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cegorach
10-31-2004, 13:11
Although we still don't know much about RTW engine, I believe we can start our new thread about implementing our mod using RTW ( or future MTW 2) engine.

As far as I know it is possible to have about 300 units in RTW. If it is true this means we can add at least 30 additional units to our list in the XVI-XVII mod on MTW engine.

That is very good I believe.

Soon I will add some proposals for the new units.

For now, that is all.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:cheers:

SwordsMaster
11-01-2004, 20:08
I was just wondering how long would it take for You to announce this ~;)
:charge:

Sad Ronin
11-18-2004, 10:59
Polish Winged Hussar (early)
http://img121.exs.cx/img121/5354/WingHussars.th.jpg (http://img121.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img121&image=WingHussars.jpg)

cegorach
11-18-2004, 11:09
Brilliant !!! :bow:

Marvellous !!! :charge:

Amazing !!! ~:cheers:


.... Ok I am all right now.

For early Hussars remove the wimgs, for late please eliminate the shield, the rest is perfect to me !!! ~D

Sad Ronin
11-18-2004, 11:56
Okay

I ask a pardon for absence of animal fur on shoulders...))
There was no place on texture... Though if remove wings to early (though I met the images with wings, but some other kind) - that is possible I shall add fur of leopard. can then early to make with sabres? And late - with pikes?

Still I would like hear the comment concerning cosssacks. You have received my letter?

SwordsMaster
11-18-2004, 13:54
wow! I've got to say that looks very promising ~:cheers:

BTW, Sad Ronin, my aunt lives in Odessa.

cegorach
11-19-2004, 11:04
So here is the unit list - it is from P&M TW for the MTW, so more units can be added as well.

The names are in national languages, some units will be also available as mercenaries, regional troops or for several factions.
Units unique for one faction only are marked with #


FACTIONS AVAILABLE - the rest will be rebels and their units will be available as regional units for every/several factions untill it will be possible to add more ( an addon to the RTW ???).

ENGLAND
HUNGARY
VENICE
SWITZERLAND
THE KNIGHTS
DANEMARK
SPAIN
CRIMEAN KHANATE
HAPSBURG - AUSTRIA, HRE
THE NETHERLANDS
FRANCE
SWEDEN
PORTUGAL
COSSACKS
POLAND
RUSSIA
THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

FOR MANY FACTIONS or all of them ( cultures)
Artillery:
Organ Gun,
Mortar,
Demi-Culverin,
Culverin Crew,
Mercenary Cannon,
Serpentine,
Siege Cannon,

Infantry:
Archers,
Urban Militia,
Town Militia,
Pavisiers,
Pavise Arbalesters,
Arquebusiers,

Muslim Feudal Levy - only Muslim factions ( except Tatars), a typical 'cannon fodder',

Wagon Infantry - hard to create, maybe a form of field fortifications.

Cavalry:
General - different for different cultures,
Lancers - basic heavy cavalry from late Medieval,
Demi-Lancers - for western factions,
Mounted Crossbowmen,
Eastern Lancers - lighter than western lancers,
Mounted Arquebusiers,

ADVANCED:
Line Infantry,
Grenadiers,
Regimental Cannons,

DISMOUNTED CAVALRY - if possible
Nobles - several eastern european cavalry units,

Dismounted armoured cavalry - eastern european and ottoman heavier cavalry,

Knights - or rather sword & buckler - several western european cavalry units shpuld dismount into them, also available as an infantry unit for some factions ( e.g. the Knights);

Dismounted Cavalry - modern, western cavalry units will dismount into this;

REBELS
Fanatics,
Rebel Marksmen - experts at hiding,
Peasants,
Peasant Guerillas - expert at hiding,

REGIONAL
Czeremisi - VOLHYNIA AND VOLGA-BULGARIA
Uskok - DALMATIA
Musketyri - BOHEMIA
Wallon Pikemen
Wallon Corselets - 'corselets' so heavy, armoured pikemen,
Wallon Musketeers


MERCENARIES - many more units will be available as mercenaries e.g. Cossacks, Scots, Swiss etc. But here are the units which will be available as mercenaries ONLY,

Infantry------>
Lancknecht Pikemen,
Lancknecht Halbardiers,
Lancknecht Armoured Pikemen,
Doppelsoldner,
Lancknecht Arquebusiers,
Mercenary Musketeers,
Mercenary Pikemen,
Italian Arquebusiers - IN ITALY
Italian Corselets
Italian Pikemen

Cavalry---->
Free Lancers,
Mercenary Dragoons,
Reiter - IN GERMANY
Mercenary Cuirassiers
Albanian Stradiots - IN ITALY


THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

Infantry------->

'cannon fodder'
Sekbans#
Azebs#
Tüfekchi # - musket armed, so better;

brigands & pirates
Martolos - greek bandits,
Levends #
Panduks - marksmen,
Ta'ifat Al Ru'sa - algerian pirates,

Jannissaries
Zirhli Nefer# - heavayinfantry, polearms;
Okchu Yenicheri#
Tüfekchi Yenicheri#

Cavalry----->

border cavalry, also Ghazi
Akinji#
Deli#

feudal cavalry
Timarli Sipahi#
Jebelü #

elite cavalry
Kirmizi Bayrak # - majority
Ashaghi Bölüks # - guardians of the Prophet's Banner
Sari Bayrak# - Sultan bodyguards,

balcan auxiliary, heavier cavalry, probably there is a better name for them I'll check
Voynuk


GEORGIA - #ALL

Infantry---->
Aragvlebi
Mtiulebi
Kveiti Meomrebi
Metopheni

Cavalry------>
Elite Mkhedrebi
Shubosani Mkhedrebi


RUSSIA - #- ALL

Infantry---->

musket/arquebus armed
Pishchalshchiki
Streltsy
Soldaty
Vybranniye Soldaty

pikemen
Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki
Kopeyshchiki
Vybranniye Kopeyshchiki

others
Dismounted Ryndy
Opolcheniye

Cavalry----->

feudal cavalry
Pomestnaya Konnitsa
Znat
Ryndy

reformed
Reytary
Draguny

russian copies of Polish cavalry types
Gusary
Stremenniye Kopeyshchiki

others
Stremenniye Streltsy
Sluzhiliye Kazaki
Tatarskaya Konnitsa


MOLDAVIA

infantry--->
Razesi
Calarisi#

cavalry-->
Oastea Mare Cavalry
Wallachian Cavalry
Oastea Mica Viteji
Oastea Mica Boyars

POLAND - #-ALL EXCEPT "Lisowczycy" who are mercenaries,

Cavalry---->

professional
Petyhorcy,
Pancerni,
Husaria - Winged Hussars
Kozacy- armoured, ancestors of Pancerni;
Strzelcy,
Dragoni,
Rajtarzy,
Tatarzy - Polish/Lithuanian Tatars,
Wolosi,

noble levy
Szlachta
Kresowa Szlachta

mercenaries, for Poland 'normal' unit
Lisowczycy


Infantry------>
Piechota wybraniecka

reformed
Piechota lanowa
Muszkieterzy
Pikinierzy

COSSACKS

Infantry---------->

Ukrainian Peasants - 'cannon fodder', numerous and cheap;#

Molodyki - young Cossacks, light pikes, 'cannon fodder';#

Zaporozhye - 'core' infantry, good musketeers;

Serdjuks - elite musketeers;#

Plastuny - Cossack foot scouts, hide everywhere, marksmen;#

Harakterniki - cossack legendary warriors, hide everywhere, hard to get;#

Cavalry-------->

Storozha - Cossack horse scouts, hide in long grass;#

Reyestrovie - basic cavalry, average quality;

Dzhura - cossack bodyguards, god quality cavalry;#

SWEDEN - #ALL

Infantry------->

early
Svennar
Dalkarlar
Kungliga Majestäts Drabanter

reformed
Musketerare
Pikenerare
Svenska kommanderade musketörer
Kungliga Maj:ts garde och livregemente

Cavalry------>
Upplands ryttare
Dragoner
Smalands ryttare
Hakkapeliitta - Finnish cavalry

PORTUGAL - #ALL
Piqueiro Ligeiro
Marinheiro Portugues - Portuguese sailors

arquebusiers on camels !
Arcabuzeiros de Goa

FRANCE #-ALL

Infantry ---->

early
Royal Swiss Pikemen
French Royal Foot Arquebusiers
French Royal Foot Pikemen

Enfants Perdus - French Forlorn Hope

reformed ( Richelieu)
French Musketeers
French Pikemen"}
Mousquetaires du Roi

Cavalry---->

early
Gendarmes de la Garde
Argoulets

reformed
French Light Cavalry
French Heavy Cavalry
Mousquetaires du Roi - elite, dismountable



THE NETHERLANDS

Infantry--->
Watergeuzen#

pikemen
Piekeniers met rondas #
Pikeniere#

musketeers
Musketiere#

Cavalry---->
Ghemeijn ruyteren#
Gheappoicteerde curassiers#

HAPSBURG - AUSTRIA, HRE

Infantry---->
Musketiers
Piekeniers
Verlorne Haufe - Forlorn Hope !
Rondartschiere#

Cavalry ------>
Croats
Empire Reiters#
Empire Cuirassiers#

LIVONIAN CONFEDERACY ( OR TEUTONIC ORDER)
Courland Reiters

CRIMEAN KHANATE ( Tatars)
Kirim Suvari# - elite
Izci Tatarlar - scouts, hide in long grass !!
Kipchak Asker#
Atli Tatarlar
Nogay Asker#
Tatars with arkans# - slave hunters

Infantry
Keffe Bekci# - crimean Jannissaries

SPAIN #-ALL

Infantry----->
Rodeleros
Guardia Tudesca

projectiles
Arcabuceros
Ballesteros - albalesters
Forrajeros
Mosqueteros
Mosqueteros - REFORMED

pikes
Corseletes
Picas Secas
Piqueros
Piqueros - reformed unit

special
Encamisados - hide everywhere,

Guardia Real - elite

Cavalry---->
Archeros
Celadas
Celadas - later period
Dragones
Herreruelo
Nueva Guardia


DANEMARK
Infantry ----->
Snapphanar# ambush experts

Cavalry ---->
Rostjenste#
Nationale Ryttere#


SWITZERLAND
Swiss Pikemen
Swiss Armoured Pikemen#
Swiss Halberdiers

THE KNIGHTS
infantry
Order Militia#

VENICE, GENOA
infantry
Scapoli - marines,

FLORENCE
cavalry
Bande Nere# - the Black Band


HOUGENOTS

cavalry
Millers#

HUNGARY - will be revised thanks to the help of Speiz_Bankurt
Infantry---->
Haiduks
Cavalry---->
Szekely#
Hungarian Hussars#
Rac


SCOTLAND
Highland Clansmen#
Scottish Archers
Scottish Pikemen
Scottish Musketeers
Montrose's Musketeers# - veteran unit able to beat enemy cavalry in melee;

IRELAND

Infantry------>

Omacach - elite melee infantry;

Enniskillen Fusiliers - elite musketeers, 'bulletproof vests';

Oaghancocharan - elite marksmen and ambush fighters;

Kernbannal - basic rebels, javelins;

Galloglaidh - axe wielders, elite melee unit;

Cavalry------>

Hobilars - good quality lancers with javelins;

Taghhoba - good quality mounted arquabusiers;


EGYPT - some units also for the Ottomans,

Infantry------->
Mamluk Handgunners#,
Ashirs - syrian militia,

Cavalry------>
Mamluk Horse Archers#
Saharan Cavalry
Mamluk Cavalry

Camels
Bedouin Camel Guns#
Bedouin Camel Warriors

ENGLAND

Infantry------>
Longbowmen#
Sprinkler Men#
Billmen#
Trained Band Billmen#
Trained Band Musketeers#
Trained Band Pikemen#

cavalry--->
Border Reivers

New Model Army-->
Ironsides#
New Model Army Musketeers#
New Model Army Pikemen#


Saxony LifeGuards#

BAVARIA
Bavarian Black Cuirassiers - Pappenheimer's cavalry

BRANDENBURG

HANSA

Hansa Town Militia

NAVARRAE



I will edit this post if something serious will be changed.

ALL these units are already available in the MTW edition of this mod - check the thread in the Engineers Guild and my sign for downloads.
The beta 0.6. pre-release is including two from many more historical battles for this mod.

ALL these units are known in details ( mostly), which allows recreating them in the RTW engine mod.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

HahnHolio
11-19-2004, 12:11
Wow ... this sounds so kewl, i cant belive it :)

plz get this up and runing for me ....

regards

HahnHolio

SwordsMaster
11-19-2004, 12:20
sorry to start criticising as Im probably not the one who should be speaking, but I have to say that "Vybranniye Soldati" sounds stupid ("Chosen Soldiers" in english).

Dirty peasant
11-19-2004, 13:16
Well Russian units name sounds fine for me except Vybranniye Soldaty and Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki i always thought that Strelets were russian word for musketeer.

@Sad Ronin
Btw а ты случаем не с twow будешь?

SwordsMaster
11-19-2004, 13:24
Strelets were russian word for musketeer.

not exactly. They carried a samopal, an axe and a sword IIRC.

Dead Moroz
11-19-2004, 13:57
Hi, all! I'm almost back in this group.


Well Russian units name sounds fine for me except Vybranniye Soldaty and Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki i always thought that Strelets were russian word for musketeer.
Íó, äà, çâó÷èò õðåíîâî. Íî êàê èõ åùå íàçâàòü? Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî â êàæäîì ñòðåëåöêîì îòðÿäå áûëî íåáîëüøîå ïîäðàçäåëåíèå êîïåéùèêîâ, òèïà, òåõñàïïîðò. Êàêîãî-òî íàçâàíèÿ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, ó íèõ íåò è íå áûëî. Íî â èãðå îíè äîëæíû áûòü, òîìó ùî à) îíè ðåàëüíî ñóùåñòâîâàëè; á) íàäî æå êàê-òî ïðèêðûâàòü ñòðåëüöîâ... ìîëîäöîâ (÷åì ýòè êîïåéùèêè â ðåàëüíîñòè è çàíèìàëèñü). Âîò òàêàÿ áàéäà. Åñëè ó òåáÿ åñòü ëó÷øåå ïðåäëîæåíèå ïî íàçâàíèþ - ïðåäëàãàé.

Íàñ÷åò "Âûáðàííûõ". Áûëà ïðè ñòàðîì ðåæèìå öàðñêàÿ ãâàðäèÿ, æèëà â Ìîñêâå, îõðàíÿëà öàðÿ. È íàçûâàëèñü îíè, ðåàëüíî, Âûáðàííûå.


@Sad Ronin
Btw à òû ñëó÷àåì íå ñ twow áóäåøü?
À òû ñàì, ñëó÷àéíî, íå ñ dirty.ru?

Sad Ronin
11-19-2004, 14:55
to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)


to MERCENARIES
where Scottish mercenaries?
Cossacks too often acted in a role of the mercenaries in many armies of many countries

to Poland
Panc³rn³e kozaki?
Pospolitoe Rushenie ?


COSSACKS

Infantry
"Ukrainian Peasants"}#
"Serdiuks"}
"Cossack Wagon Infantry"}
Cavalry
"Cossack Veterans"}#
"Cossack Sotnia"}
To tell the truth I not like it...))

Transylvania?
Wallachia ?

Dirty peasant

@Sad Ronin
Btw à òû ñëó÷àåì íå ñ twow áóäåøü?
Ñëó÷àåì áóäó...)) Ronin.

Dead Moroz

Íó, äà, çâó÷èò õðåíîâî. Íî êàê èõ åùå íàçâàòü? Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî â êàæäîì ñòðåëåöêîì îòðÿäå áûëî íåáîëüøîå ïîäðàçäåëåíèå êîïåéùèêîâ, òèïà, òåõñàïïîðò. Êàêîãî-òî íàçâàíèÿ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, ó íèõ íåò è íå áûëî. Íî â èãðå îíè äîëæíû áûòü, òîìó ùî à) îíè ðåàëüíî ñóùåñòâîâàëè; á) íàäî æå êàê-òî ïðèêðûâàòü ñòðåëüöîâ... ìîëîäöîâ (÷åì ýòè êîïåéùèêè â ðåàëüíîñòè è çàíèìàëèñü). Âîò òàêàÿ áàéäà. Åñëè ó òåáÿ åñòü ëó÷øåå ïðåäëîæåíèå ïî íàçâàíèþ - ïðåäëàãàé.
Agree on 100%

Íàñ÷åò "Âûáðàííûõ". Áûëà ïðè ñòàðîì ðåæèìå öàðñêàÿ ãâàðäèÿ, æèëà â Ìîñêâå, îõðàíÿëà öàðÿ. È íàçûâàëèñü îíè, ðåàëüíî, Âûáðàííûå.

Then + Polk Novogo Stroja

SwordsMaster
11-19-2004, 15:18
God, all that russian text looks like elfic or something...

Sad Ronin
11-19-2004, 15:42
SwordsMaster
Ea...)
We are elves...)))
Simply change the coding with West-European ISO on Cyrillic (Windows) ))

Dead Moroz
11-19-2004, 15:43
SwordsMaster
Ea...)
We are elves...)))
Simply change the coding with West-European ISO on Cyrillic (Windows) ))
No! On Elfian (Windows). Or Elfian (KOI8-E).

Dead Moroz
11-19-2004, 16:01
to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)
Íå óâåðåí íàñ÷åò Ïîñîøíîé Ðàòè, íå ïðèïîìíþ, ÷òîáû ÿ ãäå-íèáóäü òàêîå ñëîâîñî÷åòàíèå âñòðå÷àë. Äà è âîîáùå, íå ñëèøêîì ëè ñëîæíî? Âîò, Îïîë÷åíèå - ïðîñòî, ïîíÿòíî è... êðàñèâî. ~:)

Íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, òåðìèí "ïîëêè íîâîãî ñòðîÿ" - ãîðàçäî áîëåå ïîçäíèé. Âî âðåìåíà îíûå åãî íå óïîòðåáëÿëè... Âïðî÷åì, êîíå÷íî, "ïîìåñòíîé êîííèöû" òîãäà òîæå íå áûëî. Íî, â îòëè÷èå îò êàâàëåðèè, äëÿ íîâîé ïåõîòû ìû èìååò àóòåíòè÷íîå íàçâàíèå. È ñòðåëêîâ, è ïèêåéùèêîâ, íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ, íàçûâàëè "ñîëäàòû". Ïîñêîëüêó â èãðå ìû èìååì äâà ðàçíûõ âèäà þíèòîâ è, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, äîëæíû èì îáîèì äàòü êàêèå-òî èìåíà, òî ÿ è ïðåäëîæèë: ñòðåëêîâ íàçûâàòü ñîëäàòàìè, à ïèêåéùèêîâ - êîïåéùèêàìè (äàáû ââîäèòü â çàáëóæäåíèå ïðîòèâíèêà). Íó, ðåàëüíî, íå íàçûâàòü æå èõ "Ñîëäàòû-êîïåéùèêè" èëè "Ñîëäàòû ñ êîïüÿìè"? Õåðíÿ êàêàÿ-òî ïîëó÷èòñÿ. À ïî÷åìó íå "ïèêåéùèêè" èëè "ïèêèíåðû"? Ïîòîìó ÷òî, íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, ýòî òåðìèíû áîëåå ïîçäíåãî âðåìåíè.

Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, ðóññêèå ãâàðäåéöû òîæå äîëæíû íàçûâàòüñÿ "âûáðàííûå ñîëäàòû" è "âûáðàííûå êîïåéùèêè".

Dirty peasant
11-19-2004, 16:46
Dead Moroz
Íååååààà ÿ ñàì ïî ñåáå ~:)
Íó ìîå äåëî - êðèòèêà ~D.×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ íà áóðæóéñêîì ÿçûêå ïðî÷èòàòü ýòè íàçâàíèÿ òðóäíî , äà è çíà÷åíèå èì íåïîíÿòíî ~;) Âîçüìèòå âñåõ þíèòîâ èç êàçàêîâ è òîãî...Íó ÿ ýòî òàê äëÿ ïîíòà...

Duke Malcolm
11-19-2004, 19:03
You could call the Scottish Musketeers 'Royal Scots'

SwordsMaster
11-19-2004, 21:30
@ Dead moroz

Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri.
About the guard, well call them just Vybranniye (the chosen) instead of the chosen soldiers which sounds waaaaay more stupid.

And as a side suggestion, why dont you write in english to make it readable to everyone else as well. :book:

Silver Rusher
11-19-2004, 21:42
WOW!!! That's one hell of a lot of factions you got there.

Limitations: 20 total (21 including rebels) and this includes the 4 auto-allied factions. If you take away three auto-allied factions and just leave the Senate (you may have to have at least one other) you still have a limit of 17.

I'm bummed by this too, I had to cut a whole load of factions out of the CTW mod.

Dead Moroz
11-20-2004, 21:22
Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri.
Who?


About the guard, well call them just Vybranniye (the chosen) instead of the chosen soldiers which sounds waaaaay more stupid.
There are 2 kinds of guard - riflemen and pikemen. If RTW engine allows us to have two different units with one shared name then I don't mind that both these units are called just "vybranniye".


And as a side suggestion, why dont you write in english to make it readable to everyone else as well. :book:
Because no one english speaking member complains about these names. ~;)

SwordsMaster
11-21-2004, 01:28
Why dont call them pikeyschiki or musketeri. Who?

"Ñîëäàòû-êîïåéùèêè" èëè "Ñîëäàòû ñ êîïüÿìè"?


There are 2 kinds of guard - riflemen and pikemen. If RTW engine allows us to have two different units with one shared name then I don't mind that both these units are called just "vybranniye".

But "Vybranniye musketeri" or even "musketeri gvardii" and the same for the pikemen to make it a bit more readable.

see, the point here is not to use 15th century names, because the language actually evolved in the last 5-6 centuries, so theres no much point using names that are meaningless for us. I mean, try to respect the original ones as long as possible, but dont let that lead to ridiculous points. If theres no satisfactory orignal name, then use a different one as long as the concept is the same. Thats my opinion of course...




Because no one english speaking member complains about these names.

Okay get your point. ~;)

Silver Rusher
11-21-2004, 09:19
But it is possible to have two different units with the same name.

OK, I'll shut up now...

Ranika
11-21-2004, 19:28
The Irish in this period had Taghcach, they were fairly rare 'file' musketeers, and Oaghancocharan "Woodfolks of Cochoran", who were guerrilla riflemen, and cavalry involved Hobilar (medium cavalry using throwing spears, and a lance, riding hobby ponies, armored in chain with metal plates on it), and Taghhoba, gun-using Hobilar, who wore only padded armor, but would instead ride in a circle round the target, and used an axe in melee.

Other infantry included Claghcach, who are quite advanced over their dark age forebears. Instead of being unarmored and lacking a shield, they use a rather large, thick wooden shield akin to a Scottish targe, and a longsword. Later ones, Omacach, also carried a flintlock pistol, fire a single shot right before they charge, or into a charge enemy, to soften them up for the melee.

Caladnaght (Hard Men), used a large two-handed sword, and were mainly employed for anti-armor purposes, a 'homegrown' version of gallowglass (though they actually preceded gallowglass, who were high medieval mercenaries, originally). Gallowglass used an axe more regularly than a sword, a sparth, which is a double-bladed axehead on a 2 meter shaft. Caladnaght dressed in the same manner as a Gallowglass (and if they were used, utilizing most of the same model would probably do the job for that just fine, just change the weapon, and the skin a bit to give a unique look).

Kerns used a slightly elongated lochaber axe in this period, and are no longer peasants, but semi-professional soldiers, who train and serve 4 months each year (the levies actually cycled in and out, you train 4 months, each man trades places with another, who trains and serves 4 months, and so on).

I know the Irish may seem like a footnote to most people, but France and Spain both saw Ireland as a major nation in this (and most preceding) period, and used, widely, Irish soldiers and mercenaries, but mainly saw them important due to silver and marble that came from Ireland (producing fairly decent trade revenues in Ireland). When the English Victorian Conquests were completed, Irish nobles fled to France and Spain where they were immediately given lands, and sometimes control over private armies. The Irish are only a footnote because the island came under near complete dominion of the British (though, technically, a few towns and small pockets never had British rule exerted on them, and some places in the west felt British rule only slightly). But they had influence over both Spain and France, which is pretty impressive. They're mostly overlooked in this period because, I think, British accounts. The old 'victors write history' chestnut. It's notable many of the conquests were done by buying clan heads and local kings, rather than too many military struggles. While Irish field armies didn't often beat English ones, Irish raiding forces could decimate a force easily 4 times their size. The best Irish units should be fast raiding units who are capable of hiding anywhere, and good ambushers, though Irish fusiliers, called Raohcach, were supposed to be good line infantry, they were just very small in number due to the expense of outfitting them.

The Irish were unified, though it was tenuous, because the English kept buying clan heads, and that was disconcerting to most. Even if not a faction, Irish provinces should then, at least, be heavily prone to rebellion, if possible (as, it was a rebellion in the late 1910s that established a free Irish state, and those rebellions had been going on everywhere there was English rule for nearly 700 years, the Irish were not fond of outside rulers).

SwordsMaster
11-21-2004, 19:36
Good info Ranika. I checked and you are right there were many spanish military leaders with surnames such as O´Donell and O´Riordan. Most of the fonts are of a later period (XVIII-XIX cent). I guess in the Early modern age the Iquisition was too powerful to allow many of these men to get positions of power.

Ranika
11-21-2004, 19:40
In the earlier periods, there were fewer Irish leaders, because much of Ireland was still indepedent, so they didn't need to flee to Spain or France yet. Instead, they'd flee to neighboring lands in Ireland, with their forces, and launch counterstrikes. The wars between the English and Irish lasted for centuries (which is another reason just being a rebel province would kind of annoy me, since they would fall too quickly).

Edit;
Well, "indepedent". It was technically a British protectorate, it would not be a British property until the act of union. It did not give Britain soldiers (except as mercenaries) until the act of union, and broke this protectorate status multiple times. Only east and south Ulster, Meath, and the north of Leinster in Ireland were actually under direct British rule.

cegorach
11-22-2004, 10:34
I edited the unit list post. I have also chosen the factions which should be present in the mod.
I am really disappointed that only so few factions can be used.
I hope that future MTW 2 will allow more.
Anyway, lets do it really good, quality should be our primary concern.

@Names

I do not really care they can be called 'Vybranniye', both units.
Actually the same way it was done in MTW P&M TW also here it is your choice how the units should be called like. ~:)

@ Streletskiye Kopeyshchiki

These were the pikemen used to cover Streltsi from cavalry.


New units for Cossacks and Hungary soon, other factions will get something after this.
Thanks to efforts of many supporters of the P&M TW, especially AlexPeters, Swordmaster and Dead Moroz I have really HUGE resources to choose new units from.


regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Dead Moroz
11-22-2004, 12:46
But it is possible to have two different units with the same name.
That's what I wanted to know.

cegorach
11-23-2004, 09:24
@Ranika

Very interesting info about the Irish. I know Irish historu well, but the unit ideas are something very useful, especially the fact that they have Irish names as well, which is very important for this mod.

Although Ireland will be only a rebellious province/provinces and not a faction ( RTW engine doesn't allow too much) many units from your proposals will be used, I believe.


GENERALLY

Soon we will have our own webside, with some kind of forum, most likely.

Soon I will place new units for Cossacks, Ireland ( rebels) and maybe for Hungary as well.

BTW - there is another historical battle for the P&M TW for MTW ready to download. Several more will be ready later.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Ranika
11-24-2004, 00:30
As for correct names, then, if you wish lingually correct, it isn't Gallowglass. Gallowglass is actually Anglicized from Galloglaich, Galloglaidh, or Galloglahaidh. It means 'Foreign Warrior', but implies the warrior is of a Gaelic extension. Gallowglass were mercenaries, after all, from the Hebrides. The Scots employed them too, and so did the English from time to time.

Even if the Irish are rebels, I'd like to see them with proper units, that'd be pleasing enough. And if ever some new factions could be added, and there were space, it'd be nice to see them added, but I know they wouldn't be near the top of the list, there are plenty of more important factions to be used before hand. A good thing, though, for many Irish units, is that they were mercenaries. Perhaps they could be implemented that way? The French and Spanish, as mentioned, used Irish soldiers (and commanders, to quite a good effect, especially against the English, as the Irish rather vehemently hated them), so having them hireable as mercs in Spain or France may be done? Or, alternatively, have ancillaries that the Spanish and French can get? Like an 'Irish retainer', who'd provide a command bonus against the English maybe? Or, maybe, at least, some Irish surnames for Spanish/French commanders, representing the presence of Irish nobles in their armies. I know it's all a nitpick, but it is a historically accurate nitpick.

At the very least, I hope it can be made so 'rebels' appear often in Ireland, though I wish that could be based on the faction controlling it. The Irish were actually vaguelly willing to submit to a French king at one point, and were less rebellious under a Scottish ruler, but they rebelled nigh constantly under English rule. It's a pity that can't be simulated (at least, I don't think so).

I'm also aware finding the proper names for types of Irish soldiers at the time is a severe pain. There is very little written about the various gunpowder units employed by the Irish. However, an interesting provinicial unit for whoever is in control of Ireland may be Enniskillen Fusiliers. They actually wore what was essentially a prototype bullet proof vest, made of leather, padding, a chain shirt, and then another layer of padding. Enniskillen is in Ulster, if there is more than one Irish province it should be confined to the north/eastern portion, if used, but it would be unique, rather than just another rifleman.

My recommendations for what to use for the Irish rebels then, would probably be:
Kerns, as they were the basic soldiers employed by the Irish

Galloglaidh, I recommend this spelling only because it's from my dialect, any of the others would be fine, but for lingual correctness, I'd not use Gallowglass. They'll also do the work of the Claghcach I noted, I'd also have them available as mercenaries in Ireland, Scotland, and England

Hobilars, basic cavalry of the Irish in this period, but not light cavalry, that's a mistake. They rode ponies, but were well armored and well trained. They throw javelins before charging with their lance.

Taghhoba, mounted riflemen, also on hobby ponies, wearing padding, with an iron helmet

Oaghancocharan, actually, maybe as mercs, the Spanish and French used them to ambush enemies in forests, as they were used to hiding in trees for days at a time, and excellent marksmen, they would would be a threat to British patrols until the Irish free state came about, Michael Collins actually recruited some of them (since they operated, largely indepedent of any resistance movements, they just hated the British, one of them is actually likely who killed Collins).

Omacach, just because they seem unique, I've not heard of many similar types of soldiers, and they were responsible for maintaining the indepence of a few of the aforementioned pockets, from British rule. Pretty efficient soldiers at the time, since their shields could stop a musket ball, they had good sword fighting skills, and their pistol would loosen up the enemy formation before their charge. The areas that employed them ended up being largely ignored, because, in a victory over them, at the period, you were almost guaranteed a great deal of casualties, and that was just not worth it most of the time.

Also, include the Taghcach, just Irish musketeers, and Raohcach, the Irish fusiliers. Nothing particularly special or different about them, just reskinned, or made into mercenaries, but important to note is Irish clothing, they wore long shirts that stopped at the knee, called a leine, the same clothing they had for over a millenium, by this time, the more advanced soldiers (such as Galloglaidh and Hobilar) wore cloaks and capes, as well as trews, checkered pants, or chainmaille leggings (if they wore chain). The Irish still used war cries (and some units in the Irish Army today are still taught them, proper stances for shouting them, etc., but that's a tradition thing). If recording new sounds, and wanting to use a war cry or two, some common ones by this point included the famous 'Eireann Go Bragh' (shouted at the top of their lungs, this was used by just about any Irish soldiers, including those in the service of other nations), 'Bas och náire' = 'Death and disgrace', was popular with guerillas who would scream it at foreign enemies.

I'm aware not all, or even most of these suggestions and this information will/can be used, but I hope enough of it can be used, and that it is helpful. I'm aware there are many constraints, and so I hardly expect all or most of it, but I hope this helps.

SwordsMaster
11-24-2004, 01:36
Great stuff Ranika!


Army today are still taught them, proper stances for shouting them, etc., but that's a tradition thing



Really? Talk about modernization..... ~:confused:
I imagine is something of the type of the Haka the New Zealand rugby players perform before their games....

Ranika
11-24-2004, 01:44
'War cries' are still taught in many armies as a manner of 'pumping up', such as United States Marines shouting 'Hoorah', and similar things. The Irish army has similar things, except they're based on old cries. It has nothing to do with modernization, the Irish military is as modernized as it can afford to be, and is little different than the British military, which is quite modern. War cries and shouts are used though as a method to get the andrenaline pumping while training and the like, but not used in actual warfare, generally.

Of proper names for Irish units, the one real problem with finding 'proper' names for Irish soldiers is the variety of dialects in Irish, and how drastically different some are, such as An Mhumain being almost an entirely different language than Connachta or Ulaidi, plus the names not being from the modern Irish, which has changed a lot in the last 300 or so years in many places.

SwordsMaster
11-24-2004, 13:34
On Provinces:

The new RTW engine allow more flexibility in this aspect, and the spanish provinces of the XVI cent are wuite different from the roman ones, so here is the list:

-Castilla central province, capital: Madrid (replaces Numantia) in the later campaign after 1560, Toledo before 1560 approx. Very slow pop growth in cities, decent farming income, mines, the richest of all spanish cathedrals (i.e. Very good money from tributes, little trading upgrade, mines, farming upgrades, poor pop. growth).

- Andalucia capital, Sevilla, replaces Corduba. Good pop growth, sensible unrest, poor tax collection, can build the "Torre del Oro" building that allows trade with America. HUGE trading income, good farming lands.

- Valencia: capital, Valencia (replaces Carthage Nova). Good farming, average pop growth, decent trade income, high unrest.

- Aragon: capital Barcelona, VERY POOR pop growth, good trade income, mines, high unrest, average farming.

- Navarre: Capital: Pamplona (replaces Asturica), good pop growth, high unrest, poor trade income, mines, poor farming.

- Sicily: Im not too sure if we should make this one a single province. If so, the capital should be Palermo, if not, let me know and i´ll do some more research.

- Granada:capital:Granada low pop growth, mines, easy defence (mountain passes), good farming, poor sea trade (except with morocco). average rebelliousness. (should have the culture penalty no matter what)

- Naples: Same as for Sicily, but Capital: Naples.

- N. Africa. This is a tricky one: the sapnish controlled a few cities in N. Africa, but I dont know if that is enough as to make it a province belonging to Spain. You decide.



General considerations: the "Torre del Oro" was the buiding where all the gold from America was stored before being distributed among the different places. The buildng is in every postcard of Sevilla so it shouldnt be too hard to find. Anyway I can send it by email. I was thinking that maybe this one could be one of the "wonders" in this period. And give to whoever controls it a bonus similar to the Colossus of Rhodes. Or even bigger as it was the only spanish port allowed to trade with America.

Any thoughts?

Edit for Granada.

cegorach
11-25-2004, 09:42
@Ranika

Great info, very useful.

Soon we will have our own forum to prepare both mods ( for MTW and RTW).

I will use some of your ides for MTW P&M TW edition as well.

I will need singular and plural forms of the names.

Please post them as soon as possible.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Ranika
11-25-2004, 10:24
Singular and plural are the same name for most of them, it's context specific. Cach in this period is alternatively 'man' or 'men', depending on how a sentence is worded. So, a Roahcach is a single Irish fusilier, but a unit of Roahcach is many fusiliers. However, there are some changes:

Taghhoba, plural; Taghhobalairdh, singular
Galloglaidh, plural; Galloglaidhael, singular
Oaghancochoran, plural; Cochorancach, singular (Singular is literally 'Cochoran man', a man of the Cochoran clan)
Hobilar, plural; Hobilairdh, singular; Hobilars, plural Anglicized
Kernbannal, plural (literally 'Soldier Band' in this period); Kern, singular; Kerns, plural Anglicized

Irish retainers were called Cómhalta (loosely 'foster-brother'), Caraid (literally 'friend'), or Oscar (loosely 'great champion'), in Irish, and used Irish names and titles, even when in French or Spanish service, so, if there were an Irish retainer ancillary, the proper name would be either Cómhalta or Caraid or Oscar.

Eastside Character
11-25-2004, 13:09
Hello the peoples of The Pike&Musket Mod for RTW!!!

That dude back again?
I haven't been here for a while and I suppose some of you might have wondered why haven't I sent you the promised files. Well, believe it or not i had it deleted because of the problems with some bugs and viruses. To say more, all of my modding resources have been deleted, all the work in progress, plus my own project that I was slowly but surely developing... After that I was mad and frustrated and didn't to go back to modding MTW. The fast I was working two jobs from some time was important too. Then I bought a copy of RTW and couldn't stop playing it! The game amazed me, it was all I was waiting for! Only lately I decided to try to mod it. I visited the Org to see what's up and how people are modding RTW. What I learned amazed me even more than the game itself... And so I started modding RTW rather than playing it, and I'm now redoing the map.

So now, in this long post, you are at the point where I'm about to say the things that really matter.

MAP
If you have no map done yet, I offer my help. I know how to change and I'm actually working on the map for some couple of days now. I have relocated and renamed some of the existing regions and made some new ones.
I would very much like to show you some screens, but unfortunatelly (however silly it sounds) I don't know how to make screenshots in RTW! Please, somebody if you could tell me I'd appreciate that a lot! I have a program for making shots, but it doesn't seem to work with RTW, I don't know why.

Also, if you would like me to make this map, I would need some info on certain regions in Europe that I'm not sure what provinces to place there, how to name them, what should be their capitals etc. So in general probably many people would be involved in the map-making process (there can be up to 200 regions so you don't have to worry about to few of them).

However, if you are already developing a campaign map, I think I could help in other ares too. I have some ideas I think could be discussed.

WONDERING
RTW gives different opportunities than MTW, but also has different restrictions. This means tech trees, unit stats, diplomacy and many other elements of the mod have to be not simply transfered from MTW to RTW, but rather have to be signifficantly modified to fit the new rules.

SENAT = PAPACY?
One of my ideas (though perhaps not the best one) is to leave the 3 allied states (called factions "X" later) and the Senate (as the Papacy). The 3 allied states would have to be catholic powers of the times, I would suggest Spain, Austria and Poland. Also the Senate could roleplay the Pope I think. The only problem is whether it is clear how it works. My theory is that the Senate (called "S" from this point) sends a request to attack a province it recognises as the weakest a faction (it's sending its request to) has acces to. So generally speaking "S" wants a faction "X" to attack its weakest neighboring region. If my theory is wrong and the regions appointed by "S" are somehow hardcoded, then there always have to be made map changes, relocating the hardcoded regions to desider paleces.
As for making Spain, Austria and Poland permanent allies (although as you know later they would be able to fight among themselves) is sensible because:
- Spain and Austria used to be ruled by the same Habsburg dynasty;
- the three mentioned countries were catholic (though there were peoples of other religions in Poland and HRE, the rulling classes and rulers were predominantly catholic);
- in the late XVII century the Papacy called for the creation of The Holy League that was meant to fight with the Ottomans. HRE and Poland, as well as some other countries were members of this league, moreover they were the most signifficant members of that organization and constantly fought with the Ottomans.

What do you think about it?

Well and about all those other things too...

And once again: ? HOW TO MAKE SCREEN SHOTS IN RTW ?

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
11-25-2004, 13:30
Hey EC! Welcome back m8! ~:cheers:

To make screenshots go to the game menu, then in the keyboard configuration there is a key designed for making screenshots. Change it if you want. The images will appear at your RTW/tgas folder.

If for some reason that doesnt work just use the Print screen key, ALT+TAB out of the game, paste the image in an image editor and ALT+TAB back in.

About the Papacy:

I think that if Spain, HRE and Poland are allied, being as they are the biggest factions around at the time, they would crush to pieces anybody else as soon as the Pope points a finger on him (missions) because of the 3vs1 thing. (Remember in the game, when one roman faction declares war on someone all 4 of them declare war on that faction?)

So In the end invariably Spain, HRE and Poland will be THE 3 factions left with everybody else pretty much annihilated.

What I think could be a good Idea is to make the pope rule over the Knigh orders (credit here is to the Cidatel TW guys its their idea). Although I dont think we'll be concentrating on the knight orders as there are many more important factions....

On the other hand the Catholic League would allow for a much more challenging end-of-game period...

Eastside Character
11-26-2004, 00:01
Thanks for the information on screenshots SwordsMaster! I got it working at last!
Here (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/polandRTWmap.jpg) you can see a sneak preview of what I'm doing with map. Not surprisingly I started with my homeland, though I've already made also some Italian, German and a few eastern regions.


About the Papacy:

I think that if Spain, HRE and Poland are allied, being as they are the biggest factions around at the time, they would crush to pieces anybody else as soon as the Pope points a finger on him (missions) because of the 3vs1 thing. (Remember in the game, when one roman faction declares war on someone all 4 of them declare war on that faction?)

So In the end invariably Spain, HRE and Poland will be THE 3 factions left with everybody else pretty much annihilated.

What I think could be a good Idea is to make the pope rule over the Knigh orders (credit here is to the Cidatel TW guys its their idea). Although I dont think we'll be concentrating on the knight orders as there are many more important factions....

On the other hand the Catholic League would allow for a much more challenging end-of-game period...

I know my idea is not perfect, but I'm only hoping we won't have to leave any factions not used in this RTW mod.

The fact that the 3 allies would be very strong could be counterwighted by many factors I think. First, the Ottomand would control about half of the map. Secondly, I believe that if properly balanced, countries such as France, Netherlands, German States, Russia, Sweden and so on, the 3 allied countries wouldn't be that powerfull. The Poles for instance would be surrounded mostly by hostile territories. The same can be said about the Spanish. The HRE seems to be in the relatively safest position, though the Ottoman presence in Hungary would be a major threat. Also there would be no rewards for papacy missions, and that money means a lot.

Anyway if not those 3 countries, then which ones?

Regards,
EC

cegorach
11-26-2004, 09:44
Good to see you EC !

I hope this time your troubles are over and we will see you to the very end of this work.

@Ranika

Very good. I will implement the names in the MTW edition and we will use this for RTW as well.

regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

P.S> EC please contact me by e-mail cegorach77@o2.pl

Ranika
11-26-2004, 10:09
If I can ask, what exactly are you going to be using of the information I gave you? I will try to dig up similar information, so as to be more effective in giving you useful things, rather than offering a wide array of things you won't use. What units and such do you plan to use/how will they be implemented/etc.?

SwordsMaster
11-26-2004, 11:05
Anyway if not those 3 countries, then which ones?


I was thinking... Is it a must to have 4 allied countries being one of them the Senate? Can't we have a Senate+1 country? This way the missions would still be triggered and there would still be civil war at the end (you vs the Senate).

We could make the Papacy allied with Spain as it actually happened, and leave everyone else to minding their own businesses.

See, the HRE has the greatest pools of mercenaries and quite good lands, Poland has the best in game cavalry and Spain the best infantry until the very end of the period. And that is historically correct. So we can't just take and give some uber-musketeers to Netherlands to keep the Spanish at bay. Although we could give the "neighbours" more money to start with.... Dunno...

And about the mission rewards.... I was thinking that maybe some diplomatic units as rewards could be in place (inquisitors and such)


a sneak preview of what I'm doing with map. Not surprisingly I started with my homeland, though I've already made also some Italian, German and a few eastern regions.

Great work EC, looks very promising! :2thumbsup:

Speiz_Bankurt
11-26-2004, 13:20
Cegorach,
I'm trying to get you some info but it is a little hard to find anything accurate and in depth. We'll get back to you soon.

Eastside Character
11-26-2004, 16:18
Well SwordsMaster you're probably right. I was only hoping we could use all the factions available.

Also I have a question that is not related to the topic here but I don't want to start another thread for such a minor (I hope) issue: how to change faction's colors?

Having the Spanish allied with Pope is not a bad idea.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have another idea tho: how about getting rid of Senate-Papacy and have the 3 allied countries as follows: England, Netherlands and Sweden (or some other protestant country). What do you think.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm just trying to discuss all possibilities before we decide not to use some factions, which, given the number of factions we can use in general, is a very important gameplay issue I think.

As far as the map is coming along, I'd need some good info on german provinces. Now I only have: Brandenburg, Electorate of Saxony, Silesia, Pomerania, Mecklenburg; I know there will have to be Bavaria, Hanover, Palatinate, but the rest is unclear to me. I need some good maps of that area. Can anyone help?

Regards,
EC

eadingas
11-26-2004, 17:17
to RUSSIA:
Pososhnaja Rat' - Auxiliary armies similar on Opolcheniye
"Vybranniye Soldaty"= Polk Novogo Stroja? (New Order Regiment?)


to MERCENARIES
where Scottish mercenaries?
Cossacks too often acted in a role of the mercenaries in many armies of many countries

to Poland
Panc³rn³e kozaki?
Pospolitoe Rushenie ?


Ekhem... just popping in to note that we're NOT RUSSIANS :) Please don't use russian grammar endings ;)
Neither did we use any 'armored cossacks' whatever you might mean :)

"Pospolite Ruszenie" is not really a type of unit but type of recruitment - recruiting noblemen to fight. It can be simulated by a unit of simple light infantry armed with sabres, but there were all sorts of soldiers fighting in Pospolite Ruszenie, including heavy cavalry. There were two types of recruitment in Poland: Royal Army - better equipped and trained, but very expensive, and Pospolite Ruszenie - volunteers, cheap and poor. Plus some ethnic mercenaries, like Tatars and Cossacks, and king's mercenaries brought from abroad - Hungarian and German infantry.

General Bodyguards should be dragoon-type cavalry, called Rajtar (Ritter). They were very rare in this time, and only in royal army. Armored with two pistols. There were also some arquebusiers and musketeers, but only as experiment. Another experimental unit were 'polish arquebusiers' - sort of early Self-Propelled Artillery ;) - heavily armored riders carrying all sorts of heavy firearms - for example, four pistols, musket and rusznica per one rider.
Remember that polish army relies almost solely on heavy and auxilia cavalry... and at the time, it was without, a doubt the best, cavalry in Europe. But the infantry was a laugh.

As for the 'Catholic League' alliance - NOT a good idea. Not for that period. Not with Poland in it. We took no part in the religious wars, and there were times we were even allied with Turkey...

Cheers.

Eastside Character
11-26-2004, 18:01
As for the 'Catholic League' alliance - NOT a good idea. Not for that period. Not with Poland in it. We took no part in the religious wars, and there were times we were even allied with Turkey...


Yes, I've already realised my "Catholic League" idea was not a good one. And speaking "we" who do you have in mind? The Polish?

As for Pospolite Ruszenie, I think that "Szlachta" unit is enough to resemble it.

One more thing to all the people on the team: don't you think this Mod could use a separate sub-forum here at the Org? Just as other big projects? I think it would make things easier, especially as more and more people are being involved in it. Cegorach and others, what do you think?

Regards,
EC

WarHawk
11-27-2004, 03:44
You forgot Prussia as a faction.

eadingas
11-27-2004, 10:08
Why not make Rome = HRE? With Austria, Czechy, Saxonia and Brandenburgia/Prussy. Then you could have 30-years war as Civil War.

cegorach
11-27-2004, 10:37
@Eadingas

I am really well informed when it comes to the armies of that time - see P&M TW for MTW. Thank you.

@EC

We will have our own forum and webside, so subforum isn't really necessary.

regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

eadingas
11-27-2004, 12:24
Cegorach: Yeah, I noticed that after I posted. I edited out most of my remarks after that :)

Eastside Character
11-27-2004, 19:39
Hello everyone!

I'm adding more and more regions to the map, but I still have a problem with Germany. The provinces I added since you saw the polish screens are:
- name of a province (settlement)
---------------------------------
- Electorate of Hanover (Hanover)
- East Friesland (Bremen)
- Mecklenburg (Lubeck)
- Bavaria (Munich)
- Bohemia (Prague)
- Moravia (Brno)
- Bishopric of Liege (Liege)
- Netherlands (Amsterdam)
- Brabant (Brussels)
- Flanders (Ghent)
- Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
- Switzerland (Bern)
- Austria (Vienna)
- Royal Hungary (Presburg)
(if any of the above names are incorrect or you know any alternative names you think suit better, post here)

I know Netherlands should be divided but I don't know how exactly? Also I have a problem to decide what should be other german regions. If anyone could post a useful link to some good map, please do so.

Also to anyone: we can have up to 200 regions maximum, so we can brainstorm here what provinces should be included. I think we can be all very glad there can be so many regions, it don't really have to be 200 of them tho. Can be less. Anyway if anyone has any ideas about what regions should be included, don't hesitate to post it here.

Oh, almost forgot, have there been made any decisions about which RTW faction slots will the P&M factions use? Or can we still discuss it?

Regards,
EC

WarHawk
11-27-2004, 23:17
Hello everyone!

I'm adding more and more regions to the map, but I still have a problem with Germany. The provinces I added since you saw the polish screens are:
- name of a province (settlement)
---------------------------------
- Electorate of Hanover (Hanover)
- East Friesland (Bremen)
- Mecklenburg (Lubeck)
- Bavaria (Munich)
- Bohemia (Prague)
- Moravia (Brno)
- Bishopric of Liege (Liege)
- Netherlands (Amsterdam)
- Brabant (Brussels)
- Flanders (Ghent)
- Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
- Switzerland (Bern)
- Austria (Vienna)
- Royal Hungary (Pesbourg)
(if any of the above names are incorrect or you know any alternative names you think suit better, post here)

I know Netherlands should be divided but I don't know how exactly? Also I have a problem to decide what should be other german regions. If anyone could post a useful link to some good map, please do so.

Also to anyone: we can have up to 200 regions maximum, so we can brainstorm here what provinces should be included. I think we can be all very glad there can be so many regions, it don't really have to be 200 of them tho. Can be less. Anyway if anyone has any ideas about what regions should be included, don't hesitate to post it here.

Oh, almost forgot, have there been made any decisions about which RTW faction slots will the P&M factions use? Or can we still discuss it?

Regards,
EC


Quick google search:

http://maps.library.umass.edu/raster/other_historical/images/bos_school/prussia.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/british_dominions_yearbook/prussia_map4_1815.jpg

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/prussia1440-1866.jpg

Eastside Character
11-27-2004, 23:47
These maps are from a later period...

WarHawk
11-27-2004, 23:50
These maps are from a later period...
Are they? :o Sorry, I must not be familiar with that period then. :embarassed:

eadingas
11-28-2004, 11:19
How about dividing Helvetia in three parts - french, german and italian-speaking. This way Swiss have better chance of defending themselves.

Eastside Character
11-28-2004, 12:11
Well eadingas, I'm not sure if there even will be a Swiss faction (as we have that nasty 21f limit). Besides dividing Switzerland is a bit problematic - most of it are high mountains and there isn't much space for settlements, roads etc.

Last added:
Lombardy (Milan)
Tuscany (Florence)
Savoy (Turin)
Liguria (Genoa)
Transylvania (Nagyszeben)
Wurtemberg (Stuttgart)
Franche Comte (Besancon)
Venezzo (Venice)
Corsica (???)

red font indicates I'm not sure if the name is correct

I was thinking about the 3 allied factions again... I came up with the Dutch, English and ... Hungarians (all 3 protestant). There would be no Senate/Pope thingy, the Dutch and the English would cooperate, as they really did, and the Hungarians would be away enough that it would only be a formal issue that they'd be allied with the other two. Besides the Dutch fought against the Spanish, and as I remember the English didn't like the Spaniards either (Spanish Armada Defiance). What do you think people? Any flaws of this idea? I think we must use those 3 allied factions somehow, the only question would be which factions should it be.

Regards,
EC

wilpuri
11-28-2004, 12:58
Are you sure the Hungarians were protestant back then? Most of Hungarians are Catholic in modern times at least.

Eastside Character
11-28-2004, 14:46
I'm not sure. But well, if you don't like Hungarians then the 3rd protestant faction could be Brandenburg or Sweden perhaps. And I don't think the Alliance England-Netherlands-Sweden would dominate the game. Out of these three, Sweden would probably be the most powerfull. The Dutch, a small faction in conflict with the Spanish Empire, would be the weakest.
English would be a kind of a medium strenght faction.

Regards,
EC

Eastside Character
11-28-2004, 15:03
Another idea that just popped into my mind is an alliance Turkey-Crimean Tatars-Moldavia, as it really was. The Ottoman Empire had Crimea and Moldavia as vassal states, but they could have their own rulers, armies etc. In returned Sultan had the right to use his vassals' armies whenever he wished. However it happened sometimes the vassals denied to give their armies under Sultan's command. There were several such rebellions almost always leading to Turkish invasions. It aslo often happened that the vassals, formally obliged not to violate Turkish foreign policy, attacked countries connected with the Ottomans by treaties. Khans of Crimea were very often acting in that way, causing Turkey to be several times involved in conflicts it didn't wanted.

just ideas... :book:

Regards,
EC

Dead Moroz
11-28-2004, 21:43
Why not make Rome = HRE? With Austria, Czechy, Saxonia and Brandenburgia/Prussy. Then you could have 30-years war as Civil War.
Sounds good. I think it's the most logical and reasonable idea about "ex-Roman" system. Because HRE was like RTW's Romans: it consisted of semi-independent states under leadership of Emperor (Senate in RTW). Plus, real HRE represented itself as continuation of Roman Empire.

SwordsMaster
11-28-2004, 23:44
ok, looks like i missed a good bit over the weekend. I have to say EC came back with lots of energy! :2thumbsup:

As of the 3 factions: We need a "Senate" because otherwise the game will CTD (thats what Duke John came up with, look in the Sengoku forum) And I think the HRE+german states is a good idea.

Also the turkish alliance sounds like a good suggestion, It would somewhat limit turkey in the north but make it very challenging at the same time...

About the maps: one of them actually says "1440-1795" which kinda includes our timeframe.

Regards.
SM

cegorach
11-29-2004, 09:49
@Senat

I think that Senat should be used for the Pope,

The three auto-allied factions could be Spain, HRE Hapsburgs ( House of Austria) and the KNIGHTS of St.John. Why the third ?
Mainly because it was the last military order, important naval power and was in very good relations with Spain and HRE all this time. This way also the Ottomans should have more troubles with confronting the catholic powers in the sea.

So this way we would have 2-3 spare slots. Which factions should use these ?

I think that Scotland ( allied with France so quite important)or Saxony or Brandenburg, or other protestant german state.

@New units

I have selected new units for Cossacks and new unts available in Ireland only for the Catholic countries.

IRELAND

All units hide in long grass or even everywhere ( except cavalry);

Infantry------>

Omacach - elite melee infantry;

Enniskillen Fusiliers - elite musketeers, 'bulletproof vests';

Oaghancocharan - elite marksmen and ambush fighters;

Kernbannal - basic rebels, javelins;

Galloglaidh - axe wielders, elite melee unit;

Cavalry------>

Hobilars - good quality lancers with javelins;

Taghhoba - good quality mounted arquabusiers;


COSSACKS

Infantry---------->

Ukrainian Peasants - 'cannon fodder', numerous and cheap;#

Molodyki - young Cossacks, light pikes, 'cannon fodder';#

Zaporozhye - 'core' infantry, good musketeers;

Serdjuks - elite musketeers;#

Plastuny - Cossack foot scouts, hide everywhere, marksmen;#

Harakterniki - cossack legendary warriors, hide everywhere, hard to get;#

Cavalry-------->

Storozha - Cossack horse scouts, hide in long grass;#

Reyestrovie - basic cavalry, average quality;

Dzhura - cossack bodyguards, good quality cavalry;#

@Ranika

I implemented all above units for MTW edition of this mod. This version ( 0.7) should be ready very soon.

What do I need ?

First.
I think that some Irish heroes/villians should be also present in both editions of the mod, so maybe you could propose some ?
I need basic info ( where and when born/appeared) + ideas for command-piety-loyalty-acumen-dread for MTW and something similar for the RTW edition. One, most important vice/virtue is also required.

Second.
I made some ( 5 up to now) historical battles for the MTW edition of the mod and I am sure I will do the same for RTW mod in future. I believe I am pretty good in this, in fact some things I discovered on my own and now I am looking for interesting proposals for this kind of battles.

I would gladly prepare one of Irish battles for the MTW ( I am close to finishing entire 'Moscow' historical campaign for the MTW) of course IF I HAVE enough information.
What does it requires ?
1. a map of the battlefield ( I am preparing in-game battlemaps on my own if necessary using MTW editor),
2. info about the battle - fighting armies ( units, numbers, commanders, experience of the units, where to place them), weather and what waere targets of both ( or more) armies.

Battle conditions can vary.

Here is a list of these for the MTW - I am still not sure about the RTW, but it will change.
My discoveries are marked with @

Kill, capture or rout enemy forces;
Kill, capture or rout X number of enemies;
Kill or capture all/a number of enemy soldiers @;
Kill or capture enemy general/generals;
Kill, capture or rout enemy general/-s;
Capture an area with X number of soldiers for X time;
Protect an area;
Destroy objective/objectives;
Protect allied army @;
Protect an allied army until it reaches a marked area @;
Defeat the enemy without losing X number of soldiers @;
Defeat the enemy in X time;

It all can be combined in various ways e.g. 'Don't lose your general and protect the allied army for 30 minutes without losing to many soldiers. If the enemy kills too many allied soldiers you will lose.'

If you hae something interesting contact me cegorach77@o2.pl


@Speiz_Bankurt

Good, I am waiting.
BTW - did you try the MTW P&M TW ?



@EC

For the map. I strongly suggest changing the name of Great Poland's capital to Poznan. Posen isn't really accurate for this time.

Second. Please add another province 'the Wild Fields' cut from Kiev. This would be useful for the Cossack faction, which should start as a Polish protectorate.
Its capital should be Sich and its territory should protect, more or less, Kiev from the south.

I think there is no further reason to explain why should this be added.



@eadingas

'armoured Cossacks' are Polish 'Kozacy' cavalry, the ancestors of later 'Pancerni'.



My regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

SwordsMaster
11-29-2004, 11:13
I think that Senat should be used for the Pope,
The three auto-allied factions could be Spain, HRE Hapsburgs ( House of Austria) and the KNIGHTS of St.John. Why the third ?

How about the period with Spain and the HRE under the same king? (Charles V of HRE, Charles I of Spain)


Another rather aesthethic consideration: How are we going to manage the Family system in RTW?

I mean, in the early modern era, the oldest son would inherit in 90% of the situations, so no "pick your heir" mechanism is allowed.

I suggest changing the "Faction Heir" label for Crown Prince, and having ONLY 1 Crown prince (if that is possible), and the rest of them would be "High nobles", with title depending on the concrete region.

Ranika
11-29-2004, 11:45
I can only think of two particularly outstanding Irish commanders you may wish to use, mainly because they were both quite exceptional, one was a flat out pyschopath, and the other is regarded as saint in part of Munster.

There is Aedhan MacDomnall Ui Machoran, also called Aedhan daDiabhal (Aedhan the Devil). (1556-1612, born somewhere in Ulster, not known exactly, died when his brother cut his throat). He sold his lands in west Ulster to the English in secret, and forced his army, essentially, including his brother, into English service by proxy. His brother, Malachai, when he learned that Aedhan's intentions were driven by the English, cut his brother's throat while he was sleeping. Before this, however, Aedhan marched his soldiers into Connacht and attempted to capture the whole of the province. While he did quite well against the men of Connacht, his death cut his conquest short, and Malachai informed the men of Aedhan's treachery, they quickly disbanded thereafter.

Stats (share what is applicable for Rome, I know I'm missing stuff, but it'll take a lot of thought);
Command; 6 (Aedhan was a fairly skilled commander, but most of his driving force was the quality of his men)
Piety; 0 (Aedhan was quite publically an athiest)
Loyalty; 4 (Aedhan was clearly less than a loyal man)
Acumen; 8 (Aedhan was trained in accounting while in England when he was young, also when he probably picked up his English sympathies)
Dread; 8 (Aedhan was a psychopath who massacred entire villages)

Vice/Virtues; Anything to increase his dread, or lower his piety. He was a true, honest pyschopath who enjoyed watching people suffer, and his contempt for all things religious was quite extreme (he personally enjoyed burning churches and executing priests himself). Aedhan is little known now, quite purposely. The memory of Aedhan is horrible enough that Irish and English alike sort of attempted to erase him from their collective memories. Even the English, for who Aedhan worked, hated him. He was a truly disgusting, villanous human being, who attempted to commit genocide of the men of Connacht (whom he personally hated).


Then, there is Tyrone MacNiall Cochoran daGlúindubh (Tyrone the Black Knee) (1554-1654, born in Cashel, died of old age, on his 100th birthday, peacefully). Tyrone is a local saint in a small portion of Munster. "The Black Knee" (daGlúindubh), was a title give to those who were particularly religious. Tyrone was an actual fanatic. Born as a wealthy Irish aristocrat, Tyrone gave up all of his money to the poor, and joined a small militaristic monastary as a lay brother (as he wished to marry and have children). Upon hearing of a possible invasion from the English, he fled home to his clan, and organized them into a militia. Knowing their numbers would be insufficient against the invaders, he had them conduct clandestine actions, pirating weapons, armor, and supplies. He was the one to start the Oaghancocharan. When Tyrone died, he died quite suddenly, despite his being 100 years old (to the day). He told his youngest son Kian that he felt a bit tired, laid down and chatted with his son till he fell asleep and died.

Stats;
Command; 8 (Tyrone was a truly amazing commander, his faith and lingual skills inspired his men to fight, even in situations that were almost assured failure)
Piety; As much as possible (Tyrone was called 'more faithful than Patrick' by his contemporaries)
Loyalty; Likewise (Tyrone's faith and proto-patriotic feelings encouraged maximum devotion to his cause, and to anyone who supported it, his cause being a firmly Catholic Ireland)
Acumen; 6 (Tyrone was an aristocrat, and was raised to be an able mathematician)
Dread; 0 (Tyrone's kind demeanor toward prisoners and his enemies would make him almost totally lack any sense of dread. He was simply too nice)

Vice/Virtues; Anything to increase his faith, a province he's governing's zeal, increase his soldiers' morale, or provide bonuses to ambushing. For Rome, possibly a 'monk' ancillary of some type, he had a clerical monk, Brother Typhus, who served with him directly. Vices, anything that lowers dread by implying how nice of a man he is. Possibly something to lower diplomatic skills in Rome, considering that, while very nice, and very skilled at speaking, he could only speak Middle An Mhumain (Munster Irish) and Latin.


I can't think of any truly amazing battles in Ireland during this period, except one, led by Tyrone (the ambush at Ceanniasc). However, I don't know how to make maps for that, unless you mean, just some basic 'troop position' type thing like found in a history book.

And on Irish units, all should at least hide in tall grass, Oaghancocharan should be able to hide anywhere, they were quite proficient with camoflauging. Omacach, as well, should be able to hide anywhere. All should have 'Improved Hide In Forest', and possibly a bonus in snow (the Irish saw winter as an opportunity to attack a slightly weaker enemy, and they hardened themselves appropriately to make use of the tactic). None should be available to the English except Enniskillen Fusiliers (which the English did use).

Ranika
11-29-2004, 11:45
Also forgot, Kerns by the 16th century only carried one or two javelins on them, then used their modified lochaber axes as pikes.

Eastside Character
11-29-2004, 13:59
Some news on the map - I extended it more to the north, so that Faroe Islands and southern Finland are present on the map.
If you think we should have it extended to the north even more, let me know, and let me know why too.

@Cegorach

Changing Posen to Poznan is no problem, I just thought the name of that city in english is Posen.
As for "The Wild Fields", well I know you like that province a lot and no problem, I can do it. But still I don't understand your motives. That area was part of Kiev. Sich was merely what we could today call a "terrorist camp" (or at least Bush's administration would call it so). It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks. Besides, "The Wild Fields" extended further east up to Don river, and even further.
As a final remark I'd suggest naming this (nomen omen nonexistent officially) province not "The Wild Fields", which in my opinion sounds akward on the vast steppes of Ukraine, but rather give it its local name:
Zaporozhia.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
11-29-2004, 14:17
@EC

Sweden has to be included fully in the map. That means Sweden, Norway and some Finland, at least at the MTW level.

Although it would be gameplay-wise to open the possibility of land-invading Sweden by including the whole peninsula. That doesnt have to mean more provinces tho.

Zhaporozhye I think depicts better the ukrainian spelling. And the Sich was more of a concept than a physical place, I would call it Hortitsa (The name of an island on the Dniepr where a cossack fortress was located, in the modern-day city of Zaporozhye).

BTW, whats wrong with the drunk and crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks? I'm related to them ~;) ....Now that Im thinking, that might explain some of my tendencies..... ~:cheers:

Dead Moroz
11-29-2004, 15:25
It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks.
You... imperialistic chauvinist... :clown:

This was my suggestion for Eastern European provinces during MTW mod. Some most eastern regions should be corrected according to RTW realities, but the main idea is still the same.

http://img7.exs.cx/img7/3889/Map3.jpg

SwordsMaster
11-29-2004, 17:22
Dead moroz, just out of curiosity, where did you get that map from? It looks vaguely but intensely familiar...

Dead Moroz
11-29-2004, 17:39
Dead moroz, just out of curiosity, where did you get that map from? It looks vaguely but intensely familiar...
Bought in Amazon. ~:)

What did you mean in your question?

SwordsMaster
11-29-2004, 17:42
lol
~D

No, I mean if it comes from some game and-or webpage. It vaguely reminds me one of the Paradox games...

eadingas
11-29-2004, 17:54
What are the "Wild Field'' on this map supposed to be? Did Russians have their own Wild Fields, apart from those in Zaporozhe?

Dead Moroz
11-29-2004, 18:05
lol
~D

No, I mean if it comes from some game and-or webpage. It vaguely reminds me one of the Paradox games...
Actually it's the map we used discussing mod for MTW. I don't know where it from. Ask Alex Peters.

Dead Moroz
11-29-2004, 18:12
What are the "Wild Field'' on this map supposed to be? Did Russians have their own Wild Fields, apart from those in Zaporozhe?
I am surprised that Poles had their own "Wild Field" in Zaporozhye.

"Wild Field" (or "Dikoe Pole" in Russian) was huge steppe territory from Danube to Northern Kazakhstan or even further. So both these Polish and Russian "Wield Fields" were parts of one region indeed. Really it was "no man's land".

Ellesthyan
11-29-2004, 19:22
EC, I'd advice you to divide the Netherlands, depending on how many provinces you can spare them, like I've shown in the picture.

My reasoning behind them are this:
-Holland is quite logical. It depicts the most important province(s) of the republic, and was in times of war the part that could be defended by the waterline. Capital Amsterdam.. Duh.

-Generaliteitslanden is the name for the lands that were not part of the founding 7 provinces. They have been conquered by Maurits and Frederik-Hendrik in the later part of the war. Capital Maastricht; the gap between the southern and the northern parts is a little awkward. You might opt for recreating the modern borders, as it's not that much off.

- de Provincie is a name used in Holland for the "backward" east of the Netherlands. They were in power far behind Holland, and have been the battleground for many wars. Capital Groningen; although Utrecht is a well known and important city, Groningen was essentially the fortress of the north provinces and therefore strategically seen more important.

With an extra province to spare, the division of the low lands when the duke of Parma was the commander of the Spanish forces can be recreated. The duke had been able to retake the east part from the republic. Under able generals, the Netherlands was able to capture it city by city. It also allows the general difficulty with defeating the Netherlands from the east to be represented. In this scenario Utrecht is for obvious reasons the capital of the middle part.
http://www.geocities.com/ellesthyan/NederlandPMmod.bmp

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
11-29-2004, 19:56
You guys don't bother reading the posts on the original thread anymore?


I made a 3 frame page: A menu, news and links, but yeah, i agree, i forgot the links section. There's a beta avaiable at this URL: http://pwp.netcabo.pt/the_dementor/pm/index.htm
Well my email: the_dementor@hotmail.com See if you like the color scheme and so on...

About the short url, how will it be? Is the team willing to pay for a .com or .pl or .org or .net? Or are we just going to use free short url such as .cjb.net or .tk?

Now about the song i was composing, well, i still haven't wroten it down, but it i've already planned it, maybe in a few weeks ill have it completly ready.

One thing i forgot on the last post: I need a 967x102 banner of the mod please, or i can just do one myself, but i'll take alot of time...
As you noticed, the banner is quite large, the reason is that i planned the website for high resolutions (1024x768 and above).



The background pic is provisory, im waiting for cegorach to send me the original.

Eastside Character
11-29-2004, 23:03
Count, tHe dEmEnToR, I'm expecting to make some map screens, should I send them to you so you can uplad them to the page? Or should I still use my own space for now?

SwordsMaster, I extended map in the north to a MTW-extent. ~;) I will post some screens soon, I only want to get some few more regions done before.

Ellesthyan, thanks for the info. Still I have a question; is Rotterdam capital of Zeeland or not? And one more thing, Maastricht cannot be placed on such a small territory, will have to move in a bit to the north. I'll show what I mean very soon.

Regards,
EC

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
11-30-2004, 00:33
Well, that page is just a template. I wanted to include the other screens aswell, i was going to ask cegorach if he could get me all the previous mtw screens in one pack, but if you need a ftp space, yea you can send me.

Cheers, ~:cheers:

Dead Moroz
11-30-2004, 10:01
I begin to think that the idea about Turkish alliance as successor of "Senate system" would be cool. ~:cheers:

How about poll to finally decide this question?

Ellesthyan
11-30-2004, 10:12
Ellesthyan, thanks for the info. Still I have a question; is Rotterdam capital of Zeeland or not? And one more thing, Maastricht cannot be placed on such a small territory, will have to move in a bit to the north. I'll show what I mean very soon.

Ah, no. Rotterdam was in that time not much more than a little fishers village. Besides, it is not even part of Zeeland, nor has it ever been. The Capital of Zeeland is a little difficult to find, but I assume that it's either Vlissingen (or Flushing in English) or Zierikzee. The latter was besieged by one of the Spanish commanders and taken; however it revolted not too long afterwards. The former is the most important port in the province, but not as well fortified as Zierikzee.
Maastricht can be replaced by Breda in the northern part with not too much trouble. I like Maastricht better though.

cegorach
11-30-2004, 10:21
TIMEFRAME

For those who do not now P&M TW for MTW I announce that the timeframe of this mod is between 1480 and 1700. The second period should start around 1572 in my opinion allowing more 'reformed' units.



@Ranika

"Aedhan MacDomnall Ui Machoran, also called Aedhan daDiabhal
Command; 6 (Aedhan was a fairly skilled commander, but most of his driving force was the quality of his men)
Piety; 0 (Aedhan was quite publically an athiest)
Loyalty; 4 (Aedhan was clearly less than a loyal man)
Acumen; 8 (Aedhan was trained in accounting while in England when he was young, also when he probably picked up his English sympathies)
Dread; 8 (Aedhan was a psychopath who massacred entire villages)"

For the only one vice he can get in the MTW I will use

["killer3desc"]
{"His habit of torturing and killing has become public knowledge. He is feared and hated because of it. +5 Valour, +4 Dread, -5 Piety. "}

Should be all right, I believe.


"Tyrone MacNiall Cochoran daGlúindubh
Command; 8 (Tyrone was a truly amazing commander, his faith and lingual skills inspired his men to fight, even in situations that were almost assured failure)
Piety; As much as possible (Tyrone was called 'more faithful than Patrick' by his contemporaries)
Loyalty; Likewise (Tyrone's faith and proto-patriotic feelings encouraged maximum devotion to his cause, and to anyone who supported it, his cause being a firmly Catholic Ireland)
Acumen; 6 (Tyrone was an aristocrat, and was raised to be an able mathematician)
Dread; 0 (Tyrone's kind demeanor toward prisoners and his enemies would make him almost totally lack any sense of dread. He was simply too nice)"

The only virtue he will get is

["chivalrous3desc"]
{"This man's adherence to the code of chivalry is the very stuff of legend, an inspiration to troubadours and storytellers! +3 Morale, -3 Dread"}

OR

"paranoidd3desc"]
{"He has repented his sins and claims to be washed in the blood of the Lamb of God. He has taken a vow of personal poverty and donated his wealth to the Church. The Inquisition will find him hard to fault now. -6 dread, +6 piety"}

WHICH one is better ?

I will also use the stats you have propose, even though any non-royal commanders will not get command higher than 6 - they can usually be promoted with various office titles, but because they are rather rebels ( or maybe the first one should be in English heroe list ?) or independent characters I think they can be as good as you have proposed. If you think that 'this Devil' sgould be in english list his command will be decreased by 2 points.



"I can't think of any truly amazing battles in Ireland during this period, except one, led by Tyrone (the ambush at Ceanniasc). However, I don't know how to make maps for that, unless you mean, just some basic 'troop position' type thing like found in a history book."

This kind of map should be enough, I can re-create it using MTW editor.
You can always prepare something using anykind of graphic software ( even Windows Paint is enough) as long as it is good enough to place troops and other objects using it.

"And on Irish units, all should at least hide in tall grass, Oaghancocharan should be able to hide anywhere, they were quite proficient with camoflauging. None should be available to the English except Enniskillen Fusiliers (which the English did use)."

They will be. In MTW all these units will hide everywhere ( maybe except the Fusilers).

"Also forgot, Kerns by the 16th century only carried one or two javelins on them, then used their modified lochaber axes as pikes."

Thay already have javelins, I have some data about the Irish military at that time, but the info about these axes is very important - they will get bonuses fighting cavalry.

Another thing.
In the MTW campaign every faction will get at least 9 office titles ( up to 10). I have no idea now if I add Ireland for the MTW edition of this mod ( not too soon, at least), still please propose some ( including at least 1 religious title) I will have these placed in my data resources for future, possible use.

@EC

"As for "The Wild Fields", well I know you like that province a lot and no problem, I can do it. But still I don't understand your motives. That area was part of Kiev. Sich was merely what we could today call a "terrorist camp" (or at least Bush's administration would call it so). It was no town, it was no city, it was a place filled with crazy warmongers and pillagers called cossacks."

Honestly I was going to travel to Kiev to support the Ukrainian opposition manifestations only to realise that my passport is invalid ( I don't need it in the EU) and it takes about one month to get a new one, damn ! Still it has nothing in common with this province.
I believe that it is really necessary, even though it wasn't a town, but was important enough to be added as one of these. I want the Cossack faction in the mod and they will need one province.
Kiev is not for them, so they need something else.
In fact even though Sich was a warrior camp ( or camps, because there were several of these) and not much more WE WILL NEED IT.
It should be called Sich, because it was known by this name. No 'Hortitsa', please - noone will recognise its meaning, except few of us.


The map should include some kind of 'landbridge' from Finland to Sweden, but nothing more than minimum.

BTW I am sending you the MTW map.

@Dead Moroz

"This was my suggestion for Eastern European provinces during MTW mod. Some most eastern regions should be corrected according to RTW realities, but the main idea is still the same."

Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman

cegorach
11-30-2004, 10:25
@Count, tHe dEmEnToR

This will take some time, I am not sure I have this at all it was AlexPeters work.

Anyway I will inform you soon.. :bow:

Ranika
11-30-2004, 11:13
I'll make a map for the ambush at Ceanniasc as soon as I can, and send it to you, it should be simple. As an aside, the town's name, Ceanniasc, means 'Fish's Head'. I always found that funny, considering the town really did do anything with fish.

Aedhan, maybe make him an English hero, since he WAS working for the English, not the Irish. However, my sticking point on that is, he used an Irish army, with Irish troops and such, not English troops. The Vice sounds perfect for him.

I'd say the second virtue for Tyrone, that seems to fit him to a T. Even if Tyrone were in a faction (like, as said, a possible, but probably far off indepedent Irish faction), he'd technically be a prince. While he joined a monastary and such, he was prepared to take the throne of Munster if necessary. While not directly from the bloodline of the current king, Irish Ruire were elected, not usually inherited.

If the Irish were made a faction, just to get this out of the way right quick, could that be simulated? Like, have them operate like the HRE. When the king dies, with no heirs, a new king is elected? In reality, whenever the ruire died, they'd elect a king, regardless of any children he had, but usually it'd be one of his sons, nephews, siblings, or first-to-second cousins.

Office Titles;
Ardeaspag tu Armagh (Archbishop of Armagh, where the cathedral in which Saint Patrick's body is interred is, as well as numerous holy relics that were removed during the Victorian conquests; during this period, he also had to command a defense force for the cathedral and the town, and should maybe get +1 to command)

Taoiseach (Chosen One, the oldest title still in use in Irish government, the Taoiseach was originally in charge of overseeing the elections of the Ri, and was a foreign affairs advisor)

Ceannasaí Faolcú (Wolf Champion, in charge of organizing all clan armies into cognizant combat units, this job required more mathematical skills than it did command skills, as he actually commanded very little, he more crunched numbers to organize the men)

Comhairleoir duiRuire (Advisor to the King, technically, he was less of an advisor, and more of a stenographer. His duty was to copy down all important events in the king's life, including things said that the 'advisor' found interesting or important, to ensure the king's legacy. However, they were also mathematicians and trained commanders, who would lead armies for the king if needed)

Claíomh duIompróir (Bearer of the Sword, the king's personal champion. This man was expected to be the greatest single warrior in Ireland, and also the greatest war leader, aside from the king {who was always expected to be the best, it's part of how they were elected})

Aochaith Peaca (another religious title, One Who Eats Sin, like an Irish grand inquisitor, except his duty was to rally people to fight against Protestants, and instead of personally punishing heretics {there was no legal execution in Ireland for civilians, no matter the crime, though soldiers, including spies and such, would be executed}, he encouraged the populace to do it themselves)

Brehonmór (Great Judge, all of the Brehons (Judges) in Ireland answered to him. He was responsible for resolving high level legal disputes, such as the Ruire deciding to sue one another over some percieved slight, his job was to ensure they did not come to war over it, and resolved it peacefully)

Madra duiRuire (Dog of the King, while it may sound derogatory in English, this was a huge compliment to be given this title. It's purely ceremonial, but it did provide the recipient with many servants to assist them in running their affairs, possible acumen increase?)

Madra Aimiréal (Dog Admiral, essentially a 'Grand Admiral', the head of not only all naval operations, but spies, assassins, and other clandestine operations)

Dead Moroz
11-30-2004, 12:14
Lithuania should be the way it is done in EC's map. It was easy to invade and its borders are rather very acurate.
Disagree. Lithuania shouldn't be that huge region it was in MTW and in EC's map. You confuse state and national borders. Lithuanians dwelled in small territory, close to present day territory of Lithuania. But they had large state - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia - which consisted of many small regions. It was the big mistake that there was only one big region of Lithuania in MTW. Let's not continue this bad tradition!

Lithuania MUST be split into at least 3 regions:

- Lithuania (national territory of Lithuanians);
- Polotsk (former Russian principality of Polotsk; very important town in conflicts between Russia and Polish-Lithuanian state);
- Belarus (national territory of former Kievan Rus Slavs).

There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.

Eastside Character
11-30-2004, 22:04
I agree 100% with you Dead Moroz. Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a name of a state, which was further split into many Voivodships. I think the split in 3 is fair. Besides RTW is quite a bit different from MTW the way an opponent can invade your province. It can go straight to your capital, not paying much attention to other regions it passes. And controlling the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as a whole was never that easy for a conqueror. It's simply too vast a territory to be easily subdued.


There should be also Galicia (not sure in spelling) - the territory around modern Lviv.
There is Ruthenia, as I believe Galicia is a bit older name and refers to slightly different territory (not only Ruthenia but also large part of Lesser Poland with Krakow).

Regards,
EC

cegorach
12-01-2004, 09:49
SENAT

I believe we should use it and all three auto-allied factions slots as efficient as possible, so it means that ALL THESE SLOTS ( senat + 3 factions) should be used.
We want as many factions as possible, I believe.

It means that it SOULDN'T BE Ottomans + Tatars + Moldavia, but either HRE or Catholic states ideas.

I believe that Spain + Hapsburgs + the Knights + Pope is better than
HRE ( Hapsburgs + Saxony + Brandenburg or similar), because actually very many of the wars fought at that time were between the countries of HRE and this way we will have HRE expanding not fighting numerous 'cvil wars' as it was in reality.


Cegorach ~;)

SwordsMaster
12-01-2004, 14:33
Another general consideration about France:

To reflect huguenot unrest an so on, we should allow in the Huguenot provinces some sort of building that adds up greatly to the cultural penalty and thus to unrest.

Alternatively what we could do is make a Huguenot France as a country vassal of the normal France and tie the war to some building construction event (say a big cathedral or something).

Just brainstorming tho, we have to address the issue I believe and that was the first thing that came into mind...

SwordsMaster
12-01-2004, 17:29
cegorach, check this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=642126#post642126)
out. It might come handy as it allows us to specify VERY clearly the conditions under which to build a unit. And how to make them region-specific and so on.

Eastside Character
12-01-2004, 23:59
MAP NEWS

I've been working on a map lately, added some regions here in there. In The Netherlands, Eastern Europe, Germany, and a couple more here and there. Screens presenting there regions will be soon. In the meantime, you can see screens showing what I'm doing with the added Northern Europe (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/mapUpdate01.html). I will get in further north, as some of you here advised, so that it will be possible to go from Sweden to Finland on foot.

I have an idea: I've been reading that thread about the triple alliance and the Senate thingy, and I think I have to change my mind. I'm saying it here as I have some other conclusions connected with it. I think the option with the Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States is a good one. I think it's better to have one faction representing states such as Saxony, Brandenburg, Bavaria etc. similarly to (Greek Cities in RTW), than to use some other faction slots for many one-province factions. There also should de some few strong rebel type regions in Reich.

As Cegorach previously mentioned, we cannot afford to leave even one faction slot empty, and the main flaw of the muslim idea is I think that such alliance would not make much difference in the game as only the Ottomans would be a challenge for their foes. While when attacking some weak german state you would not only be in troubles with the Emperor and the local ruler, but aslo with Pope and Spanish Habsburgs. Pretty realistic I'd say.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 01:50
Good work! the map looks quite satisfying.

And you might have a point about the Alliance. Lets see what other say. I like the idea. Altho that removes the irony of having a "muslim" "papacy". Ah well....

Ranika
12-02-2004, 11:14
In retrospect, Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran would be a good 'heroic' Irish commander. After assassinating his treasonous brother Aedhan, he led the defense of the Aran Islands and the Burren for many years, successfully defeating numerous uprisings, and English invasions, with vastly inferior forces and outdated weaponry and armor for much of that time, until the Spanish and French both gave him a large gift of rifles and swords (crafted in the Irish style, showing an amount of appreciation and respect for him) for his men.

Malachai MacDomnall Ui Machoran, (1564 - 1645, he actually sort of disappeared, he wandered off into the hills singing and no one saw him again)
Command; 5 (Malachai was a decent quality commander, but it was other attributes that made him a good leader)
Piety; 7 (Malachai was a deeply religious man, one of the reasons he grew to dislike his brother)
Loyalty; 4 (Malachai loved Ireland dearly, enough that it pushed him over the edge to learn that his brother was an English pawn)
Acumen; 5 (Malachai was a good mathematician, but not nearly as much as his brother, and he refused to use non-Irish systems of measurement for anything, so trade was badly slowed due to having to work things through the very...very unique 'Gaelan' system of measurements)
Dread; 4 (Much like Aedhan, Malachai was a terrifying figure, tall and imposing, and near merciless in the destruction of his enemies on the field, but was a truly honorable man to his prisoners, treating them well, and always doing his best to offer their master's reasonable ransoms)

Vice/Virtue;
chivalrous3; This should do the trick.

eadingas
12-02-2004, 11:53
" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 12:42
Well, cegorach said that the papacy would be in for sure, so we give them some power.

And besides the rewards for accomplished missions can be changed I believe, so I dont see the problem

Eastside Character
12-02-2004, 12:44
" Papacy, HRE, Spain, and ... Electoral States"

What is it with you guys and Papacy? Papacy is too weak in that period. Did Pope have the power to grant his followers an 'exotic unit'? Did he have the power to assign _important_ offices? Did anybody listen to the Pope in XV c. anymore? The last 'crusade' was well over 50 years ago, in Varna, and ended in disaster because nobody cared. The Pope only has as much power over HRE as they allowed it themselves...
Now, Imperial Court or Reichstag, did have actual power over the german states, and could do all these things. I don't think Brandenburg and Saxony should be in the same faction, their interests quickly became too conflicting - in 30 years war Saxony was allied with Sweden against the Empire, how do you want to represent that if all Electors become one faction?

As for the Pope, he doesn't have to be granting anything, as we can prevent him from giving any valuable gifts. The offices can also be altered so they won't change the gameplay at all.
I agree Pope had no real power then, but if I have to choose Pope or Reichstag, its the first one.
It's so because as I said before I think it's not quite sensible to make a couple of one-faction states with no chances of survival in conflict with some of their major neighbors. I really think it's much better to have a collective faction representing allied states, or states with common goals, foes, friends. If (because I myself don't know much about German history) Brandenburg and Saxony happened to be enemies at some point in the past, then one of them will have to be made rebel and the other would go to the Electoral States. I know it's kinda unfair for the faction which would be made rebel, but you have to remember we have only 21 faction slots. Adding one more german faction complicates the whole faction assigning situation quite a bit.

I don't remember if there were already decisions been made as to what are the possible factions here, as I think for RTW we have to rework the list a bit. So a list of factions I think are possible:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.
27. Knights Hospitallers

So these are my ideas, what are yours?
I'm hoping we can work this out together. It would be a step forward if we decided about faction-arrangement.

And I aslo want to say that I'm not sure if my ideas are always good, but I'm doing it so that we can have a point to discuss and come to some conclusions profitable for this mod.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 12:58
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name)

Fez maybe? The problem with that one is that despite the fact I researched it a good bit during the summer, I couldnt find any info before the XIX cent at all. And even those I couldnt read coz it was written in whatever Fez language is.

eadingas
12-02-2004, 13:12
09. The Papacy
15. Republic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc.

Hmm, wouldn't that make a better Senate+Rome set, BTW?
And the Senate faction will always be 'wasted'. It's almost unplayable, only playable if you are willing to fight against the hard-coded disabilities this factions has... it's single-province in the vanilla game and it works well - as long as it's surrounded by allies (which Imperial Court or Reichstag - or Pope+Italians - would be)
And, as much as I like Ukraine and the Cossacks, should they get their own faction for the time period of this mod?... should be strong rebels... the Cossacks always rebelled and fought for independence, but were always too weak to grant it for themselves. There was never a 'free Ukraine' state except for short periods of bloody-quelled insurgencies...so it would be a bit of wishful thinking to give them that independence in the game...

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 14:08
Sorry for Spamming,

Heres my suggestion working on ECs list which Im quite happy with.

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. The Cossacks (make rebel)
12. Crimean Khanate
13. Switzerland (make rebel as well, with a BIG garrison army and low unrest)
14. Denmark
15. Repubic of Venice
16. Republic of Genoa (make rebel)
17. Hungary/Transilvania[/color]
18. Electoral States
19. Moldavia
20. Brandenburg
21. Portugal
22. Georgia
23. Persia
24. Scotland
25. some north african muslim country in Morocco (cant remember the name) (make rebel)
26. some Italian state like Tuscany, Savoy or Lombardy etc. (either include with the POPE or rebel)
27. Knights Hospitallers

and a few more coz we are still over the top

eadingas
12-02-2004, 14:17
Leave out Knights (talk about a weak, single-province state... but can rebels build fleet?) and Moldava (they never expanded on their own, only as protectorates of Turkey or Poland, so making them rebels is enough) and you're left with 20. Replace Crimeans (same thing as with Moldava - since 1478 they were never independent) with Saxony.

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 14:43
Sounds good to me, althoug I have to say I was expecting to see some vassal-relationship between Turkey-Crimea or Turkey-Moldavia. Ah, well...

On another note, remember the post about huguenotes I wrote?
I just thought that if we make a separate huguenote state (which I dont really think possible but hey!) we could make them vassals of both England and France so when war between England and France starts they have to choose.

eadingas
12-02-2004, 14:58
If we didn't have the limit, Moldavia and Crimea would be a fine addition, but since we have to choose, I'm pretty sure they have to go. Crimea acted sometimes like a sovereign nation, but as soon as the Khan's actions started to go against Sultan's will, he was coming to Crimea, removing him and put another ruler without even as much as a symbolic fight. I don't think there is a way to represent this relation in game engine other than simply having Crimea as part of Ottomans, but maybe with separate units and buildings for that region?
As for the Huguenots... it would be fun to have them... but don't they appear too late in game to have their own faction from the beginning? It will be very hard to represent Reformation with the game engine as it is... other than through buildings and traits, we have no way of inducing rebels at a certain point in the game and who would want to build a building that gives him increased unrest?
(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod, or to something else?)
(also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 15:20
(BTW, are Marian Reforms changed to Reformation for this mod

I believe so, yes.

I think that, as we cant have them as a faction, we could just have a "Huguenot" hidden resource that would add up to unrest say +20, and besides make them very rebellious provinces.


also, remember that at the time Hugenots didn't call themselves that. They used the name 'Reformees', and Hugenots was a derogatory name used by their enemies)

~D Yeah, all i know about them comes from French and Irish sources, so.... Im inconsciously biased.

Eastside Character
12-02-2004, 17:19
The Crimean Khanate will have to be in. It's not merely a one province faction like Saxony for that matter, but a three province state. It played a signifficant role in the wars of Russia, Poland and sometimes Turkey. Besides their army was very specific and original (they were the followers of the Golden Horde and the Mongol Empire) what cannot be said of Saxon army. If there are Cossacks included as a separate faction, and there is a discussion about Hugenots, I sincerely believe there can be no discussion whether or not to include Tatars. They could be a turkish protectorate tho. Just as the Cossacks are going to be a polish protectorate.

I'm not saying Saxony has to go, but all in all it was signifficantly less important than the Crimean Khanate.

I was wondering if Portugal has to be in - it was most of the time under spanish control. And I too think the Hospitallers should not be included, they were just insignifficant minor faction, and they could only occupy Rhodes as Malta is too small to make it a region in its own rights.

Moldavia is not a must as well, I agree it can be made rebel.

Well I just looked at SwordsMasters list and have to say I agree with his suggestions about Cossacks, Genoa, Switzerland, so we would be left with:

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Repubic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transilvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony (ah well or any other suggestion: perhaps some collective italian faction like Electoral States is Germany, or any other)
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

And SwordsMaster, I don't consider this a spam - we're trying to work out a sensible and reasonable compromise here, hence we have to have a clear situation. A list makes things clear.

Regards,
EC

eadingas
12-02-2004, 17:42
Ah! somehow I didn't notice Portugal on the list. You're right, Portugal doesn't have to be a faction, not in a game that concerns only Europe. Even as independent, it NEVER expanded or fought any wars in Europe or anything... this is why it had to expand through colonies. It can start as rebel - the Spanish didn't 'conquer' it (in game terms) until 1580. So we can have Crimea back this way.

SwordsMaster
12-02-2004, 17:57
oh, well, but I somehow consider Portugal more important than Saxony, as it was very closely linked to Spain in the diplomatic sense, marriages, treaties, civil wars, etc, but I guess if we need that free slot we could just give them a strong garrison and leave them rebel.

@EC, I meant Spamming as I poste 2 post with some 5 min difference in between.

Eastside Character
12-02-2004, 18:20
The list I last posted makes it possible for both Portugal and Saxony to be in.

There are ofcourse other possibilities. I think if Cegorach reads this what we're now discussing, he wont like getting rid of Cossack faction. First of all they have never started a country. They were either hired to armies and then happy; or left alone which caused them making troubles, rebelling.

The Khmelnytsky Uprising wasn't the first, there were many more before, the situation that that one time it kinda worked out, I think can be compared to a situation in game where one of yours provines rebells and your eastern neighbor takes it few turns later as you're weakened by constant warfare...

I'm saying this now, because I'm leaving for 3 days tomorrow and wont be able to confront Cegorachs disapproval for the idea of making Cossack rebels.

It might be I'm going to come here again tonight, and perhaps with some fresh screens, but it's not sure yet so I may just as well not come.

See you around crew.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-03-2004, 12:15
well, but IMHO, as a faction, cossacks are less important than Portugal, Saxony or any other "formal" faction. And we have to remember that we HAVE to choose.

@cegorach Is there anything else you need about spanish units? unit desc or something?

If you do, could you please post a list of thing that need to be done? As I said before I have no accounts of what I did and what I didn't prior to mid-October.

commieanarko1986
12-03-2004, 23:07
Please don't make the Cossacks a rebel faction. It is true that were not the largest or most powerful of the other nations in the mod, but in comparison to the Crimean khanate they were a more important force to be reckoned with. I mean what about Georgia, and Scotland, I mean were they really that important on their own? And the Knights too, I mean, how powerful or important were they?

I have been faithfully following this mod for a long time, although I haven't started posting in the forums until recently, specifically so I could play as the Ukraine/Cossacks, please please please don't make them a rebel faction.

eadingas
12-03-2004, 23:44
Sorry, but that is all they ever were in that time period - rebels. Very strong, very nasty and surely a force to be reckoned with, but rebels nonetheless, not a 'state' or a 'faction' in any sense. An archetypal rebels, so to speak, as well as a solid source of mercenary force for both Poland and Russia...

commieanarko1986
12-04-2004, 19:13
rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.

commieanarko1986
12-04-2004, 19:19
The Cossacks certainly were a faction, they less organized and not very european in nature but yes they were a faction/nation. During the Thirty Years' War, and both before and after, many Western nations tried to form treaties and alliances with them. Although in smaller numbers, they fought in the 30YW, at first with the Catholics, and then with France. Ivan Sirko, one of the most famous of all cossacks even fought in the 30yw. Unlike scotland, or the tartars, this was a war they joined as a free nation, not as an at of rebellion, they weren't being pushed by other nations into joining either, it was a decision made by the cossacks for themselves.

True, they were not as sophisticated or as organized as most European nations/factions, however they were a faction/nation. They were just a very different one.

SwordsMaster
12-04-2004, 19:52
rebels, yes, but so was scotland, more or less, and ireland, and the knights and the tartars

of all of them, the Cossacks were the most significant in Europe during that period.


Disagree. Ireland are included in the mod as rebels so no discrimination going on there. The knights were also a faction with some independent tradition at the time, nonetheless the lack of space means we cannot include them either.
Scotland was indeed a faction and a pretty important one. The kings of England actually descend from a scottish dinasty (I can be wrong here).

The cossacks DESERVE a place in the mod that is right and they were going to be included (as were the knights, etc) but there is no space available. Maybe after some sort of patch is released to allow more space we can have them in.

Of course western nations tried to ally with them, they were a blade under the russian belly, that was VERY useful to destabilize the russians and/or the tartars.

commieanarko1986
12-04-2004, 19:59
Why don't you make the Crimean Khanate the rebel faction instead? They were essentially puppets of the Turks with little real independance, even if they did start wars on their own. Besides, who was going out of their way to form alliances with the tatars, apart from the cossacks who were willing to accept just about anyone as an ally at the time. If a country wanted peace with the crimean khanate they had to get an alliance with the turks, not the crimean tartars.

SwordsMaster
12-04-2004, 20:32
Ok, now consider it objectively:
Who would you set as REBEL? A faction that is a remaining of the Mongol empire, mayb vassalized by the Turks, but an independent faction with different fighting stiles, etc...

Or a band of rebels and criminals who fled Russia, Poland and mixed themselves with the population in the area.Who build a fort in the river and fought the Tzar, the king of Poland and the Tatars because they wanted to recruit the cossacks into their armies. Did the cossacks have an administration? an official currency? Taxes?

Yet again, Im not saying they dont DESERVE to be in the mod, but just that if we have to choose, and we HAVE to choose, the cossacks are not the ones to get the slot.

Maybe If Cegorach considers that Saxony can be left out coz their weapons, etc is similar to the German states, the cossacks would get the slot.

Regards.
SM

Eastside Character
12-04-2004, 21:40
I agree with all that SwordsMaster here said about the Cossacks. I don't think I need to remind everyone once again who the Cossacks really were and what are the arguments as not to include them as a faction. Instead what I want to say is that they have to be in this Mod anyway, but not as a faction, but as different regional units, rebel forces always present at the start of any campaign (as they were always there through out this mods time period) and probably as mercenaries. And in this way, they would resemble themselves much more accuratelly.

I'd like to have a go with them too commieanarko1986, but including them would mean getting rid of another faction. Only some german faction could be thought as a potential candidate to be out, but it'd better not be so. Georgia, although not particularly important from your point of view, was a country strong enough to withstand Ottoman campaigns and preserve its independence. This, and a fact the mod actually needs them (they will fights with the all mighty Ottomans, hence will balance their power and still not crush it) makes Georgia a player on our political map.

Regards,
EC

cegorach
12-05-2004, 13:10
Factions

01. Austrian Empire (HRE)
02. The Netherlands
03. The Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth
04. Spanish Empire
05. Ottoman Empire
06. France
07. England
08. Sweden
09. The Papacy
10. Russia
11. Crimean Khanate
12. Denmark
13. Republic of Venice
14. Hungary/Transylvania
15. Electoral States
16. Saxony
17. Brandenburg
18. Portugal - replaced with Cossacks,
19. Georgia
20. Persia
21. Scotland

My thoughts:

18. Portugal - slot replaced with Cossacks,

Portuagal really didn't matter much for the rest of europe, it was doomed to be quite isolated and expanded only overseas. It wasn't really possible for them to expand in the continental europe,unless they would defeat Spain somehow, which was far too difficult.
Cossacks are really different - it was one of key factions, even though semi-independent.
Its importance was recognised by many countries - Poland, Russia, Tatars, Turkey, HRE, Sweden and Hungary. Notice that Cossacks together with Tatars were able to mobilise huge forces and change the balance of force in eastern europe forever.
Actually Cossacks were much more important ground and naval power than Georgia or Brandenburg for most of this time ( 1480-1700), so I see no reason not to place them in this mod.

Second - I have spent A LOT OF TIME searching for sources and people who could help me with this mod, especially when it comes to units, and I found some.
The latest 'discovery' is Sad Ronin, and I actually proposed him to support this mod not any other, rival mod ( like Citadel TW) and I am not going change my mind when it comes to this.
He will present some of his ideas here later, I have seen some of these and found them more than interesting, certainly useful enough not to support the idea to remove the Cossacks from this mod.

19. Georgia

Pretty modest piece of information I have about this faction, but it is one of these 'key factions' so should be in the mod, I believe.

20. Persia

It will take some time to find something about it or someone who will do it - anyone from Iran here ?


Knights Hospitallier

Although small, one-province faction it was a very formidable naval power. I hope, however that rebel fleets could affect the game in similar way. Anyway we will have to make the Papacy quite powerful in the sea, and possibly give them Rhodes as well ( or for HRE, maybe).
I don't know if it is possible to implement, though.



The rest is rather all right, in my opinion.


and @eadingas

Moldavia DID expand on its own, around 1480 they were really quite important - most of my moldavian units come from this period, although they won't get their own slot.

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)

Silver Rusher
12-05-2004, 13:36
You still need to get rid of one faction there though, game limit is 20. (excluding slaves, which HAVE to be slave and nothing else, or the game doesn't work)

You can't just take the rebel slot and give it to another faction. You do know that, don't you?

SwordsMaster
12-05-2004, 13:48
hmm, maybe as Persia doesnt have enough background to exist yet, we could give the Persian slot to the Cossacks.

Anyway, I strongly think Portugal was far more importand from the European point of view than the Cossacks.

Portugal was also campaigning in N.Africa, ruled the Spanish economy (most of the banks were owned by portuguese men), also it was an ally in the truglle with the Protestants and a REALLY strong naval power, thatis apart from their sheer income from trade overseas.

All the cossack material doesnt have to be lost, we can use most of it making the cossack rebels.

Anyway, I´ve gathered afew more images we could use in different informative scrolls and other random images, I´ll send them to you later.

Regards

Ranika
12-05-2004, 14:23
Scotland should most definitely not be rebels, considering that the United Kingdom came about as a result of a Scottish king (King James) annexing England into a single kingdom with it, after becoming king of both Scotland and England.

The Irish should be rebel. I'd like to see it otherwise, but in all reason, given the limit, they did not have much effect (as a nation) outside of a very long war with England. However, they did have numerous secondary points, and I still think the Spanish/French should get an Irish ancillary, or possibly some Irish named commanders, or even Irish troops trainable in some regions, specifically in Leon and in Aquitane, where there were actual offices to sign up Irish immigrants into special units, maybe even just have a structure for them available in large/huge cities, or have a port required (since it was connected to ports, where the Irish were free to sign up upon disembarking, but not actually required, could also give a small pop growth boost)? Could even be the structure required to give commanders in the city aforementioned Irish ancillary. However, they're discussed here at length because of their unique military, and the fact that the Spanish and French hired so many of them, and held them in very high esteem (not actually unlike Cossacks, I should think), and that they may possibly, later, be added to the M:TW version, though that'd be far off. The Irish as a nation would really only matter as an enemy of England, and ally to France and Spain, but aside from those things, it was a major trade port, but it did not engage in wars in Europe as the Irish nation, it did that as mercenaries and soldiers in exile.

The Cossacks I'd be vaguely ambivalent about. They would be an interesting faction, but wouldn't top the list of factions I'd add. I would think maybe ditching Saxony might be viable though, and putting in Cossacks instead. However, I do think Portugal was pretty important, and more so than the Cossacks. I'd think dropping Saxony, since it'd be pretty much identical to Germany, would work. Persia I know waaay too little about in this period to offer an opinion.

commieanarko1986
12-05-2004, 18:25
Is it possible to make perhaps a patch or two versions for this mod, one with cossacks as rebels and one with portugal or saxony or something else as rebels?

cegorach
12-06-2004, 11:52
Slaves... Ahrrrr

So we need a pool.

In my opinion Persia will have to go, but + what ?

Persia + Portugal,

Persia + Saxony,

Persia + Georgia ( Russia will have to guard its south more carefully)
or what else ?


@patch

This is a good idea. We could call it Georgia patch, Portugal patch or Saxony patch or whatever.
I am still not sure if it is easy to implement.


@Swordmaster

I did get it, thanks !



regards Cegorach/Hetman :book:

SwordsMaster
12-06-2004, 12:36
Well, if we HAVE to live with the Cossacks, then I think Saxony is the one that should be out: their units are similar to the German ones, and they could do as Rebels without much trouble.

The patch seems like a good idea to me.

Eastside Character
12-06-2004, 18:58
Persia + Portugal,

Persia + Saxony,


Depends on the period I think. Will this be only one campaign (1480-1700)mod? If yes, then I think Saxony wasn't that important at the end of the 15th century. If there is any later campaign then its bye bye for Portugal. Georgia was there all the time and plays a role in "the Ottomans vs. The Rest of the World" conflict.

New sneak preview: Northern Germany and the Netherlands (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/nethgerm.html) .

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-06-2004, 20:08
LOL, I love the sight of Berlin with that Double headed axe flag ~D .

Great work EC,
question are you reworking the geography as well? As the RTW map isn't all that accurate...

Eastside Character
12-06-2004, 21:11
Great work EC,
question are you reworking the geography as well? As the RTW map isn't all that accurate...
Yes, I do. Mostly its adding/deleting/adjusting rivers, clifs, sometimes mountains. I erased all the forest too. I will place them after all the regions' capitals are placed and decided upon. But in general I rework everything step by step.

I seek good info (preferably good maps) on French regions now. Any help would be welcomed.

I was also thinking that if Persia isn't going to be included it'd be perhaps a good idea to clip off a bit of map in the east. I think it's better than to create several rebel regions with little general importance.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-06-2004, 21:28
I guess you don´t mean modern day France ;P That would be too easy.

I´ll see what I can do. I just emailed cegorach a 1660 map of Africa, I can email it to you as well if you want me to. Its pretty small tho...

Edit: Found a few maps of the 1600s, If you could give me an email adress I can send them to you. Free some space tho. They are political-military maps, so you could refer to a modern atlas for geography.

Link to a useful page (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://home.att.net/~richardwerner/images/fra028s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://home.att.net/~rnwerner/map2.html&h=389&w=500&sz=117&tbnid=bhlIKQaxc30J:&tbnh=98&tbnw=125&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3DFrance%2B1600%2Bmap%26hl%3Des%26lr%3D)

Eastside Character
12-06-2004, 21:40
I guess you don´t mean modern day France ;P That would be too easy.
You're right in your guessing.

Regards,
EC

Ellesthyan
12-06-2004, 22:17
EC, I absolutely love your work on the Dutch part of the map! However, the geocraphics (sp?) aren't exactly right. Allright, the Netherlands had a grand load of swamp, but it also had a grand load of fortifications. IIRC, it is not possible to build a fort in a swamp. Besides that, movement through a swamp is very slowly, quite contrary to realistic movement in the low lands. Please remove it and replace it with good fertile land. A little swamp in Holland is possible, though. Amsterdam was a coastal city, as I see you've done with Lubeck and Stettin already. Replace the current port with the city and put the new port at the top of Holland (to represent the importance of Texel). The port of Utrecht would ideally lie a little more eastern (ain't I a nitpicker ~D) on the place of Kampen. The port of Groningen (the third port of the Netherlands? Ah well, they were a seatrading faction...) would lie a little north east of the town.

An absolute must would be adding the IJsel, a river flowing from the Rhine a little right of Utrecht to the Zuiderzee by Kampen. Holland saved itself from French occupation by the Roy du soleil with the aid of his worst enemy and best friend; water. They would set huge parts of land under water to make it impossible for the enemy to reach the provinces of Amsterdam and Utrecht. The French could not pass the Waterlinie and had to wait for winter and ice. I know it's not possible to implement that in the game, but adding the river IJsel will make the difficulty of actually reaching the important cities clear. As the Allied forces at the battle of Arnhem in 1944 noticed... Anyway, a ford southwest of Utrecht is imo the only place where the rivers can be passed by a huge army. It may give the Netherlands a huge advantage, but in reality it was their only actual defence for a good 300 years (from early 17th century to mid 20th century). All that will make land trade a little insignificant. Well, that's how things were here! Nearly all inland trade and transport would go via rivers, good roads were few until far beyond the time frame.

But beside these so tiny corrections, your work looks fantastic! I can't wait to see more :beam:

eadingas
12-06-2004, 22:56
Didn't the Dutch coast change a bit through history? I'm not sure if it's something that would matter significantly on a map of that scale though...

Ellesthyan
12-06-2004, 23:36
Eadingas, you are absolutely right. A multitude of dykes and polders were created during the time frame, the map of Northern Holland would change radically. Dykes would break, islands would move, lakes would dissapear. However, as this map is rather huge, it is already impossible to make Zeeland into islands... I fear it is just too insignificant.
However, a little Leeghwater event would be nice. (Adriaan Leeghwater, a famous man in the Netherlands. Created many "polders" especially in Holland; he would use mills to pump the water out of lakes into deep but small canals. The former water would then become a very fertile land, although uninhabitable due to it being under sea level and it therefore being too wet to live on.)

eadingas
12-06-2004, 23:46
Make him a named ancillary available only to Dutch, that will add to management and/or grain trading...

cegorach
12-07-2004, 10:37
I requested for our own sub-forum, just to save some time - I don't have too much time to be spent in this forum and this way we will coordinate our work more easily.

For sure we will have our own webside and forum, but it is going to help somehow.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
12-07-2004, 21:43
Sup gentlemen,

I have had a few problems with my computer, so i wans't able to post for sum time.
Am i still the webmaster? ~;) If i am, i still require the background picture and the banner that i asked a long time ago, can't remember the size, so please check my last post here...


About the faction slots: My personal opinion is, as a good patriot that i am ~:) , is for Portugal to be included, however, i understande the fact that, during the XVI and XVII, Portugal lost it's importance at the European level, and did not interfere in any european conflict (as an independent country that is).

Only during the restoration period, Portugal engaged in a war agaisnt Spain, which the victory was only possible due to the fact that Spain was facing the 30 years war and was also fighting to control a rebel region (i'm sorry the name doesnt come to my mind now).

D. João tried to stablish a diplomatic alliance with France, however it was refused, possibly due to the fact that we were still officially allied to the British.

So this means that Portugal had a very small roll in Europe during this period.
However, your forgeting one thing: Portugal was still, in theory at least, one of the major global powers (having lost the supremacy to Spain and Holland).
We still controled Brazil, Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde, Guiné, Timor, Goa, Damão, Macau and other territories over seas.

Also, during the period of Spanish political dominace we still conserved some independence and economical power of our own. The Portuguese fought many of the Spanish enemies (such as Holland) during this period, many times without any spanish support, and still fighting for Portuguese interests (because we were fighting for our land). In Brazil ocurred many battles agaisnt the Dutch.

On those battles you would see only Portuguese and Brazilian soldiers, never spanish: What i mean with this, is that, we can include many Portuguese Historical battles apart from those with Spain and those in Northern Africa (Alcácer Quibir must be in, even if there isn't Portugal as a faction).

I also think that it would be interesting to make a restoration Campaign, i'm willing to do this stuff all by myself if necessary.
But of course, i understand the limitations of the game engine. I'm in favor of a patch, making it possible to choose the faction.

Cheers, ~:cheers:

Edit: I posted whitout reading my email. I don't require the background anymore, but i still need the banner. Thank you.

Eastside Character
12-07-2004, 23:42
EC, I absolutely love your work on the Dutch part of the map! However, the geocraphics (sp?) aren't exactly right. Allright, the Netherlands had a grand load of swamp, but it also had a grand load of fortifications. IIRC, it is not possible to build a fort in a swamp. Besides that, movement through a swamp is very slowly, quite contrary to realistic movement in the low lands. Please remove it and replace it with good fertile land. A little swamp in Holland is possible, though. Amsterdam was a coastal city, as I see you've done with Lubeck and Stettin already. Replace the current port with the city and put the new port at the top of Holland (to represent the importance of Texel). The port of Utrecht would ideally lie a little more eastern (ain't I a nitpicker ~D) on the place of Kampen. The port of Groningen (the third port of the Netherlands? Ah well, they were a seatrading faction...) would lie a little north east of the town.

An absolute must would be adding the IJsel, a river flowing from the Rhine a little right of Utrecht to the Zuiderzee by Kampen. Holland saved itself from French occupation by the Roy du soleil with the aid of his worst enemy and best friend; water. They would set huge parts of land under water to make it impossible for the enemy to reach the provinces of Amsterdam and Utrecht. The French could not pass the Waterlinie and had to wait for winter and ice. I know it's not possible to implement that in the game, but adding the river IJsel will make the difficulty of actually reaching the important cities clear. As the Allied forces at the battle of Arnhem in 1944 noticed... Anyway, a ford southwest of Utrecht is imo the only place where the rivers can be passed by a huge army. It may give the Netherlands a huge advantage, but in reality it was their only actual defence for a good 300 years (from early 17th century to mid 20th century). All that will make land trade a little insignificant. Well, that's how things were here! Nearly all inland trade and transport would go via rivers, good roads were few until far beyond the time frame.

But beside these so tiny corrections, your work looks fantastic! I can't wait to see more :beam:

I've already made most of the corrections you suggested. Still it is not quite possible to resemble the geographic reality completely, so it's not a sattelite shot.

Generally, my way of doing things is from the most general to the smallest details, which means I'm not gonna spend hours on every little bit of the map perfecting it in separation, but will look at the big picture and adjust it step by step.

Forests will be an important issue as they either blockade the way or enable an ambush to be set. We will have to try to find some historical data on that I think. I hope there is some available around.

There will have to be a reaserch on regions made, to decide their parameters, importance, resources, trading goods, fertility etc.

There will have to be several people researching these things I suppose.


The idea about our own subforum is obviously a very good one.
I already have two map related threads in mind: provincial research(goods etc.), and a one discussing any geographic issues of the map(what regions where etc.). Just ideas, but I think useful ideas.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-08-2004, 20:39
Cegorach,can I suggest Pavia,Nordlingen and Rocroi as major historical battles?

Goth
12-08-2004, 22:47
what about agincourt

Silver Rusher
12-08-2004, 22:51
Agincourt is ages before the starting date of the mod. Look here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=87

cegorach
12-09-2004, 09:48
Cegorach,can I suggest Pavia,Nordlingen and Rocroi as major historical battles?

I can prepare almost ANY battle if I have detailed info about it, of course. ~;)

cegorach
12-09-2004, 09:49
@Count, tHe dEmEnToR

I hope that your mailbox is empty now, baceuse I am sending more new screens now.


The patch should solve out all problems with the 20th faction.


BTW - If you have some detailed info about a historical battle you can send it to me as Ranika did. I have already made the ambush he described.
I want to add 8 historical battles ( 6 are finished ) for the last pre-release of the P&M for the MTW, last before the full beta release
( I have some problems which delayed my progress).

So if you have DETAILED info I can make a battle you like and believe it was interesting, at least a bit.
How detailed ? Check Kircholm 1605 in P&M TW 0.6 - polish commanders are exactly the same who fought there, same with numbers, the map etc.

regards Cegorach ~;)

SwordsMaster
12-09-2004, 11:58
I can prepare almost ANY battle if I have detailed info about it, of course. ~;)


You asked for it: ~;)

Rocroi (http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/Rocroi2.html) there

Nordlingen (http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/Nordlingen2.html) there

Pavia (http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/Pavia2.html) there (note the french losses.

Can it be done so you can play with both sides? I would love to win Rocroi with the spanish

cegorach
12-10-2004, 09:41
Yes it can :charge:

Eastside Character
12-11-2004, 18:20
Hello Team!

I've added the part of the map requested before, that is all the way north further than where Baltic Sea ends. So going on foot from Finland to Sweden is no problem. I have a few questions to our community connected with it:

- should Norway be spit, and if yes where
- how to divide Sweden into regions (their names and names of capitals)
- should we get it a bit more north and make a region for Santa ~;) ~D

I was also thinking, if there was a person out there (team or not) willing and able to get things going here, I could give you a hint of what's to be done. There are loads of things connected with researching the web, and that is what everyone can do. One of such things I was thinking about are the quotations . They can be and I think should be changed for some more appropriate ones... and yeah there are so many other things ...

:charge: do szabel mosci panowie i na kon :charge:

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-11-2004, 19:45
That is actually right, EC... The quotes need to be updated... I´ll look into it...

On a side note, the quotes have to be in English or any other language will do as well? Or both ("other language" and translation)?

Can we have a Christmas edition with Santa as the Senate? ~D

What other things do you need researched?

Eastside Character
12-11-2004, 23:10
On a side note, the quotes have to be in English or any other language will do as well? Or both ("other language" and translation)?

I personally think they should be either in english only, or with translations. Well, if I remember correctly latin was in common usage in the times of our mod in most of Europe, so some latin-english quotations would probably occur. The main idea about quotations in general is that they should be meaningful and interesting, giving the feel of times and wars we're recreating.


Can we have a Christmas edition with Santa as the Senate?

If we only could borrow some of his elves to help us get it all ready before Christmas, then why not! ~;) ~D


What other things do you need researched?

I very much admire your enthusiasm friend, but who if not you would respond. Anyway, since you know everything about Spain and Spanish, I'd first ask you to think about into how many, and what regions should Iberian peninsula be divided.

Regards,
EC

eadingas
12-11-2004, 23:26
Hey, I found this when looking for stuff for EB, but since we're not using, maybe you want it for your Christmas Special :) It's Santa's Nenets Reindeer Cavalry :)

http://land.sfo.ru/eng/images/human/evenb.jpg

Eastside Character
12-11-2004, 23:46
Hold on guys, it turns Santa spam. I stared it, I say we drop it. Let's move to some other important matter. That of cultures references.

Before, we have, so to speak, agreed upon faction arrangement, and about the triple alliance & senate factions. Therefore I conclude we can now discuss cultural relations. What would I propose is:

- Roman - factions as decided
- Greek - eastern europeans
- Barbarian - western europeans
- Eastern - muslims
- Carthage - ?
- Egypt - ?

And so lets work it out now.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-11-2004, 23:58
If I may quote myself ~D :



On Provinces:

The new RTW engine allow more flexibility in this aspect, and the spanish provinces of the XVI cent are wuite different from the roman ones, so here is the list:

-Castilla central province, capital: Madrid (replaces Numantia) in the later campaign after 1560, Toledo before 1560 approx. Very slow pop growth in cities, decent farming income, mines, the richest of all spanish cathedrals (i.e. Very good money from tributes, little trading upgrade, mines, farming upgrades, poor pop. growth).

- Andalucia capital, Sevilla, replaces Corduba. Good pop growth, sensible unrest, poor tax collection, can build the "Torre del Oro" building that allows trade with America. HUGE trading income, good farming lands.

- Valencia: capital, Valencia (replaces Carthage Nova). Good farming, average pop growth, decent trade income, high unrest.

- Aragon: capital Barcelona, VERY POOR pop growth, good trade income, mines, high unrest, average farming.

- Navarre: Capital: Pamplona (replaces Asturica), good pop growth, high unrest, poor trade income, mines, poor farming.

- Sicily: Im not too sure if we should make this one a single province. If so, the capital should be Palermo, if not, let me know and i´ll do some more research.

- Granada:capital:Granada low pop growth, mines, easy defence (mountain passes), good farming, good land trade, poor sea trade (except with morocco). high rebelliousness. (should have the culture penalty no matter what)

- Naples: Same as for Sicily, but Capital: Naples.

- N. Africa. This is a tricky one: the spanish controlled a few cities in N. Africa, but I dont know if that is enough as to make it a province belonging to Spain. You decide.

- I am not sure whether to include Galicia as well as a different province: If it is included, the capital should be Santiago de Compostela, with (possibly) a wonder "cathedral of Santiago". Good farming income, average rebelliousness, good sea trade.


General considerations: the "Torre del Oro" was the buiding where all the gold from America was stored before being distributed among the different places. The buildng is in every postcard of Sevilla so it shouldnt be too hard to find. Anyway I can send it by email. I was thinking that maybe this one could be one of the "wonders" in this period. And give to whoever controls it a bonus similar to the Colossus of Rhodes. Or even bigger as it was the only spanish port allowed to trade with America.

Any thoughts?



About cultures: I suggest a different culture for Spain as the muslim influence was still very strong in some aspects (construction, farming, etc).

Actually I was asking about the language coz there are a lot of poems in spanish written in that age that are REALLY descriptive (about spain obviously), but they sound horrible translated and lose all taste.

eadingas
12-12-2004, 00:09
Remember that number of factions per culture is hardcoded, so you have to fit them so that there will be four "Greek" factions, two "Carthage" ones, one "Egyptian", etc. What's the final list of factions, BTW? It seems to got stuck on choice between Saxony, Portugal, Georgia and Cossacks...

Eastside Character
12-12-2004, 00:44
Remember that number of factions per culture is hardcoded, so you have to fit them so that there will be four "Greek" factions, two "Carthage" ones, one "Egyptian", etc. What's the final list of factions, BTW? It seems to got stuck on choice between Saxony, Portugal, Georgia and Cossacks...
Well I simply want to initiate some constructive discussion here so don't mind that my ideas are not perfect.

About the factions; Cossacks and Georgia are in. There can be patches made for Portugal and Saxony.


About cultures: I suggest a different culture for Spain as the muslim influence was still very strong in some aspects (construction, farming, etc).

This wouldn't be possible because of the triple alliace (Spain,HRE,Electoral States+Pope)- culture relation.

Also for the same reason I think Portugal would look akward being of different culture than Spain, to which it was so stronly "connected"(did they want it?).
The fact that Portugal was strong overseas didn't make it a big thing in Europe.
To make some comparison lets think I want Lithuania in as a Polish ally etc..

Lithuania (Grand Duchy of Lithuania to be more precise) was kinda independent as it was in the Commonwealth, and it joined it volontarily, gave a dynasty, but still had its own parliament, administration, army, wars, and was a powerful nation. From 1385 to 1569 it was pretty much so, later on it was more under polish influence.

But anyway, I don't want Lithuania in mod. This was just an example to compare the arguments. Still I'm not a Portugal hater but only try to make it realistic and for now it seems realistic to me for Portugal to be ruled by Spain.

Regards,
EC

PS.
Oh and thanks a lot for the Spanish info SwordsMaster! ~:cheers:
Quoting yourself, huh. ~D

eadingas
12-12-2004, 12:16
Okay, here's my first proposition. The numbers in brackets show how many factions slots there is per culture.
It's a bit of a problem to come up with this list... If we had Bohemia, for example, it would fit better in the 'Eastern' slot instead of Brandenburg...

Carthage/Eastern Europe (2): Russia, Cossacks
Barbarian/Western Europe (6): Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, England, France, Scotland
Greek/Orient(4): Ottoman Empire, Crimean Khanate, Persia, Georgia
Eastern/Central Europe (3): Poland, Hungary, Brandenburg
Egyptian(1): Venice

Another proposition, based more on religious differences:

Roman/Catholic 1(4): Spain HRE Electoral States Pope
Greek/Protestant (4): Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Brandenburg
Eastern/Catholic 2(3): Poland, Hungary, France
Barbarian/Eastern(6): Ottoman, Crimea, Persia, Georgia, Russia, Cossacks
Carthage/Britain(2): England, Scotland
Egyptian(1): Venice

BTW, remember there are also hard-coded 'tendencies' for some factions to like/dislike each other - and nobody's really sure what they are :( Although hopefully this would get rid of/made moddable in patch...

Silver Rusher
12-12-2004, 12:21
How much work has actually been done on this? I was considering the idea of this mod merging with CTW, simply because the time period is so similar.

SwordsMaster
12-12-2004, 18:45
I prefer the second division eadngas, altho Russia as "eastern barbarian", well... I think the Russians should have the same culture as the cossacks, becuse of the religion and al that.

@EC, got some quotes, translating them.

Zastrow
12-12-2004, 19:00
I was asked by cegorach to come here and help you guys with your Eastern factions, what do you need?

Why isn't Persia in the mod?

~:cheers:

SwordsMaster
12-12-2004, 20:29
I was asked by cegorach to come here and help you guys with your Eastern factions, what do you need?

Why isn't Persia in the mod?

~:cheers:

Becuase we dont have the info. :book: ~;)

Zastrow
12-12-2004, 21:30
What would you like me to start on?

Creating a Persian Faction?

Eastside Character
12-12-2004, 23:17
Becuase we dont have the info. :book: ~;)

I thought its because there is no room for another faction.

And what do you think about:

Roman:
01.-HRE
02.-Spain
03.-Electoral States
04.-Pope

Greek:(eastern europeans)
05.-Russia
06.-Cossacks
07.-Hungary
08.-Poland

Barbarian:(western europeans, mostly protestants-sooner or later)
09.-Sweden
10.-Denmark
11.-Scotland
12.-England
13.-Netherlands
14.-Brandenburg

Eastern:(muslims plus oriental Georgia)
15.-Turks
16.-Tatars
17.-Georgia

Carthage:(roman catholics, but since Spain offen fought France...)
18.-Venice
19.-France

Egypt:
20.-patched factions (Saxony, Portugal, Persia)

There are many ways of doing it, culture-religion bonds have priority but there seems to be no ideal setup. Brainstorming...


What would you like me to start on?

Creating a Persian Faction?

Start with collecting historical data about unit types, famous commanders, possible provinces/capitals, names for characters, some famous people other than commanders but signifficant nonetheless, and it wouldnt be over yet. Happy researching :book: . ~:cheers: ~D


@EC, got some quotes, translating them.

Very good, and what do you think about a little thing like:

"L'etat, c'est moi"
I am the state
- Louis XIV

I believe there are many famous quotes like this, we could use also some famous lines from novels describing our period.

Regards,
EC

Silver Rusher
12-13-2004, 21:51
Instead of rudely ignoring me, could you guys PLEASE answer my last post? It's quite important.

Eastside Character
12-13-2004, 23:03
@Silver Rusher
I think this mod won't merge with no other. I have good reasons to believe Cegorach and the rest of the team thinks pretty much the same. I don't think we need to do that. This would mean too many compromises and all in all it wouldn't be RTW edition of Pike&Musket Mod but something different. Besides, we really can do it on our own.




I was lately a bit bored with the map, so I serched the net a bit for some quotes, look what I've found:

"War is one of the scourges with which it has pleased God to afflict men."
- cardinal Richelieu

"Dulce bellum inexpertis. — War is lovely for those who know nothing about it."
- Erasmus of Rotterdam

"The prince must be a fox, therefore, to recognize the traps and a lion to frighten the wolves."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

"It is much safer for a prince to be feared than loved, if he is to fail in one of the two."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

"Iron hand in a velvet glove."
-Emperor Charles V

"The king reigns, but does not govern"
-Jan Zamoyski

"Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of war".
-William Shakespeare (from "Julius Caesar")

"Has God forgotten all I have done for Him?"
-Louis XIV

"There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards too."
-Fransic Drake

"The king is truly parens patriae, the polite father of his people."
-James I (James VI of Scotland)

"In trust I have found treason."
-Elizabeth I

I think they will do. Ok, back to some map work now.

Regards,
EC

Zastrow
12-14-2004, 00:31
Well I don't have to do much research on the east, its one of my specialties.

Persia is critical to the game, because without it, the Ottomans will have no major Eastern opponet and just be able to swamp Europe. Plus you need some more Islamic factions to make it more fun.

Persia was controlled during this time by the Safavids, who were an Azerbaijan noble family, who converted to Shi'ism, The Shi'ite revolution began in Persia, which overthrew the Timurids, who had weakened after the death of Timur.

In 1501 the first Safavid Shah, Isma'il took power and expanded Safavid power out of Persia into Khorasan and Seistan. However the first century of Safavid power was one of many defeats, it was not intill Shah Abbas I took power that things changed and Persia began really becoming a powerhouse nation.

The Persians commanded a powerful Army, and its people were fervent and dedicated, the Grand Mullah and Imams of Shi'ism held sway over the masses, but the Shah, the upholder and defender of Shi'ism was the true figure of power.

The Safavid Shahs were:

Isma'il 1 1501-1524
Tahmasp 1 1524-1576
Isma'il 2 1576-1578
Muhammad Khudabande 1578-1588
Abbas 1 1588-1629
Safi 1629-1642
Abbas 2 1642-1666
Sulayman 1666-1694
Sultan Husayn 1694-1722
Tahmasp 2 1722-1732
Nader 1732-1736

Their units, were a mixture of Mongol and Persian units, I typically still use the term "Paighan" for their infantry, which technically was the pre-Arabic persian name for Persian infantry, from the days of Xerxes to Khosru I Anushirvan. I do know the Persians did not use Arabic, but rather Farsi, known to the west as Persian, but I do not know if the pre-Arabic Persian terms stuck, but perhaps we could still use them for a more "unique" style to them than the usual Arabic Mamelukes and Ottomans.

The Persians also to my knowledge had "Ghulams" which essentially is Arabic for slave or retainers, whether or not they were combat capable like in Ottomans and Mameluke lands, I cannot say.

Alot of this is sketchy, as there are few details online and that I have of the true Persian make-up, I do know it a blend of 3 major influences:

- Mongol style Light Cavalry and professional forces
- Persian style superb archery and heavy infantry
- Arabic style infantry masses and often irregular forces beyond the Imperial Army

What side you care to protray the most is up to you, but I truthfully cannot say, they have this, this and this, because, well I don't think unless you go into deep archive researching you can find it. However, I can tell you what I suggest they have and although they may not be 105% historical, niether is Rome Total War or any Total War game. At least it'd be badass if not totally historical, because I frankly don't know the Persian Army by the numbers.

Well, I'm willing to assist you with any of your historical knowledge needs to the best of my abilities, if you'd like for me to draw up some Persian names, etc, I can.

SwordsMaster
12-14-2004, 01:38
good info Zastrow, but what about uniforms, units, titles, provinces, etc...


@Silver Rusher: I believe Cegorach has the last word. We were not ignoring you, just letting him answer your question.


@Cegorach
Ive been going thru the unit roster again and realized there was no substitute for the Urban watch line of infantry.
Another unit for Spain:

"Alguaciles" (Urban watch).

The keep the order within a city, usually armed with a pistol, leather cuirass, a sword and a "rodela" (round shield). They shouldnt appear in monstruous numbers although of course they are no match for battle hardened soldiers. This guys are proffessionals, not just rabble assembled to defend their homes, and earn a pay as a semi-military "police" force.

@EC: What about this ones?

"To the question of the officer about how many were we in the annihilated Tercio I answered:
Count the dead."
- Alferez Íñigo Balboa -

"I speak in Spanish to God, In French to my men, in Italian to women, and in German to my horse"
- Emperor Charles V

Eastside Character
12-14-2004, 14:38
@EC: What about this ones?

"To the question of the officer about how many were we in the annihilated Tercio I answered:
Count the dead."
- Alferez Íñigo Balboa -

"I speak in Spanish to God, In French to my men, in Italian to women, and in German to my horse"
- Emperor Charles V

I know them both, only I didn't remember who was the author of the first one. About that quote by Charles V, I thought it was a bit offtopic. It has nothing to do with war, diplomacy, strategy, politics etc. etc. But if you like it and feel it fits, then I won't oppose, all in all it's an interesting quote from the period. But as a rule I think the quotations should refer to the aspects of TW games: warfare, diplomacy, royal family, politics, just as in RTW. There are no quotes there of how Romans lived, but how they fought. :duel:

But keep on doing this SwordsMaster, we gotta work all together ~:grouphug: to make this thing happen.

And whenever any of you is bored and feel like seeing some new map screen shot, just say - I make them everytime I alter the map. That is if you're interested of how is it going to look and if you want to check if its correct (especially if its your region probably). I'm not touching units yet, so it's only map, and yeah WIP of course.

Regards,
EC

SwordsMaster
12-14-2004, 14:47
Charles' quote had to do with the extension of his empire and the problems he had mantaining so many different kingdoms and territories. I think it depicts very well the "unrest" problems in RTW, specially the "cultural penalty" ones.

Anyway, of Course, I would like to see the maps. Can you add the link or is it the same as last time?

cegorach
12-15-2004, 10:56
I didn't get any answer from Barocca so I will ask Duke John for our sub forum.

I have finally made most of work for P&M TW for the MTW and eliminated the strange bug which drove me mad for last 2 weeks. So I will add new unists from High and I even have several free slots to use.
I am seaching for new units now.

@Swordmaster

I believe we have 'urban' infantry - urban and town watch ( halberdiers and weak musketeers), but still it is good you have found thia unit.
Please add something more - as usual singular/plural/description/image stuff. And also - when were they used - I need this info for MTW edition.

BTW You can expect Rocroi ( both sides) in P&M 1.0 or even in P&M 0.7 (soon).

@@Silver Rusher

Noone is ignoring you.

Answer.

I don't think we want to do this. I am against this idea and, as it seems, it is the statement of most of our crew.

I say - we can cooperate, exchange some things ( skins for example) here and there, but our mods are too different. Especially I am rather happy with most of the work which is completed already, but it was really hard to decide what to implement and what to leave or ignore, otherwise we would have 350+ units in our roster...
Besides your mod is more precise when it comes to earlier ( up to 1600) period, and our is better for later ( 1600+) era. Finally your mod starts earlier, almost 100 years earlier, in late Medieval which is obviously not Pike & Shot period of military history.

My/our mod is also, officially, related to the LORDS Modding Community which means that it really is 'the younger brother' of NTW.
I think that we will cooperate with them in close future somehow since we will need some 'very advanced' units from NTW2 exactly as it is in the MTW edition of this mod.

I can't find any reason why not do this with your mod and your team, to a certain extent, of course.

@Zastow

Glad you've answered before Xmas !
If you have something bigger, please send me it cegorach77@o2.pl in about 1mg pieces ( RAR). I have lots of this kind of date in my HDD and I am using it for new units, sometimes.

Actually the more you propose the better the unit list will be, and entire persian faction.
Also one of the most important ideas for this mod are the UNITS, everything about these, starting with names ( original names preferred).
Actually our unit list was created this way
1. someone proposes a unit,
2. we discuss the idea ( sometimes not)
3. it is added to the roster,
4. it is added to the beta version ( in the MTW edition for now).

A very good method of creating the mod, really my favourite since I am too lazy to do this on my own.

See first 2 pages of this thread, I mean Ranika posts - I implemented most of his ideas and even prepared the historical battle he presented
( he sent me all the data necessary to do this).
Prepare this in a similar way and you will see results. Maybe a historical battle as well ?


@EC

I am happy with the last culture/faction list.

Quotes are also very good.


Here are some of my favourite from polish history.

'We don't need a king, we are the Republic'

Chancellor Zamoyski before second election, after Henry left Poland
( 1573?).

"Jurabis aut non regnabis" ( You will never be the king if you won't swear)

Jan Firlej to Henry, when he tried to avoid swearing that he will respect religious tolerance in Poland ( Warsaw Confederacy 1572).

"Venimus, vicimus, Deus vicit"
(I came, I saw, God has won)

king Jan III Sobieski after the battle at Vienna 1683.

And finally see this:

SetTradableGoods:: ID_ANJOU SILK LINEN
SetResources:: ID_ALGERIA GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ANJOU LINEN SILK
//SetResources:: ID_ANTIOCH
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ANTIOCH SILK

SetResources:: ID_AQUITAINE SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_AQUITAINE WINE
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ARAGON MERCENARIES COTTON
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ARMENIA GEMS

SetResources:: ID_AUSTRIA COPPER SILVER SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_AUSTRIA MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_BAVARIA SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BAVARIA MERCENARIES LINEN
SetResources:: ID_BOHEMIA SILVER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BOHEMIA LINEN MERCENARIES GLASSWARE
SetResources:: ID_BRANDENBURG COPPER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BRANDENBURG LINEN MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BRITTANY LINEN
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BULGARIA WINE
SetTradableGoods:: ID_BURGUNDY WINE MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_CARPATHIA COPPER SILVER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CARPATHIA MERCENARIES WINE
SetResources:: ID_CASTILE IRON FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CASTILE SILK
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CHAMPAGNE WINE
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CONSTANTINOPLE SILK GRAIN MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_CORDOBA FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CORDOBA SILK
SetResources:: ID_CORSICA SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CRIMEA GRAIN MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CRETE MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_CROATIA SILVER COPPER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_CYPRUS MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_DENMARK BUTTER FISH MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_EGYPT SPICES IVORY MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_FINLAND FURS
SetResources:: ID_FLANDERS FOREST SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_FLANDERS WOOL SILK MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_FRANCONIA SILVER SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_FRANCONIA MERCENARIES WINE LINEN
SetResources:: ID_FREISLAND FOREST SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_FREISLAND WOOL MERCENARIES SPICES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_GENOA MERCENARIES GLASSWARE
SetResources:: ID_GRANADA SILVER FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_GRANADA SILK COTTON
SetTradableGoods:: ID_GREECE WINE SILK
SetResources:: ID_HUNGARY COPPER SILVER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_HUNGARY WINE
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ILE_DE_FRANCE SILK MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_IRELAND MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_JERUSALEM MERCENARIES OLIVEOIL
SetTradableGoods:: ID_KHAZAR WAX HONEY HIDES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_KIEV GRAIN
SetResources:: ID_LEON IRON FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LEON WOOL
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LITHUANIA WOOD BUTTER HIDES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LIVONIA WOOD BUTTER MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_LORRAINE POTTERY LINEN MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_MALTA MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_MERCIA WOOL
SetTradableGoods:: ID_MILAN SILK MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_MOLDAVIA GRAIN
SetResources:: ID_MOROCCO GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_MUSCOVY FURS LINEN
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NAPLES OLIVEOIL SILK MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NICAEA POTTERY
SetResources:: ID_NORMANDY FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NORMANDY LINEN
SetResources:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA COPPER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NORTH_UMBRIA WOOL FISH MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NORWAY FISH FURS
SetTradableGoods:: ID_NOVGOROD FURS WOOD MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_PAPAL_STATES MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_POLAND SALT COPPER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_POLAND GRAIN LINEN
SetResources:: ID_POMERANIA SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_POMERANIA MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_PORTUGAL FOREST SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_PORTUGAL SPICES DYES MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_PROVENCE MERCENARIES WINE
SetTradableGoods:: ID_PRUSSIA GRAIN MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_RHODES MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_ROME MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_RYAZAN HIDES
SetResources:: ID_SARDINIA SILVER SALT
SetResources:: ID_SAXONY SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SAXONY GRAIN MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SCOTLAND MERCENARIES WOOL
SetResources:: ID_SERBIA GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SICILY SILK WINE MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_SILESIA GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SILESIA GLASSWARE MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SMOLENSK WOOD
SetResources:: ID_SWABIA SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SWABIA WINE COTTON MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_SWEDEN COPPER GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SWEDEN BUTTER WOOD MERCENARIES
SetResources:: ID_SWITZERLAND COPPER
SetTradableGoods:: ID_SWITZERLAND MERCENARIES WOOL
SetResources:: ID_SYRIA IRON
SetResources:: ID_TOULOUSE SALT
SetTradableGoods:: ID_TOULOUSE SILK
SetTradableGoods:: ID_TRIPOLI SUGAR
SetResources:: ID_TUNISIA GOLD
SetTradableGoods:: ID_TUSCANY WINE SILK MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_TYROLIA MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_VALENCIA SILK
SetTradableGoods:: ID_VENICE GLASSWARE SILK MERCENARIES
SetTradableGoods:: ID_VOLGA_BULGARIA FURS
SetTradableGoods:: ID_VOLHYNIA WOOD GRAIN
SetResources:: ID_WALES COPPER
SetResources:: ID_WESSEX FOREST
SetTradableGoods:: ID_WESSEX WOOL


Should be useful for this edition as well, it is quite accurate.
BTW FOREST resource meant colonists for the MTW edition.


Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Eastside Character
12-15-2004, 11:09
I didn't get any answer from Barocca so I will ask Duke John for our sub forum.

I've done it already and Duke John answered this morning that it's YES. We can have our own sub-forum. :charge:


Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
12-15-2004, 11:55
@Swordmaster

I believe we have 'urban' infantry - urban and town watch ( halberdiers and weak musketeers), but still it is good you have found thia unit.
Please add something more - as usual singular/plural/description/image stuff. And also - when were they used - I need this info for MTW edition.


Ok,

"Alguacil" (single man)
"Alguaciles"( many of them).

They united with the local garrison and defeated the english in 1626 (?) when they tried to land in Cadiz.

They were more of a police force than proffessional soldiers, altho they were instructed and trained to fight fiercely individually as opposed to formations. They should have a "horde" type formation, and the officer should have a short staff (sign of his duty) and no "rodela".

Their stats should be similar to those of "rodeleros" only with less armour (armour 2 maybe) and less charge. Instead they would get one pistol shot.

"The alguaciles keep the order within a city. Hard as it is in Spain where every man that considers himself something carries a sword, these men are good individual fighters that know many tricks to win a fight in streets and dark alleys. They are organized in small mobile units to support each other and move swiftly through the urban labiryths."


BTW You can expect Rocroi ( both sides) in P&M 1.0 or even in P&M 0.7 (soon).

Great work!

Also: I though we could start developing and searching for info on officers, standard bearers and the like for the RTW version. But we need to redefine the stats, as the RTW stats are different from MTW. Specially the defensive ones.


BTW, Im I wrong or "Antioch" is a resource as well?

Regards

dclare4
12-17-2004, 04:46
Hi there,

I was just wondering, which cities of Germany are you including? I mean the TYW was full of sieges and there is apparently a set limit of 200 provinces so I'm curious as to the choice of provinces/cities to include in your mod.

Thanks very much,
Clare

cegorach
12-18-2004, 12:10
I need someone to convert the icons in MTW edition from BIFs to LBMs
( i.e. for battles). Anyone ?

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)

Eastside Character
12-21-2004, 14:44
Hi there,

I was just wondering, which cities of Germany are you including? I mean the TYW was full of sieges and there is apparently a set limit of 200 provinces so I'm curious as to the choice of provinces/cities to include in your mod.

Thanks very much,
Clare

Certainly Germany has to get many regions to resemble its complicated political structure. For now the following provinces are being considered:

province name - settlement name (pattern)

Duchy of Bavaria - Munich
Electorate of Brandenburg - Berlin
Duchy of Wurtemberg - Stuttgart
March of Baden - Baden *
Duchy of Brunswick - Brunswick
Duchy of Mecklenburg - Lubeck
Duchy of Schlezwig and Holstein - Kiln
Duchy of Pomerania - Stettin
Electorate of Saxony - Dresden
Upper Palatinate - Nuremberg
Lower Palatinate - Worms
Archbishopric of Cologne - Cologne
Archbishopric of Salzbourg - Salzbourg
Archbishopric of Treves - Treves
Bishopric of Wurzburg - Wurzburg
Bishopric of Liege - Liege
Bishopric of Munster - Munster
Bishopric of Bremen - Bremen
Alsace - Stasbourg
Archduchy of Austria - Vienna
Kingdom of Bohemia - Prague
March of Moravia - Brno
County of Tyrolia - Tridont
Duchy of Styria - Graz
County of Hesse - Cassel
Duchy of Carinthia - Klagenfurt
Duchy of Carniola - Lublyana **
Duchy of Lorraine - Nancy
Royal Hungary - Presburg
Switzerland - Bern
Silesia - Breslau

* - probably will end up merged with Wurtemberg as Baden-Wurtemberg
** - other option is to merge it with Carinthia as Carinthia-Carniola

As you can see there will be plenty of German regions. Still, post your ideas and corrections whenever you see them appropriate. I'd hope some German folks to take a look on the list and say what they think about it etc..

Last few days I've been busy with my job and Christmas-fever-connected matters. Now I got a few days off work so I should be able to do something.

Regards,
EC

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
12-21-2004, 21:50
Hey there,
I'm sorry for my absence, but, as i said before, my computer has had some hardware problems. I haven't been able to work on the template site, since Dreamweaver refuses to run :dizzy2: .

Essencially all i wanted was to tell you that i'm not dead and i havne't forgot this mod. I promised a website, so i'll do it.
Soon i will be able to work on it again.

What about the The Portuguese? Are you adopting the patch system? If you are (and it seems you do) i still have a lot of info that i said i would give.

And i have a question. You plan to use only one Portuguese province?

Cya gentlemen, ~:cheers:

elbanobaron
12-22-2004, 00:23
portugal was not a major european player at this time. portugal was also much more involved in the rest of the world, and for quite some time during the 16th centuary i believe) was politically united with spain. saxony or genoa is in my opinion the best choice , putting france in the egyptian spot and genoa and venice in the carthaginian slots

Eastside Character
12-22-2004, 12:12
portugal was not a major european player at this time. portugal was also much more involved in the rest of the world, and for quite some time during the 16th centuary i believe) was politically united with spain. saxony or genoa is in my opinion the best choice , putting france in the egyptian spot and genoa and venice in the carthaginian slots

That would make the patch idea impossible. I would like to see Genoa in too tho. Genoa might be considered as another candidate for a patch. But before any patch can be made there's a lot of things to do. So for now we have that patch idea, and this is the limitation to be accepted as it gives many possibilities. All in all there will be different versions of this mod.

I was also thinking that each version (with different patched faction) should start at different date. For example Portuguese version would be the early one (at the end of 15th c.), while the one with Saxony could start like in early 1600s or something. This would make each version kinda unique and also more appropriate (different countries were important in different times). What do you think people?

Regards
EC

dclare4
12-24-2004, 13:47
I was just curious how you plan to budget the 200 cities per faction/region. Like if there are a lot for Germany how many will the others be getting?

Thanks,
Clare

SwordsMaster
12-24-2004, 20:02
while the one with Saxony could start like in early 1600s or something. This would make each version kinda unique and also more appropriate (different countries were important in different times). What do you think people?

How many installations would we need?

The versions starting later would have a much shorter timeframe to play.

what we could do is make different campaigns with different factions.

Eastside Character
12-24-2004, 21:53
what we could do is make different campaigns with different factions.

Exactly.


I was just curious how you plan to budget the 200 cities per faction/region. Like if there are a lot for Germany how many will the others be getting?

It yet has to be balanced, but there will be enough provinces for all factions. The number of provinces doesn't always have to be an advantage btw. Bordering with many neighbors means many potential enemies. I'm now putting the campaign file together and editing the map and I'm done with certain areas, like Germany for example. What turns out (after I distributed the regions) is that HRE would control 5 to 10 regions depending on the start date, Electoral States (catholic states) would get about 8, Brandenburg probably 2, and the rest (10 or more) would end up rebel. Still, the shere numbers mean little and following Sun Tzu I could say that in war, numbers alone confer no advantage. And so the aim is to reflect that in mod.

What at this point I personally could say about the general faction-regions ratio is that a faction controlling more than 10 regions should be considered a powerfull one. A faction controlling less than 5 regions would be a minor one. At the same time one has to take into consideration that a 10 province country doesn't have to be all that strong if it has 3 or 4 neighbors who are stronger or even of the same capability.

Regards
EC

Eastside Character
12-24-2004, 22:10
The versions starting later would have a much shorter timeframe to play.

True, but when you think about it, a timeframe 1480-1700 means 440 turns. This is a lot. Campaigns starting at later dates would still be long enough to develop, certainly at least twice as long as in MTW version of the mod. Obviously, winning the game as the Dutch and as the Spanish are two completely different stories and would take different amount of time to be completed, but that's something normal.

Personally I think the approach to the issue how many turns is good and how many is not so good is a very personal matter. For me 200 turns means too much, for somebody else 300 is little and so on. Different campaigns starting at different dates and so lasting different number of turns mean variety (for various playing tastes as I believe).

Regards
EC

Ironside
12-25-2004, 13:23
I've added the part of the map requested before, that is all the way north further than where Baltic Sea ends. So going on foot from Finland to Sweden is no problem. I have a few questions to our community connected with it:

- should Norway be spit, and if yes where
- how to divide Sweden into regions (their names and names of capitals)

Swedish maps. (in Swedish) (http://www.tacitus.nu/svenskhistoria/kartor.htm)
The weird colourations in the begining of out time period is because of an official union (Sweden was quite independant most of the time though) that officially ended 1521.

How many provinces for Sweden-Finland are we talking about here? 2, 5 10?
I can atleast say for the 2 scenario (way too few imao) the capitals should be todays Stockholm and Turku (Åbo at the time). The conquered areas outside Sweden has thier own provinces.

One map works to see 5 provinces (the 6:st was practically wasteland city- wise although trade with the sames was going one there).
maps (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/europe/northerneurope2.html)
It's the one with this info
Main Author: Homann's Heirs
Title/Description: Scandinavia Complectens Sveciae, Daniae et Norvegiae
Publication Info: Nuremburg, 1776
Date: 1776
Scale: 1:4,435,000
Remind you that this one is later than our time period so the borders are a little bit of (and some of the geography ~D ). Svealand got Värmland and Gästrikland included. You can see the areas at this link
Svenska landskap (http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/swe_provinces_map_eng.htm)

The south part of Sweden is called Götaland, capital Jönköping or Kalmar. The middle part is called Svealand, capital Stockholm. The Northern part is called Norrland with the capital Hudiksvall. The Northern inland part is called Lappmark, capital possibly Lycksele. If this part is almost non-existant on your map, then remove it.
The Finnish parts I'm uncertain of, but the capital for the smaller part is Åbo (aka Turku, use Åbo in the game). For the bigger part it's either Viborg (as I said, the borders are a little bit of, it's in Russia now and at that map) Helsingfors (aka Helsinki use Helsingfors) or Tavestehus.

Can you make fortresses? Viborg and current Gothenburg (Göteborg, known then as Älvsborgs fortress) was two very important border fortresses for the Swedes but not big enough city-wise at the time.

It's a problem here with huge provinces though, but I'm not sure how much I can improve it without more provinces. Ten for Sweden-Finland would be nice ~D . Remind you that they would on average be poorer that the average province, so it isn't the riches that is the problem, but the amount left for the rest of the nations.

The Dannish possetions in todays Sweden should be a province with Lund as the capital (Malmö works to) to show the problem and wars Sweden and Denmark had over that area. I'm guessing it would be easiest to call it Skåne because it was most of the region and the most important part of it.

Norway should probably get splitted in two, three pieces. I'm not sure how, but the main cities was Trondheim, Bergen, Oslo and Stavanger.

dclare4
12-30-2004, 12:22
Thats actually one issue I have with the current limit of 200 provinces. Some locations were key fortresses but not necessarily cities of importance -Kolberg, Bergen-Op-Zoom, Phillipsburg for example. In the mod I'm doing I'm torn between including these key fortresses or saving the provinces for a major city. Thats why I'm interested to know how you're parcelling out the provinces for this splendid mod.

best regards,
Clare

SwordsMaster
12-30-2004, 13:20
Just include those fortresses as forts.

Eastside Character
01-02-2005, 10:56
Hello everyone in the new year 2005! ~:cheers:


How many provinces for Sweden-Finland are we talking about here? 2, 5 10?


Something like 10 I believe. Thank you for all those sources btw. The scandinavian provinces I think could be included are:
-Denmark(Kopenhagen)
-Skane(Malmo)
-Ostlandet(Oslo)
-Bergenshus(Bergen)
-Trondelag(Thondheim)*
-Jamtland&Harjedalen(?)*
-Smaland(Kalmar)
-Gotaland(Goteborg)
-Svealand(Stockholm)
-Vasterbotten(Lulea)
-Osterbotten(Uleaborg)
-Finland(Abo)

* - should they be merged as one region?
I also thought that Orebro could get a region, but how to name it?

So for all scandinavia that would be it, but don't forget that Sweden would periodically own not only scandinavian regions like Estonia(Revel), Livonia(Riga), Ingria(Nyen), Kexholm(Kexholm) and some more in Germany past the 30 years war.

Anyway I bought recently a historical atlas which is of great assistance to me, so there are not going to be many calls from me on what regions where etc.. At the moment I'm busy with France and Western Europe.


Thats actually one issue I have with the current limit of 200 provinces. Some locations were key fortresses but not necessarily cities of importance -Kolberg, Bergen-Op-Zoom, Phillipsburg for example. In the mod I'm doing I'm torn between including these key fortresses or saving the provinces for a major city. Thats why I'm interested to know how you're parcelling out the provinces for this splendid mod.


I agree with SwordsMaster. Generally I think settlements should represent regions' actual capitals rather than key fortresses. Good luck with your mod.

Regards
EC

Ironside
01-02-2005, 20:01
Something like 10 I believe. Thank you for all those sources btw. The scandinavian provinces I think could be included are:
-Denmark(Kopenhagen)
-Skane(Malmo)
-Ostlandet(Oslo)
-Bergenshus(Bergen)
-Trondelag(Thondheim)*
-Jamtland&Harjedalen(?)*
-Smaland(Kalmar)
-Gotaland(Goteborg)
-Svealand(Stockholm)
-Vasterbotten(Lulea)
-Osterbotten(Uleaborg)
-Finland(Abo)

* - should they be merged as one region?
I also thought that Orebro could get a region, but how to name it?

Sounds good, except you seem to have missed southern Norrland.

Those two you ask for merging could be merged although I would recommend them separated with Brunflo as the capital for Jämtland&Härjedalen. It gives a little bit more flexibility up north.

And whatever you do, keep Luleå as the capital for Västerbotten. :happy: It's a good choice and my home city. ~D Got in a very good mood when I saw that. :grin2:

Link to an English page for the parts of Sweden, one map did I link to before, but to the page I didn't.
Link (http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/slaekt.htm)

For Örebro I'm uncertain, Närke is the province, but it's quite small. Perhaps merging it with a neighboring province, but I got no idea for a good name then. Perhaps using the map for the counties (län), but using the name for the province (landskap) could be possible for Örebro and Jämtland&Härjedalen, although slightly incorrect.

Oh, and the conversion of å,ä,ö to a,a,o is entirely acceptable, even though the pronunciation gets wrong. We're used to it. ~;)

SwordsMaster
01-02-2005, 21:35
I´m just thinking. There are 10 provinces in Scandinavia. So Western Europe will be a nightmare. Because the north is relatively spaced and has a small population. All those German states, plus detailed Habsburg empire, plus detailed Flanders and France will make it almost impossible to conquer Everything, and the 50 province limit is going to be achieved with a very small territory.

Besides, what about the resources in each province?

Eastside Character
01-02-2005, 22:13
I´m just thinking. There are 10 provinces in Scandinavia. So Western Europe will be a nightmare. Because the north is relatively spaced and has a small population. All those German states, plus detailed Habsburg empire, plus detailed Flanders and France will make it almost impossible to conquer Everything, and the 50 province limit is going to be achieved with a very small territory.

Besides, what about the resources in each province?

Well, you say it will be a nightmare, and I think it will depend on which faction you play. Conquering everything with the Dutch will be a nightmare for sure, but take the Ottomans and it's a different thing then. The 50 province victory condition is no problem, you don't have to obey this rule after all. The provincial triumph value will have to be properly reduced I think.

And about the resources, I'm not yet touching that as the entire region arrangement is not ready yet.


And whatever you do, keep Luleå as the capital for Västerbotten. It's a good choice and my home city. Got in a very good mood when I saw that.

Ha ha, I can imagine! ~D

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-03-2005, 02:53
The 50 province victory condition is no problem, you don't have to obey this rule after all. The provincial triumph value will have to be properly reduced I think.

Reduced? You mean increased surely. Because, if the provinces are smaller, everyone will start with more provinces, so it will take less to get to the limit.

EDIT: I just thought about this: How is the marriage going to work in this mod? the generals at this time are in most cases NOT related, so it loses its main function.

Iron-Chef
01-03-2005, 12:45
I have to say this is the most promising looking mod in development at the current time, you all doing a great job of putting this whole thing together. That said, do you have an estimated release date for it? Anyhow keep up the great work and Im greatly anticipating the release! Any further interesting info you might have, please mail me at james_vee13@hotmail.com

Eastside Character
01-03-2005, 14:14
Reduced? You mean increased surely. Because, if the provinces are smaller, everyone will start with more provinces, so it will take less to get to the limit.

Well, reduce is what I meant. It is so because as there will be more provinces in our mod compared to vanilla RTW, then I think it would be sensible to reduce the importance (triumph point value) of most regions eg.
vanilla region x has a triumph value 3, and on our map it is divided into three regions each with a triump point 1 (more if it was some particularly important region). This, however, does not mean 90 percent of regions will be of triumph value 1. That was just an example. I hope that now you know what I mean.


EDIT: I just thought about this: How is the marriage going to work in this mod? the generals at this time are in most cases NOT related, so it loses its main function.
It's RTW mod and so generals have to be in some way related to the royal family. It's something we have to live with. All we can do is to decide to whom particularly they are connected and how (marriage or adoption). But the trick with adoption is that in game an event that you can adopt sb can be changed to sth like "you can promote sb". Still, the characters will appear in the family tree as relatives of royals. For now I can't think of any way to change this thing.


I have to say this is the most promising looking mod in development at the current time, you all doing a great job of putting this whole thing together. That said, do you have an estimated release date for it? Anyhow keep up the great work and Im greatly anticipating the release! Any further interesting info you might have, please mail me at james_vee13@hotmail.com
Thanks a lot for the kind words Iron-Chef! ~D There is no estimated release date, but I believe it will take some months. It's a big project and to do it right will take a lot of time. As for mailing the news to you - I don't think so buddy. If you want to know what's new - view this thread from time to time. I, personally am not going to mail people who wait for this mod and send them news. I find it strange you asked that. But perhaps there is someone else who wants to help you on this one.

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-03-2005, 17:26
It's RTW mod and so generals have to be in some way related to the royal family. It's something we have to live with. All we can do is to decide to whom particularly they are connected and how (marriage or adoption). But the trick with adoption is that in game an event that you can adopt sb can be changed to sth like "you can promote sb". Still, the characters will appear in the family tree as relatives of royals. For now I can't think of any way to change this thing.

See, what I thought about is, changing the daughters AND the adoptions to promotions. Instead of having "do you want this man to marry your daughter?" you´ll get "this man has showed some skill, do you want to promote him to ?"

Princesses are not used as in MTW anymore, so there isnt much point in keeping them.

I´m just brainstorming here, I don´t even know if this is doable.


Another question: Is it possible to make a unit "cause fear" to all units enemies and friends alike in a certain area around the unit?

That could lead to some interesting combinations.

Regards.

Eastside Character
01-03-2005, 17:48
See, what I thought about is, changing the daughters AND the adoptions to promotions. Instead of having "do you want this man to marry your daughter?" you´ll get "this man has showed some skill, do you want to promote him to ?"

Princesses are not used as in MTW anymore, so there isnt much point in keeping them.

I´m just brainstorming here, I don´t even know if this is doable.


Another question: Is it possible to make a unit "cause fear" to all units enemies and friends alike in a certain area around the unit?

That could lead to some interesting combinations.

Regards.

Well, changing the women into anything else would cause some funny results IMHO. Just think, how would it look like if two men had children together. And not adopted, but of their own. Besides, I don't think we can get rid of women and replace them with male general characters. I would expect this element of the game to be hardcoded, but I'm not certain whether it really is.

What I think can be done in this matter is ... hmm ... what would you say about changing female names to titles (like office titles etc) and changing their potraits for some symbolic representation of office/rank/etc. Alteration of marriage text would be needed to (sth like "a suitable candidate for an office"). Well, I know that such titles would really mean nothing, but that seems more interesting to me, and most of all it is doable. Another problem would be that those titles would born :dizzy2: and there would have to be messages saying sth on such occassions (but what? maybe sth like "a following office/title has become vacant"?). Well, the fact titles would age is puzzling too.

Okay, it's not the best idea I've ever had, but perhaps somebody can help to make sth usable out of it, or has anybody got any other ideas as to the female characters role in this mod?

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-03-2005, 18:01
What I think can be done in this matter is ... hmm ... what would you say about changing female names to titles (like office titles etc) and changing their potraits for some symbolic representation of office/rank/etc. Alteration of marriage text would be needed to (sth like "a suitable candidate for an office"). Well, I know that such titles would really mean nothing, but that seems more interesting to me, and most of all it is doable. Another problem would be that those titles would born and there would have to be messages saying sth on such occassions (but what? maybe sth like "a following office/title has become vacant"?). Well, the fact titles would age is puzzling too.


Exactly my point. ~;)

The screens for "your wife gave light to a daughter" could be changed to something like "Your parliament started discussing the creation of a new title".

Or maybe just hide the message so that it doesnt appear at all...
The age of the title could be hidden as well.
When the title "died", a message like "this title is now vacant" and the same title could be resigned to a next genereation.

Of course if it is possible to do such thing at all.

SwordsMaster
01-04-2005, 13:06
read this one (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=662556&posted=1#post662556) I think it might come handy. Thanks to Myrdaal for this find.


Another suggestion here: Allow the heavy pike infantry to form phalanx. Without shields, i will be just the best anti-cavalry formation. And it will look quite appropriate. Accounts of spanish battles against Dutch cavalry said that a formation quite similar to phalanx was used to stop cavalry charges.

Eastside Character
01-06-2005, 09:49
read this one I think it might come handy. Thanks to Myrdaal for this find.
As you said, it might. Honestly, I now see no use for this. I mean it's an interesting find and all, but the functionality of it for our mod is not clear to me.



Another suggestion here: Allow the heavy pike infantry to form phalanx. Without shields, i will be just the best anti-cavalry formation. And it will look quite appropriate. Accounts of spanish battles against Dutch cavalry said that a formation quite similar to phalanx was used to stop cavalry charges.
Good idea. I also think the phalanx formation is a proper one for some pike units we have.
BTW, can anyone have a look into names? I don't mean here the name lists, as they have been already made for MTW version of this mod, and hence will only have to be revised. I mean the faction-names relations. I think it would be good if sb took a look at that as there seems to me to be some kind of problem there. Well, perhaps I simply haven't examined the issue well enough, but for me it seems that cultures share a number of names (characters names).

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-06-2005, 12:31
As you said, it might. Honestly, I now see no use for this. I mean it's an interesting find and all, but the functionality of it for our mod is not clear to me.

Pure aesthetics.

NAmes, well, its normal that some cultures share names. I mean, the cossacks are surely going to have a few Polish and Russian names in the list. Same for other factions that shared some territories.

Eastside Character
01-06-2005, 12:49
NAmes, well, its normal that some cultures share names. I mean, the cossacks are surely going to have a few Polish and Russian names in the list. Same for other factions that shared some territories.

Ok, but think about 'roman' factions (HRE, Spain, Pope, Electoral States) they IMHO should not share names, the same goes for 'barbarian' that is protestant factions. Could you, or anyone else having some spare time, look into it. I mean you would have to test if each and every faction can have a completely separate name list. As I said before, I'm not sure if sharing names within one culture is hardcoded, or can we get over it. Comming back to your Cossack example, think about what happens if Cossacks get Hungarian names too, as they would if the names depend on culture and not only on faction. This whole naming issue can be a pain, that's why it needs to be tested. If theres nobody up to the task, I can do it myself, only that not very soon.

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-06-2005, 13:16
Ok, got you. ~:cheers:

I´ll try and have a look. Which are the names files?

SwordsMaster
01-06-2005, 13:48
Nevermind, found that.


Names Database Entries:

Holds non-localised Latin names for settlements and characters. These are arranged on a per faction basis.

Entries are specified by the following syntax:
;;
;; faction:
;; settlements
;;
;; characters
;;
;;
;; faction ... etc



Thats on the top of the descr_names.txt

I actually found difference betwen the brutii and the julii, so thats ok.

cegorach
01-07-2005, 10:02
NEWS

I want to announce that eastern european mod 'Ogniem i Mieczem TW' is officially our 'friendly mod' and we will support their efforts in future. More details in our sub-forum later.
It means also that they will help us in our efforts - especially by preparing new models/skins etc.
I will coordinate this efforts before they will introduce themselves in our sub-forum.

Swordmaster tracked down and I asked him and YES Sundjata Keita will join our efforts.
It means that his abandoned African TW will be assimilated by our mod to some degree - rather only with new units added to our roster.
He is a skilled skinner and will prepare some units for us.
I am discussing the question what he wants to prepare now.

@EC

Pytales TosaInu ?

Regards Cegorach :charge:

SwordsMaster
01-07-2005, 11:18
Could you post a link to the "With Fire and sword"(is that right?) MOD development forum?

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
01-07-2005, 17:51
Gentlemen,

Ive restarted my work on the website, and it is almost finished (except for a few small things that i still have to discuss with cegorach). If all goes well i can have it ready during the next week.
This is just a page template, we still require a top logo with 967x102, im not a skilled graphical artist so im not able to do one.
Check the template here: http://pwp.netcabo.pt/the_dementor/pm/index.htm

Im happy to know that we're going to have our sub-forum at last. That way we can separate the many discussions related to the mod ~:) .

Well my part as a Portuguese Historician is not yet finished i think, if it is still being included in the mod i still can help you, even with maps and historical battles.

Cheers, ~:cheers:

Sundjata Keita
01-07-2005, 21:30
Hi, Sundjata Keita here

I am just confirming as Cegorach1 said that I am going to be doing some work for this mod. I have just emailed Cegorach with a small list of units that I feel would be appropriate and I will let him post up the list once he has checked it.

He also mentioned that EC might want to know what resources were found in Northern Africa, if you want it really realistic tell me which provinces you are going to put in Northern Africa and I will give you the relative resources, otherwise I will give you a rough idea of what can be found and you can add them as the game balances out.

Some common resources found in northern Africa at the time were
-cattle
-slaves
-salt
-gold
-spices
-camels
-ivory

I don't know what resources you are going to include but most of the above will fit well enough into North Africa ~:cheers:

SwordsMaster
01-07-2005, 21:35
Welcome m8 ~:cheers:

Maybe you could also try to have a look at the kingdom of Fez, I had no luck with any sources.

Why don´t you also make a list of the provinces you think are appropiate for N.Africa?

Sundjata Keita
01-08-2005, 00:01
I thought Fez was a city in Morocco originating from fezza.

Anyway I was looking at some maps in a book I have for northern Africa in this period. I found a copy of Johannes Shnitzer's map of the world based on Ptolemy's ideas from 1482 (pretty close to the starting date huh ~D ) but this is hard to read off. I have several other copies of maps from the 1600's which are far more readable so I have incorparated ideas from both. Unfortunately I can't tell if these maps are referring to cities or regions or lakes etc. so some of them might be wrong but anyway the regions I propose are :-

- Fezza (Morocco)
- Barbaria (most of Algeria and some of libya)
- Getulia (Tunisia)
- Berdoa (other parts of Libya)
- Barca Defertum (bit of Libya and a bit of Egypt)
- Eleocar (the rest of Egypt)

I can add more to this list or take some away depending on how many regions you want

SwordsMaster
01-08-2005, 00:27
Fez was a kingdom in Morocco. It occupied most of today´s Morocco.
Here is my proposal for Regions:

Tanger (Tangiers)
Fez
Orania
Berberia
Tunisia (I dont really know if in the XVI cent it was called Tunisia or Gaetulia)

Berdoa (other parts of Libya)
Barca Defertum (bit of Libya and a bit of Egypt)
Eleocar (the rest of Egypt)
~D
Alexandria


That´ll give it a bit more of flexibility.

Sundjata Keita
01-08-2005, 09:50
Tanger is a city
Fez is a city (the region around it is called Fezza)
Orania is a city in south africa
I have just noticed Barbaria was not formed until the dutch made maps in the 1600's before then it was all part of Getulia (gaetulia is latin I think)
:dizzy2:

Well anyway I have made a new list base on a slightly later map but with clear region defenitions on :-

- Fezza
- Getulia
- Beledulgerid
- Barca Defertum (meaning the desert of Barca)
- Then either Eleocar or Sahid (both deserts)
- Guatala*

* optional

Once this list is finalised I will try to make some kind of diagram to show you the regions, I don't have a scanner so I can't scan the map in.

How many regions do you want anyway because at the moment these will be huge regions. If you need more I suggest

Berdoa
Gaogareg
Numidia
Zanhaga

I will then look at finding some city names. I know Fez was in Fezza but other than that I will need a magnifying glass on this crazy map to look at these names. :book:

SwordsMaster
01-08-2005, 14:37
Tanger is a city
Fez is a city (the region around it is called Fezza)
Orania is a city in south africa


I know Tanger is a city, but there have been numerous wars for Tanger between Spain, Portugal and the kingdom of Fez and Algiers so I think it is kinda important. Same thing for Oran (Algiers).


Fez is a city and a kingdom, but if you think it is ore accurate Fezza, I´ll agree with you.

Alexandria is another city, but it was of importance as trading center and its dominant position over the entrance of the Nile.


Anyway, It would be nice to see a sketch map of how this is actually going to look. IMHO we need 3-4 regions MORE than the original RTW, first to reflect the increased complexity of politics and military conquest in this age, and secondly because the "western" N. Africa had its provinces too huge.

Lets see what the other people says as well. I don´t really know how many provinces have we got already, but adding another few shouldn´t be a problem.

Sundjata Keita
01-08-2005, 16:14
O.K. I have done a quick sketch map of the regions in North Afrcia, do any more need adding?

http://img61.exs.cx/img61/5169/northafricaregionscopy2bj.png

The cities so far will be :-

Fezza - Fez
Getulia - Alger
Zanhaga - Nouadhibou
Gualata - Arguin
Biledulgerid - Tamanrasset
Berdoa - Tripoli
Barca - Darnah
Eleocar - Alexandria
Sahid- Cairo?
Nubia - Khartoum
Borno - Mao
Gaoga - Aozou
Libya Interior - Tombouctou (Timbuktu)
Numidia - Taoudenni


Sorry about by bad drawing and just for the record it's Gualata not Guatala like I have spelt it on the map.

SwordsMaster
01-08-2005, 16:58
nice. I think Getulia and Numidia should be split If that is possible.

Is the map covering all the way up to the Red sea? or just to the Nile?

Sundjata Keita
01-08-2005, 19:53
I added three more provinces onto the map and have put on where each city goes. The map goes all the way to the red sea. I added on where the nile goes roughly. Also I corrected the Gualata mis-spelling

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/7544/northafricaregionscopy8is.png

The new and changed cities are:-

Telesin - Alger
Getulia - Rusicade (now known as Skikda)
Targa - Arlit
Numidia - Kidal
Zuenziga - Taoudenni
Zanhaga - Port Etienne (now known as Nouadhibou)
Gualata - Kiffa

Eastside Character
01-08-2005, 21:42
Hi, I was away for the last two days. See you're all busy here. Good! ~:cheers:

Greetings and Welcome Sundjata Keita! ~:cheers:


Nevermind, found that.


Quote:
Names Database Entries:

Holds non-localised Latin names for settlements and characters. These are arranged on a per faction basis.

Entries are specified by the following syntax:
;;
;; faction:
;; settlements
;;
;; characters
;;
;;
;; faction ... etc





Thats on the top of the descr_names.txt

I actually found difference betwen the brutii and the julii, so thats ok.

Very good. That makes the names issue clear as to faction specific names, but... what I think still we have to examine here, is how to make captains use the surnames rather than the first names. Well, we could swap the surnames and the first names, but then we'd get akward names for named characters, AND obviously a name (eg. Charles) would become a family name. :dizzy2: Or is there any other way to make captains use the surnames? Anyone?


@EC

Pytales TosaInu ?

Yes, I have, but he haven't answered me yet. I was absent for the last two days so perhaps so was he. I don't know. The Duke said all I had to do was to talk to Tosa, like that's just to execute the decision of our subforum being established. I'm sure Tosa will answer soon.


Gentlemen,

Ive restarted my work on the website, and it is almost finished (except for a few small things that i still have to discuss with cegorach). If all goes well i can have it ready during the next week.


Very good to 'hear' (see) this! ~:cheers: The template looks good. ~D


He also mentioned that EC might want to know what resources were found in Northern Africa, if you want it really realistic tell me which provinces you are going to put in Northern Africa and I will give you the relative resources, otherwise I will give you a rough idea of what can be found and you can add them as the game balances out.


Good, but have in mind there can't be that much of Africa in this mod as on your sketch map. We sadly can't have any more factions, and making all those African regions rebel seems generally not the best idea to me. My personal view (based on maps I have) on African regions is that (considering what factions we have and what wars they would/should conduct) there would be a few large regions: Egypt (Cairo), Barca (Benghazi), Tripolitania (Tripoli), Tunisia (Tunis), Algeria (Alger), Fezza/Morocco (Fez) and a number of coastal city provinces like Tanger, Orania and some other. I would see Sahara as unconquerable rebel region (neither the Spanish nor the Ottomans have subjugaded it). Sahara could, on the other hand, be a source of some unique mercenary units. As for the big provinces being so few, that's what my map says (Ottoman empire XVI-XVII) and it wouldn't be very gameplay wise to give the Ottomans some 15 regions in Africa alone, as they're going to have some 20-25 in Asian and European parts together. They will have to be powerful, but we have to be careful as not to overpower them too much. Their only major war theatre will be in Europe anyway, consider this. We can revise your region list, what would you suggest?

A major map update is comming soon, I'm just now after the journey and too tired to finish the remeining part of what I will show.

Regards
EC

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
01-09-2005, 00:45
Very good to 'hear' (see) this! The template looks good.

Well thanks, its actually the first review on it heh. ~:cheers:

Regards, :charge:

SwordsMaster
01-09-2005, 04:55
Very good. That makes the names issue clear as to faction specific names, but... what I think still we have to examine here, is how to make captains use the surnames rather than the first names. Well, we could swap the surnames and the first names, but then we'd get akward names for named characters, AND obviously a name (eg. Charles) would become a family name. Or is there any other way to make captains use the surnames? Anyone?

Well, its been a long time since I last played RTW, but I think they are using surnames already, aren´t they? If they are, there´s nothing to worry about.
If they are not, we´ll have to make up a list of names usable as surnames as well or something like that. ~D Don´t know really...


BTW, I also think that the map is a bit too far south. Specially considering that we´ve added a few northern provinces as well....

I think that it should end approx at the line going east from Port Etienne

Sundjata Keita
01-09-2005, 11:44
I have made Africa more boring as requested so here it is

http://img47.exs.cx/img47/2695/northafricaregionsrubbishcopy8.png

The cities are

Fezza - Fez
Zanhaga - Port Etienne
Telesin - Alger
Getulia - Rusicade
Biledulgerid - Arlit
Berdoa - Tripoli
Barca - Darnah
Egypt - Cairo

SwordsMaster
01-09-2005, 12:20
Great m8!

Sorry to be nitpicking again, but now we are left with very little provinces IMO. So is it possible to split Egypt and Getulia?

cegorach
01-09-2005, 12:49
Could you post a link to the "With Fire and sword"(is that right?) MOD development forum?


Here it is -
http://twow.majordomo.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=1085&st=705&

Cegorach ~;)

cegorach
01-09-2005, 13:04
@Sundjata Keita

I didn't get anything. My e-mail is cegorach77@o2.pl - pleas send it again.

@EC

That is good. I am also waiting.

Cegorach :charge:

Sundjata Keita
01-09-2005, 15:02
:furious: :furious2: :stare: :veryangry2: :wreck: :wacky: :veryangry: :mad: :angry:................. :barrel:

What do you mean you didn't get the email?????????
I did not save that email and it was quite long and had good information in, are you sure you didn't get it. It had pictures and everything.

I'm sure I sent it to that adress cos I followed the link from your pm.

Oh well I guess I will have to write another unit list, maybee I'll post it on here as well just so you don't lose it. ~;)

Sundjata Keita
01-09-2005, 15:06
Hey I just thought, I used outlook so doesn't that save a draft somewhere? Anyone know where to retreive it from?

Sundjata Keita
01-09-2005, 18:27
:joker: :beam: :grin: :cheesy: :grin2: :grin3: :happy: :sunny: :laugh3: :happy2:.......... :barrel:

Never mind about that, it did save a copy of the email I sent, have resent it and here are the units I think should make it into the game

Mamluk Egyptian Psiloi (skirmishers/light infantry)
Berber Crossbowmen
Ashirs
Royal Mamluks (imperial guard)
Saharan Cavalry
Bedouin Camel Warriors
Jezzail Camelry (berber camels with gun attatched to side)
Merenid Murabitins (javilineers)
Merenid Militia (heavy infantry)
Ta'ifait Al Ru'sa
Cimaroons
Pirates with muskets (I don't know the proper name)
African/pirate artillery crew (these are just at the end of your period I think)

Pirates??? you may be thinking, but pirates or some type of pirate rebels controlled Morroco and Tunisia through most of your period. Cimaroons are rebel native africans who attacked Portuguese and Spanish ships and built up strong defensive ports through the late part of the period. The artillery they got from trading with the protugeese and the Spanish when they built up Morocco economically (1492) - Having just defeated the African Moors and won back Granada and captured Morocco (1492). The Spanish lost it again a bit later.

@ Swords Master

As EC said it would be unwise to create too many provinces in Northern Africa as they would all be rebel states (well Moorish actually but you have way too many factions to include as it is)

Eastside Character
01-09-2005, 20:35
Map update. (http://www.geocities.com/eastsideofwar/mapUpdate02.html) Post your suggestions for changes.

Just as a side note, I've roughly arranged some other parts of the map and I'm working on them. In the latest screens there are still no forest areas, they will be added as some of the last features of the map. The region ownership is not correct. It's a test map and so it doesn't represent any particular P&M campaign.

I was also thinking that some regions could be made unconquerable. Now I can think of Sahara and Switzerland as appropriate for such treatment. They could produce local mercenary units, but I think it would be more interesting and gameplay wise to let them be rebel states permanently. What would you say?


Regards
EC

Sundjata Keita
01-09-2005, 20:55
The maps looking great!
Wow that's a lot of cities right by each other, are you going to restrict how far units can move?

I can't see the last two pictures, I think it's something to do with the data transfer amount, it says it will refresh in an hour.

I don't know about unconquerable regions as this would restrict the freedom the player has. They would be like enemy spawn points you can't destroy. Maybee you could seige the city and when you win you have to leave but you can still plunder from them and so stop the amount of rebels being produced for a few turns. Whatever seems realistic

Is my latest Africa map okay? It doesn't have too many regions and has cut off most of Africa.

By the way if your thinking about who owns what, the Moors owned Granada until 1492 so it should start as a rebel city with some African units in.

Eastside Character
01-09-2005, 21:42
The maps looking great!


Thanx! ~D


Wow that's a lot of cities right by each other, are you going to restrict how far units can move?

It will certainly be considered I think. Many cities in Germany are very close I admit, but there are several long rivers (Rhine, Elbe, Oder) making conquest of Germany relatively troublesome. Many cities are located next to the bridges, making it impossible for an enemy army to pass a river without conquering a city. Most of the cities will be strongly fortified and hard to get. There will have to be many bloody assaults, wonderfully resembling the peculiarity of the military conflicts within the HRE boundaries. :duel: ~D


I can't see the last two pictures, I think it's something to do with the data transfer amount, it says it will refresh in an hour.


I've just check and all the screens were visible.


I don't know about unconquerable regions as this would restrict the freedom the player has. They would be like enemy spawn points you can't destroy. Maybee you could seige the city and when you win you have to leave but you can still plunder from them and so stop the amount of rebels being produced for a few turns. Whatever seems realistic

Such unconquerable regions can have isolated capitals and so they wouldn't produce nothing but mercenaries for a player. A player could still place a fort in such a region. This, I think, would change the strategic value of those unconquerable states - they would be the only permanent neutral regions. Switzerland was neutral, Sahara was a free land of nomadic tribes, or rather a no mans land.


Is my latest Africa map okay? It doesn't have too many regions and has cut off most of Africa.By the way if your thinking about who owns what, the Moors owned Granada until 1492 so it should start as a rebel city with some African units in.

Genarally, it is OK. Soon I'll show some African (map) screenshots.
The whole ownership issue is not yet of my interest. The ownership you see in my screens is more of a placeholder. That's why I don't show what's the year in my screens...

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-09-2005, 22:28
Great work EC!

A few comments on Spain:

Add a new procince: Cadiz. Move Seville one or 2 tiles up, maybe cutting some space off Madrid. (I think Madrid is too big IMO).

Consider adding Valladolid as well. I don´t know if that would be too much, but I think it should be ok.

Also, Madrid has a LOT of mountains north of the city Granada itself is 2000m above sea level. I don´t know if you edited the geography yet...

Eastside Character
01-09-2005, 22:41
Great work EC!

A few comments on Spain:

Add a new procince: Cadiz. Move Seville one or 2 tiles up, maybe cutting some space off Madrid. (I think Madrid is too big IMO).

Consider adding Valladolid as well. I don´t know if that would be too much, but I think it should be ok.

Also, Madrid has a LOT of mountains north of the city Granada itself is 2000m above sea level. I don´t know if you edited the geography yet...

Consider it done. ~;)

cegorach
01-10-2005, 12:16
[QUOTE=Sundjata Keita]:joker: :beam: :grin: :cheesy: :grin2: :grin3: :happy: :sunny: :laugh3: :happy2:.......... :barrel:

Never mind about that, it did save a copy of the email I sent, have resent it and here are the units I think should make it into the game

Still nothing... Use this e-mail cegorach77@o2.pl ~:confused:

eadingas
01-10-2005, 12:58
Minor spelling nitpicks: It's 'Santiago' not 'Santiango'. Palma should be moved a tile to south-west, look at any map of Mallorca. If you're using 'Krakow' and 'Poznan', use 'Warszawa' instead of Warsaw. I don't see if there is one, but if there isn't, there should be a bridge on Oder next to Breslau.

Eastside Character
01-12-2005, 23:05
Minor spelling nitpicks: It's 'Santiago' not 'Santiango'. Palma should be moved a tile to south-west, look at any map of Mallorca. If you're using 'Krakow' and 'Poznan', use 'Warszawa' instead of Warsaw. I don't see if there is one, but if there isn't, there should be a bridge on Oder next to Breslau.

Thanks for your corrections eadingas. A wandering historian, huh? :book: Why don't you pop in here more often and see if things are fine then. ~:)

As the map is being made and it is more sooner than later it will be done, lets brainstorm what trading goods can we have in our mod guys? And what about resources? Any ideas in what to mod them? I mean should there be slaves as a resource for that instance? :dizzy2:
Would we want to make forts more permanent and fortified?

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-13-2005, 00:26
Would we want to make forts more permanent and fortified?

Is it possible?

SwordsMaster
01-13-2005, 02:07
On a more detailed note:

How many resources per province are we looking at? Are we going to place the american imports as resources in their european receivers? I mean such things as cacao or tobacco.

IMO, slaves should NOT be a permanent resource, and maybe could be renamed to "war prisoners" for that matter.

Now, as for Valladolid and Cadiz:

Valladolid: lightly fortified, mainly agricultural production,
Province name: Valladolid. (I don´t really think Castilla la Vieja would be appropriate as it would include Leon as well. In the other hand Leon will be Leon, so it might be reasonable.)

Cadiz: HUGE imports from America. Own production lower than Seville, main product: wine. Powerful fortress.

As a side historical note: From the XVI to the late XVIII cent, Cadiz was the first (and only) port in mainland spain where the american ships were allowed to stop. until approximately the end of the XVII century, the ships would follow up the Guadalquivir to Seville, where the gold and silver would be taxed and stored. But the stop in Cadiz was mandatory. That is one of the reasons Cadiz was so tempting. When an american convoy was inside the port, the amount of gold and silver in the city was uncomparable to any other city in Europe.

That said, Seville was the biggest city in Spain at the period.

Eastside Character
01-13-2005, 12:49
On a more detailed note:

How many resources per province are we looking at? Are we going to place the american imports as resources in their european receivers? I mean such things as cacao or tobacco.

There should be fewer resource per region than in vanilla RTW I think; 2 being the medium and most common number. I believe that smaller provinces (like German states) would have less trading goods than some large ones (like Egypt for example), we should also vary the agricultural output of course. All this is a matter of game balance and I assume we'll be working on it A LOT. For what can I say about some regions owned and around Poland is that they provided such tradable goods as:

-grain,
-wood,
-cattle,
-horses,
-furs,
-amber,
-salt,
-silver,
-copper,
-iron,
-weapons and armor, (german states)

what other resources would probably be in game:

-gold,
-wine,
??????? you name it

Post your ideas for tradable goods/resources alike.

Regards
EC

Sundjata Keita
01-13-2005, 18:07
I think you should include imports as resources as this is possibly the only way of doing it. Some of these could be :-

-spices
-clothing
-silk (unless this goes in the clothing resource)
-cotton (unless this goes in the clothing resource)
-fish eg. cod (Bordeaux and Nantes were fishing ports in the 16th century)
-logwood
-tobacco

You have Persia in the map right?

So then there was

-Japanese copper went to Persia
-Carpets (these went back to Japan and China)

Thats all I've got I'm afraid

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
01-13-2005, 21:00
Gentlemen,

I am glad to announce that our official website is ready :balloon2: :balloon2:

http://www.pikeandmusket.cjb.net

Even tought it still may suffer some changes, it is pretty much ready to receive visitors.
~:cheers:

Well, thats pretty much all i have to say...

Iron-Chef
01-14-2005, 08:57
Another idea for a resource would have to be slaves, I know that these may be aquired by forcing a captured settlment into slavery so it couldnt be so hard to have slaves imported from Africa etc, I know that the Spanish utilized slave labour on their sugar plantations (another key import from European colonies in the Americas) in the New World, mainly in Cuba in this period.

Sundjata Keita
01-14-2005, 19:42
Can I be added to the "TEAM" list on the website? ~D

I am the modeller for this mod (I think) and am hopefully going to get some units to do from cegorach1 soon.

When is the forum going to be up on the website?

Eastside Character
01-14-2005, 20:36
The whole team setup you see on that site is generally a mtw version development team. Sure, you should be included SK.

SwordsMaster
01-14-2005, 20:57
Ok, this is going to be the list of resources for Spain. I´ll start with Iberia, and will edit the post to add other european territories as I research them.


-Iron and weapons: weapons were produced where ron was freely available.
Mainly 2 places: Toledo and Vizcaya (Madrid and Navarre in the current map).

-Wool (clothes). Leon, Castilla.

-Silk: Granada

-Mercurium (mercury): Leon. To the sceptics, this product was already mined by the romans and was considered VERY valuable. Although maybe for game purposes we could substitute it with say silver.

-Seville: american imports: gold, silver, cacao, tobacco, sugar. This should be one of the richest provinces in the game.

-Cadiz: Wine, agriculture, salt.

-Barcelona: wood, mediterranean imports, agricultural production, clothes.

-Valencia: fruits, wine, salt, silver. (Cartagena).

-Balearic islands: wine, fish.

-Santiago: fish, wood.


all for now.

Count, tHe dEmEnToR
01-14-2005, 22:10
I'm sorry if you are not in the list. That team was the team of the mtw version.
I'll talk to cegorach.

Iron-Chef
01-15-2005, 01:35
What, no sugar ~:eek: This was a very important import from the New World to Spain, certainly more so than potatoes...... :P

SwordsMaster
01-15-2005, 02:11
What, no sugar ~:eek: This was a very important import from the New World to Spain, certainly more so than potatoes...... :P


well, IMHO potatoes were more important than sugar, specially because sugar was also produced in europe. And besides, I don´t know how many resources are going to be placed in Seville. If I add another couple, it could probably unbalance economy too much. Consider also that trade will be improved by building upgrades.

SwordsMaster
01-15-2005, 02:15
Another idea for a resource would have to be slaves, I know that these may be aquired by forcing a captured settlment into slavery so it couldnt be so hard to have slaves imported from Africa etc, I know that the Spanish utilized slave labour on their sugar plantations (another key import from European colonies in the Americas) in the New World, mainly in Cuba in this period.


Actually, there were almost no slaves in mainland Spain in the whole spanish history. plantations were the only place where slave labour was employed.

Iron-Chef
01-15-2005, 02:27
I hate to push my idea too hard but you seem to be underestimating the importance of sugar, not only to the Spanish economy but to European diplomatic relations! It is a documented fact that the British monarchs were so keen on sugar that war with the Spanish was avoided on several occasions due to the blackmailing properties of cutting off the sugar trade to England, and sugar,at least cane sugar was NOT grown in Europe as it was native to the New World and could not be grown in the temperate climate of Europe, although beet sugar is another story.... I can see Im getting to sidetracked here but just setting some things right :book:

Sundjata Keita
01-15-2005, 09:39
potatoes were more important than sugar, specially because sugar was also produced in europe.

I have to agree with Iron-Chef here, pototoes were not very important at all in Spain when they first arrived.The Spanish put it to very limited use. In the Spanish Colonies potatoes were considered food for the underclasses; when brought to the Old World they would be used primarily to feed hospital inmates. This was because the potatoes then were not stored properly and turned green, this green was solanine and made the potatoes taste bitter.
Also potatoes could not be used for trade as it was not until 1780 that any other European country accepted them, namely Ireland. You've probably heard of the Irish potato famine. It wasn't until the 1840's that they spread to places like North America and mainland Europe (although France got there a little earlier). :book:

Don't know anything about sugar apart from it was a tradable resource.

cegorach
01-15-2005, 10:44
I'm sorry if you are not in the list. That team was the team of the mtw version.
I'll talk to cegorach.

Exactly. I will send you revised list of the team members and supporters. ~:)

eadingas
01-15-2005, 11:44
BTW, the sugar was NOT produced in Europe until XIXth century, when white beets processing was invented.
http://www.monitorsugar.com/htmtext/HISTORY.htm

SwordsMaster
01-15-2005, 12:25
Well, as the majority seems to prefer sugar over potatoes (if you eat that much sugaryour teeth will fall off ~D ), I´ll change potatoes to sugar.


Actually about potatoes, they arrived to Ireland earlier than to Spain, 1545 IIRC and this info is from "World history Atlas" published by The Times.

The thing is, sugar is more expensive than potatoes, right? The it will give Seville that much more income converting it in probably the single richest province in the game. Which is probably right. But take into account that in Real life XVI cent Spain, America itself was taking up a good portion of the gold.

Iron-Chef
01-15-2005, 14:59
Well its great to see Ive managed to make a small contribution to whats shaping up to be a great mod, keep up the good work! :book:

Eastside Character
01-16-2005, 17:59
Cheers for that Sugar-Chef! ~;) ~D ~:cheers:

SwordsMaster
01-18-2005, 21:43
look (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=673528#post673528) here for an interesting and maybe useful find. Thanks to eadingas and the EB team.

Sundjata Keita
01-18-2005, 23:19
looks pretty interesting. I can't see how it will relate to the mod though. Anyone got any ideas on how to use this?

BTW I have started modelling some of the units for this and should hopefully post some screenshots at the weekend. (starting with infantry)

Yay I'm a full member and can now edit my posts

SwordsMaster
01-18-2005, 23:21
looks pretty interesting. I can't see how it will relate to the mod though. Anyone got any ideas on how to use this?

BTW I have started modelling some of the units for this and should hopefully post some screenshots at the weekend.

Good news m8! ~:cheers:

I thought that at least the bit about burnable buildings could be useful. The other stuff is merely for aesthetycal purposes...

Eastside Character
01-25-2005, 17:42
I've been thinking about several general issues lately. First is kinda important I think:
-As there was a consent as to create several patch versions for different factions (Saxony, Portugal etc.), should such patch campaigns all start at the same date, or be rather set each in different time, like MTW three campaigns? Personally I would prefer three campaigns starting at different time, and with some different factions too. I'd really appreciate a feedback on that.

-The second thing is a minor one, but still needs to be done at some point... What should be the colors of borders of Russia? I ask you this because as I learned Tzar's flag was black two headed eagle on the golden background. So now, following this example Russian colors are golden/black or the other way round, but how would it look like? To me - strange. Any ideas as to Russian colors (those on the campaign map level)?

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-25-2005, 17:51
-The second thing is a minor one, but still needs to be done at some point... What should be the colors of borders of Russia? I ask you this because as I learned Tzar's flag was black two headed eagle on the golden background. So now, following this example Russian colors are golden/black or the other way round, but how would it look like? To me - strange. Any ideas as to Russian colors (those on the campaign map level)?

Use white borders or light blue ones. IIRC the colours of the imperial navy were white and blue. I think black will be used for HRE/habsburgs, anyway....



-As there was a consent as to create several patch versions for different factions (Saxony, Portugal etc.), should such patch campaigns all start at the same date, or be rather set each in different time, like MTW three campaigns? Personally I would prefer three campaigns starting at different time, and with some different factions too. I'd really appreciate a feedback on that.

Well, If that means changing unit rosters, then its not really doable....

Eastside Character
01-25-2005, 21:03
Well, If that means changing unit rosters, then its not really doable....

Well that wouldn't mean changing only unit rosters but rather making different versions of the mod. This is doable, only that it would require some more work and we would probably release the versions one after another and not simultaneously. More work, but more fun too! :charge:

About the light blue and white as Russian colors, well can be for me, but are you sure? I think we'll have to ask some Russian. I'll PM Dead Moroz, he should know (I hope).

Regards
EC

SwordsMaster
01-25-2005, 21:09
Well that wouldn't mean changing only unit rosters but rather making different versions of the mod. This is doable, only that it would require some more work and we would probably release the versions one after another and not simultaneously. More work, but more fun too!

I think we should stick to one to start with.... By the time we're done, CA might have released some other game... ~D (Only joking, hope it doesn't take THAT long.)