Dan-no-ura

[Minagawa Daimon]

i am interested about the battle of dan-no-ura, if anyone could give me a title of a book or movie concerning this battle i would appreciate it, so far the only movie i know that talked about it is the movie "kwaidan" but it tells the story of a famous bawa player and didnt concern moments of that battle, any suggextion would be appreciated.thanks in advance

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In my sword; the wind, in my heart; courage, in my eyes; death...I am Minagawa

[FwSeal]

The best place to start would be the 'Tale of the Heike', most recently translated by Helen C. McCullough. For good or bad, almost everything we know (or think we know) specifically about Dan no Ura is derived from the description of the battle in this work.

[Ii Naomasa]

FwSeal-dono speaks truly, as always. I've been a fan of the Gempei War for about a decade and while I have been able to cross reference a couple of events from multiple documents (most are written at least a few decades after the events, however), but most of the details about the war come from The Tale of Heike, which, like most of the references, was not written at the time the events were occurring (it's early compositions are believed to have been written after the Kamakura Shogunate was established, and not finalized until almost two centuries after the events which it chronicles). Everything I have personally read about Dan-no-ura seems to rehash what is presented in the Heike Monogatari.

I would dare say that in most cases, I feel I can trust the lists of most of participants in battles and the overall outcome, including most of the casualties (such were probably recorded at the time the events happened). Aside from that, one needs to be wary of details...moreso than any historical reference.

[Yoshitsune]

Helen McCullough's translation is my favourite too but I also recommend the Hiroshi Kitagawa/Bruce Tsuchida translation in two volumes. Its appendices include some additional historic notes including two basic maps of the supposed progress of Dan-No-Ura with the change in the tides etc (also a map of the battle of Kurikara/Tonamiyama incorrectly titled 'The Battle at Hiuchi').

Most of us have to rely on what has been translated http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but there exists a more detailed chronicle of the Genpei War: the 'Genpei Seisuiki' (or 'Genpei Josuiki'- roughly; 'The Rise and Fall of the Minamoto and the Taira'). Sometimes considered a variant of the HM, I'd LOVE to see a translation of this tome however unlikely that would be...

BTW, Ii, I've taken your advice and got Borders here in London to order Kara Dalkey's 'Genpei' novel from the States http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Ii Naomasa]

Yoshitsune-san, given the experience with the period that you've demonstrated, hopefully you won't completely feel like you've 'been there, done that'. Personally, I didn't, despite knowing a good portion of what was going to happen. Genpei is a modern retelling, simplified, but not stupified. It is basically the Tale of Heike with a few twists and modern interpretations. What I've found it to be is a very good introduction for those with no experience in the time frame. I've lent it to a friend who's interested in the period and it's been easy for him to follow and it's been fun to add my added research to what he's been reading.

I like how she incorporates spirits and other supernatural parts without making it sound too fantastical (although she's sort of heavy handed in having a certain bad spirit behind too much of the troubles of the period). Probably the one thing that made it appeal to me and made me like it was that it actually made me like some characters I was previously somewhat apathetic towards. For some reason, Taira Shigemori, despite the good words spoken about him everywhere, never had hit me much as a person before I read this. Ms.Dalkey's portrayal gave him a face to me, and it's always good to have that. On the other hand, I'm not entirely happy with her portrayal of your name sake, but it's not wrong in my opinion...just different than I saw Minamoto Yoshitsune.

Keeping on topic, Genpei includes about six pages or so on Dan-no-ura and covers mostly what has been written before. Ms.Dalkey doesn't go into battles much, which is both sad (as a tale like this would work well with some detailed battles) and good, as its unique and different and she spends the time that could have been 'wasted' on battles on developing other aspects, which I liked...especially since I know the battles.

[Yoshitsune]

Thanks, Ii, still sounds good to me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I realise Dalkey is something of a fantasy writer but that doesn't put me off. Even the old chronicles lapse into stories of kami, oni and bakemono once in a while http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I've read and enjoyed modern fiction like Lynn Guest's 'Children of Hachiman' and Jessica Salmonson's 'Tomoe Gozen' series (women seem to have a fascination for this period - Ghislaine Kruit has done some excellent stuff on samurai armour). Also Robert Shea's 'Shike' series...

[FwSeal]

I think you may have mentioned this book before, Ii, but for some reason I never got around to seeking it out. I'm looking forward to reading it...

[Minagawa Daimon]

one last question guys, is tale of the heike story-like in flow or is it documentary?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Just got my copy of Genpei in the mail.I read a few pages before bedtime last night,but will have to start over because I can't recall one word of what I read.LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[Yoshitsune]

Daimon-san, to me the 'Tale of the Heike' reads like an exciting story although it sometimes lapses into anecdotes about ancient China or gods and demons. This was because the tale was recited by the biwa-playing minstrels as entertainment and their audience would be familiar with these stories. The translators have made a fine job of making it accessible to a modern audience but you may want to have one of Stephen Turnbull's books around (eg 'Samurai; A Military History') to get the overview of the battle.

I'm glad you mentioned 'Kwaidan'. I often play that battle part of the movie and I suspect the tape may be wearing out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Its filmed in an eerie, stylized manner with ghostly music but has a lot of historical detail that seems true to the period. The ranking warriors mostly have the classic, boxy 'O-yoroi' armour and the lowly retainers have light 'haramaki'. It features specific references to the Heike Monogatari such as showing the Warrior Monks of the Kumano Shrine going into action under Superintendent Tanzo. It even has his special banner described in HM as having the picture and 'name inscribed of Kongo Doji near the wooden strip at his banner top'. The monks are also using a peculiar 'three-legged crow' emblem on their banners and shields which I later found was definitely used by the Kumano Shrine. The Genji (Minamoto) are shown with their well known 'gentian and bamboo leaves' mon and the Heike (Taira) are using the butterfly emblem. Given these details I'd love to know what clans the other two mon shown in the film represent (Mr Seal?). One is a Taira ally using the 'twin mountain peak' emblem. Since the Taira only had two main ally-groupings at the battle it must be either the Matsuura League or Yamaga no Hyodoji Hideto's forces. The Minamoto ally has a crest consisting of a lozenge with the Japanese character for the number '3' in the centre. As the Genji had so many allies I could only guess as to who it represents.

Sorry to get carried away with this but it fascinates me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Minagawa Daimon]

many thanks yoshitsune, will defintely order the book at the barnes and noble store near my house, hmm should have given kwaidan a shot, didnt know it had battle scenes in it, now i had to look for it all over again, oh well at least i know its interesting instead of just another horror story http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif, now that you've mentioned it i find this period of japanese history interesting since before most of my focus was during the sengoku jidai, im definitly trying to learn as much as i can from this period cuz this was the time when guns werent known yet, where mastery of the sword and bow would define a warriors skill, and to top it all of the tragic yet heroic stand of the taira's at the battle of Dan no Ura where they fought like tigers cornered, a passion that burned just like the Taira of old that made them the prominent power of Japan before they faded into decadence, pardon my ranting, it is hard not to get carried away with all the drama of this period. many thanks again.