Mongolia is part of China

[TemujinForever]

Culturally, economically, racially... Mongolia is part of China.

[TemujinForever]

The Dragon is Rising!

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by TemujinForever:
Culturally, economically, racially... Mongolia is part of China.[/QUOTE]

I guess you are Chinese then? That makes two of us. Or I could be deadly wrong.

Why was mongolia part of China again? Because once in the history, we ruled the world by the hands of mongols? (of course, another not-so-glorious version would be: once mongolian conquered and ruled China just as what they did to the rest of the world?)

Basically, it's like saying: I feel honored to be conquered by the golden horde, because that makes me part of golden horde too. I don't buy that.

In reality, invasion is invasion, just plain as that. Plus historically, monolian didn't bother to embrace the civlization of the conquered nations. They wanted to change China into their horse-farm and Chinese was placed at the bottom of their social ladder.

Granted, mongols did establish a dynasty in china and capitaled there. However, Mongols was, after all a military tribe. They were really good at applying captured technology onto the battle field, but didn't pay much attention to the culture thing. Their usual (and got to admit, effective too) approach is to capture a city, pillage it, keep the smiths and young women and slaughtered the rest.

I got a feeling that this discussion is getting completely irrelavant, and might be removed soon. Oh, well.




[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Khan7]

Woooo, I really wanna flame ya Temu, but ppl in here don't like that stuff.

Essentially we shall let it rest at this:

(1) The childish simplicity and shortness of your posts give the impression, rightly or not, that you don't know what you are talking about.

(2) This topic is not appropriate for this forum.

(3) I will ignore you from now on.

No offense intended :-)

------------------
Khan7

[Shiro]

I guess this can go to history (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=3&SUBMIT=Go).

EDIT: UBB

[This message has been edited by Shiro (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Zen Blade]

I DON'T WANT IT SHIRO!

Temujin... a number of your posts border between acceptable and not acceptable... please do not say INFLAMMATORY things unless you have a lot of proof.

btw, well done Khan7. I appreciate your restraint mate.

-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Tenchimuyo]

I smell beef http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[TemujinForever]

Gothmog, you're not chinese. You are a westerner corrupted by its immorality. Hence you know nothing about the great Khan, accept the distorted notions given to you by western sources.

Mongolia is now part of the great nation that is China. The Dragon is rising...

[Khan7]

Oh boy.. corrupted evil WESTERN sources.. corrupted evil WHITE sources.. will the weirdos of the world ever just shut up??

[monkeydan]

How did this guy find his way here and how can we help him find his way back? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Zen Blade]

Temujin,

Another outburst like that and this thread will be closed...
If you have an opinion, please state it with the proper support BUT do not insult or degrade anyone else.

-Zen Blade (THE MODERATOR)

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Otokomi Innue]

This is funny. I just read an article in The National Post about Ghengis Khan, Kublai's Grand Father? (correct me please).

The claim in the artile is that his burial site has been found in Mongolia (an autonomous state), north of Ulaan Bator, its capitol. In the article, the Chinese government controlled "culture" propogandists were quoted as saying that Ghengis Khan was important to them because he unified the cultural minorities (there are many) and incorporated Mongolia and other states into China.

Now that's what I call a spin. Bill Clinton would be proud (;

If anyone is really interested, I suggest you check out "Empire Of The Steppe" (sorry, can't remember the author). It covers hundreds of years of history including the Khans.

[Devil_Hanzo]

Well, Temujin, if you think Mongolia is part of China, why don't you explain what makes you think so instead of throwing out unsupported claims and insulting Westerners?

And the Dragon is not rising, it's trying to catch up...

[Shiro]

Zen Blade-LOL. Sorry. Next time I'll just close these threads. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[nokhor]

'empire of the steppes' was written by rene grousset. its a really informative book and is considered the bible of central asian history.

------------------
indeed

[Khan7]

hehe, one could make the argument, if one had more specific and extensive knowledge of Chinese history than me, that the Mongolian conquest of China was one of the key factors in the Chinese being so disunited and weak and corrupt, which is what made colonializing China in the 19th century just like shooting fish in a barrel.

Someone with more knowledge, please comment on this possibility!

------------------
Khan7

[Oda Matsu]

Adolph Hitler is well remembered in the Jewish community, being instrumental in the formation of Israel. Oda Nobunaga is an important figure for devout Buddhists, having acting as a unifier for various sects of the faith in Japan. Henry VIII had an active interest in issues of Christian theology, and had frequent and lively debates with the leading figures of his day.

Hmm. A neat trick, but I don't think it's very original. Didn't George Orwell describe this method back in 1948?

[Otokomi Innue]

Oda,

There are loads of examples like those you present. Unintended side effects in a grand chain reaction.

Back to China and Genghis Khan...the claim that Genghis did not conquer China, but conquered for China is a little different...er...extreme.

[Oda Matsu]

I believe a more accurate term for such an argument is "sophist". A person making such an argument, at least in the legal world, is said to possess a trait known as "chutzpah".

(That is, the sort of person who represents a person that has killed his parents, and argued for leniency because his client is an orphan.)

The Mongols ruled over China. For a time, the Mongols were part of China (in the same way as, say, Scottish kings once ruled over England as well). Thus, someone could potentially argue that Mongolia is part of China, on these grounds.

Using similar logic, Kublai Khan attempted to establish his authority over the isles of Japan. From what I've been led to believe, the matter was eventually resolved by virtue of meteorology. Of course, this didn't stop the Japanese from reopening the issue seven centuries later, but now I really am digressing...

(P.S.: There are no "Chinese" or "Mongol" peoples. Everyone is a Turk.

PROOF:

*Nationality seems to originate from "original soil", i.e. even if you have been living in Japan all your life, and your family has lived there for several generations - if your ancestors came from Korea, you're Korean. And so on.

*After the Great Flood, Noah landed at Mt. Ararat.

*Mt. Ararat is in Turkey.

Therefore, everyone is a Turk. QED.

Logic just ain't no fun, 'less it's bent like a pretzel.

[Oda Matsu]

"Culturally, economically, racially... Mongolia is part of China."

This is the most fun. Y'know, in this regard CHINA isn't really a part of China... There are two main, distinct spoken languages, and the Han is the dominant ethnic group. China really isn't a country, it's a sort of unified collection of states, an empire...

Much of China's history is about holding this cobbled union together, or attempts at gobbling up nearby "provinces". All of Indochina has been once "Chinese", as was Korea, and all the local states paid tribute at one time or another - including Japan, who once had their leaders "approved" as vassals to teh Chinese Emperor.

Of course, at the time of the Mongol conquest, the above statement would elicit bemusement from Mongols and disgust from the Chinese. The Mongols, having a separate language, way of life, body type, etc. are as "Chinese" as much as Russian Slavs are "Roman". Only someone entirely ignorant of regional differences would voice such a comment, making the author's claim to being a "Mongol Chinese" highly dubious.

[Zen Blade]

Sigh...

ok, continue guys but... please keep to RELEVENT POINTS....

also, Turks didn't inhabit Turkey until the Mongol invasions during the 1200-1300's. Realistically, the Turks composed a large fraction of the Mongol forces... The Turks originally came from the Western China/Southern Russia/Central Asia thing...

Also, I wouldn't argue the bible here guys... Religious books aren't of much merit in a discussion... Because... for every "the bible says this"... there will be a "Buddha says this" or a "Koran says this".... and that won't get us anywhere. THESE AREN'T OBJECTIVE Points.

anyways, keep up the good posts guys.

-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Tenchimuyo]

Before the Mongolian conquest of China, there was a dynasty called Jing(in chinese meaning gold) dynasty. At that time China had been over ran by a different nomadic tribe called Jing. After they defeated the previous dynasty, these nomads adopted the chinese language and culture, married Chinese wives and developed a dynasty that lasted for many years.
The same goes for the Mongols. When Ghengis Khan conqured China, these mongols adopted the Chinese culture, too. Because it offered great advantage toward both prosperity and technology. Thus provided them with the resources to move further west.
So it is simply a case of one culture intermix with another one through less peaceful means. Just as the Romans adopted from the Greeks, plus much of English culture and language are from the many Germanic and other tribes that dominated the Island. So can we say that Germany is part of England or Italy is part of Greece? I guess not then. So it is absurd to claim that Mongolia is part of China just because there are some similarities between the two.
For me, the only way Mongolia can be part of China is unless they calim themselves as a governorial province to China or for China to conqure them.

------------------
A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Khan7]

I actually found Matsu's biblical logic quite amusing, and I believe it was intended that way.. :-)

I would disagree with Matsu in his thinking that being oppressed helps. My answer would be: sometimes, maybe. But if this was the rule everyone would WANT to be oppressed.

For instance: Colonial conquest by Europe sure did a GREAT job of unifying the Africans! Even today, they are the model of a well-civilized and unified people!

Genocide at the hands of Old-World Americans suuuure did wonders for the Indians! Why, look at all the Indians, all the land they have, and all the power they wield!!

Stalin's crimes and near total destruction of the Russian state through mass genocide and economic and political sabotage suuuuuure did many wonderful things for the Russians! Look at how well they bounced back! How staunchly their country has since held together as one! Why, one can visit Russia today and see the insurmountable evidence of this shining beacon of prosperity and unity!

You get the picture..

What doesn't kill 'ya makes 'ya stronger.. but an addendum should be added on to that.. it should be "what doesn't kill OR MAIM you makes you stronger"!!

In the case of the Mongol Rape of China, you can't just say "oh, it unified them!", and leave it at that, hehe. I don't know enough to do it myself, but I would like to see a real Chinese history buff in here to comment on my hunch that the Mongol rape was a significant factor in leading to the dismal state of affairs of China in the 19th Century when they were bought up by the Europeans.

Of course THAT conquest, coming at a time when they couldn't go any lower, arguably DID have an enormous positive impact, at least in terms of developing China into a serious power and reworking the thinking of their leaders. Of course note that European imperialism in China had little or no resemblance to the mad and senseless slaughter and destruction and afterward reign of terror that the Mongols brought.

------------------
Khan7

[Choco]

Mongolia a part of China? ....
Yeah, sure. Just like Nepal http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif


Sigh ... this WB was so friendly and mature. PPL would discuss in an intelligent and educated way ....

I wonder who let the doors open http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Oda Matsu]

There is only one China. The capital is presently at Taipei, but hopefully that will change soon.

(*cough*)

[Khan7]

LOL, wake up and smell Kaichek's rotting corpse, lol..

Taiwan was never China, and until very recently its repression was every bit as bad. The Communist revolution in China was a popular one, there is no denying it, and for that matter the Kuomintang sucked dog penis at EVERYTHING, making the people RIGHT.

For real now..

------------------
Khan7

[Choco]

Well some points about those last posts .. and I hope nobody will get into petty rivalries and personal attacks on those issues.

-The historical relation between mainland China and Taiwan has not been so strong as to say that Taiwan has "always" been a part of China. It was in the modern times, basically since the flight of Chiang Kai Shek to Taiwan that this island became such a terriotorial issue.

-Nobody wants to remember but The Kuo ming Tang repressed in a bloddy way a rebellion by Taiwan's original habitants during the 50's. The relation between the mainland chinese and the original Taiwanese people was more like the relation among Japanese and Ainu people. For many Taiwanese people the mainland Chinese were more like opressors and conquerors.

-I agree totally with the opinion about Chiang Kai Shek. It was a tragedy for China (and for US in some sense) that such a coward, corrupt and useless loser was in such an oportunistic position as to manipulate the fate of the Chinese people. The American politicians were so naive as to believe that Chiang was really a great leader when in effect he was a pathetic coward who refused to fight the Japanese domination. USA made a historical mistake supporting Chiang against the coummunist party for ideologic reasons when it was obvious for any objective observer that the communist guys were the "good guys" (at least back then).

... of course then, after becaming the rulling power in China the communist party got corrupt, Mao became an egocentric crazy, the Tiennamen masscre came, etc ... but that is another story

[Demon_Ninja]

Parts of mongolia are part of Red CHina. THere are chinese nationals of Mongol extraction, but thats it.

The Mongols conquered China, and were thrown out. THen the MOngols were conquered by the Manchus.

[Oda Matsu]

Is a rabbit a part of a wolf? Only if the wolf can manage to get in a good bite...

As always, the situation will be decided by the bigger mouth. Until that day, all we can do is wait...

[Californian]

I have read a lot of books and articles written by the experts. In my opinion based on what I learned, northern Chinese and Mongolian are originally Turks/Huns, basically the same people.

Different opinions are welcome.

[Subotan]

Woahhhhhhh Blast to the Past

Nobody knows who the Huns were, although there have been suggestions that they could be connected to the Xiongnu, who lived in what it now Mongolia. The Mongolic languages are also a quite distinct language family as opposed to the Turkic languages.

[Fisherking]

I have read a lot of books and articles written by the experts. In my opinion based on what I learned, northern Chinese and Mongolian are originally Turks/Huns, basically the same people.

Different opinions are welcome.

The Huns are hard to place but the modern Magyars’ language, Hungarian, is related to Finnish and seems it may have come from Ancient Sumerian from what I have read.

distribution map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

Turkish is an Altaic language and related to other Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean, and Japonic languages.

map 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkic_languages.png

map2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-TurkicLanguages.png

Altaic languages map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Altaic_family2.svg

From the language differences I would tend to believe that the migrations of one group set the other in motion but are not the same peoples.

And Welcome to the Org Californian :2thumbsup:

[Louis VI the Fat]

They had the internets back in 2001? :blank2: :stunned:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm sooo going to check this entire thread for transgressions. Then I'm going to give massive warning points, handing out week long bans to posters who have not logged in since 2003.



Oh, the fun that can be had when you're autistic but somehow been made a mod!!

[PanzerJaeger]

They had the internets back in 2001? :blank2: :stunned:

Bumping a 10 year old thread... a new record? :grin:

Welcome Californian!

[Veho Nex]

Wow. Atfirst i was reading this like, no way a member from 01 just posted this, then i looked at the post date.

[Californian]

Woahhhhhhh Blast to the Past

Nobody knows who the Huns were, although there have been suggestions that they could be connected to the Xiongnu, who lived in what it now Mongolia. The Mongolic languages are also a quite distinct language family as opposed to the Turkic languages.


In that same region (Northern China and Mongolia), Xiongnu or Huns were actually there first based on many studies. After they were forced to move west, Turkish people were gradually formed. After Turks gone to the west (also forced), Mongol people were formed... Many nomads , however, have remained in that region eventually becoming farmers or so-called Chinese. Please note: China was only formed as a country in 1911. Before that, there were only dynasties, no Chinese people. Chinese is a nationality nowadays and not a race.

My two cents.

[PershsNhpios]

Mongolia is a part of Asia.

Problem solved.

[Fisherking]

There is no linguistic link between Turkish languages and Fenno-Ugrian.
There are 5% of modern Hungarians who have haplogroup M DNA, which shows an Asian origin east of the Urals, but as they were overrun by Mongol Hoards and Ottoman Turks at different times, that would not be so surprising.
To complicate the question a bit more, there is no distinct Turkish DNA that sets them apart from other groups.

Fenno-Ugrian languages seemingly come from Central North Asia far from Mongolia. However, Huns or Magyars historically they were assonated with the Alts, because of proximity.
I see linguistics used as a link between the Huns and the Xiongnu. This can be a dangerous supposition.
Remember that Chinese and Cherokee share some two dozen words in common. The word for bread being of most significance. The problem there is that Cherokee is a blend of two or more linguistic families and the cereal grains were different and developed long after any separation of these peoples. Why would they remember a word for something they didn’t have?

I think this could be more of the same.

The cultures may have had similarities because of environmental factors but to call them the same people is a leap I wouldn’t make.

[Sarmatian]

There is no linguistic link between Turkish languages and Fenno-Ugrian.
There are 5% of modern Hungarians who have haplogroup M DNA, which shows an Asian origin east of the Urals, but as they were overrun by Mongol Hoards and Ottoman Turks at different times, that would not be so surprising.
To complicate the question a bit more, there is no distinct Turkish DNA that sets them apart from other groups.

Fenno-Ugrian languages seemingly come from Central North Asia far from Mongolia. However, Huns or Magyars historically they were assonated with the Alts, because of proximity.
I see linguistics used as a link between the Huns and the Xiongnu. This can be a dangerous supposition.
Remember that Chinese and Cherokee share some two dozen words in common. The word for bread being of most significance. The problem there is that Cherokee is a blend of two or more linguistic families and the cereal grains were different and developed long after any separation of these peoples. Why would they remember a word for something they didn’t have?

I think this could be more of the same.

The cultures may have had similarities because of environmental factors but to call them the same people is a leap I wouldn’t make.

How dare you bring reason to a thread like this!!!

[Centurion1]

i care to question the op. i would go so far as to say the chinese are mongolians.

rebuttal temujin?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmm Cent is banned?

Heh, this thread puts perspective on all these Watchtower threads about how the .org isn't what it used to be. lol @ the first two posts in particular.

[Centurion1]

yeah till friday.

yeah they were ******* back in the day man

[LeftEyeNine]

That's one helluva necromancing, Californian .

*awes in fear*

[edyzmedieval]

Talk about entering with a bang. :book:

[Kagemusha]

Well to the linguistic part. I have no doubt that there has been interaction between the Turkic,Uralic and Mongolian language groups. Now do all these spring from common ancestor proto language is quite possible impossible to show in any extent. I believe that at Eurasian steppe because of constant moving of populations languages have mixed and moved constantly.Still this doesnt suggest in any way that Han Chinese has any deeper relationship with any of these languages.

[Louis VI the Fat]

i care to question the op. i would go so far as to say the chinese are mongolians.

rebuttal temujin?I would venture to say that Temujin is so taken aback by your riposte that he won't even bother an attempt at a rebuttal. :yes:

[Brandy Blue]

There are Mongols living in Russia so you might just as well say that Mongolia is part of Russia, or that China and Russia are both part of Mongolia.

What about those Chinese people living in India? Are the Chinese willing to take orders from New Delhi?

[Megas Methuselah]

Bumping a 10 year old thread... a new record? :grin:


No kiddin', man.