail from the land of the Carnutes, the heart of the Druidic religion in Gaul. As Druids, they invoke the Gallic god Cernunnos (‘The Horned One’ hence the helmets) to give them courage in battle. Trained in the Druidic schools and Carnute military colleges, they are extremely expensive to raise but are fanatical volunteers that will fight to the death, especially against non-Celtic factions. (Can be raised from Carnute Territory)



CAVALRY


Leuce Epos (‘Light Horse’): (Medium Cavalry – remodelled Gallic cavalry)
Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Morale
(Iron bowl Helmet with tri swirl cheek guards, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, armlets, bangle around each wrist, long sleave tunic in ‘faction colours’ over trousers and tied at waist by belt, shoes, round shield with cheque pattern, throwing spears, long Celtic Sword).
The Gallic ‘Leuce Epos’ constitute the bulk of Gallic cavalry. The term ‘Leuce’ was applied more due to their swiftness of foot than their equipment. Able to either throw or thrust with spears before engaging with sword, they form an effective mobile force.
(Can raise from any Celtic Area)


Brihentin (‘Elite Cavalry’): (Heavy Cavalry – remodelled Gallic Noble Cavalry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Excellent Attack
(Iron ‘Gallic’ helmet with faction-coloured plume, long hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, chain mail shirt over long sleeve tunic gathered at waist by belt, trousers in ‘faction colours’, cloak fastened on right shoulder by broach, short ankle boots, medium spear / lance, long Celtic Sword, Round shield).
The ‘Brihentin’ are chosen from among the tribe’s nobility for their prowess in battle. These troops are well armed and experienced in battle. They are trained to couch their lance before closing with their long swords. Extremely expensive to raise, they prove invaluable to any astute War-chief.
(Can be raised anywhere in Transalpine Gaul)



MERCENARIES


Gaesatae (‘Spearmen’): (Elite Light / Mercenary Infantry – remodelled old larger barbarian unit eg. Standard bearer)

Impetuous, High valour, Easily fatigued, Good Morale, Very Good Attack, Long spear throwing range.
(Iron Helmet with boar crest and black horse hair trail, long hair, Gallic moustache, Long Hexagonal Shield, throwing spears, Long Celtic Sword, large golden torque, armlets, bracelets and anklets, Large well built and naked but for a small flap in ‘faction colours’ at front and back of groin (for the kiddies)).
These are a group of elite warriors that have left their tribal allegiances to sell their services to the highest bidder. They believe their nakedness allows their fighting mogo to flow.
(Can be hired from Gallic Territory)


Ordocorii (‘Hammer Troops’): (Elite Medium / Mercenary Infantry)

Disciplined, Good Valour, Good Stamina, Average Morale
(Short Horned (Thames styled) helmet, Long dark flowing hair, Woaded face and arms, Gallic moustache, Golden torque, Heavy Wrist guards, Sleeveless shirt and vest of chain mail over trousers, belt at waist, Tartan cloak, shoes, heavy war hammer, round shield)
The Ordocorii come from the Ordovices (‘Those that fight with hammers’), a Briton tribe situated on the Western coast of the Isle (Wales). They lack central government and tend to seek fortune where-ever they may find it, willingly crossing the channel to offer their services to their Gallic cousins.
They invoke the Celtic god Sucellus (‘Hammer god’) prior battle and tend to possess an acute hatred of Rome.
(Can be hired from any Gallic coastal province)


Mori Gaesum (‘Sea of Spears’): (Elite Heavy / Mercenary Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Very Good Morale
(Tall spiked iron helmets, long dark hair, Gallic moustache, torque, arm guards, red tunic with chequered borders gathered with belt over trousers, cloak same colour as trousers, shoes, Pikes, long Celtic sword, large rectangular shield with rounded edges)
The ‘Mori Gaesum’ are mercenaries raised from among the Helvetii (Swiss). These Helvetians were very well organised into units with good leadership and discipline. Of all the Gauls, they were the most experienced and effective in the employment of the Phalanx. Much like other Gallic tribes that use close formation tactics, they will drop their spears once the enemy formation is broken and charge home with the sword.
(Can be hired from Helvetii territory)


Teutones: (Elite Light / Mercenary Cavalry – remodelled German cavalry)

Disciplined, Excellent Valour, Good Stamina, Excellent Morale
(Hair dyed red and in pony tail, full beard, naked chest, short cloak, trousers, shoes, throwing spears, small square shield)
The Teutones are German Mercenaries willing to cross the Rhine and sell their blood for gold and glory. Equipped with sturdy Gallic mounts, they are fast and ferocious and can often outfight more heavier armed opponents.
(Can be hire from border areas with Germans / German territory)




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone have a prob with this list? (haven’t had any feedback?). Main things to note is the omission of the ‘skirmishers’ (pending the spear throwing ability of the warband) and retention of the Druids (albeit in a historical context). If all are ok with this then I suggest we stick to this list and start work on each of the units.

I’ve noticed that my edited TGAs are coming out around 100-200k. The originals were 82K from memory. Will this be a prob. I am saving them as 32bit?

Thoughts on these guys?:Northern Warband (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/GaulWarband.jpg)
May give them a blander shield and give the more eilte units this one?

my2bob

Vercingetorix
10-21-2004, 08:41
Got your pm reconspy, ok made a quick sword. Texture is not great, it's up to you guys to keep it or throw it out if keep I can refine everything a lil.

http://img69.exs.cx/img69/1088/averni_sword.th.jpg (http://img69.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img69&image=averni_sword.jpg)

http://home.earthlink.net/~axel44/arverni_arjos2.tga.zip

Edit: You're saving them as tgas? Save them as dds this will save alot of texture memory.

Dead Moroz
10-21-2004, 08:48
@Dead Moroz:
Tell me which model unit you used as a base for your skinning and I will add the correct shield for you so you can texture that?

I used default (CA's) model for Thracian warrior. Just changed texture.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 09:03
While artwork seems to depict Gallic swords as having wider blades, about the same width as a Roman gladius, actually, most of the surviving models (but not all) have them with slightly thinner blades, on longswords. The shortswords do, however, have the wider blade. Look for the Roman spatha, it has a blade of similar width (about a 1.5 inches wide), as opposed to the shortsword widths that are about 2+ inches wide.

khelvan
10-21-2004, 09:07
We can only have two weapons per unit, not three, unfortunately, and that is hard coded. I don't think that is something CA will ever adjust.

So then the current behavior you can get is something like the Roman units with pila exhibit. I would love to have the legions be able to set their pila against a charge, but from what I can tell they basically use pila for throwing and the gladius as the melee weapon. Now we can simulate effects through stats, but visually I believe for now they'll be swinging their melee weapons after the battle is joined hand to hand, and forget their spears/pila.

I will start working on limiting units by province. I know it is possible via hidden resources, but I would like to find a more elegant way to do so.

Special abilities, I'm not clear on yet. This will require more research. I'll look into this stuff while the current gameplay tweaks are being tested.

reconspy
10-21-2004, 09:45
@Vercingetorix:
Looking good V, can't wait for the improved torc and sun medallion. The sword and the sheath look good.

@Dead Moroz:
I've edited the Thracian warrior to have the oval shield, and changed the corresponding tga file. You can edit the texture file to your liking. You can download it here:
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/thracian.zip

If you have any problems, just let me know.

@PSYCHO V:
Am I doing the stats for the Arverni Arjos or is someone else responsible for that? I've already made the unit card and unit info picture, and know how to implement everything for the unit in the single player game, but I think I will leave that to someone else?

Dead Moroz
10-21-2004, 10:08
I tested EB alfa yesterday. Didn't play much but already have some suggestions.

1. In campaign_descriptions.txt change: "Ptolemains" -> "Ptolemies", "Aetolians" -> "Greeks" (Aetolians are just inhabitants of one of Greece' regions). Add descriptions for other factions (I used edited mod by Luvian, jpinard and Siblesz from TW Center):

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_ARMENIA_TITLE}Armenians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_ARMENIA_DESCR}In the 6th century B.C., Armenians settled in the kingdom of Urarty (the Assyrian name for Ararat), which was in decline. Under Tigrane the Great the Armenian empire reached its height and became one of the most powerful in Asia, stretching from the Caspian to the Mediterranean Seas. Throughout most of its long history, however, Armenia has been invaded by a succession of empires. Under constant threat of domination by foreign forces, Armenians became both cosmopolitan as well as fierce protectors of their culture and tradition.\n\n
Now no longer under the empire of Alexander the Great, Armenia could become an empire of it's own once more...

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_DACIA_TITLE}Dacians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_DACIA_DESCR}Dacia occupies a section of Eastern Europe corresponding roughly to modern Romania (including Transylvania). It was inhabited before the Christian era by a people who were called Getae by the Greeks and were called Daci by the Romans. They were a people of advanced material culture, with a tribal organization. Though tribal in nature, the Dacians had attained a considerable degree of civilization by the time they first became known to the Romans.\n\n
King Burebista (a contemporary of Julius Caesar) thoroughly reorganized the Dacian army, and subsequently raised the moral standard of the entire people. Under his rule, the limits of the Dacian kingdom were extended to their maximum. The Bastarnae and Boii were conquered, and even the Greek towns of Olbia and Apollonia on the Black Sea (Pontus Euxinus) fell into his hands.\n\n
Indeed the Dacians appeared so formidable that Caesar contemplated an expedition against them... something his death prevented. About the same time, Burebista was murdered, and the kingdom was divided into four (or five) parts under separate rulers. One of these was Cotiso, whose daughter Augustus is said to have desired to marry and to whom he betrothed his own five-year-old daughter Julia.\n\n
The Dacians are often mentioned under Augustus, according to whom they were compelled to recognize Roman supremacy. However they were by no means subdued, and in later times seized every opportunity of crossing the frozen Danube during the winter and ravaging the province of Moesia. \n\n
Your role as the Dacian Leader is to take this region and create a true dynasty. However, this will not be easy. The mighty Greeks and Barbaric Germans are within striking distance, not to mention Rome has its eyes set to subdue you at the first chance they get.

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_NUMIDIA_TITLE}Numidians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_NUMIDIA_DESCR}Numidia is an ancient country of Northern Africa, very roughly situated around modern Algeria. It was part of the Carthaginian empire until Masinissa, ruler of East Numidia, allied himself (c.206 BC) with Rome in the Punic Wars. After the Roman victory over Carthage led to peace in 201 BC, Masinissa was awarded rule of all Numidia. This began Numidia's most flourishing period, culturally and politically.\n\n
During the Second Punic War, its two great tribes divided, one supporting the Romans and the other the Carthaginians. The tribal chief Masinissa was made king of Numidia after the Roman victory in 201 BC. After the destruction of Carthage, thousands fled to Numidia, which became a Roman province in 46 BC. Its capital was Cirta, and the chief city was Hippo, which was the see of St. Augustine later. After its conquest by the Vandals in AD 429, Roman civilization there declined rapidly; some pockets of native culture survived, however, and even continued after the Arab conquest in the 8th century.\n\n
Your role as the Numidian Leader will be difficult. You've been a toy of the Carthaginians and pawn of the Romans for the last hundred years. Trade and Defense will be early priorities to ensure the Numidians have a fighting chance.

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_SCYTHIA_TITLE}Scythians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_SCYTHIA_DESCR}In a literal sense the Scythians were one of many ancient nomadic tribes dwelt in steppes on huge area between Danube on the west and Chinese borders on the east. In wide sense "the Scythians" was ancient name for all these nomadic tribes because they had very similar way of life and culture.\n\n
The Golden Age of the Scythians began in 7th century BC when they became dominating nation in the nothern Black Sea region and conquered large territories in the Middle East. In the end of 6th century BC they defeated the invasion of Persian king Darius I in their land. The Scythians were very aggressive, they frequently raided their neighbours. Among ancient nations the Scythians were considered as perfect horsemen and archers. Many of them were mercenaries.\n\n
In 3th century BC began the decline of Scythian hegemony. In the west they had troubles with Celts and Thracians, in the east they were oppressed by Sarmatians. Gradually the Scythians were forced out to the area of the lower Dniepr and the Crimea. A pair centuries later they dissapeared from the historic scene.

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_SPAIN_TITLE}Iberians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_SPAIN_DESCR}The original people of the Iberian Peninsula, consisted of a number of separate tribes, but are given the generic name "Iberians". The most important culture of this period is that of the city of Tartessos. Beginning in the 9th century BC, Celtic tribes entered the Iberian peninsula through the Pyrenees and settled throughout the Peninsula, becoming the Celt-Iberians. The seafaring Phoenicians, Greeks and Carthaginians successively settled along the Mediterranean coast and founded trading colonies there over a period of several centuries.\n\n
Around 1,100 BC Phoenician merchants founded the trading colony of Gadir near Tartessos. In the 8th century BC the first Greek colonies, such as Emporion, were founded along the Mediterranean coast on the East, leaving the south coast to the Phoenicians. The Greeks are responsible for the name Iberia, after the river Iber. In the 6th century BC the Carthaginians arrived in Iberia while struggling with the Greeks for control of the Western Mediterranean. Their most important colony was Carthago Nova (Latin name of modern day Cartagena).\n\n
The Romans arrived in the Iberian peninsula during the Second Punic war in the 3nd century BC, and annexed it under Augustus after two centuries of war with the Celtic and Iberian tribes and the Phoenician, Greek, and Carthaginian colonies becoming the province of Hispania. Some of Spain's present languages, religion, and laws originate from this Roman period.\n\n
Your role as the Iberian Leader is one of great difficulty. You have the anxious Britons to the North of you, the Gaul's splitting you in two, and the mighty Carthaginians to the South. Only through cunning diplomacy, proficient trade and a good military can you hope to take on the might of the Roman Empire.

{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_THRACE_TITLE}Thracians
{IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_THRACE_DESCR}At the dawn of history the ancient Thracians — a group of tribes speaking Indo-European language, once extended as far west as the Adriatic Sea, but were pushed eastward (c.1300 BC) by the Illyrians. In the 5th century BC they lost their land west of the Struma River to Macedon. In the North, however, Thrace at that period still extended to the Danube. Unlike the Macedonians, the Thracians did not absorb Greek culture, and they steadfastly clung to their language and culture.\n\n
The Thracian Bronze Age was similar to that of Mycenaean Greece, and the Thracians developed high forms of music and poetry. However their savage form of warfare led the Greeks to consider them barbarians. As the Greeks expanded into Thrace, they exploited Thracian gold and silver mines, and then recruited Thracians for their own infantry. Thrace was reduced to vassalage by Persia from c.512 BC to 479 BC, and Persian customs were then introduced.\n\n
Thrace was united as a kingdom under the chieftain Sitalces, who aided Athens during the Peloponnesian War, but after his death in 428 BC, the state again broke up. By 342 BC all Thrace was held by Philip II of Macedon, and after 323 BC most of the country was in the hands of Lysimachus. It fell apart once more after Lysimachus' death in 281 BC, and it was conquered by the Romans late in the 1st century BC.\n\n
Your role as the Thracian Leader will be challenging. Battered by the Greeks for centuries, you've just come into your own and must use your small terriotry and Black Sea access to build an empire.

2. Add leader's portrait and map for every faction (except Senate and rebels) on faction selection screen. I made map for original RTW version so they represent default positions of factions. Use it as temporary variant. When we finally decide the question of factions' start positions I make new maps.
Download rar archive. (http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/lead-pics_and_maps.rar)

3. Use expressions "Aetolian League city", "Aetolian League family member", "Aetolian League navy", etc. instead of "Aetolian city", "Aetolian family member", "Aetolian navy", etc. Because "Aetolian" means just inhabitants of one Greek region.

4. Edit errors with rebel unit names and pictures in new rebel regions. Also edit rebel's names (there are tragladitos now in Getae; amazons are still in Hiperborea).

5. I don't agree to reduce farm's income. The original is small enough. I play with large unit size and very hard difficulty and think that we should increase farm's income or/and reduce units' maintain cost to play with largest unit size for battles to be really epic.

6. Make new map using "Total Realism" mod features - add Corsica, Raetia and Caledonia.

7. Move Campus Scythii to Black Sea coast and rename to "Olvia" (or "Olbia" - not sure about proper English spelling).

8. Some suggestion on current factions' start positions:
- Give Tribus Sarmatae to rebels.
- Give Mauretania to Carthage
- Give Dimmidi to rebels
- Give Numidia to Numidia. It's illogical that Numidia belongs to Carthage while there is independent Numidian state. Of course it would be ideal if we could make Numidia protectorate of Carthage at the start of the game.

9. Rename "Domus Dulcis Domus" (to "Vilnius" :clown:). And maybe "Bylazora", it sounds like anachronistic later Slavic name - something like "White Lake" (not sure completely).

10. I prefer my own settings of units' speed. I found EB version too slow. Also better setting of speeds on different ground types required. My suggestion:


grass_short 0.9
grass_long 0.9
sand 0.75
rock 0.9
forest_dense 0.75
scrub_dense 0.8
swamp 0.7
mud 0.75
mud_road 0.85
stone_road 1.0
water 0.5
ice 0.55
snow 0.65

11. I use reducing kill speed mod I found on TW Center. Imho it's better then EB variant: combat last a bit longer, hoplites acts much better against cavalry. So EB version of units' stats must be reworked.

12. I didn't find any changes in naval battles. Is it just me?

Dead Moroz
10-21-2004, 10:16
@Dead Moroz:
I've edited the Thracian warrior to have the oval shield, and changed the corresponding tga file. You can edit the texture file to your liking. You can download it here:
http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/thracian.zip

If you have any problems, just let me know.
Thank you! :bow:
BTW, how to replace unit icon and description picture in the game?

reconspy
10-21-2004, 10:35
Thank you! :bow:
BTW, how to replace unit icon and description picture in the game?

1) Edit the Data/Text/export_units.txt

For example:
{arverni_arjos} Arverni Arjos

{arverni_arjos_descr}
Arverni Arjos description

{arverni_arjos_descr_short}
Arverni Nobles

2) Edit the Data/export_descr_unit_enums.txt

For example:
arverni_arjos
arverni_arjos_descr
arverni_arjos_descr_short

3) Create corresponding pictures in the Data/UI/Unit_Info and Data/UI/Units folders/

For example:
Data\UI\UNIT_INFO\GAULS\arverni_arjos_info.tga

and

Data\UI\UNITS\GAULS\#arverni_arjos.tga

Grab Gauis Julius' Realism mod over at the twcenter to see how he has edited the game. Just take some time to look at how all the .txt files were changed. It's quite easy. If you still have problems, let me know.

Dead Moroz
10-21-2004, 10:50
@reconspy
If I understand right the folder Data/UI does not present in the game's location. It is being created when exe file start the game and extract pack files. Right?
So, my question. I create UI folder manually. Then start the game. Will it replace my files in UI folder with files from pack?

reconspy
10-21-2004, 13:36
@Dead Moroz:
I am not sure. You can try, but if it doesn't work, just extract the pak file, it's no trouble at all.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 13:40
Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
...
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 20:20 - 10/21/04

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 14:32
Right, it just comes down to if you want the hexagonal shield, which, while unlikely, isn't truly ahistorical, and there were enough of them that the spiked out hair wouldn't be an impossibility. It'd come down probably just to reskinning them, if we went really simple with it, and the unit looks decent enough, in that case, shape wise, just a matter of maybe adding some designs to their shield? Could add a helmet, though, too, if it were remodelled slightly, a lot of Gaesatae did 'cannabilize' helmets from enemies, so it wasn't uncommon for them to have helmets either.

Another slight note for skinning purposes, some did paint themselves, though a lot actually just used mud, and use that as camoflauge sometimes, though that occured rarely.
We want to know the most common look because that is what we have to mod. As you know, RTW doesn't allow variety within a unit.



For paint, it was more a smattering of unorganized smears in whatever dyes were available, to make them look somewhat surreal, cause even in the ancient world, art noveau was so ugly it was terrifying.
Art noveau?!!! LOL :grin:

Salazar
10-21-2004, 14:34
After having done some Testing Work i would make the following suggestions

1. Increase Unit Hps for all Units to have Battles last longer, increase Attack of Missiles to have them still be a serious threat

2. Use Movement Modifiers something like that:


grass_short 0.85
grass_long 0.80
sand 0.75
rock 0.70
forest_dense 0.60
scrub_dense 0.65
swamp 0.35
mud 0.65
mud_road 0.90
stone_road 1.00
water 0.40
ice 0.45
snow 0.55

This makes Rough land the Enemy of all organized Formations just as it was in reality thus making the Terrain more important.

Why Making Swamp THAT bad?
Because actually Water slows you down but you normally know what you stand on, in swamp you have to be veryveryvery carefull or try doing it by trial and error as you never knoe if the Ground before is actually ground or just a bit of Mud swimming on the Water.

3.
Kick the following Units

Amazons
Headhurlers
Gaulish Forrester Warband
Druids
All Egyptian Chariots
Headhunting Maidens (scyhtians)
Skirmisher Warband (For Gauls Britons and Germans)
Berserkers
Legionary Cav
Praetorian Cav
Urban Cav

4.
Add Elephants to Egypt

5.
Make the Units

Warband (for Gauls and Britons)
Swordsmen (for Gauls Britons and Germans)
Chosen Swordsmen (for Gauls Britons and Germans) capable of throwing Javelins (1/2 each)

6.
Boost Barb Peasants a bit


7.
Add Corsica Caledonia and Raethia (spelling?)

8.
Give Numidia to Numidia but give other Carthaginian Provinces more Trade goods ( if yet possible)

9.
Let Numidia start as Protectorate of Carthage (possible??)

10. Use Dead Moroz's Skin for Thracians

11. Use TigerVX's Skins for the Ptolemaic Troops

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 14:44
Edit: I also updated the zip file with all 4 cas files (high, medium, low, lowest). However, as we can't edit the sprites, the unit looks slightly more red when zoomed out to the max.
Now that you've mentioned it, we must pay attention to faction colors, or else some units won't be distiguishable in the battlefield.


I've also made the shield more vertically symmetrical as suggested by Dead Moroz and Aymar.

http://members.optushome.com.au/reconspy/arverni_arjos.zip
Great work, reconspy!!!


Who will be creating the new units, stat wise?
The persons who best know the level of that particualr unit and the person that will integrate that info in the txt files (me, khelvan or someone with that kind of experience).

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 14:45
I vote for at the very LEAST changing their shields for a different flavour. I dont' want to overload the skinners.
IMHO, you're right. Since they are Gauls (although mercs), they should be the most distiguished possible from the Germanic tribes. The shield seems too Germanic.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 14:45
Aymar de Bois Mauri, alright, most common... Well, that's still a little tricky. There were so many that took helmets that you could argue that they should have helmets. If you really want to do them right though, I'd say, give them a few javelins (so, of course, model some javelins in there with them, and throwing animations), or a spear, and a longsword. The shield, one of two ways that can go for a 'common' look.

A. The oval shield, common, used by pretty much all Gauls and a ton of other people.

B. The 'rectangular' shield, though, the veritical edges should bulge a bit.

These two shields were most common, after that is the hexagonal shields, more than likely German imports, then rectangular shields with rounded corners, and then large round shields. So, A or B would do the trick. If you want some uniformity, I'd recommend A, but the Gaesatae were rather outstanding from the other Gauls, so for sake of making them seem less uniform, I'd go with B.

As for body paint, a lot did it, a lot didn't, that's up to skinners, though, it's probably better not. Since it was supposed to be random smatters, and not a design, it'd not look right to have a whole unit of men who somehow miraculously smeared dye on themselves the same way.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 14:53
Great site I just found guys. :charge:

Here check it out (http://www.thelonelymountainforge.com/)
The Lonely Mountain Forge??? :inquisitive:

Dwarven Guardian Mask???...... :inquisitive:

Sorry, Stormy, but it is a little to Tolkienish to this thread... :wink2:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 15:00
Ok guys I'm currently working on the Gallic warband and the Bodubatae. I've been bogged down with school (2 midterms and a final this week) and so time for modding is almost zero. Probably tommorow I'll have the Gallic warband mostly completed so Psycho can get to work skinning it.
OK. Those two units are your department. No need to rush though. And, please, pay attention to the problem of faction colors.


Edit Psyco unfortunatly I don't think it is possible to have 3 weapons that is sword spear and throwing spear. Only a scondary and primary weapon, however I could be mistaken. Also I was wondering if the averni arjos were to have a sword?
Yes, you're right. Only two weapons. IIRC, the most we can get is a (spear + longsword) or (throwing spear + spear) or (throwing spear + longsword) combination for the Averni Arjos.

Stormy
10-21-2004, 15:06
hehe No no of those but the site does have these

Celtic Boii Helmet
http://www.thelonelymountainforge.com/celtic22.jpg

Bah, you know what I mean ~;)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 15:10
Yes. Ok, we can try and give the Arverni and Bodubatae a special ability whereby they act as a Phalanx (albeit with just spears not pikes etc) but with that ability ‘off’, as swordsman?
What do you mean? The phalanx ability off?

For the animation, no problem. They only need to use the hoplite animation.

As for turning the phalanx off, it's possible, as long as we can mod the special ability button to another function.


So what do you guys think about the Warband? Have an ability to throw spears and then resort to sword eg. Romans ..or should they forgo the secondary sword and throw and thrust with spear? I’d probably lean toward the former if we could get them to march with those throwing spears in hand until otherwise engaged with sword.
Nope. The Warband, as it is, does not posses the ability to throw their spears. They can only use the spear.

If we want them to use (throwing spear + sword) they best way is for them to use the legionaire animation.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 15:21
hehe No no of those but the site does have these

Celtic Boii Helmet
http://www.thelonelymountainforge.com/celtic22.jpg

Bah, you know what I mean ~;)
LOL :grin: Just pulling your leg... :joker:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 15:23
As far as further development, I think a lot depends on two things.

1) Whether we can add special abilities for the Warband and a few other units as previously mentioned.
We can.


2) If we can train region specific troops? If we can’t, I think khelvan mentioned that we could add region specific mercs?
We can. We haven't found how just yet.


If we can effect those two things, then seeing as reconspy has already done some fine work with the Arverni, we should work on this list if khelvan and others think they could make them work in the build lists etc:

Anyone have a prob with this list? (haven’t had any feedback?).

The most important now is not the regions for training of units, it's the graphical depiction.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 15:43
I tested EB alfa yesterday. Didn't play much but already have some suggestions.

1. In campaign_descriptions.txt change: "Ptolemains" -> "Ptolemies", "Aetolians" -> "Greeks" (Aetolians are just inhabitants of one of Greece' regions). Add descriptions for other factions (I used edited mod by Luvian, jpinard and Siblesz from TW Center):
Of course. That is probably just something that slipped khelvan's mind.


2. Add leader's portrait and map for every faction (except Senate and rebels) on faction selection screen. I made map for original RTW version so they represent default positions of factions. Use it as temporary variant. When we finally decide the question of factions' start positions I make new maps.
Download rar archive. (http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/lead-pics_and_maps.rar)[QUOTE=Dead Moroz]
This is an Alpha development version, you know? Those things can be implemented later.

[QUOTE=Dead Moroz]3. Use expressions "Aetolian League city", "Aetolian League family member", "Aetolian League navy", etc. instead of "Aetolian city", "Aetolian family member", "Aetolian navy", etc. Because "Aetolian" means just inhabitants of one Greek region.
Correct.


4. Edit errors with rebel unit names and pictures in new rebel regions. Also edit rebel's names (there are tragladitos now in Getae; amazons are still in Hiperborea).
Most fantasy is going in to the trash. That will be taken care.


5. I don't agree to reduce farm's income. The original is small enough. I play with large unit size and very hard difficulty and think that we should increase farm's income or/and reduce units' maintain cost to play with largest unit size for battles to be really epic.
It is a point that I discussed with khelvan. But for now we're just trying new things.


6. Make new map using "Total Realism" mod features - add Corsica, Raetia and Caledonia.
Why use "Total Realism" features? This is the EB MOD. We will modify the map according to History, not according to other MODs.


- Give Numidia to Numidia. It's illogical that Numidia belongs to Carthage while there is independent Numidian state. Of course it would be ideal if we could make Numidia protectorate of Carthage at the start of the game.
I would like that too. But I'm not sure if it is possible.


9. Rename "Domus Dulcis Domus" (to "Vilnius" :clown:). And maybe "Bylazora", it sounds like anachronistic later Slavic name - something like "White Lake" (not sure completely).
You want to use Slavic to depict a city name before the slavs appeared on the scene? That is NOT an Historical approach and this MOD is all about that.


10. I prefer my own settings of units' speed. I found EB version too slow.
Nope. Sorry. I still find them too fast.


11. I use reducing kill speed mod I found on TW Center. Imho it's better then EB variant: combat last a bit longer, hoplites acts much better against cavalry. So EB version of units' stats must be reworked.
Still need to compare.


12. I didn't find any changes in naval battles. Is it just me?
Ask khelvan...

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 16:04
After having done some Testing Work i would make the following suggestions

1. Increase Unit Hps for all Units to have Battles last longer, increase Attack of Missiles to have them still be a serious threat.
That is one of the things I discussed with khelvan. But there are some reasons for avoiding to temper with the HP. Increasing the HP across the board (as an example +3), will mean that every unit takes 3 times more to destroy. While good, it has it's disadvantages. The max HP for units is 15. Generals have 15HP. You can't give them more through txt editing, only with V&V within the game itself. This means that every unit will be 3 times harder to kill except the Generals, who happen to be already particular vulnerable AI-wise. Percentually, the generals will be much more vulnerable than before.


2. Use Movement Modifiers something like that:


grass_short 0.85
grass_long 0.80
sand 0.75
rock 0.70
forest_dense 0.60
scrub_dense 0.65
swamp 0.35
mud 0.65
mud_road 0.90
stone_road 1.00
water 0.40
ice 0.45
snow 0.55

This makes Rough land the Enemy of all organized Formations just as it was in reality thus making the Terrain more important.

Why Making Swamp THAT bad?
Because actually Water slows you down but you normally know what you stand on, in swamp you have to be veryveryvery carefull or try doing it by trial and error as you never knoe if the Ground before is actually ground or just a bit of Mud swimming on the Water.
Swamp shouldn't be so slow. Why? I'll give you an example: in snow, many times, you don't know were you're walking either. There is the chance of an hole, a crevase, etc... even when you think you're in a flat field.




3.
Kick the following Units

Amazons
Headhurlers
Gaulish Forrester Warband
Druids
All Egyptian Chariots
Headhunting Maidens (scyhtians)
Skirmisher Warband (For Gauls Britons and Germans)
Berserkers
Legionary Cav
Praetorian Cav
Urban Cav
This is an ALPHA version!!! We're in the beggining. That will be taken care of.


4.
Add Elephants to Egypt
And Greek Phalanxs and Companion-style Cavalry, etc...

As I've said before, the first units included will be Gauls, Britons and Germanics. The rest will follow.


5.
Make the Units

Warband (for Gauls and Britons)
Swordsmen (for Gauls Britons and Germans)
Chosen Swordsmen (for Gauls Britons and Germans) capable of throwing Javelins (1/2 each)
Those units are in reformulation. Be patient.


6.
Boost Barb Peasants a bit
Why?


7.
Add Corsica Caledonia and Raethia (spelling?)
We're not changing the map just yet.


8.
Give Numidia to Numidia but give other Carthaginian Provinces more Trade goods ( if yet possible)
That is work in progress.


9.
Let Numidia start as Protectorate of Carthage (possible??)
We would like that. Not sure if it is possible just yet.


10. Use Dead Moroz's Skin for Thracians
As I've said before - be patient. His work on that unit isn't finished yet.


11. Use TigerVX's Skins for the Ptolemaic Troops
We will. He hasn't posted in these last few days. But those units still need work too.

hormiga
10-21-2004, 16:12
Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

.Spartan over at twcenter has done some pretty extensive testing with the navies. He basically found that by increasing build times (+75% I think) and reducing defense values you could get around the "mega fleets" problem.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11196
I still feel that the navies need to be redesigned (remove some of the bigger ships, maybe use a fleet concept?) but this works fine until a better solution comes along.

Also check out his AI changes (both are included in the D/L on the first post, they are designed to work with the Total Realism mod though...)

Hope you dont mind me posting here, just wanted to point out some things that might save you some time and testing! :bow:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 16:14
Aymar de Bois Mauri, alright, most common... Well, that's still a little tricky. There were so many that took helmets that you could argue that they should have helmets. If you really want to do them right though, I'd say, give them a few javelins (so, of course, model some javelins in there with them, and throwing animations), or a spear, and a longsword. The shield, one of two ways that can go for a 'common' look.

A. The oval shield, common, used by pretty much all Gauls and a ton of other people.

B. The 'rectangular' shield, though, the veritical edges should bulge a bit.

These two shields were most common, after that is the hexagonal shields, more than likely German imports, then rectangular shields with rounded corners, and then large round shields. So, A or B would do the trick. If you want some uniformity, I'd recommend A, but the Gaesatae were rather outstanding from the other Gauls, so for sake of making them seem less uniform, I'd go with B.
Then the shield is already correct. What about the hair?


As for body paint, a lot did it, a lot didn't, that's up to skinners, though, it's probably better not. Since it was supposed to be random smatters, and not a design, it'd not look right to have a whole unit of men who somehow miraculously smeared dye on themselves the same way.
And that will avoid confusion with the current Woad Warriors (that will be remodeled too).

Ranika
10-21-2004, 16:36
I'm sorry, I was unclear. The rectangular shield, I mention, is not the current shield, which has multiple straight edges. It's shaped more like an oval, with the top and bottom flattened out, I believe it's in the picture with the three Gallic warriors, where only one is a Gaesatae. As for the hair, if exposed, it would depend on where they're available. If you want the Gaesatae available in the south of Gaul only, it should be spiked and lyed blonde, if in the north, no, should be in plats or simply worn long and rather disarrayed. If all over Gaul, I'd say yes to spiking, to ease modelling.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 16:41
.Spartan over at twcenter has done some pretty extensive testing with the navies. He basically found that by increasing build times (+75% I think) and reducing defense values you could get around the "mega fleets" problem.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11196
I still feel that the navies need to be redesigned (remove some of the bigger ships, maybe use a fleet concept?) but this works fine until a better solution comes along.

Also check out his AI changes (both are included in the D/L on the first post, they are designed to work with the Total Realism mod though...)

Hope you dont mind me posting here, just wanted to point out some things that might save you some time and testing! :bow:
If it is of any contribution, not at all. Thank you for the info. We will study it. :bow:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 16:46
I'm sorry, I was unclear. The rectangular shield, I mention, is not the current shield, which has multiple straight edges. It's shaped more like an oval, with the top and bottom flattened out, I believe it's in the picture with the three Gallic warriors, where only one is a Gaesatae.
OK. Now I see. We don't have one, but as you can see from the Arveni Arjos post by reconspy, it is possible to make a similar one to the three Gauls pic.


As for the hair, if exposed, it would depend on where they're available. If you want the Gaesatae available in the south of Gaul only, it should be spiked and lyed blonde, if in the north, no, should be in plats or simply worn long and rather disarrayed. If all over Gaul, I'd say yes to spiking, to ease modelling.
I'm thinking of only allowing them to be hirable in Cisalpine Gaul. Therefore, the spiked lime hair will fit just fine.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 17:03
That's just as well, and would fit with a lack of body paint, as the remaining nude warriors in Cisalpine Gaul, I don't believe, painted themselves. The rare occurences of them in the north do tend to say a lot were painted up, but then, possibly was influence from the Britons.

hormiga
10-21-2004, 17:03
We can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
2) If we can train region specific troops? If we can’t, I think khelvan mentioned that we could add region specific mercs?

We can. We haven't found how just yet.

Gaius Julius at TWCenter knows how and is currently working on adding this aspect to the TR mod (in the same vein as the MedMods "homelands concept).

Im sure he would be happy to tell you how to properly use the hidden_resource command.

Salazar
10-21-2004, 17:08
@Aymar: Didn't want to sound impatient. I just suggested some (as i thought) relativeley easy changes, as i said didn't want to sound impatient, if i did, sorry...

Mr. Juice
10-21-2004, 18:19
I installed the alpha yesterday and played a few hours with Macedon. I had Notepad open, and I alt-tabbed to it any time I had any relevant feedback for the game. Here are the notes I took:

Macedonia description - awkward first paragraph

impressions of first battle vs brigands
I enjoy the change in movement speed. Not drastic, but noticeable. Feels more realistic. Don't think I'd lower it much more if at all.
Improved defence - was paying too much attention to micromanaging cavalry to notice. However, at end of battle, i did notice i had a few more militia hoplites around than i expected.

impressions of first siege vs rebels (stone walls)
two bad side effects of the decreased movement rate:
- one unit of archers on their walls ensured that one unit of merc hoplites and one unit of milita hoplites were at half strength before reaching walls. Both units were reduced to single digits before getting out of missle range after abandoning their rams. In addition, 20 units from a unit of levy pikemen were killed before reaching the walls with siege tower.
- Two battering rams were destroyed before reaching the gates. In a normal game I would think that at least one of them would have made it with one unit of archers and walls firing at 2 rams and 2 siege towers

impressions from first large battle against Greece
Nothing major, but did notice I paused less. Not sure if its from the decreased movement or increased defence, but it was nice none the less. However, I do think that the cavalry charges may need to be toned down a hair. Although I'm likely not used to using a cavalry unit that has a 15 charge! (light lancers)

After reading them over as well as other's comments, I suggest the following:

- Different movement speed for different terrain
I remember using the terrain to my advantage much more in Medieval. I pretty much ignore it now.

Decrease missle attack values
- Archers are already extremely effective in vanilla RTW. Reduced movement speeds only amplify this.

- Increase the damage that siege equipment can take
Again, side effect of decreased movement rate.

- Try incrementing defence up a little more in the next version
I didn't really notice any benefit of the +2 defence. However, I do think that augmenting defence will likely be the best way to decrease kill rates. I agree with Aymar's comments about increasing hit points, and on the TWCenter boards many people have animation problems with mods that adjust the rate of attack.

Ranika
10-21-2004, 18:37
After playing with the alpha for a while, I second the increase of Defense a little more, but because of that, I recommend keeping the missile attack values what they are. Missile troops should be a big threat, making using cavalry to combat them a more important strategy.

I didn't notice any real change in naval combat.

If the damage siege equipment can take can be increased, I'd much like that. I find it upsetting how speedily my rams and towers collapse, and the slower speeds does make it more of an issue (though base RTW I feel had this problem anyway)

khelvan
10-21-2004, 19:02
Everyone who is testing and providing suggestions based on the testing, READ THIS:

1) First and foremost, Europa Barbarorum aims to be historically accurate. ALL decisions are made in that light. When making a suggestion, please cite a source which supports your suggestion, preferably from a period map or reputable historian, ideally from a primary period source.

2) Europa Barbarorum will not be copying things from other modifications. It has been in development for at least six months and while we respect the work of other mods we have our own goals, objectives, and ideas of how to get there, and an existing body of work.

3) When testing and making suggestions, please do it in the light of end results. For battles, what you like about the battles, what you don't like. Provide specifics about why things aren't working, and what you think the results should look like. Those of us working on the battles and such have a good idea right now of what data can be tweaked and what can't be, and are playing with the methods to get to a more acceptable -end result- and game play. Let us know if the results are what they need to be, and if we need help on the methods to get there, we'll ask. :)

4) Last, but not least, thank you. All of you.

As you can see from point 1) above, it is time to get tough. Pedantic posts are always welcome.


1. In campaign_descriptions.txt change: "Ptolemains" -> "Ptolemies", "Aetolians" -> "Greeks" (Aetolians are just inhabitants of one of Greece' regions). Add descriptions for other factions (I used edited mod by Luvian, jpinard and Siblesz from TW Center):
I will make your correction of Ptolemies; I know little of the Ptolemaic Empire.

However, I do not accept your suggestion to name the Aetolians the Greeks. The Seleucids, the Macedons, and really most of the factions around the Aegean and beyond are all successors of Alexander's empire, and are more or less ALL Greek. How is it any more -historical- to call ONE of these factions "Greek" when they ALL are? We might as well toss out all the factions and just have five or so big ones, including Roman, Greek, Barbarian...do you see my point?

Historically, the Aetolian League and Sparta fought bitterly against Macedon and the Achaean league. Macedon should not control Corinth, the Achaean League should. Macedon in its current representation is both Macedon -and- the Achaean League, so it makes sense for her rival to be called the Aetolian League. I added cities that I believe were historically under the banner of, or in league with (forgive the pun), the Aetolian League. For instance, Pyrrhus of Epirus fought Macedon with a vengeance, on behalf of the Greek cities in question. If you can show me how I should not have particular cities in this faction, or how the faction is improperly named, I will change it.

However, why in the world would you tell me to rename the Aetolian League to Greek and not, for instance, Macedon?

Keep in mind that we cannot currently add factions, we must make do with what we have.


2. Add leader's portrait and map for every faction (except Senate and rebels) on faction selection screen. I made map for original RTW version so they represent default positions of factions. Use it as temporary variant. When we finally decide the question of factions' start positions I make new maps.
Download rar archive. (http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/lead-pics_and_maps.rar)
Yes, this will come. However, it makes no sense to do the map at least until we have all of the new provinces we will be making.

Edit: removed section to avoid confusion


4. Edit errors with rebel unit names and pictures in new rebel regions. Also edit rebel's names (there are tragladitos now in Getae; amazons are still in Hiperborea).
Give me specific edits, and I will make them.


5. I don't agree to reduce farm's income. The original is small enough. I play with large unit size and very hard difficulty and think that we should increase farm's income or/and reduce units' maintain cost to play with largest unit size for battles to be really epic.
You may not like the outcome here. Population growth is still too high in my opinion. Cities should not be growing at 10% a year (5% every 6 months) in a representation of the Classical world. Growth is too quick, population needs to be reduced more. We may consider decreasing unit costs proportionately across the board to allow for larger armies, but population will continue to be a limiting factor. One faction should not be able to conquer most of the Mediterranean in 20 years.

The problem is the effects that will have on the AI, which will probably empty its cities of people if unit costs are cheap. Thus we face a delicate balancing act.


6. Make new map using "Total Realism" mod features - add Corsica, Raetia and Caledonia.
See point 2) above. We will be adding a great many new provinces, but we will not be copying them from another mod.


7. Move Campus Scythii to Black Sea coast and rename to "Olvia" (or "Olbia" - not sure about proper English spelling).
I am more concerned about the Latin spelling, not English. Find me its Latin name and I will do so, though someone else doing the graphics end will have to play with the map to make it look right.


8. Some suggestion on current factions' start positions:
- Give Tribus Sarmatae to rebels.
- Give Mauretania to Carthage
- Give Dimmidi to rebels
- Give Numidia to Numidia. It's illogical that Numidia belongs to Carthage while there is independent Numidian state. Of course it would be ideal if we could make Numidia protectorate of Carthage at the start of the game.
Please show me a map that supports giving Tribus Sarmatae to the rebels, and I will do it.

I do not think Mauretania should go to Carthage. While Carthage did have control over some of the coastline to the northwest of Tingi, she did not have control over the majority of the province. If you think that is enough, I can do so, but I will not be giving Numidia to the Numidians regardless of name. It is illogical to give a province to a faction simply because they share a similar name, I prefer to do what is historical, and as the Carthaginians had subjugated the numidian tribes it would make intuitive sense that they should own Numidia. In any event, every map I see of 270 BC has Carthage controlling almost the entire area of RTW's Numidia. There is no reason to give it away. At the time in question Numidia did not exist as an independent state.

Also, for what reason should I give Dimmdi to the rebels?


9. Rename "Domus Dulcis Domus" (to "Vilnius" :clown:). And maybe "Bylazora", it sounds like anachronistic later Slavic name - something like "White Lake" (not sure completely).
If we are renaming cities, we'll be inserting historical ones with Latin names in their place. I agree the silly stuff has to go.


10. I prefer my own settings of units' speed. I found EB version too slow. Also better setting of speeds on different ground types required. My suggestion:

Please explain why you feel the unit speed is too slow. Be specific!


11. I use reducing kill speed mod I found on TW Center. Imho it's better then EB variant: combat last a bit longer, hoplites acts much better against cavalry. So EB version of units' stats must be reworked.
This is the very first build of the mod, with our very first tweaks. There was never any question that unit stats would be reworked after the release of this build. In fact, we will probably still be tweaking unit stats and battle settings months from now. If you wish your feedback to be valuable to our effort, please rephrase it in terms of end results. I see a bit of it here - you think combat needs to last longer, and hoplites need to act better against cavalry.

However, you need to explain this in more detail. Why, specifically, do you think combat is off? What, specifically is off with the length of combat - do units die too fast? Break too quickly? Does the movement speed put them into engagements too quickly? What, specifically, is wrong with how the hoplites act against cavalry?


12. I didn't find any changes in naval battles. Is it just me?
Attack factors have been increased, defense decreased. They should be more lethal. Much more lethal.


1. Increase Unit Hps for all Units to have Battles last longer, increase Attack of Missiles to have them still be a serious threat
I appreciate the suggestion, but for a number of reasons that go beyond the scope of this reply editting the HPs to do that is a bad idea. What, specifically, do you see wrong with the battles at the moment (kill rate, morale breaking, or what) and how would you like it to look once we are done editting?

Don't worry, we will make adjustments on the back end to make it happen; Tell us what your objective is and leave the details of how to get there to us ;)


2. Use Movement Modifiers something like that:

This makes Rough land the Enemy of all organized Formations just as it was in reality thus making the Terrain more important.

Why Making Swamp THAT bad?
Because actually Water slows you down but you normally know what you stand on, in swamp you have to be veryveryvery carefull or try doing it by trial and error as you never knoe if the Ground before is actually ground or just a bit of Mud swimming on the Water.
Don't worry, I merely adjusted movement rates across the board to get a base reference point. Once we have acceptable movement for grassland, for instance, I will adjust the others accordingly to be more accurate. For now, let's worry about the base movement on normal terrain, and get that just right as a calibration point. We can fine tune the rest later, though your suggestions on upping the movement cost on rough terrain and swamp are appreciated.


3. Kick the following Units
Unit changes will come in a later build, based on what each faction's coordinator has found to be historically accurate. These units will be dealt with on a faction by faction basis and some may be taken out of the game completely.

There have been and will continue to be discussions about specific factions, where these units will be discussed. I am sure they will take your suggestions into account there.


6. Boost Barb Peasants a bit
What, specifically, is wrong with this unit, and what in historical literature are you referencing to say this - what do you want the end result to be?


7. Add Corsica Caledonia and Raethia (spelling?)
Province changes will definitely happen in the near future. Rest assured that these and many more will come.


8. Give Numidia to Numidia but give other Carthaginian Provinces more Trade goods ( if yet possible)
Aside from the name, can you show me a map or a historical source that indications "Numidia" should go to the numidian tribes, who were subjugated by Carthage during this time?


9. Let Numidia start as Protectorate of Carthage (possible??)
I do not believe this is possible.


.Spartan over at twcenter has done some pretty extensive testing with the navies. He basically found that by increasing build times (+75% I think) and reducing defense values you could get around the "mega fleets" problem.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11196
I still feel that the navies need to be redesigned (remove some of the bigger ships, maybe use a fleet concept?) but this works fine until a better solution comes along.

Also check out his AI changes (both are included in the D/L on the first post, they are designed to work with the Total Realism mod though...)

Hope you dont mind me posting here, just wanted to point out some things that might save you some time and testing! :bow:
"mega fleets" are not a problem. "mega fleets" are historical. I am in favor of lowering build times for ships across the board. They should be quick to build and readily available. Connolly states that both Carthage and Rome, at least, mass produced entire fleets. Rome built a several hundred ship fleet in one month. Mega fleets should stay.

Ships need to be redesigned, but there will be bigger and better ships coming. The basic bireme and trireme were small ships compared to some of the huge galleys that fought in naval battles in the classical period. If we can find the information at least one type of smaller, faster ship will be added, since some "factions" used them.

On the AI changes, see 2) above. I have read Spartan's work and I appreciate what he has accomplished, but we as a mod team are happy to test our own changes and tweaks so that we can produce historical results based on the research we have done.


Gaius Julius at TWCenter knows how and is currently working on adding this aspect to the TR mod (in the same vein as the MedMods "homelands concept).

Im sure he would be happy to tell you how to properly use the hidden_resource command.
Amyar is mistaken, I can do this with hidden resources. I was looking for a different solution, based on requirements. In any event units will be restricted, just as they were in MedMod for MTW. If I am not mistaken some of the members of EB contributed to the development of MedMod, so you will see similarities in design philosophy.


- Different movement speed for different terrain
I remember using the terrain to my advantage much more in Medieval. I pretty much ignore it now.

Decrease missle attack values
- Archers are already extremely effective in vanilla RTW. Reduced movement speeds only amplify this.

- Increase the damage that siege equipment can take
Again, side effect of decreased movement rate.

- Try incrementing defence up a little more in the next version
I didn't really notice any benefit of the +2 defence. However, I do think that augmenting defence will likely be the best way to decrease kill rates. I agree with Aymar's comments about increasing hit points, and on the TWCenter boards many people have animation problems with mods that adjust the rate of attack.
Thank you, lots of valuable feedback here.

From my understanding, missle units were devastating in the classical period. Do you think they are too lethal? We will be going over all the units and tweaking them, so we will take this into consideration, especially the siege changes.

Pay attention to how the units fight at the moment. In the next build we will be trying something drastically different to affect combat. So keep your impressions fresh in mind as you play, so the differences will be clear.

Also, for battle testing, we may want to set up some basic custom battles to be used as test beds. Something to consider.

chemchok
10-21-2004, 20:06
Quote:Originally Posted by Dead Moroz
3. Use expressions "Aetolian League city", "Aetolian League family member", "Aetolian League navy", etc. instead of "Aetolian city", "Aetolian family member", "Aetolian navy", etc. Because "Aetolian" means just inhabitants of one Greek region.

Unless you can show me why I should not also rename all of the other Greek factions in this manner, I believe this to be a mistake.

IMHO, if we are going to replace the Greek Cities faction with the Aetolian League then we should use the term Aetolian League to denote navies, cities, etc. The terms Ptolemy and Seleucid refer to a dynasty - the term Aetolian refers to a geographical region, not a political power. If we could add factions and make Rhodes, Sparta, Aetolia, etc. separate factions but strong allies at the outset of the game (much like the Roman factions) then it would make sense to use the term Aetolian when referring to the League (like Polybius does). Since we can't do this and have to use the Aetolian League as a vague concept bonding all of the Greek cities into a playable faction, then let's use "Aetolian League" consistently as a descriptive.

hormiga
10-21-2004, 20:09
"mega fleets" are not a problem. "mega fleets" are historical. I am in favor of lowering build times for ships across the board. They should be quick to build and readily available. Connolly states that both Carthage and Rome, at least, mass produced entire fleets. Rome built a several hundred ship fleet in one month. Mega fleets should stay.

Ships need to be redesigned, but there will be bigger and better ships coming. The basic bireme and trireme were small ships compared to some of the huge galleys that fought in naval battles in the classical period. If we can find the information at least one type of smaller, faster ship will be added, since some "factions" used them.

On the AI changes, see 2) above. I have read Spartan's work and I appreciate what he has accomplished, but we as a mod team are happy to test our own changes and tweaks so that we can produce historical results based on the research we have done.



The problem that was encountered with "megafleets" (ex: Greeks owning 3 citites but having 6 full stack fleets) is that the AI bankrupts its self by pumping out huge fleets. For whatever reason many AI factions tend go heavy navy (this seems to be hard coded) regardless of the situation on land. This can really castrate the AI (greeks, macedonia, carthage esp.) since the AI doesnt use its fleets very effectively anyway.

Spartan basically achieved a way to focus the AI on land battles (although it still does just fine at sea). Naval combat still needs alot of work... but I think this is a vast improvement over vanilla RTW.

Im not trying to offend or suggest that you cant test your ideas as well as other modders.... just wanted to point out that many people have addressed various game balance issues that you guys are just starting to address. While you may not agree with how they did it, you should at least pay heed, all the people I mentioned are just as determined to make the game more "real" as you are.

khelvan
10-21-2004, 20:22
IMHO, if we are going to replace the Greek Cities faction with the Aetolian League then we should use the term Aetolian League to denote navies, cities, etc. The terms Ptolemy and Seleucid refer to a dynasty - the term Aetolian refers to a geographical region, not a political power. If we could add factions and make Rhodes, Sparta, Aetolia, etc. separate factions but strong allies at the outset of the game (much like the Roman factions) then it would make sense to use the term Aetolian when referring to the League (like Polybius does). Since we can't do this and have to use the Aetolian League as a vague concept bonding all of the Greek cities into a playable faction, then let's use "Aetolian League" consistently as a descriptive.

Thank you for the explanation - I originally misread what Dead Moroz was saying in this section. Please forgive my lack of reading comprehension. I will make these changes.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 20:53
Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
...
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 20:53 - 10/21/04

khelvan
10-21-2004, 21:14
The problem that was encountered with "megafleets" (ex: Greeks owning 3 citites but having 6 full stack fleets) is that the AI bankrupts its self by pumping out huge fleets. For whatever reason many AI factions tend go heavy navy (this seems to be hard coded) regardless of the situation on land. This can really castrate the AI (greeks, macedonia, carthage esp.) since the AI doesnt use its fleets very effectively anyway.

Spartan basically achieved a way to focus the AI on land battles (although it still does just fine at sea). Naval combat still needs alot of work... but I think this is a vast improvement over vanilla RTW.

Im not trying to offend or suggest that you cant test your ideas as well as other modders.... just wanted to point out that many people have addressed various game balance issues that you guys are just starting to address. While you may not agree with how they did it, you should at least pay heed, all the people I mentioned are just as determined to make the game more "real" as you are.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not personally offended. This may not apply to you, but it seems that people do not understand that RTR and EB are completely different mods, with different design philosophies, and are not in competition (at least I believe that as a whole we in EB do not feel competitive). So I've been trying to get that point across as much as possible. I've seen your name pop up in the RTR threads pointing them to EB, and here pointing us to RTR, and I just wanted to make it clear that our mods will never be one in the same, and we will continue to move in different directions. Though I, for one, certainly appreciate the attempt to help us both out.

With respect to the fleet build time, I was still a part of RTR when that was implemented and I know for a fact it was not due to the AI overbuilding ships (at least not at the time). If Spartan has made AI changes which seem to counterbalance this overbuilding I can't recall seeing it, so if you can point me to a post which states this I would love to read it. As I recall his work had to do with the two AI parameters set for each faction, which was great work, but I recall nothing about how the AI weighs building units, especially naval units.

In any event I am of the mind that any gameplay problem can be attacked in different ways, and even though one solution may seem like a good one if it puts historical accuracy aside for the sake of gameplay, I am inclined to look for other solutions to the problem. It may be tough to do so, for instance in the case of simply upping build times for ships, but to me that is a real problem because ships were quick and easy to build in the Classical world, and I would prefer to test just about anything else rather than an ahistorical solution to the problem.

Cheers,

-khel

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 22:05
Gaius Julius at TWCenter knows how and is currently working on adding this aspect to the TR mod (in the same vein as the MedMods "homelands concept).

Im sure he would be happy to tell you how to properly use the hidden_resource command.
You're sure? I'm not... :wink:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 22:09
@Aymar: Didn't want to sound impatient. I just suggested some (as i thought) relativeley easy changes, as i said didn't want to sound impatient, if i did, sorry...
Only a little. :wink:

No problem. The things you've mentioned are, for the most part, planned. I want those changes too. And sooner rather than later. But we're still in a very early stage.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 22:34
I installed the alpha yesterday and played a few hours with Macedon. I had Notepad open, and I alt-tabbed to it any time I had any relevant feedback for the game. Here are the notes I took:

Macedonia description - awkward first paragraph

impressions of first battle vs brigands
I enjoy the change in movement speed. Not drastic, but noticeable. Feels more realistic. Don't think I'd lower it much more if at all.
Improved defence - was paying too much attention to micromanaging cavalry to notice. However, at end of battle, i did notice i had a few more militia hoplites around than i expected.

impressions of first siege vs rebels (stone walls)
two bad side effects of the decreased movement rate:
- one unit of archers on their walls ensured that one unit of merc hoplites and one unit of milita hoplites were at half strength before reaching walls. Both units were reduced to single digits before getting out of missle range after abandoning their rams. In addition, 20 units from a unit of levy pikemen were killed before reaching the walls with siege tower.
- Two battering rams were destroyed before reaching the gates. In a normal game I would think that at least one of them would have made it with one unit of archers and walls firing at 2 rams and 2 siege towers

impressions from first large battle against Greece
Nothing major, but did notice I paused less. Not sure if its from the decreased movement or increased defence, but it was nice none the less. However, I do think that the cavalry charges may need to be toned down a hair. Although I'm likely not used to using a cavalry unit that has a 15 charge! (light lancers)
I like your methodology of testing. Good way to keep details fresh. :thumbsup:


After reading them over as well as other's comments, I suggest the following:

- Different movement speed for different terrain
I remember using the terrain to my advantage much more in Medieval. I pretty much ignore it now.
You haven't notice any particular change in different terrain? That is strange.


Decrease missle attack values
- Archers are already extremely effective in vanilla RTW. Reduced movement speeds only amplify this.
Yes, true. Contrary to what khelvan thinks, I think the infantry (even heavy) suffers a bit more than it should.


- Increase the damage that siege equipment can take
Again, side effect of decreased movement rate.
I don't quite agree. We can circunvet the problem without increasing some in-balances already present with siege equipement (atomic warhead onagers).


- Try incrementing defence up a little more in the next version
I didn't really notice any benefit of the +2 defence. However, I do think that augmenting defence will likely be the best way to decrease kill rates. I agree with Aymar's comments about increasing hit points, and on the TWCenter boards many people have animation problems with mods that adjust the rate of attack.
I can tell you one thing for sure. I find that decreasing the rate of attack is a bad solution to the problem.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 22:37
If the damage siege equipment can take can be increased, I'd much like that. I find it upsetting how speedily my rams and towers collapse, and the slower speeds does make it more of an issue (though base RTW I feel had this problem anyway)
Then it is more a problem of siege equipment resistance to arrow fire and alike.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-21-2004, 23:12
IMHO, if we are going to replace the Greek Cities faction with the Aetolian League then we should use the term Aetolian League to denote navies, cities, etc. The terms Ptolemy and Seleucid refer to a dynasty - the term Aetolian refers to a geographical region, not a political power. If we could add factions and make Rhodes, Sparta, Aetolia, etc. separate factions but strong allies at the outset of the game (much like the Roman factions) then it would make sense to use the term Aetolian when referring to the League (like Polybius does). Since we can't do this and have to use the Aetolian League as a vague concept bonding all of the Greek cities into a playable faction, then let's use "Aetolian League" consistently as a descriptive.
Explained like that, I'm inclined to agree.

Mr. Juice
10-21-2004, 23:43
You haven't notice any particular change in different terrain? That is strange.I believe that khelvan changed movement speeds to 0.8 across the board with the intent of finetuning different terrains later.


I don't quite agree. We can circunvet the problem without increasing some in-balances already present with siege equipement (atomic warhead onagers).My apologies, when I was talking about siege equipment I was referring to the rams and towers I had built on site, as I have yet to make an onager in my Macedon campaign. With the slow rate of advancement to the walls, my rams were lost, and I wouldn't doubt that my towers barely made it. Also, they only had one unit of archers. In vanilla R:TW I would have lost one ram to these defences tops.

And yes, onagers are rediculous in R:TW. ~;)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 00:39
I believe that khelvan changed movement speeds to 0.8 across the board with the intent of finetuning different terrains later.
I believe that, in average, they were reduced by the factor 0.8. I might be wrong though.


My apologies, when I was talking about siege equipment I was referring to the rams and towers I had built on site, as I have yet to make an onager in my Macedon campaign. With the slow rate of advancement to the walls, my rams were lost, and I wouldn't doubt that my towers barely made it. Also, they only had one unit of archers. In vanilla R:TW I would have lost one ram to these defences tops.
Ok, now I see. Yes, khelvan already had the intention of increasing the resistance of rams and towers. He just didn't do it for this test version.


And yes, onagers are rediculous in R:TW. ~;)
LOL :grin:

khelvan
10-22-2004, 00:48
There are differences in terrain modifiers. I simply reduced the vanilla modifiers by 80% across the board. Thus units should be slower in different terrain. I do not, however, agree with the weight that CA put on different terrain and I feel it needs to be slower in some instances, and perhaps higher in others. This will come when we have a base for appropriate movement speed in the open (right now the standard terrain to fight on is grass).

DeadRunner
10-22-2004, 01:23
when will be a released ???

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 02:02
when will be a released ???
Hello, Deadrunner!!! ~:wave: What have you been up to?

Estás ansioso? HE!HE!HE! :grin:

Ainda estamos na versão Alpha 0.1, portanto ainda vai demorar um bocado. Estamos a fazer as coisas passo a passo, para ter a certeza absoluta de que o jogo terá, não só uma grande fidelidade histórica em termos de unidades e culturas, mas também que será o mais realista possível. Coisa que a versão sem MOD não é...

Se quiseres podes testar a versão Alpha 0.1. Entras no grupo EB como beta-tester. Manda-me um PM e eu indico-te como. Mas esta ainda só tem stats diferentes. Não tem unidades novas. Ainda as estamos a fazer.

Se não quiseres, enquanto não sai a V1.0, vai tomando atenção ao thread. ~:wave:

PSYCHO V
10-22-2004, 02:14
Reconspy:

Been playing an few battles with your Arverni. Geez they look great. Be good if we can implement a sort of phalanx option for them, with a long sword as a secondary (non-phalanx) weapon. Not sure who has the know-how to do that?

* Could we make the spear a little longer?

Vercingetrix:

* Do you know how to implement this dual function for the Arverni so when not in a sort of phalanx formation, they fight with longsword?

* Noticed your sword for the Arverni. Is it possible to model on the sword and scabbard on units?

* Is it possible to model it so that for example, when in phalanx, the model shows a sword in the scabbard but when 'not' (ie sword in hand) the scabbard is empty?

This would add a heap to authenticity and eye candy!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri:

Doing a great job. Sent you a PM

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 02:41
Reconspy:

Been playing an few battles with your Arverni. Geez they look great. Be good if we can implement a sort of phalanx option for them, with a long sword as a secondary (non-phalanx) weapon. Not sure who has the know-how to do that?

* Could we make the spear a little longer?
I'm going to intrude in your discussion... :embarassed: ...but, in the RTW engine itself, regarding calculations, there are only three kind of spear-type weapons:

-Spear
-Short Pike
-Long Pike

If it is possible to alter only the graphics for the spear and not their beahaviour, it might be possible, but I don't think so.

Regarding the phalanx option, as I've said in a previous post answering that same question :wink: , if the Averni Arjos use the hoplite unit animation, they will behave like a phalanx, including the draw of swords for closer melee. But, IIRC, this means two things:

1) Use the hoplite model to base the Averni Arjos on, requiring the remodeling of that same model.

2) Extracting the animation data of that hoplite model and that is something that Vercingetorix is still working on his CAS import-export plug-inn.


Aymar de Bois Mauri:
Doing a great job. Sent you a PM
Got it. :thumbsup:

PSYCHO V
10-22-2004, 05:50
Regarding the phalanx option, as I've said in a previous post answering that same question :wink: , if the Averni Arjos use the hoplite unit animation, they will behave like a phalanx, including the draw of swords for closer melee. But, IIRC, this means two things:

1) Use the hoplite model to base the Averni Arjos on, requiring the remodeling of that same model.

2) Extracting the animation data of that hoplite model and that is something that Vercingetorix is still working on his CAS import-export plug-in


Hmmm, the hoplite animation could be a work-around but it would be better if we could have two distinct options. Reason being that in RTW the Hoplites / phalanx guys use their swords when involved in very close / in your face combat... as would of happened in real life.

The prob is that the Celtic long sword was not used in this way. They needed room to swing it so the troops would have to completely break out of close formation and charge with sword in hand. So if somehow we could enable the unit to wield a spear in 'phalanx' but sword otherwise, it would be preferred.

Maybe we could link it to the hold button. When on 'hold position', the unit thrusts with spear, otherwise they use the long sword. Or visa versa with a 'Draw Swords' button. Hmm?

my2bob

reconspy
10-22-2004, 05:55
@PSYCHO V:
I am sure that it can be done, and making the spear longer would be no problem. And yes, Vercingetorix is doing the finishing touches on the Arverni Arjos now, so you should ask him. The "sword back in the scabbard" look when they are using spears I think is probably impossible.

Vercingetorix
10-22-2004, 07:28
The sword and sheath are seperate models but I don't think it is possible to have the sword in scabbard when not using it otherwise it would be some eye candy! Ok I wasn't able to finish up the Averni Arjos but quickly made the gallic warband.

http://img24.exs.cx/img24/2894/gallic_warband.th.jpg (http://img24.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img24&image=gallic_warband.jpg)

Not sure if that's what you wanted with the pants? I didn't texture them but I tried to make them like this pic: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/celt1.jpg

They now have javelins to throw, I wasn't sure if I should add a sword or just leave them with spears so I left them with their usual spears for melee combat. They're still light infantry, do you think swords are too much? I would personaly rather see them keep the spears but not my call. Gave them a torc as well, did I miss anything?

edit I would be surprised if you have any problems implementing any old unit in a phalanx. As far as I know the phalanx units use the same universal unit skeleton. I haven't really spent any time changing units in this way just the graphical changes...I may be mistaken.

http://home.earthlink.net/~axel44/gallic_warband.zip

kaiserjaffa
10-22-2004, 08:03
Hi there guys! im quite new to the editing scene for RTW, (ive always edited ofp) lol anyway i was just thinking with that cool screen of the gauls you were edititing, why dont you consider editing the saturation levels a little of the clothes they are wearing (or the er textures of the clothes) and likewise for the shield (adding some dirt and scratches etc) that could make the unit look more kinda real - that said of course CA has a lot of units that look too bright or colourful in my opinion.

Anyway Vercingtorix i think the work your doing is great, ive only been here for a week or so, but i can already appreciate the great work ur doing.

PSYCHO V
10-22-2004, 08:13
Brilliant stuff Verci !!

Torc Torc Torc !! :charge: :charge: :charge:

Re the pants: I think the boots are too high imho. Ok for the more elite units like Arverni etc that could afford special boots but for the grunts I think it best to keep the pants gathered low at the ankles with shoes.

Re the weapons: Nice with the throwing spears. I do think the sword the preferred secondary weapon. This will reflect historically how the majority fought, and the Warband is a generic majority unit. The peasants are your ‘too poor to have sword’ spear unit, whilst the Arverni, Helvetii and Bodubatae etc are your spear defence units. If we can get those later ‘elite’ units that dual role thing between thrusting spears and swords, the Warband throwing spears and swords ability will also add a bit of variety. My2bob

Waiting eagerly to begin skinning!!

Colovion
10-22-2004, 09:13
nice stuff Vercingetorix - but how are they going to stay warm with no shirt on in the chilly north?

Dead Moroz
10-22-2004, 09:34
Why use "Total Realism" features? This is the EB MOD. We will modify the map according to History, not according to other MODs.
Ok, let's make our own! :charge: I think it's good idea to add some new regions.
I miss Corsica. Don't understand why it's united with Sardinia.
Caledonia will be good too imho.
Not sure about Raetia. I would easily agree to forget about it.
Also I'm thinking about renaming "Bosphorus" to "Tavria" (need proper Latin spelling), and making new (historically accurate) Bosporus (not Bosphorus - it's strait near Istanbul) on both coasts of Kerch strait.


You want to use Slavic to depict a city name before the slavs appeared on the scene? That is NOT an Historical approach and this MOD is all about that.
You got me wrong! I just pointed out that name "Bylazora" (original CA's) may be Slavic and anachronistic for that period. I already found better name for town in this region - Serdica (from map in Osprey's book about Thracians).

Dead Moroz
10-22-2004, 10:34
However, I do not accept your suggestion to name the Aetolians the Greeks. The Seleucids, the Macedons, and really most of the factions around the Aegean and beyond are all successors of Alexander's empire, and are more or less ALL Greek. How is it any more -historical- to call ONE of these factions "Greek" when they ALL are? We might as well toss out all the factions and just have five or so big ones, including Roman, Greek, Barbarian...do you see my point?
That's a BIG MISTAKE! They were not all Greeks. There was just some number of Greek "immigrants" living in all these countries. And there were a lot of "metises". But the backbone of populations were not Greeks. You just confused culture with ethnicity.


However, why in the world would you tell me to rename the Aetolian League to Greek and not, for instance, Macedon?
Because inhabitants of these unions (Aetolian and Achaen Leagues) were pure Greeks in comparison with "Greeks" from successors' states.


Give me specific edits, and I will make them.
I noticed yesterday that you just changed the ownership of region without editing garrisons in town. Now there are some faction specific units in rebel regions which rebels not supposed to have. For example, falxsmen in Campus Getae or macedonian cavalry in Syracuse. They have silly "Peasant" icon and I'm afraid (not tested yet) there will be problems with textures in battle (=>CTD?).


You may not like the outcome here. Population growth is still too high in my opinion. Cities should not be growing at 10% a year (5% every 6 months) in a representation of the Classical world. Growth is too quick, population needs to be reduced more. We may consider decreasing unit costs proportionately across the board to allow for larger armies, but population will continue to be a limiting factor. One faction should not be able to conquer most of the Mediterranean in 20 years.
Hmmm... My common growth % is just 0.5-2 per turn. Even with low taxes in some cities. I wish to have that 10% per year. Only certain towns (like Patavium, Mediolanum or some Greek cities) have something like 5-7%.
For me farming income is not population growth but money. Reducing it can make game just unplayable. Do what you want, but I will not never ever spoil my farms! :clown:


The problem is the effects that will have on the AI, which will probably empty its cities of people if unit costs are cheap. Thus we face a delicate balancing act.
Do not see the problem here.


See point 2) above. We will be adding a great many new provinces, but we will not be copying them from another mod.
Just answered to Aymar above: "Let's make our own new provinces!"


I am more concerned about the Latin spelling, not English. Find me its Latin name and I will do so, though someone else doing the graphics end will have to play with the map to make it look right.
Agreed.
This town have Greek origins and so the name is Greek. I think the "Olvia" will be right (I'll try to check).


Please show me a map that supports giving Tribus Sarmatae to the rebels, and I will do it.
Believe me as a specialist (have diploma) on Scythians. ~:) It will be 100% historically accurate.


I do not think Mauretania should go to Carthage. While Carthage did have control over some of the coastline to the northwest of Tingi, she did not have control over the majority of the province. If you think that is enough, I can do so, but I will not be giving Numidia to the Numidians regardless of name. It is illogical to give a province to a faction simply because they share a similar name, I prefer to do what is historical, and as the Carthaginians had subjugated the numidian tribes it would make intuitive sense that they should own Numidia. In any event, every map I see of 270 BC has Carthage controlling almost the entire area of RTW's Numidia. There is no reason to give it away. At the time in question Numidia did not exist as an independent state.

Also, for what reason should I give Dimmdi to the rebels?
1. About Mauretania. The same thing are for Lepcis Magna and Lybia. Carthaginians and Ptolemies controlled just coastal lines of these regions. But according to realities of RTW we give them full provinces. The same must be with Mauretania. It's just ingame convention.
2. About Numidia. According to historial accuracy there must be no Numidia in start. But since we decide to have this faction we must give Numidia to it. Giving Mauretania and Dimmidi to Numidia will just increase inaccuracy. Mauretania was separate kingdom. Dimidi will make Numidia inaccurately big.

My suggestion: give Numidia just one region - Numidia. And if it possible make it protectorate of Carthage.


This is the very first build of the mod, with our very first tweaks. There was never any question that unit stats would be reworked after the release of this build. In fact, we will probably still be tweaking unit stats and battle settings months from now. If you wish your feedback to be valuable to our effort, please rephrase it in terms of end results. I see a bit of it here - you think combat needs to last longer, and hoplites need to act better against cavalry.

However, you need to explain this in more detail. Why, specifically, do you think combat is off? What, specifically is off with the length of combat - do units die too fast? Break too quickly? Does the movement speed put them into engagements too quickly? What, specifically, is wrong with how the hoplites act against cavalry?
Ok, I'll make detailed description.


Attack factors have been increased, defense decreased. They should be more lethal. Much more lethal.
In my game ships keep fighting like they used to do it in original version. No any lethality noticed.

PSYCHO V
10-22-2004, 10:45
Lovely Torc Verci!

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/EBGallicWarband.jpg

Well, what do you guys think of the Northern Warband so far?

The Southern Warband is basically the same but with a different colouring / shield emblem, a Briton head and a shorter version of recons cloak.

Dead Moroz
10-22-2004, 11:00
I started to edit geographical map yesterday. That's what I made now:

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/0051.jpg
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/0050.jpg

I made proper town in Scythia and moved east the border of this region (now I think it must be moved even easter to cut off Meotis from Crimea).
New fords added and some moved to make communication between regions easier. In original RTW Scythia had no access to Sarmatia - it was wrong.
I removed one ford from Volga and left just one distant to make it harder to cross this big river.

Now I'm planning to adjust proportions of steppes and forests in Eastern Europe.
Want to move wheat from Crimea to Scythia. Planning to add silk to Sakae (there was one of minor ways of Great Silk Road) but not completely sure about it.

Dead Moroz
10-22-2004, 11:06
Well, what do you guys think of the Northern Warband so far?
Aren't they too naked for North? ~D

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 15:04
Update on the work list:


-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
Dead Moroz
...
...


-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...


-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

I've taken the liberty of subdividing the team in faction groups, according to your interests.
Please PM me if you don't agree with your assignement.

Gauls and Britons:
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
reconspy

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Dacians and Thracians:
TigerVX
Dead Moroz
The samnite
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Dead Moroz
...
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
...
...
...
...
...
...


-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...


-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...


-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...


-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Gauls and Britons:
PSYCHO V
Ranika

Germanics:
Stefan the Berserker
SaFe
...

Iberians:
Aymar de Bois Mauri

Aetolian League (former Greek Cities):
chemchok
...

Dacians and Thracians:
Stormy
...

Scythians/Sarmatians/Parthians:
Steppe Merc
...

Other factions (PM me to coordinate):
Stormy
chemchok
Ranika
Steppe Merc
ick_of_pick
...
...
...


-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
Salazar
Mr. Juice
Dead Moroz
Sol Invictus


Post me if you have any doubts about specific assignements within the same work related area



Updated 01:00 - 10/23/04

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 15:13
Hmmm, the hoplite animation could be a work-around but it would be better if we could have two distinct options. Reason being that in RTW the Hoplites / phalanx guys use their swords when involved in very close / in your face combat... as would of happened in real life.

The prob is that the Celtic long sword was not used in this way. They needed room to swing it so the troops would have to completely break out of close formation and charge with sword in hand. So if somehow we could enable the unit to wield a spear in 'phalanx' but sword otherwise, it would be preferred.
I don't know how to circunvent that problem and i doubt there is an easy solution...


Maybe we could link it to the hold button. When on 'hold position', the unit thrusts with spear, otherwise they use the long sword. Or visa versa with a 'Draw Swords' button. Hmm?
I know that is not possible. The fighting behaviour is hard-coded.

PSYCHO V
10-22-2004, 15:23
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/EBGallicWarbandII.jpg

Playing with shield designs

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 15:45
nice stuff Vercingetorix - but how are they going to stay warm with no shirt on in the chilly north?
I agree. Ca depicted them all naked. In the Historical pictures that's rather rare except, of course, for the Gaesatae.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 15:53
Ok, let's make our own! :charge: I think it's good idea to add some new regions.
I miss Corsica. Don't understand why it's united with Sardinia.
Caledonia will be good too imho.
Not sure about Raetia. I would easily agree to forget about it.
Also I'm thinking about renaming "Bosphorus" to "Tavria" (need proper Latin spelling), and making new (historically accurate) Bosporus (not Bosphorus - it's strait near Istanbul) on both coasts of Kerch strait.
I think the best way to start planning the implementation of a new map is for you to discuss things with the guys in the Campaign Map group : khelvan and Oleander Ardens.


You got me wrong! I just pointed out that name "Bylazora" (original CA's) may be Slavic and anachronistic for that period. I already found better name for town in this region - Serdica (from map in Osprey's book about Thracians).
OK. Sorry. I've misunderstood what you wrote. Good research in finding that name.

Dead Moroz
10-22-2004, 16:02
I think the best way to start planning the implementation of a new map is for you to discuss things with the guys in the Campaign Map group : khelvan and Oleander Ardens.

So, what's the current state of the map? Oleander wrote me that they're preparing new map starting 300BC. Don't hide it! Show to us! ~:grouphug:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 16:05
1. About Mauretania. The same thing are for Lepcis Magna and Lybia. Carthaginians and Ptolemies controlled just coastal lines of these regions. But according to realities of RTW we give them full provinces. The same must be with Mauretania. It's just ingame convention.
2. About Numidia. According to historial accuracy there must be no Numidia in start. But since we decide to have this faction we must give Numidia to it. Giving Mauretania and Dimmidi to Numidia will just increase inaccuracy. Mauretania was separate kingdom. Dimidi will make Numidia inaccurately big.

My suggestion: give Numidia just one region - Numidia. And if it possible make it protectorate of Carthage.
I've discussed with khelvan about this exact same problem earlier, although not specifically about provinces. More about Carthaginian preponderance in the region and it's relation with Numidians.

The only real solution for the problem will happen only when we start adding provinces to the game. Larger areas can then be sub-divided in Historical areas of influence, allowing both a powerfull Carthage (centered on naval power) and a feasible, sustainable Numidia (centered on inland power).

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 16:08
Lovely Torc Verci!

Well, what do you guys think of the Northern Warband so far?

The Southern Warband is basically the same but with a different colouring / shield emblem, a Briton head and a shorter version of recons cloak.
They do look good, but there are too many barechested Gallic units in the game, don't you agree?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 16:13
Playing with shield designs
Both shields look good, but I ask again: Aren't there too many barechested Gallic units?

Sorry for being a nag about it... :wink:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-22-2004, 16:14
So, what's the current state of the map? Oleander wrote me that they're preparing new map starting 300BC. Don't hide it! Show to us! ~:grouphug:
Hey, man! PM the guy! :grin:

I haven't seen the map yet... :no:

khelvan
10-22-2004, 19:09
Err, that is news to me. Oleander, please drop me a line with what you are working on. Is this the direction we have decided to go in for EB? If that is what you guys have decided, it would have been nice to know before I spent days learning and editing the current campaign structure.

Steppe Merc
10-22-2004, 20:22
About the Celts, shouldn't all of them except for mabye the slingers, Gaestae and chariot drivers have shirts? From what I understand, only the light infantry and the Gaestae went shirtless...

Stormy
10-22-2004, 22:00
Hi guys, I'm working on the faction description now and already have Thracians done. I will give it to Khelvan in a bit.

For the good people working on Thracian models and skins
Good information and photos about the Thracian army (http://www.thrace.0catch.com/introduc.htm)

Stormy
10-22-2004, 22:03
~:eek: oh my, All of these units is looking fantastic!!

Stormy
10-22-2004, 22:26
Excellent work on the geographical aspect Dead Moroz. ~:cheers:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-23-2004, 01:08
Hi guys, I'm working on the faction description now and already have Thracians done. I will give it to Khelvan in a bit.

For the good people working on Thracian models and skins
Good information and photos about the Thracian army (http://www.thrace.0catch.com/introduc.htm)
Hey, Stormy!!! Great info.

But you can post this and pictures at the EB thread at the Colosseum. That thread is the one to post general Historical info. Unit pics and unit info should be posted here.

Stormy
10-23-2004, 01:13
:duel: I will do it now Aymar.

~:) This mod is looking great all. Fantastic ideas and great workers ~:grouphug:

khelvan
10-23-2004, 02:26
That's a BIG MISTAKE! They were not all Greeks. There was just some number of Greek "immigrants" living in all these countries. And there were a lot of "metises". But the backbone of populations were not Greeks. You just confused culture with ethnicity.

Because inhabitants of these unions (Aetolian and Achaen Leagues) were pure Greeks in comparison with "Greeks" from successors' states.
Well, if you can come up with, together with chemchok, a better way to represent these Greek peoples, I will be happy to implement it. Please collaborate with him, and assuming the rest of the group accepts it I am all for it.


I noticed yesterday that you just changed the ownership of region without editing garrisons in town. Now there are some faction specific units in rebel regions which rebels not supposed to have. For example, falxsmen in Campus Getae or macedonian cavalry in Syracuse. They have silly "Peasant" icon and I'm afraid (not tested yet) there will be problems with textures in battle (=>CTD?).
Yes, I will have to go back through the units, though I was waiting until we had a unit list that we would be adding/removing from the factions. You get the same peasant icon when you create a new unit and use it in game, I am not quite sure what is the cause of it; it also appears when you add a faction unit to a mercenary hiring point. I suspect that each faction has its own unit cards for each unit, and if a faction that does not normally have that type of unit (rebels, in your example) is given it, the card doesn't show properly.

That is merely a guess, though. The people who have been working on getting new units into the game can probably address that better than I.


Hmmm... My common growth % is just 0.5-2 per turn. Even with low taxes in some cities. I wish to have that 10% per year. Only certain towns (like Patavium, Mediolanum or some Greek cities) have something like 5-7%.
For me farming income is not population growth but money. Reducing it can make game just unplayable. Do what you want, but I will not never ever spoil my farms! :clown:
I can easily, through building the farm upgrades, health buildings, and the temples of growth get 10% a year in all but the most barren of provinces. If your concern is not population growth but income level, do not worry so much. The reason why the game is somewhat difficult at the beginning right now is because we have not adjusted unit costs at the moment, and I did not reduce starting garrisons. We will play with that, but you will notice if you play a campaign through that the mid to end game is still very easy, as you have a ton of denari pouring in, especially if you have coastal provinces. Trade is the best way to make denari in the game at the moment.

If the farm level is too low to stay profitable, we can adjust the income levels in many different ways. I think, however, that you will find that the game is still rather easy if you just play through it a bit longer.

On the second note, the reason why reducing population growth but keeping the income level at a relatively high amount (due to trade being a primary source of income) can be a problem for an AI is that the AI may continue to build units at the same rate based on available income. If it builds units too fast it might even reduce its cities to very small populations.


Just answered to Aymar above: "Let's make our own new provinces!"
I agree, but I do not currently have the knowledge to do this. Do you know how to do it?


This town have Greek origins and so the name is Greek. I think the "Olvia" will be right (I'll try to check).

Believe me as a specialist (have diploma) on Scythians. ~:) It will be 100% historically accurate.
Ok I will take your word for it :)

On naming conventions - we should decide if we are going to use Latin names for everything or try to come up with names based on the origin of the town itself. We need to come to some sort of consensus on this before we start adding new provinces.


1. About Mauretania. The same thing are for Lepcis Magna and Lybia. Carthaginians and Ptolemies controlled just coastal lines of these regions. But according to realities of RTW we give them full provinces. The same must be with Mauretania. It's just ingame convention.
2. About Numidia. According to historial accuracy there must be no Numidia in start. But since we decide to have this faction we must give Numidia to it. Giving Mauretania and Dimmidi to Numidia will just increase inaccuracy. Mauretania was separate kingdom. Dimidi will make Numidia inaccurately big.

My suggestion: give Numidia just one region - Numidia. And if it possible make it protectorate of Carthage.
I do not believe that it is possible to set up protectorates at this time. I believe that part of the code is not exposed.

Let's concentrate on gaining the skills necessary to create new provinces so we can avoid this issue before we release our first version. We can also avoid other sticky situations such as that with Ptolemaic Egypt on the coast near Halicarnassus and the situation of the Greek cities.

PSYCHO V
10-23-2004, 05:16
What are you guys working on at the moment? I don't want to duplicate anything.

Vercingetrix and I are working on the Warband and Bodubatae. If we can get the Northern Warband sorted (ie with throwing spear and sword), then the Southern will soon follow. Being the same sort but with a Briton head and a shorter version of your great Arverni cloak.

Did you want to have a go at the Standard Bearer and Captain units?

Colovion
10-23-2004, 10:53
I just thought I'd give a little feedback on the mod testing.

1) I'm playing as Germany and have noticed a few strange things:
a) the Senate have already conquered Osca and Narbo Martius and it's only been about 20 turns. I'd never seen SPQR take anything - let alone two provinces that quickly. Perhaps it's because they start with other provinces plus money to start them off. Hopefully they aren't overpowering early in the game.
b) the German Spear/Phalanx unit only fights with their spear. They don't have any secondary weapon. This could be ok - but those spears are hugely long and when they get close in to fight hand to hand the guy looks like he's punching the enemy soldier while holding his spear vertical...


2) The movement speed is decent and I am pretty sure that I'll be happy with it. I'm guessing we're planning on changing the speeds for various terrains though. Right now besides a few changes we're at .8 across the board. I see there being better ways:

here's an example of how you can change the file 'descr_battle_map_movement_modifiers.txt':


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

climate default

grass_short 0.9
grass_long 0.8
sand 0.8
rock 0.8
forest_dense 0.6
scrub_dense 0.8
swamp 0.6
mud 0.8
mud_road 0.9
stone_road 0.9
water 0.5
ice 0.4
snow 0.6

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Any input into changing this at all would be welcome - this is just a sugestion... I mean they can be defined down many many decimals....

The main thing I am looking for besides obvious bugs is how Carthage fares against Rome through the game.

Salazar
10-23-2004, 12:14
Another Bit of Modding Feedback:

Carthage plays great with the new Ships and the extra Denarii, if you consequently hunt down the Roman Ships and Blockade their Ports + pumping out new Ships en Masse you can Really kick ass against Romans. Also War mostly breaks out from me conquering Sicily meating a Roman Army which wants Syracuse or Messana, just like it should be ~:)

As far as i saw the Ai also does pretty well with Carthage and gives the Romans a hard Time in at least the Western Mediterranian Sea.
Romans also Expand notably slower in the Beginning though in a Short Julii Game i noticed you have too much Troops in the Beginning and have to Conquer new Land as fast as Possible. In my Games before EB i never wanted to Conquer as fast as the Senate ordered me, now it's the other Way round, also not unhistorically.

A few Things which could imho be done:

Put Gades one step lower and Carthago nova one higher + give CN a Port.
Iberia was one of the most Important Colonies of Carthage and would surely have had at least one Port historically.

Same counts for Lilybaeum, Sicily was also very important, so maybe also give it a Port.

Give the Carthies less Ships. With the Amount of Ships they have at the Moment the Romans havent even a chance to build a Fleet. Also with the newe Ports Carthage could build even more Ships and would be even more Powerful, so, mayby make 8 or so out of the twelve ships.

Fazit: Plays great :bow: :bow: :bow:

The great Modders here surely deserve it

DeadRunner
10-23-2004, 13:59
i am drawling of waiting for a released already ~D

Aymar do you will put the Lusitanos Heros ???
I sady that this coulnd,t be dividied in eras will be nice to play with iberian when they almost kick Roman out of Iberia ~;) ,of course was a temporary victory

Steppe Merc
10-23-2004, 15:24
From what I've seen as the Parthians, I have a bit of trouble keeping aliances other than that of Armenia (Parthian's historical protectorate). Has any one else found that historical allies are easier to keep? I always end up figthing the Selcuids and the Ptolemiec Empire. I wish the Scythians would ally with me, but they never will. However, without Campus Sartae, things are easier since that place sucked up a whole lot of money.
Also, can the capital of the Parthians (I forget the name), start with the Governers Palace? Since it's the capital, it's a bit silly to have another city have more people in it.

Silver Rusher
10-23-2004, 16:11
I think that the idealism of a 'barbarian horde' should be better simulated, although it's not my department. Barbarian units should be far worse than other units of other factions, however they have huge numbers. So say, the gaul faction for example (on large units) starts with a total of about 50,000 men in and out of their cities, whereas others barely scrape a few thousand. This could have problems with loyalty being unbalanced, but really, who isn't scared when a huge barbarian horde comes into your civilised city and occupies it, threatening to brutally murder anybody getting in it's way?

chemchok
10-23-2004, 17:15
Hey, man! PM the guy! :grin:

I haven't seen the map yet... :no:
Wait, what are we using for the starting time period, 270 or 300 BC? That's going to make a huge difference in the starting positions of factions. :dizzy2:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-23-2004, 20:06
On naming conventions - we should decide if we are going to use Latin names for everything or try to come up with names based on the origin of the town itself. We need to come to some sort of consensus on this before we start adding new provinces.
I totally agree. This should be discussed by all members as soon as possible.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-23-2004, 20:17
I think that the idealism of a 'barbarian horde' should be better simulated, although it's not my department. Barbarian units should be far worse than other units of other factions, however they have huge numbers. So say, the gaul faction for example (on large units) starts with a total of about 50,000 men in and out of their cities, whereas others barely scrape a few thousand. This could have problems with loyalty being unbalanced, but really, who isn't scared when a huge barbarian horde comes into your civilised city and occupies it, threatening to brutally murder anybody getting in it's way?
I don't won't to sound rude, but the myth of a "barbarian horde" is just that: a myth. A myth invented by the Romans and alike, to justify the several defeats they suffered at their hands. A myth, not historical fact. Therefore, It doesn't belong in this MOD. Case closed.

Colovion
10-23-2004, 20:23
Well it's probably not wrong to assume that the majority of the sources that we have for this time period is from Roman means so the end-all naming chart would be in Latin. I would like to have the native toungue for each of the seperate Provinces, hell - I'd rather every single Province be in the native tongue of the faction you're playing at the time, but that probably won't happen. As it is - how many provinces are there that we know the 'non-Latin" name of? Would it be better to have all Latin? or a few non-Latin and the ones we aren't sure of to keep in Latin?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-23-2004, 20:34
i am drawling of waiting for a released already ~D
LOL :grin:


Aymar do you will put the Lusitanos Heros ???
Like Viriato and Sertório? Maybe... :wink: ...just maybe!! :grin2:


I sady that this coulnd,t be dividied in eras will be nice to play with iberian when they almost kick Roman out of Iberia ~;) ,of course was a temporary victory
200 years of insubmission complemented with several great military victories, including the complete anihilation of several Roman legions, isn't exactly a temporary victory. It was a fact during the lifespan of many human lives.

However, in game terms, a Lusitanii faction is an incertainity. Presently, an impossibility, because we still can't add factions. In the future, maybe, but only Hardcore players will be able to keep that faction afloat. Meanwhile, we'll include Lusitanii units (4), in a united Iberian faction (it happened a few times during Viriato's time).

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-23-2004, 20:42
Wait, what are we using for the starting time period, 270 or 300 BC? That's going to make a huge difference in the starting positions of factions. :dizzy2:
Don't worry. Oleander Ardens isn't going to implement a map like this, without this having been discussed VERY thouroughly with EVERYONE of us. Besides, only Dead Moroz has heard it. I won't let one people's lapse get in the way of everyone else.

Hey, Dead Moroz!! ~:wave: Are you pulling our leg about this?

[cF]HanBaal
10-24-2004, 18:15
hi all! Excelent mod you guys are working for what I've seen so far! ~:cheers:

One of the first things that totally revolted me in RTW was the inaccuracy regarding some of the 'barbarian' units (and consequently carthaginian troops) from those ancient days... especially the iberian troops since I haven't played the other 'barbarian' nations still ... though I can guess. This mod will hopefully correct it and so I'm truly excited about the development of your work.


Just a couple of details from what I read so far. I read completely both the threads here and in the ' colosseum' (what a romanised name for the rtw forum btw.. i always destroy the colosseums in my campaigns in name of the thousands of slaves humiliated and killed in those arenas ;) ), and a couple of inaccuracies jumped right at my eyes! Without offense Khelvan, since I concur with most of what you said and suggested, you're wrong when you say this:

"Unfortunately, using your source, this would place the adoption of the pila well past Livy (c. 240 BC)." - khelvan

You repeat several times to defend your argument Livy's quotes suposing he wrote around 240BC..... Livy was born in 64 BC and died in 12 AD! He based lot of his writings in Polybius so how could he be prior to him?! Unless you're talking of a different Livy. So I totally am with Aymar that, just like the gladius was adopted from the Iberian falcata... so was the pilum from the Iberian soliferra.

And it is this last detail (the admitance of this Iberian gear superiority), together with the several defeats that these upgraded legions suffered against numerically inferior foes using that same gear (though for some long now and thus more experienced) that I was totally revolted to see the "Iberian Infantry" and "Iberian Scutarii" with such lousy stats ~:confused:


Among those Iberians there was a leader that managed to do what many (or all) nations didn't during the blitzkrieg of the roman republic post-pw2... the Lusitanians under the invincible Viriato managed to conquer back almost the whole of Iberia in a 7 year or so streak only stoping at the coast and allowing the romans to keep some their coastal cities since the romans decided to accept the peace Viriato offered them (11 of the 13 defeated generals sent were consuls!)... have you heard this?! Romans signing a forced peace treaty where they let go many of their lands? This goes out to show the military submission Viriato and his outnumbered army forced on Rome. The last battle was a battle described by Appian (the roman writer):

"in 140BC [near the end of the campaign started in 148-147BC] they sent the military famous consul Fabius Maximus Servilianus. Ahead of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry he is surprisingly ambushed and defeated by Viriato, who only kills 3000 and captures the rest, who surrendered.

"Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12

now explain me folks who had the 'hordes' in these battles ~D



Another clear example was the refusal of all italians to sign in the legions going to Iberia since their armies had become the boogey-man and the terror of the population. Then they had to resort to hiring numidians and some elephants and the result was this...

http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_numancia_elef_01.jpg

.. more of the same ~:handball:


In conclusion, it wasn't by mistake that one roman leader once said about Iberia... "First to be invaded, last to be dominated". And I might add that hadn't been for the treacherous murder of Viriato a couple of years after he spared a captured roman consular army and its leader, even offering them a peace treaty and safe escort from the enraged pop out of his lands, the Iberian unity might have lasted and the sneaky roman tactics of divide and conquer (just like in Gaul) might have never worked in this land.

Steppe Merc
10-24-2004, 18:17
Playing as the Macedonians, I relized that they need a bit of help historical wise as well. The one cavalry looks like a Roman, and not one unit has the Boetian helm. Instead they have a floppy hat... ~:confused:
While they aren't as urgent as the rest of the factions, I think they should be evauntauly fixed.

I was thinking about the fact that we only can have 300 units. Now, does that mean that Horse archer, for example is one unit? Or does it count for each faction, since each faction needs a different texture for that unit? If so, mabye we could get around this by elimanating faction colors. That way, the few unit that are shared between factions could just occupy one texture, rather than a whole bunch. This I feel, would also be far more historically acurate...

[cF]HanBaal
10-24-2004, 19:06
If you guys read my last post and are interested to know more about this extraordinary soldiers (reckoned by both Carthage and rome as the best merc inf available in their 'world'), here's a more detailed descrition of the Iberian Wars conducted by the romans:


"After the 2nd punic war, in 202 BC, Carthaginians left their Iberian possessions. The romans kept their recently conquered lands but always looked for more. Several roman invasions happened. Besides the roman efforts, they came normally defeated and could not expand much beyond their own land initially, divided in 2 provinces:

www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_mapa_hispania_10.gif
Iberia in 197BC

But roman reinforcements kept ariving and from 182 to 179 BC the conquests were significative.

Year------- Romans----Allies
193-------- 6.200------10.400
191-------- 2.201------4.400
189-------- 2.050------8.400
188-------- 0.000------6.400
186--------- 3.200-----21.300
184-------- 4.300------7.500
182-------- 4.200------7.300
181------- 3.200------6.300
Reinforcements sent between 193-181BC, where the romans-allies proportion was not 1-1 anymore, as in the begining of the 2nd punic war


In 179 peace is reestablished by Tiberius Sempronius Grachus. It included peace treaties with the unconquered iberian tribes but it was broke in 154BC, when romans started to sack and predate the (suposedly) allied lands, into the interior of Iberia. Púnico (more than probably from carthaginian origin), leader of the lusitanians (in western Iberia), raised arms against Rome and defeated both provinces’ praetors, first Manlius and later Calpurnius, crushing their armies. This impressive victories caused other iberian tribes to moralize themselves and join the lusitanians in the war against the invading romans. Between those new allies was the city of Numancia, the capital of Celtiberia.

However, Rome was humiliated and wanted revenge against this Púnico. In 153BC, 60.000 men under the consuls Quintus Fulvius Nobilior (30.000 coming purposedly from Rome) and Lucius Mummius arrive in Spain. The roman senate looked at this war as a IndependentIberia vs Rome great war, so no spanish auxiliars from the roman spanish possessions were in this army.

The roman army first attacks and destroys the deserted Segeda, known as 'the town of the pretty ones', whose inhabitants had meanwhile retreated to Numancia, who in their turn started to prepare themselves for the great defense against the aproaching vast roman army. Well, the numantines were one of those who had allied with Púnico and the lusitans as I said above so, before they reached Numancia, the romans are intercepted and again utterly crushed by Púnico, and their royal banners travel all around Iberia, who claims those who had defeated 2 roman armies in a row as their heroes! In this same year of 153BC, and moralised by the previous ocurrences, the Numantines sail out their city, pin, trap and destroy an entire roman legion in the 23rd of August.

At Rome, people couldn't believe what just happened. A smaller bunch of 'barbarians' had just crushed 2 entire roman armies and, after that, as a dessert, completely anihilated another roman legion! Fulvius Nobilior, outraged, still tries to take Numantia with what forces he still manages to gather, but this little town (10000 pop with around 4000 able men) was built in a strong defensive position in a hill, in the borders of river Duero/Douro, and had strong walls. Frustrated, he goes back home and the roman senate orders the recruitment of 2 new legions. But everyone around Italy is unwilling to go to Iberia coz they are terrified of these Iberian warriors who are extremely skilled with their falcatas, strategically impressive, and chop roman legions as never seen before [well, not since Hannibal and his also partially iberian army :)] . So, stunned with this reaction of their own people, the roman senate asks the consul Fulvio to do what he can. Fulvio decides to ask for help to the Numidians who send cavalry and war elephants. As soon as they arrive Numancia with this new army (finally reassembled and also reinforced by some Numidians), he orders the elephants (around 10) to charge the Iberians who did not know how to counter those 'tanks'! Surprisingly, there was one veteran among them who knew what to do: he ordered one of the slingers to aim for the elephant's eyes. These ancient slingers (balearic for the most) were extremely skilled, accurate, and their projectiles were deadly (some roman helmets from Cannae have two holes, one in one out victims of the hardly compressed lead bullets who outranged ancient archers easily). Once the eye of the elephant was hit, he panicked, turned back, and trampled the roman infantry coming behind.... encouraged by this, the Iberians thrown themselves against the remaining disorientated elephants, defeating them and then to the roman infantry who was also crushed. Fulvius, humiliated once again, ran back home.

http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_numancia_elef_01.jpg

The Senate couldn't take it no more and, in the spring of 152BC, sends the consul Marco Claudio Marcelo to wage war against the iberians. Marcelo however tries diplomacy instead of war and signs a peace treaty, agreed by the Iberians. The roman Senate however wanted no peace and sends a new consul, Lucio Licino Luculo and orders his consular army to wage war. He attacks the Vaccaeos (a tribe who had nothing to do with the previous wars and did nothing to deserve war) and siege their capital, Cauca. The poor inhabitants deliver their weapons and goods as asked by the romans and surrender. Luculo orders afterwards the assault of the defenseless city and terminates the unarmed population... :furious3: They then proceed to Palencia, a neighbour city, sieging it. Here, however, no unarmed women and children were waiting but, instead, angry men who crushed the roman army and Luculus ran back to Rome.

Luculus, who wanted some booty at all costs, returns soon and starts ravaging the peaceful Vaccaeos' lands once again (poor Vaccaeos). The lusitans come from their western lands in the rescue once again but their great general, Púnico, had meanwhile died during a siege and Caesaros succeeds him. The succeeding consul Mummius, reinforced by yet a new army from Rome and taking advantage of their bright leader’s recent death, attacks the lusitans. Outnumbered and inexperienced, Caesaros leaves his camp and retreats, but suddenly, seeing the disorganized roman pursuit, turns around, sets an ambush and kills another 9000 romans (Mummius still manages to rally 5000 of the fleeing rest). Not only he recovers his camp and booty but also the once captured roman standards, who had been left behind in his camp, carrying them throughout Iberia once again.


When Sulpicius Galba succeeds in the roman command he proposes a peace treaty with the lusitans conceiding them their wishes and new lands, signs the treaty and when the 30000 lusitans (men, women and children) unarmed, leave the mountains and cities to celebrate the new peace with Galba in their new fertile lands in the plains, in 3 different places, he asks them to lay down their arms as a sign of good will, and then orders his ambushed soldiers to attack and massacres those 3 groups, one by one (the other 2 groups could not know what happened to the first one as they were separated from each other). More then 9000 are killed and the majority of the rest is captured and sold as slaves in Galia. Among those who escaped alive this genocide, was a young sheppard from 'Serra da Estrela' (the highest mountains in today's Portugal and home of the lusitans), called Viriato.


http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_mapa_hispania_11.gif
Iberia in 147BC

Viriato was a true military genius. He was so feared and admired by the roman writers of those days that they had no doubt calling him the ‘barbarian Hannibal’ or even the 'Romulus hispaniensis' [right! He would sooner rape that b*tch's ass then such on her teets like Romulus :D ]. Owner of a briliant military and political mind Viriato convinces his lusitanian tribal leaders to serve under his leadership (especially due to his tribe's soldiers superior discipline and his personal fairness in judgement) gathers an army of 10.000 and starts defeating consecutively entire roman praetor and consular armies. Alterning from openfield to guerrilla tactics he destroys the raiding legions and puts Rome in the defensive. But this was just the begining. In 147BC he invades the valley of Betis (in Hispania Ulterior, controled by romans) defeating everything ahead. He was a brilliant strategist who used the terrain to his advantage, and he ‘walked’ through Hispania Ulterior like a magician, apearing and vanishing from roman sight without leting the romans to pin him and defeat his ‘little’ army. The roman armies, used to orthodox engagements (with camps facing each other etc), were continously surprised by rush attacks, ambushes, baits, etc until they were completely anihilated.

At the Valley of Tietar, in 148, Viriato defeated the propraetor Caius Plautius and made Segóbriga (deep in the roman territory) his capital. From this base he launched several attacks of great impact against the roman dominance in the peninsula. In four years he had defeated 4 entire praetor/consular armies (11 of the 13 commanders sent were consuls): Caius Vetilius in 149 (4000 killed first and another 6000 a couple of days later who had came to the rescue, routing the rest), Caius Plautius in 148 (4000 dead and another 4000 captured a couple of days later, routing the rest), Claudius Unimanus in 147 (10000 ambushed and killed, routing the rest), and Caius Ngidius Figulus in 146 (totally destroyed) after which Viriato overrun all Hispania Ulterior without opposition.


The romans felt 'insulted' more than ever, and in 140 they sent the military famous consul Fabius Maximus Servilianus. Ahead of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry he is surprisingly ambushed and defeated by Viriato, who only kills 3000 and captures the rest, who surrendered.

"Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12

However, being merciful and honorable, and even in face of what the romans had done previously to his unarmed population, Viriato does not anihilate the entrapped rest. He makes them prisoners and offers them a peace treaty. He convinces Maximo to sign a peace treaty where Lusitania and its Iberian allies should remain independent and romans should content themselves with the territories they already had in the coast. The roman senators were perplexed by such act. The arrogant Senate, used to declare its own treaties, bow themselves and ratifies a treaty for the first time since... a lot of years! But not for long. Some years later, in 139BC, the new consul Pero Servilio Scipio has other plans and, suported by the senate, breaks the treaty with the lusitans. When Viriato sends 3 ambassadors to discuss the meaning of such act, the roman bribes those same ambassadors with great riches to kill Viriato. Promising them even more gold after they return home and kill Viriato during his sleep in his own tent during the night.

The funeral of the great Viriato was inspired in those of Achilles narrated in Homero's Ilíada: “They arrayed the body of Viriato in splendid garments and burned it on a lofty funeral pile. Many sacrifices were offered for him. Troops of horse and foot in armor marched around him singing his praises in barbarian fashion. Nor did they depart from the funeral pile until the fire had gone out”

http://www.in-loco.com/morte_viriato.jpg
Reaction in the morning after finding Viriato's death

With his death, “a man who, for a barbarian, had the highest qualities of a commander, and was always foremost in facing danger and most exact in dividing the spoils,” the Lusitanian war was close to its end. “Other guerrilla bands continued to resist, the women bore arms with the men, who died with a will. Not a man of them showing his back, or uttering a cry. Of the women who were captured some killed themselves, others slew their children also with their own hands, considering death preferable to roman captivity.”

============================



After Viriatos' death, the initiative was lost (their successors were far from his military brilliance) and the romans began to conquer quickly more defenseless lands. But not without major losses, especially when they got near Numancia, who was not defenseless and where romans got their asses kicked really hard. The roman senate was biting their fists back home and saying: "How is it possible that the army that won over Carthage is so humiliated by those savages". And, the year after, in 138BC, another great roman humiliation (perhaps one of the greatest) hapened when an entire consular army under the consul Cayus Hostilius Mancinus was ambushed, while retreating from a siege in Numancia after seeing a giant coallition of tribes from all Iberia (even from Cantábria) who were fed up with those who brought their injust, criminal and bloodthirsty 'law'. Seeing that he was being followed after retreating from that siege, he rushed his march but the Iberians 'drove' him to an alley with no way of escaping. The iberians were way less bloodthirsty than the romans and, even those same men had killed and ravaged defenseless lands and pops, once again their lives were spared and, after parading in front of the proud winners with their consul ahead, they were escorted (to protect them from those same populations they had ravaged in the way back) out of Iberia and back to Rome. A peace treaty had also been signed with the consul. This was an enormous humiliation comparable to that imposed by the samnites on the romans at the 'Horcas Caudinas'.

Back at Rome, the senate was infuriated and accused Mancino of high treason sending him unarmed back to the gates of Numancia, naked and tied up, so that her inahbitants would give him death (a roman consul!). However, in another proof of their mercifulness, the Numantines received and treated him well respecting the peace treaty they had established with him before. The successive consules and their neverending armies kept arriving at Iberia -Emilio Lépido (137 aC), L. Furio Filón (136 aC) y Q. Calpurnio Pisón (135 aC)- but always kept away of Numantia.

But like Corinth and Carthage, their end would be cruel and dramatic. In 134BC, the same men that cruelly destroyed Carthage and its population, Scipio Emiliano, grandson of ScipioAfricanus, was now in Emporias ahead of 60000 men and also with a powerful and vast siege machinery. From there he marched towards Numancia, suddenly breaking once again a peace treaty. Numancia had 10000 pop of whom around 4000 were men able for the fight. With 1-15 odds and against such siege power their fate was doomed. When the provisions were running out, one of the numantines, Retógenes, ahead of a group of men, sailed out of the city and managed to pass through the roman fortifications (meanwhile built all around the city) geting to a near population, Lutia. Here, he got provisions and recruited 400 brave young men who were willing to help them. But Scipio Emiliano's spies informed him of this and roman ordered to amputate those 400 young men's both hands. The situation at Numantia, with no new provisions, was quickly geting to an end. Then all the pop, instead of being enslaved and taken to Rome, decided to take their lives. The all city burned in a giant 'pyre' and when the romans entered the city no more then a few hundreds were still alive, said to be lying on the ground without forces even to get up on their feet. Scipius Emilianus is said to have had great dificulties choosing the 50 prisoners that they were used to exhibit, and that he would chain to his car, in the Triumph ceremony parade, back at Rome.

Numancia had fallen, and till 19 BC almost all of the Iberia, with exception for those who took refuge in the high mountains, would eventually fall too. But as long as one Iberian lives, so will Numancia. Eternally."


almost all was translated from the following link:

http://www.historialago.com/leg_iber_01045_contra_roma_01.htm

some of it I took from the remaining roman accounts like Appian and others. If you wanna read more about the subject I totally recommend reading Appian book "The Iberian Wars" who was the roman surviving acount that was dedicated to describe in detail the roman Iberian wars.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-24-2004, 19:59
HanBaal']hi all! Excelent mod you guys are working for what I've seen so far! ~:cheers:

One of the first things that totally revolted me in RTW was the inaccuracy regarding some of the 'barbarian' units (and consequently carthaginian troops) from those ancient days... especially the iberian troops since I haven't played the other 'barbarian' nations still ... though I can guess. This mod will hopefully correct it and so I'm truly excited about the development of your work.


Just a couple of details from what I read so far. I read completely both the threads here and in the ' colosseum' (what a romanised name for the rtw forum btw.. i always destroy the colosseums in my campaigns in name of the thousands of slaves humiliated and killed in those arenas ;) ), and a couple of inaccuracies jumped right at my eyes! Without offense Khelvan, since I concur with most of what you said and suggested, you're wrong when you say this:

"Unfortunately, using your source, this would place the adoption of the pila well past Livy (c. 240 BC)." - khelvan

You repeat several times to defend your argument Livy's quotes suposing he wrote around 240BC..... Livy was born in 64 BC and died in 12 AD! He based lot of his writings in Polybius so how could he be prior to him?! Unless you're talking of a different Livy. So I totally am with Aymar that, just like the gladius was adopted from the Iberian falcata... so was the pilum from the Iberian soliferra.

And it is this last detail (the admitance of this Iberian gear superiority), together with the several defeats that these upgraded legions suffered against numerically inferior foes using that same gear (though for some long now and thus more experienced) that I was totally revolted to see the "Iberian Infantry" and "Iberian Scutarii" with such lousy stats ~:confused:


Among those Iberians there was a leader that managed to do what many (or all) nations didn't during the blitzkrieg of the roman republic post-pw2... the Lusitanians under the invincible Viriato managed to conquer back almost the whole of Iberia in a 7 year or so streak only stoping at the coast and allowing the romans to keep some their coastal cities since the romans decided to accept the peace Viriato offered them (11 of the 13 defeated generals sent were consuls!)... have you heard this?! Romans signing a forced peace treaty where they let go many of their lands? This goes out to show the military submission Viriato and his outnumbered army forced on Rome. The last battle was a battle described by Appian (the roman writer):

"in 140BC [near the end of the campaign started in 148-147BC] they sent the military famous consul Fabius Maximus Servilianus. Ahead of 18,000 troops and 1600 cavalry he is surprisingly ambushed and defeated by Viriato, who only kills 3000 and captures the rest, who surrendered.

"Viriato, at the head of 6000 troops, attacked him with loud shouts and barbaric clamor, his men wearing the long hair which in battles they are accustomed to shake in order to terrify their enemies."
Appian. Appian's Roman History Book 6, The Wars in Spain, Chapter 12

now explain me folks who had the 'hordes' in these battles ~D



Another clear example was the refusal of all italians to sign in the legions going to Iberia since their armies had become the boogey-man and the terror of the population. Then they had to resort to hiring numidians and some elephants and the result was this...

http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos_i_numancia_elef_01.jpg

.. more of the same ~:handball:


In conclusion, it wasn't by mistake that one roman leader once said about Iberia... "First to be invaded, last to be dominated". And I might add that hadn't been for the treacherous murder of Viriato a couple of years after he spared a captured roman consular army and its leader, even offering them a peace treaty and safe escort from the enraged pop out of his lands, the Iberian unity might have lasted and the sneaky roman tactics of divide and conquer (just like in Gaul) might have never worked in this land.
Wel, what can I say? You have explained very well some things I've been trying to hammer in people's heads, in this forum, for a long time. :thumbsup:

BTW, welcome to the ORG and to the EB thread. Wouldn't you be interested in joining our effort? :wink2:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-24-2004, 20:20
Playing as the Macedonians, I relized that they need a bit of help historical wise as well. The one cavalry looks like a Roman, and not one unit has the Boetian helm. Instead they have a floppy hat... ~:confused:
While they aren't as urgent as the rest of the factions, I think they should be evauntauly fixed.
Oh, yes. I've noticed it too. But that's not the only thing. Even Romans need some graphical editing and they are, IMHO, the best portraied faction. Rest assured, most units must be retouched or completelly overhauled (like Egypt). We just need people to start spotting and taking notes about which ones need to be modified to be Historically accurate, like you just did.


I was thinking about the fact that we only can have 300 units. Now, does that mean that Horse archer, for example is one unit? Or does it count for each faction, since each faction needs a different texture for that unit? If so, mabye we could get around this by elimanating faction colors. That way, the few unit that are shared between factions could just occupy one texture, rather than a whole bunch. This I feel, would also be far more historically acurate...
IIRC, no, it doesn't count for each faction. For example, when you look at a unit like Militia Hoplites, that's a generic Hellenic faction unit. It is a single unit type, although many factions can produce it. But this unit, depending on faction, has several specific texture to be applied in each particular case.

But I might be wrong, because I haven't studied the skinning atributes enough.

Dead Moroz
10-25-2004, 12:42
I greatly changed Eastern European part of RTW's map.

New features:

1. Proper proportions of forests and steppes.
2. More forests on the North.
3. No forests (with hidden experts;) in southern steppes (unfortunally it affects only strategy level, battlemap is full of trees again):
4. Smooth border between forests and steppes.
5. Better fertile lands on territory of modern Ukraine and Don-Volga basin.
6. More swamps on the North.
7. Swamps along shores of Caspian and Azov seas.
8. More forests in North-Western Caucasia.
9. Eastern border of Scythia moved east so that Maeotis is cut off Crimea.
10. Eastern border of Maeotis moved slightly east.
12. Hyperboria is full accessible now.
13. Tribus Sarmatae have access to Locus Gepidae and Hyperboria now.
14. Tribus Alanni have access to Hyperboria now.
15. Proper depicted area of Crimea.
16. Campus Scythii moved to the coast of Black Sea and renamed to Olbia.
17. Other Scythian cities and ports moved slightly.
18. Volga have only one ford to make it harder to cross.
19. Ford added to Don near Tanais.
20. Hills added to right banks of Dniepr, Don and Volga.
22. Hilly central part of Tribus Sarmatae.
23. Hills added near Carpathians.

------------------------------------------

Renamed:

regions
1. Pripet - Tribus Venedae ("Pripet" is later Slavic name of local river)
2. Bosphorus - Taurica
3. Phrygia - Mysia
4. Ionia - Lydia
5. Peloponnesus - Achaia


cities
1. Domus Dulcis Domus - Vicus Gepidae
2. Themiskyra - Vicus Fenae (Tacitus wrote about Fens - Finno-Ugrians - living here)
3. Campus Scythii - Olbia
4. Campus Getae - Tyras
5. Bylazora - Sardica
6. Rome - Roma
7. Carthage - Carthago


rebels
1. Amazons - Fenae (Tacitus wrote about Fens - Finno-Ugrians - living here)
2. Bosphorans - Chersonesans

------------------------------------------

Resources changes:

1. In Locus Gepidae - amber added
2. In Hyperboria - gold removed, timber added
3. In Tribus Alanni - hides(3) added
4. In Tribus Sarmatae - hides added
5. In Maeotis - hides added
6. In Scythia - grain and hides(2) added
7. In Tribus Iazyges - hides added
8. In Bosphorus - grain removed, wine added
9. In Colchis - wine added

http://img55.exs.cx/img55/3981/newmap1.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap1.jpg) http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5343/newmap2.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap2.jpg) http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5994/newmap3.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap3.jpg)
http://img55.exs.cx/img55/9985/newmap4.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap4.jpg) http://img55.exs.cx/img55/7389/newmap5.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap5.jpg) http://img55.exs.cx/img55/6199/newmap6.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap6.jpg) http://img55.exs.cx/img55/5380/newmap7.th.jpg (http://img55.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img55&image=newmap7.jpg)

It's very easy to implement it in the game. What do you think about it?

We can easily edit and create new provinces. Look at this pics!

Bosporus:
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/bosporus.jpg

Corsica:
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/corsica.jpg

My suggestions on changing the map:

http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/eb_map.jpg

1. New provinces:
- Bosporus(1) (done)
- Corsica(2) (done)
- new coastal province between Cirenaica and Egypt(5) (don't now how to call it)
- Raetia(6) (not sure about spelling)
2. Possible new provinces:
- Scandinavia(3) (it may be accessible part of Tribus Saxonae)
- Caledosia(4) (not sure)
- Melita(7) (not sure)
3. Change borders of:
- Maeotis(8) (done)
- Mauretania(9) and Carthage(10) to cut off Numidia from the sea
- Numidia(11)
- Dimmidi(12)
- Nepte(13)
- Leptic Magna(14) to make it just coastal province
- Cyrenaica(15) to cut off Siwa(16) from the sea

Let's discuss it!