I give up [Archive]

AMP

10-19-2004, 07:25

Imperial Glory has nice graphics, now we need a demo to tell if the gameplay is gonna be good. it's a hard combination to get in a game.. good graphics and good gameplay. maybe they just need people with common sense or a few gamers to play test and give pointers as they are making it.

before this game i've played total annihaltion for 1yr and populous the begining for 3yrs. i've had to close the book on both because the support sucked.. well populous the begining support really suck and they wondered why not many were playing online... duh. i hope i don't have to close the book on the tw series, but it sure looks like i will soon.. all good things must come to an end?

Paolai

10-19-2004, 09:23

from what I heard Imperial Glory will be out between February/May.

Sp00n

10-19-2004, 10:16

Theres a small article in this months PCGamer UK about Imperial Glory and the graphics look pretty good what makes me not get too excited about it is the fact its made by the same team who made Praetorians, whihc was pretty dull, but having said that the Napoleonic era is pretty exciting so could be very good, says release spring next year.

MizuSp00n

Paolai

10-19-2004, 10:27

but a morale system is implemented in Imperial Glory

Orda Khan

10-19-2004, 17:48

I hear what you are saying guys but for me this is the only PC game I've played online. I have always been interested in history and the appeal of taking part in huge wars online is what attracted me to the game. I would have to say Shogun was the most enjoyable even though MTW had some improvements to the commands that made army control easier even than STW. That bar over your groups and the fact that you could select any number of units from within a group. Remember on STW where you could choose one unit, all of same unit or the whole group only? Then there was the Alt/RightClick facing command followed immediately by Alt/Left Click, whereby your army would wheel and march to new destination and still arrive in formation. Draw out your units and right click to get even unit depth.

What has RTW introduced that improves on either of the previous titles? Stuff all!! Nice graphics that require we go and upgrade our PC's. What's the point? You can't even save a campaign game to watch the replay from ' a soldiers view ' and the AI is still as thick as ever. The SP campaign becomes as repetitive as it ever was, even with a pretty campaign map and the usual nonsense is still there. The 'surprise' that your ally stabs you in the back is so predictable you can actually choose who you would like to go to war with simply by negotiating trade rights. Then we have the blindfolded archers who kill their own men. I have fought battles where my HA were actually killing men in their own unit!!! I lost more men to my own arrows than to the entire enemy army. So nice that my HA can finally shoot on the move, such a shame they are so indiscriminate

I already posted I don't think CA will come close to fixing this game, for a start we would need an entirely new MP foyer. You can't fix the one we have, it's useless! We need a new one.
Thanks to the splendid new graphics the classic 4v4 has been removed and CA has effectively hosted a game called '3v3 No 56k !!!' ...and yes I do have broadband. I need broadband to play a 3v3???? Again I fail to see the point. I have been waiting for a game where the battles actually resembled battles and I had high hopes after watching Time Commanders, then this [ insert what you like ] came out. So now I'm beginning to realise that game will never come, or at least it seems, not from CA. My options now are to sell it or bin it because it's already gathering dust on my shelf.

It will be kick in the guts I'll admit, I've 'met' a lot of very nice people and made loads of friends worldwide but I fear that many have actually left already. I'll hang around these forums in the vain hope that a miracle will occur but I really just can't see it happening

.......Orda

Sp00n

10-19-2004, 18:01

Couldnt agree more Orda :). Its a shame thats after well over 4 years a lot of the community are leaving Id hang on to your copy a little longer and wait and see if CA can do anything.
Ive already decided to contact PC gamer again and tell them whats going on in the online community of the game and remind them of their poorly judged statement in their review that the MP game is a great improvement on MTW.

There are other games out there m8, not many set in the swordplay eras of TotalWar though.

Im amazed actually that not one developer has copied Shoguns style of play in 4 years, CA need the competition.

MizuSp00n

Dionysus9

10-19-2004, 19:01

Whats funny is that there has never before been so many players online. You can't really say its dead, because its never been more thriving. Dead for us, maybe....

I guess I'm in denial. I played a 1v1 against the Goat last night, and it was a stellar game. I've had several very good games lately. The lobby sucks tho.

I just cant see playing any other RTS or FPS games as I have been hooked on TW for over 3 years. At the very least I would go back to MTW:VI, or when that server shuts down, the STW:MI Fakeserver program.

But for now I am still having decent 1v1's, 2v2's, and 3v3's. I'm missing the 4v4's though.

As for army movement, you can right-click-and-drag a group rather than Alt-Right/Alt-Left, but it only works on an individual group basis. If you try to combine groups it buggers it up.

So basically I am using a single group for my army, or maybe a couple of groups (flank cav) that move independently of hte main army. Using right-drag to move them in formation--problem is you cant run with the run bug. So Ungrouping to run, then grouping agian. lol.

One thing that is new and better about army movement is that if you change your mind during a movement order, you can re-right-click-drag to a new location an still retain formation and end up in the right facing. That was never possible before.

Of course it only works for one group at a time, but if you group your entire army it works.

Obviously this is far from ideal, but in my opinion its still better than FPS games and AoE style RTS (resource collection, blech). So what are you going to do? Take up knitting?

Its a pain but I tell you what, the new players don't even know the bugs/problems are there

Sp00n

10-19-2004, 21:08

I had your opinion Bachus and I gave it a go for 60 or so games, its quite good for a time after you accept that the controls suck, but you get bored of it very quickly after 60 games I just dont want to play it and I doubt very much if it will have the lasting appeal that the other 2 games had, after that amount of games the bugs get to you for example the archers that wont change targets and outrun cheetahs get to me.

They have so many players IMO mainly due the huge publicity surrounding this game with BBc 2s Time Commanders and the program on the History Channel together with the hype in all the PC magazines most I must add were on drugs when reviewing the MP side..

The multiplayer has benefitied from all this, to players who have never played the games online before it probably seems pretty good, but it cant have the lasting appeal that the other games had in its current state, after a few months people get bored of games, I endlessly drift from FPS to FPS online from Battlefield 1942 to Planetside to Counter Strike to Unreal 2004, Total War always had lasting appeal I never left Shogun I played it religously for 2.5 years (one stint whilst out of work I played it nonstop for 4months sad I know), I did the same with MTW but I left for a bout 6 months and played Eve(which I have now returned too), but I came back and ill go back to it again at some point, but I cant honestly say that ill come back to Rome as it stands.

I have never anticipated a game as much as I did Rome after seeing it on Time Commanders and like the SP I really do, but after 2 campaigns im bored.
The MP has been the biggest single dissapointment I can recall in a game and made me trade my copy back in a week back.

I really do hand on heart hope CA try and sort it out because I love Total War games, but with Rome MP I feel betrayed.

MizuSp00n

PS Rome being so bad had made my girlfriend one of the happiest people around as I now spend less time on my Pc and more with her I reckon shes secretly been raising money and has bribed CA to make the game bad online.(why cant she be like Swooshie and play the game)

Please please please CA make it better so I can play again and spend less time having to watch soaps PopIdol and QVC zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

DanMasey

10-19-2004, 21:35

Woah. I'm shocked about some of these replies.

I can see there are a few bugs, but these will be fixed...

I myself am addicted to Rome... I love it... I prefer it so much compared to Medievil and especially Shogun...

Ah well... I suppose we all have our opinions...

ElmarkOFear

10-19-2004, 21:42

Did you play MP Massey? If so, what was your STW and/or MTW name. I probably have lost to you at some point. hehe

DanMasey

10-19-2004, 22:44

My Medievil name was Mase and Lucretius.

I didn't actually play any MP for Shogun. I remember having trouble and never bothering...

DanMasey

10-19-2004, 22:49

Also, I very much doubt I have beaten you.

I have played around 40-60 games and am still a complete noob. I suppose thats one of the reasons why I love Rome... I don't have to play against Veterans unlike Medievil...

On Rome I have played 12, Won 11 and lost 1...

Damn that Parthian guy... Heh.

ElmarkOFear

10-19-2004, 23:17

LOL RTW is the "Great Equalizer" it seems.

Darn! There goes my shot a being the only player to have been beaten by EVERY MTW MP player! If you are ever in the MTW/VI MP lobby, let me know and I will make sure you get a nice W in the Win column. ~:)

DanMasey

10-19-2004, 23:47

*Druels*

Ummm, W.

Orda Khan

10-19-2004, 23:48

Well having played STW where we all had variables of the same army, the idea of different factions with unique abilities and such did seem quite appealing. Then of course there were the problems relating to stats and upgrades that basically determined variables of the same army due to weaknesses of certain factions. So MTW had better commands but lacked the gameplay of STW. So now we have RTW and some say there are no problems with unit speed, well I have to laugh but hey what do I care anymore? If people enjoy the unrealistic feel of RTW battles who am I to question them? I want my armies to behave realistically and this lot don't. I want control over my army, I want them to obey orders and they don't. I don't want them to kill each other and this they can certainly do and very well. I won't take up knitting quite yet ~:) but I could easily decide to admit to myself that the series has run it's course. Maybe my time would be better applied to my hobbies and activities that take me away from my PC. I have a new bow on order, I could concentrate on that. As much as I have enjoyed the series I won't be playing a game that IMO is still in the beta stage ( well maybe not even beta ) I'll leave RTW on the shelf in the vain hope that I might one day enjoy a realistic battle, like the ones I watched on Time Commanders.
Hmmm winter is coming and I work outdoors, maybe knitting is a good option

.....Orda

LittleGrizzly

10-20-2004, 01:05

another big loss to the game. any clans completely eradicated yet or we still down to individual players ?

Colovion

10-20-2004, 01:15

Well Orda I hope to see you back online sometime later if not sooner. I played a dozen or so battles with the present RTW system and stopped after that. I'm going to wait and give CA the benefit of the doubt and wait until the next patch before playing any more serious MP games. I'm very interested in what the community will look like in a year from now - and I shudder to think what it could be as well.

Time Commanders had some mighty fine editors to fool us like this....

Colovion

10-20-2004, 01:16

another big loss to the game. any clans completely eradicated yet or we still down to individual players ?

we'll probably see how many people are resolute in sticking around after we see CA's first patch/attempt to save the MP community

Kas

10-20-2004, 01:49

there 2 MI/WE "fake" servers ~D

:eeeek:

Puzz3D

10-20-2004, 13:16

we'll probably see how many people are resolute in sticking around after we see CA's first patch/attempt to save the MP community

Let's hope there is more than one more patch.

CBR

10-20-2004, 13:19

The standard patch policy has always been to make one patch only. We only got the quick 1.1 because of the serious 30 player limit on chat lobby.

CBR

Voigtkampf

10-20-2004, 19:26

Pardon my off topic, but “fake” servers for S:TW and M:TW? Huh? I am a complete n00b as far the MP component of TW is concerned, and I never thought one would need fake servers to play any of those games; one would just simply host and the others would join it… I know all about FPS cracked servers, but TW fake servers? I would appreciate some explanations, via PM if you would care to share any information that might be regarded… Well… Inappropriate for open forums? ~:cool:

BTW, I bought myself Rome five days ago, and still haven’t come around to it to play it online. I only know that I miss Medieval so much that I am seriously considering to start playing M:TW online; better late than never, huh? ~;)

CBR

10-20-2004, 19:37

Well there is a fake server that works for STW/MI. Thats what we have been using lately as the official EA servers have been closed down some months ago.

Yuuki and I had a few 2v2 test battles with the STWmod for VI last night and I must say it was a pleasure to use some proper controls again. I did miss the right click and box selection from RTW but the MTW icons, lower speed and alt left click to preserve facing is just so much better.

CBR

LittleGrizzly

10-21-2004, 14:11

MTW and VI don't need fakeserver is just for stw/mi the reason its there is because EA's server is down and CA code for it needed to be cracked because they don't allow fakeservers to come up because they don't check cd-keys

Squirrel_of_hatred

10-29-2004, 04:21

MP its laughable really i was so looking forward to the mp in this game. seems you can only play as romans if you dont want to be at a disadvantage as every other faction is inferior. i normally like to play as the least played faction in other games just to be different but the gap here is just to big. but my favorite parts of the MP would be "failed to connect to host" now that explanation will help me rectify the problem sheesh and to try and host i would get something like gamespy cannot host possibly due to a firewall sigh. hundreds of people have this problem and its all our fault for not switching off our firewall's :furious3: yeah right. seems they have their heads in the sand for this one. anybody recommend a good online game of the strategy/rpg variety as connecting to 1 game in 30 to rome has finnaly made me quit ill install the next patch(yes after 1.1) and cross my fingers till then...

Aelwyn

11-01-2004, 19:57

PS Rome being so bad had made my girlfriend one of the happiest people around as I now spend less time on my Pc and more with her

Same for me. ~;) My girlfriend has seen me more recently then she ever has. And now I'm labeled as a 'good boyfriend' because I have been more attentive. Little does she know its only because some other people she doesn't know did a poor job creating a game. Kinda funny if you think about it.

And I just tried to play online again last night, since the one and only game I have played. And, it still is the only one, since I "Failed to connect to host" every time I tried to join a game. I was online for well over an hour last night. Not one game would even connect.

I'm pretty much done as well with the game. And most likely any further CA game.

UglyandHasty

11-01-2004, 22:22

Too bad Ael. I have give up too 2 weeks ago. SP is not enough to keep my hook on RTW. So i am looking for another game now ........

Sp00n

11-02-2004, 10:26

I know exactly how you feel Aelwyn, we can but hope that CA sort it out, but the fact remains games shoulnt be released in such an uncompleted version.

Im now giving the GF less time again as im back playing Eve online, space pirate hunting takes a lot of time.

Stay in touch in the forums though m8 be a shame if the community dies completely.

Sp00n

dessa14

11-02-2004, 10:32

a good game is victoria, or Hearts of iron.
Great multiplayer, lasts a really long time
thanks,
dessa

Kas

11-02-2004, 13:40

Call of Duty + United offensive add on. ~D

Voigtkampf

11-02-2004, 16:16

Call of Duty without the add-on! ~;)

Orda Khan

11-05-2004, 21:54

A month has passed, a petition has been handed to CA and no response. I guess it's a case of suspicions confirmed.

The Total War scene was fun while it lasted and there are a lot of warm, decent people in our community. Thanks all for a couple of years of great fun

.....Orda

Cheetah

11-07-2004, 18:27

Never give up!

Dionysus9

11-07-2004, 20:43

there was a response... no fixes yet, but they thanked us and said they'd work on it.

Voigtkampf

11-07-2004, 22:38

Orda Khan, why not keep up with the Medieval at least?

Orda Khan

11-08-2004, 00:08

Orda Khan, why not keep up with the Medieval at least?

While I would be the first to praise MTW for the excellent simplicity of its commands, unfortunately the imbalances found from faction to faction, unit to unit spoiled the experience for me. The Muslim factions are weaker than the Europeans. Yes it is possible to win with Muslims but I would argue that one needs to be either an excellent player or at least a better player than ones opponent. CWC made this glaringly obvious and because the cav/sword army became the norm and later the rush armies, only exasurbated this issue.

It would have been nice to see Euro and Muslim spears both with equal stats, Euro and Muslim cav both with equal stats, Euro and Muslim ranged both with equal stats etc, etc.

MTW and MTW/VI deteriorated when stat compare tools were released because everyone wants a winning army right? Well I was happy enough with experimental armies, fun armies. Within no time the 'usual' armies were fielded over and over and quite honestly, the game became tedious. The games all became like the 'competitive' games of STW....must win... and fun games became rare indeed.

Admitted, there were some faction v faction battles that were quite enjoyable but in general, unless the game was modded, it was a case of going through the motions for me.

CA saying 'thanks' and 'we'll look into this' doesn't exactly make me over optimistic, let's face it they should never have made such a terrible mess in the first place IMO. STW, STW/MI, MTW, MTW/VI....... how much practise do they need? And further, how long must we be patient and wait for a fix that may ( or may not ) help? We all coughed up the cash, we all love the game ( or at least the principle of the game ) yet the MP side keeps getting progressively worse. Anyone who doubts this need only compare the STW lobby with RTW. Coupled to this is the fact that the players have mostly left anyway....

Krast summed things up perfectly in his post in the Sword Dojo

......Orda

Brutal DLX

11-09-2004, 11:57

Well, it's sad to see a veteran player calling it quits..

I, for my part, won't be playing RTW until I see a major improvement in unit control (and some in unit stats, of course), be it with a patch or be it in the expansion, but until then, I try to play MTW at least once a week, usually on wednesdays, but during the week (don't know about the weekend), it seems to have come to the point that there are only ~15 to 20 people in the lobby, which makes it hard to get large games going. I encourage all vets who are undecided about RTW (and waiting idly) to return to VI for the time being, and perhaps it's possible to set special days/times for playing so we will have more ppl in the lobby (much like the STW procedure)!
Sure, VI still has its known flaws, but I think they are easier to cope with than with RTW's in its current state.

CrackedAxe

11-14-2004, 12:19

Like others, I'm off the RTW MP scene until theres a marked improvement in the game. It sucks up too much time with too little reward, as finding a game you can actually join is painstaking. I hate the lobby also, its so ugly it makes my eyes hurt. Think i'll pop back to MTW and see how many peeps are still there.

KyodaiSteeleye

11-15-2004, 00:56

loads mate, after an initial lull, people are starting to stream back - there's a good community going most nights now.

~:)

PanzerJaeger

11-15-2004, 01:48

I give up

Join the crowd... :disappointed:

Dionysus9

11-15-2004, 03:59

After playing RTW for several weeks and then going back to MTW, I can say I've never been happier with Viking Invasion. So far it is the closest CA has come to the multiplayer game we are looking for.

As for RTW, we'll just have to wait and see.

Tera

11-15-2004, 08:40

Puzz3D

11-15-2004, 15:41

VI fixed several bad things with MTW and it's the most evolved MP platform we have in the TW series. Although the paper-rock-scissors system isn't as top notch as in STW 1.12, VI is still wonderfully enjoyable especially when you use different maps and settings rather than a bland high-steppes game. I'm playing VI again yes..

I've made an STW v1.12 stat for Barocca's STWmod for MTW/VI. It plays remarkably like STW v1.12. I'm now evaluating the costs of the last 3 units, ninja, kensai and hatamoto, and will release this stat after that. Krypta and I are also in the process of converting all the original STW maps for use in MTW.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

11-15-2004, 16:04

For one, I am not giving up.

I still play VI on wednesday. But the more I play RTW, the more fault I find to VI.

I am not denying that RTW got many faults, and I am not going to list them all again. Too many of them. But when I got a good RTW game going, it's good, fun and tactically challenging.

Now, VI also got a couple of issue that seems small before but glaring now. Feel free to laugh at me;
- left click to select, left click to move/ attack is confuding me a lot. Very unconvenient, I keep selecting units in the mess instead of gettting them to move... or the opposite.
- I don't know which units I am controlling anymore. Glow and green arrows are ugly, but at least you know which unit is selected! In VI, I am not sure, I got to look at the screen, I am not used to that anymore ~D

I'd find it very difficult to go back to VI only. If one day I give up (and that's not now, that's for sure), I'll give up on TW alltogether.

Louis,

L'Impresario

11-15-2004, 17:06

- left click to select, left click to move/ attack is confuding me a lot. Very unconvenient, I keep selecting units in the mess instead of gettting them to move... or the opposite.
- I don't know which units I am controlling anymore. Glow and green arrows are ugly, but at least you know which unit is selected! In VI, I am not sure, I got to look at the screen, I am not used to that anymore ~D

That's why it 's wise sometimes to press enter after you moved a unit, and hold shift while clicking it s destination ~;)
On the other hand, I had troubles seeing the glow heh
All things seem to be a matter of habits ~:)

ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint

11-15-2004, 22:50

I'm jealous of those who've played RTW online and found it lacking due to the bugs. I bought it the day it was released in the US and have only been able to get into 2 games! Every other time it says "failed to connect." I can't even get into a 1v1 with a clanmate.

MTW/VI is the first and only time I've ever played anything online so I'm not giving up yet, but I have given up on trying to log into RTW online. I'm back to medieval for now, though far less frequently than I used to. I'm playing with "experimental" armies now which puts me at the mercy of "standard" armies but I'm managing to eeek out a little more fun from the game. I wonder if a "no pav" rule might add some enjoyment to it. Nonetheless, I think RTW or a successor to it is the best hope for the TW community. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Ghost of Rom

11-16-2004, 08:31

Sounds like a lot to fix in this game with a patch. Here's to hoping CA listens a bit and improves the gameplay, if not with a patch then at least with the next expansion.

mk_crusader

11-16-2004, 12:50

Orda - dont give up untill we know what the game will be like after a patch

Both STW and MTW needed patches that made them as enjoyable as they were

I too only play one game - TW series and am massively pissed off and dissapointed with the latest attempt - but I wont give up because

I know the game will improve with a patch and secondly there are too many good people in the community

We just have to be patient - untill the patch I will go back to MTW/VI too as that will prevent me going down the boozer and spending money ~:)

Hail the TW community

Cruz

Sp00n

11-16-2004, 13:11

I dont have your faith im afrid Crusader :) although I hope you are right.

I doubt very much they will be able to fix the awful controls in Rome with the patch which is one of the main reasons I wont play it.

Shogun and MTW had perfectly good control systems when they were released Rome doesnt, thats the big difference, Shogun and MTW were enjoyable and playable in all versions even with the bugs that they had on release.

There are other online games out there im afraid to say and some very good ones at that, but I like you guys want to be able to play Total War I cant see it happening with Rome so maybe ill return to MTW when the new mod pack including the Shogun mod comes out, until then my friends ill see you here.

MizuSp00n :help:

Dimeola

11-17-2004, 07:48

My first love was STW and played thru to now. Yes there have been many fine folks online. Have appreciated the decorum and friendship. There was something of a sense of Honor in those days. These days there are too many trolls wearing the robes of royalty. `When` I can get into RTW MP and `if` I can get into a game there is no one hardly saying `good-game`. There is very little communication between allies. There is no planning and no co-ordination. Tonight while waiting for my third game the lobby broke into a long discourse of profanity. There is no longer Honor and no...shibumi...refinement.
I am going back to STW and Japanese graphics. Would like to see STW redone but on a larger scale. Take the map and increase the size and break the provinces into sub-provinces. Add a ton of detail and some other things. This old Ronin is going back up into the mountains for awhile.
D

Voigtkampf

11-17-2004, 10:02

Indeed, very few high valor opponents on R:TW these days. I always pay my respects, wish the opponent a good game, fun, strength and honor, and I always thank for the game no matter how rushed, stupid or otherwise lacking my opponent/the game itself was.

The opponents mostly don’t sound a word or simply say “lol”. Gah. ~:handball:

I imagined it would be different, according to the high amount of high valor members on these boards :bow: but I guess they are all still playing Medieval.

I’m not giving up though.

Dionysus9

11-17-2004, 17:46

The final version of the MTW:Shogun mod will be released by the Mizus here very shortly and then, Dimeolas, you will have much of what you've asked for.

Puzz3D

11-18-2004, 14:06

We got in two 1v1 and three 2v2 test battles last night with the STWmod, and it's looking good. We noticed a couple of things that need adjusting, and I'll make those changes tonight. I want to release this stat as soon as possible, but I don't want to release it with known problems.

DisruptorX

11-18-2004, 17:43

I'll have to agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread. I haven't played Rome for weeks, the game is just so inherently flawed on the basic level. There is no hope for it unless they remake it from the ground up, which is unlikely. I was really looking forward to this game, and the end result has left me very dissapointed and discouraged. I had never even looked at the totalwar series before I saw early screens from RTW. I thoght it looked so impressive that I went out and bought medieval. Well, it appears that yet another company has decided to sell out to the knuckle-dragging, drooling hordes of x-box owners. Is it so hard to release a fun game, when your game is a sequel to the most impressive strategy game ever. CA ruined everything that was great about MTW. Just thinking about trying to order my units to move in Rome makes me mad. I am utterly disgusted and saddened by RTW.

Puzz3D

11-18-2004, 19:44

Creative Assembly does make comprehensive patches, so I wouldn't give up entirely on RTW yet because a lot could change from v1.1 to v1.2. At the same time, there are a lot of issues to be addressed. So, they have their work cut out for them.

TenjoArthurWellsley

11-19-2004, 10:08

I will not give up.

Admittedly I have gone back and played the odd MTW game, but on the whole have been trying to work through the maps and factions of Rome.

Although patch v1.2 will hopefully sought out some of the problems, I cannot imagine it will solve all. I assume that the expansion pack in say a years time will really make Rome work. Will it be "Visigoth Invasion".

As to politeness & honour I too always begin Rome games with a suitable salutation, and end them with an appropriate epithet. I have worked on the belief that since many players will be new to totalwar when coming to Rome, if the old hacks (me, the rest of you are veterans) induct them into our ways, then the gamers who stay will begin to follow the old ways.