3 imperial heirlooms

[nokhor]

at the conclusion of the taira-minamoto war,at dannoura, the child emperor, antoku, i believe, along with at least some of the imperial heirlooms went to the bottom of the inland sea.

now i've heard the tale that the heirlooms that antoku had were copies and the minamoto kept the real ones. is this just minamoto propaganda?
if you were yoritomo and you had just lost the sacred items that protected the nation, a good way to gain legitimacy would be to replicate forgeries and claim that they were real and the ones that went to the bottom were actually fake. again, this is pure speculation, but it seems a lot more logical to me than that the minamoto had somehow managed to switch the heirlooms sometime during the war just in case a sea battle would be fought and they would be unable to retrieve them, after they won.

which brings me to another interesting idea. i don't know how deep the ocean is in the inland sea comparable to where the titanic sank, but since we can retrieve stuff from the titanic....
even if the heirlooms that sank were fake, they would still be priceless today, along with the other relics from the battle along the bottom of the sea.

[Minagawa Daimon]

good one

[solypsist]

so whip up a map, charter a boat and let's get on with it already!

[Ii Naomasa]

Ah! Now we're starting to discuss one of my favorite periods of Japanese history (what can I say? I prefer the legendary epics over the grime of the Sengoku period http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ). So, please forgive me if I ramble on with my most humble opinions...

So you are seeking the sword known as Ama-no-Murakumo-no-tsurugi, of Sword of Heavenly Gathering of Clouds, sometimes known as Kusanagi-no-tsurugi, or the Grass-cutting Sword when also applied to the legend of Yamato Takeru. A worthy goal, but unfortunately, one that would most probably bound to end in failure if it were ever seriously undertaken (heck, it probably many a times in the past).

The Imperial Regalia's history is mostly a string of legends and rumors. It's origins are, of course, mythological, and it seems to make appearances wherever convenient in older tales. You'd probably have better luck finding the Loch Ness monster than finding the 'true' Imperial Regalia of Japan. Some say that the Shinto shrine in Ise has all three original pieces handed down supposedly from Amaterasu to the forebearers of the Japanese Imperial line, as the emperors realized that the pieces would be in danger is left available. Others say the shrine only has the mirror, with little direction as to where the jewel is (assuming the sword is lost). Still others claim that the ones the Imperial family keeps are the originals. Unfortunately, the Imperial Regalia, no matter whose story you believe, is not something you rush off and take a splice out of for carbon dating. So today, if Emperor Akihito and the people in general felt like caring about it, he could come out holding a toothbrush, a piece of aluminum foil, and a vending machine 'gem' and people would accept it as the Regalia (yes, quite the exaggeration, but my point is in how little fact we have to go on...my apologies to anyone who believes I would take the topic lightly).

Given the musical chairs number that the Emperors did for so many centuries around the turn of the first millenium A.D., with Emperors being desposed left and right only to find someone with enough power to advocate them again (after all, everyone who was being pushed for the throne was, no matter how thinly, a blood relative (supposedly, anyway), so legitimacy could not be used), I'd be surprised if the original Regalia survived the period, unless it was held at a foreign location.

The Regalia's importance is as a symbol. For a long time, it was deeply important to the psyche of the nation to have stability, even in the face of chaos. The continual (through branching) bloodline is one example and another is the symbolism of the Regalia.

Interestingly enough, I don't know if we have a definitive written reaction of Yoritomo to the loss of the sword (if such happened...the Tale of Heike is the main place where this is recorded that survives today (and maybe the only primary source available in English), and it was written around the beginning of the 13th century and not refined until near the end of the same century). If I recall the bits I have read of the Azuma Kagami, which is a historical work written in the same period as the Tale of Heike, seems to make Yoritomo to be more concerned over Yoshitsune's fame for his accomplisments at Dannoura and his supposedly growing ego than the loss of the Imperial sword. Given Yoritomo's character, I could see this. Unlike most of the warrior class at the time (Yoshitsune included), Yoritomo's actions seem to indicate a decisively innovative way of thinking; that the warrior class is not necessarily directly subservient of the nobility. Of course, as later generations turned the Emperor and his court into figureheads while Shoguns ruled, this would seem obvious, but the bushi of the 12th century were still very much the sword arms of the Emperor. Taira Kiyomori was at the middle of that century, arguably, THE most powerful individual in Japan. He was at the head of the dominant military family and most of the other powerful families followed him to varying degrees. Yet he never tried to overstep his bounds. Oh, he worked it out that his grandson would be in line for the throne, but he sort to further his family's influence and lineage through the aristocracy. Yoritomo from nearly the start of his campaign, seems to have wanted to found a new order of his own. It even bothered him when the Emperor bestowed favors upon Yoshitsune, which went against his own decisions on who should get what. So while I could see Yoritomo eventually giving the Emperor the sword the Minamoto 'recovered' from the battle, it would probably have been more for show than anything.

But, now I'm carrying on tangents!

In any case, I have not been to the area near where the battle occurred (still on my list of things to do when I have the time and money to do so), but I remember once, out of curiosity, looking at an ocean topographical map of Japan for the very reason you're curious. While it's a little deeper than one might expect for a body of what so close the shore (remember the islands' origins, though), it's far from Titanic-deep (I may have that map around...if I can find it, or dig one up quickly, I'll tell you exactly how far). While this may bode well for archaeologists, it actually probably works against them, for anything of value has already by taken by nature, accident, or deliberate attempt to make money off of it. I have heard of a few archaeological studies of the area, but I don't recall anything in particular.

I've been meaning to visit the extensive Japanese history/culture library at the UoM again...so next time, I'll see if I can't dig up anything more on any explorations of the area.

In anycase, if we were to look for the 'original' Ama-no-Murakumo-no-tsurugi at Dannoura, (and nothing had ever been removed) it wouldn't be that difficult, as you'd just have to look for the one sword that definitely wasn't a 10th-12th century blade, but probably a straight edged sword that looked more like something from China or Korea in the early centuries A.D. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Remember that if anyone tries to pass off an image of a tachi (or worse, a katana) as the Imperial Regalia.

(Yikes! This didn't seem THAT long when I was writing it...I'll be surprised if anyone gets through it on less than one nap... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I'll try to edit it down in the morning)

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 01-17-2001).]

[FwSeal]

This is a bit off-topic (in a way), but... I am sure that the idea of dredging up the battleground (or ocean floor, in this case) must have been either attempted or considered at least once. I know that other efforts have been made that are somewhat similar. For example, years ago a group conducted some dives into Lake Suwa hoping to find the body of Takeda Shingen. According to one story, he was dumped there in a jar (as is depicted in the movie Kagemusha), and thus the crew hoped to find him in a reasonable condition (they didn't find anything). Also, Date Masamune's grave was examined a while ago and thanks to modern technology some interesting physical facts were uncovered - including that he stood at 159.4 centimeters, was of average build, and that his bloodtype was B (this from hair samples).

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Now that you mention it, Naomasa-sama: if the site for the Battle of Dan-no-Ura could be found, archaeological diving would probably produce some pretty interesting results, *regardless* of whether the Regalia is there or not.

As you said, to find the Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi (assuming it hasn't rusted away long ago), the divers would have to comb through hoards of 12th century tachi to find the one that's older.

Hoards of 12th century tachi swords, those kotô (old swords) period blades that are generally considered the finest examples of human weaponcraftsmanship. Indeed, the Taira family being as high-ranking as it was, probably the very best swords the Heian period ever produced. Wooo hooo... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

On a more serious note, I think your post doesn't need down-editing, Naomasa-sama: I like the occasional longer post, and yours are always full of substance.

------------------
"Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring, / With the very bluest stockings, / On the ground the haft set firmly, / On the heath the hilt pressed tightly, / Turned the point against his bosom, / And upon the point he threw him, / Thus he found the death he sought for, / Cast himself into destruction."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVI, verses 335-342

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 01-18-2001).]