Minamoto Yoshitsune info wanted

[monkeydan]

Hey all (esp. Ii Naomasa) -
I saw that post in the "Gengis Khan" thread and was intrigued (although I didn't want to add to that thread). Could anyone supply more info about Yoshitsune's accomplishments and how his mythic association with Gengis Khan came into being? Thanks...

[FwSeal]

Minamoto Yoshitsune was a younger son of Minamoto Yoshitomo. When Yoshitomo was destroyed by Taira Kiyomori in 1160, his surviving sons (Yoritomo, Noriyori, and Yoshitsune) were spared and sent off into exile. History tells us almost nothing about the course of Yoshitsune's life between 1160 and around 1181. Folklore provides many fanciful stories to fill in that gap, however, including the meeting of Yoshitsune and the warrior monk Benkei (which is quite a bit like the story of Robin Hood and Little John, in fact) and Yoshitsune learning swordplay from the Tengu (mythical, bird-like beasts).
In 1180 Yoshitsune and Yoritomo were probably reunited, as Yoritomo raised an army to challenge the local Taira forces in the Kanto. In 1184 Yoshitsune finally emerges into the clear light of history as he and his brother Noriyori lead an army that destroys Minamoto Yoshinaka and occupies Kyoto. In the aftermath, Yoshitsune was given a number of administrative duties in the Kyoto area, and some historians speculate that this period saw a souring of relations between Yoshitsune and Yoritomo. At any rate, after this lull, Yoshitsune and Noriyori advanced westward to pursue the harried Taira (who had themselves been ejected from Kyoto by Yoshinaka in 1183) and after a series of encounters (Ichi no tani and Yashima being the most famous) the Taira were destroyed at the Battle of Dan no Ura, a contest that looms large in the annals of Japanese history (but may, perhaps, be judged a remarkable 'mop-up' operation).
In the aftermath of the so-called Gempei War, Yoshitsune and Yoritomo grew increasingly estranged. No one can be sure just what brought this about; some suggest that Kajiwara Kagetoki, another important Minamoto retainer, nursed a grudge for Yoshitsune and blackened his name to Yoritomo. Others hold that Yoritomo was almost absurdly paranoid and feared his younger brother’s newly-won fame. A small body of historians suspect that Yoshitsune was in fact plotting against Yoritomo (not a very popular theory, as it detracts from Yoshitsune’s tragic hero status somewhat). Regardless, it eventually became clear to Yoshitsune that he was no longer in his brother’s good book; in fact, that his life was in danger. He first attempted to drum up support from Minamoto clansmen in the Home Provinces and when this effort proved in vain he fled north. He took up with the Fujiwara of Mutsu Province but was betrayed by a Fujiwara clansman and was either killed or committed suicide at Koromogawa in 1189. His head was sent to Yoritomo at Kamakura. Most likely as a result of this sad course of events, Noriyori, Yoshitsune’s other brother, also became estranged from Yoritomo. He was first sent into exile and then murdered in 1193.
Later hopefuls invented a number of stories keeping Yoshitsune alive beyond 1189. One held that he escaped to Hokkaido. Another, and the one mentioned elsewhere on the forum, is that he somehow got to Mongolia and became Genghis Khan. There seems to be no real basis for this tale beyond some (suspect) similarity in the reading of their names (I admit that I have never seen anything in a Japanese book on the matter), and I seem to think that it was floated many hundreds of years after the fact.
Anyway, sorry for the long post…

[Khan7]

Hmm.. very good info, thanx!

Don't mind long posts if they are interesting.

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Khan7

[Grim]

FWSEAL wrote:
"the Taira were destroyed at the Battle of Dan no Ura, a contest that looms large in the annals of Japanese history "

In the 3rd sketch of the movie "Kwaidan" (very good btw), there is mention of a battle between the Heike clan and Geinje (sp?) clan fought on sea called Dan no Ura. Is it the same one? 'cause indeed the movie underline that passage very well with lots of detail and lots of beautifull japanese paintings.

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes cannons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my cannons)
-Trad. libre

[monkeydan]

Thanks FWSeal - just the kind of summary that I was looking for. Good post.

[Ii Naomasa]

As usual, FWSeal-dono not only beats me to the punch, but manages to say pretty much all I would've said in half the space. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The problem with Yoshitsune is that the majority of written material that has survived to today was writen decades and centuries after his death. As the years grew on, the retellings added their own flavor and elements that matched what the people wanted to see at the time. Awhile back I was planning on taking a vacation in Japan (a plan that was furiously dashed, unfortunately, and hasn't seen the light of day again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif ) and wanted to emphasize northern Japan for this particular excursion. In doing some research of the area, I was amazed at how many 'Yoshitsune was here' locations you can find as you move north up to Hokkaido. It's worse than the 'George Washington slept here' tourist spots in the northeast U.S. If one were to take it all seriously, one would think Yoshitsune, instead of trying to avoid detection, was running some kind of election campaign. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

monkeydan, if you need long, drawn out, boring details, I can ramble on about Yoshitsune, but FWSeal-dono's description is not only brief, but keeps to the details that can be verified as historical. Most of the rest comes from one hand-me-down tale or another.

Of late, Noriyori has fascinated me. Many works (include the Heike monogatari, or the Tale of the Heike) describe him poorly to the point of slander (when they even bother to mention him). Roughly the middle brother of the surviving sons of Minamoto Yoshitomo (whether you only count the three most prominent or the five or six total that are known), tales seem to treat him more like the red-headed stepchild. Granted, he was born of a common whore and not a wife or established mistress, but that alone would not have made storytellers berate him.

Personally, I think Noriyori wasn't the completely incompetent fool tales would make him out to be. I believe his problem was that he was unfortunately an 'ordinary' human being surrounded by the likes of his political and strategically brilliant brother Yoritomo, the tactically brilliant and bold Yoshitsune (whose downfall made him all the most important in Japanese lore), his incredibly war talented cousin Yoshinaka, and even some of the Taira who are held up as great examples of warriors and men (much like how Taira Munemori could've personally killed every Minamoto in Japan and still might not have been compared favorably to the god-like image of his late brother, Shigemori).

The other day at work I noticed a sign a person had in their cube. It described the differences between a manager and a leader. I'll stop by again and jot it down, but you could almost put the names 'Noriyori' and 'Yoshitsune' as the headings instead. Noriyori wasn't as creative or bold as Yoshitsune. This lead him take the more obvious (and therefore, less spectacularly victorious) paths. Noriyori leads hundreds and thousands of men and gains victories slowly. Yoshitsune takes dozens of men and through daring tactics, wins big. It's much easier to see why Yoshitsune is more well liked. I'm not trying to say Noriyori is a great general or anything that ridiculous, but I do dislike the way he's treated in most works (and, therefore, in most history texts).

If Noriyori were such a fool, his campaign in the west would've been a complete disaster. The Tale of Heike makes it sound like all he did was get drunk and womanize all day long (often in the capital of all things, while historically, he would've been in Kyushu). Noriyori's biggest problem was taking things the slow and safe way. This lead to a long, drawn out series of engagements where his supply lines began to be stretched too thin. Yoshitsune's later decisive, more direct actions won the Genpei war, but Noriyori's actions, while often described as abysmal failures, did secure a lot of territory and restricted the places the remaining Taira could turn to.

Noriyori's death has also intrigued me. History books (when they mention him at all) dismiss his death as a combination of his supposed refusal to personally lead an army to eradicate Yoshitsune (something I could see in Noriyori's personality) and Yoritomo's paranoia. I have read in other works that he may have had an influence in an ambush Yoritomo ran into after Yoshitsune died. Noriyori's immediate attempt to 'protect' Yoritomo's wife (Masako, who would have a strong impact on her family, the Hojo's rise to power) and family after reports of the incident can be viewed either as obvious, suspicious fore-knowledge or an act of strong family loyalty. Obviously, Yoritomo took the former view, as Noriyori would later be killed while in exile.

Anyway, I'm running very long winded as usual, so I'll leave with just these words for some to ponder and others to fall asleep to. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[monkeydan]

Thanks Ii Naomasa:

I wouldn't mind hearing some of those "rambling hand-me-down tales" about Yoshitsune. I think that folk tales are an important medium for understanding another culture. So, by all means, ramble away....

[FwSeal]

I think that one interesting issue is just what the turning point of the Gempei War was, setting aside for a moment the exceedingly complex nature of that conflict (or, in fact, series of conflicts) that the Tale of the Heike greatly simplifies.
I'd put my vote on the 1183 Battle of Kurikara, in which the Taira were defeated by Minamoto Yoshinaka. After this event, the Taira withdrew from Kyoto and, for all intents and purposes, were a passive influence until 1185 (when they were crushed once and for all). Yoritomo seems to have considered the Taira all but finished by 1184, judging by some of his political manuevers.

Also, Grim, that was the same battle I mentioned. Heike and Genji are alternate names for the Taira and Minamoto.
The Battle of Dan no Ura is also depicted in an early episode of the old television documentary, 'Cosmos'.

[Grim]

Thanks FWseal, Thanks Il Naomasa.

monkeydan wrote:
"I wouldn't mind hearing some of those "rambling hand-me-down tales" about Yoshitsune. I think that folk tales are an important medium for understanding another culture. So, by all means, ramble away...."

That's exactly my thoughts too. I feel like someone is telling me stories from a far away magical land and I'm loving every minute of it.
I'll check out this "Cosmos" thing (know exactly where to find it).
BTW FWseal, Il naomasa; This is a very instructive thread, keep it up.


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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes cannons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my cannons)
-Trad. libre

[Yoshitsune]

If you find it, try and get hold of Helen Craig McCullough's translation of the Japanese chronicle 'Yoshitsune' (Gikeiki). This was first put into writing in the 15th Century by an anonymous author who used stories that had been told in the oral tradition as a source. The chronicle concentrates on the portions of Yoshitsune's life not told in the 'Tale of the Heike' (Heike Monogatari) so it has little about the Gempei War. Its not meant as a historical work though; its strictly the *legend* of Yoshitsune. Nothing about him becoming the Mongol Khan however. It ends with his death (by suicide in this case) at Koromogawa and the subsequent destruction of the Oshu Fujiwara clan.

Yoshitsune: A Fifteenth Century Japanese Chronicle - Helen Craig McCullough, Stanford University Press, 1971, ISBN 0-8047-0270-5

[Roman Totale XVII]

I love that 'Hoichi the Earless' episode of the Kwaidan movie. The details in the battle scenes are tantalising to me as a mini wargamer - they show various 'mon' being used by the combatants which are not so well known as the later Sengoku emblems.

I've identified the butterfly of the Taira (Heike), the gentian-and-bamboo-leaves of the Minamoto (Genji) and the three-legged crow of the Kumano Shrine warrior monks (also their 'sacred banner' depicting the guardian deity, Kongo doji) but I'd love to know what clans are represented by the other emblems in the movie.

[Ii Naomasa]

I agree with FWSeal-dono that the turning point of the Genpei war was most likely when Yoshinaka pushed the Taira out of the capital. Without the influence of the nobility and the ability to so some easy 'networking', using the 20th century term, they were hard press to promote their side of the conflict and hence lost the chance to gain or maintain supporters. They seemed to do little during the remaining two years of the war. It could be argued that their more aggressive activities in 1185 were spurred by Yoshitsune's genocidal campaign. After all, the Japanese do like the status quo and the notion of a clan being completely eliminated probably brought a few fence-riding lords back to their red banners.

From what I've read, I have the feeling that when Munemori evacuated the capital, he partially hoped that he and his clan could take to the outer provinces and, as the Minamoto did a generation before, ride out the storm and await a time when the fates were being favorable. As this was a tactic that had proven to work in the past (rarely would entire clans be eliminated), it may have appealed to Munemori, who didn't seem to be able to think in excessively daring terms.

In that regard, one may point to a non-combative set of events that was the turning point for the Taira: the deaths of Kiyomori and Shigemori. Kiyomori was a man who stirred passion in people...both love and hate...but both could be used to manipulate things. He was a architect behind the Taira's rise to power and was a strong man, even in semi-retirement. Shigemori was well liked and often considered to be every bit his father, but with a manner and a personality that would redeem the Taira name. He was held up to the point where Munemori is often seen as a tiny worm compared to him. With the loss of their best two leaders (to non-battle situations of all things), they probably already lost a lot of the respect and influence they possessed. After all, the battles were not just fought between Minamoto and Taira families proper, but those who would ally themselves for whatever reason. While Munemori may have taken a brunt of abuse by historians, I have a feeling that he was even disliked in his own time just because of comparison to his father and brother. Meanwhile, the Minamoto had the benefit of being the underdogs, and hadn't been famous enough to really cause any groups trouble (like Kiyomori's famous squabbles with many of the temples in central Japan). They were a side to like if for no other reason than they were the lesser of two evils.

One can argue about Yoritomo's plans seeming to indicate he didn't consider the Taira a threat anymore in 1183-84 (though the real argument would be over 'anymore'). Even early on in the Genpei war it seems Yoritomo considered the whole Taira thing an afterthought. He wasn't consumed with any serious streak of revenge...at least, not a short term one anyway. Many of his actions early on were to obtain and subjugate the lands in the east. Whether he truly didn't care and just wanted to gain as much personal power as possible, or that he wanted to strike at the Taira when he was in a much stronger position is debatable. Although famine would limit activities in 1182, the first two years or so of the Genpei war see more interaction between Yoritomo's faction and other eastern lords than direct conflict between the Taira and Minamoto. Yoshitsune and Noriyori's forces were a containment force to stop Yoshinaka from succeeding (with the nice extra pretense of 'saving' the capital). FWSeal-dono himself mentioned quite well in a thread awhile back the complexity of the war beyond the basic 'Taira-Minamota' conflict that schools teach. I shall not even attempt to talk about such as succinctly

I agree with Yoshitsune-san's comment about Helen Craig McCullough's book. I had read it ages ago and just recently stumbled up on a nicely preserved 1966 edition for next to nothing and have enjoyed it this reading through even more than the first. Because the style of the original work is different from the Heike monogatari, it reads better (Ms. McCullough does a wonderful job, as she did with the Tale of the Heike). It's much less an attempt to do any kind of semi-historical record as it is a fanciful story. As has been said, it is a written amalgamation of many of the tales that had floated around Japan since the days when Yoshitsune was actually alive. It doesn't include every aspect...just those the author and the people of the 15th century liked...and, of course, it doesn't contain any of the additions and modifications made during the Edo period, which was when a lot of plays modified the tale to suit their desires. It also tries to stay within the realm of realism, so no Tengu-training or anything too fantastic. I thoroughly recommend it to anyone who wants a fun read of one of Japan's most cherished heroes. Granted, it's expensive to buy new, but you can probably find a used copy in the $15-20 range.

I'll babble a bit about some of Yoshitsune's legends later...my own words are pressing me for time. I'm glad to see some interesting discussions on historical topics arising again in this forum...for awhile it was beginning to grow stagnant.

[Grim]

Yoshitsune wrote:
"Yoshitsune: A Fifteenth Century Japanese Chronicle - Helen Craig McCullough, Stanford University Press, 1971, ISBN 0-8047-0270-5 "

*running at the nearest library to order it*
-thanks mate

FWseal, Li naomasa: I am drooling as I read your posts. There's too much info for my money, that's why by reading your post, I can narrow my search and pick up the right book. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Roman Totale XVII (and everyone): Do you think those shore crab with "samurai faces" really come from the same region of Dan No Ura battle or is it an nice add-on just for the movie.



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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes cannons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my cannons)
-Trad. libre

[Roman Totale XVII]

Grim, the 'Heike Crabs' actually exist, but the legend that they contain the spirits of dead Taira warriors is probably debatable http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif. See this earlier thread for further details: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000115.html

[FwSeal]

Ii, thanks for your own comments. You don't post here nearly as much as I'd like - but when you do, it makes for good reading. (at only 187 posts after all this time, nobody could accuse you shameless posts http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

One readily available source containing a legend that regards Yoshitsune is Penguin's 'Japanese No Dramas'. Included within this very interesting collection is the drama 'Funa Benkei', composed by Kanze Nobumitsu and drawn from the 'Gikeiki' our own Yoshitsune wrote about above. The play involves Yoshitsune's flight from the Kyoto area and involves Yoshitsune's lover Shizuka and the spirit of Taira Tomomori.

[Yoshitsune]

Agreed, some great stuff as always from Ii and FW. Another very accessible source for the Yoshitsune story is 'Legends of the Samurai' by Hiroaki Sato (ISBN:0-87951-619-4) This contains translated extracts of several old chronicles into very 'modern' language which appears a bit incongruous until you get used it. What I like about this book is that it uses chronicles such as the Mutsu Waki and the Azuma Kagami which I haven't seen translated before (Yoshitsune's life is traced with extracts from the Azuma Kagami and Heike Monogatari).

Hmm, I'm now beginning to think adopting this nickname some time ago was a bit presumptious, especially in a thread like this. I may change...

[FwSeal]

No more so than assuming the title 'Jibu no shoyu' http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Besides, Yoshitsune was not a unique name, although Minamoto Yoshitsune is the most famous to carry it...

Actually, there was another Yoshitsune back on the old forum (that would have been over a year ago) whom Ii reminds of a little (he knew quite a bit about the Gempei era).

[Yoshitsune]

Guess that was probably me, FW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I dropped out of the forums for a while and think I had to re-register here in March...

[FwSeal]

You learn something new every day http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I seem to remember you made a very interesting (and wonderfully bold) post ages ago on Stephen Turnbull...

I have to admit, I wouldn't mind seeing a symbol or tag for guys with more than a year in service http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif It's not always easy to keep track of who is who anymore...

[Ii Naomasa]

FWSeal-dono, thanks for the kinds words. Frankly, though, I am but a stream (a true babbling brook, maybe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) whose posts are sometimes worth a stop and admiration, but you are a rich river that floods the fields of others' minds and fertilizes their own thoughts. Okay...enough mutual admiration...but I've had that compliment in my head for sometime and finally decided to use it.

As far as I go back (and it goes back to a month or three before Shogun came out) I've always gone by the name of the Red Devil himself, just because that was the name I decided upon for online play (for what little I do of it, sadly). I can see the confusion with myself and Yoshitsune-san, however, as both of us have consistently spoken of our appreciation for 12th century Japan and our respect, but not the deity-like adoration some people have here for Dr. Turnbull.

The Azuma Kagami piece that is quoted in Sato's book is very interesting, if dry, and has made me want to seek out a full version. Despite Seal-dono's aid in giving me the name and author of a version that came out awhile back (I don't have it in front of me, otherwise I'd pass it on), I haven't had much luck in tracking down a used copy. The first striking difference between the Azuma Kagami and Yoshitsune is the description of Minamoto Yoshitsune himself. The Azuma Kagami describes Yoshitsune as being a little bug-eyed with less than perfect teeth, while the latter work makes the title character a very handsome youth. Where does the truth lie? As with many things involving the Minamoto hero, it's hard to tell. I would assume the Azuma Kagami to be little less biased, given the nature of its writing, but there's no proof that the author of it ever met Yoshitsune personally.

A good book for those who find the style of writing in the Tale of Heike a little difficult is 'Genpei', by Kara Dalkey. It's a recent 'fantasy' book that's a retelling of the events covered by the Tale of Heike, with some additional fantastic elements that fit well with the culture of Japan. It reads smoother than the Tale of Heike does, but while a close imitation of the work, she chose some of the more colorful variations on the tale, as opposed to the more straightforward method use in the Heike Monogatari, so while you definitely get a flavor for the period, it would still be worth it to read the 'original' materials already listed here.

One thing I've found interesting is how well many of these individuals knew their family history, even if they were captives or exiles for most of their lives. For example, how or when Yoshitsune took his full adult name isn't entirely known for certain, but the name he eventually took was Minamoto Sama Kuro Yoshitsune. 'Sama', relating back to his father's position as Master of the Stables of the Left, and 'Kuro' meaning 'ninth son' (Yoshitsune being your typical borrowing of a syllable from the father's name). At times, he's more often referred to as Kuro Yoshitsune than other variations.

Historically, we know that Yoshitsune WAS the ninth known son of Minamoto Yoshitomo, his eight older brothers being:

'Akugenda' Yoshihira being the oldest who died planning revenge on the Taira after they foiled his father's revolt in the Heiji uprising.

Tomonaga, who was injured either during or shortly after the uprising and eiter committed suicide or had someone help him do so.

Yoritomo, who would become famous as Japan's first controlling Shogun.

Yoshikado, who died as a youth.

Mareyoshi, who did not get himself freed like the others had and had to kill himself when the Minamoto arose again on orders of his Taira-associated caretakers.

Noriyori, who would be the 'normal' son among two spectacular brothers.

Zenji, who somehow managed to avoid Yoritomo's paranoid eye and would meet his end among the conspiracies of the Hojo.

Gien, who, like Zenji, had become a monk, fought under the brothers' hapless uncle, Yukiie and died early in Genpei war.

It must be a testament to the record keeping of the day that when Yoshitsune (who was either going by his youth name of Ushiwaka ('sweet ox') or a monastery name of Shanao (he served as a page as part of his exile)) decided to take his name, he was well aware of his position in the family structure. Given that his family was scattered, his father's name ill-spoken by many, and some of his brothers dead, that seems a little remarkable for a rogue page who's uncovering his past.

Then again, I don't believe we have a definite description of when Yoshitsune took his final name. It is quite possible that he got the name later on, or was given such by Yoritomo.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Ii Naomasa]

I hate posting back-to-back, but since it boots this thread up at the same time and adds a bit of information (on a similar, but slightly different topic), I decided to go for it.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my discussion of Yoshitsune picking his name that strikes me as odd is that, of all the warrior sons of Minamoto Yoshitomo, Noriyori is the one with the odd name.

As I mentioned, it was traditional for sons to take one of their father's characters as part of his name. You'll see this often in both true sons and adopted sons (sometimes samurai would even change their name to incorporate a character of a lord they highly respected, in effect, acting like a son). Hence, that's why you see among the sons of Yoshitomo: YOSHIhira, TOMOnaga, YoriTOMO, YOSHIkado, MareYOSHI, and YOSHItsine. Gien and Zenji are monk names and hence don't apply (although I believe I came across Gien's adult name as one point and it also fit the bill, if I remember correctly).

But notice poor Noriyori. Does anyone know why his adult name doesn't follow suit with his other brothers? Was it his parentage (while the other sons were born of 'wives' or established mistresses, Noriyori was the son of a common prostitute)? It would seem rather harsh that he couldn't bear a symbolic link to his father, especially considering that he is always listed as a brother.

I unfortunately do not have much history on Noriyori prior to his generalship along with Yoshitsune under Yoritomo.Was he adopted into a family and took their father's name? Did he even know his true heritage until later? I think part of the pity I sometimes feel towards this mundane Minamoto started when I realized that even by name he was an outsider.

[FwSeal]

This MAY explain the issue of Noriyori's name: he is supposed to have been tutored in his youth by a certain Fujiwara Norisue. Also, he had an uncle named Yoshinori I (or, at least, according to some Minamoto trees). Perhaps it was from one of these men that his name was derived? Either way, it does seem to me that there was often a method to a father's madness when it came to naming his sons. Takeda Shingen, for example, named one of his sons Katsuyori - about the only of his sons not to include 'Nobu' or 'Haru'. Despite what a certain Western author wrote once in passing, this was not done to show a special regard for Katsuyori (or, for that matter, as a subtle slur on him). Rather, as Katsuyori was intended to take over the Suwa house, he was given a name that best suited that family ('Yori' in particular being common in Suwa names). So, at any rate, it does seem possible that Yoshitomo had some reason for naming Noriyori what he did - although I have never heard any actual explanation (that really is one of those little questions that occurs to you and that you think you should be able to find out easily enough - except you find that nothing actually mentions it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif