The Greatest Cock-up Generals in Military History

[TheWay]

a. The guy who ordered that the giant wooden horse outside the gates be pulled in

b. The French general who used his men like dominoes in WW1 until there was virtually no extra ones left (Nivelle or something)

c. Hitler

d. The Roman general who had 3 legions massacred in the Black Forest, and who made the Emperor cry

e. Shadowkill (hee hee)

I dont remember the rest, pls feel free to chip in.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Imagawa Yoshimoto & Akechi Mitsuhide; the latter more for his political "activities", though.

There, this ought to provide this thread with material to justify its existence in this forum in at least some way. Maybe these are still more like OT material, though.

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"The unhappiest of all unhappy states is the republic or principality which cannot accept peace and cannot tolerate war."
- Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli

[Minagawa Daimon]

havent heard much about akechi mitsuhide except facts about his turning on his master oda nobunaga, and he was supposedly the uncle of the hero in the game onimusha named samanonoske akechi http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif...anyone who has info on mitsuhide-san before his day of infamy? i sure wish i could know the REAL reason why he turned on nobunaga(if i was in his shoes i would have killed the sob earlier)

[FwSeal]

I'm not sure if one could describe Akechi Mitsuhide as a bad general. He rose quickly through the Oda ranks after 1567 and Nobunaga himself commented on Mitsuhide's ability in a letter to the disgraced Sakuma Nobumori.
He was involved in a good number of military campaigns, especially in the western provinces, subduing Tamba Province and assisting the Hosokawa in their conquest of Tajima. His greatest talents probably lay in the realm of administration, and he was dispatched to carry out land surveys and castle destruction in the Yamato region.
Noone can ever really be sure just why Mitsuhide rebelled. There are various stories regarding his relationship (or rather, the troubles of the relationship) with Nobunaga, some of which may or may not quite accurate, some of which could simply be circumstantial. What does seem clear is that he had the at least tacit support of the Court. That he had hoped for greater support from the various other lords in the Home Provinces is also clear.
The most famous, or rather, one of the most famous, stories involving Mitsuhide and Nobunaga involves the former's mother. When Mitsuhide attacked Tamba Province, he laid siege to Yakimi Castle. Yakimi's lord, Hatano Hideharu, was convinced to surrender when Mitsuhide promised him safe treatment and offered his own mother as a hostage. Nobunaga, however, elected to ignore Mitsuhide's promises and had Hideharu and his brother executed. In revenge, the Hatano retainers promptly murdered Mitsuhide's mother (who was still at Yakimi).
Another reason offered up is that Nobunaga simply disliked Mitsuhide. Just why is anyone's guess, though it may have been that he was jealous of Mitsuhide's skills as a poet. For this reason, he is supposed to have humiliated Mitsuhide on a number of occasions, most famously at a banquet just prior to Mitsuhide's rebellion. On that occasion, in which the visiting Tokugawa Ieyasu was to be entertained at Azuchi Castle, Mitsuhide was tasked with preparing the food and entertainment. Nobunaga, the story goes, decided that Mitsuhide's efforts were sorely lacking and had the food his men had prepared dumped in Azuchi's moat (some might recognize this story from 'Taiko'). At this time Nobunaga also ordered Mitsuhide to prepare to join the campaign in the west.
Another interesting theory is that Mitshude was simply concerned for his own future. In 1580 Nobunaga had suddenly dismissed a number of old hands from service, most notably the Sakuma Nobumori mentioned above (Nobumori had been an Oda retainer since the time of Nobunaga's father Nobuhide). Ando Morinari, like Mitsuhide a Mino man, was also expelled from the Oda ranks. Further, Nobunaga had seen fit to move Mitsuhide about, from Mino to Omi to Echizen to Omi and finally to Tamba (though the Akechi maintained a fief at Sakamoto in Omi). This was a standard enough device on Nobunaga's part (the movement of retainers tended to prevent them from establishing a dangerously strong position in any given place) but may have added to a sense of foreboding on Mitsuhide's part.
Finally, Mitsuhide may have simply been ambitious and siezed the opportunity presented to him. In a way, his timing was both good and bad. While Shibata Katsuie was heavily engaged with the Uesugi and Hideyoshi with the Mori, an army under Niwa Nagahide and Oda Nobutaka (one of Nobunaga's younger sons) was assembled in Settsu preparing for an invasion of Shikoku. Niwa and Nobutaka would join forces with Hideyoshi and tip the balance against Mitsuhide. In addition, Mitsuhide failed to secure the hoped-for support of the Hosokawa and Tsutsui. In the event of the Mitsuhide-Hideyoshi confrontation at Yamazaki, the Akechi army fought well enough under the circumstances but gave way and the rest is history.
Various theories also surround the execution of the rebellion itself, ranging from collusion with Hideyoshi to collusion with Tokugawa Ieyasu. There's even a theory that Mitsuhide somehow survived the aftermath of Yamazaki and lived out his life under an assumed name at Hideyoshi's mercy.

[Ronin]

Takeda Katsuyori.
"Nagashino 1575" : "okay...let´s see...my enemy his an experienced general that has taken a position in the field of his choosing, he has 3000 men armed with machlocks standing behind a fence that makes it dificult for my men to get to them directelly, so what to do?....................That´s right...full frontal calvary charge!!"

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[Takeda Shingen]

It's Agincourt all over again with the Takeda playing the part of the French Knights.I was wondering if Katsuyori should have decided to fight there instead of retreating like some of his Generals advised him to.

Michael

[Ronin]

Even if he didn´t want to retreat he should at least make one decided atack against the castle garrison and take the castle( the superior nunbers of the takeda would almost ensure a victory) he could then use the castle as a defencive position against the Oda/Tokugawa forces.
But definitly a retreat would be the best course of action. There are some battles that simply shouldn´t be fought!

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"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[Stazbumpa]

I still think that general (probably US Civil War) who strolled along the battlements of his under seige fort to bolster his mens morale and declared:

"Don't worry men, they couldn't hit an elephant from this dist....".

Made me laugh.


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Above all things, to thine own-self be true.

[Choco]

Whenit comes to Samurai stuff Katsuyori all the way.

At least Mitsushide could say in his defence that he was surprized.

Katsuyori simply was the Samirai version of somebody voluntarily banging his head against a wall.

I suppose the old Shingen's spirit must had a monumental rage watching his worthless offspring screwing himself royally http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Takeda Shingen]

Katsuyori was a good field general when his father was alive but maybe somehow he changed since Shingen died.But how about a vote for Union General Ambrose Burnside he was the worst general we had in the Civil War,for reasons too many to name.

Michael

[High Voltage]

Good call Takeda Shingen, I was about to post one on burnside. Everyone should know the all famous burnside's bridge. Here's my list:

Hitler - Conquered Europe, but made a huge mistake by attacking Russia, especially before conquering Great Britian. Germany's power fell faster than it had risen.

Burnside - Mainly because of burnside's bridge, where he had his men move across the bridge under open fire, instead of walking through the very shallow stream it passed over.

Takeda Katsuyori - He's a given http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Darius III of Persia - Outnumbered Alexander in all 3 major battles, even by at least 3 to 1(some say 5 to 1) in the battle of Gaugamela, but faced defeat time after time. Then again, Alexander was a tactical genious.

MacCarthur - Yes he helped us win victory in the pacific, but in the korean war he wanted to lay waist to China but nuking them to hell and sending nuclear waist throughout China. If he had done this, then it could have been disastrous for the U.S.A. at the time, maybe having Russia do the same to us.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I wouldn't call Hitler a general, really, even though he was officially known as The Greatest Military Leader in All History™®©. He was a politician, and ran his army much like one. Several generals were dismissed because "they didn't inspire their men like a good gauleiter should."

I'll add yet another general, this one from the Thirty Years War - Matthias Gallas, known to enemies and friends alike as "the Troopwaster" (both because he wasted his troops and because troops under his command had the tendency to get wasted http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif). The German Emperor barely tolerated him only because he was obscenely rich (and hence an important resource for paying the mercenaries) - the Swedish army kicked his donkey all over the Empire.

Then there's Commissar Meretchkov, the guy who ordered the Red Army parade march into Finland in 1939, but I won't go into that. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"3. Jin: universal love, benevolence toward mankind; compassion."

[Vanya]

Saddan Hussein -- he might be a wily weasel of a politician, but his "Mother of All Battles" was a total failure.

[ShaiHulud]

Again, MacArthur!

Lost his airforce to surprise (FOUR HOURS after being notified of Pearl Harbor), hid in his office, refusing to answer or come out
for 3 hours, THEN proceeded to lose his naval units and army and the Phillipines.

The original 'Plan Orange' called for stockpiling supplies on the Bataan Peninsula, withdrawing all the troops to there and holding til the US Navy arrived for a decisive battle. MacArthur felt he could defend the Phillipines with local forces and abrogated the plan. When the Japanese arrived he found the Phillipine army (his baby) was useless and he had no time to stockpile supply.

SO, he retreated to the Bataan Peninsula with both the American and Phillipine forces where they were starved,and without medicine or ammunition. Having escaped by PT boat beforehand (with the $500,000 gift from the Phillipine president whom he also took out with him), he derided the general he left there for surrendering. He was awarded the Medal of Honor shortly thereafter.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[This message has been edited by ShaiHulud (edited 05-25-2001).]