Naval battle changes

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Hello everyone!

This thread is dedicated to the the Naval battle changes sub-group.

For those working on this group, start posting your info here, instead of the general EB MOD thread.

[sharrukin]

I was told to post naval info here. What exactly are you looking for and how would this relate to game changes as this would help to narrow down research. What CAN be done makes a big difference to what I will look for.

1. Ship types?

2.Naval tactics?

3.Speed/bases/build time/type of lumber used(vulnerability to damage and service life)/regions where resources permit quick build(imported materials always possible but would increase time and cost)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I was told to post naval info here. What exactly are you looking for and how would this relate to game changes as this would help to narrow down research. What CAN be done makes a big difference to what I will look for.

1. Ship types?

2.Naval tactics?

3.Speed/bases/build time/type of lumber used(vulnerability to damage and service life)/regions where resources permit quick build(imported materials always possible but would increase time and cost)
Sorry for not replying sooner. I was hoping that khelvan could reply better than me, because he is one of the persons working on this.

I think the most important areas should be:

-Relate the RTW ship types to historical ones and see if they have been implemented in a realistic way (not obvious I know), regarding widespread use or not, cost relating to one another, specific use, etc... This should give us an idea of the ship types and their proportion in naval armadas at the time. We'll see if we can implement something similar in the MOD.

-Not specifically naval tactics. See if the automatic naval combat system results are in any way concurrent with battle results in that era of History. Try to find a solution (idea, not technical implementation) to solve the discrepancy.

[sharrukin]

Sorry for not replying sooner. I was hoping that khelvan could reply better than me, because he is one of the persons working on this.

I think the most important areas should be:

-Relate the RTW ship types to historical ones and see if they have been implemented in a realistic way (not obvious I know), regarding widespread use or not, cost relating to one another, specific use, etc... This should give us an idea of the ship types and their proportion in naval armadas at the time. We'll see if we can implement something similar in the MOD.

-Not specifically naval tactics. See if the automatic naval combat system results are in any way concurrent with battle results in that era of History. Try to find a solution (idea, not technical implementation) to solve the discrepancy.

They are not historical but the game stats have to reflect reality, or try to get close. I have a Unit Guide with some of the ship stats put out by SoulFlame V1.1. Are there anymore stats I'm not seeing on that guide which might help, or can you tell me where to look in the files?

1. Can speed be changed from ship type to type or not?
2. Can the zone of influence be changed from type to type?
3. What kind of bonus if any can a ship get through experience/admirals/retinue/etc?
4. Can hidden, or not so hidden resources be attached to provinces?

[khelvan]

Note: I had some ideas I wanted to discuss regarding the implementation of navies in EB, but I was waiting for the passworded forum. Hopefully you will soon have access there, Sharrukin, and we can discuss them.


They are not historical but the game stats have to reflect reality, or try to get close. I have a Unit Guide with some of the ship stats put out by SoulFlame V1.1. Are there anymore stats I'm not seeing on that guide which might help, or can you tell me where to look in the files?

1. Can speed be changed from ship type to type or not?
2. Can the zone of influence be changed from type to type?
3. What kind of bonus if any can a ship get through experience/admirals/retinue/etc?
4. Can hidden, or not so hidden resources be attached to provinces?

1) I am not sure of this - it is not defined at the unit level, though there may be a way to change this at the strategic map level. I know you can change the speed of ships as a whole. Whether or not you can do so based on ship type, I am not sure. I haven't looked into it yet.

2) I do not believe so. At least, I too have asked that question more than once and have never received an answer. I hope it will be the case, but I am not counting on it.

3) Ship units receive experience just as ground units do. As far as admirals, I have seen them receive command stars through traits and retinues; I have not tried adding anything other than command stars to an admiral yet.

4) Yes.

[sharrukin]

Note: I had some ideas I wanted to discuss regarding the implementation of navies in EB, but I was waiting for the passworded forum. Hopefully you will soon have access there, Sharrukin, and we can discuss them.



1) I am not sure of this - it is not defined at the unit level, though there may be a way to change this at the strategic map level. I know you can change the speed of ships as a whole. Whether or not you can do so based on ship type, I am not sure. I haven't looked into it yet.

2) I do not believe so. At least, I too have asked that question more than once and have never received an answer. I hope it will be the case, but I am not counting on it.

3) Ship units receive experience just as ground units do. As far as admirals, I have seen them receive command stars through traits and retinues; I have not tried adding anything other than command stars to an admiral yet.

4) Yes.


I found this over at the Total War Centre. It looks like what I was talking about, but someone with great intellect will need to tell me if it is or not.

I'll go ahead and contribute my movement rate set. What this does is give spies, assassins, and diplomats all varying ranges of movement (diplomats have the most, then spies, then asassins), and then adds a whopping amount of movement to all boats. It's a completely transparent trait (because it's hidden), so it doesn't even show up as listed, and occurs 100% of the time upon agent creation (admirals are agents). If you don't like the amount of movement increase, it's easily changable in 10% increments, where each point is +10%.

to export_descr_character_traits.txt:

CODE
;------------------------------------------
Trait DiplomaticImmunity
Characters diplomat
Hidden

Level DiplomaticImmunity
Description DiplomaticImmunity_desc
EffectsDescription DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect MovementPoints 9



;------------------------------------------
Trait Sneaky
Characters spy
Hidden

Level Sneaky
Description Sneaky_desc
EffectsDescription Sneaky_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect MovementPoints 7



;------------------------------------------
Trait NeverSeen
Characters assassin
Hidden

Level DiplomaticImmunity
Description Never_Seen_desc
EffectsDescription Never_Seen_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect MovementPoints 5



;------------------------------------------
Trait OceanGoing
Characters admiral
Hidden

Level OceanGoing
Description OceanGoing_desc
EffectsDescription OceanGoing_effects_desc
Threshold 1

Effect MovementPoints 16


The triggers (I simply doubled them up for the agents, so overwrite the existing triggers here):

CODE
;------------------------------------------
Trigger spyinit1
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = spy

Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 100
Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
Affects GoodConspirator 1 Chance 20

;------------------------------------------
Trigger spyinit2
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = spy
and Trait NaturalSpySkill = 1

Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 33

;------------------------------------------
Trigger spyinit3
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = spy
and Trait NaturalSpySkill = 2

Affects Sneaky 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalSpySkill 1 Chance 20

;------------------------------------------
Trigger diplomatinit1
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = diplomat

Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger diplomatinit2
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = diplomat
and Trait NaturalDiplomatSkill = 1

Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 33

;------------------------------------------
Trigger diplomatinit3
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = diplomat
and Trait NaturalDiplomatSkill = 2

Affects DiplomaticImmunity 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalDiplomatSkill 1 Chance 33

;------------------------------------------
Trigger assassininit1
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = assassin

Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 100
Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger assassininit2
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = assassin
and Trait NaturalAssassinSkill = 1

Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 33

;------------------------------------------
Trigger assassininit3
WhenToTest AgentCreated

Condition AgentType = assassin
and Trait NaturalAssassinSkill = 2

Affects NeverSeen 1 Chance 100
Affects NaturalAssassinSkill 1 Chance 33



to export_descr_VnVs_enums.txt:

CODE
OceanGoing
OceanGoing_desc
OceanGoing_effects_desc
Sneaky
Sneaky_desc
Sneaky_effects_desc
NeverSeen
NeverSeen_desc
NeverSeen_effects_desc
DiplomaticImmunity
DiplomaticImmunity_desc
DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc


and to /text/export_vnvs.txt

CODE

{OceanGoing} Ocean Going

{OceanGoing_desc}
The seas allow the freedom to reach faraway places in a fortnight which would take several months on foot.

{OceanGoing_effects_desc}
+160% to movement on the sea

¬--------------------

{Sneaky} Sneaky

{Sneaky_desc}
This man knows how to travel lightly and silently.

{Sneaky_effects_desc}
+70% to movement

¬--------------------

{DiplomaticImmunity} Diplomatic Immunity

{DiplomaticImmunity_desc}
Guards and borders mean nothing to this man.

{DiplomaticImmunity_effects_desc}
+90% to movement

¬--------------------

{NeverSeen} Never Seen

{NeverSeen_desc}
Those who travel alone travel quickest.

{NeverSeen_effects_desc}
+50% to movement


The text files are there in case you wanted to make them standard (non-hidden) traits. I chose 160% for admirals because at my action point level (105), it just barely allows a ship to go from Carthage to Corduba in 2 turns. I thought that was a pretty good yardstick for ship travel. Anyway, I think this perhaps the best way to give individual unit types their own movement range--I know this has been a sticking point about the game for me as well as a lot of other people, so I hope this works out for everyone.

The only catch here is that you need to add these traits to existing admirals, spies, and diplomats in your descr_strat.txt folder, because the trigger is unit creation. I'm not going to bother posting my descr_strat file here because we all probably have different ones by now.

[khelvan]

It looks great, the problem is I thought you wanted to make individual units differ in movement. That is, fast ships go faster than slow ships. I see how you would do what you describe in the code above, but I don't see how it can be applied to individual unit types. You either make an admiral move his fleet faster or you don't, unless you know if a V&V can be triggered based on unit definition. I'll have to look into this when I get a chance.

[sharrukin]

This is from export_desc_unit.txt. Some changes for the naval ships. The build time is something we might want to wait to do. A lot will depend on what can be done with the game engine.
Bireme=2 turns
Trireme=3 turns
Quadrireme=4 turns
Quinquireme=4 turns
Polyreme=5 turns or more
Veneti Boats=1 turn
Nydam Boat=2 turns


type naval biremes
dictionary naval_bireme ; Bireme
category ship
class light
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 20, 0, 1
ship light warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 450, 80, 50, 70, 450
ownership roman, greek,ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


type naval triremes
dictionary naval_trireme ; Trireme
category ship
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 30, 0, 1
ship light warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 570, 120, 80, 110, 720
ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


type naval quinquiremes
dictionary naval_quinquireme ; Quinquireme =Quadrireme
category ship
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1 Carthage should get bonus for construction
soldier roman_light_infantry, 50, 0, 1
ship heavy warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 5, 4, 0, flesh =4, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 900, 210, 130, 200, 1290
ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


type naval corvus quinquireme
dictionary naval_corvus ; Corvus Quinquireme =Quinquireme
category ship
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 50, 0, 1
ship heavy warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 4, 0, flesh =5, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 1000, 210, 150, 220, 1440
ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


type naval deceres
dictionary naval_decere ; Decere =Polyreme
category ship
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 60, 0, 1
ship flagship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 16, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 8, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 3, 1200, 250, 210, 310, 2010
ownership roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian


type naval boats
dictionary naval_boats ; Boats=Veneti Boats
category ship
class light
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 15, 0, 1=25, 0, 1
ship light warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 4, 0, flesh =2, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 360, 60, 40, 60, 360
ownership barbarian


type naval large boats
dictionary naval_large_boats ; Large Boats=Nydam Ship
category ship
class heavy
voice_type Medium_1
soldier roman_light_infantry, 30, 0, 1=40, 0, 1
ship heavy warship
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 570, 120, 80, 110, 720
ownership barbarian


type naval pirate ships Renamed Hemiolia-Description should mention that in state
dictionary naval_pirates ; Pirate Ships=Hemiolia /Triemiolia
category ship
class light
voice_type Medium_1 One turn construction time
soldier roman_light_infantry, 25, 0, 1=20, 0, 1
ship light warship
attributes sea_faring Rhodes should get a cost reduction or Valour bonus?
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 510, 100, 60, 90, 570
ownership slave, roman, greek, ct_carthage, eastern, egyptian

[khelvan]

At this point I am busy enough compiling everyone's work, so I will simply add everything you change straight into the next build without looking it over, assuming that is all right with you? Just send me the exact edits and I'll put them in.

Unfortunately other projects have kept me too busy lately to be working on much other than what I've posted in the tasklist above. Shall I add naval changes to the list for you? If you email me the exact changes you want (to all relevant files) I'll make sure it is included in the next internal release.

By the way, you will notice I upped the attack factor and lowered the defense of all naval units. Would you please go over this, relate it to what you are seeing for naval battles in the game currently, and perhaps change them further in some way? I think people are still seeing naval battles that are mostly pointless.

Thanks!

[DharkEntity]

Hi, just joined and now browsing the forums. Not sure if this is the place to post:

I often find my fleets "blockaded" by neutral vessels. Is it possible to change the zone-of-control of vessels, so they only affect hostiles?

[Ranika]

I believe that's hard-coded, but not certain. Anyone know otherwise?