Pike & Musket TW ( XVI-XVII mod) in the RTW

[cegorach]

Although we still don't know much about RTW engine, I believe we can start our new thread about implementing our mod using RTW ( or future MTW 2) engine.

As far as I know it is possible to have about 300 units in RTW. If it is true this means we can add at least 30 additional units to our list in the XVI-XVII mod on MTW engine.

That is very good I believe.

Soon I will add some proposals for the new units.

For now, that is all.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:cheers:

[SwordsMaster]

I was just wondering how long would it take for You to announce this ~;)
:charge:

[Sad Ronin]

Polish Winged Hussar (early)
http://img121.exs.cx/img121/5354/WingHussars.th.jpg (http://img121.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img121&image=WingHussars.jpg)

[cegorach]

Brilliant !!! :bow:

Marvellous !!! :charge:

Amazing !!! ~:cheers:


.... Ok I am all right now.

For early Hussars remove the wimgs, for late please eliminate the shield, the rest is perfect to me !!! ~D

[Sad Ronin]

Okay

I ask a pardon for absence of animal fur on shoulders...))
There was no place on texture... Though if remove wings to early (though I met the images with wings, but some other kind) - that is possible I shall add fur of leopard. can then early to make with sabres? And late - with pikes?

Still I would like hear the comment concerning cosssacks. You have received my letter?

[SwordsMaster]

wow! I've got to say that looks very promising ~:cheers:

BTW, Sad Ronin, my aunt lives in Odessa.

[cegorach]

So here is the unit list - it is from P&M TW for the MTW, so more units can be added as well.

The names are in national languages, some units will be also available as mercenaries, regional troops or for several factions.
Units unique for one faction only are marked with #


FACTIONS AVAILABLE - the rest will be rebels and their units will be available as regional units for every/several factions untill it will be possible to add more ( an addon to the RTW ???).

ENGLAND
HUNGARY
VENICE
SWITZERLAND
THE KNIGHTS
DANEMARK
SPAIN
CRIMEAN KHANATE
HAPSBURG - AUSTRIA, HRE
THE NETHERLANDS
FRANCE
SWEDEN
PORTUGAL
COSSACKS
POLAND
RUSSIA
THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

FOR MANY FACTIONS or all of them ( cultures)
Artillery:
Organ Gun,
Mortar,
Demi-Culverin,
Culverin Crew,
Mercenary Cannon,
Serpentine,
Siege Cannon,

Infantry:
Archers,
Urban Militia,
Town Militia,
Pavisiers,
Pavise Arbalesters,
Arquebusiers,

Muslim Feudal Levy - only Muslim factions ( except Tatars), a typical 'cannon fodder',

Wagon Infantry - hard to create, maybe a form of field fortifications.

Cavalry:
General - different for different cultures,
Lancers - basic heavy cavalry from late Medieval,
Demi-Lancers - for western factions,
Mounted Crossbowmen,
Eastern Lancers - lighter than western lancers,
Mounted Arquebusiers,

ADVANCED:
Line Infantry,
Grenadiers,
Regimental Cannons,

DISMOUNTED CAVALRY - if possible
Nobles - several eastern european cavalry units,

Dismounted armoured cavalry - eastern european and ottoman heavier cavalry,

Knights - or rather sword & buckler - several western european cavalry units shpuld dismount into them, also available as an infantry unit for some factions ( e.g. the Knights);

Dismounted Cavalry - modern, western cavalry units will dismount into this;

REBELS
Fanatics,
Rebel Marksmen - experts at hiding,
Peasants,
Peasant Guerillas - expert at hiding,

REGIONAL
Czeremisi - VOLHYNIA AND VOLGA-BULGARIA
Uskok - DALMATIA
Musketyri - BOHEMIA
Wallon Pikemen
Wallon Corselets - 'corselets' so heavy, armoured pikemen,
Wallon Musketeers


MERCENARIES - many more units will be available as mercenaries e.g. Cossacks, Scots, Swiss etc. But here are the units which will be available as mercenaries ONLY,

Infantry------>
Lancknecht Pikemen,
Lancknecht Halbardiers,
Lancknecht Armoured Pikemen,
Doppelsoldner,
Lancknecht Arquebusiers,
Mercenary Musketeers,
Mercenary Pikemen,
Italian Arquebusiers - IN ITALY
Italian Corselets
Italian Pikemen

Cavalry---->
Free Lancers,
Mercenary Dragoons,
Reiter - IN GERMANY
Mercenary Cuirassiers
Albanian Stradiots - IN ITALY


THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

Infantry------->

'cannon fodder'
Sekbans#
Azebs#
Tüfekchi # - musket armed, so better;

brigands & pirates
Martolos - greek bandits,
Levends #
Panduks - marksmen,
Ta'ifat Al Ru'sa - algerian pirates,

Jannissaries
Zirhli Nefer# - heavayinfantry, polearms;
Okchu Yenicheri#
Tüfekchi Yenicheri#

Cavalry----->

border cavalry, also Ghazi
Akinji#
Deli#

feudal cavalry
Timarli Sipahi#
Jebelü #

elite cavalry
Kirmizi Bayrak # - majority
Ashaghi Bölüks # - guardians of the Prophet's Banner
Sari Bayrak# - Sultan bodyguards,

balcan auxiliary, heavier cavalry, probably there is a better name for them I'll check
Voynuk


GEORGIA - #ALL

Infantry---->
Aragvlebi
Mtiulebi
Kveiti Meomrebi
Metopheni

Cavalry------>
Elite Mkhedrebi
Shubosani Mkhedrebi


RUSSIA - #- ALL

Infantry---->

musket/arquebus armed
Pishchalshchiki
Streltsy
Soldaty
Vybranniye Soldaty

pikemen
Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki
Kopeyshchiki
Vybranniye Kopeyshchiki

others
Dismounted Ryndy
Opolcheniye

Cavalry----->

feudal cavalry
Pomestnaya Konnitsa
Znat
Ryndy

reformed
Reytary
Draguny

russian copies of Polish cavalry types
Gusary
Stremenniye Kopeyshchiki

others
Stremenniye Streltsy
Sluzhiliye Kazaki
Tatarskaya Konnitsa


MOLDAVIA

infantry--->
Razesi
Calarisi#

cavalry-->
Oastea Mare Cavalry
Wallachian Cavalry
Oastea Mica Viteji
Oastea Mica Boyars

POLAND - #-ALL EXCEPT "Lisowczycy" who are mercenaries,

Cavalry---->

professional
Petyhorcy,
Pancerni,
Husaria - Winged Hussars
Kozacy- armoured, ancestors of Pancerni;
Strzelcy,
Dragoni,
Rajtarzy,
Tatarzy - Polish/Lithuanian Tatars,
Wolosi,

noble levy
Szlachta
Kresowa Szlachta

mercenaries, for Poland 'normal' unit
Lisowczycy


Infantry------>
Piechota wybraniecka

reformed
Piechota lanowa
Muszkieterzy
Pikinierzy

COSSACKS

Infantry---------->

Ukrainian Peasants - 'cannon fodder', numerous and cheap;#

Molodyki - young Cossacks, light pikes, 'cannon fodder';#

Zaporozhye - 'core' infantry, good musketeers;

Serdjuks - elite musketeers;#

Plastuny - Cossack foot scouts, hide everywhere, marksmen;#

Harakterniki - cossack legendary warriors, hide everywhere, hard to get;#

Cavalry-------->

Storozha - Cossack horse scouts, hide in long grass;#

Reyestrovie - basic cavalry, average quality;

Dzhura - cossack bodyguards, god quality cavalry;#

SWEDEN - #ALL

Infantry------->

early
Svennar
Dalkarlar
Kungliga Majestäts Drabanter

reformed
Musketerare
Pikenerare
Svenska kommanderade musketörer
Kungliga Maj:ts garde och livregemente

Cavalry------>
Upplands ryttare
Dragoner
Smalands ryttare
Hakkapeliitta - Finnish cavalry

PORTUGAL - #ALL
Piqueiro Ligeiro
Marinheiro Portugues - Portuguese sailors

arquebusiers on camels !
Arcabuzeiros de Goa

FRANCE #-ALL

Infantry ---->

early
Royal Swiss Pikemen
French Royal Foot Arquebusiers
French Royal Foot Pikemen

Enfants Perdus - French Forlorn Hope

reformed ( Richelieu)
French Musketeers
French Pikemen"}
Mousquetaires du Roi

Cavalry---->

early
Gendarmes de la Garde
Argoulets

reformed
French Light Cavalry
French Heavy Cavalry
Mousquetaires du Roi - elite, dismountable



THE NETHERLANDS

Infantry--->
Watergeuzen#

pikemen
Piekeniers met rondas #
Pikeniere#

musketeers
Musketiere#

Cavalry---->
Ghemeijn ruyteren#
Gheappoicteerde curassiers#

HAPSBURG - AUSTRIA, HRE

Infantry---->
Musketiers
Piekeniers
Verlorne Haufe - Forlorn Hope !
Rondartschiere#

Cavalry ------>
Croats
Empire Reiters#
Empire Cuirassiers#

LIVONIAN CONFEDERACY ( OR TEUTONIC ORDER)
Courland Reiters

CRIMEAN KHANATE ( Tatars)
Kirim Suvari# - elite
Izci Tatarlar - scouts, hide in long grass !!
Kipchak Asker#
Atli Tatarlar
Nogay Asker#
Tatars with arkans# - slave hunters

Infantry
Keffe Bekci# - crimean Jannissaries

SPAIN #-ALL

Infantry----->
Rodeleros
Guardia Tudesca

projectiles
Arcabuceros
Ballesteros - albalesters
Forrajeros
Mosqueteros
Mosqueteros - REFORMED

pikes
Corseletes
Picas Secas
Piqueros
Piqueros - reformed unit

special
Encamisados - hide everywhere,

Guardia Real - elite

Cavalry---->
Archeros
Celadas
Celadas - later period
Dragones
Herreruelo
Nueva Guardia


DANEMARK
Infantry ----->
Snapphanar# ambush experts

Cavalry ---->
Rostjenste#
Nationale Ryttere#


SWITZERLAND
Swiss Pikemen
Swiss Armoured Pikemen#
Swiss Halberdiers

THE KNIGHTS
infantry
Order Militia#

VENICE, GENOA
infantry
Scapoli - marines,

FLORENCE
cavalry
Bande Nere# - the Black Band


HOUGENOTS

cavalry
Millers#

HUNGARY - will be revised thanks to the help of Speiz_Bankurt
Infantry---->
Haiduks
Cavalry---->
Szekely#
Hungarian Hussars#
Rac


SCOTLAND
Highland Clansmen#
Scottish Archers
Scottish Pikemen
Scottish Musketeers
Montrose's Musketeers# - veteran unit able to beat enemy cavalry in melee;

IRELAND

Infantry------>

Omacach - elite melee infantry;

Enniskillen Fusiliers - elite musketeers, 'bulletproof vests';

Oaghancocharan - elite marksmen and ambush fighters;

Kernbannal - basic rebels, javelins;

Galloglaidh - axe wielders, elite melee unit;

Cavalry------>

Hobilars - good quality lancers with javelins;

Taghhoba - good quality mounted arquabusiers;


EGYPT - some units also for the Ottomans,

Infantry------->
Mamluk Handgunners#,
Ashirs - syrian militia,

Cavalry------>
Mamluk Horse Archers#
Saharan Cavalry
Mamluk Cavalry

Camels
Bedouin Camel Guns#
Bedouin Camel Warriors

ENGLAND

Infantry------>
Longbowmen#
Sprinkler Men#
Billmen#
Trained Band Billmen#
Trained Band Musketeers#
Trained Band Pikemen#

cavalry--->
Border Reivers

New Model Army-->
Ironsides#
New Model Army Musketeers#
New Model Army Pikemen#


Saxony LifeGuards#

BAVARIA
Bavarian Black Cuirassiers - Pappenheimer's cavalry

BRANDENBURG

HANSA

Hansa Town Militia

NAVARRAE



I will edit this post if something serious will be changed.

ALL these units are already available in the MTW edition of this mod - check the thread in the Engineers Guild and my sign for downloads.
The beta 0.6. pre-release is including two from many more historical battles for this mod.

ALL these units are known in details ( mostly), which allows recreating them in the RTW engine mod.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[HahnHolio]

Wow ... this sounds so kewl, i cant belive it :)

plz get this up and runing for me ....

regards

HahnHolio

[SwordsMaster]

sorry to start criticising as Im probably not the one who should be speaking, but I have to say that "Vybranniye Soldati" sounds stupid ("Chosen Soldiers" in english).

[Dirty peasant]

Well Russian units name sounds fine for me except Vybranniye Soldaty and Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki i always thought that Strelets were russian word for musketeer.

@Sad Ronin
Btw а ты случаем не с twow будешь?

[SwordsMaster]

Strelets were russian word for musketeer.

not exactly. They carried a samopal, an axe and a sword IIRC.

[Dead Moroz]

Hi, all! I'm almost back in this group.

Well Russian units name sounds fine for me except Vybranniye Soldaty and Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki i always thought that Strelets were russian word for musketeer.
Íó, äà, çâó÷èò õðåíîâî. Íî êàê èõ åùå íàçâàòü? Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî â êàæäîì ñòðåëåöêîì îòðÿäå áûëî íåáîëüøîå ïîäðàçäåëåíèå êîïåéùèêîâ, òèïà, òåõñàïïîðò. Êàêîãî-òî íàçâàíèÿ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, ó íèõ íåò è íå áûëî. Íî â èãðå îíè äîëæíû áûòü, òîìó ùî à) îíè ðåàëüíî ñóùåñòâîâàëè; á) íàäî æå êàê-òî ïðèêðûâàòü ñòðåëüöîâ... ìîëîäöîâ (÷åì ýòè êîïåéùèêè â ðåàëüíîñòè è çàíèìàëèñü). Âîò òàêàÿ áàéäà. Åñëè ó òåáÿ åñòü ëó÷øåå ïðåäëîæåíèå ïî íàçâàíèþ - ïðåäëàãàé.

Íàñ÷åò "Âûáðàííûõ". Áûëà ïðè ñòàðîì ðåæèìå öàðñêàÿ ãâàðäèÿ, æèëà â Ìîñêâå, îõðàíÿëà öàðÿ. È íàçûâàëèñü îíè, ðåàëüíî, Âûáðàííûå.

@Sad Ronin
Btw à òû ñëó÷àåì íå ñ twow áóäåøü?
À òû ñàì, ñëó÷àéíî, íå ñ dirty.ru?

[Sad Ronin]

to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)


to MERCENARIES
where Scottish mercenaries?
Cossacks too often acted in a role of the mercenaries in many armies of many countries

to Poland
Panc³rn³e kozaki?
Pospolitoe Rushenie ?

COSSACKS

Infantry
"Ukrainian Peasants"}#
"Serdiuks"}
"Cossack Wagon Infantry"}
Cavalry
"Cossack Veterans"}#
"Cossack Sotnia"}
To tell the truth I not like it...))

Transylvania?
Wallachia ?

Dirty peasant
@Sad Ronin
Btw à òû ñëó÷àåì íå ñ twow áóäåøü?
Ñëó÷àåì áóäó...)) Ronin.

Dead Moroz
Íó, äà, çâó÷èò õðåíîâî. Íî êàê èõ åùå íàçâàòü? Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî â êàæäîì ñòðåëåöêîì îòðÿäå áûëî íåáîëüøîå ïîäðàçäåëåíèå êîïåéùèêîâ, òèïà, òåõñàïïîðò. Êàêîãî-òî íàçâàíèÿ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, ó íèõ íåò è íå áûëî. Íî â èãðå îíè äîëæíû áûòü, òîìó ùî à) îíè ðåàëüíî ñóùåñòâîâàëè; á) íàäî æå êàê-òî ïðèêðûâàòü ñòðåëüöîâ... ìîëîäöîâ (÷åì ýòè êîïåéùèêè â ðåàëüíîñòè è çàíèìàëèñü). Âîò òàêàÿ áàéäà. Åñëè ó òåáÿ åñòü ëó÷øåå ïðåäëîæåíèå ïî íàçâàíèþ - ïðåäëàãàé.
Agree on 100%
Íàñ÷åò "Âûáðàííûõ". Áûëà ïðè ñòàðîì ðåæèìå öàðñêàÿ ãâàðäèÿ, æèëà â Ìîñêâå, îõðàíÿëà öàðÿ. È íàçûâàëèñü îíè, ðåàëüíî, Âûáðàííûå.

Then + Polk Novogo Stroja

[SwordsMaster]

God, all that russian text looks like elfic or something...

[Sad Ronin]

SwordsMaster
Ea...)
We are elves...)))
Simply change the coding with West-European ISO on Cyrillic (Windows) ))

[Dead Moroz]

SwordsMaster
Ea...)
We are elves...)))
Simply change the coding with West-European ISO on Cyrillic (Windows) ))
No! On Elfian (Windows). Or Elfian (KOI8-E).

[Dead Moroz]

to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)
Íå óâåðåí íàñ÷åò Ïîñîøíîé Ðàòè, íå ïðèïîìíþ, ÷òîáû ÿ ãäå-íèáóäü òàêîå ñëîâîñî÷åòàíèå âñòðå÷àë. Äà è âîîáùå, íå ñëèøêîì ëè ñëîæíî? Âîò, Îïîë÷åíèå - ïðîñòî, ïîíÿòíî è... êðàñèâî. ~:)

Íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, òåðìèí "ïîëêè íîâîãî ñòðîÿ" - ãîðàçäî áîëåå ïîçäíèé. Âî âðåìåíà îíûå åãî íå óïîòðåáëÿëè... Âïðî÷åì, êîíå÷íî, "ïîìåñòíîé êîííèöû" òîãäà òîæå íå áûëî. Íî, â îòëè÷èå îò êàâàëåðèè, äëÿ íîâîé ïåõîòû ìû èìååò àóòåíòè÷íîå íàçâàíèå. È ñòðåëêîâ, è ïèêåéùèêîâ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, íàçûâàëè "ñîëäàòû". Ïîñêîëüêó â èãðå ìû èìååì äâà ðàçíûõ âèäà þíèòîâ è, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, äîëæíû èì îáîèì äàòü êàêèå-òî èìåíà, òî ÿ è ïðåäëîæèë: ñòðåëêîâ íàçûâàòü ñîëäàòàìè, à ïèêåéùèêîâ - êîïåéùèêàìè (äàáû ââîäèòü â çàáëóæäåíèå ïðîòèâíèêà). Íó, ðåàëüíî, íå íàçûâàòü æå èõ "Ñîëäàòû-êîïåéùèêè" èëè "Ñîëäàòû ñ êîïüÿìè"? Õåðíÿ êàêàÿ-òî ïîëó÷èòñÿ. À ïî÷åìó íå "ïèêåéùèêè" èëè "ïèêèíåðû"? Ïîòîìó ÷òî, íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, ýòî òåðìèíû áîëåå ïîçäíåãî âðåìåíè.

Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, ðóññêèå ãâàðäåéöû òîæå äîëæíû íàçûâàòüñÿ "âûáðàííûå ñîëäàòû" è "âûáðàííûå êîïåéùèêè".

[Dirty peasant]

Dead Moroz
Íååååààà ÿ ñàì ïî ñåáå ~:)
Íó ìîå äåëî - êðèòèêà ~D.×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ íà áóðæóéñêîì ÿçûêå ïðî÷èòàòü ýòè íàçâàíèÿ òðóäíî , äà è çíà÷åíèå èì íåïîíÿòíî ~;) Âîçüìèòå âñåõ þíèòîâ èç êàçàêîâ è òîãî...Íó ÿ ýòî òàê äëÿ ïîíòà...

[Duke Malcolm]

You could call the Scottish Musketeers 'Royal Scots'

[SwordsMaster]

@ Dead moroz

Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri.
About the guard, well call them just Vybranniye (the chosen) instead of the chosen soldiers which sounds waaaaay more stupid.

And as a side suggestion, why dont you write in english to make it readable to everyone else as well. :book:

[Silver Rusher]

WOW!!! That's one hell of a lot of factions you got there.

Limitations: 20 total (21 including rebels) and this includes the 4 auto-allied factions. If you take away three auto-allied factions and just leave the Senate (you may have to have at least one other) you still have a limit of 17.

I'm bummed by this too, I had to cut a whole load of factions out of the CTW mod.

[Dead Moroz]

Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri.
Who?

About the guard, well call them just Vybranniye (the chosen) instead of the chosen soldiers which sounds waaaaay more stupid.
There are 2 kinds of guard - riflemen and pikemen. If RTW engine allows us to have two different units with one shared name then I don't mind that both these units are called just "vybranniye".

And as a side suggestion, why dont you write in english to make it readable to everyone else as well. :book:
Because no one english speaking member complains about these names. ~;)

[SwordsMaster]

Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri. Who?
"Ñîëäàòû-êîïåéùèêè" èëè "Ñîëäàòû ñ êîïüÿìè"?

There are 2 kinds of guard - riflemen and pikemen. If RTW engine allows us to have two different units with one shared name then I don't mind that both these units are called just "vybranniye".

But "Vybranniye musketeri" or even "musketeri gvardii" and the same for the pikemen to make it a bit more readable.

see, the point here is not to use 15th century names, because the language actually evolved in the last 5-6 centuries, so theres no much point using names that are meaningless for us. I mean, try to respect the original ones as long as possible, but dont let that lead to ridiculous points. If theres no satisfactory orignal name, then use a different one as long as the concept is the same. Thats my opinion of course...



Because no one english speaking member complains about these names.

Okay get your point. ~;)

[Silver Rusher]

But it is possible to have two different units with the same name.

OK, I'll shut up now...

[Ranika]

The Irish in this period had Taghcach, they were fairly rare 'file' musketeers, and Oaghancocharan "Woodfolks of Cochoran", who were guerrilla riflemen, and cavalry involved Hobilar (medium cavalry using throwing spears, and a lance, riding hobby ponies, armored in chain with metal plates on it), and Taghhoba, gun-using Hobilar, who wore only padded armor, but would instead ride in a circle round the target, and used an axe in melee.

Other infantry included Claghcach, who are quite advanced over their dark age forebears. Instead of being unarmored and lacking a shield, they use a rather large, thick wooden shield akin to a Scottish targe, and a longsword. Later ones, Omacach, also carried a flintlock pistol, fire a single shot right before they charge, or into a charge enemy, to soften them up for the melee.

Caladnaght (Hard Men), used a large two-handed sword, and were mainly employed for anti-armor purposes, a 'homegrown' version of gallowglass (though they actually preceded gallowglass, who were high medieval mercenaries, originally). Gallowglass used an axe more regularly than a sword, a sparth, which is a double-bladed axehead on a 2 meter shaft. Caladnaght dressed in the same manner as a Gallowglass (and if they were used, utilizing most of the same model would probably do the job for that just fine, just change the weapon, and the skin a bit to give a unique look).

Kerns used a slightly elongated lochaber axe in this period, and are no longer peasants, but semi-professional soldiers, who train and serve 4 months each year (the levies actually cycled in and out, you train 4 months, each man trades places with another, who trains and serves 4 months, and so on).

I know the Irish may seem like a footnote to most people, but France and Spain both saw Ireland as a major nation in this (and most preceding) period, and used, widely, Irish soldiers and mercenaries, but mainly saw them important due to silver and marble that came from Ireland (producing fairly decent trade revenues in Ireland). When the English Victorian Conquests were completed, Irish nobles fled to France and Spain where they were immediately given lands, and sometimes control over private armies. The Irish are only a footnote because the island came under near complete dominion of the British (though, technically, a few towns and small pockets never had British rule exerted on them, and some places in the west felt British rule only slightly). But they had influence over both Spain and France, which is pretty impressive. They're mostly overlooked in this period because, I think, British accounts. The old 'victors write history' chestnut. It's notable many of the conquests were done by buying clan heads and local kings, rather than too many military struggles. While Irish field armies didn't often beat English ones, Irish raiding forces could decimate a force easily 4 times their size. The best Irish units should be fast raiding units who are capable of hiding anywhere, and good ambushers, though Irish fusiliers, called Raohcach, were supposed to be good line infantry, they were just very small in number due to the expense of outfitting them.

The Irish were unified, though it was tenuous, because the English kept buying clan heads, and that was disconcerting to most. Even if not a faction, Irish provinces should then, at least, be heavily prone to rebellion, if possible (as, it was a rebellion in the late 1910s that established a free Irish state, and those rebellions had been going on everywhere there was English rule for nearly 700 years, the Irish were not fond of outside rulers).

[SwordsMaster]

Good info Ranika. I checked and you are right there were many spanish military leaders with surnames such as O´Donell and O´Riordan. Most of the fonts are of a later period (XVIII-XIX cent). I guess in the Early modern age the Iquisition was too powerful to allow many of these men to get positions of power.

[Ranika]

In the earlier periods, there were fewer Irish leaders, because much of Ireland was still indepedent, so they didn't need to flee to Spain or France yet. Instead, they'd flee to neighboring lands in Ireland, with their forces, and launch counterstrikes. The wars between the English and Irish lasted for centuries (which is another reason just being a rebel province would kind of annoy me, since they would fall too quickly).

Edit;
Well, "indepedent". It was technically a British protectorate, it would not be a British property until the act of union. It did not give Britain soldiers (except as mercenaries) until the act of union, and broke this protectorate status multiple times. Only east and south Ulster, Meath, and the north of Leinster in Ireland were actually under direct British rule.

[cegorach]

I edited the unit list post. I have also chosen the factions which should be present in the mod.
I am really disappointed that only so few factions can be used.
I hope that future MTW 2 will allow more.
Anyway, lets do it really good, quality should be our primary concern.

@Names

I do not really care they can be called 'Vybranniye', both units.
Actually the same way it was done in MTW P&M TW also here it is your choice how the units should be called like. ~:)

@ Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki

These were the pikemen used to cover Streltsi from cavalry.


New units for Cossacks and Hungary soon, other factions will get something after this.
Thanks to efforts of many supporters of the P&M TW, especially AlexPeters, Swordmaster and Dead Moroz I have really HUGE resources to choose new units from.


regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[Dead Moroz]

But it is possible to have two different units with the same name.
That's what I wanted to know.

[cegorach]

@Ranika

Very interesting info about the Irish. I know Irish historu well, but the unit ideas are something very useful, especially the fact that they have Irish names as well, which is very important for this mod.

Although Ireland will be only a rebellious province/provinces and not a faction ( RTW engine doesn't allow too much) many units from your proposals will be used, I believe.


GENERALLY

Soon we will have our own webside, with some kind of forum, most likely.

Soon I will place new units for Cossacks, Ireland ( rebels) and maybe for Hungary as well.

BTW - there is another historical battle for the P&M TW for MTW ready to download. Several more will be ready later.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[Ranika]

As for correct names, then, if you wish lingually correct, it isn't Gallowglass. Gallowglass is actually Anglicized from Galloglaich, Galloglaidh, or Galloglahaidh. It means 'Foreign Warrior', but implies the warrior is of a Gaelic extension. Gallowglass were mercenaries, after all, from the Hebrides. The Scots employed them too, and so did the English from time to time.

Even if the Irish are rebels, I'd like to see them with proper units, that'd be pleasing enough. And if ever some new factions could be added, and there were space, it'd be nice to see them added, but I know they wouldn't be near the top of the list, there are plenty of more important factions to be used before hand. A good thing, though, for many Irish units, is that they were mercenaries. Perhaps they could be implemented that way? The French and Spanish, as mentioned, used Irish soldiers (and commanders, to quite a good effect, especially against the English, as the Irish rather vehemently hated them), so having them hireable as mercs in Spain or France may be done? Or, alternatively, have ancillaries that the Spanish and French can get? Like an 'Irish retainer', who'd provide a command bonus against the English maybe? Or, maybe, at least, some Irish surnames for Spanish/French commanders, representing the presence of Irish nobles in their armies. I know it's all a nitpick, but it is a historically accurate nitpick.

At the very least, I hope it can be made so 'rebels' appear often in Ireland, though I wish that could be based on the faction controlling it. The Irish were actually vaguelly willing to submit to a French king at one point, and were less rebellious under a Scottish ruler, but they rebelled nigh constantly under English rule. It's a pity that can't be simulated (at least, I don't think so).

I'm also aware finding the proper names for types of Irish soldiers at the time is a severe pain. There is very little written about the various gunpowder units employed by the Irish. However, an interesting provinicial unit for whoever is in control of Ireland may be Enniskillen Fusiliers. They actually wore what was essentially a prototype bullet proof vest, made of leather, padding, a chain shirt, and then another layer of padding. Enniskillen is in Ulster, if there is more than one Irish province it should be confined to the north/eastern portion, if used, but it would be unique, rather than just another rifleman.

My recommendations for what to use for the Irish rebels then, would probably be:
Kerns, as they were the basic soldiers employed by the Irish

Galloglaidh, I recommend this spelling only because it's from my dialect, any of the others would be fine, but for lingual correctness, I'd not use Gallowglass. They'll also do the work of the Claghcach I noted, I'd also have them available as mercenaries in Ireland, Scotland, and England

Hobilars, basic cavalry of the Irish in this period, but not light cavalry, that's a mistake. They rode ponies, but were well armored and well trained. They throw javelins before charging with their lance.

Taghhoba, mounted riflemen, also on hobby ponies, wearing padding, with an iron helmet

Oaghancocharan, actually, maybe as mercs, the Spanish and French used them to ambush enemies in forests, as they were used to hiding in trees for days at a time, and excellent marksmen, they would would be a threat to British patrols until the Irish free state came about, Michael Collins actually recruited some of them (since they operated, largely indepedent of any resistance movements, they just hated the British, one of them is actually likely who killed Collins).

Omacach, just because they seem unique, I've not heard of many similar types of soldiers, and they were responsible for maintaining the indepence of a few of the aforementioned pockets, from British rule. Pretty efficient soldiers at the time, since their shields could stop a musket ball, they had good sword fighting skills, and their pistol would loosen up the enemy formation before their charge. The areas that employed them ended up being largely ignored, because, in a victory over them, at the period, you were almost guaranteed a great deal of casualties, and that was just not worth it most of the time.

Also, include the Taghcach, just Irish musketeers, and Raohcach, the Irish fusiliers. Nothing particularly special or different about them, just reskinned, or made into mercenaries, but important to note is Irish clothing, they wore long shirts that stopped at the knee, called a leine, the same clothing they had for over a millenium, by this time, the more advanced soldiers (such as Galloglaidh and Hobilar) wore cloaks and capes, as well as trews, checkered pants, or chainmaille leggings (if they wore chain). The Irish still used war cries (and some units in the Irish Army today are still taught them, proper stances for shouting them, etc., but that's a tradition thing). If recording new sounds, and wanting to use a war cry or two, some common ones by this point included the famous 'Eireann Go Bragh' (shouted at the top of their lungs, this was used by just about any Irish soldiers, including those in the service of other nations), 'Bas och náire' = 'Death and disgrace', was popular with guerillas who would scream it at foreign enemies.

I'm aware not all, or even most of these suggestions and this information will/can be used, but I hope enough of it can be used, and that it is helpful. I'm aware there are many constraints, and so I hardly expect all or most of it, but I hope this helps.

[SwordsMaster]

Great stuff Ranika!

Army today are still taught them, proper stances for shouting them, etc., but that's a tradition thing



Really? Talk about modernization..... ~:confused:
I imagine is something of the type of the Haka the New Zealand rugby players perform before their games....

[Ranika]

'War cries' are still taught in many armies as a manner of 'pumping up', such as United States Marines shouting 'Hoorah', and similar things. The Irish army has similar things, except they're based on old cries. It has nothing to do with modernization, the Irish military is as modernized as it can afford to be, and is little different than the British military, which is quite modern. War cries and shouts are used though as a method to get the andrenaline pumping while training and the like, but not used in actual warfare, generally.

Of proper names for Irish units, the one real problem with finding 'proper' names for Irish soldiers is the variety of dialects in Irish, and how drastically different some are, such as An Mhumain being almost an entirely different language than Connachta or Ulaidi, plus the names not being from the modern Irish, which has changed a lot in the last 300 or so years in many places.

[SwordsMaster]

On Provinces:

The new RTW engine allow more flexibility in this aspect, and the spanish provinces of the XVI cent are wuite different from the roman ones, so here is the list:

-Castilla central province, capital: Madrid (replaces Numantia) in the later campaign after 1560, Toledo before 1560 approx. Very slow pop growth in cities, decent farming income, mines, the richest of all spanish cathedrals (i.e. Very good money from tributes, little trading upgrade, mines, farming upgrades, poor pop. growth).

- Andalucia capital, Sevilla, replaces Corduba. Good pop growth, sensible unrest, poor tax collection, can build the "Torre del Oro" building that allows trade with America. HUGE trading income, good farming lands.

- Valencia: capital, Valencia (replaces Carthage Nova). Good farming, average pop growth, decent trade income, high unrest.

- Aragon: capital Barcelona, VERY POOR pop growth, good trade income, mines, high unrest, average farming.

- Navarre: Capital: Pamplona (replaces Asturica), good pop growth, high unrest, poor trade income, mines, poor farming.

- Sicily: Im not too sure if we should make this one a single province. If so, the capital should be Palermo, if not, let me know and i´ll do some more research.

- Granada:capital:Granada low pop growth, mines, easy defence (mountain passes), good farming, poor sea trade (except with morocco). average rebelliousness. (should have the culture penalty no matter what)

- Naples: Same as for Sicily, but Capital: Naples.

- N. Africa. This is a tricky one: the sapnish controlled a few cities in N. Africa, but I dont know if that is enough as to make it a province belonging to Spain. You decide.



General considerations: the "Torre del Oro" was the buiding where all the gold from America was stored before being distributed among the different places. The buildng is in every postcard of Sevilla so it shouldnt be too hard to find. Anyway I can send it by email. I was thinking that maybe this one could be one of the "wonders" in this period. And give to whoever controls it a bonus similar to the Colossus of Rhodes. Or even bigger as it was the only spanish port allowed to trade with America.

Any thoughts?

Edit for Granada.

[cegorach]

@Ranika

Great info, very useful.

Soon we will have our own forum to prepare both mods ( for MTW and RTW).

I will use some of your ides for MTW P&M TW edition as well.

I will need singular and plural forms of the names.

Please post them as soon as possible.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[Ranika]

Singular and plural are the same name for most of them, it's context specific. Cach in this period is alternatively 'man' or 'men', depending on how a sentence is worded. So, a Roahcach is a single Irish fusilier, but a unit of Roahcach is many fusiliers. However, there are some changes:

Taghhoba, plural; Taghhobalairdh, singular
Galloglaidh, plural; Galloglaidhael, singular
Oaghancochoran, plural; Cochorancach, singular (Singular is literally 'Cochoran man', a man of the Cochoran clan)
Hobilar, plural; Hobilairdh, singular; Hobilars, plural Anglicized
Kernbannal, plural (literally 'Soldier Band' in this period); Kern, singular; Kerns, plural Anglicized

Irish retainers were called Cómhalta (loosely 'foster-brother'), Caraid (literally 'friend'), or Oscar (loosely 'great champion'), in Irish, and used Irish names and titles, even when in French or Spanish service, so, if there were an Irish retainer ancillary, the proper name would be either Cómhalta or Caraid or Oscar.

[Eastside Character]

Hello the peoples of The Pike&Musket Mod for RTW!!!

That dude back again?
I haven't been here for a while and I suppose some of you might have wondered why haven't I sent you the promised files. Well, believe it or not i had it deleted because of the problems with some bugs and viruses. To say more, all of my modding resources have been deleted, all the work in progress, plus my own project that I was slowly but surely developing... After that I was mad and frustrated and didn't to go back to modding MTW. The fast I was working two jobs from some time was important too. Then I bought a copy of RTW and couldn't stop playing it! The game amazed me, it was all I was waiting for! Only lately I decided to try to mod it. I visited the Org to see what's up and how people are modding RTW. What I learned amazed me even more than the game itself... And so I started modding RTW rather than playing it, and I'm now redoing the map.

So now, in this long post, you are at the point where I'm about to say the things that really matter.

MAP
If you have no map done yet, I offer my help. I know how to change and I'm actually working on the map for some couple of days now. I have relocated and renamed some of the existing regions and made some new ones.
I would very much like to show you some screens, but unfortunatelly (however silly it sounds) I don't know how to make screenshots in RTW! Please, somebody if you could tell me I'd appreciate that a lot! I have a program for making shots, but it doesn't seem to work with RTW, I don't know why.

Also, if you would like me to make this map, I would need some info on certain regions in Europe that I'm not sure what provinces to place there, how to name them, what should be their capitals etc. So in general probably many people would be involved in the map-making process (there can be up to 200 regions so you don't have to worry about to few of them).

However, if you are already developing a campaign map, I think I could help in other ares too. I have some ideas I think could be discussed.

WONDERING
RTW gives different opportunities than MTW, but also has different restrictions. This means tech trees, unit stats, diplomacy and many other elements of the mod have to be not simply transfered from MTW to RTW, but rather have to be signifficantly modified to fit the new rules.

SENAT = PAPACY?
One of my ideas (though perhaps not the best one) is to leave the 3 allied states (called factions "X" later) and the Senate (as the Papacy). The 3 allied states would have to be catholic powers of the times, I would suggest Spain, Austria and Poland. Also the Senate could roleplay the Pope I think. The only problem is whether it is clear how it works. My theory is that the Senate (called "S" from this point) sends a request to attack a province it recognises as the weakest a faction (it's sending its request to) has acces to. So generally speaking "S" wants a faction "X" to attack its weakest neighboring region. If my theory is wrong and the regions appointed by "S" are somehow hardcoded, then there always have to be made map changes, relocating the hardcoded regions to desider paleces.
As for making Spain, Austria and Poland permanent allies (although as you know later they would be able to fight among themselves) is sensible because:
- Spain and Austria used to be ruled by the same Habsburg dynasty;
- the three mentioned countries were catholic (though there were peoples of other religions in Poland and HRE, the rulling classes and rulers were predominantly catholic);
- in the late XVII century the Papacy called for the creation of The Holy League that was meant to fight with the Ottomans. HRE and Poland, as well as some other countries were members of this league, moreover they were the most signifficant members of that organization and constantly fought with the Ottomans.

What do you think about it?

Well and about all those other things too...

And once again: ? HOW TO MAKE SCREEN SHOTS IN RTW ?

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Hey EC! Welcome back m8! ~:cheers:

To make screenshots go to the game menu, then in the keyboard configuration there is a key designed for making screenshots. Change it if you want. The images will appear at your RTW/tgas folder.

If for some reason that doesnt work just use the Print screen key, ALT+TAB out of the game, paste the image in an image editor and ALT+TAB back in.

About the Papacy:

I think that if Spain, HRE and Poland are allied, being as they are the biggest factions around at the time, they would crush to pieces anybody else as soon as the Pope points a finger on him (missions) because of the 3vs1 thing. (Remember in the game, when one roman faction declares war on someone all 4 of them declare war on that faction?)

So In the end invariably Spain, HRE and Poland will be THE 3 factions left with everybody else pretty much annihilated.

What I think could be a good Idea is to make the pope rule over the Knigh orders (credit here is to the Cidatel TW guys its their idea). Although I dont think we'll be concentrating on the knight orders as there are many more important factions....

On the other hand the Catholic League would allow for a much more challenging end-of-game period...

[Eastside Character]

Thanks for the information on screenshots SwordsMaster! I got it working at last!
Here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/polandRTWmap.jpg) you can see a sneak preview of what I'm doing with map. Not surprisingly I started with my homeland, though I've already made also some Italian, German and a few eastern regions.

About the Papacy:

I think that if Spain, HRE and Poland are allied, being as they are the biggest factions around at the time, they would crush to pieces anybody else as soon as the Pope points a finger on him (missions) because of the 3vs1 thing. (Remember in the game, when one roman faction declares war on someone all 4 of them declare war on that faction?)

So In the end invariably Spain, HRE and Poland will be THE 3 factions left with everybody else pretty much annihilated.

What I think could be a good Idea is to make the pope rule over the Knigh orders (credit here is to the Cidatel TW guys its their idea). Although I dont think we'll be concentrating on the knight orders as there are many more important factions....

On the other hand the Catholic League would allow for a much more challenging end-of-game period...

I know my idea is not perfect, but I'm only hoping we won't have to leave any factions not used in this RTW mod.

The fact that the 3 allies would be very strong could be counterwighted by many factors I think. First, the Ottomand would control about half of the map. Secondly, I believe that if properly balanced, countries such as France, Netherlands, German States, Russia, Sweden and so on, the 3 allied countries wouldn't be that powerfull. The Poles for instance would be surrounded mostly by hostile territories. The same can be said about the Spanish. The HRE seems to be in the relatively safest position, though the Ottoman presence in Hungary would be a major threat. Also there would be no rewards for papacy missions, and that money means a lot.

Anyway if not those 3 countries, then which ones?

Regards,
EC

[cegorach]

Good to see you EC !

I hope this time your troubles are over and we will see you to the very end of this work.

@Ranika

Very good. I will implement the names in the MTW edition and we will use this for RTW as well.

regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

P.S> EC please contact me by e-mail cegorach77@o2.pl

[Ranika]

If I can ask, what exactly are you going to be using of the information I gave you? I will try to dig up similar information, so as to be more effective in giving you useful things, rather than offering a wide array of things you won't use. What units and such do you plan to use/how will they be implemented/etc.?

[SwordsMaster]

Anyway if not those 3 countries, then which ones?


I was thinking... Is it a must to have 4 allied countries being one of them the Senate? Can't we have a Senate+1 country? This way the missions would still be triggered and there would still be civil war at the end (you vs the Senate).

We could make the Papacy allied with Spain as it actually happened, and leave everyone else to minding their own businesses.

See, the HRE has the greatest pools of mercenaries and quite good lands, Poland has the best in game cavalry and Spain the best infantry until the very end of the period. And that is historically correct. So we can't just take and give some uber-musketeers to Netherlands to keep the Spanish at bay. Although we could give the "neighbours" more money to start with.... Dunno...

And about the mission rewards.... I was thinking that maybe some diplomatic units as rewards could be in place (inquisitors and such)

a sneak preview of what I'm doing with map. Not surprisingly I started with my homeland, though I've already made also some Italian, German and a few eastern regions.

Great work EC, looks very promising! :2thumbsup:

[Speiz_Bankurt]

Cegorach,
I'm trying to get you some info but it is a little hard to find anything accurate and in depth. We'll get back to you soon.

[Eastside Character]

Well SwordsMaster you're probably right. I was only hoping we could use all the factions available.

Also I have a question that is not related to the topic here but I don't want to start another thread for such a minor (I hope) issue: how to change faction's colors?

Having the Spanish allied with Pope is not a bad idea.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have another idea tho: how about getting rid of Senate-Papacy and have the 3 allied countries as follows: England, Netherlands and Sweden (or some other protestant country). What do you think.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm just trying to discuss all possibilities before we decide not to use some factions, which, given the number of factions we can use in general, is a very important gameplay issue I think.

As far as the map is coming along, I'd need some good info on german provinces. Now I only have: Brandenburg, Electorate of Saxony, Silesia, Pomerania, Mecklenburg; I know there will have to be Bavaria, Hanover, Palatinate, but the rest is unclear to me. I need some good maps of that area. Can anyone help?

Regards,
EC

[eadingas]

to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)


to MERCENARIES
where Scottish mercenaries?
Cossacks too often acted in a role of the mercenaries in many armies of many countries

to Poland
Panc³rn³e kozaki?
Pospolitoe Rushenie ?


Ekhem... just popping in to note that we're NOT RUSSIANS :) Please don't use russian grammar endings ;)
Neither did we use any 'armored cossacks' whatever you might mean :)

"Pospolite Ruszenie" is not really a type of unit but type of recruitment - recruiting noblemen to fight. It can be simulated by a unit of simple light infantry armed with sabres, but there were all sorts of soldiers fighting in Pospolite Ruszenie, including heavy cavalry. There were two types of recruitment in Poland: Royal Army - better equipped and trained, but very expensive, and Pospolite Ruszenie - volunteers, cheap and poor. Plus some ethnic mercenaries, like Tatars and Cossacks, and king's mercenaries brought from abroad - Hungarian and German infantry.

General Bodyguards should be dragoon-type cavalry, called Rajtar (Ritter). They were very rare in this time, and only in royal army. Armored with two pistols. There were also some arquebusiers and musketeers, but only as experiment. Another experimental unit were 'polish arquebusiers' - sort of early Self-Propelled Artillery ;) - heavily armored riders carrying all sorts of heavy firearms - for example, four pistols, musket and rusznica per one rider.
Remember that polish army relies almost solely on heavy and auxilia cavalry... and at the time, it was without, a doubt the best, cavalry in Europe. But the infantry was a laugh.

As for the 'Catholic League' alliance - NOT a good idea. Not for that period. Not with Poland in it. We took no part in the religious wars, and there were times we were even allied with Turkey...

Cheers.

[Eastside Character]

As for the 'Catholic League' alliance - NOT a good idea. Not for that period. Not with Poland in it. We took no part in the religious wars, and there were times we were even allied with Turkey...


Yes, I've already realised my "Catholic League" idea was not a good one. And speaking "we" who do you have in mind? The Polish?

As for Pospolite Ruszenie, I think that "Szlachta" unit is enough to resemble it.

One more thing to all the people on the team: don't you think this Mod could use a separate sub-forum here at the Org? Just as other big projects? I think it would make things easier, especially as more and more people are being involved in it. Cegorach and others, what do you think?

Regards,
EC

[WarHawk]

You forgot Prussia as a faction.

[eadingas]

Why not make Rome = HRE? With Austria, Czechy, Saxonia and Brandenburgia/Prussy. Then you could have 30-years war as Civil War.

[cegorach]

@Eadingas

I am really well informed when it comes to the armies of that time - see P&M TW for MTW. Thank you.

@EC

We will have our own forum and webside, so subforum isn't really necessary.

regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[eadingas]

Cegorach: Yeah, I noticed that after I posted. I edited out most of my remarks after that :)

[Eastside Character]

Hello everyone!

I'm adding more and more regions to the map, but I still have a problem with Germany. The provinces I added since you saw the polish screens are:
- name of a province (settlement)
---------------------------------
- Electorate of Hanover (Hanover)
- East Friesland (Bremen)
- Mecklenburg (Lubeck)
- Bavaria (Munich)
- Bohemia (Prague)
- Moravia (Brno)
- Bishopric of Liege (Liege)
- Netherlands (Amsterdam)
- Brabant (Brussels)
- Flanders (Ghent)
- Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
- Switzerland (Bern)
- Austria (Vienna)
- Royal Hungary (Presburg)
(if any of the above names are incorrect or you know any alternative names you think suit better, post here)

I know Netherlands should be divided but I don't know how exactly? Also I have a problem to decide what should be other german regions. If anyone could post a useful link to some good map, please do so.

Also to anyone: we can have up to 200 regions maximum, so we can brainstorm here what provinces should be included. I think we can be all very glad there can be so many regions, it don't really have to be 200 of them tho. Can be less. Anyway if anyone has any ideas about what regions should be included, don't hesitate to post it here.

Oh, almost forgot, have there been made any decisions about which RTW faction slots will the P&M factions use? Or can we still discuss it?

Regards,
EC

[WarHawk]

Hello everyone!

I'm adding more and more regions to the map, but I still have a problem with Germany. The provinces I added since you saw the polish screens are:
- name of a province (settlement)
---------------------------------
- Electorate of Hanover (Hanover)
- East Friesland (Bremen)
- Mecklenburg (Lubeck)
- Bavaria (Munich)
- Bohemia (Prague)
- Moravia (Brno)
- Bishopric of Liege (Liege)
- Netherlands (Amsterdam)
- Brabant (Brussels)
- Flanders (Ghent)
- Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
- Switzerland (Bern)
- Austria (Vienna)
- Royal Hungary (Pesbourg)
(if any of the above names are incorrect or you know any alternative names you think suit better, post here)

I know Netherlands should be divided but I don't know how exactly? Also I have a problem to decide what should be other german regions. If anyone could post a useful link to some good map, please do so.

Also to anyone: we can have up to 200 regions maximum, so we can brainstorm here what provinces should be included. I think we can be all very glad there can be so many regions, it don't really have to be 200 of them tho. Can be less. Anyway if anyone has any ideas about what regions should be included, don't hesitate to post it here.

Oh, almost forgot, have there been made any decisions about which RTW faction slots will the P&M factions use? Or can we still discuss it?

Regards,
EC


Quick google search:

http://maps.library.umass.edu/raster/other_historical/images/bos_school/prussia.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/british_dominions_yearbook/prussia_map4_1815.jpg

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/prussia1440-1866.jpg

[Eastside Character]

These maps are from a later period...

[WarHawk]

These maps are from a later period...
Are they? :o Sorry, I must not be familiar with that period then. :embarassed:

[eadingas]

How about dividing Helvetia in three parts - french, german and italian-speaking. This way Swiss have better chance of defending themselves.

[Eastside Character]

Well eadingas, I'm not sure if there even will be a Swiss faction (as we have that nasty 21f limit). Besides dividing Switzerland is a bit problematic - most of it are high mountains and there isn't much space for settlements, roads etc.

Last added:
Lombardy (Milan)
Tuscany (Florence)
Savoy (Turin)
Liguria (Genoa)
Transylvania (Nagyszeben)
Wurtemberg (Stuttgart)
Franche Comte (Besancon)
Venezzo (Venice)
Corsica (???)

red font indicates I'm not sure if the name is correct

I was thinking about the 3 allied factions again... I came up with the Dutch, English and ... Hungarians (all 3 protestant). There would be no Senate/Pope thingy, the Dutch and the English would cooperate, as they really did, and the Hungarians would be away enough that it would only be a formal issue that they'd be allied with the other two. Besides the Dutch fought against the Spanish, and as I remember the English didn't like the Spaniards either (Spanish Armada Defiance). What do you think people? Any flaws of this idea? I think we must use those 3 allied factions somehow, the only question would be which factions should it be.

Regards,
EC

[wilpuri]

Are you sure the Hungarians were protestant back then? Most of Hungarians are Catholic in modern times at least.

[Eastside Character]

I'm not sure. But well, if you don't like Hungarians then the 3rd protestant faction could be Brandenburg or Sweden perhaps. And I don't think the Alliance England-Netherlands-Sweden would dominate the game. Out of these three, Sweden would probably be the most powerfull. The Dutch, a small faction in conflict with the Spanish Empire, would be the weakest.
English would be a kind of a medium strenght faction.

Regards,
EC

[Eastside Character]

Another idea that just popped into my mind is an alliance Turkey-Crimean Tatars-Moldavia, as it really was. The Ottoman Empire had Crimea and Moldavia as vassal states, but they could have their own rulers, armies etc. In returned Sultan had the right to use his vassals' armies whenever he wished. However it happened sometimes the vassals denied to give their armies under Sultan's command. There were several such rebellions almost always leading to Turkish invasions. It aslo often happened that the vassals, formally obliged not to violate Turkish foreign policy, attacked countries connected with the Ottomans by treaties. Khans of Crimea were very often acting in that way, causing Turkey to be several times involved in conflicts it didn't wanted.

just ideas... :book:

Regards,
EC

[Dead Moroz]

Why not make Rome = HRE? With Austria, Czechy, Saxonia and Brandenburgia/Prussy. Then you could have 30-years war as Civil War.
Sounds good. I think it's the most logical and reasonable idea about "ex-Roman" system. Because HRE was like RTW's Romans: it consisted of semi-independent states under leadership of Emperor (Senate in RTW). Plus, real HRE represented itself as continuation of Roman Empire.

[SwordsMaster]

ok, looks like i missed a good bit over the weekend. I have to say EC came back with lots of energy! :2thumbsup:

As of the 3 factions: We need a "Senate" because otherwise the game will CTD (thats what Duke John came up with, look in the Sengoku forum) And I think the HRE+german states is a good idea.

Also the turkish alliance sounds like a good suggestion, It would somewhat limit turkey in the north but make it very challenging at the same time...

About the maps: one of them actually says "1440-1795" which kinda includes our timeframe.

Regards.
SM

[cegorach]

@Senat

I think that Senat should be used for the Pope,

The three auto-allied factions could be Spain, HRE Hapsburgs ( House of Austria) and the KNIGHTS of St.John. Why the third ?
Mainly because it was the last military order, important naval power and was in very good relations with Spain and HRE all this time. This way also the Ottomans should have more troubles with confronting the catholic powers in the sea.

So this way we would have 2-3 spare slots. Which factions should use these ?

I think that Scotland ( allied with France so quite important)or Saxony or Brandenburg, or other protestant german state.

@New units

I have selected new units for Cossacks and new unts available in Ireland only for the Catholic countries.

IRELAND

All units hide in long grass or even everywhere ( except cavalry);

Infantry------>

Omacach - elite melee infantry;

Enniskillen Fusiliers - elite musketeers, 'bulletproof vests';

Oaghancocharan - elite marksmen and ambush fighters;

Kernbannal - basic rebels, javelins;

Galloglaidh - axe wielders, elite melee unit;

Cavalry------>

Hobilars - good quality lancers with javelins;

Taghhoba - good quality mounted arquabusiers;


COSSACKS

Infantry---------->

Ukrainian Peasants - 'cannon fodder', numerous and cheap;#

Molodyki - young Cossacks, light pikes, 'cannon fodder';#

Zaporozhye - 'core' infantry, good musketeers;

Serdjuks - elite musketeers;#

Plastuny - Cossack foot scouts, hide everywhere, marksmen;#

Harakterniki - cossack legendary warriors, hide everywhere, hard to get;#

Cavalry-------->

Storozha - Cossack horse scouts, hide in long grass;#

Reyestrovie - basic cavalry, average quality;

Dzhura - cossack bodyguards, good quality cavalry;#

@Ranika

I implemented all above units for MTW edition of this mod. This version ( 0.7) should be ready very soon.

What do I need ?

First.
I think that some Irish heroes/villians should be also present in both editions of the mod, so maybe you could propose some ?
I need basic info ( where and when born/appeared) + ideas for command-piety-loyalty-acumen-dread for MTW and something similar for the RTW edition. One, most important vice/virtue is also required.

Second.
I made some ( 5 up to now) historical battles for the MTW edition of the mod and I am sure I will do the same for RTW mod in future. I believe I am pretty good in this, in fact some things I discovered on my own and now I am looking for interesting proposals for this kind of battles.

I would gladly prepare one of Irish battles for the MTW ( I am close to finishing entire 'Moscow' historical campaign for the MTW) of course IF I HAVE enough information.
What does it requires ?
1. a map of the battlefield ( I am preparing in-game battlemaps on my own if necessary using MTW editor),
2. info about the battle - fighting armies ( units, numbers, commanders, experience of the units, where to place them), weather and what waere targets of both ( or more) armies.

Battle conditions can vary.

Here is a list of these for the MTW - I am still not sure about the RTW, but it will change.
My discoveries are marked with @

Kill, capture or rout enemy forces;
Kill, capture or rout X number of enemies;
Kill or capture all/a number of enemy soldiers @;
Kill or capture enemy general/generals;
Kill, capture or rout enemy general/-s;
Capture an area with X number of soldiers for X time;
Protect an area;
Destroy objective/objectives;
Protect allied army @;
Protect an allied army until it reaches a marked area @;
Defeat the enemy without losing X number of soldiers @;
Defeat the enemy in X time;

It all can be combined in various ways e.g. 'Don't lose your general and protect the allied army for 30 minutes without losing to many soldiers. If the enemy kills too many allied soldiers you will lose.'

If you hae something interesting contact me cegorach77@o2.pl


@Speiz_Bankurt

Good, I am waiting.
BTW - did you try the MTW P&M TW ?



@EC

For the map. I strongly suggest changing the name of Great Poland's capital to Poznan. Posen isn't really accurate for this time.

Second. Please add another province 'the Wild Fields' cut from Kiev. This would be useful for the Cossack faction, which should start as a Polish protectorate.
Its capital should be Sich and its territory should protect, more or less, Kiev from the south.

I think there is no further reason to explain why should this be added.



@eadingas

'armoured Cossacks' are Polish 'Kozacy' cavalry, the ancestors of later 'Pancerni'.



My regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

[SwordsMaster]

I think that Senat should be used for the Pope,
The three auto-allied factions could be Spain, HRE Hapsburgs ( House of Austria) and the KNIGHTS of St.John. Why the third ?

How about the period with Spain and the HRE under the same king? (Charles V of HRE, Charles I of Spain)


Another rather aesthethic consideration: How are we going to manage the Family system in RTW?

I mean, in the early modern era, the oldest son would inherit in 90% of the situations, so no "pick your heir" mechanism is allowed.

I suggest changing the "Faction Heir" label for Crown Prince, and having ONLY 1 Crown prince (if that is possible), and the rest of them would be "High nobles", with title depending on the concrete region.

[Ranika]

I can only think of two particularly outstanding Irish commanders you may wish to use, mainly because they were both quite exceptional, one was a flat out pyschopath, and the other is regarded as saint in part of Munster.

There is Aedhan MacDomnall Ui Machoran, also called Aedhan daDiabhal (Aedhan the Devil). (1556-1612, born somewhere in Ulster, not known exactly, died when his brother cut his throat). He sold his lands in west Ulster to the English in secret, and forced his army, essentially, including his brother, into English service by proxy. His brother, Malachai, when he learned that Aedhan's intentions were driven by the English, cut his brother's throat while he was sleeping. Before this, however, Aedhan marched his soldiers into Connacht and attempted to capture the whole of the province. While he did quite well against the men of Connacht, his death cut his conquest short, and Malachai informed the men of Aedhan's treachery, they quickly disbanded thereafter.

Stats (share what is applicable for Rome, I know I'm missing stuff, but it'll take a lot of thought);
Command; 6 (Aedhan was a fairly skilled commander, but most of his driving force was the quality of his men)
Piety; 0 (Aedhan was quite publically an athiest)
Loyalty; 4 (Aedhan was clearly less than a loyal man)
Acumen; 8 (Aedhan was trained in accounting while in England when he was young, also when he probably picked up his English sympathies)
Dread; 8 (Aedhan was a psychopath who massacred entire villages)

Vice/Virtues; Anything to increase his dread, or lower his piety. He was a true, honest pyschopath who enjoyed watching people suffer, and his contempt for all things religious was quite extreme (he personally enjoyed burning churches and executing priests himself). Aedhan is little known now, quite purposely. The memory of Aedhan is horrible enough that Irish and English alike sort of attempted to erase him from their collective memories. Even the English, for who Aedhan worked, hated him. He was a truly disgusting, villanous human being, who attempted to commit genocide of the men of Connacht (whom he personally hated).


Then, there is Tyrone MacNiall Cochoran daGlúindubh (Tyrone the Black Knee) (1554-1654, born in Cashel, died of old age, on his 100th birthday, peacefully). Tyrone is a local saint in a small portion of Munster. "The Black Knee" (daGlúindubh), was a title give to those who were particularly religious. Tyrone was an actual fanatic. Born as a wealthy Irish aristocrat, Tyrone gave up all of his money to the poor, and joined a small militaristic monastary as a lay brother (as he wished to marry and have children). Upon hearing of a possible invasion from the English, he fled home to his clan, and organized them into a militia. Knowing their numbers would be insufficient against the invaders, he had them conduct clandestine actions, pirating weapons, armor, and supplies. He was the one to start the Oaghancocharan. When Tyrone died, he died quite suddenly, despite his being 100 years old (to the day). He told his youngest son Kian that he felt a bit tired, laid down and chatted with his son till he fell asleep and died.

Stats;
Command; 8 (Tyrone was a truly amazing commander, his faith and lingual skills inspired his men to fight, even in situations that were almost assured failure)
Piety; As much as possible (Tyrone was called 'more faithful than Patrick' by his contemporaries)
Loyalty; Likewise (Tyrone's faith and proto-patriotic feelings encouraged maximum devotion to his cause, and to anyone who supported it, his cause being a firmly Catholic Ireland)
Acumen; 6 (Tyrone was an aristocrat, and was raised to be an able mathematician)
Dread; 0 (Tyrone's kind demeanor toward prisoners and his enemies would make him almost totally lack any sense of dread. He was simply too nice)

Vice/Virtues; Anything to increase his faith, a province he's governing's zeal, increase his soldiers' morale, or provide bonuses to ambushing. For Rome, possibly a 'monk' ancillary of some type, he had a clerical monk, Brother Typhus, who served with him directly. Vices, anything that lowers dread by implying how nice of a man he is. Possibly something to lower diplomatic skills in Rome, considering that, while very nice, and very skilled at speaking, he could only speak Middle An Mhumain (Munster Irish) and Latin.


I can't think of any truly amazing battles in Ireland during this period, except one, led by Tyrone (the ambush at Ceanniasc). However, I don't know how to make maps for that, unless you mean, just some basic 'troop position' type thing like found in a history book.

And on Irish units, all should at least hide in tall grass, Oaghancocharan should be able to hide anywhere, they were quite proficient with camoflauging. Omacach, as well, should be able to hide anywhere. All should have 'Improved Hide In Forest', and possibly a bonus in snow (the Irish saw winter as an opportunity to attack a slightly weaker enemy, and they hardened themselves appropriately to make use of the tactic). None should be available to the English except Enniskillen Fusiliers (which the English did use).

[Ranika]

Also forgot, Kerns by the 16th century only carried one or two javelins on them, then used their modified lochaber axes as pikes.

[Eastside Character]

Some news on the map - I extended it more to the north, so that Faroe Islands and southern Finland are present on the map.
If you think we should have it extended to the north even more, let me know, and let me know why too.

@Cegorach

Changing Posen to Poznan is no problem, I just thought the name of that city in english is Posen.
As for "The Wild Fields", well I know you like that province a lot and no problem, I can do it. But still I don't understand your motives. That area was part of Kiev. Sich was merely what we could today call a "terrorist camp" (or at least Bush's administration would call it so). It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks. Besides, "The Wild Fields" extended further east up to Don river, and even further.
As a final remark I'd suggest naming this (nomen omen nonexistent officially) province not "The Wild Fields", which in my opinion sounds akward on the vast steppes of Ukraine, but rather give it its local name:
Zaporozhia.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

@EC

Sweden has to be included fully in the map. That means Sweden, Norway and some Finland, at least at the MTW level.

Although it would be gameplay-wise to open the possibility of land-invading Sweden by including the whole peninsula. That doesnt have to mean more provinces tho.

Zhaporozhye I think depicts better the ukrainian spelling. And the Sich was more of a concept than a physical place, I would call it Hortitsa (The name of an island on the Dniepr where a cossack fortress was located, in the modern-day city of Zaporozhye).

BTW, whats wrong with the drunk and crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks? I'm related to them ~;) ....Now that Im thinking, that might explain some of my tendencies..... ~:cheers:

[Dead Moroz]

It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks.
You... imperialistic chauvinist... :clown:

This was my suggestion for Eastern European provinces during MTW mod. Some most eastern regions should be corrected according to RTW realities, but the main idea is still the same.

http://img7.exs.cx/img7/3889/Map3.jpg

[SwordsMaster]

Dead moroz, just out of curiosity, where did you get that map from? It looks vaguely but intensely familiar...

[Dead Moroz]

Dead moroz, just out of curiosity, where did you get that map from? It looks vaguely but intensely familiar...
Bought in Amazon. ~:)

What did you mean in your question?

[SwordsMaster]

lol
~D

No, I mean if it comes from some game and-or webpage. It vaguely reminds me one of the Paradox games...

[eadingas]

What are the "Wild Field'' on this map supposed to be? Did Russians have their own Wild Fields, apart from those in Zaporozhe?

[Dead Moroz]

lol
~D

No, I mean if it comes from some game and-or webpage. It vaguely reminds me one of the Paradox games...
Actually it's the map we used discussing mod for MTW. I don't know where it from. Ask Alex Peters.

[Dead Moroz]

What are the "Wild Field'' on this map supposed to be? Did Russians have their own Wild Fields, apart from those in Zaporozhe?
I am surprised that Poles had their own "Wild Field" in Zaporozhye.

"Wild Field" (or "Dikoe Pole" in Russian) was huge steppe territory from Danube to Northern Kazakhstan or even further. So both these Polish and Russian "Wield Fields" were parts of one region indeed. Really it was "no man's land".

[Ellesthyan]

EC, I'd advice you to divide the Netherlands, depending on how many provinces you can spare them, like I've shown in the picture.

My reasoning behind them are this:
-Holland is quite logical. It depicts the most important province(s) of the republic, and was in times of war the part that could be defended by the waterline. Capital Amsterdam.. Duh.

-Generaliteitslanden is the name for the lands that were not part of the founding 7 provinces. They have been conquered by Maurits and Frederik-Hendrik in the later part of the war. Capital Maastricht; the gap between the southern and the northern parts is a little awkward. You might opt for recreating the modern borders, as it's not that much off.

- de Provincie is a name used in Holland for the "backward" east of the Netherlands. They were in power far behind Holland, and have been the battleground for many wars. Capital Groningen; although Utrecht is a well known and important city, Groningen was essentially the fortress of the north provinces and therefore strategically seen more important.

With an extra province to spare, the division of the low lands when the duke of Parma was the commander of the Spanish forces can be recreated. The duke had been able to retake the east part from the republic. Under able generals, the Netherlands was able to capture it city by city. It also allows the general difficulty with defeating the Netherlands from the east to be represented. In this scenario Utrecht is for obvious reasons the capital of the middle part.
http://www.geocities.com/ellesthyan/NederlandPMmod.bmp

[Count, tHe dEmEnToR]

You guys don't bother reading the posts on the original thread anymore?

I made a 3 frame page: A menu, news and links, but yeah, i agree, i forgot the links section. There's a beta avaiable at this URL: http://pwp.netcabo.pt/the_dementor/pm/index.htm
Well my email: the_dementor@hotmail.com See if you like the color scheme and so on...

About the short url, how will it be? Is the team willing to pay for a .com or .pl or .org or .net? Or are we just going to use free short url such as .cjb.net or .tk?

Now about the song i was composing, well, i still haven't wroten it down, but it i've already planned it, maybe in a few weeks ill have it completly ready.

One thing i forgot on the last post: I need a 967x102 banner of the mod please, or i can just do one myself, but i'll take alot of time...
As you noticed, the banner is quite large, the reason is that i planned the website for high resolutions (1024x768 and above).



The background pic is provisory, im waiting for cegorach to send me the original.

[Eastside Character]

Count, tHe dEmEnToR, I'm expecting to make some map screens, should I send them to you so you can uplad them to the page? Or should I still use my own space for now?

SwordsMaster, I extended map in the north to a MTW-extent. ~;) I will post some screens soon, I only want to get some few more regions done before.

Ellesthyan, thanks for the info. Still I have a question; is Rotterdam capital of Zeeland or not? And one more thing, Maastricht cannot be placed on such a small territory, will have to move in a bit to the north. I'll show what I mean very soon.

Regards,
EC

[Count, tHe dEmEnToR]

Well, that page is just a template. I wanted to include the other screens aswell, i was going to ask cegorach if he could get me all the previous mtw screens in one pack, but if you need a ftp space, yea you can send me.

Cheers, ~:cheers:

[Dead Moroz]

I begin to think that the idea about Turkish alliance as successor of "Senate system" would be cool. ~:cheers:

How about poll to finally decide this question?

[Ellesthyan]

Ellesthyan, thanks for the info. Still I have a question; is Rotterdam capital of Zeeland or not? And one more thing, Maastricht cannot be placed on such a small territory, will have to move in a bit to the north. I'll show what I mean very soon.

Ah, no. Rotterdam was in that time not much more than a little fishers village. Besides, it is not even part of Zeeland, nor has it ever been. The Capital of Zeeland is a little difficult to find, but I assume that it's either Vlissingen (or Flushing in English) or Zierikzee. The latter was besieged by one of the Spanish commanders and taken; however it revolted not too long afterwards. The former is the most important port in the province, but not as well fortified as Zierikzee.
Maastricht can be replaced by Breda in the northern part with not too much trouble. I like Maastricht better though.

[cegorach]

TIMEFRAME

For those who do not now P&M TW for MTW I announce that the timeframe of this mod is between 1480 and 1700. The second period should start around 1572 in my opinion allowing more 'reformed' units.



@Ranika

"Aedhan MacDomnall Ui Machoran, also called Aedhan daDiabhal
Command; 6 (Aedhan was a fairly skilled commander, but most of his driving force was the quality of his men)
Piety; 0 (Aedhan was quite publically an athiest)
Loyalty; 4 (Aedhan was clearly less than a loyal man)
Acumen; 8 (Aedhan was trained in accounting while in England when he was young, also when he probably picked up his English sympathies)
Dread; 8 (Aedhan was a psychopath who massacred entire villages)"

For the only one vice he can get in the MTW I will use

["killer3desc"]
{"His habit of torturing and killing has become public knowledge. He is feared and hated because of it. +5 Valour, +4 Dread, -5 Piety. "}

Should be all right, I believe.


"Tyrone MacNiall Cochoran daGlúindubh
Command; 8 (Tyrone was a truly amazing commander, his faith and lingual skills inspired his men to fight, even in situations that were almost assured failure)
Piety; As much as possible (Tyrone was called 'more faithful than Patrick' by his contemporaries)
Loyalty; Likewise (Tyrone's faith and proto-patriotic feelings encouraged maximum devotion to his cause, and to anyone who supported it, his cause being a firmly Catholic Ireland)
Acumen; 6 (Tyrone was an aristocrat, and was raised to be an able mathematician)
Dread; 0 (Tyrone's kind demeanor toward prisoners and his enemies would make him almost totally lack any sense of dread. He was simply too nice)"

The only virtue he will get is

["chivalrous3desc"]
{"This man's adherence to the code of chivalry is the very stuff of legend, an inspiration to troubadours and storytellers! +3 Morale, -3 Dread"}

OR

"paranoidd3desc"]
{"He has repented his sins and claims to be washed in the blood of the Lamb of God. He has taken a vow of personal poverty and donated his wealth to the Church. The Inquisition will find him hard to fault now. -6 dread, +6 piety"}

WHICH one is better ?

I will also use the stats you have propose, even though any non-royal commanders will not get command higher than 6 - they can usually be promoted with various office titles, but because they are rather rebels ( or maybe the first one should be in English heroe list ?) or independent characters I think they can be as good as you have proposed. If you think that 'this Devil' sgould be in english list his command will be decreased by 2 points.



"I can't think of any truly amazing battles in Ireland during this period, except one, led by Tyrone (the ambush at Ceanniasc). However, I don't know how to make maps for that, unless you mean, just some basic 'troop position' type thing like found in a history book."

This kind of map should be enough, I can re-create it using MTW editor.
You can always prepare something using anykind of graphic software ( even Windows Paint is enough) as long as it is good enough to place troops and other objects using it.

"And on Irish units, all should at least hide in tall grass, Oaghancocharan should be able to hide anywhere, they were quite proficient with camoflauging. None should be available to the English except Enniskillen Fusiliers (which the English did use)."

They will be. In MTW all these units will hide everywhere ( maybe except the Fusilers).

"Also forgot, Kerns by the 16th century only carried one or two javelins on them, then used their modified lochaber axes as pikes."

Thay already have javelins, I have some data about the Irish military at that time, but the info about these axes is very important - they will get bonuses fighting cavalry.

Another thing.
In the MTW campaign every faction will get at least 9 office titles ( up to 10). I have no idea now if I add Ireland for the MTW edition of this mod ( not too soon, at least), still please propose some ( including at least 1 religious title) I will have these placed in my data resources for future, possible use.

@EC

"As for "The Wild Fields", well I know you like that province a lot and no problem, I can do it. But still I don't understand your motives. That area was part of Kiev. Sich was merely what we could today call a "terrorist camp" (or at least Bush's administration would call it so). It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks."

Honestly I was going to travel to Kiev to support the Ukrainian opposition manifestations only to realise that my passport is invalid ( I don't need it in the EU) and it takes about one month to get a new one, damn ! Still it has nothing in common with this province.
I believe that it is really necessary, even though it wasn't a town, but was important enough to be added as one of these. I want the Cossack faction in the mod and they will need one province.
Kiev is not for them, so they need something else.
In fact even though Sich was a warrior camp ( or camps, because there were several of these) and not much more WE WILL NEED IT.
It should be called Sich, because it was known by this name. No 'Hortitsa', please - noone will recognise its meaning, except few of us.


The map should include some kind of 'landbridge' from Finland to Sweden, but nothing more than minimum.

BTW I am sending you the MTW map.

@Dead Moroz

"This was my suggestion for Eastern European provinces during MTW mod. Some most eastern regions should be corrected according to RTW realities, but the main idea is still the same."

Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

[cegorach]

@Count, tHe dEmEnToR

This will take some time, I am not sure I have this at all it was AlexPeters work.

Anyway I will inform you soon.. :bow:

[Ranika]

I'll make a map for the ambush at Ceanniasc as soon as I can, and send it to you, it should be simple. As an aside, the town's name, Ceanniasc, means 'Fish's Head'. I always found that funny, considering the town really did do anything with fish.

Aedhan, maybe make him an English hero, since he WAS working for the English, not the Irish. However, my sticking point on that is, he used an Irish army, with Irish troops and such, not English troops. The Vice sounds perfect for him.

I'd say the second virtue for Tyrone, that seems to fit him to a T. Even if Tyrone were in a faction (like, as said, a possible, but probably far off indepedent Irish faction), he'd technically be a prince. While he joined a monastary and such, he was prepared to take the throne of Munster if necessary. While not directly from the bloodline of the current king, Irish Ruire were elected, not usually inherited.

If the Irish were made a faction, just to get this out of the way right quick, could that be simulated? Like, have them operate like the HRE. When the king dies, with no heirs, a new king is elected? In reality, whenever the ruire died, they'd elect a king, regardless of any children he had, but usually it'd be one of his sons, nephews, siblings, or first-to-second cousins.

Office Titles;
Ardeaspag tu Armagh (Archbishop of Armagh, where the cathedral in which Saint Patrick's body is interred is, as well as numerous holy relics that were removed during the Victorian conquests; during this period, he also had to command a defense force for the cathedral and the town, and should maybe get +1 to command)

Taoiseach (Chosen One, the oldest title still in use in Irish government, the Taoiseach was originally in charge of overseeing the elections of the Ri, and was a foreign affairs advisor)

Ceannasaí Faolcú (Wolf Champion, in charge of organizing all clan armies into cognizant combat units, this job required more mathematical skills than it did command skills, as he actually commanded very little, he more crunched numbers to organize the men)

Comhairleoir duiRuire (Advisor to the King, technically, he was less of an advisor, and more of a stenographer. His duty was to copy down all important events in the king's life, including things said that the 'advisor' found interesting or important, to ensure the king's legacy. However, they were also mathematicians and trained commanders, who would lead armies for the king if needed)

Claíomh duIompróir (Bearer of the Sword, the king's personal champion. This man was expected to be the greatest single warrior in Ireland, and also the greatest war leader, aside from the king {who was always expected to be the best, it's part of how they were elected})

Aochaith Peaca (another religious title, One Who Eats Sin, like an Irish grand inquisitor, except his duty was to rally people to fight against Protestants, and instead of personally punishing heretics {there was no legal execution in Ireland for civilians, no matter the crime, though soldiers, including spies and such, would be executed}, he encouraged the populace to do it themselves)

Brehonmór (Great Judge, all of the Brehons (Judges) in Ireland answered to him. He was responsible for resolving high level legal disputes, such as the Ruire deciding to sue one another over some percieved slight, his job was to ensure they did not come to war over it, and resolved it peacefully)

Madra duiRuire (Dog of the King, while it may sound derogatory in English, this was a huge compliment to be given this title. It's purely ceremonial, but it did provide the recipient with many servants to assist them in running their affairs, possible acumen increase?)

Madra Aimiréal (Dog Admiral, essentially a 'Grand Admiral', the head of not only all naval operations, but spies, assassins, and other clandestine operations)

[Dead Moroz]

Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.
Disagree. Lithuania shouldn't be that huge region it was in MTW and in EC's map. You confuse state and national borders. Lithuanians dwelled in small territory, close to present day territory of Lithuania. But they had large state - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia - which consisted of many small regions. It was the big mistake that there was only one big region of Lithuania in MTW. Let's not continue this bad tradition!

Lithuania MUST be split into at least 3 regions:

- Lithuania (national territory of Lithuanians);
- Polotsk (former Russian principality of Polotsk; very important town in conflicts between Russia and Polish-Lithuanian state);
- Belarus (national territory of former Kievan Rus Slavs).

There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.

[Eastside Character]

I agree 100% with you Dead Moroz. Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a name of a state, which was further split into many Voivodships. I think the split in 3 is fair. Besides RTW is quite a bit different from MTW the way an opponent can invade your province. It can go straight to your capital, not paying much attention to other regions it passes. And controlling the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as a whole was never that easy for a conqueror. It's simply too vast a territory to be easily subdued.

There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.
There is Ruthenia, as I believe Galicia is a bit older name and refers to slightly different territory (not only Ruthenia but also large part of Lesser Poland with Krakow).

Regards,
EC

[cegorach]

SENAT

I believe we should use it and all three auto-allied factions slots as efficient as possible, so it means that ALL THESE SLOTS ( senat + 3 factions) should be used.
We want as many factions as possible, I believe.

It means that it SOULDN'T BE Ottomans + Tatars + Moldavia, but either HRE or Catholic states ideas.

I believe that Spain + Hapsburgs + the Knights + Pope is better than
HRE ( Hapsburgs + Saxony + Brandenburg or similar), because actually very many of the wars fought at that time were between the countries of HRE and this way we will have HRE expanding not fighting numerous 'cvil wars' as it was in reality.


Cegorach ~;)

[SwordsMaster]

Another general consideration about France:

To reflect huguenot unrest an so on, we should allow in the Huguenot provinces some sort of building that adds up greatly to the cultural penalty and thus to unrest.

Alternatively what we could do is make a Huguenot France as a country vassal of the normal France and tie the war to some building construction event (say a big cathedral or something).

Just brainstorming tho, we have to address the issue I believe and that was the first thing that came into mind...

[SwordsMaster]

cegorach, check this (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=642126#post642126)
out. It might come handy as it allows us to specify VERY clearly the conditions under which to build a unit. And how to make them region-specific and so on.

[Eastside Character]

MAP NEWS

I've been working on a map lately, added some regions here in there. In The Netherlands, Eastern Europe, Germany, and a couple more here and there. Screens presenting there regions will be soon. In the meantime, you can see screens showing what I'm doing with the added Northern Europe (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/mapUpdate01.html). I will get in further north, as some of you here advised, so that it will be possible to go from Sweden to Finland on foot.

I have an idea: I've been reading that thread about the triple alliance and the Senate thingy, and I think I have to change my mind. I'm saying it here as I have some other conclusions connected with it. I think the option with the Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States is a good one. I think it's better to have one faction representing states such as Saxony, Brandenburg, Bavaria etc. similarly to (Greek Cities in RTW), than to use some other faction slots for many one-province factions. There also should de some few strong rebel type regions in Reich.

As Cegorach previously mentioned, we cannot afford to leave even one faction slot empty, and the main flaw of the muslim idea is I think that such alliance would not make much difference in the game as only the Ottomans would be a challenge for their foes. While when attacking some weak german state you would not only be in troubles with the Emperor and the local ruler, but aslo with Pope and Spanish Habsburgs. Pretty realistic I'd say.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

Good work! the map looks quite satisfying.

And you might have a point about the Alliance. Lets see what other say. I like the idea. Altho that removes the irony of having a "muslim" "papacy". Ah well....

[Ranika]

In retrospect, Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran would be a good 'heroic' Irish commander. After assassinating his treasonous brother Aedhan, he led the defense of the Aran Islands and the Burren for many years, successfully defeating numerous uprisings, and English invasions, with vastly inferior forces and outdated weaponry and armor for much of that time, until the Spanish and French both gave him a large gift of rifles and swords (crafted in the Irish style, showing an amount of appreciation and respect for him) for his men.

Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran, (1564 - 1645, he actually sort of disappeared, he wandered off into the hills singing and no one saw him again)
Command; 5 (Malachai was a decent quality commander, but it was other attributes that made him a good leader)
Piety; 7 (Malachai was a deeply religious man, one of the reasons he grew to dislike his brother)
Loyalty; 4 (Malachai loved Ireland dearly, enough that it pushed him over the edge to learn that his brother was an English pawn)
Acumen; 5 (Malachai was a good mathematician, but not nearly as much as his brother, and he refused to use non-Irish systems of measurement for anything, so trade was badly slowed due to having to work things through the very...very unique 'Gaelan' system of measurements)
Dread; 4 (Much like Aedhan, Malachai was a terrifying figure, tall and imposing, and near merciless in the destruction of his enemies on the field, but was a truly honorable man to his prisoners, treating them well, and always doing his best to offer their master's reasonable ransoms)

Vice/Virtue;
chivalrous3; This should do the trick.

[eadingas]

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

[SwordsMaster]

Well, cegorach said that the papacy would be in for sure, so we give them some power.

And besides the rewards for accomplished missions can be changed I believe, so I dont see the problem

[Eastside Character]

" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

As for the Pope, he doesn't have to be granting anything, as we can prevent him from giving any valuable gifts. The offices can also be altered so they won't change the gameplay at all.
I agree Pope had no real power then, but if I have to choose Pope or Reichstag, its the first one.
It's so because as I said before I think it's not quite sensible to make a couple of one-faction states with no chances of survival in conflict with some of their major neighbors. I really think it's much better to have a collective faction representing allied states, or states with common goals, foes, friends. If (because I myself don't know much about German history) Brandenburg and Saxony happened to be enemies at some point in the past, then one of them will have to be made rebel and the other would go to the Electoral States. I know it's kinda unfair for the faction which would be made rebel, but you have to remember we have only 21 faction slots. Adding one more german faction complicates the whole faction assigning situation quite a bit.

I don't remember if there were already decisions been made as to what are the possible factions here, as I think for RTW we have to rework the list a bit. So a list of factions I think are possible:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.
27. Knights Hospitallers

So these are my ideas, what are yours?
I'm hoping we can work this out together. It would be a step forward if we decided about faction-arrangement.

And I aslo want to say that I'm not sure if my ideas are always good, but I'm doing it so that we can have a point to discuss and come to some conclusions profitable for this mod.

Regards,
EC

[SwordsMaster]

25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)

Fez maybe? The problem with that one is that despite the fact I researched it a good bit during the summer, I couldnt find any info before the XIX cent at all. And even those I couldnt read coz it was written in whatever Fez language is.

[eadingas]

09. The Papacy
15. Republic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.

Hmm, wouldn't that make a better Senate+Rome set, BTW?
And the Senate faction will always be 'wasted'. It's almost unplayable, only playable if you are willing to fight against the hard-coded disabilities this factions has... it's single-province in the vanilla game and it works well - as long as it's surrounded by allies (which Imperial Court or Reichstag - or Pope+Italians - would be)
And, as much as I like Ukraine and the Cossacks, should they get their own faction for the time period of this mod?... should be strong rebels... the Cossacks always rebelled and fought for independence, but were always too weak to grant it for themselves. There was never a 'free Ukraine' state except for short periods of bloody-quelled insurgencies...so it would be a bit of wishful thinking to give them that independence in the game...

[SwordsMaster]

Sorry for Spamming,

Heres my suggestion working on ECs list which Im quite happy with.

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks (make rebel)
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland (make rebel as well, with a BIG garrison army and low unrest)
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa (make rebel)
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name) (make rebel)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc. (either include with the POPE or rebel)
27. Knights Hospitallers

and a few more coz we are still over the top

[eadingas]

Leave out Knights (talk about a weak, single-province state... but can rebels build fleet?) and Moldava (they never expanded on their own, only as protectorates of Turkey or Poland, so making them rebels is enough) and you're left with 20. Replace Crimeans (same thing as with Moldava - since 1478 they were never independent) with Saxony.

[SwordsMaster]

Sounds good to me, althoug I have to say I was expecting to see some vassal-relationship between Turkey-Crimea or Turkey-Moldavia. Ah, well...

On another note, remember the post about huguenotes I wrote?
I just thought that if we make a separate huguenote state (which I dont really think possible but hey!) we could make them vassals of both England and France so when war between England and France starts they have to choose.

[eadingas]

If we didn't have the limit, Moldavia and Crimea would be a fine addition, but since we have to choose, I'm pretty sure they have to go. Crimea acted sometimes like a sovereign nation, but as soon as the Khan's actions started to go against Sultan's will, he was coming to Crimea, removing him and put another ruler without even as much as a symbolic fight. I don't think there is a way to represent this relation in game engine other than simply having Crimea as part of Ottomans, but maybe with separate units and buildings for that region?
As for the Huguenots... it would be fun to have them... but don't they appear too late in game to have their own faction from the beginning? It will be very hard to represent Reformation with the game engine as it is... other than through buildings and traits, we have no way of inducing rebels at a certain point in the game and who would want to build a building that gives him increased unrest?
(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod, or to something else?)
(also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

[SwordsMaster]

(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod

I believe so, yes.

I think that, as we cant have them as a faction, we could just have a "Huguenot" hidden resource that would add up to unrest say +20, and besides make them very rebellious provinces.

also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

~D Yeah, all i know about them comes from French and Irish sources, so.... Im inconsciously biased.

[Eastside Character]

The Crimean Khanate will have to be in. It's not merely a one province faction like Saxony for that matter, but a three province state. It played a signifficant role in the wars of Russia, Poland and sometimes Turkey. Besides their army was very specific and original (they were the followers of the Golden Horde and the Mongol Empire) what cannot be said of Saxon army. If there are Cossacks included as a separate faction, and there is a discussion about Hugenots, I sincerely believe there can be no discussion whether or not to include Tatars. They could be a turkish protectorate tho. Just as the Cossacks are going to be a polish protectorate.

I'm not saying Saxony has to go, but all in all it was signifficantly less important than the Crimean Khanate.

I was wondering if Portugal has to be in - it was most of the time under spanish control. And I too think the Hospitallers should not be included, they were just insignifficant minor faction, and they could only occupy Rhodes as Malta is too small to make it a region in its own rights.

Moldavia is not a must as well, I agree it can be made rebel.

Well I just looked at SwordsMasters list and have to say I agree with his suggestions about Cossacks, Genoa, Switzerland, so we would be left with:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Repubic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transilvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony (ah well or any other suggestion: perhaps some collective italian faction like Electoral States is Germany, or any other)
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

And SwordsMaster, I don't consider this a spam - we're trying to work out a sensible and reasonable compromise here, hence we have to have a clear situation. A list makes things clear.

Regards,
EC

[eadingas]

Ah! somehow I didn't notice Portugal on the list. You're right, Portugal doesn't have to be a faction, not in a game that concerns only Europe. Even as independent, it NEVER expanded or fought any wars in Europe or anything... this is why it had to expand through colonies. It can start as rebel - the Spanish didn't 'conquer' it (in game terms) until 1580. So we can have Crimea back this way.

[SwordsMaster]

oh, well, but I somehow consider Portugal more important than Saxony, as it was very closely linked to Spain in the diplomatic sense, marriages, treaties, civil wars, etc, but I guess if we need that free slot we could just give them a strong garrison and leave them rebel.

@EC, I meant Spamming as I poste 2 post with some 5 min difference in between.

[Eastside Character]

The list I last posted makes it possible for both Portugal and Saxony to be in.

There are ofcourse other possibilities. I think if Cegorach reads this what we're now discussing, he wont like getting rid of Coss