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therother
10-16-2004, 04:13
Before starting, like a good scientist, I tried to predict the outcome of the experiment. I suspected that corruption would increase the further from the capital the settlement was, and that corruption would be a fraction of the settlement income (so that you can’t have 3000 Denarii corruption from a settlement only making 2000 gross). Taking a wild guess, I suspected the two would be related, i.e. that the distance from the capital would determine the fraction of income taken. I wasn't sure if it would be total income, or net, or any part thereof (e.g. only trade income).

All that being said, here's the basic graph:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/lm/research/therother/Corrupt2.gif

Now, I may post the full dataset to help others understand what this is all about.

For a start, the linear fit currently put through the data is nonsense. As I say above, I don’t believe there is a direct correspondence between distance and corruption. I think that income plays a part.

For instance:

Aquicium and Iuvavum (below 5000 pop), which have total incomes of 859 and 749 Denarii respectively. They are 39 and 45 squares away from my capital. They have corruption rates of 154, 172. But the one in the middle, Kydonia, has a more normal income of 5244, and corruption of 1048 Denarii. Now, if you are still paying attention, and took in what I said at the beginning of this post, you should notice that 154/859, 172/749, and 1048/5244 have similar values, in fact ranked, strangely, by their distance to the capital! I think some of you will see where I'm going with this...

Anyway, to cut the chase, here's the graph.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/lm/research/therother/ProportialCorrupt3.gif

Now maybe it's the not inconsiderable amount of alcohol I've consumed this evening, but that looks strangely like a correlation!

So here's what I'm suggesting: the fraction of income pinched by corruption rises linearly with the distance from capital. You have a grace distance of around 16 squares.


Dist Fraction
15 0
20 0.0333958
25 0.0739447
30 0.114494
35 0.155043
40 0.195592
45 0.236141
50 0.27669
55 0.317239
60 0.357788
65 0.398337
70 0.438885
75 0.479434
80 0.519983
85 0.560532
90 0.601081
95 0.64163
100 0.682179

So at 80 squares away, corruption will take 50% of your gross income (this doesn't take into account upkeep, wages, etc.) This tells you why the decision to move your capital is not just a public order decision, but a financial one as well.

Edits:

Thanks to zhurge for this equation:

Corruption is based on distance to capital (DTC) and gross income (GI) which is a total of farming (Fa), trade (Tr), taxes (Tx), mines (Mi).

Law temples (ie Athena) reduce corruption by (0.03)(GI) for each level. So level two reduces corruption by 6% of GI, and so on.



Alphabetical list of the coordinates of all settlements:

3^=Settlement Name|=x|=y| |=Settlement Name|=x|=y| |=Settlement Name|=x|=y
=Alesia|=66|=106| |=Damme|=95|=130| |=Petra|=206|=14
=Alexandria|=178|=19| |=Deva|=48|=139| |=Phraaspa|=241|=82
=Ancyra|=174|=67| |=Dimmidi|=38|=18| |=Porrolissum|=140|=98
=Antioch|=200|=55| |=Domus Dulcis Domus|=135|=139| |=Rhodes|=161|=45
=Apollonia|=124|=63| |=Dumatha|=240|=25| |=Rome|=95|=71
=Aquincum|=116|=101| |=Eburacum|=55|=140| |=Salamis|=189|=45
=Ariminum|=96|=82| |=Halicarnasus|=158|=49| |=Salona|=118|=75
=Arretium|=91|=80| |=Hatra|=216|=60| |=Samarobriva|=61|=118
=Arsakia|=253|=78| |=Iuvavum|=99|=104| |=Sardis|=162|=57
=Artaxarta|=227|=87| |=Jerusalem|=202|=32| |=Scallabis|=8|=72
=Asturica|=20|=87| |=Kotais|=216|=91| |=Segesta|=83|=84
=Athens|=144|=52| |=Kydonia|=146|=38| |=Segestica|=105|=90
=Batavodurum|=84|=127| |=Larissa|=136|=59| |=Seleucia|=241|=53
=Bordesholm|=87|=139| |=Lemonum|=47|=99| |=Sidon|=199|=42
=Bostra|=213|=27| |=Lepcis Magna|=96|=19| |=Sinope|=190|=80
=Bylazora|=136|=77| |=Lilybaeum|=94|=48| |=Siwa|=166|=2
=Byzantium|=160|=73| |=Londinium|=57|=128| |=Sparta|=138|=46
=Campus Alanni|=229|=131| |=Lovosice|=111|=113| |=Susa|=253|=50
=Campus Getae|=156|=100| |=Lugdunum|=66|=93| |=Syracuse|=106|=44
=Campus Iazyges|=131|=106| |=Massilia|=67|=82| |=Tanais|=190|=114
=Campus Sakae|=248|=152| |=Mazaka|=192|=68| |=Tara|=36|=142
=Campus Sarmatae|=181|=140| |=Mediolanium|=84|=92| |=Tarentum|=114|=63
=Campus Scythii|=157|=106| |=Memphis|=183|=13| |=Tarsus|=193|=58
=Capua|=102|=68| |=Messana|=106|=51| |=Thapsus|=83|=34
=Caralis|=79|=57| |=Mogontiacum|=88|=117| |=Thebes|=187|=2
=Carthage|=82|=45| |=Narbo Martius|=57|=84| |=Themiskyra|=186|=153
=Carthago Nova|=36|=58| |=Nepte|=61|=1| |=Thermon|=132|=55
=Chersonesos|=175|=95| |=Nicomedia|=165|=72| |=Thessalonica|=138|=68
=Cirta|=55|=41| |=Numantia|=26|=75| |=Tingi|=12|=46
=Condate Redonum|=46|=113| |=Osca|=44|=76| |=Trier|=79|=114
=Corduba|=17|=58| |=Palma|=54|=63| |=Tylis|=150|=83
=Corinth|=139|=50| |=Palmyra|=212|=46| |=Vicus Gothi|=111|=136
=Croton|=114|=57| |=Patavium|=94|=90| |=Vicus Marcomannii|=115|=125
=Cyrene|=130|=19| |=Pergamum|=154|=61| |=Vicus Venedae|=149|=129
=Damascus|=205|=43||||||||

As always, comments, suggestions, clarifications, errors, etc. gratefully received.

element
10-16-2004, 04:31
Wow that was a lot of research.. thanks for the info man. With so much of this game a mystery, like corruption for example, we need to figure it all out ourselves.

therother
10-16-2004, 05:16
Wow that was a lot of research.. thanks for the info man. With so much of this game a mystery, like corruption for example, we need to figure it all out ourselves.And I think we're doing a fine job of it too. A number of us have unwrapped quite a few of the mysteries of the game, from squalor to the diplomacy system. I think it's a testament to the resourcefulness of the patrons of The Org. Plus we've had some help from a Dev or two.

Speaking for myself, my next goal is to understand the trading system. That's the last thing I feel needs investigating before a comprehensive picture of the economic and city management systems can be constructed. Hopefully I'll have time over the weekend.

afrit
10-16-2004, 05:21
@therother,
brilliant work! I wish my real life research data looked so neat. You set out the hypothesis before testing, which is always a nice touch in science.


I suspected before that distance was measured as travel time, but now you have proven it is fixed as a square distance.

THe only other parameter I suspected was time. I thought corruption may rise over time for a particular city. I guess that was a wrong assumption as well.


thanks for the work

therother
10-16-2004, 05:46
@therother,
brilliant work! I wish my real life research data looked so neat. As do I!

Anyway, a few notes. The above data is for the Medium campaign difficulty. It appears that corruption is one of those things that varies with difficulty level. I will endeavour to find a conversion factor for the above data so we don't need 4 separate equations.

Also, corruption is also affected by buildings and Governor's traits/characters that deal with the Law. Improvements to Law decrease corruption.

Anyone know of anything else?

therother
10-16-2004, 06:01
The above data is for the Medium campaign difficulty. It appears that corruption is one of those things that varies with difficulty level. I will endeavour to find a conversion factor for the above data so we don't 4 separate equations.Good news, the corruption is only affected by the other income effects of changing the difficulty level, i.e. farming and taxes. The formula for calculating corruption remains unaffected.

RedKnight
10-16-2004, 08:17
Very pretty work, as always, therother!! There's so much info in this game, waiting for someone like you, with the skills - and gracious enough to donate the time - to make it clear. This game takes the basic Civilization concept and throws in a bunch more variables. That concept being, have a few simple things that interact in logical ways - which wind up needing quite a few decisions as one goes along.

Cool observation, afrit! The digital world, especially games, are so much more precise than messy organic things. ~:cheers: Woe be unto us the day that game programming gets so sophisticated that coders just drop in "fractal noise and occasional great irregularity generators" to spice up each parameter. It's coming, but I think us datamongers still have a couple decades before it gets really bad. Then again, we'll have even better tools then.

Therother, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the (very slight) variation you see at your lower end (small distances) are due to rounding in RTW's distance calculations. (Who knows whether they round up or down or off or something more complex due to several internal roundings?) Past that though, the points in the upper right show some clear variance. I wonder what that could be due to? Little rounding errors should've become relatively smaller at that point, when both values are larger. I have no clue.

thanks again m8! have one on us! ~:cheers:

sapi
10-16-2004, 09:27
Great info!

therother
10-16-2004, 09:42
Past that though, the points in the upper right show some clear variance. I wonder what that could be due to? Little rounding errors should've become relatively smaller at that point, when both values are larger. I have no clue.The relationship could very well be non-linear. Quite a few of them are away from "normal" ranges (e.g. they have caps, or after a certain limit the equation changes). Problem is that I don't have a large number of cities far enough away from my capital to be sure, and I can't (easily) create cities to test!

andrewt
10-16-2004, 09:47
Nice work. This makes all those provinces in the middle of nowhere much less valuable, especially the big ones where the city is in the corner e.g. Tribus Sakae.

RedKnight
10-16-2004, 09:55
That's a good point about the cut-offs, TR. They certainly happen in this game. And understandably so. If anyone has a savegame with almost all cities conquered, perhaps they could send it to TR? (The capitol can easily be changed - and I wonder what it would look like if your capitol was way off in a corner?)

Right, AT... I just occurred to me, "do I really wanted to tie one of my major stacks up in Dimmudi (SW Sahara) for tons of turns when it's got a 70% distance hit to Arretium?" :dizzy2:

therother
10-16-2004, 10:17
That's a good point about the cut-offs, TR.Something does seem to be happening at distances of 80+. But I'm a little too tired to continue on at it for now. Perhaps a 2nd tier, but still far too few points to be sure. Will get back to it later on today.

RedKnight
10-16-2004, 10:29
You've done enough work for 10 men for a day. So relax and play if you like, the brew's on us ~:cheers:

Oh sorry - I meant to say, "The omens are good, and the portents speak well." ~:cheers:

therother
10-16-2004, 11:03
There is actually an error in top point (forgot to remove the Governor). Will correct it in a moment.

Edit: Graph corrected. Despite the fact that the data know looks very good, I've been fiddling with a data point all the way up at 118, and that seem to be lower (very possibly significantly) than it should be.

But I have a few tricks left up my sleeve. In the meantime, if anyone wants to generate data, you will need top remove all the buildings/Governor's that affect Law before doing the calculations.

vodkafire
10-16-2004, 18:34
There is actually an error in top point (forgot to remove the Governor). Will correct it in a moment.

Edit: Graph corrected. Despite the fact that the data know looks very good, I've been fiddling with a data point all the way up at 118, and that seem to be lower (very possibly significantly) than it should be.

But I have a few tricks left up my sleeve. In the meantime, if anyone wants to generate data, you will need top remove all the buildings/Governor's that affect Law before doing the calculations.

Uh... Can anyone make a map centered on, say, Rome, and have "corruption radius" labeled every 10 percent or so? I have no idea how long a "square" is.

therother
10-16-2004, 22:02
Uh... Can anyone make a map centered on, say, Rome, and have "corruption radius" labeled every 10 percent or so? I have no idea how long a "square" is.The map is 254 by 155 squares. The distance between Rome & Tarentum in the South of Italy is 21 squares. The distance to the Patavium at the top is 34.4 squares. A square is each individual piece of the campaign map. Probably the best way to get a handle on the size is to right-click on an empty square. A little box will appear to tell you some info about that particular tile, e.g. high fertility or hills. It will also tell you what province the tile is in, and which faction owns as the colour of the box and the icon on the lower right will be that of the owner.

To see the different tiles, keep the RMB down, and move the mouse. Within the same tile, the box will stay at the same location. It will move when your cursor is outwith the first tile to a position it will maintain until you move out of the boundaries of that one. And so on.

Here's an image to give you a better handle on the distances:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/lm/research/therother/TarDist2.jpg

therother
10-18-2004, 01:27
Well, it seems that there may well be a hard limit to the proportion of your gross income that can go as corruption. As the new graph shows, it would seem to be 0.65 or 65% of your income. It reaches that point around 100 squares (tiles) away from your capital. This is roughly where the line on the graph above stops.

I still need more data points -- especially with cities ~100 squares apart -- so if anyone has a widespread empire, I'd appreciate it if you could either confirm this is the limit, or email the game to me.

Tzar Kaloyan
10-18-2004, 02:55
Very good work and some surprising results. I would not have, personally, expected linear correlation and two independent variables (distance and income). In my game play, I routinely look at the Financial parchment for my faction to see what income I will earn next turn. Then I move the capital and go back to the parchment to see if income increased (as a result of decreased corruption). In some cases, I have seen that the 'absolute middle' is NOT the base place for the best capital -- namely, if you have a number of wealthy cities skewed to one side of your empire.

Can't wait for your further work. Maybe you can send it to the moderator to turn it into a sticky.

afrit
10-18-2004, 02:58
My first campaign with Julii had an empire stretching from Londinium to Halicarnassus. Would that be useful for you?

You can view the minimap at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tonymakhlouf/rtw/julii_mini.jpg (48KB)

http://home.earthlink.net/~tonymakhlouf/rtw/julii_mini.jpg

and download the file at:
home.earthlink.net/~tonymakhlouf/rtw/julii_spreadout.sav (1.9 MB)

Afrit

therother
10-18-2004, 03:44
My first campaign with Julii had an empire stretching from Londinium to Halicarnassus. Would that be useful for you?Looks great, thanks. Just downloading it now.

PS I messed up the graphs there for a second. Should be fixed now though.

therother
10-18-2004, 04:14
In some cases, I have seen that the 'absolute middle' is NOT the base place for the best capital -- namely, if you have a number of wealthy cities skewed to one side of your empire.Well, yes, it's a trade off between a number of factors. The main two are, of course, corruption and public order. The "Distance to Capital effect" is purely to do with the straight-line distance from your settlements to the capital, whereas -- as you rightly point out -- there is a 2nd variable at work with corruption. It makes no sense in minimising corruption in your poorer cities at the expense of increasing it proportionally in your richer ones. In other words, saving 10% of 1000 Denarii at the expanse of 10% of 5000 Denarii makes little sense, all other things being equal.

There is also the fact that family members and Senate rewards appear in the capital, but I suppose that’s minor.


Can't wait for your further work. Maybe you can send it to the moderator to turn it into a sticky.In terms of research, I think I'm almost there, with just the hardest bit to do - trade. I suspect this is going to be a bit of a nightmare, but it might surprise me. In terms of collating all the data into a guide of some sort, I'm working on it slowly. If I get swamped with work I may just post an annotated index of relevant threads in the hope of someone else collating it into a comprehensive guide to economics and city management in RTW.

In fact, I might as well post the links of my various threads:

Squalor (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37586)
Distance to Capital PO penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38085)
Tax Income (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37831)
Slaves Resource (not enslaving) (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38046)
Culture and Unrest Public Order penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38089) - the only one of these I can't take any credit for.

And one on devastation:

Quietus's devastation breakthrough (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37831)

Couple those with Sinner's Temple Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37949)

and

Tamur's Diplomacy Guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=36993)

Edit Also useful is Spartan's Trait guide: here (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=44)


And I'm sure there's a kernel of a great guide.

I'm also sure there are other good threads hiding away in the forums. If anyone could point me to them, I'd be grateful.

therother
10-18-2004, 05:59
Just updated the 2nd graph again, probably the final update. Thanks to afrit I'm now pretty sure that corruption is capped at 65% of total income, and that this cap is applied at around 100 squares away from your capital.

All that remains is to discover the effects of Law buildings and traits on corruption. I expect this will be pretty straightforward. Just need to find a Governor with the appropriate traits/retinue.

RedKnight
10-18-2004, 15:42
afrit, if you move your capitol, is corruption immediately reflected on the financial parchment, or do you have to end a turn? If it's immediate then it makes it that much easier.

Therother, I am not seeing your second graph. Did you post it correctly?

Does anyone know whether the capitol has any other effects at all, besides Distance Disorder and appearance of new generals & gifts?

For the longest time I've been keeping my faction leader at my capitol (Arretium) since it was also close to Rome. Just in case my leader's Influence was distance related or something. But I have no idea if it is.

Edit: Ok, I see your second graph now, TR

SpencerH
10-18-2004, 18:04
Me again, I'm afraid.

http://www.arar86.dsl.pipex.com/TW/Corrupt2.gif

For a start, the linear fit currently put through the data is nonsense.

Unfortunately, you'll find figures just like this in every medical journal but they dont make the connection that the correlation is bogus and unduely influenced by the two outliers.

Nice work BTW

RedKnight
10-18-2004, 18:06
hey Therother (or anyone else), does anyone know just how much governor management points influence income? I can't seem to find hard numbers in the manual or online help. Tamur did an analysis here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=609839&posted=1#post609839) but didn't find anything conclusive - I'm asking him if he can be any more specific. Also, which of the various income sources are affected? Tamur thinks it's all of them.

Thanks if you can help! ~:cheers:

therother
10-18-2004, 20:05
afrit, if you move your capitol, is corruption immediately reflected on the financial parchment, or do you have to end a turn? If it's immediate then it makes it that much easier.It changes immediately.


Does anyone know whether the capitol has any other effects at all, besides Distance Disorder and appearance of new generals & gifts?I have suspected that the capital may get more trade income than other settlements. But this is based on entirely circumstantial evidence, which I wouldn’t put much faith in.


For the longest time I've been keeping my faction leader at my capitol (Arretium) since it was also close to Rome. Just in case my leader's Influence was distance related or something. But I have no idea if it is.I don't think it is, but as with the above, I've no evidence to prove it decisively.

therother
10-18-2004, 20:17
hey Therother (or anyone else), does anyone know just how much governor management points influence income? I can't seem to find hard numbers in the manual or online help.The manual isn't good with hard numbers! Last time I looked at this, it seemed to me that admin amounts to 5% per scroll of your total mining income. I think the % varies for other incomes. I seem to remember tax having no impact though, which surprised me a little.

Tamur did an analysis here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=609839&posted=1#post609839) but didn't find anything conclusive - I'm asking him if he can be any more specific. Also, which of the various income sources are affected? Tamur thinks it's all of them.Yes, but Tamur, bless him, has now decided to drop it all on me! Talk about pressure! ~;)

Thanks for pointing me to the thread, BTW. I'd forgotten that Admin was still unsolved, and don't know how I missed it first time around.

Tamur
10-18-2004, 20:31
ha, whoops. Yes, I'm unfortunately rather tied up at home for a while here, my research will have to wait a week for some broken bones to heal up (my wife's, which is actually MUCH worse than mine being broken ~:) ) Sorry therother!

zhuge
12-07-2004, 23:07
Corruption as elucidated by therother, is based on distance to capital (DTC) and gross income (GI) which is a total of farming (Fa), trade (Tr), taxes (Tx), mines (Mi) and admin (Ad).

Law temples (ie Athena) reduce corruption by (0.03)(GI).

By comparison, Trade temples (ie Hermes) improve trade income by (0.1)(TrL+TrSE) for each level. Trade income (Tr) is a total of land trade (TrL), sea imports (TrSI) and sea exports (TrSE).
Note that sea imports are not affected (which may explain the disparity in earlier reports). Building Traders has the same effect on trade as Trade temples.

There is therefore a good possibility that having a Law temple is not only better for public order but also better for finances.

therother
12-07-2004, 23:23
Note that sea imports are not affected (which may explain the disparity in earlier reports).A quick note: sea import values are defined by the exporter, and are always 20% of that income. So if city A is making 1000 Denarii by exporting to City B, City B will get 200 Denarii import income irrespective of other factors.

therother
12-24-2004, 00:16
Just added a table with the positions of all the settlements. This should help you to calculate what proportion of your gross income will be deducted for corruption.

avatar
12-31-2004, 20:39
Does garrison size affect corruption?

therother
01-04-2005, 03:56
Does garrison size affect corruption?Not that I could see.

sunsmountain
01-23-2005, 15:27
Corruption is easy to understand, and linear.

Distance to capital and total/gross income are the ONLY causes of corruption.
Corruption is a percentage of total trade, or Gross Income.
* Example: If you have 1000 corruption in a town at distance 40%, you will have 2000 corruption for that same town at distance 80%.

The distance is rounded, so you can calculate the exact number of squares, but the 'rough estimate' the game provides is accurate enough as it is.

Law is the ONLY solution to corruption.
Adding a law bonus reduces corruption by that percentage.
* Example: If a town is suffering 1000 corruption, adding 10% law reduces this to 900 corruption.

Governors can develop virtues (or vices, unfortunately) that increase or decrease corruption, by adding or removing law bonuses. Prerequisites, from what ive experienced so far (not tested): High distance to capital (70%+), high trade.

Simetrical
01-23-2005, 21:03
If you have 1000 corruption in a town at distance 40%, you will have 2000 corruption for that same town at distance 80%.
Close, but not quite. The connection is indeed linear, but you didn't account for either the offset ("grace distance") or cap. Corruption at 40 squares is not double the corruption at 20 squares—it's almost three times that, because the grace distance is approximately 15.88 squares. In other words, the proportion is roughly (40–15.88)/(20–15.88), or 5.85678, despite the fact that you only doubled the distance.

Adding a law bonus reduces corruption by that percentage.This assertion stands in direct opposition to zhuge's earlier statement that "Law temples (ie Athena) reduce corruption by (0.03)([Gross Income])," although I agree that the latter isn't that well worded (presumably it means per point). Yours also has an attractive simplicity to it, and it seems more intuitive that law reduces corruption by a percentage of corruption rather than a percentage of gross income. However, I must admit that I'm biased somewhat to accept what zhuge says over what you say. Could the two of you perhaps supply the methodology you used to establish your respective claims?

-Simetrical

zhuge
01-24-2005, 00:13
This assertion stands in direct opposition to zhuge's earlier statement that "Law temples (ie Athena) reduce corruption by (0.03)([Gross Income])," although I agree that the latter isn't that well worded (presumably it means per point).

Thanks for the reference. I admit to being rather sloppy in my wording but (0.03)(Gross Income) for each level of temple is correct, AFAICT, or should I say each point of law (since generals can add to this as well, by having traits like Drillmaster, Superb Administrator, etc)

However I must make 1 small amendment. It appears that the Admin bonus isn't factored into the Gross Income, so Gross Income here really just means Trade + Taxes + Farms + Mines.

Methodology:
Mouse over Corruption icon in Settlement Details scroll and record Corruption values, before and after demolishing Law temples and before and after moving generals with Law traits in and out of the city. Gross Income calculated by totalling all income sources (mousing over respective icons in Settlement Details scroll). Based on saved files from Greek (turn 17) and Julii (turn 34) campaigns.

Results:


GrossIncome(GI) Corruption Law level Corruption Difference/GI
Nicomedia 1300 299 1 (shrine Athena) 39/1300 = 0.030000
338 0 (razed shrine)

Lilybaeum 2259 225 2 (temple Athena) 136/2259 = 0.060204
361 0 (razed temple)

Pergamum 3073 368 2 (inprogress, blinking)185/3073 = 0.060202
460 1 (shrine Athena)
553 0 (razed)

Domus Dulcis D 798 271 1 (shrine Jupiter) 24/798 = 0.030075
295 0 (razed)

Damascus 1378(withAdmin) 664 3 (governor with law 3) 112/1253 = 0.089385
1253 776 0 (no governor)
governor has Management 5, supplying an extra 125 Admin income and is a Superb Administrator (Law +3)

Thapsus 1919 575 2 (temple Athena) 115/1919 = 0.059927
460 0 (razed)

Thapsuswithgov 1856(withAdmin) 382 3 (templeAthena+trait) 109/1820 = 0.059890
491 1 (law trait only)
Thapsuswithgov 1820
excluding Admin
governor has Management 1, supplying an extra 36 Admin income, is a Useless Assessor (-10% Tax), reducing tax from 982 to 883 and also a Drillmaster (Law +1)


Discussion:
Taking Lilybaeum above as an example, if temples were to have a 10% deduction on Corruption then Corruption should drop from 361 (without a temple) to 325 (L2 temple) or by 36 (roughly 10% of 361). As we can see, it actually drops much more to 225.
The reduction in corruption is therefore (0.03)(Gross Income) per point of Law (with each temple level giving 1 point) as can be seen from the data with Gross Income not including the Admin bonus in this case.

Comments are most welcome.

Lochar
03-19-2005, 19:33
I didnt see anyone mention it but it seems a garrison reduces or affects corruption as well.

Last night I bribed an out of the way rebel town and took it over. I happened to have the city detail window up and was buying peasants, after about 5 units I noticed my corruption dropped a bit, it went from 239 to about 200.

I always use my detail screen as for some reason even tho you dont actually have a unit made or structure built the detail screen will still reflect future puchases.

As far as how much garrison affects it, I dont know, I am not smart enough to figure that out..:)

Simetrical
03-21-2005, 00:08
I expect that the effect was due to the reduction in taxes and trade. Remember, corruption is a percentage of gross income.

-Simetrical

sunsmountain
04-07-2005, 23:18
I agree, simmetrical, that was probably not because of the garrison, but due to decreasing income from tax.

In this post i will make some rules of thumb based on what therother found, yet with % distance to capital instead of squares (even though squares to capital is more accurate).

(Corduba)
Distance to capital: 65%
Corruption: 2194
Gross Income: 4571
% corruption: 48,0%
Amount of law required to eliminate corruption: 80%

(Syracuse)
Distance to capital: 20%
Corruption: 320
Gross Income: 2286
% corruption: 14,0%
Amount of law required to eliminate corruption: 25% (actually, 23,3%)

With distance to capital i mean the % shown on settlement details, NOT the exact number of squares, because this is reduced by grace distance for all cities. Say distance B = A + grace. Distance C (double B) is then 2*A + grace. Distance to capital is used for simplicity's sake.

I mean you're not going to count squares every city every game. This post is for those who dont want to. 'Rules of thumb' stand next to 'True Formulaes'.


Close, but not quite. The connection is indeed linear, but you didn't account for either the offset ("grace distance") or cap. Corruption at 40 squares is not double the corruption at 20 squares—it's almost three times that, because the grace distance is approximately 15.88 squares. In other words, the proportion is roughly (40–15.88)/(20–15.88), or 5.85678, despite the fact that you only doubled the distance.
Corruption at 40 squares (15% distance to capital) is therefore 3 times the corruption at 20 squares (5% distance to capital). The point is that you can use distance to capital, which is more readily available than 'number of squares', which you have to calculate using s2 = x2 + y2, a bit labor intensive.

My previous statement:

Adding a law bonus reduces corruption by that percentage.
should be modified by 0.6. Ie 5% law reduces corruption by 3%, not 5%. I agree with the observations made by others, this is a good 1st rule of thumb.

The % corrupion seems to be about 0.73 times the distance to capital (not squares, don't confuse this with the 0.007935 factor therother found, though there is probably a relation).
Amount of law needed to eliminate corruption is the % corruption over gross income divide by 3 times 5. You will therefore never need more than 108.3% law, if that is at all possible.

maximum distance and minimum corruption at 80% allow us to calculate a more accurate factor than 0.73:
corruption at distance 80% = 60% of gross income
[corruption caps at 65%.]
maximum distance to capital = 80%.

The factor is therefore
%corruption = 0.75*%distance to capital.

2nd rule of thumb. This almost fits all the data. Corruption seems to go on beyond 80%, even though that should be the maximum, by a too large amount to be attributed solely to rounding.

Summary:

rule 1 (known):
every 5% law eliminates 3% corruption
corollary:
100% law (probably maximum) may remove 60% corrupion at 80% distance to capital.

rule 2 (roughly):
% corruption = 0.75 * %distance to capital.

MackBolan
05-09-2005, 16:13
I know I cannot be the only one this has occured to. In my Brutii campain i have a kingdom that spans from Southern Italy to Alex/Memphis/Thebes and mostly everything in between save for Pontus and Far East factions (parthia, Armenia, etc). Anyways, as I made my way down the coast I took Antioch. Suddenly my poor city had been bombared with Spys from Pontus, Selucids and Egypt. My revenue in Antioch was dramatically low. Lower than Tarsus, Sidon, Damascus and Jerusalem. Im talkin -800 give or take. Now I had moved my capital to Athens when i began moving on Turkey and then down to Africa. So i guess my question would be, does anyone know the Coruption that Spies cause? How much does it cause and how can I get rid of it. I know it HAS to be the Spies because all the neighboring cities are making more than Antioch and a few of them have close populations. A few within a few thousand. However, Antioch was being Spyed on CONSTANTLY and I would keep finding them. They're just little hooded, dagger bearing, fleas.

sunsmountain
05-16-2005, 22:38
Tempting though it may be to blame the spies, the buggers cause unrest (and 15% at least for each faction - not sure for each spy), not corruption. Which would mean you would have to lower the tax rate of Antioch, which would mean Antioch wouldn't 'pull its weight' which means negative income in that city.

Contribution of each city to income is weighed according to total income. If cities are performing below par, they show up on the map as having negative income.

Now if you look at those cities that have a distance to capital of 80%, they are usually the ones with Low Taxes and therefore negative income. To counter the situation, move your capital to the center of your empire (check with your finances tab to get the lowest amount of loss due to corruption). So try out a few cities and see which works best.

Ports, roads, traders do the rest. Make sure you dont use big garrisons for big cities, use Games, Races, & lower the growth rate (dont build farms). If its too late for that: Exterminate.

MackBolan
05-17-2005, 15:18
Just outta curiosity, lets say you have the whole RTW world, every faction assimilated into the Roman way of life, and every settlement captured (i know someone has done it on like, VH/VH), is the game designed for Rome to be the best capital, it is pretty much in the center of the campaign map? If not Rome, Id say Messana, or better yet Syracuse would be the best Capital. Anyone have any thoughts?