Duels

[Devil_Hanzo]

Where duels between samurai at all similar to the way they're depicted in various samurai movies? In every samurai movie I've seen, it seems like they basically just pose for a while and then when one finally decides to strike the duel usually ends immediately. There's no real fencing; if you strike and miss, you're dead. Was that really how it was, or was there a shortage of fight coreographers in Japan when these films were made?

[Zen Blade]

Hanzo....

I don't know the exact answer to your question... but, in real life... most fights are over VERY quickly. Be it martial arts or weapon-based [talking professional/trained fighters]. The first blow that gets through will very likely end the fight.

For example, in fencing, (I don't fence, but a friend does), duels are often over in less than a minute.

Also, with Sharp swords... you don't really want to make a bad strike... you only strike if you are going to kill/hit your opponent. Otherwise, if you miss, or get blocked, you will very likely get killed.

The movies where you see long fights, are dramatic and long for the cinematic effect.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Devil_Hanzo]

Well, I kind of expected that. However, there's another question that comes to mind now; if you only get one strike, the one who waits for the opponent to strike gets an advantage (actually, the best samurai in the movies always wait for the opponent to strike), so why would anyone make the first strike? And was there no tradition of trying to "push" away the opponents sword before striking, for instance? Especially with a two-sword style like Miyamoto Musashi's, I'd think you'd attempt to fend off the opponents sword with one of your own and then strike with the other?

Were there never cases, in Japan or elsewhere, where the fencers just focused on parrying for a while to prolong the duel and "show off" a little? Or fencers who would prolong the fights with weaker fencers just to "play" with them?

And would this be very different when shields were involved? Of course they didn't use shields in duels in the West either, at least not that I'm aware of, but in battle?

So the "one-hit kill" applies to martial arts as well? I really thought they could take a few punches, and block others, a bit like boxing (although of course they don't use gloves in martial arts) but I guess that's a bit unrealistic considering how powerful the attacks of skilled martial artists can be...

BTW, one somewhat unrelated question; in "Samurai III - Duel on Ganryu Island" there is a kind of tournament going on where they battle until death, a bit like gladiator fights (except these are free men who participate voluntarily to win a prize). Were tournaments like that common in Japan?

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by Devil_Hanzo:
Where duels between samurai at all similar to the way they're depicted in various samurai movies? In every samurai movie I've seen, it seems like they basically just pose for a while and then when one finally decides to strike the duel usually ends immediately. There's no real fencing; if you strike and miss, you're dead. Was that really how it was, or was there a shortage of fight coreographers in Japan when these films were made?[/QUOTE]


From what I have read it appears that the opponent was selected and then you fought him one to one. There was nothing except the cut and injury or the cut and death. Sometimes the winner would have to kill the supporters or seconds of the samurai they had just killed as the others wanted to avenge the death. A good fighter would kill them easily as they were usually not first rate swordsmen or even samurai ie retainers.

Some fights were done with yari (spears) and swords or even wooden staffs. Remember that samurai were skilled in using several weapons
and could kill an enemy with one or two blows. Fights were short unless one was fighting two or more but this was a rare event.

[Tachikaze]

I did fencing. The bouts each lasted a few seconds. In choreographing sword duels, it is actually difficult for the two combatants to attack and parry repeatedly. It takes skill just to cross swords, even if you are both co-operating.

I'm just using conjecture, here, but I would say that samurai stood quite a while before striking the first blow. In a formal duel, the killing attack should be clean. It is very easy to hit your opponent's calf or elbow. As in most Japanese traditions, the manner in which you do something is more important than the outcome. A samurai would never prefer to wittle his opponent down with numerous non-fatal strikes in a duel. It looks bad in the press the next day. He wants one clean, carefully-planned cut.

Also, if I owned a precious family heirloom, like a katana, I wouldn't want to bash it up and nick the blade hitting some other guy's sword. I just want to hit soft stuff.

[Muchoman]

Quote Originally posted by Devil_Hanzo:

BTW, one somewhat unrelated question; in "Samurai III - Duel on Ganryu Island" there is a kind of tournament going on where they battle until death, a bit like gladiator fights (except these are free men who participate voluntarily to win a prize). Were tournaments like that common in Japan?[/QUOTE]

"Duel at Ganryu Island" is the third movie about Musashi Miyamoto, one of the greatest swordsmen i japan. In this movie he has to fight against another samurai- Kojuo Sasaki, to determine who is the best.
Its not a tournamnet and the only prize is the honour and the priviledge to walk away alive. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Devil_Hanzo]

Warning! Spoilers below!


Sorry mate, but you're wrong. He does duel with Sasaki Kojiro in the end, but long before that, early in the movie, Musashi and Jotaro (sp?) come to a place where lots of people are gathered in a circle and in the center a monk with a spear is fighting another guy. The monk wins and declares himself winner of the tournament because no one dares to challenge him. Then Jotaro insults the monk and the monk demands that he fight. It all ends with Musashi grabbing the monk's spear as he stabs and a priest or something breaking up the fight. It definitely is a tournament (it even says "Martial Arts Tournament" when they get there). So I ask again; were tournaments like that common in Japan?

[This message has been edited by Devil_Hanzo (edited 08-02-2001).]

[Yoritomo]

I do kendo, so I might be able to elaborate here.

Yes, your quite correct in that the first cut is the last cut. The philiosphy behind kendo is to keep your Zanhin alive always! This means to always be on the alert (translated it means awareness of danger) This means to even be aware even though you have been cut.

You can say that indeed the first person that makes the move will lose. But that certainly depends on the person who is striking and the person who is to be striked. Various levels will dictate how you react, and that your training in kendo will make you strike before you initially know you are strking. Again this is hard to tell you, but if you practise Zen you will know what I am talking about.

So when you do look at these movies, they do try hard, and definately, if you see the duel in the Seven samurai, that is probably the most accurate portrait I can think of.

It is also worth mentioning, that the katana's are very sharp weapons, and your only a few feet away from the other person. Cutting a person is very precise and very deadly. It is honourable to die by a clean cut rather than one that is not.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

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"I found Rome paved in brick and left it Marble" - Caesar Octavian Augutus

[Yoritomo]

I do kendo, so I might be able to elaborate here.

Yes, your quite correct in that the first cut is the last cut. The philiosphy behind kendo is to keep your Zanhin alive always! This means to always be on the alert (translated it means awareness of danger) This means to even be aware even though you have been cut.

You can say that indeed the first person that makes the move will lose. But that certainly depends on the person who is striking and the person who is to be striked. Various levels will dictate how you react, and that your training in kendo will make you strike before you initially know you are strking. Again this is hard to tell you, but if you practise Zen you will know what I am talking about.

So when you do look at these movies, they do try hard, and definately, if you see the duel in the Seven samurai, that is probably the most accurate portrait I can think of.

It is also worth mentioning, that the katana's are very sharp weapons, and your only a few feet away from the other person. Cutting a person is very precise and very deadly. It is honourable to die by a clean cut rather than one that is not.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

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"I found Rome paved in brick and left it Marble" - Caesar Octavian Augutus

[ShaiHulud]

Devil.....

"In every samurai movie I've seen, it seems like they basically just pose for a while"

What appears to be posing is actually intense battle of itself... with one's opponent and with one's self. The idealized duels enacted assume an understanding of this. How does my opponent stand? How and at what level does he hold his sword? How does my own stance project to respond to his potential for both attack and defense?
Those considerations are reflected in the actions of both participants prior to closing. It's a cerebral act.

Yet, the duellist hopes to be beyond the need for thought and to simply respond naturally to his opponent. You've doubtless heard talk about 'being one with the sword" and such. Thru practice the duellist strives to make the thought and the act simultaneous with his mind uncluttered by overt consideration of his opponent or himself. 'Not thinking' is the battle with one's self.

A fine illustration of this is the duel in 'The Seven Samurai'. One is full of himself, the other empty of everything except the moment. For the latter there is no thought of victory or death in mind nor actual consideration of his opponent as other than the focus of the moment.

I don't know how to explain without using what might sound like mysticism or double-talk, but for some, it is real.



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O stranger, Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their will.....

[Yoritomo]

"Were there never cases, in Japan or elsewhere, where the fencers just focused on parrying for a while to prolong the duel and "show off" a little? Or fencers who would prolong the fights with weaker fencers just to "play" with them?" /end quote..

If you have ever read the book of Five Rings by Musashi, he will tell you in the earth chapter that certain samurai of the day stylized their sword fighting to show off. This is the one fault that those particular swordsman had, Musashi tell's you that if you do not understand, then you will not be following his way of heiho. The true way and only way is to cut without any concept of danger to yourself or to your opponent. You simply cut, there is no thought involved and no ego entered into. Certainly this is the way of the samurai, and if you ever read Yamamoto Tsunetomo's Hagakure, samurai wake up as though they are already dead. Their life is beholden to the daimyo, and he dispenses with his life if ever the need arise.

There are some terrific books out there, and if you do read them, you quickly understand how they thought and believed in. Very different to any other warrior class in the world, and perhaps that is why most people today conduct their everyday affairs (business or personal) the same way.

Their paths were never to attain fame, but merely to serve their daimyo. Musashi definately did not set out to become the world's most famed swordsman, but merely to obtain the enlightenment that he sought after in his very colourful life. I feel the movie's tend to do no justice to his life, but as with most movies, they tend to sensationalise a character or story to capture the audience's attention. That is why I like Kurosawa films so much, and tend not to like Inagaki films to a certain extent.




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"I found Rome paved in brick and left it Marble" - Caesar Octavian Augutus

[Grim]

Yoritomo:

What is the translation (or what is the meaning) of Zhanin?

-Bows-

[Yoritomo]

Sorry that was a typo

Zanshin, it means in kendo "spirit" always have your spirit high, always. Even when you have been struck, you always maintain good posture and the shinai (bamboo sword) in the centre.

In another term Zanshin means a heightened awareness of danger, a samurai knows danger is at hand is prepared for it.

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"I found Rome paved in brick and left it Marble" - Caesar Octavian Augutus

[Devil_Hanzo]

Yoritomo: I've recently bought both "The Book of Five Rings" and "Hagakure", but I haven't started reading them yet (still reading "The Art of War").

Anyway, I understand the principle behind the concept, but I have a little trouble believing that they were all just trying to perfect their skill. Surely many must have fought for fame and respect? Or even to entertain the masses while making a living?

I agree with you about the movies, BTW. They seemed like "soapy" sensationalism to me. Although I haven't seen any of his other movies, I think it's safe to say that Inagaki isn't (wasn't?) half the director Kurosawa was. If it wasn't for Mifune, I would be tempted to call the Samurai trilogy a steaming pile of... you get the point...

[Yoritomo]

Read the Hagakure and book of five rings http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Learn as much as you can, then I think you will find that a samurai would never pose.

If he did, then I wouldn't call him a samurai http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"I found Rome paved in brick and left it Marble" - Caesar Octavian Augutus

[NOLA_Jay]

If you liked the Samurai movies, check out the book Musashi, by Eiji Yoshikawa. The book was the basis for the 3 movies, and has been translated into English. The book was released in two diffrent formats.

The first format is a series of 5 paper back novels. The 5 novel version is out of print at the moment.

The second format is a huge hardcover that has the whole story. (All the text from the 5 volume paperback version in it). The hardcover is the way to go and it is still in print.

[Vile]

Quote Originally posted by Devil_Hanzo:
Where duels between samurai at all similar to the way they're depicted in various samurai movies? In every samurai movie I've seen, it seems like they basically just pose for a while and then when one finally decides to strike the duel usually ends immediately. There's no real fencing; if you strike and miss, you're dead.[/QUOTE]

Well, most of the techniques in Japanese swordmanship seem to aim at a very swift victory with one or two cuts. Although Hakagure suggests that there were also prolonged matches.

The posing is supposedly meant to discover the weaknesses (suki: an opening, wether it be mental or physical). Just watch the modern sumô wrestlers as they gaze each other expressioneless before the fight.

The hoplologists (study of human combative behaviour) talk about psycho-physical advantage. Mindset for a veteran, "cool" warrior is said to be pseudo-predatory. I.e. a person gets ready for battle physically (heartbeat, adrenaline and other hormons), but heartbeat and adrenaline levels don't go to the "panic", "run for your life or fight desperately" level, but only so much higher that a person can still control himself, but get the full physical benefits of the hormone rush.

The posing is a part of taking this advantage over your opponent (both putting on your own mindset and to crush your opponents mindset. Making him nervous while holding your cool). Also one can leave openings for a bait so that the opponent would attack them and thus open himself for an attack, rhythm his breathing with the opponents breathing and yelling, vocal kiai might be used (now this is where it gets very esoteric).

You can find more about hoplology on the international hoplology society webpage http://www.hoplology.com/

There's also couple of articles/chapters related to hoplology on books Koryu Bujutsu and Sword & Spirit edited by Diane Skoss and Legacy of the Sword by Karl F. Friday.

From the swords point of view blocking is really not a very good idea. The edge may ruin and in worst case the sword might break. Most blocks in Japanese swordmanship seem to be deflections so that the sword-to-sword contact is minimized and made as soft as possible (just to deflect the opponent's sword from it's path while dodging).

Also against several opponents "one strike, one enemy" is very good policy.

And no, I've not seen any real duels (and to be quite frank, I'd rather stay that way) and I have no idea what they actually were like.. these are just educated guesses from a student of the Japanese sword on what I've studied, seen and read http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

-Mikko Vilenius

[Minamoto Yoritomo]

The Hagakure was written by a nostalgic samurai who never even saw war. He lived during the relatively peaceful Tokugawa period, and was pissed off because he couldn't commit seppuku to follow his lord into the great beyond. His picure of samurai life seems quite romanticized to me.

[Vile]

Yes, I think you're right Yoritomo, but still it's not least less valuable book to give us a view of the bushi mindset. Defenitely a very important book culturally and historically, one must just take it as what it is. A book written by an individual and it can tell a lot about the society and the time which the individul was living in.

The most interesting parts for me are the rumours and stories that the writer of Hakagure has written down. Obviously very well known stories that have spread from mouth to mouth. The "newspaper" of yesteryears so to speak..

-Mikko Vilenius

[TenkiMadoka]

To Devil_Hanzo;

The samurais believed as the people say here; in one clean cut. That's it.

But to achieve such a cut requires many years of practice and education.

In western fencing; There are predominantly two styles. The French and the Italian.
The French taught towards skill rather than brute force and the Italians vise versa. You can easily understand this by the grips they used. The French used a loose wrist hold while the Italian fencers had a loop around their wrists connected with the sword. Therefore making it less mobile, but very powerful. A good example will be this.

You have 2 different kind of screwdrivers.
The Phillips (+) and the Regular (-) While the French style may have the proper use for the + & - the Italian would be the automatic screwdriver. It is effective but the screws will get over 'screwd' therefore rendering it useless. Power doesn't necessarily equal victory. That being said.

In Kendo (eastern Japanese Fencing);

You are taught to stay with in a certain distance. It is a distance where your tips of your swords are not touching, but with only few milimeters apart. This distance is the 'neutral' distance. It is this for a reason. If one were to swing his sword to the opponent it would never reach. Hence, also called the safe distance.
But
If the swords are touching/crossed at the tips. Then this would be the engaging/attacking distance. Since you can hit the opponent when you do swing at him.
Also there is the factor of the 'center'.
In kendo as in Fencing you are taught to guard/keep hold of the center. If your center is off then your opponent has all the openings he needs. For example; If one of the person who has the center stepped forward without moving his sword then he would hit the opponents throat and the opponents sword will just pass the neck of the person who had the control of the center.(or in the least miss the target)

Having said that, it is crucial to make a strike that could count. In Fencing and in Kendo your hits won't count if you havent delivered it correctly to the targeted area.

So YES, there were alot of thought that went through the Samurais mind before he attacked or counter attacked the enemy. It is a mind game before your body reacts to it. How could the directors at the time or even now have the audiences understand what is going on in the samurais mind before attacking his opponent?...with great difficulty.

I hope your questions were answered and I hope the information I provided was informative.

Tenki-Madoka
Daimyo of the Shingi Clan

[Devil_Hanzo]

Thanks, Tenki-Madoka, that was actually very informative!

A couple of questions, though:
Did the fact that the Italians focused on brute force also means that they fought aggressively, while the French were perhaps more evasive? Does this also mean that Italian fencers would focus more on training for strength in their fencing arm than actual fencing?

What exactly is "skill" in this case? Parrying until you find an opening, or simply being able to quickly spot an opening and strike?

When you call kendo "Eastern Japanese fencing", does that mean there is also a different style called Western Japanese fencing?

[TenkiMadoka]

Dear Devil_Hanzo,

You wrote: and to answer your questions;

"Thanks, Tenki-Madoka, that was actually very informative!
A couple of questions, though:
Did the fact that the Italians focused on brute force also means that they fought aggressively, while the French were perhaps more evasive? Does this also mean that Italian fencers would focus more on training for strength in their fencing arm than actual fencing?

No, as a matter of fact, the Frech grip allowed fencers to hold the foil/epee/sabre with more grip as compared to the Italian style. Since the Italian style adopted the band which held the swords/or bound the swords on their hands/wrists.
But as all teachers would suggest, dont hold it like you are choking it, hold like you are holding an egg, not too hard and not too soft.

What exactly is "skill" in this case? Parrying until you find an opening, or simply being able to quickly spot an opening and strike?

In Fencing as well as in Kendo you will almost certainly attack any spots that are open for attacks. If one person whos a weakness the opponent can use that weakness to use it to his/her advantage. For example in Kendo. If one doesnt develop a strong 'center' as i have mentioned above, there will certainly be an opening. if that person has a weak center and therefore if his sword point is actually pointing at my chest rather than at my chin or at my eyes then you know that the strike to kote(wrist) is a certain win.
The flip side of the coin;
You can lower your sword just abit to allow your opponent to strike your 'kote' wrist.
but this is actually a trap. as soon as he/she moves forward to strike you have countless options to work with since you know that he/she is almost certainly going to strike that area.


When you call kendo "Eastern Japanese fencing", does that mean there is also a different style called Western Japanese fencing?"

No, i merely used those words to clarify what Kendo actually is. It is fencing.
A practice. Unlike Iaido where you are taught to cut and with unsheathing the sword.

Again, i hope i have answered your questions.

Tenki-Madoka Miyoshi
Daimyo of the Shingi Clan