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Celtic_Winter

11-18-2004, 23:18

Celtic_Winter

11-18-2004, 23:20

Now,
here are some units, that I have been brainstorming with.
If I have made a historical mistake with my description or the unit, please feel free to correct me.

last updated: December 2, 2004

cavalry:

Spakhs-
the spakh was one of the main cavalry units used by the Ottoman empire.
Usually armed with a spear and a sword, The Spakh is perfect for crushing
enemy formations. Armoured properly most of the time.

Tatar horse archers-
Tatar horse archers usually carried a bow and a small sword. Never really
being equiped with a lot of armor, the Tatar horse archer was one of the most
lethal archers of it´s time. Very weak vs cavalry and infantry attacks
but great at crippling light armor units.

Hussars-
(note:there will be different Hussars, Winged Hussars for Poland and Hungary and a mercenary Prussian Hussar wouldn't be a bad idea)
Light cavalry, one of the main back bones in European cavalry attacks. Their high speed made them excellent for ambushing enemy troops and chasing them off the battlfield. Usually very weak with very little armor, the hussar was great for chasing off the enemy or sneeking up behind the enemy, very effective if used properly.

Cossacks-
(note: like the Hussars, there will probably be different Cossacks in the game)
Russian for "Kazak"(In Turkish it means "Free man" or "Adventurer") the Cossacks come from the areas around the black and caspian sea. They where independent until they where asked by the Russians to give them military service in return of privileges.

infantry units:

Jannisaries-
(note:there will most likely be more than one type of Jannisaries in the MOD)
Jannisaries where the core of the Turkish armies. The jannisaries where christian slaves,
usually taken as children, and taught to be loyal to the Turkish forces since their enslavement.
The Jannisaries didn´t really wear armour, but where excellent with their musket. Weak against melee infantry.

Ottoman pikemen-
the ottoman pikemen usually occupied the frontline of the ottoman armies.
Their main goal was to defend the artillery and janissaries and to hold back
cavalry charges. Greatly effective towards cavlary, the ottoman pikemen
usually wore a chain mail.

Russian Strelet-
the Strelets where the basic unit of the Russian army for a long time.
Appeared around 1550, in order to be a Strelet, you had to inherit it
from your father. Armed with a properly desgined Russian musket,
the Samopal, The Strelets also carried sabers and pole axes. Excellent ranged units, but weak in close combat.

Venetian infantry-
The Venetian republic, being one of the most important powers of Christian Europe, made the Venetian infantry very lethal. They where well armored and where equipped with a shield, a pike and a small sword.

Neapolitanian infantry:
Naples, being the largest city in most of Italy for a while, was used to fighting several battles with different enemies. Being a city, that has been fought over for years, the Neapolitanians have mannaged to create an infantry that is above the average. Usually, citymen who use a typical chainmail, a large wodden shield with some iron applied to it and a a long sword or spear.

Wallachian militia-
Wallachia, being a relatively not very important country during this time period, not as powerful as other states such as France or Piedmont, did mannage to leave their mark behind in European history. Famous for their leader, Vlad Tepes, most Wallachian armies consisted of militia being backed up by a few archers and some noble cavalry from the richer Wallachian families.
Wallachian militia usually wore very little armor, but where excellent defenders of their lands.

Wallachian boyar cavalry-
The Wallachian cavalry was made up of noble blood. Meaning, that just about everyone that was part of the Wallachian boyar cavalry, was of an important family. The Wallachian boyar cavlary where well armored and where properly trained. Perfect for fighting against melee infantry and cavalry.

Artillery-
Mortar-
Used mostly for siege purpouses, the mortar was one of the artillery pieces that was used the most during several years. Very weak against pretty much all attacks, but very useful when used for siege purpouses.

Bombard-
Similar to the mortar, but a bit more powerful. Used for siege purpouses and sometimes against infantry.

Naval units-
Galley-
Expensive but can change the tide of a battle easily. Equiped with forward mounted cannons, the galley has a big advantage over many warships due to speed and the way their cannons are positioned.

Frigate-
Easy to build and powerful. They are not as strong as a galley, but they can fire faster than the galley. They can maneuver faster and like the galley, they are equiped with side mounted cannons, which gives them an advantage in big sea battles.

Yacht-
A weak version of the galley. Their cannons take a long time to reload and they are not equiped the same way the galley has them equiped.

Venetian galley-
Venice, being one of the main sea powers of Europe during this time period, had one or the most powerful navies in the world. The Venetian galley is a little stronger than the regular Galley due to it's design and amount of cannons.

Uesugi Kenshin

11-19-2004, 04:41

I believe that some of the Turkish Jannissaries were armoured and they were considered the cream of the crop because of their high discipline and skill, many christian families under Ottoman rule even bribed officials to accept their children into the Jannisary forces!

SwordsMaster

11-19-2004, 12:59

Excellent heavy infantry unit but weak against melee infantry.

That is a bit of a contradiction isnt it?

Celtic_Winter

11-19-2004, 15:19

That is a bit of a contradiction isnt it?
I apologize, I made myself not very clear with that statement.
by heavy infantry, I meant like, with muskets, as very good units with those weapons. Like I mentioned, there will be different types of Jannisaries, They will all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Silver Rusher

11-19-2004, 20:05

Thanks for this CW. Keep up the good work!

Celtic_Winter

11-21-2004, 19:18

Celtic_Winter

11-21-2004, 19:27

(to be updated)
Hussars-

Neapolitan Hussars:
In Naples, there is a national heritage for Feudal Knights, but now with the evolution of guns light cavalry are equally important. And that is when the Hussar comes in...

Hussars:
The Hussar is a rather weak unit, but if used properly and with skill, it can be very effective. The Hussars carry a sword and are not heavily armoured.
very useful for ambushes or assisting heavy cavalry attacks.

Winged Hussar:
The Winged Hussar, was usually found with the Polish armies, but at times, you could find them in other European armies. The Winged Hussar, is equiped with a pike and wears proper armor. Excellent heavy cavalry unit. Very fast, well armored and very effective against melee infantry and cavalry, the Winged Hussars, where highly respected.

andriyko

11-23-2004, 09:40

The cossacks, post to be updated.
Cossacks-

Ukranian sich Cossack-
The Ukranian cossack, Unlike the other Cossacks, dosnt carry a spear but a sword and a bow. Good for tactical attacks on enemy flanks.

Don Cossack-
Not as powerful as the Ukranian Sich Cossack, the Don Cossack uses a spear and is not as heavily armored. Good for melee cavalry attacks.

Two points:
1. Cossacks Cavalry didn't carry missile wepon in battle, usually (both pike and sabre were often used though). Instead, Cossack Infantry is famous for it (Cossack Musketeers together w/ Janissaries were the best in the region).

2. No sizeable body of Cossacks existed to form Don Cossacks before mid 18th century. Also, they were same Sitch Cossacks who migrated there.

Also, word Cossack has many versions of origin, free man just seem to romantized to be true -- most likely it's Turkik for rogue/brihand.

PS Before you ask: no, I didn't base my statement on the game "Cossack", the game just seems to be quite accurate ;)

Celtic_Winter

11-23-2004, 22:54

Two points:
1. Cossacks Cavalry didn't carry missile wepon in battle, usually (both pike and sabre were often used though). Instead, Cossack Infantry is famous for it (Cossack Musketeers together w/ Janissaries were the best in the region).

2. No sizeable body of Cossacks existed to form Don Cossacks before mid 18th century. Also, they were same Sitch Cossacks who migrated there.

Also, word Cossack has many versions of origin, free man just seem to romantized to be true -- most likely it's Turkik for rogue/brihand.

PS Before you ask: no, I didn't base my statement on the game "Cossack", the game just seems to be quite accurate ;)
Hey Andriyko,
thank you for the corrections. Apparently, this small book I have on the cossacks, has a sketch of a cossack with a sword and a bow, but ill take your word for it.

cegorach

11-25-2004, 09:39

I am from a rival mod, but I am posting this to correct one serious mistake in the list.

"Hussars:
The Hussar is a rather weak unit, but if used properly and with skill, it can be very effective. The Hussars carry a sword and are not heavily armoured.
very useful for ambushes or assisting heavy cavalry attacks.

Winged Hussar:
The Winged Hussar, was usually found with the Polish armies, but at times, you could find them in other European armies. The Winged Hussar, is equiped with a pike and wears proper armor. Excellent heavy cavalry unit. Very fast, well armored and very effective against melee infantry and cavalry, the Winged Hussars, where highly respected."

First thing at that time light Hussars were using a lance and a curved shield with a sabre as the secondary weapon.
There were several types of this units

Szekely Hussars ( armed with bow as well), Hungarian Hussars ( armoured), Croatian Hussars ( lighter than the Hungarian), Rac ( Serbian Hussars) and Ussaria ( Polish light hussars).

All came from the Rac, but were different in some way.
Rac should be mercenaries.

Later ( around 1570)

Polish Winged Hussars ( Husaria) appeared - a very different cavalry unit, which dominated the battlefields of middle/eastern Europe for more than a century and were invincible for about 50 years ( to 1626).
They were fast, armoured ( not really heavily) and very disciplined. Used horses with incredible stamina, 5 m long HOLLOW lances, 1,5 long sword, a special 'Husaria' sabres, wheellock pistols and sometimes an axe or a warhammer.
Wings - 1 earlier, 2 after around 1630 which could scare anemy horses and infantrymen and protected from Tatar lassooes.
Were using several types of formation to counter all kind of enemies - from iron-hard Swedish infantry to agile Tatars and numerous Russian or Ottoman troops.

When winning usually were using about 100 dead, killing 30-100 times more. When losing usually they did most of damage in enemy ranks, and every defeat they suffered was something worth describing in details.

Because they were so successfull some armies tried to copy them, which proved to be impossible.
You simply cannot give wings somebody and expect him to be as good as this unique unit.
The only unit worth mentioning is Russian 'Gusary ' - there were about 1000 of them ( maximum), but were never so good as Husaria ( which scared even Gustav Adolph).

Anyway here are the decsriptions of both units from P&M TW for MTW, use them if you like.

One thing to note Russian Gusary didn't use the 1,5 m long lance-like sword, which was one of most important weapons of the Hussars.

"Gusary are the russian response to the Polish Winged Hussars. Although they look similar and are armed with similar weapons they are still a copy, and a copy is rarely as good as the original"

"Polish Winged Hussars are the very elite of the Polish army. Armed with 5 m. long hollowed lances, heavy sabres, pistols, 1.5 long swords and mounted on the best steeds in the country these professional soldiers are the scourge of all enemies of the Commonwealth. Thanks to their lances and special tactics even enemy pikemen are in trouble."

If you need more info just ask.

My regards Cegorach/Hetman ~;)

Uesugi Kenshin

11-25-2004, 20:06

Nice to know. :bow:

Suleimen the Magnificent

12-01-2004, 08:40

Spanish Musketmen
Armed with a heavy spanish musket and has a rapier for self defence. As these are professenial soldiers they are armoured in proper spanish war gear (helm, breastplate ect.). As muskets could only be used by strong men I think they should be a 2 turn unit.

Spanish Pikemen
Armed with a long (5.2m) pike and a sword for close combat. Well protected by armour. Should not be too proficant with his sword.

Spanish Harquebusier
Armed with a arquebuse and a broad sword. Has only spanish style helm.

'Gentlemen Adventurer' (any other name ideas?)
Mercenary. Recruitable in Spanish-French-Italian Mederterain (sp?) coasts. Armed with hand and half sword. Armoured in a similar fashion to gothic foot knight (but more up to date. I'll try post a pic soon). Expensive to recruit and mantain.

I'll try and post more later.

Do you want ideas for ships yet?

Celtic_Winter

12-01-2004, 17:02

Silver Rusher

12-01-2004, 19:34

Suleman! I thought you would never return. Welcome back.

Suleimen the Magnificent

12-02-2004, 01:13

Sorry Silver, I have had a few deaths in the family lately.

Celtic Winter, most of the direct info I have for Mediterranean navies comes for John Francis Guilmartin Jr's 'Gunpowder and Galleys'. Most of the stuff that I post about atlantic fleets will be use more indirect evidence but probably will still be accurate. But the book has a bit about them too. I'll try anyway.

What is your info about? (Mediterranean or Atlantic?)

Uesugi Kenshin

12-02-2004, 04:28

That sucks....

Celtic_Winter

12-02-2004, 04:49

Suleimen the Magnificent

12-02-2004, 05:26

Infantry
Soldados (Spanish Naval Swordsmen) (my spanish is no good, is this correct?)
Armed with rapiers or broadswords. Lightly armoured, small breastplate (no backplate). Should be recruitable in port-type structure. Expensive to maintain. (Might be better as a Merc. Can mercs be faction specific?)

Companeros Sobresalientes (Spanish Naval Harquebusier)
Armed and armoured similar to Spanish Harquebusier. But is much better trained, both in marksmanship and in the use of his sword. A small unit (cav size?), 2 turns to train to simulate the social condition in which they were created.

Venitean (sp?) Swordsman
Armed with sword and armoured in leather. Has a buckler. Excellent light fighters.

Venitean Crossbowmen
Recruited from their formidable naval contingent these crossbowmen are armed with a sword and a crossbow. Armoured in leathers. They should be good with their swords as naval combat demands it.

A general comment for the Veniteans, I think all their units should be very costly to maintain so that the player is forced to raise them only in a time of war. This would simulate that fact that when the veniteans went to war they were forced to draw troops from their merchant classes, with the resulting loss of profit.

edit: have renamed Spanish Naval Harquebusier, and naval swordsman, as per Celtic Winter's suggestion

Celtic_Winter

12-02-2004, 06:31

Maybe to make the names of the units more interesting, we can have them in the native languages. For example, for Aragonese infantry, we can have it like "infanteria Aragonesa". But then again, that might confuse the player a bit..

Silver Rusher

12-02-2004, 08:50

Oh, well I'm very sorry to hear that Suleiman.

Suleimen the Magnificent

12-04-2004, 16:21

Silver Rusher

12-04-2004, 16:25

Celtic Winter, I would like you to state in the first post of this thread that everthing from 'Jassinary Musketeers' down was submitted by myself. Thank you.

Also, I say that I post my ideas for ships and ypu post yours and we see which sounds both the most sensible and the most viable.
Very strange, when I made the list it gave credit to you. Maybe he just accidently left it out. I'll edit it now-

EDIT: OK, I can't edit his post. When CW gets back I'm sure he'll edit it.

Celtic_Winter

12-04-2004, 17:18

Celtic Winter, I would like you to state in the first post of this thread that everthing from 'Jassinary Musketeers' down was submitted by myself. Thank you.

Also, I say that I post my ideas for ships and ypu post yours and we see which sounds both the most sensible and the most viable.

Finished. I apologize for not giving you credit.
I have already posted some of the ship information I have, check it out.
And I can do all the language translating for the Italian,Spanish and maybe German units since those are the languages I know.

Yggdrasill

12-04-2004, 18:36

All right, I'll post now what I think should be the Ottoman cavalry. I really have a lot of info on this subject and I compiled as best as could be done given the limitations and the requirement to generalize for the purposes of gameplay, so I strongly suggest that you make this list the official one, as I am not just guessing here. I'll back up every unit with a picture to give the modellers something to work with without delay. I've also tried to somehow standardise the models so as not to create too much job for them.

Of course you're free to give suggestion and correct if I'm wrong, but don't do it if you only have a vague recollection of something you read years ago.

1. Kapikullu Sipahi - or Sipahi of the Porte as they were labelled in MTW, this is the same thing only 'official'. To model it, basically copy the Sipahi in scale armour 1530 on the site I posted. You won't find a better model than this (in fact the artist who made it basically copied a surviving armour in Florence). The horse armour is a lot shorter than the one in RTW Cataphract type units, extending just below the horse's belly (so as not to impede movement). It is armed with a heavy lance and a sabre, however somebody should animate a couched lance type charge for this (and other) cav unit. The helmet is a standard sisak, a very often type which we will be using for many other units as well so it's worth modelling accurately.

2. Timarli Sipahi - or a basic sipahi unit funded through the timar system of land grants. Somewhat lighter (i'll send you a picture Rusher, as soon as I can find a scanner), horse was armoured as well but only with a chanfron (a plate thet covered the front of the horse's head) and a scale apron to protect the chest and neck (basically half of the armour worn by number 1 guy - this is optional as it wasn't that often). Armed also with a lance and sabre (we need to model a sabre as well since there are none in RTW). This was basic battle cav for the Ottomans. The way it should be modelled is that number 1 are similar to the sacred band of Carthage (takes 2 turns to train, very expensive, very effective, fights to the death) while number two is a more cost effective variant.

3. Gebelis - armed retainers of the sipahi, they were armed at the expense of the sipahi, had no land grants of their own but hoped to acquire one throuh service. Should be modelled according to the Ottoman Sipahi from the batlle of Sisak 1593 on the aforementioned site. Armed with a bow and a sabre, but not classed as light cav.
Important - is it possible to give units both a bow and a shield to use with a sabre? It is impoortant since Ottoman cav and Jannissaries used shield slung over the saddle or back while shooting arrows.

4. Akinji - the famous light cav, armed with bows and sabre and shield. Will post a great pen drawing later.

5. Deli - scout, light horseman, armed with a lance shield and sabre. Picture pending, also great pen drawing

6. Voyniq cavalry - these were Cristian vassals that served the sultan. Should be modelled like a cross between Western heavy cav and turkish sipahi. These are very important and in at least two major battles were instrumental in Ottoman victory (Varna and Nicopolis). Did not exist beyond the 15th century. We'll model them like a copy of a Hungarian armoured cav, maybe change the colour or something. Will post a picture when I get around to creating Hungarian units.

7. Some merc cav (like the Numidians for Carthage) - Tatar horse archer (I think everybody knows how they looked like, but if necessary, I have a great pic), Arab cav (for use in the desert), Wallachian cav (the only one I can offer no info on, I have only one picture and it isn't very good, maybe somebody can help).

And for the love of everything NO CAMELS!

As a final note, I think we really should be getting started on doing comprehensive lists of units for other factions as well. This is by far the most difficult thing to do. I'll post the same for the Russians, Italians, Moors and the Mamluks (and yes I vote for them too!). I can also help a lot with the English, Spanish (during the 15th century period), Germans and French during the 16th.

I hope to post info on Ottoman infantry by tomorrow evening.

Also, if anybody has any info on the Spanish infantry known as TERCIOS it is vital. They were widely regarded as the best infantry during early to late 16th century but I have absaolutely no info on them. I even don't know how they were armed (pikes, guns or sword and buckler?). A picture would be great.

Silver Rusher

12-04-2004, 21:34

I'll use a system of levels for this.

Level 1: Akinji (or "Turkish Horsemen" as they may well be labelled)

Level 2: Timarli Sipahi (I'd label this as Sipahi to avoid confusion)

Level 3: Voynik/Voyniq Cavalry

Level 4: Gebelis

And the Kapikullu Sipahi shall be the general's guard. I feel the Deli to seem fairly useless so I shall regret that I think they would take up too much space in the game. Not everyone can just look at a cavalry unit called "Kapikullu Sipahi" and say, "Oh yeah, of course I know what that is."

That is the ottoman's cavalry list.

Ottoman Infantry List:

Level 1: Town Guardsman

Level 2: Ottoman Infantry

Level 3: Janissary

Level 4: Janissary Heavy Infantry

And the recommended archer list is coming soon.

Yggdrasill

12-04-2004, 22:17

Well Delis are essentially not necessary, so it wouldn't hurt eliminating them.

Everything else is as I suggested except...

Akinjis have to be named Akinjis. It's just the way it is. Naming them Tukish cav or something similar would be like naming Companion cavalry of Macedonia Heavy cavalry. This is the name they were feared all over Europe. This is the name you should name them in the mod. Please. Akin means raid, plunder, attack - this is what they did - attacked, pillaged, burned, basically destroyed the opponents ability to fight. This is a must.

As for Sipahi instead of Timarli S., I guess it's fine. To avoid confusion. But, please General's Sipahi sounds so generic, unimaginative... either name them as I suggested, or Sipahi of the Porte or at the very least Sultan's Sipahi... Names are a very cheap way of adding credibility and historical accuracy to the game. We're not CA, we can't do everything to their high standards. We need simple little tricks like this.

Also, the infantry list needs some work. For one, azaps never used maces, they were infantry archers, then pioneers, and then finally arquebus armed infantry.

The merc cav are basically cav that other factions are gonna use (tatar archer) or we already have them (arab cav, sort of).

Do you still want me to post pictures? It seems that you have this already figured out how you want it to be.

Silver Rusher

12-04-2004, 22:23

Alright, alright. Just light feedback is needed. It's not the final list, just a primer kind of thing. A lot of the infantry were Suleiman's idea.

Silver Rusher

12-04-2004, 22:42

Some Ottoman Range Units:

Level 1: Archers

Level 2: Azap Bowmen

Level 3: Janissary Bowmen

Level 4: Trebuchet

And Gunpowder units:

Level 1: Handgunners

Level 2: Janissary Arquebusiers

Level 3: Ballistic Cannon

Level 4: Siege Cannon

Feedback would be nice.

Silver Rusher

12-04-2004, 22:43

And Polish Cavalry (feedback would be nice):

Level 1: Light Hussars

Level 2: Horse Archers

Level 3: Hussars

Level 4: Winged Hussars

Yggdrasill

12-05-2004, 18:52

Suggestions for Ottoman infantry (both combat and missile):

15th century:
1. Azap – rank and file soldiers, young free Muslim peasants serving as infantry archers, with a sabra (sword) and shield as a secondary weapon. Quite good in hand to hand combat as well, not just pure missile troops. Light armour, just a mail shirt and a helmet (sisak).

2. Yaya – vassal Christian troops. Light infantry, crossbow armed, sword and shield secondary weapon. Not really necessary, however they would be the only Ottoman crossbowmen so I think that it would be good to include them as well. Could be modelled easy by modifying Azaps (give em crossbows and a different soft armour like the Egyptian spearmen, no helmet).

3. Voyniqs – also vassal Christian troops, however these are armoured soldiers armed with polearms (helebards), shield and a sword, similar to generic western militia or something.

4. Janissary bowmen (or Nefer J. Archer, to use an authentic title) – Inf. Archers, secondary sabre and shield, armoured like azaps however much better fighting qualities.

5. Armoured J. (or Zirhli Nefer J) – Heavily armoured Jannissaries. They should be modelled exactly as in MTW, since that unit was one of the few that was very accurate. Polearm, shield and asabre, good armour.

6. Ottoman milita – As the name suggests. A good picture is on the site I suggested under Ottoman infantrymen in the battle of Sisak 1593. A polearm (tirpan battleaxe, shield and sabre, no armour, wears turban).

7. Optional – Siege assault infantry (or Serdengecti, literally head riskers) – Elite infantry armoured in the very comple armour the Ottomans can provide, a metal shield that can resist firearms, sabre or an axe as the main weapon. Melee infantry.

8. Dervish bektashi – similar to screaming women. These priests often accompanied Ottoman armies and would fire up the troops before battle. Very simple to model – a turban, little clothes (peasant style), a sword. Nothing fancy.

16th:
No more yaya inf as they disappeared.

1. Voyniqs – the same as before, no change
2. Ottoman militia – the same
3. azap – the same uniform, instead of bow now has arquebus.
4. Jannisary musketman – No armour. Typican Jannissary outfit (the hat, long yellow or green overcoat). No shield. Just a musket and a sabre.
5. Zirhli nefer – the same
6. Jannissary bowman – same
7. Serdengecti – the same
8. Dervish – the same.

All in all, 10 units, one of which is just a modification (azap arquebus). Not too much I think.

Important ---- Ottomans never adopted the volley fire tactic, instead relied on individual marksmanship. Can that be modelled?
Also, you initially suggested that we include Ottoman pikeman. This would be ahistorical as they never adopted the pike or any kind of linear, phalanx type tactics. This is going to be a major problem for them in the 16th century, however that was actually the case in real life. So basically, they are incredibly strong in the 15th with easily the best available army (best artillery, best cav and best infantry – the Jannissaries). In the 16th the only element that was still better than their opponents was the cav.

Yggdrasill

12-05-2004, 19:03

Hey you added my name! Thanx I'm even more amped now. I'll start work on the Moors right away. should be easy as they had a very limited range of units. Or have you changed your mind abot the Mamluks? They really are quite important.

I know very little of Polish cav of the era except that they were probably unique in mixing eastern and western elements having contact with both (the Teutonic order and the Turks/Golden horde). I do know that the hussar was probably not used even thou they most definetely had Hussar type units. Why? Well hussar is a Hungarian word, means 20 (as in one soldier for every 20 households) and was first started to be used sometime in late 15th century. It didn't spread to other countries until the mid 17th or later.
There are a few guys that seem well informed about that over at Pike and Shot forum. Maybe we should drop them a post, I'm sure they'd be quiete happy to help.

Also, what is the final word on the military revolution? As you can see, I divided the Ottoman inf (it was not necessary for the cav as they didn't move an inch from were they were in late 15th) into two categories as I don't know how you plan to do this. What is the end year?

Yggdrasill

12-05-2004, 19:08

Oh one more thing. When we start doing the reaserch for the Poles, we should combine it with the Lithuanians. Makes sense, after all they were in a union for much of the period. As I recall some very interesting javelin armed and Mongol style light cav to be had.

eadingas

12-05-2004, 19:54

What ending date do you have? The hussars don't start until Bathory in 1570's, and peak of their power is XVIIth century. Before that, polish cav is still strong, but not nearly as strong, and fights in a different style, more similar to typical western knights. It was still being at times defeated by western-type infantry or armored heavy cavalry of Teutonic Knights. Eventually, Poland won over Teutons economically rather than military. Lithuanian light cav was equally important in Poland's battles at the time.

Silver Rusher

12-05-2004, 20:19

A few stuff to be cleared up here now;

1. Mamluks are in the game, when you asked the list had not been properly updated.

2. The Polish and Lithuanians are combined.

3. Hussars (excluding light hussars) are quite late in the game, so no worries there.

End date is 1700. (units from the 1600s are scarcely in there, the time is only stretched that far to give more time to the player)

eadingas

12-05-2004, 23:22

Uesugi Kenshin

12-06-2004, 04:38

Who cares about their turf??? This is an independant mod, it can be made into whatever we see fit, with SR having the most control.

This can be incorporated into the tech tree, advancements that appear late are gained later, due to building times...

Yggdrasill

12-06-2004, 21:43

Mamluk Egypt units
Cavalry

1. Khassaki Mamluks - bodyguard unit, heavy cav similar to Kapikullu Sipahi of the Ottoman. Horse is covered in armour. Lance, shied and sabre as weapons.
2. Qaranis Mamluks - Also heavy cavalry, very good armour for the rider, equal to the Khassaki. No horse armour.
3. Amir's Mamluk - Medium cavalry, lance, shield and sabre, no armour for the horse, medium armour for the rider.
4. Halqa Light cavalry - free men serving as horse archers. Bow and sabre armed, mail shirt and helmet.
5. Merc cavalry - Beduin Arab cav (the same as for the Ottoman Turks). Spear and shield armed, maybe bow.

Silver Rusher

12-06-2004, 21:53

I don't think 300 years span is a good idea. There've been too much development in warfare over that time, sometimes drastic - and you're be entering the turf of Pikes&Muskets :) If you need more game turns, why not use Myrdraal's 4 turns/year mod?
Don't get me started on whose turf is who's.

If it is really wrong for mods to leap onto the turf of other mods, then by simply existing the P&M guys not only ran onto our turf but went to sack our biggest cities. By existing the P&M guys are giving us HUGE competition.

But turf does not matter, so they are fine, and we and they are free to do whatever we want. I was planning my mod AGES AND AGES before the P&M guys came along, and I decided on ending in the 1700s almost right at the beginning. So don't talk to me about "turf". Plus, the 300 year turn span is only to allow the player more time.

However, the four turns per year thing is an appeal, although it would make the game quite long winded. I'll think about that one.

eadingas

12-06-2004, 22:40

Gee, don't get all excited, there was a smiley at the end of that sentence that you all seemed to not notice... but I still think 300 years is a bit too much. This is a period of history in which simply too much has happened - even the list of valid important factions by 1400 and by 1700 is much too different, not to mention the improvements in warfare...

Silver Rusher

12-07-2004, 08:50

Yeah, maybe I did over react a bit there...

But really the idea isn't to follow history in that period but instead to give the player more time. I think that's quite important in itself. However, use of the Myrdraal's mod is full of bugs, so maybe it isn't a good idea.

cegorach

12-07-2004, 10:58

I was planning my mod AGES AND AGES before the P&M guys came along, and I decided on ending in the 1700s almost right at the beginning.

No offence, but P&M for Rome is just another branch of XVI-XVII mod for a new engine, that is all.

Besides P&M TW is more for late XVI and XVIIth century warfare i.e. earlier wars are not much of our concern, especially 1402-1480 period which is completely not for us - our timeframe historically is 1480-1700.

Also our team + supporters are mostly from earlier XVI-XVII thread which still continues.
I am simply doing my work and you are doing your.

My regards Cegorach/Hetman ~:)

Eastside Character

12-07-2004, 23:23

You're right Cegorach. Besides, Citadel as I see isn't going to be like P&M for RTW even a bit. :duel: ~D
This one is like a completely different story. :book:

Regards,
EC

Uesugi Kenshin

12-08-2004, 05:00

Exactly both mod teams have every right to do whatever they want to, as long as they are not blatantly stealing images and such...

Silver Rusher

12-08-2004, 08:00

Heheh, let's not turn this thread into a discussion about the rights modders have to do what they want please.

And just one last point though- cegorach1, what I meant was that I was making the mod for Rome ages before your mod for Rome came along. Sorry if it wasn't clear, but mine was one of the first Rome mods to be announced.

Uesugi Kenshin

12-09-2004, 04:48

OK I will stop now....... It could have been a great debate but now off to work for the greater good.....CTW!

Yggdrasill

12-17-2004, 15:42

Last week was exam frenzy so I had very little time but I'm back with the rest of the Mamluks and Moors:

Mamluk infantry:
1. Halqa militia – militia type unit, however they are not spearmen but infantry archers. As any militia week in hand to hand combat, but as archers they are not bad.
2. Ashir infantry – the rank and file inf of the Mamluks, a cloth covered mail armour, shield, sword and a spear. Cannot form phalanx but are effective enough against cavalry. Very good in melee
3. Naffatin (or naphta throwers or whatever you choose to call them) – just like the ones in MTW. No armour, just a grey coat and a grey hood, to simulate some sort of fireproof fabric, and a small sword for close combat. Maybe a shield as well.
4.North African marine (or Maghribi marine) – a crossbow armed infantry, should be available to the Turks and the Moors as a merc. Not armoured, however has high defense skill. Similar to Cilician pirates in RTW.
5. African handgunner – a typical Mamluk firearm unit. Armed with a arquebus, armoured in mail, helmet, caries a sword or sabre as secondary weapon. Should be made into a effective melee inf as well.

All things considered not a very good selection of infantry units, but that is what was available to them

Granada

Cavalry:
1. Ghulam guard – bodyguard units for the faction family. Simply copy the Khassaki mamluk, change a few bits and pieces of equipement and done. Since they have no other spear armed shock cavalry, maybe this unit should be increased in size to a regular cavalry unit, rather than what is typical of other guard units.
2. Armoured cavalry – javelin armed medium cavalry, similar to Pontic heavy cavalry. Wears a mail shirt, a brigandine of a distinctivly Moorish shape, helmet, a leather daraqa shield and a sword.
3. Jinettes – Light cavalry, mail armoured covered by clothes, a helm wrapped in a turban, daraqa shield, javelins and a sword.
4. Saharan cavalry – available as mercenary cavalry for other factions, for Moors a light cav armed with spear and shield and sword, very high valour, high endurance extremely cheap to recruit and uphold, to simulate that they were religious volunteers. Any other faction that uses them as merc should get a 'stripped down' version,
5. Maybe Mounted crossbowmen – Moors used crossbows in large numbers as an infantry weapon, and used them a lot on horseback as well (although more for hunting than war). Since their unit selection is rather slim, this could be a nice addition.

Infantry:
1. Crossbow milita – Every one in ten Granadan peasant had to serve in time of need and they were armed almost exclusively with crossbows.
2. Urban milita – pike armed milita, however should be better than typical urban militia unit in RTW (which are basically next to useless in a battle). These guys knew how to fight. Rank and file infantry
3. Maghribi marine – a merc unit see Mamluks
4. N. African volunteer (Ghazi) – religiuos volunteers, lightly armed but fanatical. Light infantry (fast moving), leather daraqa shield, spear, sword, helmet wrapped in turban, scarf over face, leather armour.
5. Javelin skirmishers – possible, not sure if necessary
6. Some kind of firearm unit, perhaps similar to Mamluks' NorthAfrican Gunner.
7. In mid to late 16th century, instead of crossbows, militia units would be using firearms as well. So an additional Arquebus militia unit in 16th century.

Celtic_Winter

01-06-2005, 17:33

Ok so I am needing some help with the knight orders.
I know there is a research thread for it, but I would just feel more comfortable if I get some help with it.
I have been working on the units for the factions of Italy,Poland,Venice and I have used a lot of the information that Yggdrasill has provided. Thank you it was helpful. Now, I have mainly been working on the early tech tree for this factions, covering the late middle ages.
What excactly did the knight orders use in their armies? I am sure lots of knights, but what was their general infantry...things like this i need.

Yggdrasill

01-07-2005, 00:26

Sorry have no info on those. Just two comments.
1. When you work on the Order of the Dragon unit list, make sure you include region specific wallachian units (light and heavy cav). Those are also going to be available as mercs for Ottomans and Hungarians.

2. Make sure you include a lot of Italian units for the Pope. I think the papal armies were much more similar to contemporery Italian armies than the armies of the Teutonic order, or the Hospitallers.

Saranalos

01-07-2005, 22:05

I have a question Celtic_Winter since I think you are in charge of the units. is the list okay for me to start working on the units stats or is it just ideas? I can start writing the export_descr_unit.txt file if it is okay? ~:) ~:) ~:)

The Blind King of Bohemia

01-07-2005, 22:28

For the Teutonic Order the main army compositions would be as follows:

The Knights: Who would act as Heavy cavalry but would often dismount to form a solid Heavy infantry when fighting the baltic tribes in swamps, forests etc where Heavy Cavalry would be unsuitable. Yet sometimes rash cavalry actions did prove costly, see Grunwald in 1410 when the Grandmaster launched a cavalry charge which resulted i his death and loss of iover 200 Knights.

The sergeants: Lower than the Knights but could act as medium cavalry and good infantry as spear or sword capacity

Tribal contingents: Especially in campaigns against various rebellions such the Osel island rebellion and insurrections after the Durben disaster and the Lake peipus campaign. They would be used as light infantry with the smaller cavalry elements being used for scouting and skirmish's. Main araes were Estonia and Livonia but other places were no doubt used.

Mercenaries: Especially for the archers and crossbows. Thousands of crossbows would be employed from italy. Other types such as some longbowmen were seen in a small number during the early 15th century during lulls in the Hundred Years War. They could have seen action at Tannenberg in 1410.

Guest Crusaders: Many Princes and kings gained experience during the various Teutonic Crusades against Lithuania such as Henry IV, Jean Bouciquat and John the Blind King of Bohemia who helped with small yet resourceful and sometimes vital military contingents.

Also although holding a kind of autonomy, the Sword Brethren(another smaller military order) whose numbers never recovered after losing 2/3 of their number at Saule river in 1236 would often join the Teutonic order in battle such as at Lake Peipus where many fought under the Bishop of Tartu and most were later assimilated into the Order.

Also various settled Germans and some danes would have seen action either as a militia or cavalry such as in Livonian Feudal Cavalry(although some tribal elements would have been present in this area also)

Silver Rusher

01-07-2005, 23:06

Leading up to the Pike and Shot era of warfare, due to the high cost of proper professional soldiers, many nations used a lot of mercenaries in their armies. It was not surprising to see an army of more than 50% mercenary build.

Some mercenaries:

Genoese Crossbowmen:
Probably the most popular mercenary unit of the time, the Genoese where probably the finest crossbowmen available. They were used largely by France in the Hundred Years War as many crusaders and other european factions.

Condotierri:
The most feared mercenaries in Northern Italy, they did not spread out into the service of other nations but instead laid a helping hand in the contant disputes in the rivalries between the Italian duchies. They were very much elite troops to be mercenaries, which was why they were so popular.

Neapolitan infantry:
I've seen the model and skin for these done and I think it would be good if they were made available as mercs.

And many other rebel specific units would probably be good, gotta sleep now, post more tomorrow.

Celtic_Winter

01-07-2005, 23:25

Alright.
Thanks Blind king! that was helpful.
Saranalos, Sure if you know what you are doing, get working on it ~;)
And silver rusher, Yeah, I originally planned for the Neapolitanian infantry to be mercenary, since Naples wasn´t added to the game, I thought it would be necesary to add atleast one Southern Italy unit.

Saranalos

01-08-2005, 01:49

Right I will :charge:. Although I will not be able to change what faction they belong to yet as that wont allow me to check if the changes I have made worked~:(.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-08-2005, 05:05

Sounds good guys, I unfortunately will be getting more busy, because of finals and may not be able to continue much research until near the end of the month, but I can continue with my normal posting and such, just research time may be limited.

Silver Rusher

01-08-2005, 09:46

Some more mercs:

Tartar Horse Archers:
At Tamerlane's death the Golden Horde, after effectively rising out of the grave, fell into shreds completely once again. Had Tamerlane had an heir, the Golden Horde could even still be around today. This left lots of soldiers out of work, who spent most of their time travelling around and looking for new masters to serve.

Indian Infantry:
Indians have always been based around infantry, a few cavalry and elephants in their armies. But as the mongols came along infantry just seemed to be useless for them. So then they went off to travel around the area, scarcely going past Persia (which is the region where they will be available) looking to be mercenaries for whoever saught to hire them.

Indian Elephants:
I thought it would be nice to have a tiny few elephants in this game, just as incredibly rare mercenaries only available from one province, Persia. Most of the description from above goes for this too.

Yggdrasill

01-08-2005, 21:44

My Venetian unit list

1. Mounted crossbowmen
2. Mounted hand-gunners, later also Mounted Arquebusiers
3. Stradioti light cav *
4. Utili Man-at-arms (lighter version,no horse armour*
5. Elmetti Man-at-arms (manatarms with horse bard)*
6. Cavalleria Leggeria - mid 16th century Venetian attempt at a demi-lancer type cost-effective cav*

1. Militia crossbowmen - militia type unit
2. Urban arbalesters - we could have a version of these with pavise shields
3. Urban militia - very good medium infantry
4. Marine - a very effective crossbowmen, an elite (optional)*
5. Hand-gunners, later Italian arquebusiers also available
6. Venetian infantry - the unit God is working on *
7. Italian heavy infantry - armed with a staff weapon
8. Cretan archers - they were still around beleive it or not *
9. Militia Pikes - a mid 16th century attempt at modern infantry unit, not as effective as foreign types *

The units marked with a * are Venatian only, exclusive. Other should be made available to the Italians faction also.

Saranalos

01-09-2005, 02:43

Just two questions will I mark Gunpowder units as archers? And what about siege units later on in the game will there be cannons? :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

Uesugi Kenshin

01-09-2005, 04:52

I like the idea of allowing elephants to be used only in small amounts as mercs. I think if we have gunpowder sieges we need cannon.... My .00001 cents.

Celtic_Winter

01-09-2005, 06:26

Yes. Cannons will obviously be necesary in the game. I had posted some information on them in this thread I believe.

Saranalos

01-11-2005, 02:23

Now there is a problem with me editing the units before the model is made firstly archers would have to be placed over other archers and that would not work as we may have more or less archers than there already is. So I think that when the 3d unit is done you could e-mail it to me at saranalos@hotmail.com?

~:(~:(

:no: :no: :no: :embarassed:

GodsPetMonkey

01-11-2005, 11:39

What we really need is to start compiling lists of units that WILL be in the game and organising them by faction (and maybe era).

Theres alot of units in this thread, and we can only have 300 in the game, so we should start sorting through it.

Yggdrasill

01-11-2005, 21:48

Well 4 factions are more or less already compiled (Moors, Mamluks, Ottomans and Venetians). I'm perfectly happy with them as they are, I'm only considering perhaps adding one unit for the Venetians (but I'm not really sure). Soon Milan and Hungarians will be done too, and I hope by the end of this month so will the English, HRE and the French. For my part at least.

And yes, I agree, moding unit stats until they're done in 3d is a bit premature. In any case it seems quite simple to do once the models and unit lists are done. I've dabbled with it myself, but it seems far more prudent not to do it at this point in time. What we need to do unit stat-wise now would be to try and balance the stats on paper. In other words, agree on armour-shield-charge-melee values, and for that we need to decide on how to handle the military revolution. Only when we know that, and when we agree amongst ourselves what values to give to certain units, and once unit lists for at least a dozen factions are done and agreed upon, then we can say : OK saranalos is going to do the english, ygg the moors, somebody else... well you get the point.

Celtic_Winter

01-11-2005, 22:23

Wait a minute...Milan was added? ~:confused: where the Italians removed?

Yggdrasill

01-11-2005, 23:13

Saranalos

01-12-2005, 01:31

Well what I could do is make a list of what the units stats will be and spend time balancing them out? I could pretty much do this from the list of units on these pages and set them out something like this

Venetian Pikemen/ attack 7/ defense 4/ cost 500 etc etc...

If you think this is a good idea I'll start right on it. :book: :book:

Celtic_Winter

01-12-2005, 04:00

I think that it's just a 'cosmetic' change. It makes more sense since there is no 'Italian' faction in the time period. This way we get three city states (Pope, Venice, Milan). Barring Florence, and Naples (but as I know they were under the Spanish rule for most of the period), these are the major players in Italy, so i think it's a change for the better. Definetely a plus in my book.
Oh I agree with this too. I never heard of Florence being under Spanish rule, but who knows. I know that Naples was under Aragonese rule, I have seen the Aragonese castle in Naples and Pulia. Outstanding.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-12-2005, 04:30

I think what matters is who was controlling who around the starting date, if the spanish were controlling one during the first 50 years or so after 1402 then the spanish get those provinces, because we will be changing history when playing anyway so we might as well not add factions that gained independance far after the start date.

Saranalos

01-13-2005, 19:08

Yggdrasill

01-13-2005, 21:30

Oh you were waiting for me to answer? I thought it was a rhetorical question

Yeah but wait just a few days more. Most of this work will revolve around eastern-western difference in unit design, also 15th-16th century tech advances. I hope to post three more factions by Sunday, and we'll have to work out something with the military revolution. I've thought of a few solutions and will present them to Silver to see what he has to say. Then I'll post stats for a few units just to act as a general guideline - and according to that frame we'll model the rest. This is so we get an approximate ratio in unit quality. You can start working on the Venetians if you have some energy to burn...

Silver Rusher

01-13-2005, 21:34

Well, the Milanese are kind of a combination of Genoa and Milan. The faction is being called the "Italians" as a temporary name, to avoid confusion, but may be changed to either Genoa or Milan.

Ignoramus

01-14-2005, 09:14

Have you thought about German Landsknechts? They have Halberds. Like Swiss Pikemen.

Yggdrasill

01-14-2005, 09:58

Sure the Landesknechts are a vital unit (actually several)for the Hre and available as mercs for France (maybeothers as well, have to check that)

Yggdrasill

01-15-2005, 19:52

England

1. Royal Guard (early bodyguard unit)
2. Gentleman Pensioners (late guard) or Household Cavalry
3. Man-at-arms
4. Mounted sargeant
5.Demi-lancer, two types, one with a lance, the other with a pistol
6. Border Reiver, also two types, one with a crossbow and sword, the other with a pistol

1. Light Billman
2. Heavy Billman
3. Yeoman archer
4. Longbow archer (a more heavily armoured longbow unit, don't really know how to name it, so if you have suggestions...)
5. Tudor Longbowman - a 16th century longbow unit
6. Arquebusier
7. Dismounted man-arms - England was the only country that succeeded in convincing its heavy cav that sometimes it's better to fight on foot
8. Crossbowman
9. Tudor pike
10. Tudor guard
11. Levy foot

Kurtisb

01-15-2005, 20:48

Weren't Men-at-Arms peasants (free-men, not serfs) with issued equipment, and training?

Correct me if I'm wrong. :book:

-Kurts

The Blind King of Bohemia

01-15-2005, 22:59

The Border horse would have used the Longbow not the crossbow in battle, many being very handy with the weapon. Also the english had in there armies Sprinkcler men, armed with a weapon like a spear but at the top a spiked ball, these men saw action in france under Thomas Cavendish's contingent during henry viii campaigns

Uesugi Kenshin

01-16-2005, 04:54

The French used a lot of Foot Knights at Agincourt, I do not know if it was just a fluke, but you may want to put in dismounted units in the french list when you get to it.

Yggdrasill

01-16-2005, 14:21

Men-at-arms was a generic term for all armoured riders, including both the knight, their squires and asorted mercenary soldiers. It was commonly used in 15th and later periods as the chivalry and knighthood lost prestige, many knights, at least in England preferring the role of gentry rather than warring (not that I blame them), leaving the fighting to less noble soldiers. Another reason for this was that nobles (knights) would demand higher wages than commoners. How the term was widespread, is evidenced by the fact that a french equvalent, hommes d'armes, by early 16th century transformed into gandarmes, which by then denoted an armoured rider from the royal Compaignes d'Ordonnace, made up in large part from nobility. Today it is the name of the french police force.

I'm waiting for a book on Henry VIII's army, should arrive any day now. If it is necessary, I'll revise the list then. However, the Tudor guard unit, as I imagined them would have some sort of staff weapon, probably a halebard or a pole-axe, but that sprinkler thing could work as well. I still have to see about that.

I know that the English Border reiver used longbows more often than crossbows but there are two things to consider here. Firstly, longbows couldn't be fired from horseback at least not very well, and in RTW it is impossible to dismount them. If we enable horseback firing, it would simply make them too powerful (reivers were good light cav, but they were no tatar horse archers), not to mention unrealistic. Secondly, Scots also used Reivers, however armed mostly with crossbows. So this one unit would fit both roles. Sadly this I think is compromise that is necessary to make. Also, crossbows remained in service longer than longbows as far as reivers were concerned.

The Blind King of Bohemia

01-16-2005, 15:52

I wasn't saying give them a longbow, of course they couldn't fire a longbow moving on horseback but they wouldn't have used a crossbow either, except maybe a smaller one for hunting purposes. The borderer used the Longbow as an essential weapon in constant family and sometimes national warfare.
They would mostly be armed a with a lance, buckler shield, sword and later pistol mainly the "Dagg" a heavy single shot, wheel lock pistol which was seen in the battle of solway moss in 1542 when 3,000 border horse fired shots into the poorly laid out scottish forces numbering some 15,000 and there speed captured a number of nobles and most of the scots artillery train.

The dismounted borderer would sometimes be armed with the Jeddart staff, a weapon some 4 feet, with a long cutting edge with a wicked spike for piercing.

Try getting the Border Reivers by Osprey which is a tremedous source of info.

Yggdrasill

01-16-2005, 19:38

Actually I have it based my info mostly on it funny isn't it? ~D

Well, I spent a long time thinking about whether to give em a lance or a crossbow (even toyed with the idea of adding a third border reiver with a lance), finally decided on a crossbow for the reasons mentioned above but also because I think that light cav without some kind of missile weapon is next to useless, and these guys were far from useless. Which is not to say that a lance armed reiver wouldn't be fun also. The gun version is in anyway. I just don't see a longbow armed rider viable in RTW engine with no dismount option, shame really that CA didn't include one after all they had it in MTW. Crossbow wasn't a universal weapon, lance was, so we might decide on it eventually, nothing is written in stone yet. But crossbows were used, smaller ones ofcourse.

Speiz_Bankurt

01-21-2005, 06:51

Hi guys!

I noticed the discussions on hussars before. May I just add that the word hussar was first used or at least documented in written form in Hungary in the late 1400's! They were usually Serbian mercs/border guards. The word Cegorah used before which was Rac is actually a Hungarian word meaning serbian. So I reckon you might as well call them serbian hussars. Also Rac wasn't a nice word, it should not be in the game because it might offend serbians.
Hussars became very popular in Hungary by 1500 and I reckon everything else Cegorah said is pretty much accurate.
The final thing I wanted to add was that Hungarian Hussars were basicaly just medium/light cav, their equipment wasn't that special but what did make them special and almost an elite unit was their skill and experience. They slightly varied per region, more armoured in some areas and lighter in others. Some had bow and arrow too. It probably depended on the type of terrain they usually fought on. I don't know if this is useful, maybe you can find a way to incorporate it into your mod.

Cheers

Uesugi Kenshin

01-22-2005, 04:42

Don't know if we had this info somewhere before, but thanks it always helps to have it all in one spot. Much easier to find and read.
Thanks

cegorach

01-22-2005, 15:18

Hi guys!

I noticed the discussions on hussars before.
Cheers

So what do you think about this

http://img108.exs.cx/img108/8350/wingedgussarcomradreview8vu.jpg

Regards Cegorach ~D

P.S. I have implemented some changes to the MTW testing full release using some info provided by you ~:cheers:

Uesugi Kenshin

01-23-2005, 05:11

Wow. I would love to see them in a unit, had no idea they wore those feather things and jaguar capes. I also don't know very much about hussars but I never pictured that.

Saranalos

01-23-2005, 05:19

That Hussar looks great but im not sure about the lepoard skin cloak...

Yggdrasill

01-23-2005, 21:02

I just wanted to say that even though I haven't posted any new unit lists in quite some time, be sure that I'm still on it, and it now seems that I may be able to collect enough data for all factions. :book:

Right now I'm a little too busy with my exams, and also I'd like to scout other forums, notaby Pike/Shot, and see what they have as it may give me some ideas. Maybe I can even talk them inot sharing some models with us, although that is a not very likely.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-24-2005, 04:33

I am not sure we should accept them even if they offered. This mod should look ands feel unique. Unless we cannot find modellers and godspetmonkey dies of a stroke or wins the lottery and bugs out we need our own models, with their own distinct flavor and feel. Having our own models would also give our mod a uniform feel, where every unit is made with at least a similar style.

Yggdrasill

01-24-2005, 09:44

The 16th century units are in large part the same for both our mods. You can't invent unique uinits just for the sake of it - for example, both we and they are going to have the Landesknechts (pikemen, arquebusiers, doppelsodners, halebardiers). So why not share and help each other out, they can model two of tohose, and we can model the other two. It would only concern units which are already common to both our mods.

Speiz_Bankurt

01-26-2005, 03:58

Cegorach, that Polish hussar looks great. I saw it before at the P&M thread.

The leopard skin is completely realistic. Hungarians used them too. The thing is though that only the richer hussars could afford expensive exotic animal skins. But I think they used many other animal skins too!

I don't see why you couldn't accept this unit in this mod. Why bother remaking it if in the end it is going to look practically the same. And surely, if your two mods overlap in time and place, you will include hussars too!

Uesugi Kenshin

01-26-2005, 04:27

If most of the people on the mod want to share models with pike and shot and they want to as well I am not going to try and stop or disrupt it, but I feel strongly that we should make our mod look unique. By using our own unit models and interface. I do not think it would help us to have our mod look almost exactly the same as pike and shot, if we make our own units we can make them look different.

Yggdrasill

01-26-2005, 09:11

We're talking about 200+ units. I've skimmed through their unit selection and have done about 80% of our own unit lists, and as far as I can see, there are about 20, 30 units at most that overlap. That's not that many, but it would certainly help godspetmonkey. No need to worry about our mod's unique feel...

Ignoramus

01-26-2005, 09:21

I can find some unit dedign on google, just pm a list, and I'll find out as much as I can

Uesugi Kenshin

01-26-2005, 18:33

I think Godspetmonkey should decide if it is intended to alleve some of the work and pressure. But I still think we should have a unique mod in every way possible.

Yggdrasill

01-28-2005, 09:14

Burgundy units

1. Duke's Guard (Household Cavalry)
2. Knights - heavy cavalry that the game starts with
3. Compaignes d'ordonnance men-at-arms - In 1472 these units were created. Heavily armoured knights riding barded horses.
4. Coustillier - lightly armoured horseman
5. Mounted crossbowman,
6. Mounted Arquebusier

1. Flemish Pikeman - after Swiss, the best 15th century infantry in Western Europe
2. Crossbowmen, Arbalesters
3. Handgunners
4. Arquebusiers, Musketeers
5. Archer
6. Mounted Archer - yes they had horses but they never used them in combat, nor were they trained to fight on horseback, it was just to increase mobility. BAsically they will be elite archer unit, capable to handle themselves well in a close combat
7. Pikeman - just an ordinary pikeman unit, no or very little armour, modest status
8. Town militia - lightly armoured spearman, shield and sword

GodsPetMonkey

01-28-2005, 13:20

I think Godspetmonkey should decide if it is intended to alleve some of the work and pressure. But I still think we should have a unique mod in every way possible.

To be honest its a big ask of me to produce all the units in the game.
Working at full pace, it takes me 10 hours total to create a new unit (inc. modelling, texture, testing), which normally means 2 days per unit, and thats a simple unit (I spent 3 days alone on the texture for the gothic armour). At that rate, 200 units will take me 400 days, and I only have so much time now due to it being holidays, in a few weeks time I'm back off to uni, so poof, I'd then be lucky to get 2 hours a day to work on models.

It is offset by the fact that as I complete more and more units, I have more and more material to recycle, taking some texture from one skin, and making some quick modifications is much faster then doing it from scratch.

Though, if we are to use several artists work, I think it should be work created for this mod, rather then using stuff for someone else, uniqueness is important, whats more, it means I can easily share my own working material (like textures, anyone like 3-5Mb psd files?) with out it becoming common in several mods. Graphics contribute greatly to a mods feel, and though we overlap somewhat with P&M, I'd much prefer the mods to feel different.

And to anyone who wants to learn 3DS Max and photoshop texturing, trust me, its easier then it looks! Even if you only work on the simpler units, its work I don't have to do, and I can easily give some pointers as well was templates and work material. Hell, it took me less then a month to learn 3DS Max using just free guides and google, and most of the crap I learnt doesn't even matter for RTW models, at the start of this month I couldn't texture in photoshop for crap (though I am good at pointing small scale figurines) but now I taught myself how to use a small set of tools to create good looking skins.

Yggdrasill

01-28-2005, 16:25

To be honest its a big ask of me to produce all the units in the game.
Working at full pace, it takes me 10 hours total to create a new unit (inc. modelling, texture, testing), which normally means 2 days per unit, and thats a simple unit (I spent 3 days alone on the texture for the gothic armour). At that rate, 200 units will take me 400 days, and I only have so much time now due to it being holidays, in a few weeks time I'm back off to uni, so poof, I'd then be lucky to get 2 hours a day to work on models.

It is offset by the fact that as I complete more and more units, I have more and more material to recycle, taking some texture from one skin, and making some quick modifications is much faster then doing it from scratch.

Though, if we are to use several artists work, I think it should be work created for this mod, rather then using stuff for someone else, uniqueness is important, whats more, it means I can easily share my own working material (like textures, anyone like 3-5Mb psd files?) with out it becoming common in several mods. Graphics contribute greatly to a mods feel, and though we overlap somewhat with P&M, I'd much prefer the mods to feel different.

And to anyone who wants to learn 3DS Max and photoshop texturing, trust me, its easier then it looks! Even if you only work on the simpler units, its work I don't have to do, and I can easily give some pointers as well was templates and work material. Hell, it took me less then a month to learn 3DS Max using just free guides and google, and most of the crap I learnt doesn't even matter for RTW models, at the start of this month I couldn't texture in photoshop for crap (though I am good at pointing small scale figurines) but now I taught myself how to use a small set of tools to create good looking skins.

I'm fully aware of that and right now it's my biggest concern. I'm planning unit lists accordingly. Even though it must seem that units are completely different, they actually are not, and many units are common for various factions, In fact, I think that no Burgundian unit other than the mounted archer is unique (and even that will be very similar to the longbow unit you already modelled, just with a different helm). For example, the Compaignes d'Ordonnaces and Coustilliers are available for France also. The first unit is nothing more than a glorified man-at-arms (the gothic plate you made with minimal changes), with additional horse-armour and a different helm. The second unit is basically a Mounted sargeant, lighter cav unit, available also for the English, Habsburgs etc. Then with minimal changes to that unit, you can make the mounted crossbowman. Flemish Pikeman will be very similar to the picture of light billman I sent you - so again two units for the price of one. And so it goes...
Many units are the same just with different names and minimal diferences, I use that as a trick to add additional historical feel to the game.
I don't know how many units we'll need in the end, but the max number is 300. So going by that, I imagine that maybe every third unit is completely new and original, everything else is modification, to a greater or lesser extent.
But I am concerned about the amount of work ahead of us.
I think it would be a good idea to again ask at the official forum for some 2d/3d artist to help us. There a lot of people at the modding subforums with at least the basic knowledge of modeling and texturing, and some are bound to be interesed. Uesugi, since you're the point man now, maybe you could drop a post at the official modding subforum asking for help?
As for sharing models, it seems nobody likes my idea very much :embarassed: so I'll just shut up. Just for the record, units are bound to be the same to an extent. It depends what picture they are using as a source for their models, but a Landsknecht is a Landsknecht, no matter how you look at it. You can't invent an unit just for the sake of being unique. Even if you get a finished model, you can make various minor changes, tweaks and such to make it unique. Certainly easier than doing it from scratch yourself.
I really hope someone might decide to take up graphics developement and help GodsPetMonkey (if it really is that easy, then we should at least try). For my part, I promised to try and do some animation work, and I'm sticking to that promise - as soon as I clear up my schedule a bit.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 04:26

Right, I will plead with the masses. Anyone wanna come watch?

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 04:34

Me! no really we do need more modellers its a bit much to heap it all on godspetmonkey so everyone had best start recruiting. ~:) :charge:

GodsPetMonkey

01-29-2005, 04:46

In truth I do have a friend who is damn handy with 3DS Max, and he offered to help if I needed any, but sadly, he is in the middle of moving and starting a new job, so its a bit much of me to ask him to start cranking stuff out at this point in time.

And I have to teach him how to use photoshop ~D

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 04:53

I would try to learn 3dsmax 7 but unfortunately I am
A: Not rich
B: Not old enough to have a job that will pay for 3dsmax
C: Probably not going to get an internet connection fast enough to download the tutorials, and too busy at the moment. :book: :book:

Although I have photoshop I am not very good at it.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 04:53

I understand, maybe when we are making CTW 2.0 the modding continues we can get him to help. If anyone survives this mod. Oh well just gotta hope someone in the general modding forum volunteers.

GodsPetMonkey

01-29-2005, 04:56

~:handball:

You never know.

On a semi-related note, Silver had threads going at a few of the other RTW sites, perhaps you should post an update in them or something?

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 04:57

or put up BIG SIGNS everywhere

also I can update the rtw heaven thread if you want.

GodsPetMonkey

01-29-2005, 05:03

I don't see why not ~:cool:

Silver would often repost the latest images (of both units and camp map), so it might be a good idea to include those, it shows the mod is moving along, and I would guess that a part time modeller would be wore willing to work on something that isn't going to die in a few weeks time.

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 05:07

I will update the RTW heaven thread then I will also take some pictures from citadeltotalwar@hotmail.com and post them with it when there is new pics if that is okay.

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 05:13

Sure.

BTW Saranalos as soon as I can edit SR's posts here I will add your name, what job do you have exactly? You seem to help out with everything that you can but I do not know what to put down....

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 05:17

Where exactly did he have the other threads?

Godspetmonkey where did you learn to model?

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 05:18

Just put me down as an everythingist ~D ~D

I joined the team as a unit scripter but since there has been no real demand for scripting at the moment I am helping out with everything I can I will update the threads in forums that I know of but I will also update other threads as well if you find one. ~D ~D

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 05:28

K I will use that exact word and everything. Guess now that I have something to do for the mod I will have to do most of the stuff on weekends. Because my family hogs the net connected computer and I live in the boonies without broadband I have only one hour gauranteed on week days. But weekends I can stay up later and get more time.

Saranalos

01-29-2005, 05:36

Good ~:) I am updating one of the threads as I type it has fallen way behind and needs to be bumped up a bit. ~:)

You should also see about being able to edit the Citadel Total war posts. ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Uesugi Kenshin

01-29-2005, 05:43

I posted a request to Tosa about that in the watchtower. SR had those sorts of powers I believe and I need them if we are going to avoid a lot of confusion....

GodsPetMonkey

01-29-2005, 05:52

Where exactly did he have the other threads?

Godspetmonkey where did you learn to model?

100% self taught. IMHO all those courses and books are junk (and you have to pay for them). Theres nothing you cant learn by just sitting there and trying things out!

I just started playing about (I had some prior experiance in lightwave, but it was little more then making boxes and moving points (aka vertices)).

After about a week, I knew my way arround well enough to create things and do a good deal of editing, then I just learnt from small tutorials everything else.

Really, to model for RTW all you need to know is how to edit meshes/polys and UVW map, thats pretty much it for simpler units (although if you know how to, and want to, you can create units from scratch, but it takes alot more time, and really, doesn't give that much of an improvement anyway, theres only so much you can put into a low poly model, and humans are all shaped like each other).

The real killer is texturing IMHO, I spend alot more time makeing nice textures then models, as with

Saranalos

01-31-2005, 01:15

The map editor coming out with the patch could just be for custom battles and not the campaign map but if it is only for custom battles it could be very usefull for historical battles? ~:)

Uesugi Kenshin

01-31-2005, 02:44

True, that would be great.

BTW nobody is volunteering to join as a modeller yet. My thread in the general mods section has gone unanswered.

Saranalos

02-04-2005, 21:24

The unit limit was raised it in the 1.2 patch to 500, but I'm not sure about the models limit... it may have been kept in order to keep the tex memory requirements under control

Look above and smile ~:) :balloon2: ~:) ~:)

A dev posted this so it should be true. ~:) ~:) ~:)

but unfortunately

The other limits (200 provinces, 255 unit models, 20 landmasses) have been left in place, and it's unlikely that there will be another patch which will change those. Oh well...

Ignoramus

02-04-2005, 22:16

Do that mean we will need the patch to download Citadel?

Uesugi Kenshin

02-05-2005, 04:48

Most likely, the patch has many improvements, including the much complained about friendly fire. CTW would probably end up being harder to make without the patch or worse. The patch is 56 mbs. so if you have a friend with boradband you may want him to dl it (if you have 56k like me).

Saranalos

02-05-2005, 05:01

Just leave the download overnight thats what I did. ~:) ~:)

Uesugi Kenshin

02-05-2005, 05:22

I am going over to their house anyway now, so I might as well wait a bit. Plus my family usually wakes up before me, because I stay up quite late and they might do something and on top of all that the comp sometimes chooses to restart itself when somebody is logging on or off.

Ignoramus

02-07-2005, 02:22

How about adding Norse Spearmen, Halberdiers, Pikemen, and Arquebusiers to the Danish units list?
I could provide info about equipment for N. Spearmen.

Yggdrasill

02-07-2005, 11:41

Changes to Ottomans:

1. Additional unit – Late Sipahy

Changes to Mamluks:

1. Additional Merc cav – Turcoman horse archers, Beduin cavalry
2. Additional unit – Town guard

Changes to Moors:

1. Ghulam Bodyguard – name change to Ma'lughun
2. Additional unit – Renegados (christian converts)
3. Armoured cav – name change to Moorish cavalry

France:

1. Knights
2. Gendarmes
3. Coustilliers
4. Chevaux-Legers
5. Two guard units, based on 1 and 2 for early and late periods
6. Mounted crossbowman, Mtd arquebusiers
7. Mtd sargeants

1. Town militia
2. Crossbowman, arbalesters
3. Arquebusiers, Musketeers
4. Scottish guard
5. Gascon infantry
6. Franc archer
7. Swiss and Landesknechts as mercs
8. French pike,
9. Sargeants
10. Merc unit – Genoese crossbowman

Burgundy (revised list):

1. Knight
2. Gendarmes
3. Coustilliers
4. Two guard units same as above
6. Mtd crossbowman, Mtd arquebusiers
7. Mtd sargeants

1. Flemish Pikeman - after Swiss, the best 15th century infantry in Western Europe
2. Crossbowmen, Arbalesters
3. Handgunners
4. Arquebusiers, Musketeers
5. Archer
6. Mounted Archer - yes they had horses but they never used them in combat, nor were they trained to fight on horseback, it was just to increase mobility. Basically they will be elite archer unit, capable of handling themselves well in a close combat
7. Pikeman - just an ordinary pikeman unit, no or very little armour, modest status
8. Town militia - lightly armoured spearman, shield and sword
9. Sargeants

Yggdrasill

02-07-2005, 11:50

Milan:

1. Condottieri Man-at-arms
2. Condotierri Heavy Man-at-arms
3. Household cavalry – guard unit
4. Merc units – stradiotti, Croatian light horse,
5. Mtd crossbowman, mtd arquebusiers, Italian light cavalry
6. Mtd sargeants

1. Milita crossbowman
2. Urban crossbowman
3. Hand-gunners, Italian arquebuisiers, Musketeers
4. Urban milita
5. Italian heavy infantry
6. Archers
7. Genoese crossbowman
8. Pikeman

same for Pope plus

Swiss Guard - elite swiss units

Uesugi Kenshin

02-08-2005, 04:29

Wow, you were busy. Looks good to me. The French could have an Irish merc unit, the Irish often helped the French against England and were most commonly mercs not regulars.

Yggdrasill

02-08-2005, 08:51

Probably but I plan to make a list of region specific units last, sort of like a 20th faction. Sometimes I add a specific merc unit if I remember it at the moment of writing, but I plan to take an atlas of Europe and Middle East and go region by region trying to think of all the specific units that were available as mercs.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-09-2005, 04:34

All rgiht I did not know that and that sounds like the most thourough method. Other than that it looks quite good. Keep up the good work.

massamuusi

02-11-2005, 13:06

I can do the research for Hakkapeliitta cavalry... if they're still in... ~:confused:

Just had a bit of a rough family life for some time, but everything is cleared up now and I'm once more available.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-12-2005, 02:04

Good thing that is cleared up. I do not know if they are in, I cannot remember hearing about them. What faction are they for?

massamuusi

02-15-2005, 10:30

Good thing that is cleared up. I do not know if they are in, I cannot remember hearing about them. What faction are they for?

The swedes. The Hakkapeliitta got their reputation in campaigns against germans, and their charges were feared.

Will post more later today-

Uesugi Kenshin

02-16-2005, 04:41

Ignoramus do you have a list of all the factions you have done unit lists for?

That would be re4ally helpful and make sure you have them backed up on your computer, this weekend I will start doing that on mine as well because I have vacation coming up and will have a lot of time to do that sort of work, even if it means staying up until 5 I will do it.

Hope the work is going well godspetmonkey, if you need extra info on anything I will be able to do a lot more work during vacation.

Ignoramus

02-16-2005, 04:44

For Citadel or Feudal?

Uesugi Kenshin

02-16-2005, 05:03

CTW, sorry bout that. Cleaning the kitchen took a bit longer than usual so I was unable to get on right at ten, I am going to sleep soon so if you have anymore questions post them or pm me, but do not expect an answer until around this time tomorrow.

Saranalos

02-16-2005, 19:51

I found out that dr_zaius_22 has 3ds max and he used to be on the team but unless something happened to him he has quit as his last post was around a month or two ago. Unfortunately people seem to be unintrested in our mod, I think this is because there are a lot of mods being created around the same time period. I am not going to quit unless the whole team falls apart so I will continue to help unless my computer blows up. ~:)

Uesugi Kenshin

02-17-2005, 04:29

I will try to pm him, we sure could use some more modellers. Hopefully if we keep on working and godspetmonkey keeps making great models someone who can model will become interested.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-19-2005, 04:41

Vacation has started, *Much Rejoicing*. So I will begin to search the subforum for unit lists, unless someone has the full lists already in one spot. I will then organize them and start checking off factions. This will mean many late nights, but heyt it is vacation that would happen anyway!

Yggdrasill

02-19-2005, 12:34

Great I was thinking how we need to have a list in one place. However be warned that this is still a work in progress - for example two days ago I had what I believed to be a definite list for Hungarians, then I did major changes and again thought I had a final draft, and today again I'm having second thoughts - that's why I haven't posted anything yet on them. Just yesterday I found a great resource on the web about the French and Italians, so minor changes can be expected there as well.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-20-2005, 04:22

Damn, I thought your post would say that you had a list in one place and I didn't need to do it. Oh well guess I get to start tonight......

That is all right if you have changes just post an updated list and I will be able to replace the one I have.

Uesugi Kenshin

02-20-2005, 05:09

Wow that did not take very long...

Next I will try to locate a faction list so we can know exactly who we need units for and who we will need to shuffle for 2 German states and so on...

If anybody would like the 13 page almost 5000 word lists I have them, but they are not organized other than chronologically and some of them are rough lists that do not say Burgundy gets: blah blah blah, but instead say: Janissary Heavies= blah blah blah Hussars= blah blah blah Cossacks= Blah Blah.
Once they are organized and/or somewhat polished we can make a new thread not for discussion but for storing the unit lists.

Yggdrasill

02-20-2005, 08:26

while you're at it could you tidy up the forum a bit, erase those old threads that no one is using. See if you can get a moderator status, seeing how you're the point man, plus 750 posts, shouldn't be a problem...

Uesugi Kenshin

02-21-2005, 04:30

Tosa was working on it but for some reason I could not edit Silver's progress posts, I will check if I can delete the old threads. See my name on the bottom?

two_Roses

02-24-2005, 15:58

The point of this thread, is the development of the units to appear in this MOD(to be updated regularly).
First I will start off by posting the units, that as of now, have been suggested by Silver Rusher:
(quick note:Everything from Janissary musketeers down was submited by Suleimen the magnificent)
English Longbowmen: Welsh Longbowmen available also.

Superior Longbowmen:
Have quite a lot more skill at firing than regular longbows, and are armoured so are quite good melee as well.

There is no difference between superior longbowmen and Welsh/English Longbowmen except in armour. Welsh longbowmen were sort after archers, the best in Europe at this point in time, English Longbowmen were virtually as good. And during the 14th C. Archers began to wear basic armour anyway, after Agincourt English and Welsh archers tended to wear light helmets and occasionally you see them with breast plates.

Gascon Lancers:
Special norman lancers which form the bodyguard of the early english royal family.

Only in a ceramonial role would they be most likely to have lances. They are heavily armoured out dated Norman Knights, on the battlefield they would carry maces, cavalry swords or even short pole axes.

Tudor Lancers:
In the Late Period the Tudors are the main family of England, and having lost all of their lands in France they can no longer produce Gascon Lancers.

Again a ceramonial role were they lancers. They wear highly impracticle battle armour, slowing them down, they would also tend to carry a close combat weapon like I mentioned for the previous unit. These units are highly vunerable to archers.

Billmen

Puissant Pikemen:
Armoured pikemen with much longer pikes, approx. 8 metres in total, only available to English, French, Burgundians, Swiss and some Italian factions.

Hobilars D'Ordannce:
French Hobilars

Chevaliers D'Ordannce:
Superior french knights, possibly the best in the world. Form the French and Burgundian bodyguard.

Heavily armoured out-dated knights, it is arguable that these units were not the best knights in the world, German and to some extent English armour had major advantages over French armour. Chevaliers D'ordance are bogged down by the weight of their old "heavy" armour, they are slow, mounted troops who have little purpose against modern knights.

French Musketeers:
Later in the game these men come out, lightly armoured, but with an incredible nack for firing muskets.

They are innaccurate as heck, they cant fire in rain or snow, they cant fire far but they do firghten basic infantry and mounted units.

Gothic Militia:
Holding halberds and wearing gothic armour generally means the perfect fighting force, as cavalry and armoured infantry alike go down in front of the mighty cleave.

Hmmm doesnt matter how artistic you want to be with you units, you wouldnt get Gothic armoured Knights fighting with halberds. It is an impracticle weapon for someone carrying armour, as your apponent can get in close and take advantage of weak points under you armpits. These Knights would of carried maces, pole axes, or swords.

Halberdiers

Scale Broadswords:
Good early on, but are soon outclassed by heavier broadswordsmen.

These are basically men at arms, there is no difference in training or weapon strenght. Later men at arms were better armoured.

Chain Broadswords:
Broadswordmen wearing chain mail. No further explanation needed.

Wow, we going for Richard the lionheart movie? Basically Ive never seen a men at arms unit (of this time period) wearing nothing but chain male, perhaps you should revise this to the thick padded and studded jackets that alot of English units wore. Topped off with a basic pot helmet. This unit could have some chain mail.

Plate Broadswords:
Similar to Gothic broadswords, only without the very special armour that they posess.

Basic "Knight" unit, plate armour was used more so by the French during this period, although Italian heavy armour still relied heavily upon plate armour but including some modernisations such as armpit stabbing deflectors.

Gothic Broadswords:
At the top of the broadsword class, these men carry heavy Gothic armour and large two handed swords with which they can slowly cut straight through enemy lines.

Same as the gothic halberds really, just refine your gothics to one unit type, or several with different close combat weapons.

Macemen:
Carrying maces, morning stars and flails makes attacking armoured troops a whole lot easier as there is no need to actually pierce the armour but the shock itself is enough to kill the man inside.

Hmmmm, why not just make a men at arms unit with these weapons and call them "men at arms"?

Forester Macemen:
With the training of wandering through forests with maces, they are very fearsome when used at the right time.

Hmmm very Dutch, Forester's were axemen with no armour, by the begining of the Tudor period they were soooooo outdated.

Partisaniers:
Fearsome weapons, known as partisans were developed by the Italians and Germans to be wielded by men in Gothic armour. They have three points, the two on the sides slanting outwards to chop cut down on the enemy and 'cleave' them, and the one in front provides as good protection against cavalry as any pike.

Hmmm again gothic/heavy knights but with pole axes......nothing really special about them.

Neapolitan Hussars:
In Naples, there is a national heritage for Feudal Knights, but now with the evolution of guns light cavalry are equally important. And that is when the Hussar comes in...

Balkanite Hussars:
Hussars from the Balkans and Poland are special in many ways, the fertile plains of Hungary, Wallachia and other areas field good horses and equally good light cavalrymen.

Very impracticle unit, in its early experimental days. I think this unit could afford to be left out as the Hussars were pretty much de-funked for the type of warfare that was still being waged.

Guard of the 1st Canton:
In the space between the Juras and the Alps is some very flat and fertile land, which actually produce excellent horsemen. Dismounted they will become Swiss Armoured Pikes, which are also very usefull depending on which terrain is being fought on.

Very lightly (if at all) armoured pikemen, they wear padded jackets and a light helmet.

Swiss Guard:
Do not be confused with the name, as these men are not actually Swiss, but instead form the bodyguards of the Pope. They are fearsome lancers on horse and devastating sergeants on foot.

Lances were outdated by this period and were mainly for show, we all imagine the Knight riding galiently towards his foe with lance in hand.....not the case, it is arguable that most battles of this period were fought off horse back anyway. Best to give them cavalry swords with a bollock dagger.

Alpine Foresters:
These are the hardy woodsmen of the Alps, using fear and surprise as their main weapons.

Same as the other foresters you mentioned, they are basically peasants with long axes.

Janissary Muskteers:
Armed with matchlock musket, sword has no armor. Good missile troops but shouldn't be committed to battle against pure schock troops but can hold their own against light infantry. Can't fire in the rain. Disciplined, good morale.

Well thats I would have to disagree with this strongly. They have no sword, perhaps a bollock dagger. They are innacurate missle troops and they have little or no training in self defence. At this period musketeers really only woar padding, .

Janissary Armoured Infantry:
Armed with wicked looking pole arms and shield, armouring flat ring chain mail, has a sword for close fighting. Good against cavalry and most infantry. Disciplined, excellent morale. Should not be pitted head to head against good quality spainish or swiss pikemen.

Janissary Archers:
Armed with a recurved bow, has a sword for close combat. Missiles good vs armour, high rate of fire (six shot a minute in real life, this makes 'em tire quick. draw wieght of bow is 150lbs). Extreme range of 500 yards. Can pierce though almost any armour with a spaure hit at 100 yards. Should be able to hit a man on horse back once every 4 shots at 280 yards. Good attack, weak defender.

Bring your ranges and fire times down abit, these units may be able to fire at that distance on a range, but when ur in battle and your hands are shaking, and you can hardly see, the ranges are braught down. This unit takes forever to reload too.

Azap ('bachelors') Muskets:
Armed with muskets and unarmoured. Many carry pole arms to rest their weapons on. They are well trained to use these and this gives them a great advantage when confronted by cavalry. They are volunteers and have good morale.

This unit is still innacurate, however they frighten mounted and foot troops. And this is where MTW becomes confused with Musketeers of the Cromwellian period, they are not good against any unit as they were men at arms, or peasants given a weapon and told how to use it. They would sooner run than be faced with mounted units, however the range of their weapons compensates for this.

Azap Macemen:
Has mace and shield. Good morale.

Sipahi:
Is armoured in mail and plate. Wields mace. His horse is lightly armoured reflecting the heat in which they were likely to operate. He wears a 'turban' helm with a mail aventail.

Elite Siege Troops:
Fully armoured in mail and splints. His shield is of iron and could probaly resist the attentions of early muskets. He weilds a fearsome battle-axe and slung at his side is a sword for close combat. His helmet is engraved and has a feather plume.

Why not just create a general men at arms unit in which you have basically described. I have read about certain units being trained/used to storm defenses, but these were taken from regular units with sergeants who could afford their own armour. The shield could not withstand a hit from a musket ball, and if by some fluke it did, the guys arm would be broken.

Ottoman Infantryman:
Armed with javilein and a sword, he also wields a small shield for close combat. He is armoured only in leathers as he comes from the peasent stock. He wears a simple iron helm.

Voynik Auxiliary:
Armed with pole axe, a straight western style sword, he has a 'balkans' stlye shield for use when weilding his pole axe. He wears a mail coat that extend to his knees and has a simple iron helmet with a aventail.

North African Marine:
Armed with a crossbow and short curved sword. He wears a mail shirt to his waist that is covered by his simple clothing. He has a small shield for close combat.

Yggdrasill

02-24-2005, 19:04

Well that was just the first draft. We are going a different direction with unit selection, faction by faction. You should direct your comments at the specific faction units that are found in this thread. It’s much more balanced.

Just a few comments... Lancers were not obsolete (yet), they were effective as hell, and the first ever real indication they are no longer superior to infantry (barring sporadic and extreme events like Agincourt) was at the Burgundian wars (around 1475). And still they retained their armor and horse bard well into the 16th century. Lances were dropped only in about 1550s, and at that point only by the lowly men-at-arms in favour of pistols, not of noble birth, and the nobility (like the French gendarmes) retained the lance until the turn of the century. It was during the Wars of Religion (1562-1598) that the pistol armed cuirassier proved superior to old fashioned lances (which by now discarded armor bards and reduced personal suit of arms to three quarters armor).
Also, the effectiveness of the longbow against a 15th century alwhite armor is often exaggerated. longbow could not pierce a suit of armor (not its stronger parts like the helmet and breastplate at least) at ranges over 50 yards. I actually saw a reenactment (on TV but I think that doesn’t disqualify it) of a longbow arrow failing to pierce a small 2 mm thick plate at just 10 yards. Archers firing in volleys (not firing at specific targets and not using full draw in order to keep the rhythm of the fire) at long range would not kill men-at-arms. They would wreck havoc among infantry billmen, other archers, crossbows and especially horses (which you don’t necessarily need to kill, only wound and they are no longer useful in a battle), but the full plate men-at-arms would weather it.
What spelled doom for the lances was a strong formation of disciplined pikemen that would stop them cold. Firearms as well, but only at ranges 30 yards and less. At this distance however, the longbow was dangerous as well. It was just difficult to train men to use it, thus firearms came to dominate.
Also, the French Gendarmes were the best heavy cavalry in the world. For a time at least. Until Pavia. They were better than the Italians due to their approach to war, do or die, better tha