Naginata : A womens weapon?

[Irving]

I saw a show on TLC a while ago on martial arts and such and there was a part on the naginata. It said that during samurai era, the naginata is what the women ( i presume, samurai) learned to defend the castle while the men were away. The show also stated that today it is still viewed primarily as a womens weapon in japan.... what gives?

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[Zen Blade]

Irving,

You will get some differing opinions here... (we've discussed this before), but in my opinion/knowledge the Naginata was primarily a woman Samurai's weapon... Whether or not that is completely accurate, I don't know... but it is definitely a commonly talked about event.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The generally accepted opinion in a nutshell: the case mentioned in the topic is the case as it stands currently, but not originally. The naginata gained its "female" (note that the Japanese do not consider this degoratory, as Westerners might) status in the late Sengoku / early Edo period. Before that, it was in common use by everyone and his brother. See this thread (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000095.html) for some more information, as well as those "differing opinions". http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"1. Gi: the right decision, taken with equanimity, the right attitude, the truth. When we must die, we must die. Rectitude."

[The Daimyo]

Well, a similar weapon was used in China, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't considered a womans weapon there. The damn things can cut you in two in one stroke!


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[theforce]

@If you see a woman comign your way with that you should run, if you see a samurai coming your way with that you should flee."
The Art of Staying Alive.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[Ii Naomasa]

Thank you for the link, Anssi, for it saved me a bit of retyping of the opinion I expressed in the previous thread.

As The Daimyo points out, there are similar weapons on the Chinese mainland, and many of them have been (or are descended from weapons that were) around for quite some time. Given the infatuation that the Japanese court of the 9th century had with China, in my most humble opinion, it's very possible that the Japanese warriors of the time may have adopted the general weapon idea. It would go some ways to validate all the art and literature of the period that show the use naginata and similar weapons in battles from at least the 11th century up until the Mongol invasions a few centuries later.

Personally, I believe the naginata declined in its wartime use by males mainly because of the change in the way the samurai fought. Prior to the lessons taught them by the Mongol invasions, battles were somewhat disorganized affairs where warriors hunted out and fought worthy opponents. In this situation, it would have been quite useful for low ranking samurai (on foot) and retainers to have a weapon that would seem to be effective against swordsmen (particularly on horseback). The Mongol Invasions made the Japanese realize the benefits of cohesive, organized units. Packed together, a lot of the strengths of the naginata are wasted as you don't have the room to use it when you have comrades standing right next to you in all directions.

If one wants to consider the 'Samurai Era' as purely the Sengoku Jidai and the Tokugawa Shogunate, then the statement would be true.

[TheWay]

Naginatas, or a variation, have been around for some time, esp in China. The great Chinese general from around the 3rd century, Guan Yu specialises in this weapon.

[agios_katastrof]

That Chinese weapon would be a "Kwan Do". Note "Kwan" is just another anglicized version of "Guan". Yes, named after the general, who supposedly invented it.

The Kwan Do actually has a much broader blade than the Japanese counterpart, and is often with a double point. But yes, it's functionally the same weapon. It was also used by the Mongols with notable success.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

And doesn't this look familiar? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/newunits6.jpg

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"1. Gi: the right decision, taken with equanimity, the right attitude, the truth. When we must die, we must die. Rectitude."

[Ii Naomasa]

Quite familiar, and I went to bed last with the thought to add that such weapons (all variations on the theme of 'put a bladed weapon at the end of a pole') were very common throughout mainland Asian history.

The Japanese had many opportunities to adopt such tools, if they didn't come upon the idea themselves. No matter where they came from (debatable to this day), early Japanese were in recorded contact and trading with China and Korea at least as far back as shortly after Guan Yu had passed on (I don't have the resources with me, but I want to say about a decade or two later...around 230-240 A.D.).

Another interesting note (which I only recently became aware of) is that when the Paekche dynasty fell, a few thousand Koreans emmigrated to Japan in the 6th and 7th centuries, settling in the Kanto area (which later became home of the samurai-class power base). It is theorized that these people, who were used by the Japanese court to help fight the 'barbarians' that inhabited the isles. Whether or not the theory that these warriors were the progenitors of what became the samurai class or not, it is very probable that Japanese warriors adopted some of their techniques.

And then there's the aforementioned 9th century love of all things Chinese by the Japanese court, which may also brought over warfare techniques as well as political systems and social/art styles.

All three events alone give enough chance for the Japanese to pick up on the use of polearms if it wasn't already part of their arsenal.

As anyone ever held a Kwan-do, Zamba-toh, or similar mainland polearm? They look to be a little more heavier than a naginata (give the larger blade), but less than a European halberd (which, while nowhere near as clumsy as it may look, is still an axe to the naginata's sword).

[Tenchimuyo]

Quote Originally posted by TheWay:
The great Chinese general from around the 3rd century, Guan Yu specialises in this weapon.[/QUOTE]

http://www.3kingdoms.net/gallerygk/GuanYu6.jpg

Is this what you are talking about.

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Ii Naomasa]

Tenchimuyo, that's the man and his blade.

One thing that has always interested me about the historical characters that became part of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms works is that they're universally (through stories, comics, movies, tv series, animation, games, etc) depicted the exact same way. My interest in the period and the lore that has descended from it only really started two years or so ago, and I haven't had much time to look into it much, unfortunately. Does anyone know if the depictions of these characters are based on some historical text or art or did someone at some point come up with the 'definitive' appearance and everyone just continued to use that?

As mentioned before, my experience with actual kwan-do and thier mainland relatives is non-existent. From this picture (and most I've seen), it appears that the head sits atop the staff (as you see in most European polearms), whereas in Japanese polearms like the naginata and nagamaki you have the blade extend into the staff section (in the same way most Japanese swords have an extended tang that runs through the handle). To me, the latter design makes the bladed part much stronger and stable.

The again, its unfair to compare a design to one that's almost a thousand years older.

[Tenchimuyo]

Quote Originally posted by Ii Naomasa:
One thing that has always interested me about the historical characters that became part of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms works is that they're universally (through stories, comics, movies, tv series, animation, games, etc) depicted the exact same way. My interest in the period and the lore that has descended from it only really started two years or so ago, and I haven't had much time to look into it much, unfortunately. Does anyone know if the depictions of these characters are based on some historical text or art or did someone at some point come up with the 'definitive' appearance and everyone just continued to use that? [/QUOTE]

As far as I know, Most of these characters are based on historical texts. Some may be exaggerated a little throughout time by folklores but mostly is true according to history.

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Ii Naomasa]

Tenchimuyo, it is also my understanding that almost all (if not all) of the character featured are based on historical characters.

My main inquiry was towards their appearance. If you look at any use of the characters, they almost always look the same in terms of facial features and clothing. Guan Yu, for example, almost always appears with the same mustache and beard, and always his green robes.

In comparison, take a look at books about Sekigahara. Although it happened four centuries ago as opposed to the eighteen or so for the Three Kingdoms Period, you'll find that images of the battle each represent the even the major players differently. Even generals like Ii Naomasa, who's armor we know because of the family armor on display at Hikone Castle, are depicted with differing facial features, everywhere from thin to bulky, clean-shaven to full-bearded. Now, while a man may change such over his lifetime, its odd that his appearance over a small amount of time cannot be finalized.

I have not had the opportunity to really look into the period, and therefore have not really seen much imagery from the Three Kingdoms Period short of 20th century works. Part of my question was whether or not these established physical depictions of these legendary Chinese heroes come from sources much more modern than the 3rd century. After all, look at the historical figure of Jesus. The current depiction of Jesus that is instantly recognizable to most of the Christians in the world is not only historically inaccurate, but isn't even how he's always been portrayed by his followers. The face of Jesus has been depicted as everything from realistic, to overly exotic, to the now benign caucasian that is the template for nearly every current illustration of him. I'm wondering if the same hadn't happened to Cao Cao, Guan Yu, Zhao Yun, and the rest. It's very easy for a modern rendition to be accepted as the standard in many people's minds.

Incidentally, the very nature of this thread is a good example of such (and allows me to not go completely off topic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ). As the naginata's most recent use was a woman's weapon off the battlefield, that's how the weapon has come to be perceived.

[Tenchimuyo]

Actually, Guan Yu is that way because he is depicted as a semi-God to the Chinese. Just like how Jesus is always skinny and have a beard with long hair. (to all the religious people out there, I'm only using Jesus as a minor example. I beg that you do not start a flaming war for comparing him to a Chinese. Now back to our regular posting.)If you go to Chinese resturants, you will see his statue. And almost all police stations in Hong Kong has a Guan Gong statue.And these statue all look the same. Why bother to have Guan Yu appear different if he has been looking like this for hundreds of years?

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Ii Naomasa]

Tenchimuyo, thank you. That does seem to answer the question I was getting at. If statues of Guan Yu and most of the other main figures from the period have been around for many centuries and workmen copies the likenesses from those statues, that would explain the consistent likeness for so many of these two thousand year old heroes. I'm glad to know that the likenesses date back some time (although I'm still curious if the source dates from their lifetimes).

I suppose that comparing Guan Yu's constant appareance to the evolving appearance of Jesus isn't truly fair (although you are correct that Jesus has usually appeared on the thin side with some form of facial hair). Guan Yu is more along the lines of the American folk heroes like Paul Bunyan (who will always be illustrated as a big, bearded lumberjack) and Davey Crockett (with his raccoon hat and frontiersman clothes). Granted, these two American icons hold no where near the amount of interest Guan Yu does in the hearts of their respective people. In all the cases, though, these are people who hold no ideological sway on the people, aside from nationalistic pride. They represent great virtues and/or characteristics. The physical representation of Jesus, however, has to be pleasing enough to attract people. That's why early portraits could allow him to look Mediterranean (when most Christians lived in that area), while ones of the past few centuries have made him more general European in appearance.

[agios_katastrof]

Naomasa,

AFAIK, polearms were the melee weapon or choice in medieval Asian and European armies. Used en masse, they outdo pretty much all non-missile weapons.

Yeah, I usually see naginatas and kwan dos with full tangs, whereas the European halberds appear to have that over the shaft type of designs. I believe this is because as you've noted, naginatas/kwan dos are derivatives of swords (Kwan Do is literally "Kwan's Sword"), whereas the European counteparts have been derived from axes and spears.

I say this by gut feeling only, but I think most Japanese and Korean weapons can trace their influences to China. But as with the naginata/kwan do, each regional derivatives appears to have been further developed to give them a distintive enough flavors. As I have recently learned elsewhere, the Korean two handed jian is another interesting example of an adopted Chinese weapon.

And the kwan do has some amazing reach of influence. I had a chance to visit Vietnam in the mid 90's, and I saw a child playing with a plastic sword. Not an uncommon sight, even in the west, but this was a replica of a kwan do.

And finally, since we were talking of WFHong films in the other thread, there is one such Jet Li film, the title of which I forget, in which one of antogonists speacilized in the kwan do. Well, this was a wire-fu wuxia Jet Li film, but it was still impressive to see nevertheless.

[lei]

i thought the naginata was like a samaurai sword with more curve at the top, on a staff as opposed to the huge axe-like things in those pictures above, is this correct thinking or were they meant to look all jagged and heavy?

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TIGER LILY!!!
check it out for yourself at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tom.surman/frames.html

[agios_katastrof]

lei,

The broad bladed weapons depicted above are the Chinese weapons, the kwan dos. The Japanese variant, the naginata, are indeed more slender, as you've noted.

[Ii Naomasa]

Lei, you are correct in your assumption. The naginata is one of the slimmer polearms in the world and DOES look like a typical curved Japanese sword blade with a staff for its handle. The nagamaki also looks like that, except its blade may be a bit longer and its handle shorter (the nagamaki looks something like a two handed sword with a really long handle).

The kwan-do which Tenchimuyo graciously supplied the photo of, was being used in our discussion as a forebear of the naginata, for the purposes of demonstrating the use of polearms in Asian warfare.

And agios already said this much more succinctly a minute before me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 04-23-2001).]

[lei]

yeah thx all

it may be worth checking the links on my site (heehee, i'm not trying to blatantly advertise btw, if that's how it seems) cos there's one site, nihonto i think, that gives a whole bunch of detail on everthing japanese weapon related.

nihonto also shows some of the weapons for sale, which is where i remember seeing the naginata. good little research facility if anyone's interested.

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TIGER LILY!!!
check it out for yourself at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tom.surman/frames.html

[Yagyu Jubei]

The naginata was actually so incredibly powerfull of a weapon that when Tokugawa started doing away with he powers of the samurai he made it a woman's weapon and no longer allowed the men to use it.
Now it is studied by men and women alike, though women are the main champions. It is also true that women had specialized in it earlier for defending their homes while their husbands were away.
I know these things as I studied with the number two dojo for naginata in Japan last year.

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Yoshikazu Hojo]

There is an exhibition here in Tokyo at the Edo-Tokyo Museum about the Mongol invasion. I went there 2 weeks ago and saw a 12th Century Naginata among many other artifacts from that invasion period. Rather than being a sword blade on a pole, the weapon was more like a well crafted long sword hilt with a wide blade longer and more curved at the point than a regular katana. It looked very heavy. Which brings me to think that the Naginata would have been used more for jabbing or thrusting than swinging. Anyone heard of a Japanese famous warrior called Benkei? He is very well known for his use of the Naginata.

[Vile]

Quote Originally posted by Yoshikazu Hojo:
There is an exhibition here in Tokyo at the Edo-Tokyo Museum about the Mongol invasion. I went there 2 weeks ago and saw a 12th Century Naginata among many other artifacts from that invasion period. Rather than being a sword blade on a pole, the weapon was more like a well crafted long sword hilt with a wide blade longer and more curved at the point than a regular katana. It looked very heavy. Which brings me to think that the Naginata would have been used more for jabbing or thrusting than swinging. Anyone heard of a Japanese famous warrior called Benkei? He is very well known for his use of the Naginata. [/QUOTE]

Was it labeled as naginata? The weapon you are describing sounds more like nagamaki. Nagamaki is a polearm with a blade that is longer than the blade on naginata and looks more like a sword blade. I think that at least Araki ryu and Toda-ha Buko ryu teach the use of nagamaki now-a-days.

BTW: The trend around Mongol Invasion was for longer kissaki (the point of the blade), because Japanese blades didn't cut too well through the Mongol leather armour and thrusting was more effective.

[This message has been edited by Vile (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Yoshikazu Hojo]

Mmmmmm Hi Vile,
Can`t say I read the label. My Japanese is as rusty has my STW online gameplay. I just presumed that it was a Naginata. It was one mighty weapon and the craftsmenship was unbelieveable.

[Vile]

OK.. it sounds a bit like nagamaki, so it might be that. Thanks for the description, it was nice to read. Any other especially interesting items there worth mentionin here?

Anybody willing to sponsor me to go and check out if it was really a nagamaki or naginata, can contact me on my email address http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Obake]

For those of you who may be wondering about the state of the Naginata in modern times, I suggest you check out this (http://www.naginata.org/inf/inf.html) link.

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[Koga No Goshi]

By-note on naginata being a female weapon,

What reminded me of this is posting in the other thread about the Japanese samurai movie Heaven and Earth. In the movie, Takeda Shingen's mistress Yae and her female cavalry retinue all fight with the naginata. Perhaps women continued to use it because such a big scary weapon compensated for being female? (I really couldn't imagine a male samurai routing seeing a bunch of women with swords, particularly as samurai women by the feudal period had become quite priviliged and elite and most didn't know how to use a weapon except a small seppekku dagger for the throat).



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Goshi of Koga

[Shuko]

The only reference to women using weapons I can find at the moment is during the Tokugawa period. The upper class samurai women received training for naginatas and daggers, they were quite proficient at using the awkward naginata.

[Toranaga sama]

to beat this topic into the ground, I found this on a website:

Women's Entrance into Naginata jutsu

The 16th century sohei were said to favor the naginata and nagamaki, but manv famous bushi used them as well. During the Muromachi period (1393-1573), 425 ryu (traditions) of naginatajutsu evolved. Originally it was a man's weapon since it was quite heavy and took a great deal of strength and stamina to use. But in modern times it is thought of as a woman's weapon.
Japanese women did not always fit the subservient role of today's women.

During the Kamakura period women trained in bujutsu and were expected to show the same martial spirit as men. Legends arose of women who became feared warriors such as Itagaki and Tamoe Gozen. These women warriors went beyond the role of defending the home or self. Tamoe Gozen of the Minimoto clan "feared neither man nor devil" and was said to be a match for 100 warriors.
A fearless horsewoman and master of the naginata, she used circular slashes and strikes (hence her name) to dispatch her enemies while guiding her horse with her legs.


Itagaki, who threw fear into the hearts of her enemies, was a famous commander of 3,000 warriors of the Torizakayama Castle. She fought against the Hojo Regime (1199), which wanted to subjugate the Taira clan. Itagaki led her warriors into the thick of battle, guided her warhorse with her knees and cut the enemy with a deadly circular slash pattern of her naginata. It was said when the dead were counted, her kills outnumbered all others.

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868), the naginata gradually became a woman's domain. From the 17th century, young daughters of samurai families were given halberds with golden lacquered handles. When they were married, the women would take their naginatas with them. Sporting matches between women were recorded during this time. Even though women trained in naginata jutsu since Heian times, it was in this time frame the naginata became primarily a woman's weapon. Today, little has changed.

Probably the most important reason for the decline of the naginata as a weapon of war was the influx of Western weapons to Japan. Bows, swords, yaris and naginata fared poorly against rifles, cannons and pistols. While rising to a position of esteem from the 12th?17th century, modem weapons brought on the demise of the naginata and led to its evolution as a sport. Displaying a last glint of feudal martial spirit, 500 women volunteers armed with naginatas were among the revolutionaries who opposed modern weapons during the 1877 Satsuma rebellion, one of Japan's last civil wars. The art of the naginata was lost because of governmental bans on the use of weapons in 1876 (Meiji 1868-1912).

The practice of naginata jutsu was outlawed along with the other martial arts after World War II. After the ban was lifted with the departure of the occupation forces, naginata practice resumed in the do (philosophical) rather than jutsu (fighting) form. In 1968 there were over 10,000 naginata?ka in Japan. Only about 10 were men.

[Roman Totale XVII]

Actually the stories about Tomoe Gozen (consort of Minamoto 'Kiso' Yoshinaka) using the naginata only emerged many centuries after she lived.

The early chronicles such the famous 'Heike Monogatari' only mention; 'She was a remarkably strong archer, and as a swords-woman she was a warrior worth a thousand...Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his 'first captain' equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword and a mighty bow...'