Pronunciation of the word \"NOBU\"

[Maltz]

Just a question about the pronunciation of names.

We know the word "nobu" (as in Oda NOBUnaga) is pronounced as
"Shin" in Uesugi KenSHIN and Takeda SHINgen. So why don't
people say Oda SHINxxxx or Uesugi xxxxNOBU, Takeda NOBUxxxx?
(btw Shingen's father was NOBUtora, same word).

I guess it's bcz Kenshin and Shingen got these names from the
temple (as their monk name), so people rather use the more
"Chinese-like" pronunciation instead of the Japanese original
sounds. Or are there some other reasons? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

Maltz,

I am a Japanese language student and you're probably talking about the difference between pronunciation of written characters. Written Japanese is very contextual in the sense that the same character at the beginning of a name or word is pronounced differently than if it's at the end. For example, the character for "tree" can be either "ki" or "moku", depending on which word it's being written in. A confusing side effect of the merging of two languages/writing systems in Japan. "Ta" in "Tanaka" is the same written character as "da" in "Sanada" or "Ishida."



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Toranaga sama]

also, as a japanese language student, Koga no Goshi is right. The same goes for The word for divinity, or Gods, Kami. Kami is the individual spirits, whereas Shindo, the Way of the Gods, which begins with the same Kanji, is obviously different.

AHHHHH muzukashii, neh?

[Maltz]

What you say both make much sense, yet the "Shin" case here both appear in the first and second character.

Uesugi KenSHIN (2nd)
Takeda SHINgen (1st)
Oda NOBUnaga (1st)..

so I still don't get a clear idea of the rules.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

I would go with your first guess then, since Kenshin and Shingen were both in Buddhist monasteries it may have something to do with that. Then again, maybe that was just the way they chose to pronounce their names. Can't argue with that either. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Hai, sou desu. Kanji wo yomuno ga totemo muzukashii desuyo.

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[FwSeal]

Ken and Shin, (and Gen, Dou, Jou, San, Kei, ect...) were indeed rendered as such when applied to Buddhist names (IE, Saito DOUSAN, Otomo SORIN, Uesugi KENSHIN).
The order in which the characters were arranged in given names was up to the namer. So, we see, in the Mori family, from father to son (from ca.1440-1600)... HiroMOTO, ToyoMOTO, HiroMOTO (again), MOTOnari, TakaMOTO (Motonari's other sons included MOTOharu, Takakage, MOTOAKI, MOTOtomo, MOTOmasa, MOTOkiyo, and Hidekane ) and TeruMOTO.
The same can follow for Buddhist names when appropriate, though to a lesser extent (Hiraga GENSHIN, Takeda SHINGEN, for example).
It might be mentioned that some names were 'passed down' from father to son but did actually use the same characters (Ouchi Yoshitaka and his son, also Yoshitaka, are one example).


[This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 06-28-2001).]

[Zen Blade]

This whole thread has me confused...

I understand that rather than word, it is character... but...

"nobu" should be pronounced as "shin"???

I don't follow this at all.
If anyone has a quick and dirty explanation, I need one!

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity

[FwSeal]

I should also mention another 'bugbear' when it comes to old Japanese names, at least insofar as reading Japanese is concerned. Some names sound the same, but are written with different characters (apart from the names that SEEM to be the same, but are not, such as the Mori/Mouri discussed on the forum months back). Thus, one sees the YOSHITAKA in Kuroda Yoshikata, Kuki Yoshitaka, and Satomi Yoshitaka each rendered differently in kanji. Once in a while, you see conflicting renderings of a given name in Japanese sources, and sometimes you can really only hope that a hiragana reading is provided http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif This is especially true of place names.

[Koga No Goshi]

Shiro, you don't see "Nobu" written and pronounce it as "shin." You see a character that can be either nobu or shin, depending on the context. The Kanji characters are not phonetic, there is usually not one set-in-stone way to pronounce it. It depends on the word it's in.

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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Koga No Goshi]

Second thought,

This is also sort of a language barrier thing. In English, meaning and the way it's pronounced are linked. In Japanese, meaning is linked to how something is written, not pronounced. Hope that helps, if any.



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Maltz]

Thanks for the reply and it helped a lot.

Now I recall Imagawa Yoshimoto's great monk advisor "Sessai" (also Ieyasu's mentor when he was young) also resembles the Chinese pronunciation more.

[Tachikaze]

I think the key is the source of the name. China had a huge influence on Japanese elite culture. Family names had numerous sources, some of them from Chinese. So, it is possible that one family would use the traditional Japanese (kun) pronunciation, and another the Chinese (on) pronunciation. The Chinese name had its written character directly from China. Because it had the same meaning, the same character was applied to the native kun name when Japan finally acquired written language from China.

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To kill for an idea,
One is destroying the superior,
For the sake of the inferior.