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Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-27-2004, 17:05
Hello everyone!

This thread is dedicated to the the Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics sub-forum.

For those working on this group, start posting your info here, instead of the general EB MOD thread.

EDIT: This thread has been renamed Unit Screenshots because all other info regarding unit implementation has been moved to the restricted thread.

SaFe
10-28-2004, 17:35
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The Germanic faction:
Some details for the modders to build up some interesting and historical units.

THE GERMANIC FACTION



Sahsnotas ("Swordbondsmen") : (Medium Infantry / Sword Warband)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, may charge without orders, Combat bonus in woods and snow, Good morale.
Appearance:
long flowing hair without plaits and preferential without the suebian knot, germanic full beard, cloak, trousers in faction colour,
round shield with symbol of a white horse or germanic runes, Spatha-Sax , a long Cutting Sword.

These adept Germanic Swordfighters were known for their abilities with the sax, the saxon sword that gave this tribe its name.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Saxones.


Chatti Fanatics : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Excellent Morale, may charge without orders, Combat Bonus in woods and snow.
Appearance:
long flowing hair, but without plaits or the celtic spiked haircut, germanic fullbeard, naked chest, trousers in faction colour, round or hexagonal long shield and a spear or axe.

The Chatti, which means "the Distinguished" was a turbulent tribe that often clashed with the romans and fought decades against the Hermunduri, a rome-friendly tribe.
It was common for their young warriors not to shave their beards or cut their hair until they killed their first opponent in a battle.
After doing this, they often inflict some ritual scars on their own skin over the body of their fallen enemy to praise their gods.

They can be raised in the province Tribus Chattii.


Germanic Framaemen : (Light Infantry)

Rome Total War Unit Abilities:
Warcry, Expert at hiding in woods, Combat Bonus in woods and snow, Combat Bonus vs. Cavalry, may charge without orders.
Appearance:
The appearance of the Germanic SpearWarband fits well. Preferable would be some kind of cloak over their bare chest.
The Framaemen are the bulk of any germanic force. Their weapon, the framae was a spear with a short sharp ending, ideal for thrusting and throwing. They can work in close or open formation and are trained to form shield walls if necessary. They can throw or thrust with their spears which are suitable for melee as well as missile combat.
They should be a mix of the Spear Warband combined with the Skirmisher Warband.They can be raised all over Germania.


More to follow...
P.S.
Aymar, i hope this is the correct forum and the skinners and modders take a look at the information.

The samnite
10-29-2004, 02:46
Ok, here's a new model for the dacian spearband. This is my first texture/model change so I hope you guys will cut me some slack.~:)

http://tinypic.com/eqa2o

Hopefully it is obvious that the two miniatures in the top left are the inspiration for the unit. (Thanks to Stormy for those pics)

I'm planning on adding the crossover strap as soon as I can figure out how to use unwrap UVW in 3DS Max ~:confused:

The stripe pattern was intended to look like wool, which is why it's a bit jaggy. I'm thinking I should just make them more straight like the model.

Any suggestions or general texturing tips are very welcome! ~:)

PSYCHO V
10-29-2004, 02:55
Ok, here's a new model for the dacian spearband. This is my first texture/model change so I hope you guys will cut me some slack.~:)

Any suggestions or general texturing tips are very welcome! ~:)

WOW! Brilliant stuff samnite! ~D I'd prob make the cap stick up / forward a little more just to be more conspicious...and maybe the beard stick out a bit more. Other than that, it's looking pretty good mate!
~:cheers:

Meneldil
10-29-2004, 07:42
Huh, this skin is just awesome ~:eek:

Dead Moroz
10-29-2004, 09:03
~:eek: Holy shit! That's a fu:lipsrsealed2:... nice! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Don't worry about stripes - they are exactly what they should be. But I think that shield should be more saturated.

Can you post bigger screens, please?

Colovion
10-29-2004, 09:48
that's awesome!

yeah bigger screens would be nice

The samnite
10-29-2004, 17:22
Okay, some bigger screens

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/6848/largespear1.th.jpg (http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18&image=largespear1.jpg) http://img18.exs.cx/img18/9364/largespear2.th.jpg (http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18&image=largespear2.jpg) http://img18.exs.cx/img18/707/largespear3.th.jpg (http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18&image=largespear3.jpg) http://img18.exs.cx/img18/7641/largespear4.th.jpg (http://img18.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img18&image=largespear4.jpg)

Thanks for the help guys. I'm working right now on your suggestions. ~:)

PSYCHO V
10-29-2004, 17:36
Can I just add my 2 bob and encourage everyone not to get too carried away with anachronistic units / suggestions. Saxon swordsman, Vandals, Franks, Goths, Hittites, Philistines, Assyrians etc etc either didn't exist in this period or were not a force worthy of note. Although there are many cool things we'd all like to see, the point of EB to add historical reality (and great gameplay), not further water it down.

Khelven, I'll have some Gaul stats for you in a week. Anyone know how I view / edit the texture square / pallette / DDS thingy in 3D max for any given CAS?

Haven't heard from Verci recently and it seems recon has dropped off the planet.

Going to be away myself for week of R&R with the wife.


See yall when I get back.

The samnite
10-29-2004, 20:36
Here's version 2 of my dacian spear unit.

http://img40.exs.cx/img40/5040/dacianspearv2.th.jpg (http://img40.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img40&image=dacianspearv2.jpg) http://img41.exs.cx/img41/2940/dacianspearv2-2.th.jpg (http://img41.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img41&image=dacianspearv2-2.jpg)

Changes include a more conspicious hat (up and out), fuller beard, changed shield colour a bit, and made the belt thinner.

Keep the suggestions coming!

One thing I haven't brought into account is the faction colours, as there currently are none on my skin. Are we planning on doing faction colours for this mod? They aren't 'historically accurate' and we still have the unit flags to distinguish units. If we reskin all the identical units to their specific factions we won't have to worry about that either. Any thoughts?

@PSYCHO V: Do you mean the texture coordinates (what part of the model gets what part of the texture file)? If so that's the unwrap UVW modifier (you have to add it, then collapse it into the mesh (not the skin) when you've finished editing. Click on the edit button in the rollout to see where the vertex's are. I haven't a clue how to change things and stitch stuff together so don't ask me. ~:)

Stormy
10-29-2004, 23:09
Wow ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:
GREAT JOB !! The samnite
I remember posting these figurines pics in the main EB thread and I was thinking to myself, I really wish to see these units dressed like the figures in game..

SAMNITE you really knocked them out Fantastic Job lad :bow:

SaFe
10-30-2004, 00:06
I agree with Psycho on his remarks with vandals, franks and goths, but not with the saxon swordsmen.
Their weapon, the sax came in many different lenghts.
While the goths, alemanni, franks, etc. appaered later, the saxons fit well.
Not 270BC, but surely in the timeframe the game covers.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-30-2004, 03:35
Ok, here's a new model for the dacian spearband. This is my first texture/model change so I hope you guys will cut me some slack.~:)

Glad to see that you have a sense of humor. Ironic none the less... :wink:

http://tinypic.com/eqa2o

It's an awesome work!!! :thumbsup:

sharrukin
10-30-2004, 22:59
http://C:\Documents and Settings\travis barton\My Documents\My Pictures\Adventurer3c1f.jpg





This should be an image. I hope!

Stormy
10-31-2004, 01:04
Haha ~D , sharrukin you will need a host from somewhere on the net to host your photos.

One of many hosts (http://www.imageshack.us/) ~;)

sharrukin
10-31-2004, 02:38
Hey Stormy glad I'm provideing some amusement for you. And thanks for the link! Once more unto the breach. Uh...wait. in case it doesn't here's the link.
http://img54.exs.cx/img54/7227/Adventurer3c1f.jpg

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/7227/Adventurer3c1f.jpg

Stormy
10-31-2004, 03:04
I see the pics now and Excellent photos. ~:cheers:

sharrukin
10-31-2004, 03:33
I see the pics now and Excellent photos. ~:cheers:

It's all thanks to you!
I uploaded some other images onto the link you provided. How would I direct someone to take a look, pick and choose if there of any use? I don't want to crowd the forum with a lot of pictures that not be useful.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-31-2004, 20:28
It's all thanks to you! I uploaded some other images onto the link you provided. How would I direct someone to take a look, pick and choose if there of any use? I don't want to crowd the forum with a lot of pictures that not be useful.
Just post the links. For that you need:

Press the "Hyperlink" button in your post, then you're asked to insert a name for the link you want to show, then for the web adress itself were the pic is located. That's all.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-01-2004, 01:55
A doubt to be clarified by the guys working on the units with 3DS MAX. I'm editing the meshes of some Iberian units and I'm unable to modify the shield shape. The soldier itself is easy, no problem. But the shield and weapon manipulation elude me. They have no defined faces, vertexes or points. How did reconspy change the shape of the Arveni Arjos's shield?

Thanks in advance...

sharrukin
11-01-2004, 16:07
One of the units that should be removed is the Onager. It doesn't seem to show up until the very end of the Roman Empire, around 400 AD. It could be replaced by the Scorpion which was essentially a Ballista that threw rocks instead of Javelins. Some of the Greek siege engines based on the Ballista got pretty big so it shouldn't cause any game inbalance.

"Onager; The torsion spring of the onager is arranged horizontally. The weapon imitates the staff sling, a particular type of hand sling for throwing small stones. The one-armed stone-thrower comes quite late in Antiquity. The first one to describe the onager was Ammianus Marcellinus in mid-forth century AD (Ammianus XXIII 4.4-7). In the Republican period and in the early Imperial period the Roman army was not equipped with such a type of catapult"

http://home.t-online.de/home/d.baatz/catapult.htm

sharrukin
11-01-2004, 16:12
http://img86.exs.cx/img86/8750/scorpiolegioviii.jpg





http://img86.exs.cx/img86/1204/gastrophetespicSML.jpg





http://img86.exs.cx/img86/5237/Aitor.jpg


Links to some siege equipment.

Dead Moroz
11-01-2004, 16:33
Great work, The samnite !

But think you should make lines on shield smoother - they looks too unrealistic now.
And draw attention on this little glitch (maybe you already fixed it?):
http://img99.exs.cx/img99/318/dacbug.jpg

sharrukin
11-01-2004, 23:11
Would it be possible to enlarge a Ballista and remove any trace of a spear on it? This would work well as a replacement for the Onager.

Also could the arc of the boulder be made more linear like the Ballista's spear?

The samnite
11-01-2004, 23:42
My second unit now, a dacian archer.

http://img5.exs.cx/img5/8830/dacianarcher1.th.jpg (http://img5.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5&image=dacianarcher1.jpg) http://img5.exs.cx/img5/3213/dacianarcher2.th.jpg (http://img5.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5&image=dacianarcher2.jpg) http://img5.exs.cx/img5/1638/dacianarcher3.th.jpg (http://img5.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5&image=dacianarcher3.jpg) http://img5.exs.cx/img5/1927/dacianarcher4.th.jpg (http://img5.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5&image=dacianarcher4.jpg)
Based off of another of Stormy's pics:
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/1065/archer5.th.jpg (http://img32.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img32&image=archer5.jpg)

I basically just tweaked here and there from the spearman model as the miniatures were fairly similar. I added the belt and strap, but the texture for it is hard to do and needs some more work. I've encountered difficulties in lining up the different level models so the units farther away might seem a bit different than the close up ones.

As always, suggest ways to make it better!

@Aymar de Bois Mauri: You've discovered one of the best ways to save on polygons! Anything round takes a lot of polys to make look good, so when something is flat (like a shield, weapons) you can make it round (or whatever) using transparency settings. Check the alpha channel in the texture you are working on. The black areas are rendered transparent by the game engine and therefore the shape of the object can be changed. It has nothing to do with 3DS Max. This is also how they get feathers/arrows to appear without using a ton of polys.

@Dead Moroz: Thanks for catching that glitch. I made the beard a bit weird so I'll go over that again. As for the shield, do you mean the outside line or the inside?

Stormy
11-02-2004, 00:12
Wow! once again @ The samnite :bow:

Fantastic work my friend.

You and many others here are making this game more authentic by the minute. This mod will be what I always been waiting for in a RTS game. Thank you. ~:cheers:

The samnite
11-02-2004, 00:26
Thanks Stormy!

Those miniature pics you found were great. Since they were already in 3D I basically just had to match up colours and patterns. ~:)

Dead Moroz
11-02-2004, 13:02
Nice work again, The samnite! ~:thumb: I like their faces!

But think you should make lines on dress more wavering as they are on spearmen.
And make something with these fragments:
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/4467/dacbug3.jpg


@Dead Moroz: Thanks for catching that glitch. I made the beard a bit weird so I'll go over that again. As for the shield, do you mean the outside line or the inside?
I mean these:
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/118/dacbug2.jpg

The samnite
11-02-2004, 16:10
Ah yes, those lines do look bad. It's hard to get angles to look good, but I'll work on those things you noted today.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-02-2004, 22:14
My second unit now, a dacian archer.

I basically just tweaked here and there from the spearman model as the miniatures were fairly similar. I added the belt and strap, but the texture for it is hard to do and needs some more work. I've encountered difficulties in lining up the different level models so the units farther away might seem a bit different than the close up ones.

As always, suggest ways to make it better!
Once again, excellent job!!! :thumbsup:

My only complain is that they look a bit stare-eyed. Maybe closing the eyes a bit would get rid of that impression?


@Aymar de Bois Mauri: You've discovered one of the best ways to save on polygons! Anything round takes a lot of polys to make look good,
Yes, I know. That is why organic modelling is so intensive CPU/GPU wise. Takes a lot of polygons to improve shape. Although the trick is to make the mesh the most efficient possible.


so when something is flat (like a shield, weapons) you can make it round (or whatever) using transparency settings. Check the alpha channel in the texture you are working on. The black areas are rendered transparent by the game engine and therefore the shape of the object can be changed. It has nothing to do with 3DS Max. This is also how they get feathers/arrows to appear without using a ton of polys.
OK. I didn't knew that reconspy had worked with the transparency allowed by the Alpha channel. But my problem is far different. I was remodeling the Naked Fanatics mesh to make them more like Stepped Merc's pic of the Gaesatae. Problem is: it's shield is wider in certain parts than the one of the Naked Fanatics. Therefore, the texture isn't wide enough to use the Alpha channel trick because the polygonal mesh isn't either. How do I get around that?

The samnite
11-02-2004, 22:42
@Dead Moroz: I fixed the glitch and the jagged line on the spearman, won't bother posting cause it's minor. The line on the archer is more of a problem because the arm and body are not actually connected in 3DS max. It seems to be a shadow caused by the engine. I can mess with colours a bit but it probably will never look great. CA's textures usually have a break of some type (sleeves, muscle lines) so it's harder to notice.

@Aymar de Bois Mauri: Ya, I copied the eye from another model and I forgot to blend it. It shall be fixed!

I'm not sure what your problem is now. The shield has vertexes on mine. Does your's look like this?
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/5967/gaesatae.th.jpg (http://img48.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img48&image=gaesatae.jpg)

If it does, then add the UVW unwrap modifier and click edit to see where the texture coordinates are lining up.

If that doesn't help I don't know what's wrong :embarassed:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-02-2004, 23:11
I mean these:
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/118/dacbug2.jpg
I don't think he can. IMHO, those lines aren't related to the texture. They depend on screen resolution and the angle of the image. Try to see that image in-game at 1600x1200 or with Anti-Aliasing turned on (4x). The jaggies will disappear.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 00:23
"I don't think he can. IMHO, those lines aren't related to the texture. They depend on screen resolution and the angle of the image. Try to see that image in-game at 1600x1200 or with Anti-Aliasing turned on (4x). The jaggies will disappear."

That is correct. I play 1600x1200 with AA at 4 and AF at 4 as well and it clears up the jaggies.

Best way to play ~:cheers: to enjoy such a wonderful game ~D

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-03-2004, 01:41
I'm not sure what your problem is now. The shield has vertexes on mine. Does your's look like this?
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/5967/gaesatae.th.jpg (http://img48.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img48&image=gaesatae.jpg)

If it does, then add the UVW unwrap modifier and click edit to see where the texture coordinates are lining up.
Yes, now it does. I wasn't importing it correctly with Vercingetorix's plug-in. My mistake. :embarassed:


If that doesn't help I don't know what's wrong :embarassed:
This is what I'm trying to achieve:

Old Shield:
http://img40.exs.cx/img40/2748/ForumEBMODGaesataeOld.jpg

New Shield:
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/1537/ForumEBMODGaesataeNew.jpg

Now that I've solved the problem I'm going to edit it. Thanks a lot, The samnite!!! :2thumbsup:

The samnite
11-03-2004, 16:38
@Aymar de Bois Mauri: No problem! Although I'm not quite sure if I said anything useful..... :dizzy2:

Here's an updated version of the archer with less stary eyes and more fuzzy lines.
http://img42.exs.cx/img42/6769/dacianarcherv21.th.jpg (http://img42.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img42&image=dacianarcherv21.jpg) Couple things are still bugging me: the belt/strap and the shoulder textures are messed up. The weird part is that they look fine in 3DS MAX; not sure what to do about it.

Thanks for everyone's help so far! This really is the first time I've done modeling/texturing so there's lots of stuff I don't know.~:)

Next I'll be tweaking the falxman. Strangely enough it is one of CA's more accurate 'barbarian' units. Nevertheless, some work can be done.

Stormy
11-03-2004, 21:22
The Archers look good to me Samnite ~:cheers:
Much better facial detail I must say. Maybe it is me but I don't see a problem with the strap. GJ again Samnite!

The samnite
11-04-2004, 04:32
@Stormy: I guess they don't look terrible, but they look different (and better) in Max. I won't lose sleep over it though. ~;)

I need your guys' help on the falx unit. Here's a preliminary screen:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/1076/dacianfalxprelim.th.jpg (http://img104.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img104&image=dacianfalxprelim.jpg)

Check out these pages for some reference:
http://www.hat.com/Othr5/Willers18.html
http://www.hat.com/Othr6/Kris18.html

Couple of questions: Is the cap I've got good enough or should I make an entirely new one? Second: should I keep the striped pants or make new ones? I doubt I could make anything as good as the ones already there and it's not really inaccurate in the first place.

Keep in mind that colours can be easily changed.

Thanks in advance!

Urnamma
11-04-2004, 04:42
Samnite, I say keep the ones there already.
Your work kicks ass, btw.

Stormy
11-04-2004, 05:37
:bow: I like your Falx unit Samnite and good job once again

Hmm maybe you can add a new pant to the falx I think a new pant will be good also If you feel it is needed but your falx looks great. ~:cheers:

http://www.hat.com/Othr5/willers18l.jpg

Dead Moroz
11-04-2004, 09:50
The samnite, please make new cap. The current one is too small and round (looks more like Jewish kipa).
About pants I think - get rid of stripes and make it all brown.
And how about to add them more muscles?

Maybe it's just me but it looks like something strange happened with their arms.

The samnite
11-04-2004, 15:58
Okay, new cap and pants it is.

Stormy: You should thank CA, I never touched the falx ~:)

Dead Moroz: You should talk to CA, I never touched the arms ~:)

Seriously, the arms on most of the models look a bit weird in certain positions. Has to do with the skeleton I guess. I will try to bulk them up a bit though.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-04-2004, 16:01
Here's an updated version of the archer with less stary eyes and more fuzzy lines.
I think I know what is still amiss in the eyes: they are too big for the face. Have you tried to resize that part of the texture? It might look better.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-04-2004, 16:15
@Stormy: I guess they don't look terrible, but they look different (and better) in Max. I won't lose sleep over it though. ~;)

I need your guys' help on the falx unit. Here's a preliminary screen:
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/1076/dacianfalxprelim.th.jpg (http://img104.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img104&image=dacianfalxprelim.jpg)

Thanks in advance!
Once again in to the fray. Excellent!!! Each time the Dacians look more and more like a unique faction!!! :thumbsup:

Steppe Merc
11-05-2004, 00:46
Has anyone tried out trying to fix any of the cavalry units? I know your focusing on the Gallic/Germanic/Dacian units now (or so it seems), so I won't expect a Scythian unit for a bit. But have you at least given any shirts to the horsemen, or try out giving them different hair? Because the pig tails won't be good at all for the Scyths, or any other faction that I can think of for that matter.

PSYCHO V
11-06-2004, 13:48
For anyone who knows how to include units, their info.TGAs and #.TGAs into the game:

Need some testing done on the Northern Warband.

Volunteers send me your email address by pm or mail to callmepsycho@hotmail.com

Cheers

The samnite
11-06-2004, 18:35
First revision of falxman:
http://img111.exs.cx/img111/3366/dacianfalx1.th.jpg (http://img111.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img111&image=dacianfalx1.jpg) http://img111.exs.cx/img111/5329/dacianfalx2.th.jpg (http://img111.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img111&image=dacianfalx2.jpg) http://img111.exs.cx/img111/576/dacianfalx3.th.jpg (http://img111.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img111&image=dacianfalx3.jpg)

The hat took a lot of polys to make and I'm still not happy with it. I might just make a simple cap instead for now and work on a good one later on.

@Aymar de Bois Mauri
Did a little revision on the archer's eyes, though they might be too dark now:
http://img125.exs.cx/img125/7740/dacianarcher5.jpg

Again, comments are appreciated. ~:)

Stormy
11-06-2004, 18:56
~:eek: Wow man, Much better and these are for sure a 10/10. The eyes of the archer units looks much better and I must say it is complete :bow: . The Falxman head wear and pant looks way better. I didn't like the satin pant look in the original Falxman but this one is just hardcore. ~D

Fantastic job Samnite

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-06-2004, 20:07
First revision of falxman:

The hat took a lot of polys to make and I'm still not happy with it. I might just make a simple cap instead for now and work on a good one later on.
For increased detail, I think you should try exploring more the texture than the 3d mesh. It's notoriously less demanding in terms of PC performance.


Did a little revision on the archer's eyes, though they might be too dark now:

Again, comments are appreciated. ~:)
IMHO, they aren't too dark. I think it's perfect now. No further comments. :thumbsup:

PSYCHO V
11-07-2004, 07:54
BRILLIANT STUFF SAMNITE! ~:cheers:

Dead Moroz
11-07-2004, 22:51
The samnite, please, don't stop working on falxmen. Their caps shouldn't be round. Please, make it proper (of course, if it's possible).

And definitely something's wrong with arms.

PROMETHEUS
11-08-2004, 01:15
hey guys did or will you add the agrippa's skins of the legionairies ?? they look perfect and would be a waste of time not using them , also the naked barbarian and the true spartans .....

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-08-2004, 05:08
hey guys did or will you add the agrippa's skins of the legionairies ?? they look perfect and would be a waste of time not using them , also the naked barbarian and the true spartans .....
Agrippa's legionaires are very good, but we'll have to ask him first.

As for "true" Spartans, this is an Historical MOD. The ones in the game are almost correct historically. Only a few minor tweeks are in order.

Naked barbarian? What do you mean? Gaesatae? Or TWC's penis variety?

The samnite
11-08-2004, 18:46
@Dead Moroz
Do you want it to be more pointy on top? There's a few pics around that show a rounder cap so that's what I based it on. If there's a pic or description that you like better I can try to base it off that.

PS. Clean out your PM's.

Dead Moroz
11-09-2004, 11:27
@Dead Moroz
Do you want it to be more pointy on top? There's a few pics around that show a rounder cap so that's what I based it on. If there's a pic or description that you like better I can try to base it off that.
Look - it's top must slouch forward or sideways.
http://www.ruslan-com.ru/zotov/eb/duckians.jpg


PS. Clean out your PM's.
Done. ~:)

eadingas
11-09-2004, 11:32
Smurf caps, basically :)

DeadRunner
11-09-2004, 13:05
Nice job samnite ~:cheers:

Ill you going to put the fanatic naked(if i remenber some celts fight total naked and not with "tang" in front ,(but i prefer naked girls :embarassed:)

Ranika
11-09-2004, 13:14
By this point only the Gaesatae fight naked in any large number (for the Celtic factions we have, anyway, the Gallatians employed a similar type of warrior, from the more fanatical of the peasant levies, and were, as such, significantly of poorer quality than the Gallic Gaesatae, who were semi-professional due to constant warring).

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-09-2004, 19:20
Well guys, I really hadn't much time to remodel and reskin any unit, but this is my first afternoon's work. Just a testing experience. Still a lot to rework, although from the latest discussions about Iberian units, it probably won't see daylight in this form:

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/7746/ForumEBMODIberianLightInfantryFront.th.jpg (http://img25.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img25&image=ForumEBMODIberianLightInfantryFront.jpg)

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/7919/ForumEBMODIberianLightInfantryBack.th.jpg (http://img25.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img25&image=ForumEBMODIberianLightInfantryBack.jpg)

I used this as graphical reference:

Iberian Light Infantry (nº3):

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/1043/IberianHorseman-Celt-IberianHeavyInfantryman-IberianSwordsman.jpg

Urnamma
11-09-2004, 19:35
It's a good start! Is there any way we can get the falcata? I love that sword...

Stefan the Berserker
11-09-2004, 19:53
I collected matirial to change the appearance of the germanic Spear Warband, sadly I have strong Moirè in the pics... They wore Leather Shoes, wool throwsers, wool shirt, a Weaponsbelt, red-or-blue Cloak, round shield, "Praelongas Hastas" - Long Spears and a Spathia.

http://members.fortunecity.de/stefanholz/Spearman.jpg

The Suebi-Knot was a common Hairstyle, they should remain their old head...

http://members.fortunecity.de/stefanholz/Knoten.jpg

Shields were painted with fashion, I found a very nice motive which would fit very well... Something like that would be cool.

http://www.zum-germanen.de/temp/indexpic.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-09-2004, 20:08
It's a good start! Is there any way we can get the falcata? I love that sword...
LOL :grin:

The Iberian units that use a sword, already have the Falcata in RTW's release version. It's just not that visible though. But if you zoom closely, you'll see that the sword isn't straight. It has the typical Falcata curve, although with too few polygons to make it clearly visible. But we can't increase them too much, because we would get too much lag on less potent machines (mine included... :wink: ).

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-09-2004, 20:28
I collected matirial to change the appearance of the germanic Spear Warband, sadly I have strong Moirè in the pics... They wore Leather Shoes, wool throwsers, wool shirt, a Weaponsbelt, red-or-blue Cloak, round shield, "Praelongas Hastas" - Long Spears and a Spathia.

The Suebi-Knot was a common Hairstyle, they should remain their old head...

Shields were painted with fashion, I found a very nice motive which would fit very well... Something like that would be cool.
Hey, Stefan!!! Why can't I see your Fortune City's hosted pics? :confused:

Stefan the Berserker
11-09-2004, 23:01
Hey, Stefan!!! Why can't I see your Fortune City's hosted pics?

I have absolutely no idea why it could be... ~:confused:

Maybe with url?

http://members.fortunecity.de/stefanholz/Spearman.jpg

The samnite
11-09-2004, 23:10
@Stephan: Nope, just getting the fortune city pic.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-10-2004, 00:54
I have absolutely no idea why it could be... ~:confused:

Maybe with url?
Nope. I still can't see them. Sorry, but it was the same with those pics of the wedge formation for German infantry that you posted a couple of days ago... :sad:

Maybe if you use another webhoster like this one:

Image Shack (http://www.imageshack.us/)

This one works for me...

PSYCHO V
11-10-2004, 19:24
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/AverniArgos.jpg

Verci and I have been playing with recon's Arverni Argos. Thoughts?

DeadRunner
11-10-2004, 19:26
nice

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-10-2004, 19:46
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/AverniArgos.jpg

Verci and I have been playing with recon's Arverni Argos. Thoughts?
Only one:

I want to test them all!!!! :grin:

Stefan the Berserker
11-10-2004, 20:40
Spearmen:

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/8416/Spearman.th.jpg (http://img56.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img56&image=Spearman.jpg)

Suebi-Knot:

http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4647/Knoten.th.jpg (http://img103.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img103&image=Knoten.jpg)

Nice-Shield:

http://www.zum-germanen.de/temp/indexpic.jpg

~:eek: ~:eek: ~D

Stormy
11-10-2004, 20:44
~:eek: Amazing work PSYCHO V. Fantastic job also with the cloak and shield. ~:eek:

PSYCHO V
11-11-2004, 01:04
Not my work Stormy. Reconspy did all the hard work.

Vercingetrix improved the models a little and added some cool features / abilities. I just touched up some of the textures. Hope recon doesn't mind.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-11-2004, 01:16
Spearmen:

Suebi-Knot:

Nice-Shield:

~:eek: ~:eek: ~D
Now I see them. Thanks!!! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-11-2004, 01:18
Reconspy did all the hard work.
BTW, have you been able to contact him lately?

PSYCHO V
11-12-2004, 19:32
Southern Warband under construction

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SouthernWarband.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-12-2004, 19:42
Southern Warband under construction
Great skinning, PSYCHO!! But what about the shields? They look somewhat bended in the middle? :confused:

PSYCHO V
11-12-2004, 19:48
~D We know...the're still not finished



Verci is putting in quite a few hours. We're Re-doing Officers this weekend.

~:cheers:
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/arverni_arjos_INFO.jpg

Ranika
11-12-2004, 19:50
GREAT Southern Warband. I was worried they'd not have their cloaks for some reason.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-12-2004, 21:15
Verci is putting in quite a few hours. We're Re-doing Officers this weekend.
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/arverni_arjos_INFO.jpg
Officers? Good! Keep it up.

*starting to get frustrated for not presenting his own unit work* :embarassed:

BTW, I've seen that you're working on the description pics! I wanted to ask everybody working on the units not to forget that. Great pic!!!

PROMETHEUS
11-12-2004, 21:55
Ok now I will start a plenty of informative plates ...many by osprey military publishing , then feel free to discuss them



http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Cam_Luc_Sam2.jpg

Lucanian infantryman , Samnite heavy cavalry Campanian heavy infantry....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Rom_and_Gaul2.jpg

early roman hoplits

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/triarii2.jpg

roman hastati triarii and velites....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Samnites2.jpg

other samnite warriors of the types ....the Carecini, Pentri, Caudini and Hirpini,

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Etruscan2.jpg

etruscan hoplit

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Romulus_Remus2.jpg

Romolus and Remus

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltInf1_ConcAncArmies.jpg

celtic warriors....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Germans_ConcImpRomeAtWar.jpg

germans and romans of early legions ....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltNob_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

this plate was for a noble Celtic leader and should not be used for making a full unit ....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltInf2_WarriorCletWar.jpg

other celtic warriors....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltCav2_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

another noble celt....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Celtfan_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

celtic fanatics...

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Auxilia1_ConcImpRomeAtWar.jpg

imperial legionaire and auxiliary troops....

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Auxcav1_HadriansWall.jpg

auxiliary cavalry time of Hadrian's wall

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Auxilia2_ConcImpRomeAtWar.jpg

auxiliares and legionaries early time ....

PROMETHEUS
11-12-2004, 22:17
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/AverniArgos.jpg


this unit is absolutely stunning but unfortunately out of historical precision if not used for a band of nobles.....

eadingas
11-12-2004, 22:30
Hmm we really need to make one of the Roman factions a 'Italian Allies' faction. There's too much good info for units, we can't just make them all into mercs...

PROMETHEUS
11-12-2004, 22:32
http://wargames.spyz.org/napnuts/albums/album12/samnite.jpg

Samnite heavy infantryman....

http://wargames.spyz.org/napnuts/albums/album12/roman01.jpg

polibyan roman Army....

http://wargames.spyz.org/napnuts/albums/album12/samnite3.jpg

Other Samnite units.....

http://wargames.spyz.org/napnuts/albums/album12/spanish01.jpg

some spanish cavalry...


http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8006/jpg3.jpg


this is my very first attempt to skin a new unit, it is tyhe samnite mercenary unit , of course it is just a try to see if it worked , I plan to make it more realistic looking with shields and all , the only thing I need to know is , do I need to respect the original colours or use the green colour of the mercenaries?

eadingas
11-13-2004, 01:03
BTW spanish cavalry, I don't suppose there's any way to have the jinetes use their trademark formation of 'javelin waves' (I don't know the proper name)?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-13-2004, 01:24
Please PROMETEUS, all this info is a bit too much for just a page. Try thumbnailing the pics. So many are too heavy and load times for people viewing the page might be affected.

BTW, there are a LOT of these kind of pics in our Historical thread at the Colosseum. Most historical info should be put there.

DeadRunner
11-13-2004, 01:25
Very nice Prometheus

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-13-2004, 01:38
http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/triarii2.jpg

roman hastati triarii and velites....
Sorry. Princeps, not Hastati. Note the mail armour...


http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Romulus_Remus2.jpg

Romolus and Remus
What is this for? Are we dealing with mythology now?


http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/CeltNob_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

this plate was for a noble Celtic leader and should not be used for making a full unit ....
Sorry. IIRC, the Arveni Arjos were a band of noblemen. The personal guard of the Arveni king. PSYCHO V was right in depicting them as they are here.


http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Celtfan_WarriorCeltWar.jpg

celtic fanatics...
AKA Gaesatae.

Most of this info has already been posted in out Historical thread at the Colosseum. Please refer to that before posting redundant information.

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 01:42
Based on those unit I elabored this one so what you think of it???


http://img15.exs.cx/img15/7839/Samnites2.jpg



http://img15.exs.cx/img15/5242/jpg9.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-13-2004, 02:08
BTW spanish cavalry, I don't suppose there's any way to have the jinetes use their trademark formation of 'javelin waves' (I don't know the proper name)?
When will people understand that "Spanish" is a WRONG term for the Iberian populations of this age? I've been saying this for months now!!!

Spain does NOT exist until the marriage of the Catholic Kings Fernado II of Aragon and Isabel I of Castile-Léon in the late 15th century!!!

And they were only called Hispannicus by Rome. Not "Spanish" and only post-conquest!!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-13-2004, 02:10
http://img91.exs.cx/img91/8006/jpg3.jpg

this is my very first attempt to skin a new unit, it is tyhe samnite mercenary unit , of course it is just a try to see if it worked , I plan to make it more realistic looking with shields and all , the only thing I need to know is , do I need to respect the original colours or use the green colour of the mercenaries?
Very good skinning work!!! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-13-2004, 02:22
Based on those unit I elabored this one so what you think of it???

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/7839/Samnites2.jpg


http://img15.exs.cx/img15/5242/jpg9.jpg
You've compounded their looks together? The breastplate seems a little complex...

But a great skinning job nonetheless.

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 03:11
Actually if you notice well the breastplate in the figure is right the one I used for the skinning , I found in internet making a research and I have been lucky to find it..... ~D




http://img91.exs.cx/img91/7351/jpg4.jpg

khelvan
11-13-2004, 04:19
Is there any way to have the leg greave be only on the leading leg?

Great looking skins!

PSYCHO V
11-13-2004, 05:29
Actually if you notice well the breastplate in the figure is right the one I used for the skinning , I found in internet making a research and I have been lucky to find it..... ~D

Your a Legend! Very very nice Prom! Verci and I were discussing the colour thing. I think historical accuracy should take precedence. I guess this is a 'historical mod'. Where there is an opportunity to add factional colours without sacrificing accuracy, yer take it but it aint a biggy.

Re: the Arverni. The name tends to give it away. The unit is called Arverni Argos. Argos meaning 'Noble' in Gallic. The Arverni were noted (well, until the last stages of the 'civil war' / 1st CBC) for their wealth and well equipped troops. In terms of equipment and weapons, there quite accurate imho. Though I would like those spears to be a few feet shorter but Verci tells me this is hard coded in the .exe

In the mod, they will be a very expensive unit to raise and keep. Ultimately I'd like to make them event triggered, like post Marian units. Does anyone know if we can add this unit to the same Roman trigger event?



If anyone needs help doing UI placecards for their units, give me a hoy.

khelvan
11-13-2004, 05:38
In the mod, they will be a very expensive unit to raise and keep. Ultimately I'd like to make them event triggered, like post Marian units. Does anyone know if we can add this unit to the same Roman trigger event?

Add one line to the building it can be recruited from, and done. You can do this for any event (anyone know of any more we can utilize?).

Ranika
11-13-2004, 05:42
Is it possible to add more events, or are they hardcoded?

Stormy
11-13-2004, 06:02
Great stuff PSYCHO V & PROMETHEUS :thumbsup: It's all coming along nicely I see.

khelvan
11-13-2004, 06:41
I believe that events (and their triggers) are hardcoded.

Urnamma
11-13-2004, 06:41
Wow, these units are beautiful. The Arveni and the Samnites are works of art, truly.

Vercingetorix
11-13-2004, 09:37
Psycho and I pumping away like a machine. Currently we're a bit stuck with the Averni Arjos spear, I was playing around with it and was able to have them hold speras and charge with sword but it crashes sometimes...

Anyway fixed southern warband shield and boar standard work in progress:

http://img45.exs.cx/img45/6357/standard_gaul_WIP.th.jpg (http://img45.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img45&image=standard_gaul_WIP.jpg)

Keep up the good work men ~:cheers:

eadingas
11-13-2004, 09:47
When will people understand that "Spanish" is a WRONG term for the Iberian populations of this age? I've been saying this for months now!!!

Spain does NOT exist until the marriage of the Catholic Kings Fernado II of Aragon and Isabel I of Castile-Léon in the late 15th century!!!

And they were only called Hispannicus by Rome. Not "Spanish" and only post-conquest!!!

Not that it answered my question ~:rolleyes: I suppose we can't call Greece 'Greece', either, only 'Hellas'...

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 10:39
I would like those spears to be a few feet shorter but Verci tells me this is hard coded in the .exe


Have you tried this???






2.HOW TO - add short pikes/long pikes to spearmen... By Adonys
or any spearmen unit in the export_descr_unit.txt file you can replace its stat_pri_attr line values with spear, short_pike or spear, long_pike

example:

BEFORE:
type greek hoplite
dictionary greek_hoplite ; Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_hoplite, 40, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.5
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.5
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 5, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 440, 170, 50, 70, 440
ownership greek_cities, slave


AFTER - short pike:
type greek hoplite
dictionary greek_hoplite ; Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_hoplite, 40, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.5
stat_pri_attr spear, short_pike
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.5
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 5, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 440, 170, 50, 70, 440
ownership greek_cities, slave


AFTER - long pike:
type greek hoplite
dictionary greek_hoplite ; Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Medium_1
soldier greek_hoplite, 40, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 7, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.5
stat_pri_attr spear, long_pike
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.5
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 5, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 4, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 440, 170, 50, 70, 440
ownership greek_cities, slave

Vercingetorix
11-13-2004, 10:46
Thanks PROMETHEUS, the problem is that we want them to use the custom spear that's in the model not the generic spears/pikes. For all troops that use the phalanx formation it forces the use of these generic spears. Now if there was some way for them to use custom spears but charge with swords without using the phalanx formation is would be great but I'm not aware of any formation as such.

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 13:41
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/9180/jpg6.jpg

Ok this is the last update , I removed the leather thing to leave the under dress be visible and I added stripes that keep the breastplate on the shoulders, I still have to increase the colour of some red decorations of the dress and complete the skirt part , I was also thinking to substituite the shield with a round one but not sure about it since they used also this kind of shields.....

eadingas
11-13-2004, 13:58
I believe that events (and their triggers) are hardcoded.
You can change the date at which they happen... and, I think, a description (otherwise they couldn't be localized). So we could replace some of the events with others, if we learn how the building triggers are called for each event... if there are other triggers except marian_reforms, that is. I haven't found any yet. (shouldn't some of the inventions, like Archimedes Pump, be such a trigger ?)

Ranika
11-13-2004, 14:50
Numerous triggers appear to be aesthetic, and not actually affect anything, such as the pump. Is this true? Do they actually do anything? If so, changing them to certain other events sounds like it should be simple enough, events that would enable other, non-Roman units.

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 15:38
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/7351/jpg4.jpg


new version updated with some refinements of neck and dress .... in action , but still I have the problem of one unit with black stuff....

khelvan
11-13-2004, 17:29
You can change the date at which they happen... and, I think, a description (otherwise they couldn't be localized). So we could replace some of the events with others, if we learn how the building triggers are called for each event... if there are other triggers except marian_reforms, that is. I haven't found any yet. (shouldn't some of the inventions, like Archimedes Pump, be such a trigger ?)

But you cannot change the date at which they happen. At least, not if all events happen like the Marian reform event. The description, yes, but not the event triggers. (i.e. date, building a certain building, so on)

Stormy
11-13-2004, 20:30
Nice update PROMETHEUS ~:cheers:

Good god, I'm gonna love this mod when it is all set and done. Every single one of you is doing a outstanding job . Glory to you all :bow:

eadingas
11-13-2004, 22:51
But you cannot change the date at which they happen. At least, not if all events happen like the Marian reform event. The description, yes, but not the event triggers. (i.e. date, building a certain building, so on)

Umm...
from 'descr_events.txt':

"event eruption_at_etna
date 9 winter
position 104, 49

event plague_in_macedonia
date 14 winter
position 138, 67

event stoic_philosophy
date 14 summer

event hand_pump_invented
date 14 winter

; event librarian_at_alexandria
; date 18 summer

; event great_library_completed
; date 24 winter

event carthage_clear_glass
date 34 summer

event archimedes_screw
date 44 winter

event greek_logic
date 54 summer

event star_catalogue
date 64 winter

event plague_in_alexandria
date 64 summer
position 178, 19

; event rites_of_bacchus_banned
; date 78 winter

event earthquake_in_pontus
date 84 summer

event concrete_invented
date 94 winter

event eruption_at_vesuvius
date 99 summer
position 103, 65

event philosophy_banned
date 103 winter

event astrolabe_invented
date 114 summer

event lex_aebutia
date 114 winter

event roman_stoicism
date 120 summer..." etc.

eadingas
11-13-2004, 22:56
The events even have a syntax like they could be used as triggers. We need to test if adding, for example, 'and astrolabe_invented' to a building descr does something to it.

DemonArchangel
11-13-2004, 23:15
AAARGGH! NAZIS! I'M OFFENDED! (not really, but some ignorant fools could misconstrue the swastika to mean something else)

eadingas
11-13-2004, 23:37
Weird. I can't find the descriptions to the events anywhere. And they show up as english in my localised version. Surely they can't be hard-coded!? It would be absurd to not be able to write your own descriptions?

PROMETHEUS
11-13-2004, 23:45
Here is something I found on the Samnites more Historical sure I guess, should I substituite this colours on the shield or leave it for the rebel samnite instead? I think to have two kind of samnites units is good like actually are but too similar between them....
I was thinking of substituiting the swastica symbol with this kind of shie4ld what you guys think?

http://flagspot.net/misc/it-samn.jpg

http://flagspot.net/images/i/it_samni.jpg

sharrukin
11-13-2004, 23:45
AAARGGH! NAZIS! I'M OFFENDED! (not really, but some ignorant fools could misconstrue the swastika to mean something else)

I agree! If we include this unit we should make a point of explaining in the ingame description what it really is.

eadingas
11-13-2004, 23:58
Nevermind, I found them. (I wish I could edit my posts finally!) Okay, we can edit and add any events we like - there are even some that are commented out of current release, wonder why.
Still don't know how to use them as triggers, if it's possible. But it may be a matter of syntax. For example the 'marian_reforms' don't exist as marian_reforms anywhere outside descr_buildings, they have different name in the description files.

PROMETHEUS
11-14-2004, 01:12
http://img91.exs.cx/img91/4460/jpg5.jpg

those are another version I tought instead for the rebels and slave armies.....still in work..... how it looks?

PSYCHO V
11-14-2004, 02:04
Great Prom. I was going to suggest this uniform instead of the reverse swastika design. It would have just been an unnecessary bone of contention with some. So stick with these guys, they look great.

khelvan
11-14-2004, 02:18
Feel free to try and change the event triggers. As I said, "IF" they function like the Marian Reforms, you cannot. That is a big "if." (In more ways than one :)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-14-2004, 06:12
Actually if you notice well the breastplate in the figure is right the one I used for the skinning , I found in internet making a research and I have been lucky to find it..... ~D
OK. Great. I like it. :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-14-2004, 06:18
Is there any way to have the leg greave be only on the leading leg?
No. RTW uses a system to save on texture space. It uses mirrors of the texture (that is skinned just on one side) to texture the other. With some shields it's even 1/4 th of the texture that is mirrored 2 times further.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-14-2004, 06:25
Not that it answered my question ~:rolleyes: I suppose we can't call Greece 'Greece', either, only 'Hellas'...
OK.OK. I got carried away... Sorry... :embarassed:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-14-2004, 06:36
http://img24.exs.cx/img24/9180/jpg6.jpg
I was also thinking to substituite the shield with a round one but not sure about it since they used also this kind of shields.....
Keep this one. The Samnites were the ones that made the Romans change their round hoplite shield for this one. They developed this shield after contact with the Gallic tribes that used the oval Gallic shield. The Samnite fighting style, using this shield (scutta), caused the humiliating Roman defeat at the Caudine Forks in 321 BC. This event, and Rome's sacking by the Gauls in 387BC, was responsible for making the Romans drop the Phalanx-style warfare and implement the more all-terrain Manipular Legion (it was based on the Samnite system of warfare).

PROMETHEUS
11-14-2004, 11:35
I made the first white texture for the mercenary , while the other one is more for the national flag of Samnites , I am not sure if they used blue tough since in more representations they are in white dress..... I added this shield type since I saw in a reconstruction , gives colour and is also depicted on a flag carried by samnites so i guess this later one is better for rebel armies.....

but I ask myself is possible to add some more units to rebel list in italian provinces? since those units look more like heavy infantry to me and i was thinking to add also a skirmisher smnite infantry and a heavy cavalryman as saw in the plates ,.... also they would have been one of the major allies of hannibal versus the romans......

but is there any limit to the units we can implement?

final version of the second version...

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/7839/Samnites2.jpghttp://flagspot.net/misc/it-samn.jpg

http://flagspot.net/images/i/it_samni.jpg


http://img29.exs.cx/img29/9046/jpg10.jpg

khelvan
11-14-2004, 19:42
Yeah, with the mirrored textures on shields, that symbol does get turned into a swastika, so let's not use it.

PROMETHEUS
11-14-2004, 21:59
I don't think we should discriminate an ancient symbol used sacrifiyng historical correction....but anyway they can be both used , one for mercenaries the other as rebel .....

Ok here is a new try to make a new unit mercenary arab camelriders , more inspired for garamantes warriors of the desert tough......

here is the work in progress , I still have to adjoust severall things.....

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/9180/jpg6.jpg

khelvan
11-14-2004, 22:20
Well, to put it bluntly, using that symbol will make it illegal in Germany at least to play. I do not care to deal with the legal issues involved, do you?

Unless we can figure out a way to make sure that the texture is not reversed, and the ancient symbol does not get turned into a modern symbol of hate, it has no place in the mod, in my opinion.

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 00:50
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/5318/jpg7.jpg

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 01:46
Ok herew is the final version of the Garamantes nomads and the desert Garamantes infantry......


what you think???




http://img91.exs.cx/img91/5318/jpg7.jpg

Urnamma
11-15-2004, 02:14
Bad ass, Prometheus, just simply bad ass. I've loved both your units so far.

Stormy
11-15-2004, 05:54
They look wonderful PROMETHEUS :bow: but can I make a small Request ? Can you add like a brown top/cloak on the Garamantes like the photo you posted in the Numidian thread ?

This one (http://img23.exs.cx/img23/5164/numidians.jpg)


Good job once again PROMETHEUS ~:cheers:

Dead Moroz
11-15-2004, 10:04
Good work, PROMETHEUS!

But don't stop. Please, change 3d model - make proper cloak and shield.

About Samnites I think that "skirt" should be shorter and breastplate should be a bit smaller.

Stefan the Berserker
11-15-2004, 16:46
http://img15.exs.cx/img15/7839/Samnites2.jpg

Better don't take the Soldier on the far right as a Unit! :P

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 17:09
My 3dsmax version is not working now so untill I find what's wrong I cant edit them , may be someonels?

Seems I amspecializing in mercenaries so here is a barbarian mercenary foot soldeir how it looks?

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/9820/jpg8.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-15-2004, 17:29
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/5318/jpg7.jpg
They look very good!!! :thumbsup: Although Stormy's and Dead Moroz's comments are correct.

I would like to add something also. :sad: Please correct the curved scimitar. The scimitar was only invented shortly before the early Muslim expansion (circa 600AD). Numidians, Berbers, Bedouins and Arabs used straight medium length swords in this age. You can see exactly that in the pictures you've posted in the Numidian thread.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-15-2004, 17:40
My 3dsmax version is not working now so untill I find what's wrong I cant edit them , may be someonels?
What do you mean it's not working? Have you instaled Vercingetorix's plug-inn? Is it not working? If you have any doubts about that instalation or MAX, just PM me...


Seems I amspecializing in mercenaries so here is a barbarian mercenary foot soldeir how it looks?

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/9820/jpg8.jpg
What's wrong with their eyes? ~:eek:

I would like you to delve in the units you think you could improve to make them more like the pics in historical books, as the Osprey series.

eadingas
11-15-2004, 17:47
They are trying for the role of replacing Michael Stipe of REM :)

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 19:02
I would like you to delve in the units you think you could improve to make them more like the pics in historical books, as the Osprey series.



sorry my english isnm't so good , this sentence means?

about the eyes is just blue paints , , they dress fur equipment so that they will look more in fit with snow background , i took inspiration by a marcomanni picture in osprey nook and made him more dressed ...

Ranika
11-15-2004, 19:05
If they're to be 'generic' barbarian mercenaries, maybe their hair should be brown. It's a more wide-spread hair color than blonde, and fairly 'generic'.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-15-2004, 20:25
sorry my english isnm't so good , this sentence means?

about the eyes is just blue paints , , they dress fur equipment so that they will look more in fit with snow background , i took inspiration by a marcomanni picture in osprey nook and made him more dressed ...
It means that that specific barbarian merc, IMHO, didn't need re-styling...

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 21:23
http://img25.exs.cx/img25/5318/jpg7.jpg

restyle of the scythian leader according to the osprey table scythian king 4th cent. BC

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/1391/jpg.jpg

http://img27.exs.cx/img27/1704/jpg2.jpg

Urnamma
11-15-2004, 21:55
Damn. That Scyth looks bad ass!

PSYCHO V
11-15-2004, 23:21
Just some updates

Southern Warband almost done:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SW.jpg

Tribal Militia still working on:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/TM.jpg


Aymar, you want us to send finished Betas to you for dissemination / testing?

PROMETHEUS
11-15-2004, 23:35
looks cool but those shirts with horizontal stripes....where really used by gauls ? I will post some plates there about them too....



http://img67.exs.cx/img67/4149/jpg1.jpg

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/8006/jpg3.jpg

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/7351/jpg4.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/9180/jpg6.jpg

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/5318/jpg7.jpg

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/5242/jpg9.jpg

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/9046/jpg10.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/8734/celticnoble.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/6908/celticwarriors.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/6441/celticfanatic.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/1073/celticnoble2.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/544/celticnoblecavalry.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/1603/celticwarriors3.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5391/Rom_and_Gaul2.jpg

PROMETHEUS
11-16-2004, 00:03
Now I will post some german units.....


http://img89.exs.cx/img89/7351/jpg4.jpg

http://img89.exs.cx/img89/4460/jpg5.jpg

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/1704/jpg2.jpg

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/8006/jpg3.jpg

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/7816/jpg11.jpg

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/5504/jpg12.jpg

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/7351/jpg4.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/1704/jpg2.jpg

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/9756/germanambushthelegions.jpg

Stormy
11-16-2004, 00:04
OMFG!! they look good PSYCHO V @ PROMETHEUS. You guys are really knocking them out back to back. ~D

I can't wait to be the new Scythians in game now. ~:eek:


This mod will be the best RTS one ever ~:handball: and I'm not just saying that.... I really mean it.

Between the new skin/model units and new gameplays to the Map.. This is what I always wanted in a RTS game.. one more time OMFGF!! ~:eek:

eadingas
11-16-2004, 00:20
The 'Gallic Warriors of La Tene period' would be perfect for Lugian Union faction, or even just the provinces of Boihaemia and Lugiae. Just what we need.
BTW, I love how 'naked fanatics' always wield strategically placed shields on these pictures ;)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 00:56
http://img25.exs.cx/img25/5318/jpg7.jpg

restyle of the scythian leader according to the osprey table scythian king 4th cent. BC

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/1391/jpg.jpg

http://img27.exs.cx/img27/1704/jpg2.jpg
EXCELLENT work!!! :thumbsup: Great skinning!!!

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 01:01
Just some updates

Southern Warband almost done:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SW.jpg

Tribal Militia still working on:

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/TM.jpg
Great work PSYCHO V and Vercingetorix!!! The Southern Warband shield looks far better now...


Aymar, you want us to send finished Betas to you for dissemination / testing?
Sure. As long as they have all files working, no problem. We'll just add them to Alpha 0.3...

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 01:08
looks cool but those shirts with horizontal stripes....where really used by gauls ? I will post some plates there about them too....
Please PROMETEUS. Keep posting less images in each page of the thread or i'll delete your posts. ~:pissed:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 01:12
Now I will post some german units...
Why post 4th and 5th century AD pictures? It's out of scope of the MOD. At least for now it does not matter.

And, once again, read my previous post...

PROMETHEUS
11-16-2004, 01:51
Why post 4th and 5th century AD pictures? It's out of scope of the MOD. At least for now it does not matter.

becouse where there is no clue of how would look like a warrior of the selected century we can make reference to thje following century , since in tribal siociety the war equipment was heredited in the families so could be even ancient .....

PROMETHEUS
11-16-2004, 03:06
Numidian cavalrymen and skirmishers....notice that I removed the saddle.......

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/6866/numidianhorse.jpg

http://www.chinage.net/images/qibing/Numidian.jpg

http://img70.exs.cx/img70/8006/jpg3.jpg

PSYCHO V
11-16-2004, 08:12
looks cool but those shirts with horizontal stripes....where really used by gauls ? I will post some plates there about them too....

The strip thing?..well prob more of a Belgae thing than your standard Central Gauls. The biggest prob is the generic nature of the unit..to get a unit that can pass as 'Tribal Militia' for all of Trans and Cis-alpine Gaul.

These guys are you farmers and hire hands, poor folk in relation to the warrior class (Warband), conscripted to fight for their overlords. I was considering a generic plain brown or faded green shirt and some dull tartan duds. Oh, and the belt is going.
Verci and I were also discussing whether they should have torcs. Though some wore them, many in this class evidently (at least according to current research and historical accounts) did not. So we figure, make them distinct in this aspect and leave them off the Militia?

Ok, now as to arms. We have enabled the Warbands to throw spears. They’ll throw a volley before charging, like the Romans. The Tribal Militia will be replacing the ‘peasants’. The Skirmisher will be removed and Aquitanian Archers, Senone Slingers etc added.

Do you think we should give the Militia some javelins to throw as well as a thrusting spear to make them quasi – light javelin skirmishers?

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/TM.jpg

eadingas
11-16-2004, 09:17
Why not just give the torcs to the officers?

Ranika
11-16-2004, 09:26
They should have some type of light javelin, I think. The Gauls had 'darts', which were what preamabled the later Irish darts. I'd think these darts would be used by militias, as professional soldiers often had actual javelins. Also, I'd give them a plain, dull brown shirt, and maybe remove the mustache, as those were more of a popular item for professional warriors and aristocrats. While hardly an impossibility for the militias to have them, it would draw a difference between actual warriors and militiamen.

Their pants should be checkered, in two colors (farmers and freemen wore two-three colors, slaves wore one, warrior classes wore four-to-five, nobles wore six, and the king could wear seven colors).

PSYCHO V
11-16-2004, 10:59
Why not just give the torcs to the officers?

Well, I'd tend not to do that due to the fact that most Gallic warriors wore a torc. They were rather common.

Ranika, Ok I'll see if we can add the javelin function. I agree with your suggestions re texture..bar the mow thing.

The mow was a cultural rather than a 'class' thing for the Gauls. You could argue the Britons, Galatians even the Celtiberians but the Gauls were different. They seemed to have the mow as a quasi 'fashion symbol' late 3rd C to mid 1st C BC. Just like the mow and tartan duds were dropped in favour of the sought after / in fashion Toga post Roman conquest, the Gallic dress (including mow) was the sought after / in fashion attire beforehand. I believe enough historical evidence exists to warrant it's inclusion on all Gallic units and helps delineate them as a factional unit.

Ranika
11-16-2004, 11:30
Fair enough then on the mow. As for the javelins, the dart is about 1/2-2/3rds the length of a javelin. Should be shorter range than a javelin. Is it possible to model a new 'dart' projectile? It'd not really look too different from a javelin, really, it was just a small version of one.

Dead Moroz
11-16-2004, 12:42
Great work, PSYCHO V, Vercingetorix and PROMETHEUS! :balloon2:

But Scythian leader looks like gay! His dress is ok, but his face is something terrible. The beard must be larger. And maybe it's just me, but his face have blue hue that make him look like rouged travesty. :dizzy2:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 17:28
becouse where there is no clue of how would look like a warrior of the selected century we can make reference to thje following century , since in tribal siociety the war equipment was heredited in the families so could be even ancient .....
Fair enough. But, please, less pictures per page. Some people do not have broadband...

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 17:32
Numidian cavalrymen and skirmishers....notice that I removed the saddle.......
HE!HE!HE! Great detail... :grin:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 17:38
The mow was a cultural rather than a 'class' thing for the Gauls. You could argue the Britons, Galatians even the Celtiberians but the Gauls were different.
Sorry. Not the Celtiberians. They were mostly cleanshaven, although some tribes whore full-beards. No Gallic moustache.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 17:39
Fair enough then on the mow. As for the javelins, the dart is about 1/2-2/3rds the length of a javelin. Should be shorter range than a javelin. Is it possible to model a new 'dart' projectile? It'd not really look too different from a javelin, really, it was just a small version of one.
Well, in MTW, Darts actually had greater range than Javelins. Was that innacurate?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-16-2004, 17:42
Great work, PSYCHO V, Vercingetorix and PROMETHEUS! :balloon2:

But Scythian leader looks like gay! His dress is ok, but his face is something terrible. The beard must be larger. And maybe it's just me, but his face have blue hue that make him look like rouged travesty. :dizzy2:
I can alter the beard and hair in MAX. No problem on that. But I haven't got that model yet.

Dead Moroz
11-16-2004, 17:54
I can alter the beard and hair in MAX. No problem on that. But I haven't got that model yet.
Take care about face - make it normal color, please.

Ranika
11-16-2004, 22:47
Well, in MTW, Darts actually had greater range than Javelins. Was that innacurate?

Badly from what I can tell. It's not that a dart can't be thrown further, it's that, it's not what it's used for. Darts are made to throw at very close range, they're thrown straight at the target, not arched into the air. The idea was to use it to disarray a charging line, while you hold position. Every man throws his darts as quickly as he can, aiming for the head/neck/upper torso area of the target. If one is lucky, it will disintegrate the enemy front line. However, that was the Irish tactic, but, their darts were of a Gallic design. I think then, it's probably decent to infer they were basing their tactic upon Gallic fighting, since they were using what were essentially Gallic darts. Could easily be wrong there though, but I've never heard of darts being used, en masse, in any other way. The other method was essentially to skirmish with them, but even then, they'd run in close and hurl them straight, and withdraw, trying to draw attention away from a main attack force that would hit the target (now occupied with trying to chase down the men who threw the darts).

PROMETHEUS
11-16-2004, 23:23
I have skinned almoust all of the schythians , and the numidians , I will post here only a preview , while the full set in the appropiate thread , to not eat much bandwidth.... ~:cheers:


I tried to adapt the meshes that we have for scythians to the plates I have from Osprey to make them similar but more eterogeneal in their aspect.....

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/5636/jpg13.jpg

PROMETHEUS
11-16-2004, 23:41
here to see the others....

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=45&t=15772&st=0#entry275237

DeadRunner
11-17-2004, 01:11
Nice models prometheus

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 03:11
Could we ask officially to Agrippa to join this project , since he already made the romans and are looking great so no need to make things two times....

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-17-2004, 03:45
Well, PROMETEUS! I really like the colors you've used for the Scythian Nobles, but I have to say that most of the others are badly needing a complete re-design in MAX.

Axemen and Archer Warband are nothing similar to what the Scythians used as soldiers. IIRC, Scythians never fought barechested and never used those Gaulish hairstyles. They used large beards, long flowing air and never just a moustache. Aditionaly, the women we see depicted as fighters did not use breast-cups. They used scale armour similar to the men.

BTW, Head-Hunting Maidens are getting the sack.

Another note: Are you working for any other MOD in TWC? It would be good if we kept our work a little bit restrained here before we make a public release.

Stormy
11-17-2004, 04:38
Agrippa made excellent Romans. I really think we should ask him but the question is would he join us ? Other mods want to add his work to theirs. It won't hurt to ask.

Stormy
11-17-2004, 04:42
Nice prometheus ~:cheers:

I also agree Aymar. MAX ! MAX ! MAX !

khelvan
11-17-2004, 05:16
Agrippa is a part of the Trivium, with whom we already have a working relationship. Members of the Trivium have expressed strong interest in working together more closely with EB, and as soon as we have a solid sense of what that means I can give you all information to discuss, about future possibilities.

In any event, I am relatively sure that Agrippa would be happy to allow us to use his work, and I am also relatively sure that he is happy working with the Trivium and would not want to leave. It may turn out in the end that we invite him to work on skins for the EB project, but that is a part of the Trivium-EB future thing we still need to talk about and discuss among ourselves. See the "Trivium" thread in the protected forum for more details.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 05:54
About the models you are rihght , I couldn't use 3dsmax since when it loads the screen in it shows my descktop and I can't use it till I find A way to fix it .....sio I had to be limited to simple skinning , may be someonelse can mesh them up and use the skins I made , anyway here there is a simple comparison between the plates I used for inspiration and the skins I made......


http://img22.exs.cx/img22/5318/jpg7.jpg

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 10:00
Well, PROMETEUS! I really like the colors you've used for the Scythian Nobles, but I have to say that most of the others are badly needing a complete re-design in MAX.

Axemen and Archer Warband are nothing similar to what the Scythians used as soldiers. IIRC, Scythians never fought barechested and never used those Gaulish hairstyles. They used large beards, long flowing air and never just a moustache. Aditionaly, the women we see depicted as fighters did not use breast-cups. They used scale armour similar to the men.

BTW, Head-Hunting Maidens are getting the sack.
Absolutely agreed with Aymar. Sorry, PROMETEUS, I have to say that this time you made bad work. :rtwno: Both 3d models and textures must be redone.

And we must get rid of all female warriors!

eadingas
11-17-2004, 11:13
You sexist pig :)
(what about Britons? Was Boadicea a one-time exception?)

Ranika
11-17-2004, 13:55
There were female warriors in some Celtic armies, and while they weren't really a miniscule number of exceptions, they also didn't usually ever occur in a great enough number to actually have entire units of them.

Boudicca actually wasn't a warrior, she was more or less pushed to fight out of anger. Her 'army' mostly consisted of non-professional peasants. When she was defeated, at the battle, the families (including wives, the important part there) of the men fighting turned up at the battle to watch it, not fight in it. So, while female warriors did exist, until we can have a unit with multiple, random models in it (and have a female model that would show up rarely), it would be a big anachronism to have a unit of female soldiers in the armies of the Britons.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 14:04
Ok question then , when I open max and import a unit , lets say i just want to substituite a new shield , I delete the old one , i place in the similar position the new one and then what I do , my problem is with the bone thing how should i do to keep the animation and make it work with the new shield?, same thing with ani weapon or difference, If you explain me this part I will be able to remake them better..... :bow:

(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 14:12
There were female warriors in some Celtic armies, and while they weren't really a miniscule number of exceptions, they also didn't usually ever occur in a great enough number to actually have entire units of them.
That's what I tried to say... or was going to say... some day. ~:)


Boudicca actually wasn't a warrior, she was more or less pushed to fight out of anger. Her 'army' mostly consisted of non-professional peasants. When she was defeated, at the battle, the families (including wives, the important part there) of the men fighting turned up at the battle to watch it, not fight in it. So, while female warriors did exist, until we can have a unit with multiple, random models in it (and have a female model that would show up rarely), it would be a big anachronism to have a unit of female soldiers in the armies of the Britons.
... and the Scythians.

Ranika
11-17-2004, 14:13
And the Scythians! Meant to say that, that was the whole bloody point. Thanks for adding that in there.

eadingas
11-17-2004, 14:15
From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jnrPrp9BXXoJ:www.hoplites.co.uk/pdf/women_Warriors.pdf+FEMALE+SCYTHIAN+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?

Ranika
11-17-2004, 14:20
I don't doubt Scythian women fought, but how many of them did? This is like the Druidae argument. The British druids fought, but in so small a number, so rarely, are they really viable as a unit in the game? How often did these Scythian/Sarmatian women fight? For what span of time did they fight? If they were in common enough numbers that they could make up several units of an army, I'd have no objection, really.

However, I stand quite firmly by comments on the Britons, who did have female warriors, but in small numbers, and integrated into other forces, not a fighting force of their own.

eadingas
11-17-2004, 14:28
I suppose the question here is not whether women fought, but whether their fighting was any different from that of men... did they use different tactics, wear different gear, use different weapons... I guess not... so probably just doing all Scythian warriors clean-shaven and with long hair would be enough? This way we could always say that 30% of those warriors are female, you just can't tell them apart ;)

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 15:15
(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)
You should remake them all completely. If you really want to make good Scythian units, not that Hollywood cartoon stuff.

Don't pay too much attention to Osprey's plates. They are not always right (moreover you "copied" them wrong). Use primary sources when it's possible. I posted pictures in restricted area.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 15:33
yes but I need more info on how to , not how they where....


anyway in the mneanwhile what about this?


http://img21.exs.cx/img21/5242/jpg9.jpg

Urnamma
11-17-2004, 17:01
I love the elephants. I agree with eadingas, there is good evidence that Scythian and Sarmatian women fought. But, on the same token, do they fight so differently that they need a new unit? I think not. There's a lot more relevant units than two units of noble horse archers. (30% is an exxageration, IMO, probably no more than 10%). We should include a blurb in the description giving credit to the women, but leave some room for better warriors.

Per favore di attendere un pezzetto di fare alcune unità, PROMETHEUS. Se lei vuole, le darò alcune descrizioni buone per le unità che non ha bisogno di niente ma una pelle nuova.

Tiene a mente che parlo il francese. Il mio italiano è assolutamente orribile e la mia grammatica è peggiore.

eadingas
11-17-2004, 17:13
Unless that rumor of Trivium learning how to do multiple models is true. Then we could have two cavalry models for Scythians and Sarmatians - male and female, and have them mixed up in a cav archers unit, maybe...

Urnamma
11-17-2004, 17:19
That'd be cool as hell.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 17:20
Per favore di attendere un pezzetto di fare alcune unità, PROMETHEUS. Se lei vuole, le darò alcune descrizioni buone per le unità che non ha bisogno di niente ma una pelle nuova.

yes please post me the units I can reskin without the need to use max .... ~:cheers:

Urnamma
11-17-2004, 17:28
Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 17:47
From:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jnrPrp9BXXoJ:www.hoplites.co.uk/pdf/women_Warriors.pdf+FEMALE+SCYTHIAN+WARRIOR&hl=pl :

"[...] A role adopted because there is 100% firm
archaeological evidence to support the fighting role of Scythian and Sarmatian women within their societies"

"[...] in the 21st century, archaeologists are re-evaluating these finds. To their surprise many of the heavily weaponed bodies previously categorised as male have since turned out to be female, including the Golden warrior of Issyk. In fact, it is estimated that 30% of a Scythian fighting force would be comprised of women."

"Over the last few years, archaeologists working on over 44 Kurgans near the town of Pokrovka in Kazakhstan at the Russian border have uncovered the remains of women buried with swords and daggers, along with quivers containing arrows with bronze heads. Boney changes on the women‘s skeletons show that they spent many years in the saddle and most
had met violent death in battle. (Noble Wilford, J. 1997) These women are Sarmatian"

"To round this off I was talking with the renowned author Peter Connelly in August 2002 about the possibility of women being seen amongst Hoplite ranks and upon consideration he was in agreement that this was probably a valid hypothesis, based on illustrations and what is now known of the ”barbarian‘ contribution. ”However..‘, he mused, ”..they would have worn trousers‘. "

Any comments?
I have.

First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446679836/qid=1100706548/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2030031-9346258?v=glance&s=books) about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I found articles describing new theories about "Golden warrior" from Issyk mound (southern-eastern Kazakhstan). Yes, there are some things pointing out that the dead person was woman. But these new facts are not enough to sure say it was woman.

Second, you might missed one important thing. All these stories (by Herodotus and other ancient authors) are about eastern neighbors of Scythians. All these "sensational" finds was made in regions to the east of Scythia. In Scythian art you cannot find any image of female warrior. This amazonic stuff is not related to Scythians. So we MUST get rid of Hunting Maidens and Scythian Noblewomen.

These female units could be created for Sarmatian faction. But anyway their historical reliability is doubtful.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 17:49
Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.


mmmmmm sorry in english? :embarassed:

Urnamma
11-17-2004, 18:01
Told you my Italian was terrible...

Anyway, I'll get you some units to skin when Aymar tells me which ones don't need entirely new models.

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 18:23
Non appena PM di Aymar me sostengo, farò PM lei le descrizioni di unità e vede se lei può prendere alcuni di loro fatto.


mmmmmm sorry in english? :embarassed:

eadingas
11-17-2004, 18:30
Dead Moroz: when you say 'east', don't you actually mean 'west'? I'm getting a little confused here... Since you mention Sarmatians and Volgograd...

chemchok
11-17-2004, 18:59
First, I don't believe much to American and Western European archeologists specialized on Scythians. They are rather theorists than real archeologists (because they have very limited access to the subject they study). And I was surprised when find out that the leader of excavations in Pokrovka (near modern Volgograd; or Stalingrad in WW2) was American archeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. She wrote book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446679836/qid=1100706548/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2030031-9346258?v=glance&s=books) about women warriors. Maybe I'll even buy it, but it will take loooong time for me to get it. Did anybody read this book yet? I'm afraid that because she is woman and American (I mean that popular feministic spirits and political correctness) she may not be objective.

I haven't read the book, but there was a PBS special on Kimball's work. Here's a link to the SITE (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_amazon/index.html) for that episode, it includes a limited interview with Kimball. Keep in mind that this series is somewhat "history lite," so to speak, and it focuses on theories rather than actual archaeology, like you suggested - I'd imagine this reflects more on the show than Kimball, but I don't know.

EDIT: Oh, and whatever the case, it does seem to be a bit of a stretch to have a Scythian or Sarmatian unit that is entirely made up of women.

Salazar
11-17-2004, 20:39
Isn't it so that as far as we know the Scythians/Sarmatians, didnt make much difference between Men and Women? Also there are IMHO by far enoug sources to include maybe two Female Units for them, one on Foot, one on Horseback. This was a Thing so Typical for all we know about these Peoples that it would be Kind of Stupid NOT to include it if we're for historical Accuracy, anyway i agree it shouldnt be silly Amazon Stuff but should be based on what was found in Women's Graves and on Plates we know.
Btw: There were severeal Specials about Scythians in German TV in the Last Time and they showed that on Scyhtian Artwork it's relatively likely that they can Identify some Pictured Persons as Women, also they found Women in Graves dug in with Swords AND "Cosmetic Articles" of that Time.

I'm all for one or two Female Units for Scythians/Sarmatians

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 21:22
Dead Moroz: when you say 'east', don't you actually mean 'west'? I'm getting a little confused here... Since you mention Sarmatians and Volgograd...
Don't understand you. What did you want to say?

Dead Moroz
11-17-2004, 21:36
Isn't it so that as far as we know the Scythians/Sarmatians, didnt make much difference between Men and Women?
Scythians surely did. They had clearly defined "phallocratic" society. ~;)


Also there are IMHO by far enoug sources to include maybe two Female Units for them, one on Foot, one on Horseback.
Evidences! Give us evidences!
I've never heard anything about foot squads of "amazons".


This was a Thing so Typical for all we know about these Peoples that it would be Kind of Stupid NOT to include it if we're for historical Accuracy,
And what are those things So-Typical-For-Scythians in your opinion?

PROMETHEUS
11-17-2004, 23:17
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9820/jpg8.jpg

Ranika
11-17-2004, 23:23
Now the old elephants look really, really, really ugly. Not until seeing the two together did the original end up looking that bad to me.

eadingas
11-17-2004, 23:23
Don't understand you. What did you want to say?

Well, I'm looking at the map and I can't tell which Scyths do you mean: the ones in 'Scythia' around the Black Sea, or the ones around and beyond Caspian? Because Sarmatians and Pokrovka are east of the former, and west of the latter...

As for the gender differences in Scythian society, I tend to agree with Salazar, although as sources I can only quote numerous essays and articles found on the internet, regarding role of transsexuals and transgendered people in Scythia. This probably is not that much reliable source, however, one must keep in mind that 'gender studies'. or whatever you call it, are a new branch, and most of the data is also new... I can easily see how 'masculine' scientists of older days could misinterpret the data to support their view of things just as much as 'feminine' scientists of new may do... I think the matter is still unresolved... this is why I proposed to make one model 'androgynous' in features, since if the women fought, in all probability they fought in the same gear and manners as men, so except for facial hair they would be indistinguishable...
Of course the problem here is that Scythian men in iconography DID have facial hair.... quite lots of it...

Urnamma
11-18-2004, 01:11
The problem here is fast becoming political correctness. Gender studies tends to make up 'facts' to support predetermined conclusions... like old school Marxists or Marcusians. Scythians probably had a mostly male fighting force. Sarmatians also had a mostly male fighting force, though less so than the Scyths. They would not have had all female units. And their men would not look androgynous. Point me to an article about the transgendered in Scythia though. That sounds morbidly interesting... (didn't think they existed in the ancient world)

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 02:51
And here is how should be , I used the dress colour s of Agrippa , I hope He won't mind since this way it will blend better with his own.....

http://img94.exs.cx/img94/8006/jpg3.jpg


http://img94.exs.cx/img94/7351/jpg4.jpg


still some small detail to fix but more or less done I hope you like this time .... ~D

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 04:22
Could we ask officially to Agrippa to join this project , since he already made the romans and are looking great so no need to make things two times....
Rest assured about Agrippa. We're taking care of that... :smile:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 04:28
About the models you are rihght , I couldn't use 3dsmax since when it loads the screen in it shows my descktop and I can't use it till I find A way to fix it .....sio I had to be limited to simple skinning , may be someonelse can mesh them up and use the skins I made , anyway here there is a simple comparison between the plates I used for inspiration and the skins I made......
OK, no problem. We'll get someone to alter tham in MAX. Even I can do that.

About the pics, not bad. Some appear a lot closer to what I know, but most will really need remodelling. Good effort though!!! :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 04:35
Absolutely agreed with Aymar. Sorry, PROMETEUS, I have to say that this time you made bad work. :rtwno: Both 3d models and textures must be redone.
Go easy on him. He tries hard...


And we must get rid of all female warriors!
Sorry. Not all. Some Scythian women fought on horseback alongside men.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 04:45
Ok question then , when I open max and import a unit , lets say i just want to substituite a new shield , I delete the old one , i place in the similar position the new one and then what I do , my problem is with the bone thing how should i do to keep the animation and make it work with the new shield?, same thing with ani weapon or difference, If you explain me this part I will be able to remake them better..... :bow:
Well, I bumped into that problem too. I don't think you can solve that one, because of the bone linking. The best solution is to remodel the existing shield. It's a frustrating and time consuming job, but it can be done. The best would be for you to PM The Samnite, Vercingetorix or PSYCHO V, because I think they have already gone through the process. I have tried to remodel one and it was a bad experience. I'll try it again later.


(but anyway there where female warriors in the scythian culture , just look at the plates, ...even breast naked barbarians , see always the plates , only few could afford full scale armours since was expencive , the majority would not , anyway i would say that do I need to change only the meshes or the colour schemes too ?)
As I've said, some of them can be included with a few modelling touches.

ImperatorSulla
11-18-2004, 04:56
Prometheus, nice work. Any plans of a version with white tunics?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 04:56
http://img92.exs.cx/img92/9820/jpg8.jpg
Great work on the elehants, PROMETEUS!!! :2thumbsup:

BTW, you could try to reskin some Seleucid units that will be used for the Ptolemaic faction. Remeber to save you Seleucid textures before altering them. :grin:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 05:02
And here is how should be , I used the dress colour s of Agrippa , I hope He won't mind since this way it will blend better with his own.....

still some small detail to fix but more or less done I hope you like this time .... ~D
I like them very much. :grin2:

Only one detail. The Hastati should have, on the shoulder, a similar leather strap strap to the ones on the sides, shouldn't they? :confused:

BTW, we will need three new Roman units that only need new textures. I'll PM you with the details tomorrow. ~:)

Stormy
11-18-2004, 05:12
Great work once again PROMETEUS ~:cheers: Are you going to change the men ontop of the elephant also ? I think it will be nice also.


Agrippa !!!!! Agrippa!!! Agrippa!!!! joins the roster ? ~:eek:

You lads are going to make this game very addicting. ~:handball:

Stormy
11-18-2004, 05:18
African forest elephant


Carthaginians
http://www.hat.com/Curr/elet1.jpg
http://www.hat.com/Curr/elet2.jpg

Carthaginians
The Elephant crew
http://www.hat.com/Curr/elet3.jpghttp://www.hat.com/Curr/elet4.jpghttp://www.hat.com/Curr/elet6.jpg

Editor's notes: All texts that I've read on the North African forest elephant Loxodonta africana cyclotis say that it is extinct. There can be no doubt that these elephants are not in North Africa. Therefore I was somewhat surprised to find in the new issue (Feb. '99) of the National Geographic magazine that the Loxodonta africana cyclotis or African forest elephant is alive and kicking in Central Africa. Though no dimensions are given for these elephants, they are apparently the same as the ones that Carthage used. About 200,00 of them (to 400,000 of the large African elephants) are still around, though like their North African kin, they are threatened by extinction, not as people movers this time, but for their tusks.

Elephantine, jumbo, mammoth, anyway you look at it, elephants are big, from the Africanus to the Indicus, well, actually except for ours. The Carthaginians used the North African Forest elephant Loxodonta africana cyclotis now extinct (probably due to homo sapiens). These guys only stood about 7-8 ft tall at the shoulder. Sources show the elephants either with a tower or without. With a tower the modus operandi was obvious, you speared or shot at your enemies from a moving hill. Without the tower, the elephants' purpose would be trampling or just breaking up enemy formations by sheer bulk. Ancient writers have noted that horses, if confronted by elephants for the first time, were prone to panic due to the strange smell. However, elephants themselves were easily panicked, and battles have been lost by panicking or turning the elephants against their own soldiers.

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 05:50
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/5242/jpg9.jpg


strill working oin those two , now I post the other officers of the late period , for all those I followed this time scrupolosly the plates without adding anything more......

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 06:11
Ok I finished the two and completed those ones , the face mask of the standard bearer still needs a little work tough.....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/9046/jpg10.jpg

Nick_jeffs
11-18-2004, 06:23
great work on the late centurion, you did a good job showing how the army"barbarianized".

Stormy
11-18-2004, 06:36
Excellent :guitarist:

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 07:04
http://img89.exs.cx/img89/9180/jpg6.jpg

face mask fixed.....

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 07:52
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/7816/jpg11.jpg


Here is the legionary cohort I

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 10:09
Well, I'm looking at the map and I can't tell which Scyths do you mean: the ones in 'Scythia' around the Black Sea, or the ones around and beyond Caspian? Because Sarmatians and Pokrovka are east of the former, and west of the latter...
I mean the Scythians in "official" Scythia (northern Black Sea).
Those ones whom you call "later Scythians" are Scythians in comprehensive sense, just nomads. The real later Scythians dwelled in Crimea and close surroundings.


As for the gender differences in Scythian society, I tend to agree with Salazar, although as sources I can only quote numerous essays and articles found on the internet, regarding role of transsexuals and transgendered people in Scythia.
Links, please.

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 10:18
Go easy on him. He tries hard...
Sorry, I did not want to offend anybody. It's just a statement of fact, nothing personal.


Sorry. Not all. Some Scythian women fought on horseback alongside men.
Would you mind I quote myself? ~:)


Second, you might missed one important thing. All these stories (by Herodotus and other ancient authors) are about eastern neighbors of Scythians. All these "sensational" finds was made in regions to the east of Scythia. In Scythian art you cannot find any image of female warrior. This amazonic stuff is not related to Scythians. So we MUST get rid of Hunting Maidens and Scythian Noblewomen.

These female units could be created for Sarmatian faction. But anyway their historical reliability is doubtful.

eadingas
11-18-2004, 11:28
I mean the Scythians in "official" Scythia (northern Black Sea).
Those ones whom you call "later Scythians" are Scythians in comprehensive sense, just nomads. The real later Scythians dwelled in Crimea and close surroundings.

Ah, so that's where the confusion comes from...
So how about making the female units region-specific, only available in Tribus Sakae and east of that (as this is where Pokrovka's and Pazyryk's excavation would be, wouldn't they?)



Links, please.

Well, there's this, for example:
http://www.gender.org.uk/chstnuts/enaree.htm

And there's of course Hippocrates' account of Sarmatians, or 'Scythians'.

Perhaps the confusion is here from what the term 'Scythians' means - both in game and in reality... If we make Scythians (or Sarmatians?) a faction spreading from Black Sea to Caspian and beyond, we should include female warriors, I think. If we confine them only to the Black Sea Scythians, more evidence is needed... Maybe make female warriors a merc unit available in Tribus Sakae?

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 13:30
Ah, so that's where the confusion comes from...
So how about making the female units region-specific, only available in Tribus Sakae and east of that (as this is where Pokrovka's and Pazyryk's excavation would be, wouldn't they?)
Yes, that's almost what I'm talking about. But not region specific - faction specific (Sarmatians). And I'm still repeating: the historical accuracy of female units is very doubtful.


Perhaps the confusion is here from what the term 'Scythians' means - both in game and in reality... If we make Scythians (or Sarmatians?) a faction spreading from Black Sea to Caspian and beyond, we should include female warriors, I think. If we confine them only to the Black Sea Scythians, more evidence is needed... Maybe make female warriors a merc unit available in Tribus Sakae?
We already have Scythian faction in northern Black Sea only. They shouldn't have any female warriors, no matter what regions they may conquer.

If we will be able to create new Sarmatian faction they (Sarmatians) will have some female warriors, no matter what regions they have.

I'm afraid I'm just unable to fight with this "amazon madness" among our members.

eadingas
11-18-2004, 13:53
"I'm afraid I'm just unable to fight with this "amazon madness" among our members."

Well, on one hand we have several accounts ranging from Hippocrates to modern archeologians, on the other, we have you saying it's all 'misinterpretation'... But I'm still getting confused by the multiple 'Scythians' appearing in all this discussion. Aren't the 'Sakae' tribes also called 'Scythians'? What about 'Scythian' burial mounds in Siberia and Mongolia?

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 15:22
But I'm still getting confused by the multiple 'Scythians' appearing in all this discussion. Aren't the 'Sakae' tribes also called 'Scythians'? What about 'Scythian' burial mounds in Siberia and Mongolia?
Ok, I'll try to explain it more understandable. Look, for modern Americans all inhabitants of East Europe are ex-Soviets or even just Soviets still. No matter who they are - Russians, Poles, Czechs, Serbians, etc. They all are Reds. Now imagine - ancient Greeks and Romans are modern Americans and ancient nomads are Eastern Europeans. For ancient Greeks and Romans all nomads were not Scythians, Sarmatians, Meotes, Massagetians, Sakas, Usunes, Tokhares, Dahes, Yuezhes, etc. They all were just "Scythians". This collective name still remains in modern science. In the wide sense it means all nomadic tribes dwelled in Eurasian steppes between modern Hungary on the west and Manchuria on the east in 1 millennium BC - about 3 century AD. In the narrow sense it means just that famous Scythians from northern Black Sea. So don't wonder when you see on map "Scythians" placed somewhere near Chinese borders. Read it as "nomads". ~;)

Ranika
11-18-2004, 15:31
Actually the Poles and Serbs are usually called Poles and Serbs by the Americans. However, Russians, Georgians, the Czechs, and a few others are lumped into 'Former Soviet Bloc Nations', and referred to as 'Former Soviets' when speaking about them politically, if the subject is on early-mid 90s politics. However, no one uses the phrase 'Reds' much anymore, nor refers to anyone as Soviets except as misspeak. When talking modern politics though, large divisions are taken into account on who the Czechs or Russians or etc. are.

However, your point is correct. Without really knowing much about the people beyond the Scythian/Sarmatians, it was likely assumed anyone in the region was related or similar to them in most respects, regardless of any truth involved. The tribes near the Chinese could have been of a completely different extraction, but without time given to study their differences from Scythians, they would be assumed Scythians because of a few superficial similarities, or assumed similarities.

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 15:56
Actually the Poles and Serbs are usually called Poles and Serbs...
These guys were always lucky. :clown:

eadingas
11-18-2004, 15:59
Umm... not to get too off-topicky, but - why Serbs? ;)

PSYCHO V
11-18-2004, 16:17
Been pretty busy with work this week. Finally finished off the Southern Warband (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SouthernWarbandII.jpg).

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/barb_south_warband_gaul_INFO.jpg

Ranika
11-18-2004, 16:18
I think it has to do with the Mogadishu incident back in the 90s. The term "Serbs" was proliferated widely by media. The reason for 'Soviet Bloc' and 'former Soviet' falling out of favor is mainly news reports on the areas of the former USSR, that do not use such phraseology as "former Soviet" or "bloc nation".

And back on topic, the southern warband looks great. I was always a bit upset none of the Gauls had spiked, lyed hair. Just seemed stupid to me. The Southern Warband is a good as I could have hoped for, excellent looking, superior to CA's Gallic units for certain.

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 16:24
please guys , Even If I have been the start of this Scythian fight , could this tiopic be shifted to another topic? thanks ~:) .....would like instead to know your comments on the latest roman units I posted here is a list of the ones I reskinned , this time I have been very precise on following the plates....

early legionaire

early centurion

early standard bearer

later centurion

later standard bearer

veliti

skirmishers of late perood

archers

auxilia archers

auxilia infantry

triarii

hastati

princeps


PSICO V for me the southern band is perfect......

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 16:56
PROMETHEUS, with Romans you go right way. Good work! ~:thumb:

Just few notes:
- Remove breastplates from triarii.
- Remove gap in the bottom of chainmails of triarii and principes. Make it look like the one that standard bearer have.
- Make proper shields for early Roman units (change the shape and remove wings and lightnings).
- Make 4 color variants (for every Roman faction).

Dead Moroz
11-18-2004, 16:58
https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/barb_south_warband_gaul_INFO.jpg
Nice looking "Dancing Gaul" icon! :jumping:

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 19:05
http://img97.exs.cx/img97/1391/jpg.jpg

Here the shields of the early cohort praetoria and the late chort praetoria



- Remove breastplates from triarii.

no according to some source it was used so I leave it



Remove gap in the bottom of chainmails of triarii and principes. Make it look like the one that standard bearer have.


what's this gap? any pic?



- Make proper shields for early Roman units (change the shape and remove wings and lightnings).

the early legions I guess u refer but those are late republican legions , while the lorica segmenta legions are the veeery late republic imperial time


if u refer to the shields of the triari velites and hastati i saw that in some representations they had those simbols a bit less precise may be but they have , while on other representations they have no simbols or draws and between the two I choose the first....



- Make 4 color variants (for every Roman faction).

sure when I have more time....

but i will follow the same patterns or I can change the colours ??


anyway


the praetorians in the plates I have have white dress and not red , the early cohort I mean .....

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 19:19
http://img30.exs.cx/img30/4460/jpg5.jpg

Urnamma
11-18-2004, 19:36
Prometheus. Triarii, Principes, Hastatii should NOT have that artwork on their shields. According to fonti primarie, they did not have it.

Also, Triarii should NOT have breastplates. Only maybe 1% were rich enough to afford breastplates. They should just have mail.

Urnamma
11-18-2004, 19:36
Promethius: your artwork is bad ass, btw.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:00
http://img22.exs.cx/img22/5242/jpg9.jpg

strill working oin those two , now I post the other officers of the late period , for all those I followed this time scrupolosly the plates without adding anything more......
One detail I forgot to mention in the Triarii. They shouldn't have a breast plate at all. They used mail with mail shoulder straps, not the breast plate above the mail. Another problem: the Centurion has a cuirass (complete breast armour), therefore the shoulder pads should be metal plate, not mail. No mail on the shoulders and arms either.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:03
Ok I finished the two and completed those ones , the face mask of the standard bearer still needs a little work tough.....

http://img22.exs.cx/img22/9046/jpg10.jpg
Sorry to be a nag, but this Centurion should not have the metal shoulder plates of the Lorica Segmentata Legionaires. Since he uses mail, he should have mail shoulder pads.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:06
http://img89.exs.cx/img89/9180/jpg6.jpg

face mask fixed.....
Excellent.... :thumbsup:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:10
Would you mind I quote myself? ~:)
LOL :laugh4:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:23
We already have Scythian faction in northern Black Sea only. They shouldn't have any female warriors, no matter what regions they may conquer.
OK.


If we will be able to create new Sarmatian faction they (Sarmatians) will have some female warriors, no matter what regions they have.
OK.


I'm afraid I'm just unable to fight with this "amazon madness" among our members.
There is no Amazon madness. You're being a little harsh. So far we have taken out of the MOD:

-Screeching Women
-Headhunting Maidens
-Amazon Chariots

The only one lacking is Scythian Noble Women. Shall we make them Sarmatian Noble Women in a future 32 factions MOD?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:28
Been pretty busy with work this week. Finally finished off the Southern Warband (https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/SouthernWarbandII.jpg).

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/barb_south_warband_gaul_INFO.jpg
Great!!! And with another image description for the strategical map. :smile: :thumbsup:

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 21:30
The centurion uses scale mail , and the triari on my font used breastplate , for taking off the shoulder as I already said I need 3dsmax so can't now .....

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-18-2004, 21:40
- Remove breastplates from triarii.
Correct.


- Make proper shields for early Roman units (change the shape and remove wings and lightnings).
There is something about your shield designs that seems odd. The texture does not seem to have depth. Make a comparation of your designs to the original ones and you'll understand what I mean. I think the yellow needs a dark outline to make it more defined.

PROMETHEUS
11-18-2004, 22:33
There is something about your shield designs that seems odd. The texture does not seem to have depth. Make a comparation of your designs to the original ones and you'll understand what I mean. I think the yellow needs a dark outline to make it more defined.
__________________

fixed .....

btw I found a way to make work my 3dsmax copy again , now I will make some experiments....

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-19-2004, 01:39
The centurion uses scale mail , and the triari on my font used breastplate , for taking off the shoulder as I already said I need 3dsmax so can't now .....
OK. I'll correct the shoulders in MAX then.



As for the Triarii, Princeps, Hastati:

http://www.mcbridecollectors.com/mcbrid6.jpg

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/Legion/Images/Auxilia2_ConcImpRomeAtWar.jpg

http://people.freenet.de/totalwar/scans/ConAlesia.jpg

http://img69.exs.cx/img69/1648/RepublicanRomanArmy200-104BC.jpg

Specially these ones:

http://www.historialago.com/leg_cartago_soldadosroma_01.jpg

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/8312/HastatiPrincepsTriari.jpg



See? No breastplates over the mail armour... :smile:


As for Centurion (the guy in the back):

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gkirby/Battle2.jpg



As for the Legatus and Aquilifer:

http://www.historialago.com/leg_cartago_soldadosroma_02.jpg

As you can see the Legatus as a cuirass (integral breastplate). But the only one to use a "normal" brestplate is the Hastati.



Aquilifer:

http://www.markchurms.com/Merchant2/graphics/eagle-l.jpg



Before I send you the PM about new Roman units, how about this for Italian Allies soldiers?

http://tinypic.com/5pwub

Maybe an Etruscan too? :thinking:

PROMETHEUS
11-19-2004, 14:44
I hope you will like this , Praetorian cohort late period , whatremains to fix is ....

too bright helm crest

to make more white the tunic

to make more shaded the shield ,

but this is my very first 3dsmax modification , I used and reworked better the Agrippa model.....


http://img21.exs.cx/img21/9046/jpg10.jpg


Here the fixed version......


http://img21.exs.cx/img21/7816/jpg11.jpg

Dead Moroz
11-19-2004, 15:38
PROMETHEUS, 2 things must be changed:

- Shield: ugly pattern, wrong shape, too dark.
- Crest: too small and narrow.

http://www.figureinternational.com/beta/NEWReleases/200312/images/00137_%20MR-16_%20Soldiers%2054%20Praetorian%20Guardsman%20R_%20of%20Domitia_jpg_jpg.jpg

Aymar de Bois Mauri
11-19-2004, 16:55
PROMETHEUS, 2 things must be changed:

- Shield: ugly pattern, wrong shape, too dark.
- Crest: too small and narrow.
You're a demanding guy, hey? ~:) But I agree that the more perfect the better. The more we keep that standard the better the final result of the MOD.


BTW, PROMETEUS!!! ~:wave: Great work!!!