naginata cav authenticity

[agios_katastrof]

So, is that thing basically a chinese kwan do cav unit, or were naginatas really ever carried on horseback? I guess naginatas aren't all that different from a kwan do.

[agios_katastrof]

oh, nevermind. i just did some quick research, and found some info on naginata as cav weapons. sorry for taking up the forum space.

[Zen Blade]

No prob.

There are a few examples I know of, but naginatas were a FEMALE SAMURAI WEAPON. I don't know if males ever used them individually, but the nagi's were predominantly female-based.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[Ii Naomasa]

agios_katastrof-san, do not let it concern you. This was the perfect section to ask such a question, so it was hardly a waste of space. Had you linked the references you found, or gave an example, it would have even been adding to richness of the history section.

Please forgive me, Zen_Blade-san, but I must disagree with your statement. We may just be arguing about semantics, however. To me, believing that naginata to be primarily a female weapon is to place samurai history within the 15th and 19th century (as many people do). It is true that the naginata had lost its place in the battlefield to spears, guns, and swords (I would wager mostly because samurai armies were becoming more rigid and tightly packed and part of the naginata's effectiveness is lost when you're limited to vertical strikes) and as time went on, it became primarily used as the perfect home defense tool for those not skilled or strong enough to use a sword effectively (as a naginata gives you the cutting power of a sword with added range).

I have held a fascination with the earlier periods for about fifteen years now. Unfortunately, English works on non-Sengoku period are few and far between and I have not had the time to master enough Japanese to be able to read any native source material. But, in what I have read, there are references to 'halberds' and naginata in use, or at least available, to warriors of the time. An account from the Battle of Uji in 1180, for example, describes two extremely skilled warrior monks, both of whom start their encounters with naginata. Although the record is somewhat fanciful, I don't believe they would have fabricated the use of the weapon. Now, these weapons may not be the same exact weapons we often refer to today as naginata (after all, whoever translates the word, especially when they change it to 'halberd', may not be familiar with the weapon itself...nagamaki, therefore, have been called halberds by people more skilled in literary than military arts). There also countless illustrations of 10th-13th century bushi carrying a bow, but with attendants who carry naginata, and more often than not, sohei are depicted with a naginata. Now, one can dispute the accuracy of some of these illustrations, as they were done centuries later when the earlier centuries were romanticized, but there's a good number done not long afterwards (the relative peace of the Kamakura period renewed artistic endeavors).

Even after you weed out the fanciful tales and legends (Benkei would take extreme offense if you were to insinuate he was a woman because of his choice of weapon http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ), the imagery done long after the events, and both artistic and literary works of a dubious nature, you're still left with the fact that a naginata-type weapon (in some cases, a nagamaki, which is all too similar to the untrained eye) was used at least by attendants of the warrior elite (and, most probably, the bushi themselves when their bow was impractical) and by at least a few sohei who did a good enough job at using it to leave a lasting impression strong enough to almost make it their trademark weapon.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 02-21-2001).]

[Hoichi]

Test

[Hoichi]

it works. good.

True, Samurai-class women trained to use the naginata and tanto (which they seem to have used quite effectively), but these were used by the men also and that is well-documented.

Naginata cav existed too, but like the no dachi, these were not deployed en masse, just a little liberty CA is taking with history. I just hope they're more effective than HC which are generally pathetic IMO. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Yoritomo

[FwSeal]

Perhaps the most famous naginata-wielder, aside from Benkei, was Tajima the 'Arrow Cutter' (or 'Arrow-Scatterer). While McCullough translates his weapon as 'great spear', most illustrations depict him using a Naginata. The passage concerning him in action during one of the Battles of Uji Bridge from the Tale of the Heike is worth repeating here:

'Tajima strode onto the bridge alone with his great spear unsheathed.
"Shoot him down, men!" said the Heike.
Crack archers aligned their arrowheads and let fly a fast and furious barrage, but Tajima calmly ducked under the high arrows, jumped over the low ones, and used his spear to fend off the ones that came straight toward him. Friend and foe alike watched in admiration. From that time on, he was known as Arrow-Scatterer Tajima.'

[ShaiHulud]

Umm, Tomoe Gozen...ring any bells? hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[FwSeal]

Interestingly, the Tale of the Heike, which details Tomoe's involvment in Kiso Yoshinaka's last battle, makes no mention of her use of a naginata (or the 'great spear' mentioned above). Instead, it records of her that 'she was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swordswoman she was a warrior worth a thousand... Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she preformed more deeds of valor then any of his other warriors'.
I suspect that later artists depicted her with a naginata simply in keeping with later conventions. After all, as II mentions above, the naginata was not an uncommon weapon in general in those days, but was often used by common soldiers (rather then samurai, Tajima notwithstanding).

[Zen Blade]

Ii,
I will be most saddened when I hear of your suicide tomorrow morning after I awake from my sleep.

As for the rest of you, I am saddened by your decisions to shave your heads and go to a monestary, but I understand.

just joking guys. : )

-Ii, by no means do I know everything, or even a whole lot. If I make a mistake, I expect and hope to be corrected. But, I have heard from several sources that the naginata was a predominantly female weapon amongst the samurai during the Sengoku Jidai.

--but, if I could point out the fact that I was referring to male and female samurai, not monks. I don't know if this is correct, but I don't consider monks to be samurai, although I guess a samurai could be a monk...

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[Ronin]

LOL!

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[agios_katastrof]

Well, the initial references to the "naginata cavalry" that I mentioned in my second post of this thread, were actually somewhat sketchy. These were from martial arts sites, which some may find not to be completely objective. I've tried looking for more authorative references on the "naginata cavalry", but unfortunately have found none. (If somebody knows of any, please enlighten). So, I can sort of conclude what was already aforementioned, that is, "naginata cavalry" was deployed, but only in small numbers, by Japan.

However, references of the Mongols using the kwan do, are easy to find. Here is one that I just happened to find in a couple of minutes: http://www.realm-of-shade.com/zarathustra/genghiskhan.html And we know that the kwan do was often used on horseback. And Mongols are quite possibly the best horsemen on planet earth.

And given the obvious similar nature of the naginata and the kwan do, I think this new "naginata cavalry" unit is simply the Mongolian kwan do cav unit.


But I could be wrong.

[Zen Blade]

Agios,

one of the only motion picture examples I can think of is in (I think Heaven and Earth, or maybe Samurai Banners)... Anyways, it's at the 4th Kawa (I think) and a small force of naginata on horse go charging out and get literally swallowed up... It was one of the funniest things I ever saw... They didn't even slow the enemy charge... : )

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[FwSeal]

That was Heaven and Earth (or, at least, Heaven and Earth had a scene like that). The really odd thing about it was that those mounted naginata warriors were women - a strange and historically unsupportable inclusion to the Takeda army. Shingen did have some women with him on campaign, but these were limited for the most part to his personal nurses and a few entertainers.

[agios_katastrof]

Ah yes, I do recall the women warriors in Heaven & Earth, although my memory can't visualize the weapons that they were carrying. I need to see the film again (great film btw, not as great as Ran, but pretty good).

Btw, my findings of the naginata have also often noted that this was a weapon popular with the women.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Here is the Community Site (http://www.totalwar.com/community/index.htm) image of the Naginata Cavalry:

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/newunits8.jpg

I originally dug this up to demonstrate that the NC have distinctly samurai-style helmets with back-of-the-neck guards (as opposed to the skull cap -esque style favored by the Mongols), but am I the only one to whom the thing in the leftmost warrior's left hand looks like a shield?

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"The warrior who does not know his business is like a cat that does not know the way of ratting."
- Tsukuhara Bokuden

[BakaGaijin]

Yes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Even after giving that image the Photoshop treatment, I don't really see anything at all in the leftmost warrior's left hand. I do see what looks like a scabbard at his waist, but that's about it.

The image of the leftmost warrior is kind of just smudged around alot, upon close inspection. The midsection, in particular, is rather blurry. Ah, well.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

There, just below his head! A square area tilted about 40 degrees to the right! Come on, my eyesight can't have deteriorated this quickly! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"The warrior who does not know his business is like a cat that does not know the way of ratting."
- Tsukuhara Bokuden

[BakaGaijin]

I see the square area, but it's just a blur. Nothing distinguishable, really.

Although, it could be that thing. You know the one. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif That thing on Japanese armour that drops down to protect the left shoulder in absence of true shields. Someone's bound to know the name of it...

[Ii Naomasa]

Zen-blade-san, you will have no argument with me over the naginata largely becoming 'domesticated' during the Sengoku period. My point, in brief (watch, I CAN DO THIS!) is that if you go further back into samurai history, beyond the Sengoku period, you'll find references to male samurai (and the bushi class in general) using naginata. See? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Your point about monks is valid, although I often count sohei as uncredited member of the bushi class more than the religious class. So many were monks in name only...

I'm assuming the naginata cavalry is an attempt to bolster the ranks of the cavalry in the Mongol campaign, as Yari cavalry and whatever the Heavy Cavalry are supposed to represent really weren't around yet (cavalry lancers were a product of a bit more organized warfare). In the context of 13th century warfare, they're a bit more reasonable.

FWSeal-san, glad to see you as adept with the Gempei war as you are with the Sengoku Jidai.

Anssi-san, the JPEG artifacts make it difficult to tell what his going on with that samurai's torso, though I would venture to agree with BakaGaijin-san that it's a combination of lighting on his armor and his sode shoulder guard. But it is not easy to tell...

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 02-27-2001).]

[FwSeal]

I find that the Gempei Period is, in many ways, as interesting as the Sengoku Period.
Unfortunatly, and as I'm sure you know, Ii, the Gempei War is poorly treated in popular histories in the West. Even Turnbull's treatment is rather token (see especially his 'Sourcebook') - and a bit out-dated. One of the most interesting things about the Gempei War is that the view of the course of 1180-1185 is being almost continually refined. Once thought of as a climatic showdown between two ancient rivals, the Gempei War is now seen as what amounted to a period of national strife that rivaled the Sengoku Period, with dozens of families fighting for local power. Even the Taira and Minamoto were divided, with scions of those houses flip-flopping to fight under their 'enemy's' flags. Often, these local feuds seem to have had only the most marginal of connections to the 'big picture' of Taira-Minamoto warfare. As Jeffrey Mass wrote, "…by inventing the compound Gempei (Genji vs. Heishi, or Minamoto vs. Taira), which might then be applied retrospectively to the fighting of 1180-85, some unknown writer or storyteller greatly simplified a more complex (and actually more significant) phenomenon."

[agios_katastrof]

It's called the "shoulder doohickey". http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Yeah, those guys in the pic do appear to be wearing those jap sam helmets, a la darth vader. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Tenchimuyo]

I hope these nag calvary troops can measure up to the expectation.

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[Contubernalis]

Just my 2 koku
I got the sense, from reading Turnbull's various books, that the transition from the Way of the Horse and Bow to the Way of the Horse and Spear probably had a small time frame when they experimented with different things before deciding that the spear was the Way to go (pardon the pun).
I also remember something on how the Naginata was NOT a suitable cavalry weapon as it is limited in its use (vertical strikes only when used mounted).

[Ii Naomasa]

Seal-san, you sum up one of the fascinating parts about the period. When you first learn of it, it's some grand epic two-sided war, but if you start to delve further, you start seeing the complications and fragmentations on both sides and eventually begin to understand why Yoritomo seemed so paranoid about everyone, especially his relatives. The manipulation and eventual elimination of his ineffectual sons is also very intriguing to me, as its a blatant example of how divided the victorious side was. As you say, though, finding detailed, sober accounts translated into English are so few and far between.

Contubernalis, others who have more detailed knowledge can corect me, but I believe you're correct in the short change-over between from mounted archery to spear and sword. In fact, the Mongol invasions seem to be one of the points in history that taught the Japanese that their somewhat chaotic, individual glory style of warfare may not be the most efficient method.

The naginata used mounted is an example of that. As said, you're limited to mostly vertical strikes while on horseback (I haven't personally seen an recreation footage of naginata used in such a way, but I have seen some mainland halbard-like polearms and spears with long, bladed sides used from horseback. A skilled warrior who was strong enough could get some sweeping maneuvers in using it single handed, but you probably wouldn't want to use a naginata one-handed if you’re in a situation with a lot of enemies around you. In my most humble opinion, horsemen with naginata would best function as skirmishing shock troops that ride down and sideswipe units in hit and run tactics. In a pitched melee, a samurai with the naginata would probably be better suited dismounting, unless the psychological effect of being on a horse was proving effective. Two benefits of a naginata are its range over a sword and the greater force of most of its attacks purely from increased speed of the blade edge when in rotation. If you limit its motion arcs, you’re removing a good portion of the reason to use it (especially against spears, which will by their nature have a slightly longer reach and can be packed much more tightly together). The age of the naginata faded as more organized, clustered warfare became prevalent. At least, from my own biased point of view.

[ShaiHulud]

Ii... My reading of that period (sparse) also indicated that the Japanese got their heads handed to them when they tried to employ the traditional pre-battle duels and mini-battles. Seems they had to re-learn warfare as the Mongols didn't play 'fair'.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Yoshitsune]

The best sources for the early samurai period are probably the war chronicles, such as the Heike Monogatari and the Taiheiki, along with the early picture scrolls such as the Mongol Invasion scroll. Naginata used on horseback aren't mentioned in the Heike Monogatari or shown in the Mongol scroll. Its first use is recorded in the 'Taiheiki Emaki' - a scroll illustrating the 14th Century 'War Between the Courts' which accompanied the chronicle of the same name.